Loading summary
Transcript220 lines
- [00:00]
A
This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. Most social media is a time drain, but LinkedIn, that's the one platform where the time you spend actually pays you back. Especially if you're hiring. Think of it like this. While you're running your business, LinkedIn is quietly out there playing recruiter on your behalf. You post a job super easy. You can even have LinkedIn help you write the description and suddenly it's in front of exactly the right people. Not just resumes in a stack, but actual qualified candidates with real data to help you pick the best. And because LinkedIn is where people actually show up to work on social media, you you're not fishing in the wrong pond. These are folks who want to be seen, want opportunities, and are open to making a move. That's why small businesses who use LinkedIn, say 72% of the time they're getting better quality candidates. Plus, you can let your network in on the search, slap the hashtag hiring frame on your profile pic, and suddenly your whole professional circle knows that you're looking Double the qualified candidates, zero extra effort. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com harbinger that's LinkedIn.com harbinger to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
- [00:58]
B
What can 160 years of experience teach you about the future? When it comes to protecting what matters, Pacific Life provides life insurance, retirement income and employee benefits for people and businesses building a more confident tomorrow. Strategies rooted in strength and backed by experience. Ask a financial professional how Pacific Life can help you today. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.
- [01:31]
A
Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Nicholas Pell. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays though, we do Skeptical Sunday where a rotating guest co host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic, such as fast fashion, the death industry, homeopathy, hypnosis, targeted advertising, and self help cults. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, and I always appreciate it when you do. I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. I'm sure most of you have heard of OnlyFans, the creator platform where you can put up videos of yourself cooking, doing fitness, or as the case happens to be most of the time engaging in some kind of pornographic or otherwise adult activity. I'm sure you've seen the headlines. Women quits her job, makes 100 grand a month on OnlyFans. And while you might have opinions on the morality of that, it's hard to argue with that sheer amount of cold, hard cash. But hey, there are also guys making a killing in podcasting. Most podcasters, however, are languishing on under a hundred bucks a month in fan support. So how similar is this seedy world of OnlyFans? Are people really making money selling their nudes online? What's the profile of a creator who's crushing it and who is just out there begging for a few bucks? Maybe most importantly, are there hidden costs of selling sex online? And is this empowerment or just digital exploitation? Here today to help me separate the naked truth from the dressed up hype is writer and researcher Nick Pell. So, Nick, how much are you dropping every month on OnlyFans?
- [03:32]
C
Precisely. $0.
- [03:34]
A
Really?
- [03:34]
C
Okay, yeah, I'm gonna stick to the facts here, but people should probably know that I'm a giant stick in the mud about this kind of thing, so expect me to be throwing ice water on your boner. And that's gonna be a recurring theme throughout the episode.
- [03:47]
A
That's fair enough. I try to be way less judgy about this stuff and I'll talk a little bit more about that later. But onlyfans of weird because look, I remember when it was first launched in 2016, I think it was. It wasn't supposed to be this self produced porn site really. It was for content creators. And most of the ones that I saw back then, I remember show fans being like, hey, I got an only fans. And it was like for cooking, you know, like, okay. And it was lifestyle or fitness stuff. It was not sex acts ranging from the mundane to the unusual. There were show fans that were like, I've got a cooking one, a fitness one, and then I remember a guy and A gal sent me theirs and I was like, oh, whoa, okay, so you're just like naked here? And he's like, yeah, that's what OnlyFans is for. And I was like, no, it's my friends cook on here. My friend's a doctor. He is an only fans. And then this nurse who's a show fan was like, I'm paying my way through nursing school and I ain't cooking. And she showed me hers. And I was like, I get it. Okay? They take all comers. No pun intended. So basically, you could show people things on OnlyFans a few years ago without shielding the phone screen from your kids. So what happened?
- [04:51]
C
What happened, as far as I can tell, is what happened to a lot of facets of American life. COVID lockdowns. Okay, during the COVID lockdowns, there was a massive influx of creators, possibly due to a need for money, but also maybe just a need for human connection.
- [05:08]
A
Is that what they're selling on OnlyFans? Human connection?
- [05:11]
C
Well, we need to highlight right up front that OnlyFans isn't just porn. I mean, it's certainly that, but it has elements of social media about it. You're not really signing up for just the naked pictures as such. You're signing up because you want to be able to DM your favorite E girl and have conversations with her, whether they're mundane, quotidian type stuff or something racier.
- [05:32]
A
Do people really have that much direct access to the creators? I mean, I answer my email and DMs, but it takes me months and most creators don't do that. I'm certainly not charging for it. Maybe I should be.
- [05:42]
C
It depends on the creator. It's definitely a feature some of them sell. OnlyFans creators make money from subscriptions, tips and pay per views. They might have a subscription that allows you to message them in theory.
- [05:55]
A
What do you mean, message them in theory?
- [05:57]
C
I'm extremely skeptical about how many of these women are actually fielding thousands of DMS a day from thirsty dudes. Chances are a lot better that they've out source this to the Philippines or Indonesia or somewhere similar, and someone is frantically trying to coax ChatGPT to give sexualized answers to a DM.
- [06:18]
A
Are there any examples of this kind of scam happening? And I say scam because if you're not talking to the creator, but it says that you're talking to the creator and you're paying to talk to the creator, that's fraudulent.
- [06:28]
C
But okay, yes, there's tons of this and we're going to get into that in detail later.
- [06:34]
A
I guess I really shouldn't be surprised by any of this. This stuff all kind of goes hand in hand. I'm not saying that people who produce or engage in adult entertainment are scammers, but for some reason, when you have the adult industry, you also have like fake dick pills and you also have, you know, just like we're going to charge your credit card using a shady merchant that's overseas. And because I guess because some of its gray area of the law and they're like, oh, you'll put up with this area that isn't accepted by everyone. What else are you going to sort of let us get away with? And it's not everybody and it's not every part of the industry. But I just couldn't help but notice that a lot of this stuff seems to go hand in hand. And I think a lot of it is also they know someone's not going to call their credit card company and be like, I was scammed. I thought I was talking to this starlet on OnlyFans and it turns out I was talking to a computer. I want my money back. Because you're going to be embarrassed.
- [07:24]
C
Yeah, I mean, the people in porn aren't married, if you can believe that.
- [07:30]
A
Yeah, I can. Based on some of the porn I've seen. I mean, that my friends have told me about. You know, so people who are married don't have sex like this or at all sometimes. How I'm going to just leave that there.
- [07:42]
C
Speak for yourself.
- [07:46]
A
Oh, there's nothing I can say right now to dig myself out of this hole. How prevalent is OnlyFans? How many people are using it?
- [07:51]
C
In August 2024, it had 190 million active users, which is important because of a guy signed up for OnlyFans once upon a time. That doesn't mean he's actively engaged in it.
- [08:03]
A
I see how many women are on it. And by the way, I'm aware that women pay for OnlyFans and men appear on it, but for the sake of simplicity, we're just going to refer to the women being on OnlyFans and the guys being the buyers because I'm going to guess like 90 plus percent of it is that you're pretty close.
- [08:19]
C
Actually, it's about 84% of the creators are women and about 79% of the customers are men.
- [08:25]
A
Huh.
- [08:26]
C
It's gets pretty crazy when you start running the numbers of just how many people are on Only Fans. It's been estimated that about 2% of women between the ages of 18 and 45 are creating content on only fans, which is a lot in a country of 350 million plus. Yeah, I've seen claims get bandied around that 10% of all women between the ages of 18 and 24 are creating content. But that is anecdotal. It has no serious backing whatsoever. But I have seen it thrown out a lot. So it seemed worth addressing on OnlyFans.
- [09:01]
A
Or is that like some people are trying to be influencers on Instagram? 10% of 18 to 24.
- [09:07]
C
I think it's just completely made up. I couldn't find anything that said 10% of women were making content of any kind. Content on only. I mean, I really dug for this.
- [09:16]
A
Okay, so if that's made up, then people can just sort of disregard it. But I've heard that claim too, and I don't remember the exact ages, but yeah, it's like 1 in 10 women in their 20s is making content. And again, it's something. When I googled it, it kind of just came up on a Reddit only from other people saying they'd heard it. So that's one of those things I'm going to say. Giant box of salt.
- [09:35]
C
Everywhere I looked for that I could find said people say this and it's not true.
- [09:40]
A
Okay.
- [09:41]
C
And I did find stuff that was about this claim, so that's why I think it's worth addressing. The ages of the subscribers do skew younger in general. Also, it's not exclusively Gen Z, but it does cluster around Gen Z, the subscribers.
- [09:58]
A
So it ranges from anyone can monetize content to a heavily adult oriented platform.
- [10:04]
C
Yeah, and I still get ads for OnlyFans on Twitter for people who do fitness programs and weird stuff. That's not people getting naked and having sex on camera. To me, it's like it's a weird platform to choose as your platform for bodybuilding advice or whatever. But what do I know? They're probably making money.
- [10:24]
A
It seems pretty heavily associated in the public mind with porn. And so that's what we're going to focus on for the show. It doesn't mean that it's only porn on there. It doesn't mean that it's only straight men buying from women. But that's what we're focusing on. And I just, I want to set that out there before we get the emails. Like, hey, I run a cooking show on OnlyFans. Your episode was disingenuous or something. Right? Okay. Like we're focusing on the main part of this thing. So I can't really imagine trying to explain an only fans credit card charge to my wife by saying, oh, is it. It's a tennis coach. Maybe I should sell a podcasting course on OnlyFans just to cover all my homeboys. And I'm saying, beyond the headlines about outrageous amounts of money, what are people actually making off OnlyFans? This has got to be skewed like it is with podcasting.
- [11:06]
C
The top 1% is making a third of all the money. Median earnings are about $150 a month or less. OnlyFans takes a 20% cut, plus you have to pay the tax man, so that $150 gets whittled down pretty fast. No one goes into it thinking they're going to be the one making $150 a month. They all think they're going to be in the 1%, but that ain't how the math works, man.
- [11:31]
A
That just sounds exactly like podcasting. It's also not free money, which people might know intellectually but don't think of when they sign up. You're not just going to post content once from your phone and watch the millions roll in. You have to be creating content regularly. You have to promote. Which you can see. If you haven't noticed that half of the posts on Reddit and TikTok and Instagram or whatever social media that are thirst traps are OnlyFans funnels where you're like, oh, that's an interesting oh. Then you got to click this and then it takes you there. That's all heavy duty promotion that costs money, a ton of time. You got to engage your audience. I'd imagine. All told, it's probably a pretty serious investment of time and even in money to make it work. And there's no guaranteed shot. Just like with any creative endeavor, right?
- [12:16]
C
Much like podcasting, I'd imagine marketing is a pretty huge factor. Plus, if you're not making tons of effort all the time, you're just not going to see any kind of consistent return. I mean, how many people are going to listen to your podcast if you release one episode a month?
- [12:31]
A
Yeah, not just that. I mean, for any aspiring podcasters at home, this job keeps me pretty busy. There's way more to making the show than just hanging out with Nick on Zoom and talking about porn, believe it or not. And it's not meant to be offensive at all, and I totally don't take it that way. But it does sting a little when people will go like, oh, what's your full time job? When I Tell them I have a podcast. And I'm like, no, no, no. That's actually a fair assumption, right? Because most podcasters, they don't do this for a living. Or they're like, oh, so that's. Do you just do that by yourself? And I'm like, no, it's a media company that has like, you know, accounting department and taxes and stuff. But I don't blame people for not getting it. It's not a. I get it, but it's like, yeah, there's way more going on. And I think for anybody starting a business, they don't realize that, like, if you want a bakery, you don't just get to bake cookies all day. You're deep in the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet nonsense. And I would imagine there's a lot of burnout among creators on OnlyFans, just like there is anywhere else where you're doing something for money and it doesn't make any money.
- [13:29]
C
It's hard to quantify burnout statistics, but there's some evidence around the topic that's worth sharing. A survey of 1,000 creators in the United States and the UK found that 52% of creators have experienced burnout. 37% have considered seriously quitting as a result. That seems significant, even if the numbers aren't, strictly speaking, scientific.
- [13:51]
A
How does burnout at OnlyFans compare to other gig jobs like Twitch, streaming, or even just driving an Uber?
- [13:58]
C
I actually couldn't find any comparable data about gig workers. You see reports on people feeling economically insecure among Uber drivers. It's like 45% of them. And you see people at Twitch who complained about feeling like dancing monkeys, but there's no comparable study about burnout. I don't think OnlyFans and other quasi entertainment gigs like Twitch are really comparable either to OnlyFans. I mean, virtually every society on planet Earth in the history of forever has decided that sex is not just another activity like checking out groceries at the store or repairing used cars. And I don't think this is some weird superstitious holdover from some alleged time of sexual repression. I think people have a very accurate sense that sex is not just some other thing. We recognize that there's some dimension of sex that requires special attention or being set apart from other aspects of our lives.
- [14:53]
A
What about other negative effects on OnlyFans creators lives? Do we have any information about that?
- [14:58]
C
34% of OnlyFans creators reported adverse outcomes like anxiety, depression, shame, and low self esteem. Frankly, surprised that it's not higher, but that's still significant. There's serious pressure to be cranking out new content, and I can see how that would be stressful. This is not an economically secure way of making a living. The most troubling number that I could find was that 6% reported having little control over how their content was used.
- [15:27]
A
Yeah, okay, well, I want to jump on that, but this is interesting that you're right. There's a lot of pressure to put out new content, and I would imagine if it's you having sex with somebody, which is, again, what we're focusing on for this episode, and nobody likes it, nobody buys it, that's got to sting a little, right? Like, if people don't like my podcast, I'm kind of like, okay, you know, it's different than other podcasts. Maybe you just wanted news, or maybe you don't think that I'm entertaining or that I'm a dumbass, and I accept that. I know that the people think that because they write that to me very explicitly. But, like, if you're just on there naked showing off and people are like, nah, that. That hurts, man. You know, that stings. Yeah. On a personal level and would definitely involve shame and low self esteem. Like, I can't even sell my boobs or my dong. Like, I thought that was this thing is my whole personality. What am I going to do now? You mentioned that 6% reported having little control over how their content was used. I thought that was the entire premise of OnlyFans in the first place. It allowed people total control over their content.
- [16:26]
C
Well, you think, but there are guys out there whose entire business model is managing in giant screaming air quotes, women who create content. One of them's really famous, and I won't say his name on this podcast because it's like invoking a demon. But you know what I'm talking about. And I'd imagine that in more cases than not, they're the ones that are actually in control of how the content gets used.
- [16:52]
A
Okay, so digital pimps.
- [16:54]
C
Yeah, basically over 50% felt the platform's oversight was insufficient. But what they meant by oversight isn't really said. I'm genuinely curious if this is linked to the 6% who don't think they have control over their content, but the information just isn't there. Back to burnout. 60% of creators leave in the first year. The main reasons provided for this are burnout and low earnings, which I suspect are very closely correlated.
- [17:22]
A
Right. Why spend your time on this platform if you're not making any money? I'd burn out putting in Big effort for little reward on any platform and with any kind of content, let alone something again, as personal with as many externalities as adult content.
- [17:35]
C
The main takeaway, I think, is that this is not easy money by any stretch of the imagination, which is often how people think about it, especially people who are getting into it. It's a very misleading narrative.
- [17:47]
A
The other thing I'd imagine is a problem is women have a hard enough time if they have any kind of high profile online without creeps and weirdos bothering them. I have women show guests on the podcast and a lot of times they'll say, do I have to do video? Okay, I got to do my hair and makeup. I'm like, no, just show up, whatever, comfortable. And they're like, no, I can't do that. And I learned that years ago because I'll have a scientist on. And they'll be like, no, I have to do hair and makeup and make sure that I look good. Because Otherwise all the YouTube comments are about how crappy I look and not about the fact that I'm literally an astrophysicist. And I'm like, that's so depressing. Like, I'm searching for alien life on another planet. Okay, but like, is she hot though, bro? Like, is she hot? It's so annoying to see that. And granted, YouTube is like scraping the bottom of the dang barrel. But look, it's got to just be worse if you have a career on OnlyFans where you're. It's actually your job to look hot, right? That's the idea. Generally it's like you're not a scientist most of the time you're supposed to look hot. So now you've got stalkers and you've got all the problems that a normal woman has just existing, except turned up to 11.
- [18:52]
C
Yeah, there's actually, there's a study on this, but it's the data. It's not a very good one. It's this qualitative study with an N of 43.
- [19:00]
A
For those of you among us who aren't statisticians or nerds like Nick, that means the study has 43 participants, which is tiny.
- [19:05]
C
Yeah, that definitely makes it not a very good study. But I do think that it's worth mentioning what we learned from those participants. The study found frequent occurrences or fears of harassment, stalking, doxxing, and content leakage. Harassment in this case meant privacy invasions, persistent messaging, and fear of exposure of their identities. I'm not trying to downplay any of this, but getting a lot of messages from a guy who's developed a crush on you, I'd definitely be weirded out. Doxxing sucks. I've been doxxed. Don't recommend it. That said, I don't think dudes being weird is really outside the purview of what you're signing up for. With the caveat of there's weird and there's abuse of harassment. And also, like, just. There's a spectrum of weird. You know, it's like this guy messages me eight times a day. It's like, well, he's paying you three bucks a message. Yeah. You know, he's developed some weird parasocial attachment to you where he thinks you are going to get married. That's stressful. That sucks. If someone's threatening you, that's criminal. If some guy's carving your name into his dick with an X acto knife, that's definitely beyond what you signed up for. That's outside of the spectrum of what you should expect as weird guys on OnlyFans. Guys getting attached to you. I mean, it's not ideal, but it's like when celebrities are like, oh, people bother me in public and. Yeah, I bet that sucks. You're out with your family, you're trying to enjoy dinner. You know, I used to see celebrities out all the time when I was in la. I didn't bother him, partly because I don't have anything to say to them, you know, you don't want to. Spider Man. Toby. Whatever. Yeah, yeah, I used to see him all the time and he would just look at me like, yup, I'm Spider Man. I'm sure it's a drag, but if you don't like it, go bag groceries at Safeway instead of starring in The Avengers Part 9 or posting nudie videos on OnlyFans. Like, some of this is just occupational hazard.
- [21:05]
A
Yeah, sorry. You're Thor. That must be so bad. I, too, would hate to just be running away from throngs of women that want me and dudes who think I'm the most amazing, treating me like a literal God for millions of dollars a year. But, yeah, the downsides are worth it. Where did the X acto knife thing come from? That was just such a gross. I just had a visceral reaction to that. And I'm still like, you know when you subconsciously protect your genitalia for no reason? I'm still doing that thing.
- [21:34]
C
It just came out of my twisted little mind, man.
- [21:36]
A
That's horrible. Just the visual of that is just so gross, too. Oh, my God.
- [21:42]
C
I don't know, Jordan, maybe you just don't love your wife as much as I do mine.
- [21:49]
A
Good lord. Moving right along. What about the doxing and the leaking of images and videos? Because that would be kind of awful. Like, I'm thinking of the show fan who was paying her way through nursing school. It probably had not occurred to her because her face was in the images. At least on the. She showed me the safe for work stuff because I didn't. I'm not a subscriber. And I was like, oh, okay, she's really pretty. So I can imagine that someone can find out who she is. And now she's a nurse by now. That would be kind of awful if that stuff was floating around the operating room where she now works.
- [22:20]
C
Yeah, doxxing sucks from firsthand experience. And it's definitely not part of the package. This is not like, oh, some guy messages me a bunch and tells me how hot I am and it's weirding me out. That's definitely not what you're signing up for. Leaking materials again, that sucks. That's an IP violation. That's not a threat or harassment necessarily. It is if they say, like, I'm going to send this to your job or your family or something like that. Like, that's definitely. None of it's okay.
- [22:49]
A
But, you know, like, basically, it's a commercial issue is what you're saying.
- [22:52]
C
Right? It's a commercial issue. It's one that you should frankly expect because this is the Internet.
- [22:56]
A
This is the media environment that we're in. You make songs, people share them. On Napster, you can sue all you want. You're not putting the toothpaste back in the tube. Same with porn.
- [23:04]
C
It becomes. I think it probably crosses over into revenge porn if there's like a spiteful, you know, I sent this to your kid's teacher kind of thing. You know, you post sexual material online and anyone who can pay for it can view it. Like, yeah, it's blast from the past, but Metallica complaining about Napster, yeah, that.
- [23:22]
A
Is a blast from the past. And I see what you're saying. And again, I want to be clear that just because someone creates adult content doesn't mean that they deserve to have their stuff leaked and that it's okay for people to harass them. I'm pretty sure that we're clear on this. But people love to listen to 10% of what we say and then write an email about it while not listening to any of our qualifications or explanations on it.
- [23:42]
C
I don't think shoplifting is okay, but stores price it into their business model. We know that the world is full of imperfect people. If we're being generous and charitable.
- [23:53]
A
Yeah, Wynonna Ryder. Yes, exactly. We know it's my dog's name.
- [23:58]
C
We know that on the Internet people love to commit IP violations. We know, especially at this point, that people like to leak OnlyFans materials. You know, this going into it, it does not make the other person's behavior okay. But like, oh, I'm so shocked that somebody pirated my movie is like, why, like, why does that shock you? That's just the one study. There's another one that was done by cybertrace and the BBC. I don't have the participant size for that BBC.
- [24:29]
A
You mean the British Broadcasting Corporation. And again, since we're talking about porn, I feel the need to clarify that. If you know, you know. But anyway, continue.
- [24:35]
C
I don't know.
- [24:36]
A
But okay, the.
- [24:38]
C
We don't have the end for the other study. The other study from cybertrace and the British Broadcasting System, which apparently. I need to clarify.
- [24:46]
A
Corporation.
- [24:46]
C
Yeah. Yes, thank you. 70% of participants reported bullying, identity attacks. I don't really know what that means. And sexual harassment from followers, which again, all of this is bad, but the cyberbullying thing is like, it sucks. But everyone with a high profile Internet presence has to deal with this. It's not just OnlyFans creators. It's not podcasters, it's people with big followings on Twitter. Yeah, I'm not saying that's okay. I'm just saying that people are aware of this. They know that this is part of being a high profile person on the Internet. It's not specific to OnlyFans creators. If you go into building your profession on the Internet and you're not aware that that's going to be a part of your daily life, I kind of find it hard to believe that you don't know that and that you haven't priced that in.
- [25:36]
A
OnlyFans. Turning lockdown boredom into a lifetime of tax write offs and lower back pain. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quiltmind. If you're not on LinkedIn, you really should be. Because like it or not, it's a signal of professionalism. When somebody Googles you, your LinkedIn is usually the first thing that pops up. If it's outdated, empty, or worse, nonexistent. That's basically the online version of showing up to a meeting in sweatpants. But here's the thing. LinkedIn is not just a digital resume. It's where peers, clients and opportunities size you up. And since most people rarely post, it's actually one of the easiest ways to stand out. That's where Quilt Mind comes in. They specialize in helping busy professionals become LinkedIn famous in just a couple hours a month. For me, it's simple. I hop on a quick call, share some stories and insights. Their team turns that into polished posts that sound exactly like me. The accountability keeps me showing up. The consistency builds credibility. If you want to see it in action, check out what I've been posting on LinkedIn. And if you're ready to raise your own presence, reach out to jordanaudienceiltmind.com that's Jo R Dan audience at Q U I L T M I N D Com this episode is also sponsored by Wayfair. The holidays are coming up fast, which in our house means Jen is already in full on decorating mode. I've learned not to fight it. She's the one who makes everything look amazing and festive and honestly, look, I get to enjoy the results, right? She went on Wayfair the other day. I swear, every time she does, our house levels up. This year she found some new Christmas decorations to swap out the old stuff, keep things fun and fresh. Plus this sleek magnetic knife block for the kitchen, cozy duvet insert for the guest room. Since we got family coming in, it's getting chilly and we have kind of like ghetto blankets on there right now. Everything showed up fast. Free delivery actually made me look like I was part of the plan. Which, you know, let's be honest, I wasn't. Wafer is a little bit dangerous in the best way. They got everything Christmas trees, wreaths, cookware for hosting, furniture, you name it, all in one place. Really great prices. So if your house is about to become holiday HQ or you just want to make it look like you got it all together, Wayfair makes it easy.
- [27:30]
B
Get organized, refreshed and ready for the holidays. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style every home.
- [27:43]
A
Don't forget about our newsletter. We bit wiser. You love reading it. I love writing a lot of engagement from you on this newsletter because you can always hit reply and reach us. It's a two minute read every Wednesday or just about. It's very practical. You can apply something right away. The wisdom comes from our thousand plus episodes and it is a great way to engage with the show and a Great companion to the show. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. I will say from my perspective, I started in 2006 and there weren't influencers or anything back then. And so I did think that the people that you experience online, I mean, you're getting a cutout of regular society. It's funny, I had a conversation with Tim Ferriss about this and most people know who he is. Best selling author, huge podcast. And I remember talking with him, this is years ago and being like, do you ever get crazy messages? It was him, me and Ramit Sethi. I think we were talking about our crazy messages. Tim had done sort of back of the napkin math that was like, if there's one super crazy person. We didn't have chatgpt or even think to Google it back then, but he's like, out of a thousand people in society, you have one like dangerously crazy person. Not an unreasonable amount to think, right? 0.1%. Like, okay, sure, if you have 10 million followers, there's an army of dangerously crazy people that know you, follow you, consume your content, think that they know you and are maybe going to target you at some point during their delusions. And I even have that. And people. I'm not on YouTube where I have like a wide appeal. It's a podcast, there's people who subscribe, but I still, I can count it every September. It's funny because it's fresh in my mind. Every September I get a couple of emails from different people and I don't know why September that are stressed out. This month I get my. This is my crazy month where I get the craziest and it's always from the same emails and they always say similar things and I'm like, this person is like a hardcore delusional, anti government conspiracy weirdo who thinks I work for the CIA and will not listen to evidence to the contrary and like knows a lot about my personal life. It's super freaking weird and it's really creepy. It's creepy. And so like knowing that going in now, yes, it's creepy, but I'm a dude and I'm like, okay, knock on my door and you will eat a clip full of lead if you try to do anything. But if you're a nursing student who's in the UK and you're a 22 year old woman and the guy's like, I know you work at Kaiser Permanente. You're that you're like, that's really scary because now You're. Are you waiting in the parking lot for me to get off work? Like, that's the assumption that women kind of have to make.
- [30:08]
C
So anyway, and to be clear, I do completely agree that it's different for women and men, regardless of whether or not they're. Yes onlyfans creators or not. And you're correct to point that out.
- [30:19]
A
It's going to be hard to know how you're going to react to that until it happens. I think that was my earlier point that I sort of lost track of. I mean, again, I knew I was going to be getting constantly getting angry messages from people. And I love all of you, all you angry commenters out there, even the haters, and frankly, the losers. But the reality of it is very different from what people might mentally prepare for. And other. Some platforms have it Worse, like my YouTuber buddies, they get it way worse. And it's because anybody can sort of access their stuff and the algorithm feeds it to people who are staring at YouTube all day. Podcasts, you kind of have to seek out is a different animal. OnlyFans, you're naked, there's sex involved. That's another layer of weird for people who are coming after you. And there's also another level to this that's worth mentioning. Namely, if I get an email with somebody saying you're an enemy of the state, you're a Jew and a shill for the FBI, it's mildly disturbing, like I said before, but I've mostly forgotten about it by lunchtime until it's September again of next year. 99% of the haters and stuff that I get just disagree with me. Whereas if you are a sex worker, nude, adult, creator, whatever, 99% of the haters, it's just much, much more personal and it would just feel more dangerous. I think that's my convoluted point here.
- [31:26]
C
Yeah. And as you know, like, I'm not unaware of the dangers of having an online career.
- [31:31]
A
You spent a few, was it months dealing with an online hate mob. I mean, that's a long time to deal with like an intense level of BS like that.
- [31:39]
C
Yeah. And it was like threats and every everything. But this is like why I don't do editorial writing anymore. This is why I do sales copywriting now. Because I was tired of waking up to 50 emails telling me to go kill myself because I made fun of somebody's favorite band on the Internet. What I didn't do is complain about it and keep doing it. And it's like I made a choice. I'M not the guy who's going to lead that life. Some people are cool with it. My tolerance for it was very low, and so I did something else. Didn't feel like I got chased out of my profession. I just feel like there's a guy who's cut out for that, and I'm not him.
- [32:19]
A
I think that's a fair assessment. But there have to be OnlyFans horror stories out there. Do we have any of those?
- [32:24]
C
We don't have a ton of examples, but I was able to find three, and I'm sure there's more. This is just what I was able to find. A member of our production team actually found a different article, but it was all the same stories.
- [32:39]
A
So I actually. I spoke to someone that I know about this casually, and I said, hey, if you know anybody. Because he was friends with an OnlyFans creator and he had heard some stuff that was so bad. I asked if she would talk about it for us for this piece, and she actually said it was so traumatizing and horrible, she didn't want to ever talk about it again. And I said, can you give me, like, a category? And it had to do with stalking and violence. It does get bad.
- [33:05]
C
Yeah. And I would estimate for the three we have, there's at least 10,000 per.
- [33:09]
A
Oh, yeah. Probably just the scale of the problem.
- [33:12]
C
That no one talks about. And they just go, whatever. They're noteworthy because they're so extreme. And two of them are, like, creepy, and one of them is a nightmare.
- [33:23]
A
So what's the difference between merely creepy and nightmarish?
- [33:27]
C
One guy ordered a creator champagne and then showed up at her house and was following her around after she told them to buzz off. That's creepy.
- [33:35]
B
Yep.
- [33:35]
C
It's also criminal.
- [33:36]
A
Yes.
- [33:36]
C
And she pressed charges, so good for her. One guy drove 400 miles uninvited and stalked a woman. And again, she pressed charges. This is not like Cape Fear, where the cops are not doing anything because the criminal is so crafty that you just can't catch him. Like, these guys are idiots, and they get caught pretty quickly. Appropriate legal action gets taken, which is not to downplay it. It's just. It's not like there's people running around doing this with impunity, and no one's doing anything. It's like, now they got. These guys got prosecuted.
- [34:08]
A
I'm really hoping that the nightmarish one is not going to involve a dead body.
- [34:12]
C
It doesn't, but it's pretty messed up. Some dude broke into a woman's house and hid in her attic and filmed her while she was asleep.
- [34:23]
A
Oh my God.
- [34:25]
C
He was also prosecuted.
- [34:26]
A
Thank God. Oh my gosh.
- [34:28]
C
So fortunately, with all the examples I could find, no one was physically hurt and everyone was charged. I was sure that it was very psychologically damaging, but nobody was hurt, nobody was killed. Thank God for that. There's gotta be more that we don't know about. But stalking, actual stalking, as opposed to just being a pest or a weirdo in DMs, I would say that seems comparatively rare considering how many women are doing this. There's also another one that was pretty awful where a woman was doxed by other mothers in a Facebook moms group.
- [35:05]
A
These are the worst. This sounds awful. I can only imagine where this is going. Nobody bullies women quite like other women. Like guys are violent. Don't get me wrong, that's awful and it's terrible and it's definitely the worst thing. But somehow other women are just so crafty at destroying each other's lives. It's really like next level.
- [35:24]
C
Yeah, it's awful. And that is also a example of you should not have to price this in to your decision about whether or not to make adult content online, but you should be aware that it's an occupational hazard or you're just lying to yourself because it is. It's horrible that these women, any of this happened. The women, the men. It's horrible. But it's a real risk that you take. And in her case, I think it's worth noting, like you said, she was not doxed by an obsessed fan. She was doxed by the mean girls cabal. Though I'm sure lots of women do get doxxed by weirdly obsessed fans. The world is full of shitty people. And while I'm sure that most of the guys consuming OnlyFans content are relatively.
- [36:08]
A
Normal, well, it depends on what they're viewing. I mean, I have seen the clown porn, you know. I mean, people have told me about the clown porn, man.
- [36:16]
C
Normal, well behaved people have weird tastes sometimes.
- [36:20]
A
They sure do.
- [36:21]
C
But yes, you should absolutely expect to be able to go to work and not be harassed or threatened or blackmailed. Regardless of where you work. You should also be aware that while most of the people viewing your content are probably within the bounds of what we might call normal, broadly speaking, you probably have an outsized number of freaks and weirdos relative to the general population.
- [36:46]
A
Sounds a little judgy, but probably accurate.
- [36:48]
C
Okay, yeah, I'm very comfortable being judgy about this.
- [36:52]
A
I'm a little uncomfortable Diving into this, but it seems like a reasonable concern. How prevalent is underage content on OnlyFans?
- [37:00]
C
So this is often thrown at OnlyFans as a problem with their platform. But realistically, and to be clear, anything more than zero is too much. But we have two numbers, and they're both extremely low and reflect a fair to middling amount of due diligence on the part of OnlyFans. Okay, so in mid-2024, a child exploitation investigator flagged 26 OnlyFans accounts suspected of containing child sexual abuse material. The platform removed them within a day. These incidents were then reported to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children. A prior Reuters investigation documented 30 child sex abuse material related complaints to law enforcement between December 2019 and June 2024 involving over 200 explicit videos and images featuring minors. Now, again, not okay, but we're talking about 30 cases tops on a platform with 4 million creators. It's certainly terrible. I don't see any evidence that it's a systemic problem. Sure seems like they take this seriously, at least when they're alerted to it. That said, some of the stuff that got uncovered was like, how did this get approved by the platform?
- [38:24]
A
Yeah, I mean, look, I think if you have a platform that has a ton of 18 year olds on it and you get a 17 year old on it, that could fly under the radar. But I assume that's not what you're talking about. What specifically are you talking about?
- [38:35]
C
Child sex abuse material involving toddlers.
- [38:38]
A
Ooh, yikes. Yuck.
- [38:41]
C
Yeah, that's a fair reaction to that, I would say. Yeah, I can't upload a reel to Instagram from the gym with a Pantera song playing in the background without it getting flagged for an IP violation. Come on. There's no way to automatically flag this stuff. Yeah, I find it very hard to believe that that technology doesn't exist. OnlyFans pays $14,000 a year to a company to keep tabs on child sex abuse material on the platform. But that's barely anything and they clearly need to be spending more.
- [39:12]
A
I would like to move on from this topic immediately. That's super gross.
- [39:16]
C
Yeah. You and me. But before we do, I want to point out that there's a whole thing where future creators will count down to their 18th birthday, which is also, you know, a little creepy.
- [39:28]
A
Yeah, agree. As a 45 year old man, that's super gross. How much of a thing is that?
- [39:33]
C
It's prominent enough Bhad Bhabie, who you may know as the Catch Me outside girl from Dr. Phil.
- [39:39]
A
Yeah, I hate that I know who that is.
- [39:41]
B
Catch me outside.
- [39:42]
A
How about that?
- [39:44]
C
Yeah, you and me both. She. She kind of teased an 18th birthday OnlyFans drop that made her $1 million in six hours. Lil Tay. Who? I have no idea who that is.
- [39:55]
A
But it's Tay, but smaller. Right.
- [39:59]
C
That was another one who made $1 million in three hours and touted herself as the youngest girl on OnlyFans, which I. I feel uncomfortable saying on your podcast.
- [40:09]
A
Good thing you said it in an extra creepy way too. That's. That's good. Thanks for that. So that's two examples, but honestly, I think that's enough. The takeaway here is that there's. There's nothing illegal about teasing, that you're going to be doing an explicit only fans drop on your 18th birthday, but it's definitely a little troubling, and I don't think anybody wants to see this becoming a trend. Didn't they try to ban porn from the platform semi recently? Or am I tripping? Did I hallucinate this? No.
- [40:34]
C
They declared in 2021 that they were going to ban porn on the site, but there was a huge greater backlash. So they didn't. Some have speculated that this was a publicity stunt, but it was likely driven by pressure from investors and payment processors.
- [40:49]
A
Okay, that makes sense. I do remember that one of the things that I hear a lot is that this is somehow empowering for the creators. But look, again, I'm not judgy. I know you're more judgy, but I'm not really seeing that empowering thing in any of the facts that you're giving me right now.
- [41:03]
C
I think that's a fair analysis. I mean, even if you're in the 1% making all the money, you're basically on a treadmill. You can't ever get off. There's this woman that my wife follows on TikTok who got engaged and stopped doing OnlyFans, and her accountant was like, that was 90% of your income. So you're gonna have to dramatically change your lifestyle or start doing OnlyFans again. And she doesn't want to do it. But do you want to keep your house? In a sense, even if you're successful, you're trapped by your own success. You're always online. You have these parasocial relationships that are necessary for you to maintain your lifestyle. You're under pressure to perform, and to some extent, you're under pressure to always outdo yourself. I just don't accept that there's not an emotional price that you pay. People can try to make sex this value neutral human activity, no different than sneezing all they like. But I just think it's a fact that sex is intimate and private human activity and that exposing yourself in this way comes with some psychic and spiritual cost.
- [42:05]
A
Yeah, look, I talk to sex workers here and there online because I'm super curious about this whole world and I have acquaintances that are in it as a result. And one of the questions that I asked was, so do you have sex like that you enjoy with people that you actually like? And you'd be maybe not surprised that many of them are like not with men anymore? Or they're like, no. They're like, no, I don't have sex anymore because I have so much at work, I never want to do it again. And it's something I do for money. And I'm like, oh, wow, you just, you have ruined that thing for yourself forever. And they're like, yeah, it's sad, but yes, that's what happened. It gets ruined. For me, it's not something I enjoy, it's something I do for money, you know, like it's never going to get fixed. And that to me is really sad. There's also the issue of the normalization of sex work. The sex work is work kind of mantra people say, like to say that sex work is valid. And again, you and I have differing opinions on here, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.
- [43:00]
C
I don't think we need to demonize onlyfans creators or street prostitutes or high end escorts. But I do think that the term sex work is fundamentally dishonest for a couple reasons. First, I think it, it conflates women making a few bucks or even their primary income from only fans with people who are actually having sex for money, many of whom are trafficked or otherwise coerced into the job. It's just weird to me that women screwing their boyfriends on camera in the safety of their homes want some kind of like, glow from this. It's very crass to me when there's this like, attempt to conflate this with.
- [43:40]
A
Girls working the blade basically is that.
- [43:43]
C
Yes, on the streets I find it very distasteful because I think that for most women having sex for money, this is not some, ooh, isn't this this cool, edgy, very 21st century thing that I do? And it's just, oh, it's so fun. And that is not the reality for most of these women. And I think it's gross when there's this attempt to conflate all of this into one thing. I do think that there's something fundamentally dangerous about normalizing this as just one valid choice among many. I think that there should be some kind of stigma against so called sex work. I don't think that this push to insert neoliberal market economics into people's romantic and sexual lives is a good thing.
- [44:32]
A
And I thought you were a libertarian man.
- [44:34]
C
I don't think we should be prosecuting people for making OnlyFans content. But that doesn't mean that I don't think it carries a moral character. It does. My reticence to have the state intervene is not a stamp of moral approval or encouragement regardless of the legal issues. It seems very, very clear to me that replacing human companionship and intimacy with this cheap facsimile thereof carries with it a host of negative consequences.
- [45:03]
A
That's an important distinction from my perspective. I think. I basically agree that the government shouldn't be stopping people from doing or buying this. But I do think there's something at least sad about, can we call it like the monetization of loneliness?
- [45:16]
C
There's fairly alarming statistics about how many men are virgins into their twenties. And to be clear, yes, I'm a Christian. I think sex is for married people, which I know makes me lame and old fashioned. No, I have not exactly practiced what I preach in this regard.
- [45:31]
A
Yeah, look, I think that makes you even more Christian somehow. Get those angry emails going, folks.
- [45:36]
C
I mean, I'm. Yes, I'm not the exception of the rule here, but you know, drinking and driving is bad no matter how many times the person telling you not to drink and drive has done it.
- [45:45]
A
How many times have you driven drunk? That is bad.
- [45:48]
C
Zero. My parents actually put the fear of God into me about drunk driving from like age 6. My dad lost his license for DUI, which is why he quit drinking. It's kind of like one of the few things they did right. I've never driven drunk in my life. I used to feel weird if I would have. If I'd have a beer and then drive like two hours later, I would be like, oh man, I'm going to get a DUI for this. But anyway, the problem with the delayed male virginity isn't that people aren't having promiscuous sex. The issue is this statistic seems like a fairly good proxy for how many guys have never had a girlfriend. Tons of guys who've never had girlfriends isn't just sad, it's it carries socially corrosive second and third order effects that are potentially dangerous. And OnlyFans and the AI girlfriends that are coming for the OnlyFans jobs. Because if you don't read the news, we're almost kind of late on the OnlyFans thing because everybody's got an AI girlfriend now.
- [46:49]
A
Cheaper, I suppose.
- [46:50]
C
More intimate. Cheaper, but also, you know, molds to exactly the thing that you want, which is. Yeah, that's creepy. It absolutely is. Because it's not what a human being is. A human being is not a thing that you mold that an algorithm molds to be your exact perfect frictionless partner. You know, this is not going to help with this problem of socially isolated adult men. To circle back to the legal issue, we need to talk about the BOP houses.
- [47:21]
A
I have a feeling I'm going to regret asking this, but what is a bop house?
- [47:24]
C
It's a centralized hub for content creation. OnlyFans creators might live there or even just drop into film. There tends to be a lot of cross promotion among the creators who are living or working there.
- [47:34]
A
So it's like a hype house for tiktokers, except it's for porn. So what's the issue with that?
- [47:40]
C
Well, the issue is if you're gonna start looking into OnlyFans creators from a legal perspective, there have to be some kind of actual crimes taking place in some of these bobhouses.
- [47:51]
A
Oh, for sure.
- [47:51]
C
There's an issue in porn in general where some women in these movies. I didn't research it because it wasn't the topic, but the percentage who knows some of these women are trafficked or coerced. And I cannot imagine that that's not true on OnlyFans as well.
- [48:07]
A
OnlyFans, where the top 1% buy Ferraris and everyone else can almost afford extra guac. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Chilipad by Sleep Me. Recently I stayed at a nice hotel on a business trip. Not trying to flex as part of the. Come on. Just trying to illustrate a point here, people. And I'm laying there thinking, this mattress is great, but where's my chilipad? I've officially become that guy who can't sleep without his fancy high tech bed cooling system. Thanks a lot, Silicon Valley. The Chillipad by Sleep Me is a water based cooling pad that goes right on top of your mattress. You don't have to buy a new mattress. It keeps your bed at the perfect temperature. Anywhere from 55 degrees to 115 degrees. I have not tried that one. I've got mine programmed to cool down as I fall asleep and warm up just before I wake up. Jen and I are total opposites when it comes to sleep temperature. She likes it toasty. I like it cold enough to store sushi. And the dual zone setup means we both win. No more middle of the night thermostat wars. I sleep deeper. I don't wake up sweaty. I actually feel human in the morning. So if you want better sleep, check out the chilipad.
- [49:07]
B
Visit Sleep Me Jordan to get your chilipad and save 20% with code JORPHDAN. This special offer is available for listeners of the Jordan Harbinger show, but only for a limited time. Plus, it ships free and you can try it risk free for 30 days with flexible payment and financing options. And if you don't like it, return it at no cost. That's Sleep Me Jordan, because when you optimize your sleep, you optimize your performance.
- [49:33]
A
This episode is also sponsored by Uncommon Goods. Every year I tell myself I'm going to get ahead of the holiday shopping. And every year I end up panic buying something that ships from who knows where two days before Christmas. This year, Jen was not having it. She said, you're getting your act together early. She sent me to Uncommon Goods and now I kind of look like I know what I'm doing. Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress free and joyful with thousands of one of a kind gifts you can't find anywhere else. Jen and I were scrolling together. It's always a good plan, by the way. And every five minutes one of us was like, oh, that's pretty cool. I found this customizable whiskey aging kit for a friend who insists that he can taste oak undertones. Whatever. You totally can't, but fine. And Jen picked out this handmade star map that shows the night sky from the day we met. A little It's a little romancy fancy for my taste, but you know what? I'll take the brownie points. Everything on the site feels thoughtful and unique. Not the generic this is once on sale clearance gift. Uncommon Goods looks for high quality handmade items from small businesses and independent artists. And because everything's made in small batches, the best stuff goes fast. They've got something for everyone. Parents, kids, co workers, that friend who's impossible to shop for. See also aged whiskey guy. Extra cool is that with every purchase, Uncommon Goods donates a dollar to a nonprofit of your choice. They've already given back more than $3 million, which is kind of awesome.
- [50:48]
B
Shop early, have fun, and cross some names off your list today to get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com jordan that's uncommongs.com jordan for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time. Offer uncommon goods we're all out of the ordinary.
- [51:05]
A
This ad is brought to you by Veeve Healthcare, the makers of Apritude Caboteg Review.
- [51:09]
B
You never skip your SPF and you carry hand sanitizer like an accessory. But what are you doing for HIV prevention? One way to help protect yourself from HIV is Apretude, a prescription medicine used to reduce the risk of getting HIV in adults and adolescents weighing at least £77.
- [51:25]
A
You must be HIV negative to receive Apretude and get tested before each injection. If you think you were exposed to HIV or have flu like symptoms, tell your doctor right away. More HIV testing may be needed. Apretude does not prevent other sexually transmitted infections. Practice safer sex to reduce your risk. Get Apretude as scheduled. Missing doses increases your HIV risk. Don't take aperitude if allergic to it or taking certain medicines that may interact. Tell your doctor about your medical conditions, liver problems and mental health. Serious side effects include allergic reactions, a rash, liver problems and depression. If these occur, get medical help right away. The most common side effect is injection site reaction.
- [52:02]
B
Bring your A game and talk to your doctor. Learn more at apprtude.com or call 1-888-240-0340.
- [52:10]
A
Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. It is your support of our sponsors that keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com Deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. I just read a story about this and talked to somebody who knows a little bit inside of it. There used to be a website called I think it was like Girls Do Porn or something. Like it was pretty much exclusively trafficked women and it ended up going on the dark web for a while and the founders I believe tried to escape. One of them did escape and I think was recently ish arrested, living in Spain or something like that after being on the FBI most wanted list. What he was doing was putting up ads in certain markets and saying, you know, models need it or whatever. And then the girls would show up having like no money and maybe even owing this guy money for like the flight and he was accommodating them in his house or one of his properties and they'd show up and he'd be like, you're doing a porn shoot and they'd be like, no. And he's like, you owe me money. And if you want to sleep outside in a strange and dangerous city, that's fine with me. Or you can do this thing on camera. Oh, and by the way, it's not going on the Internet. It's private. It's for something. And we tested everyone. And by the way, none of that was true. He wasn't testing or doing anything, and it was all going on the Internet. He sex trafficked all of these women. Eventually enough of them went to the authorities that he is now spending a ridiculously long time in prison, thankfully. But, yeah, it's awful. And there's just kind of given the sheer probability and scale of websites like OnlyFans and that the company is hands off with the creation that's put up there, it's a near certainty that something similar is happening in many other places as well.
- [53:54]
C
Yeah. And there was a whole controversy again, that I haven't researched the specifics of because it wasn't the topic of the episode, but there was a whole controversy. You know, how many of the women on pornhub were being trafficked? They locked down their content. It's a lot stricter to get stuff on there than it used to be.
- [54:10]
A
Yeah, we did an episode about this with Layla Micklewait, and it turned out to be a ton of underage and trafficked people on pornhub.
- [54:17]
C
People can call me a bad libertarian if they want. I don't really care. It's. I don't think there's any such thing as a good one. I'm fine with the Nordic model approach to prostitution where cops go after johns and pimps, but leave the prostitutes alone and also provide them with alternatives because, like, simply taking their customer base away is not. They're not gonna go, oh, man, I'm broke. I guess I'll go, you know, go now. I'm gonna go to trade school. This is possibly the most shocking thing I'll ever say on the show, but I really think that radical feminists are onto. By which I mean, like, in the academic sense, like Andrea Dworkin McKinnon.
- [54:49]
A
I know McKinnon. Yeah, she's from my law school. So Katherine McKinnon, she's like an icon in the space. And I was walking in the hall and I saw her and, you know, she's very approachable and nice, but she's also like a world renowned feminist icon. And one of my property teachers was like, oh, hey, Kitty, how are you? And I looked at the other students in the hall. We were all like, no way. He just called Catherine McKinnon Kitty. Oh, my. No chance. And she was like, oh, hey. And we're like, oh, okay. So that's your nickname. We were. We were speechless because we were like, oh, you're fired now. Like, that's how this works. Right? Like, you're. You're going to jail for using that nickname with this. Very serious. And she was. She's just actually, like, a shockingly reasonable person in many ways. I guess we were not expecting that. Right. We were kind of a little bit afraid of her because she's serious. Like, she's brilliant.
- [55:39]
C
Yeah. So I'm using radical feminist in the academic sense of a school of feminism, not a. You know, feminists that I blow things up. Right. And also, like, this is a term they would, I believe, self apply. And I absolutely love Andrea Dworkin and have kind of like a weird fixation on her as a. Just an interesting person and a brilliant writer. But, yeah, I think that they're correct about quite a bit. Their analysis about why prostitution and pornography are, like, inherently problematic. I accept that to basically be true.
- [56:08]
A
But aren't these men and women mostly engaged in just consensual commerce?
- [56:13]
C
That's the crux of the issue. Are they?
- [56:16]
A
Okay, you're talking about street prostitution. Not Onlyfans, though, right?
- [56:20]
C
Well, we have some data that some of the women on OnlyFans might be coerced.
- [56:25]
A
I didn't realize we had data on that. Speculating before.
- [56:27]
C
No, we have data on this. So there's a 2024 Reuters investigation that found a woman who had been held captive by her boyfriend and forced to make OnlyFans content for two years.
- [56:38]
A
Oh, my God.
- [56:39]
C
Yeah.
- [56:39]
A
Two years as a porn sex slave. That's horrific. Jesus.
- [56:44]
C
Another study found a trafficker was making a million dollars from only fans. And let me tell you, friends, he was probably not making it off one woman.
- [56:51]
A
No.
- [56:52]
C
The Avery Center's 2021 research found that 6% of creators acknowledged that traffickers had helped create and market their content. 30% reported being approached by suspected traffickers offering account management in exchange for subscription revenue.
- [57:13]
A
I know that trafficking is a big part of the porn industry, the mainstream porn industry, and we just kind of touched on that. So it doesn't really surprise me all that much. As tragic and disgusting as it is, are there any key differences between trafficking in traditional forms of porn and trafficking and OnlyFans? Is there anything notable there?
- [57:28]
C
The big one that needs mentioning is that the trafficking involved in traditional porn in some sense is happening with more participants. I'm not sure that, you know, everyone involved in shooting a scene with a trafficked woman knows that she's being trafficked and exploited, but I am reasonably certain that some of them know. On the other hand, when it's just one guy, one woman and a webcam, there are far fewer people involved. And so it can happen a lot more quietly, which in a sense makes it more dangerous. It's easier to get away with because you don't have as many willing participants who are okay with what you're doing.
- [58:06]
A
There's not a sound guy and a lighting guy in a catering who are like, why is she scared and crying when the camera stops and like says she can't leave and like, this is not cool. I'm out of here and I'm calling the cops. Yeah, if you're just like you said, that one woman was held captive by her boyfriend for two years and forced to create content, that's. I can't even imagine how horrible that is. And I can imagine that this also makes it a lot more difficult to prosecute too. Just putting my lawyer hat on. I mean, there's fewer participants, fewer people to talk to the cops in the event of a bust. There's fewer people for the cops to lean on to get more information. There's fewer clues. Right. Because if it's just a bunch of user generated content, how are you going to know that anything's wrong in the first place? It's probably also harder in general because of the distance covered in the opacity of the platform in general, you just, you don't have any idea who's behind the account. Most of the time you can kind of know what they look like if they're showing their face or whatever, but other than that, they could be anyone. And I'm guessing that getting info out of OnlyFans, you need a subpoena, right? You can't just be like, hey, who's the person in this video? Like, they're going to say, give me a, show me a court order. I'm not just going to dox a bunch of our users for you and.
- [59:11]
C
They may not even give it to you.
- [59:12]
A
Then who knows?
- [59:13]
C
Yeah, there's a coalition led by the national center on Sexual Exploitation that documented patterns consistent with E pimping and online sexual exploitation. And I suspect that all of this just kind of scratches the surface of the dark underbelly of OnlyFans. We talked about the child sex abuse material and like, that's way harder to conceal than trafficking or coercing or exploiting a woman who is of legal age. The thing is, sexual crimes of this nature are generally hard to investigate and prosecute. A lot of times the victims don't want to communicate. Sometimes the victims don't even know that they're victims or they don't think of themselves that way. There's a difficult, complicated, and uncomfortable gray area of consent when it comes to ladies of the digital night and their managers.
- [60:07]
A
So called managers.
- [60:08]
C
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, for the record, I rank pimps somewhere below fent dealers, which is to say slightly below pond scum. I don't want people to think that I'm making excuses or alibis for them here. I'm just trying to explain the reality of the situation. It sucks. It's hard to hear or talk about, but the reality is what it is. And that's why I think the best approach is the Nordic model. They've just decided in Nordic model countries that the dubious consent of the women involved is irrelevant and what the men are doing is illegal and whether they're buying it or selling it.
- [60:42]
A
So while there's some clear differences between onlyfans and more traditional forms of sex work, I think that one thing they share in common is that it could be very hard to walk away. That might be because they're being coerced in some way, but it might also just be because they don't have a lot of other options. Man. I know a couple of single moms that, you know, got pregnant in their teens and twenties and they're good looking and they're like, so I'm looking for a new job and so far I found stripper girl who works at a really dodgy club where I'm pretty sure you're not only just walking around in lingerie for this amount of money. I found other random sex work stuff on camera. And there's a cafe that's gonna pay me 10% of what all of those other jobs are gonna do. And I can't afford to take that because I have a kid. And yeah, they don't really have other options. And so her decision is she's going to be really poor because she doesn't want to get sexually assaulted all the time. It's just going to be harder to get a job in normie land. Like, it'd be almost be like going to prison in a way. Like, what do you do? What do you say?
- [61:45]
C
Yeah. Can you explain this gap on your resume? I think very few employers are going to be stoked to Hear the answer. I was a full time only fans creator.
- [61:54]
A
Yeah. I want to say you and I are a little bit different in this. I don't think it would bother me personally, but I'm probably the exception to the rule here. And sadly I'm not hiring right now. Other than of course for naked landscaper who dresses like a clown in lingerie. Speaking of trafficking, you really do have to find somebody who's kind of like, I don't care, you're chopping vegetables. But that's going to be way less appealing than what you were making working at some club.
- [62:17]
C
I could see how you could transition to like social media management or something that doesn't even pay very well.
- [62:22]
A
So that's the chopping vegetables of the digital world, really.
- [62:25]
C
Yeah, it very much is. The main pivots that you're going to have are going to be like reality television, I guess. But that river seems to flow in the other direction. There's established reality television stars who start making onlyfans content, whether it's adult or just a more personal look at their lives. But other than that, how many porn stars have crossed over into mainstream media?
- [62:48]
A
I mean, I remember Tracy Lorde specifically because it was like, oh, it's a big deal. She used to be in porn and now she actually does stuff that's not porn. And if I try to think of somebody besides her in my entire lifetime that's made that transition, that's pretty much it.
- [63:06]
C
Jenna Jameson. I haven't thought of her in 20 years.
- [63:09]
A
Like, yeah, household name for all the wrong reasons. I mean, I'm not like, yeah, I really loved her in Game of Thrones or whatever. Like, no.
- [63:15]
C
Was she in Game?
- [63:16]
A
No, she wasn't. Of course not.
- [63:18]
C
Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. And like, you know Tracy Lord, like she did direct to video PM Entertainment movies, which I loved because I have.
- [63:25]
A
Bad taste skin and Max kind of Sunday night.
- [63:28]
C
No, she's like, she's. She does like renegade cop movies, which I really like. I love direct action.
- [63:34]
A
That sounds like a porn. By the way, direct action from the.
- [63:37]
C
80S and 90s where like, you know, they're a cop who doesn't play by.
- [63:41]
A
Play by the rules.
- [63:42]
C
Yeah, he's a cop who plays by his own set of rules. Like, I mean that shit up. And Tracy Lord said a couple of those for PM Entertainment, which is like, you know, the Criterion collection of. Of renegade cop movies. And yeah, they're what's called like Born to Kill or something. So it's like that type of. She made a Couple of those kinds of movies, which I loved. But yeah, I have bad taste, which is better than having no taste. John Waters movie she did like. Is any of this stuff mainstream media?
- [64:11]
A
I don't even know who these people are, but that's probably a me problem.
- [64:14]
C
Yeah. There's a stigma around adult content. Doesn't matter how much you wish it wasn't true, it is. So there's a lot to walk back from. If you decide this is going to be your path and it just doesn't work out, you know what you could do? There's probably a burgeoning little cottage industry of like, I used to pretend to enjoy sex on camera and now I pretend to believe in Jesus. There's probably some kind of industry like that, like ex porn person, motivational speaker bs. But like, there's no pivot from this. There's no realistic pivot from this.
- [64:46]
A
It seems like OnlyFans is just one part of a bigger story to gigify everything, including your sexual and romantic life.
- [64:53]
C
Yeah. I mean, that's kind of my basic assessment of it as what I find so personally objectionable about it. I don't think the cure to loneliness is men buying attention online. I don't think it's anybody's cure to.
- [65:05]
A
Loneliness attention that probably isn't even coming from the person they think it's coming from.
- [65:09]
C
Right. I'm very curious about what percentage of the messages are actually coming from the creators. And there's no data on this because how, of course, how would there be? But what we do know is that chat trolleys in general are transitioning from human beings to AI. So why would OnlyFans be any different? A lot of the companies I work for, they use support hired from the Philippines. So why would OnlyFans be any different?
- [65:33]
A
There has to be some kind of information on this. OnlyFans isn't going to even necessarily know or tell us, but. But there's gotta be data on messaging in general. Yeah.
- [65:42]
C
Messaging is about 70% of all the revenue generated by the platform.
- [65:46]
A
Wow.
- [65:47]
C
So again, it's not the pictures they're selling. Human contact and interaction. It's a lot sadder, in my opinion, than porn addiction in that respect. Beyond that, there are platforms specifically used for OnlyFans or similar platforms. They're called Flirt, Flow and Chat Persona. Presumably these would not exist if people were not using them. We also know of a class action lawsuit against OnlyFans based directly around buyers feeling like they got burned by the platform because they found out they weren't really chatting directly with the creators. Reuters reported on creators using chatbots and AI, though must be said that OnlyFans terms of service directly prohibits the use of AI.
- [66:31]
A
Okay, I was curious about that.
- [66:33]
C
Yeah, there was an investigation in Wired about how precisely the Shill chatters manage clients for the creators. So no statistics, but there's pretty conclusive anecdotal and circumstantial data that this is happening. Which adds another dimension to the it's kind of sad that men are paying for digital companionship angle because they're not even getting what they think they're paying for. They're talking to a chatbot or some outsourced support team and it's like, yeah, no kidding, they're going to AI girlfriends now.
- [67:03]
A
I was just gonna say the same thing. It's like you might as well knowingly go to an AI girlfriend because you're paying 10 times 100 times as much to use OnlyFans to talk to AI anyway. So like, just have a veneer that someone lies to you and says it's them. You're paying a huge markup. So I think you're onto something with that. I don't have the same as if people couldn't guess moral stance against OnlyFans and adult content creation that you do, but I do think anytime someone is paying for human contact that they're lacking somewhere else. That is not a sustainable solution to the problem that they have. And there's a serious disconnect between creators preconceptions about OnlyFans versus the reality there might be money in OnlyFans. It's neither quick nor easy. It comes with a lot of personal risk that the platform doesn't have to take on despite taking 20% off the top of each creator. And so look, OnlyFans. It might get pitched as a dream job where you lounge around while collecting mountains of cash, but really it's just hustle culture in a thong. Thanks Nick Pell for giving us a full frontal on the facts on OnlyFans. Thanks everyone for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday Advertisers Deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and this show. It's created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Also, we try to get these as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it is fact checked. So consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. When disaster strikes, it's not your go bag or survival stash that saves you, it's your neighbors. Amanda Ripley joins me to reveal why most people freeze instead of panic, and how our biggest threat in a crisis isn't chaos, it's denial.
- [69:08]
D
Disasters happen quite frequently, and they've gotten more frequent, and weather and geological disasters specifically have increased about 400% over the past 50 years. But we've actually gotten much better at surviving them over the same time period. So the number of deaths has dropped by about 2/3. In 1990, the National Hurricane center could predict the path of a hurricane only about 24 hours in advance. That's all you had to get out of the way, which really isn't enough just based on the way people make decisions about evacuation and also based on the design of dense urban places. So now the National Hurricane center can predict the path of a hurricane with pretty good accuracy 72 hours beforehand, which is actually a pretty big difference when it comes to getting out of harm's way. So this is a recurring nightmare for many millions of people at this point. Evacuating, worrying, recovering, rebuilding, all of this. And it's actually a massive tax on our economy. So the bottom line is if you haven't personally experienced a disaster yet, you probably will, unfortunately. But the upside is that the number of deaths has dropped. Humans tend to become polite and courteous and cooperative almost to a fault in most disasters, including strangers. Actually, your best, best ally are the people around you.
- [70:36]
A
This episode might just change the way you think about prepping and who you should be getting to know before the next emergency. Check out episode 1106 with Amanda Ripley here at the Zebra. Research shows the average person would rather endure a root canal than search for auto and home insurance.
- [70:56]
B
Just try to relax, okay?
- [70:58]
A
Or be trapped in a car for eight hours with toddlers on a sugar high or remove a nest of irate hornets. That's why the zebra search is for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can Compare. Today@thezebra.com we do the searching, you do the saving. I think I'll wait inside. Not great with finances.
- [71:20]
C
That's okay.
- [71:21]
D
Experian is your big financial friend.
- [71:23]
A
Explore credit card offers, some labeled no Ding decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit score. Course. See experian.com for details. Applying for Noting declined cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved. 2025 Experian Experian.