1234: Layne Norton | Debunking Diet Soda Panic and Seed Oil Hysteria

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1234: Layne Norton | Debunking Diet Soda Panic and Seed Oil Hysteria

Date: November 4, 2025
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Guest: Dr. Layne Norton, PhD in Nutritional Sciences, Powerlifter

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Overview

In this science-forward and myth-busting episode, Jordan Harbinger is joined by Dr. Layne Norton — nutrition scientist and champion powerlifter — to take a hard look at pervasive myths around diet soda, seed oils, high-protein diets, calorie counting, and the state of “science-washed” supplement marketing. The conversation is engaging and accessible, with Layne dismantling common fears using data, logic, and a hefty dose of real-world practicality.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Protein: Quality, Quantity, and Myths

• Is All Protein Created Equal?

  • Layne emphasizes that total daily protein intake matters far more than protein source, especially at higher doses.

    • “If you get enough total protein at a meal, the source becomes much less important... once you get up to like over 30–40 grams in a sitting, it’s just not gonna matter.”
      (04:11, Layne Norton)

  • Collagen protein is called out as the worst source for muscle building due to lack of essential amino acids.

    • “Collagen specifically is not a great source of protein especially for muscle… It’s very low in essential amino acids... If collagen has any benefit, you’re just better off taking whey protein and wearing sunscreen.”
      (06:18, Layne Norton)

• High Protein Diets & Kidney Health

  • Old dogma against high-protein harming kidneys has been debunked in recent meta-analyses. Only people with pre-existing kidney disease need caution.
    • “High protein diets do not negatively impact healthy kidneys.”
      (09:54, Layne Norton)

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2. Science, Studies & Misleading Headlines

• How Science Gets Distorted

  • Correlational studies (epidemiology) often get misrepresented as causation in pop-sci and media claims about diet. Layne explains the differences between cross-sectional, longitudinal, and — most critically — randomized control trials (RCTs):

    • “The random part of randomized control trials is very important… so that any difference we see is likely because of the treatment, and not confounders.”
      (14:02, Layne Norton)

  • Sample size, study duration, and control are always in a tradeoff when using human subjects.

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3. Diet Soda, Aspartame, and Non-Nutritive Sweeteners

• Top Myths Addressed:

  • No evidence that aspartame or diet sodas cause insulin spikes, type 2 diabetes, or make you hungrier.

    • “Aspartame does not cause an insulin or glucose response. It does not increase hunger… No, it does not cause type 2 diabetes.”
      (21:19, Layne Norton)

  • Cancer fears stem from rat studies at way-above-human doses; humans metabolize aspartame into harmless components:

    • “Even at very high doses of aspartame intake you don’t see rises in methanol… You get more methanol in a glass of orange juice.”
      (27:19, Layne Norton)

  • Natural vs. synthetic: “Appeal to nature” is shown to be a logical fallacy. Dose, not source, dictates toxicity.

    • “Arsenic’s natural. Snake venom is natural... the dosage makes the poison.”
      (29:11, Layne Norton)

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4. Seed Oils & “Toxic” Food Fears

• Debunking Modern Oil Panic

  • Anti-seed oil rhetoric (e.g., about canola, soybean, sunflower oils) is unscientific.

    • Subbing polyunsaturated (seed) oils for saturated fats lowers LDL cholesterol and improves metabolic outcomes.
    • Claims about oxidation/inflammation are not supported by RCTs, where at worst polyunsaturated fats are neutral, usually positive.

  • Processing “scare tactics” (hexane, sodium hydroxide, heating) are addressed:

    • Trace amounts of solvents are far below toxicity thresholds.
    • Frying and oxidation: More a problem of eating lots of fried foods, not trace oil use.

  • Mechanistically, seed oils don’t increase heart disease or inflammation in human tissues.

    • “Every single level of their argument has been debunked.”
      (70:00, Layne Norton)

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5. Fasting, Autophagy, and Longevity

• Fasting does increase autophagy, but:
  • There’s no magical “switch”; it’s a matter of energy balance, not meal timing.
  • Longevity studies showing calorie restriction benefits often just reflect keeping animals (or people) at a healthy weight.
    • “The autophagy effect is a calorie effect... If you eat less, you have higher rates of autophagy.”
      (41:41, Layne Norton)

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6. Metabolism and Aging

• Metabolic Rate and Age:
  • BMR and total daily energy expenditure are stable between ages 20 and 60.
  • Most “slowed metabolism” with age is due to less activity and loss of lean mass, not aging per se.
    • “When you normalize for lean mass, most of the stuff goes away... BMR doesn’t change, even into elderly.”
      (46:11, Layne Norton)

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7. Food Labels & Calorie Counting Accuracy

• Food label accuracy:
  • U.S. law allows up to 20% error either way.
  • If you’re consistent in tracking, the relative change matters more than absolute, and outright label fraud is rare but does happen.

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8. Supplements & Science-Washed Marketing

• Spotting Pseudoscience:
  • The more extreme the claim (or exclamation points!), the less likely it’s true.
  • Experts use nuance, qualifiers, and context. Real science rarely says “always”, “never”, or “toxic!"
    • “Listen to less of what people say, and more of how they say it... Experts don’t talk in black-and-white.”
      (75:05, Layne Norton)
  • Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (Hitchens' Razor).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If collagen has a beneficial effect it’s simply because you’re getting some amino acids compared to nothing. You’re probably just better off if you worry about your hair, skin, and nails—just take whey protein and wear sunscreen."
  (06:18 – Layne Norton)

• "People think it’s their metabolism—it’s almost always intake and activity… GLP-1 drugs don’t speed metabolism, they curb appetite."
  (48:34 – Layne Norton)

• "On diet soda: In randomized control trials, these people lose weight when they switch from sugar-sweetened beverages… They lose more weight than people that substitute with water."
  (22:19 – Layne Norton)

• "Arsenic is natural. Snake venom is natural. The reality is: the dosage makes the poison."
  (29:11 – Layne Norton)

• "Experts don’t talk with fear. They give you data, context, nuance—even devil’s advocate arguments. People who sound very certain—always, never, best, worst—are usually the ones you should not listen to."
  (75:05 – Layne Norton)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Protein Quality (collagen, food bars): 04:11–08:27
• High Protein & Kidneys: 08:27–10:14
• Study Types & Scientific Evidence: 10:14–19:24
• Diet Soda & Aspartame Myths: 20:26–29:06
• Natural/Synthetic & Dose-Dependent Toxicity: 29:11–30:18
• Seed Oils / Oil Processing Myths: 55:25–66:42
• Fasting, Autophagy: 38:21–45:43
• Metabolism and Age: 46:02–48:34
• Food Labels: 71:06–73:55
• Supplements & Marketing Red Flags: 75:05–78:38

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Tone & Style

The tone is straight-shooting, evidence-based, and often irreverently practical. Layne Norton is refreshingly blunt with a dash of humor and zero tolerance for pseudoscience or social media-fueled panic, but he’s never dismissive of genuine confusion or good-faith questions.

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Practical Takeaways

• Don’t obsess over protein source if total intake is high enough – except for collagen; avoid relying on it for muscle
• High-protein diets don’t harm healthy kidneys
• Diet sodas/aspartame are well-studied and safe at normal doses
• Seed oils are not “toxic;” replacing saturated fat with them can improve health markers
• Metabolic slowdown with age is mostly a myth; activity and muscle mass matter most
• Food labels may be off by up to 20%, but consistency in tracking is more important
• Supplements making bold claims with little nuance or “science-wash” are red flags

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Quick Guide: Spotting "Science-Washed" Hype

• Beware of extreme or sensational language ("best ever!", "toxic!", "miracle!")
• Look for nuance, context, qualifiers — real experts don’t sound certain about everything.
• Extraordinary claims need strong, high-quality evidence.
• Emotional fear-based marketing ≠ science.

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For Listeners Who Want the Straight Dope

Jordan and Layne deliver a masterclass in separating nutrition fact from fiction — if you want a data-driven, no-BS guide to decoding diet panic and “healthy eating” hype, this episode offers practical wisdom built to last.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is sponsored in part by strawberry me so i worked with a strawberry me coach recently i ended that call feeling pretty reinvigorated that's a good word for it way more aligned with where i'm headed and why it's so easy to get caught up in the day to day grind but that session reminded me just how powerful it is sometimes you just step back refocus get clear on where you actually want to go coaching is forward looking it's not about what's gone wrong it's about where you want to be and how to actually get there and when it comes to your career that focus can be transformational whether you're trying to move up change paths or find more purpose in what you do a career coach helps you identify your strengths set real goals take concrete steps to reach them even the most successful people work with coaches eric schmidt the former ceo of google he told me on the show episode two hundred one that all top performing executives in silicon valley they all have coaches if the guy who ran google swears by it it's worth paying attention to here's one thing i love about strawberry that you take a quick quiz they match you with a coach who fits your goals and personality and you start building real momentum toward the career.

[B]

That you actually want head to strawberry me jordan to get fifty percent off your first week that's strawberry me jordan stop settling start building the career you.

[A]

Actually want coming up next on the jordan harbinger show aspartame does not cause.

[C]

An insulin or glucose response it does not increase hunger if anything it reduces energy intake no it does not cause type two diabetes it does not cause you to be hungry people will say well they cause cancer yeah if you give it to a lab rat at ten thousand times the dose you should normally consume then yes you see some weird things.

[A]

Welcome to the show i'm jordan harbinger on the jordan harbinger show we decode the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and and those around you our mission is to help you become a better informed more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to ceo's athletes to authors thinkers to performers even the occasional neuroscientist war correspondent russian chess grandmaster or legendary hollywood actor if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show i suggest our episode starter packs these are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation psychology geopolitics disinformation china north korea crime and cults and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show just visit jordanharbinger dot com start or search for us in your spotify app to get started y' all caught me mid crunch on some quest protein chips don't judge me it's field research today on the show not all protein is created equal or is it we're diving deep into the great protein debate with doctor lane norton phd in nutritional sciences world champion powerlifter and and a guy who's probably corrected more bad diet advice on the internet than your entire group chat combined we're tackling questions today such as does it matter if your protein comes from chicken collagen or a scoop of whey from a plastic tub how much protein is too much before your kidneys start an intervention and what does the twenty twenty five evidence actually.

[D]

Say about stuff like diet soda aspartame.

[A]

Those mysterious non nutritive sweeteners that everyone on tiktok ironically swears is melting your brain we'll also bust some of the biggest fitness myths that just refuse to die like whether fasting unlocks autophagy superpowers seed oils causing cancer and a whole lot more lane just took home the twenty twenty four ipf masters one world title at forty three so we'll talk a little bit about longevity recovery and what surprised him about his own physiology after decades of training and coaching oh and if you've ever wondered whether food labels are basically a bunch of lies you know if the government's nutrition guidelines.

[D]

Are secretly big food fan fiction or.

[A]

If you're literally pissing away your money on creatine this episode is for you so crack open a protein shake toss out your detox teas and get ready for a no bs evidence first conversation with the man who lives and dies by the data not diet drama doctor lane norton here we go is all protein created equal if i'm eating quest.

[D]

Protein they don't sponsor me or anything so if you shit all over the product it's fine but if i'm eating these like protein doritos basically from quest.

[A]

Is that kind of as good as drinking a glass of milk or am.

[D]

I delusional when i do that eh.

[C]

You'Re worrying about the margins yeah okay if you get enough total protein in the day that's by far the biggest lever okay and if you get enough total protein at a meal the source becomes much less important basically sources of protein are much more important when you're at lower protein doses but once you get up to like over thirty forty grams in a sitting it's just not gonna matter you've got enough that the.

[D]

Signal gets saturated i see yeah i rarely do that although i did like you know if you go to like.

[A]

All you can eat korean barbecue and.

[D]

You'Re eating i don't know four hundred grams of ribeye you're probably overloading the.

[A]

Circuits a little bit but generally i try to eat a few hours spaced apart but i don't want meat and milk every two three hours i'm an.

[C]

Investor in david protein and people were like this is not as good as whole food i'm like i never said it was supposed to replace whole food but i'm saying like you gotta think about what people replace this stuff with which we'll talk about with seed oils but if you're replacing chicken breast and rice and vegetables with a protein bar i could make the argument that's not as quote unquote good although i think the overall food matrix of your diet is what determines how healthy you are but people they're eating that protein bar instead of getting mcdonald's or takeout or delivery or they're doing it out of convenience i don't know anybody who's like i have the time and the ability to cook but i am choosing to have a protein bar because it just tastes so great and i love it so much like nobody's doing that that's.

[D]

A really good point usually when i eat something like this it's because i have a show or i'm about to.

[A]

Get on a call or i'm in.

[D]

A call and everyone's just gonna have to watch me eat this whatever and get it down because otherwise i don't get enough protein during the day people.

[A]

Are always like how do you eat.

[D]

One hundred eighty grams of protein per day and it's like slowly like the eating of an elephant right no i don't have a steak for lunch and dinner i just eat small little bits throughout the day and if i'm driving or in the passenger seat of a.

[A]

Car i might have to eat protein.

[D]

Chips because i don't want more chocolate i just can't handle it it's disgusting at this point like two protein bars a day three four it's disgusting at.

[A]

A certain point so it doesn't really.

[D]

Matter as much if i'm getting my protein from chicken or powdered collagen in a can as long as i keep a balance of real food and fake.

[C]

Food so to speak well collagen specifically is not a great source of protein especially for muscle for muscle it's actually probably the single worst protein you can possibly consume it's very low in essential amino acids it's very low in leucine which is the amino acid responsible for initiating muscle protein synthesis i know people say it improves the hair skin and nails or like tendons and stuff i would tell people that the data just doesn't make sense there's some human randomized control trials that show better outcomes but it doesn't increase connective tissue synthesis there's a ton of research on this now showing it doesn't increase connective tissue synthesis or at least it doesn't increase it more than whey protein so i think if collagen has a beneficial effect it's simply because you're getting some amino acids compared to nothing and you probably just better off if you worry about your hair skin and nails just take whey protein and wear sunscreen that makes sense.

[A]

Shoot all right because in the last.

[D]

Few months i was like oh i.

[A]

Got this collagen protein and my wife.

[D]

Likes it because hair skin nails like you said and then it's oh okay well i'll just replace my dymatized whey protein with this and yeah back to the other stuff i suppose especially for.

[C]

Muscle tissue yeah pre workout it's pretty horrible protein source there's a study looking at thirty grams of collagen didn't stimulate muscle protein synthesis and i'm not aware of any protein source that thirty grams other than collagen doesn't stimulate muscle protein.

[A]

Synthesis yeah it's pretty poor so i.

[D]

Work out after having a shake these people who work out fasted i don't know who these people are i can't do it i will keel over so i started drinking the collagen before the workout before that i did drink whey protein i guess i'm going back to the whey protein and i never thought.

[A]

About that i just thought it was.

[D]

The same thing i don't know they don't tell you that it doesn't do.

[A]

Anything right that's not of the can.

[C]

And again like it's more about what your overall diet is like that's the much more bigger determinant of health people can get really lost in the margins with this stuff yeah when it specifically comes to muscle metabolism muscle protein synthesis it's just a very poor quality source.

[A]

Of protein what about high protein diets.

[D]

And kidney damage people will say you're.

[A]

Getting one hundred eighty grams of protein per day that's bad for you or my dad did the atkins diet which is not what i'm doing but his doctor said you can only stay on.

[D]

It for a couple of months i.

[A]

Keep hearing that less so in twenty twenty five but certainly even just a.

[D]

Few years ago almost everybody said you're giving yourself kidney damage which i do blood work like every few months i'm.

[C]

Fine so far people unfortunately when something gets published in a textbook people receive it as the word of god and a long time ago in dietetic and nutrition textbooks it was claimed that you want to avoid high protein diets because they might be hard on the kidneys and this was based on some epidemiological studies which is basically just like looking at correlations which is not sufficient to prove causation and also looking at some animal data and i will say like weak pretty weak data at the time but it got published in textbooks and now we have been stuck with that dogma for over fifty years the reality is we now have multiple meta analyses which for those listening who aren't familiar with what a meta analysis is it is a study of studies so you attempt to combine the results from a bunch of different studies with similar designs and look at what is the overall effect so probably the top protein metabolism researcher in the world is a guy named stu phillips and he was the lead on a meta analysis in twenty eighteen that showed that high protein diets do not negatively impact healthy kidneys there was another meta analysis similar to that one looking at human randomized control trials which is what we use to establish.

[D]

Causality i think a lot of people quote studies and then i'll get an.

[A]

Email that says there was this in twenty fifteen by this and then i.

[D]

Chatgpt that and they're like basically there's.

[A]

Reasons you should give certain studies credence.

[D]

And others not or like some like you said epidemiological are not looking at causation and like i don't people like me don't understand really what that means.

[A]

Right off the bat i'm not even looking for that if it's a study.

[D]

I believe it i don't know i.

[C]

Probably shouldn't do that yeah so that is a big issue is when different studies get cited the average person is not equipped most undergraduate scientists aren't equipped a lot of phds quite frankly from what i've seen are not equipped to actually understand what studies should get more weight versus others when it comes to epidemiology what we were talking about is there's two different basic kinds of epidemiology there's what's called cross sectional and then there's what's called longitudinal cross sectional is for example we looked at the incidence of i'm just gonna make up stuff may or may not be accurate we looked at the incidence of type two diabetes amongst people who drank diet soda and we found that people who drink diet soda have higher rates of type two diabetes okay all right the average person hears that and goes see diet soda causes type two diabetes if you are doing a correlation you can have also what's called reverse causality what is it to say that people who have type two diabetes are just more likely to drink diet soda what's to stop that from being the correct association and also there are tons of confounding variables in these because you are not having a treatment in these studies you are just looking at people's behavior and attempting to correlate things and i will tell you most of these correlations are pretty weak in these nutritional epidemiology studies and you can google spurious correlations and you can find correlations that are literally almost perfect one to one and make absolutely no sense i think something was like there's almost a perfect correlation between the number of people who die by becoming trangled in their bedsheets and the us spending on space exploration so basically the.

[D]

More the us spends on space exploration the more people die getting tangled in.

[C]

Their bedsheets or the more people who get tangled and die in their bedsheets the more the us spends on space exploration i could have gotten the specific correlation wrong but stuff like that so.

[D]

It'S clearly unrelated it's just coincidentally correlated.

[C]

I mean we got to think it's unrelated you know i can't imagine what the causality would be there right now i'm not saying that all epidemiology is garbage i'm not saying that at all i'm just saying that you always have to understand that there could be a lot of moderating variables and confounding variables so that's cross sectional then if we look at something like longitudinal which are called cohort studies they're typically rated a higher quality of evidence than cross sectional and the reason is now you're still not having a treatment but you're looking at groups of people and you are tracking those people over time and you're looking at the incidence of different things over time so let's take the same sort of subject we followed people for ten years and we looked at the amount of people who consumed diet soda and the incidence of type two diabetes and we found that people who consumed diet soda were thirty percent more likely to develop type two diabetes okay a little bit stronger evidence because now you are looking at okay if there is no difference at baseline between these groups then it's a little bit stronger argument that maybe there's some causality here because you're tracking them over time however the reverse causality issue still applies and the reason it does is because there may be just inherent characteristics of those people whether it be genetic environmental people don't do things in isolation they tend to do group behaviors so what if people who tend to drink more diet soda just more unhealthy overall like they do more unhealthy overall behaviors you can't establish that from cohort studies so what we do is what's called randomized control trials and it is the randomization the random part of that is very important and people need to understand reason randomization is important is now instead of you self selecting into a group right i choose to drink diet soda versus i choose not to avoid diet soda are health conscious people who just drink water they probably have a bunch of other health promoting behaviors but if we have a randomized control trial where we just take say one hundred people and say all right fifty of you are doing regular soda and fifty of you are doing diet soda and you don't get to choose then what we can assume is that any difference in baseline characteristics amongst the participants will be randomly distributed over the treatment groups and so then if there is a difference between the treatments we can assume that it was because of the treatment and not because of some confounding variable does that make sense.

[D]

Yeah it does and i think a lot of people again myself included until recently didn't really understand that i mean.

[A]

If you take a group of people.

[D]

Like you said that are all from like the same place or the same income bracket or the same ethnicity whatever.

[A]

It is you're going to end up.

[D]

With these correlations where you can't just point to the one thing and say that this is it isn't that kind.

[A]

Of why the bigger the study often.

[D]

The more reliable it is right if you're measuring i don't know the circumference of someone's head you can get a sample size of twenty people and it's potentially going to be off by a lot but if you get one hundred fifty thousand people it's probably going to be a lot more accurate as long as those one hundred fifty thousand people don't all live in nuremberg germany so.

[C]

We call that sampling bias now the issue is when you're dealing with humans you're dealing with human studies you can't get everything all in one study you can't get like high control high subject number and long duration because the reality is i think people have this impression that people that are involved in research studies are just like this group of people who just like sit around twilling their thumbs waiting for research studies to go hey you and they go okay great i'll just put all my entire life on hold you can just poke and prod me no there are people like you there are people like me there are people like your average person who has a life who has stuff to do and the more control you try to put under their life the less likely they are to be included.

[D]

In the study i see so it's like you cannot have caffeine for a year and i'm like i'm out yeah.

[C]

Exactly so great example could be let's say your personal belief was that diet soda was bad for you guess what when you get randomized to the diet soda group you go okay i'm not doing that yeah so the researchers have dropouts and that's why when you look at like epidemiological studies or cohort data you'll see some of them have tens of thousands hundreds hundreds of thousands even millions of participants because especially if it's not very invasive stuff that they're looking at they're just like having a food recall and then looking at body weight for example you can get tons of participants from that but if you're wanting very detailed dietary recalls or you want to say like we're going to provide all the food to participants or let's go really extreme we're going to put them in a metabolic ward where we are tracking every single thing that they eat they can't eat anything outside of up you provide for them who wants to stay in food jail for six.

[D]

Months right yeah the compensation has to be like a lot yeah if you.

[C]

Want a long term study with high subject number it's going to be very free living and very low control if you want high subject number with high control it is going to be very short in duration if you want long duration high control it's going to be very low subject number and if you want all those things together it's going to be in lab rats right right.

[D]

Right right who have no choice the.

[C]

Reality is that this is why i don't get super excited about single studies and i very rarely come out and say this study's good this study's bad data is just data there are bad interpretations of data and there are really bad social media hot takes that i see all the freaking time but the data is just the data and how it's collected the methods that are used how it's analyzed that is going to tell me how much weight i give that for something there's so many scientists who like they'll say we're testing this in their hypothesis or their introduction and i'll read the methods and i'll go that study is not equipped to answer the question that you're asking okay the data i can use it as a piece of a puzzle but it's not telling me what you say it's telling me because it either wasn't collected the right way it wasn't in the right population you didn't have the right control group so when it comes to randomized control trials which is the highest form of evidence because it has high control you just don't get that many that are over twelve weeks long you don't get them with thousands of people you just don't because when you're trying to implement control on people they don't want to be involved in that for very long but that is the highest form.

[A]

Of evidence and it seems like the.

[D]

Problem with that is then you have to extrapolate the answers so over the.

[A]

Three weeks that we did this high.

[D]

Control high random whatever study these people exhibited slightly higher i don't know let's say like a one c right or.

[A]

Some other thing okay so if you do this for years and you have a one c that's that high all.

[D]

The time you're definitely gonna take ten years off your life and it's ah therefore diet soda or whatever is bad for you and it's like well wait a minute if you do that study for three weeks you don't know that because when you do it with rats or if you did it with i don't know a prison population that didn't have a choice unethical whatever let's just say it's hypothetical maybe their a one.

[A]

C goes down after four weeks and.

[D]

It just normalizes but you don't know that because your study was three weeks long so all that extrapolating that you did is actually just bullshit right correct.

[C]

I want to come back to your original question because i was talking about meta analysis but there was a meta analysis of human randomized control trials of protein intake and kidney function showing that again it did not negatively affect kidney function and also i'll circle it back to just give people the quick short answer when it comes to diet soda and say like that was my next.

[D]

Question i was like okay everyone's like so is it bad for you or not god damn it yeah ye so.

[C]

Type two diabetes there was actually this study out of australia that i don't even think it was published yet but i think it was presented at a scientific conference so it hasn't gone through peer review yet but it wouldn't surprise me i think it's something like a thirty eight percent increased risk of type two diabetes amongst people who drink diet soda people go aha okay but the problem is in the human randomized control trials we see the exact opposite people who drink diet soda in place of regular soda lose weight and they have better cardiometabolic health outcomes and they actually lose a little bit more weight than people who substitute with water i think that is likely because if you're used to drinking sugar sweetened beverages and you switch to water you may still be seeking out that sweet taste elsewhere whereas if you sub it with a diet soda maybe that just fills that gap and you're less likely to seek it.

[A]

Out somewhere else anecdotally personally that is.

[D]

Exactly it i grew up drinking pop we called it in michigan i drank a ton of it and nobody was like hey you shouldn't drink two liters of coca cola per day because midwest diet whatever and i got fat surprise i basically cut it out as a teenager because i was like girls don't like dudes with giant guts generally in high school and then i started getting in shape and i was working out and a lot of the guys like don't drink soda and work out then.

[A]

I go to college and it's like.

[D]

An all you can eat buffet or whatever i'm like i love soda but.

[A]

They have diet coke i'll just drink that and i stopped drinking anything with sugar and even to this day i.

[D]

Love a good diet coke i know everyone's you're going to die young whatever.

[A]

That'S why you're here but i don't eat chocolate i don't have desserts i don't do any of that because if i have a sweet tooth craving i.

[D]

Go and get like a diet orange.

[A]

Cream coke zero or whatever have a.

[D]

Few sips of that and i'm like i don't want anything else with sugar in it for the rest of the.

[A]

Day and i drink that throughout the.

[D]

Day and yeah i don't get any.

[A]

Calories from it now if it was super bad for you in some other way that would definitely be a problem.

[D]

But it sounds like there's just not that much evidence for that so specifically.

[C]

With type two diabetes again i've traced this logic all the way out so again we see the opposite thing in the randomized control trial so why would we see opposite the explanation would be reverse causality and that is exactly what it is so if you look at people who drink diet soda the reason that they are more likely to have type two diabetes is not because diet soda causes them to have type two diabetes people who drink diet soda are more likely to be overweight to begin with and they're more likely to make diet attempts so what they are doing is this is a selection bias where they're looking at okay well these people who drink more diet soda yeah because they're trying to lose weight okay and if they compare people who drink diet soda versus people who just drink water who don't drink regular soda diet soda drinkers have a lower overall diet quality and consume more calories on average than people who just drink water now some people may say c diet soda makes you hungry because it releases insulin and it causes a hunger response in the brain that's been roundly debunked there's the only sweetener that's a little bit weird is saccharin which is sweet and low i would tell people like it's probably better than regular sugar on balance but it's the worst of the sweeteners there does seem to be some weird effects with that in terms of some glycemic responses and whatnot but aspartame sucralose monk fruit stevia there was two meta analysis that came out one on those sweeteners overall showing no effect on insulin blood glucose responses any kind of like endocrine hormone basically the conclusion of the study in this again meta analysis of randomized control trials so this is combining our highest quality evidence showing that their takeaway was it has the same effects as water and then there was one recently looking at aspartame and insulin secretion hunger responses and basically showed the same thing aspartame does not cause an insulin or glucose response it does not increase hunger if anything it reduces energy intake so no it does not cause type two diabetes it does not cause you to be hungry if it did cause you to be hungry then that would actually suggest that these artificial sweeteners are great fat burners because in randomized controlled trials these people lose weight when they switch from sugar sweetened beverages to artificially sweetened beverages and they lose more weight than people that consume water in place of sugar sweetened beverages so if you're going to say that the diet soda made you hungry and you were eating more calories but they still lost weight then doesn't that mean that they're great fat burners so this logic falls apart people will say well they cause cancer yeah if you give it to a lab rat at ten thousand times the dose you should normally consume then yes you see some weird things but let's take aspartame for example because that's one of the most tested compounds in history aspartame is a dipeptide two amino acids phenylalanine and aspartic acid combined with a methyl ester group it is metabolized into three things it is metabolized into phenylalanine aspartic acid both of which are amino acids it's so funny to see these graphics some of these social media people be like oh phenylalanine is a neurotoxin yeah if you apply it directly to brain cells it's a neurotoxin we have this thing called the blood brain barrier and oh by the way you get thirty times more phenylalanine in a steak if you're worried about the amino acids that are literally in every protein you consume that you get twenty to thirty times more of in any protein source then why are you worried about diet soda if you're not worried about those protein sources so then there's other thing it's metabolized into is methanol people go aha see it's the methanol okay well let's break this down the reason that this is important to understand aspartame has never in any research study been shown to enter the bloodstream or be found in any tissue it is rapidly and completely metabolized into those three components so if it is bad for you it is exerting its effects through one of those three things now i think we can just set the amino acids to the side because like i said if you're worried about those then you gotta be worried about any protein intake whatsoever so let's look at the methanol first of all if we look at the things that aspartame is claimed to do to you that's very different than the side effects from too much methanol which is basically like central nervous toxicity cardiopulmonary failure and death and blindness methanol itself is not necessarily toxic but it's metabolized into formate or formic acid which is toxic now in a study looking at aspartame consumption they gave what would have been the equivalent of twenty six diet cokes over an eight hour period which i think even the highest consumers of diet soda probably aren't hitting that mark there.

[A]

Were a couple guys in law school.

[D]

Who i think were damn close but.

[A]

Other than that during finals week other.

[D]

Than that i think we're probably okay.

[C]

And they noted that there was no real increase in blood methanol levels no increase in the blood levels of formic acid or formate you get more methanol in a glass of orange juice or tomato juice quite a bit more methanol you get more methanol in a lot of servings of fruits and vegetables and yet fruits and vegetables are associated with better overall metabolic health and once again even at very high doses of aspartame intake you don't see rises in methanol now there was one study ravens and rats and they looked at a massive dose basically the equivalent of once you equate for human equivalent dosing in animals a massive dose equivalent to about a hundred diet cokes at one time which by the way you'd actually die from electrolyte dilution from drinking that much fluid before you would even get these negative effects but i digress anyways in that study they did note in blood levels of methanol but no rise in formate so even that was not sufficient to take those blood levels up enough to get to a level of formate that would cause negative effects and again even if it did people say well what about over time you're thinking about bioaccumulation right there's more discussion about microplastics now there's things like lead mercury those things take a long time to process out of the body they can accumulate okay fair enough methanol is processed out of your body in hours so if it is exerting these negative effects it has to be acute and again if aspartame's causing cancer please explain how it's doing this and whenever i bring this to people once i go through all this data they just go to whoa it's.

[D]

Man made synthetic right the appeal to nature fallacy right that natural things are.

[C]

Better yeah the naturalism fallacy which i'll tell you arsenic's natural snake venom is natural a lot of poisonous plants are.

[D]

Natural cyanide in the apple seeds no one stays away from apples because of.

[A]

That and even in apple juice i.

[D]

Don'T think they bother taking the seeds out they just squash it because there's a little bit of cyanide in your apple juice whatever man you'll be fine.

[C]

And the reality is like when it comes to toxicity the dosage makes the poison you can have something that is thought of as a very toxic compound if it's at a low enough dose you will be okay it won't have negative effects you could also have something that people view as being inert take water good old dihydrogen monoxide if you drink around ten times the amount of water that's recommended you could actually die from electrolyte dilution anything can be toxic at a high enough dose what is.

[A]

That called again the ld fifty or the rd fifty you know what i'm.

[C]

Talking about yeah so ld fifty is basically like the dosage of a compound that will kill approximately fifty percent of the population there's a bell curve response.

[A]

Speaking of getting enough protein look i'm not saying you need to eat like lane norton to hit your goals but if your idea of a balanced diet is three cold brews in a protein bar that tastes like drywall you might want to rethink that personally i'm team whatever doesn't make me chew for ten minutes straight now chew on this we'll be right back this episode is sponsored in part by quilt mind hardly anybody in the professional world actually posts on linkedin heck for many years i didn't bother either which means if you do you actually stand out kind of instantly.

[D]

It'S one of the easiest visibility wins.

[A]

Out there every time i post something.

[D]

Even something simple i get a flood.

[A]

Of dm's people i haven't talked to in years pop up like hey man that story really hit home and that's kind of the magic of it you stay top of mind so when opportunities come up podcasts partnerships ad sponsorships interviews speaking gigs they think of you that's not luck that's just visibility now here's where quilt mind comes in they make this whole process effortless they help you turn your ideas experiences and insights into short punchy posts that actually get engagement it's like having your own ghostwriter who gets your voice and it keeps you consistently active without burning hours every single week spending money on something like this is not vanity originally i was kind of like eh who cares i don't.

[D]

Need a be an influencer but actually.

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It'S about staying relevant we spend money on gym memberships to look good physically stay in shape why wouldn't you invest in your professional presence as well so if you've ever thought hey i should post more but you never do quilt mind is doing the heavy lifting it's really the difference between thinking about it and actually doing it and the payoff could be way bigger than you expect so for example i got one speaking.

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Gig which pays for quilt mind for.

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Like years so it's really easy to get roi from this if you're curious what i'm sharing look me up on linkedin and if you're interested for yourself shoot me a message or you can reach out to jordanaudiencewiltmind dot com that's jordanaudience at q u i l t m i n dcom this episode is also sponsored by article buying furniture is a big decision you want something that fits your space your style and you'll actually love for years to come that's why i'm such a fan of article they make it effortless to create a stylish home that feels high end but doesn't come with a high end price tag when we were updating our guest bedroom we got an article upholstered storage bed it's one of our favorite pieces in the house the quality is immediately obvious the craftsmanship is clean the materials feel solid it just has that built to last sturdiness that you rarely find anymore even the delivery was impressive it arrived in perfect condition mostly assembled the team was super professional what i really love about article is how easy it is to find your style you're not stuck scrolling through thousands of random options they've curated everything into beautiful cohesive collections whether your vibe is mid century modern coastal or scandi inspired scandinavian i guess everything just works together effortlessly plus shipping.

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Offering our listeners fifty dollars off your first purchase of dollar one hundred or more to claim visit article dot com jordan and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout that's article dot com jordan for dollar fifty off your first purchase of dollar one hundred or more.

[A]

If you're wondering how i managed to book all these great authors thinkers creators scientists every week it is because of my network the circle of people i know like and trust and i'm also teaching you how to build your network for free over at sixminutenetworking dot com this is not about selling people things it's not schmoozy it's very down to.

[D]

Earth it's about connecting and developing real.

[A]

Relationships with other people in a systemized way that doesn't take a ton of time six minutes a day is really all it takes and many of the guests on the show subscribe they contribute to the course come join us you'll be in smart company where you belong again the course is free no shenanigans whatsoever promise at sixminutenetworking dot com now back to lane norton i remember neil.

[D]

Degrasse tyson was on talking about we did it with ben and jerry's or.

[A]

Something because i was like what's that.

[D]

Pesticide that everyone freaks out and it's.

[A]

Like they use yeah they use glyphosate and then it goes in here and then it goes in there and in order to eat enough ben and jerry.

[D]

Or whatever ice cream it was to get enough glyphosate from the vanilla beans or whatever it is you would have.

[A]

To eat so much of this you would be dead from the sugar before.

[D]

You had enough of that pesticide in your system like not even close like.

[A]

It would take you like three years.

[D]

Of only eating ice cream to get enough glyphosate and then you got other.

[C]

Problems yeah well then you have the gary breakers of the world saying you want to avoid synthetic vitamin b twelve because it has it's cyanocobalamin and the cyano stands for cyanide so i did the calculation on this to hit the ld fifty of cyanide from cyanocombalin which by the way you still wouldn't be toxic because cyanide is only dangerous people don't understand there's a difference between a free form of a chemical and a bonded form of a chemical okay so for example chloride gas kill you sodium chloride that's salt let's put it on.

[D]

Our food right exactly so these things.

[C]

Are not the same bonded cyanocobalamin the cyanide group is totally stable and not dangerous at all now even if it was let's say it actually was i think he was talking about celsius drinks maybe that was that but whatever it was you would have needed forty three thousand servings at one time to hit the ld fifty meanwhile it's got caffeine.

[D]

In it so you're dead good luck.

[C]

Or if it was capsules can you imagine taking forty three thousand capsules at one time i mean you'd probably like.

[D]

Rip your inside apart be like something out of saw three yeah.

[C]

On the.

[A]

Other side of all this what's one food that most people think is healthy.

[D]

But you think it's overrated or counterproductive.

[A]

What are people sort of hung up.

[D]

On where you're like ah give it.

[C]

Up who cares what's overhyped right now is like bone broth how about that.

[D]

Sure yeah i love by the way i love bone broth i get it from this korean place that makes this amazing soup and i can eat it.

[A]

Every day but yeah people are obsessed.

[D]

With it you're right yeah hey if.

[C]

You like the way it tastes and you like to have it totally fine yeah there's some vitamins and minerals in it but it's not like this panacea of stuff and yeah there's some collagen in there but already talked about collagen a little bit but hey if you like the way it tastes by all means i don't think it's necessarily bad for you or anything and this is the problem that a lot of people just the society we live in now it's so hard to have these conversations because everything is so polarizing and so politicized right now i just put out a video today talking about hey here's the data on acetaminophen and why i think it's very unlikely that it has any contribution to autism shut up libtard yeah right yeah yeah exactly me i get accused of being a liberal and i'm like me who comes from indiana a red state whose entire family is conservatives but yeah if i don't agree with every single thing that the conservative party says now it's you're a libtard.

[D]

Right you're rooting against your own team that's what the problem is it's become teamified or gamified and now you're on the wrong team because you're not toeing the line when it comes to tylenol or whatever i didn't even catch that the tylenol thing my wife had to.

[C]

Tell me about it yeah and i'm like listen bullshit is bullshit i don't care who's shoveling it when people on the other side of the aisle say dumb stuff nutritionally i'm gonna call it out and i do call it out when it comes to these arguments if i say something like hey bone broth i think it's overrated people say you you're saying it's bad for you no never said that didn't say that or if i say like for example diet soda is a healthy substitute compared to sugar sweetened beverages and people go you're saying diet soda is healthy i said in place of okay now i could make a strong argument that it is healthy but i won't do that people say you're defending or encouraging diet soda use stuff like that's not what i said why don't you go back and just actually listen to what i said instead of having a two year old emotional temper tantrum about something that doesn't align with your personal belief system i.

[D]

Think that's well said and it's very tough to get people to take in information that comes from a source they don't like that's really tough i try.

[A]

To manage that on this podcast it's.

[D]

Very tough though i mean because now any information that people don't like you're automatically off the team that's a bigger problem and it's probably a different episode of the show honestly but want to stay on food and nutrition because we're.

[A]

On fire here i'm curious about autophagy right and fasting a lot of people are like look man there's no magic.

[D]

To fasting it's fancy calorie reduction and then other people are like no there.

[A]

Is magic it's weak cells dying that.

[D]

Would normally cause cancer can you shed.

[A]

Some light on this because i honestly.

[D]

I don't know what's true i know what sounds true but that doesn't mean.

[C]

Anything so again whenever we are approaching a question we always have to ask compared to what so does fasting increase autophagy yes but compared to what first of all we have to back up because the way people like mindy peltz and some of these people who talk about this stuff which by the way she has no scientific training whatsoever just going to throw that out there they'll say insert number of hours the autophagy switch flips on and this happens so the body doesn't actually work like that these processes are always happening these things are always going on now the relative rates can change but there is no switch where you hit a certain point body doesn't work like that it doesn't make sense that it would ever work like that now if you fast over time autophagy which is lysosomal protein degradation you have in your cells these organelles called lysosomes they can engulf different cellular components and then they have a bunch of proteases and enzymes inside of them to chew them up they take whole proteins and turn them into individual amino acids which can then be recycled and used for different stuff so elements of what they are saying is true autophagy can go up and also autophagy is involved in remodeling and breaking down old or misfolded cellular components that is true by the way autophagy is not always a good thing autophagy is elevated in various cancers it's how various cancers are able to feed themselves autophagies elevated in wasting diseases so it's not always a good thing if i could impress anything upon people it would be to stop trying to get things to fit into black and white boxes there very few things are either blanketly good or blanketly bad and in the human body i want you to consider a lot of these things that you consider bad or unhealthy if they were bad for us why would we evolve to have those systems if they were going to kill us faster why in the hell would they be passed down from generation to generation and conserved because if they killed the organism faster they would be bred out of the population that is just plain old natural selection because nothing is good or bad in the human body any system if it's dysregulated can have a negative effect but those systems all exist for a reason like cortisol everybody thinks cortisol is bad for you take cortisol completely away and that's called addison's disease and it's not good lot of problems with that yeah one of my.

[D]

Friend'S kids has that actually he's got to take hormones i believe because he doesn't prednisone most likely yeah he's a chill kid and i don't ask too many questions but i know he doesn't have cortisol and my friend's like he's.

[A]

So chill he doesn't have cortisol but.

[D]

It'S actually not that cool there's a lot of medication involved basically yeah because.

[C]

Your body evolved to have these systems so back to autophagy not always a good thing but it exists for a reason and it does serve a purpose some of which may have benefits now what happens when you are not eating well you are in a negative energy balance now if you're not eating for say sixteen hours eighteen hours you're in a negative energy balance but what happens in the last six or eight hours because a lot of these fasting people they go well it's not about weight loss has nothing to do with weight loss okay so let's take two people right one person's eating three thousand calories a day and let's say that's their maintenance they don't fast they just kind of eat throughout the day the other person fasts for let's just say they eat one meal a day three thousand calories at one meal right because they want to get maximal autophagy when they are fasting are their rates of autophagy greater than the people who are continuously feeding probably but guess what happens when they have that massive meal autophagy is going to go way down it is going to very much suppress autophagy and protein breakdown and if we look at the area under the curve the question is is the area under the curve different over a twenty four hour period or over a week do we see differences i usually don't put a ton of weight in single studies but this was a well done study so they looked at autophagy they looked at other things too including weight loss fat loss lean mass with alternate day fasting and the way they did this was they had one group so they ate at seventy five percent of their normal maintenance calories so they were in a twenty five percent calorie deficit doing alternate day fasting which means that one day they did zero the next day they did one hundred fifty so one hundred fifty percent above their maintenance on another day and they alternated those days they had another group that was just did seventy five percent calorie restriction each day and then they had another group that did alternate day fasting but they did at maintenance overall so they did two hundred percent one day zero percent the next day so that overall over the course of the week they're at maintenance what they found was that autophagy was not different between any of the groups i feel very confident in saying that the autophagy effect is a calorie effect if you eat less calories you have higher rates of autophagy and if we look at the research data on longevity on risk of cancer all these sorts of things again here's the issue with design limitations you can't conduct a human randomized control trial looking at longevity because you're going to go to one group of people who are going to control this until you die second off if you're in the trial aren't you going to go so which group do you think is going to live longer to the researchers you know what i mean like you can't ethically do that right but they have done it in rodents and probably the best studies we have are in rhesus monkeys which are closer in proximity to humans and human physiology and some of the headlines years ago calorie restriction improves longevity i'm sure you've heard this research as well i've read this research and i am very well familiar with animal study design because my research was in animals so when they say calorie restriction in animals what they're actually referring to is typically you let animals just eat however much they want we call that ad libitum and then if you want to do restriction you pull back whatever they normally eat by a certain percentage so in these studies they pull thirty percent out of their normal diets and they call it calorie restriction calorie restricted over the course of their life but they weren't calorie restricted over the course of their life because if they were they would just keep losing weight indefinitely until they starve to death in most of these studies is no weight change or a small period of weight loss followed by weight stabilization guess what animals do in captivity they overeat because they're bored so what you're actually doing is just preventing them from becoming overweight or obese from having too much body fat so in my opinion a lot of this data is basically explained by hey if you maintain a normal healthy body fat level you're getting the.

[D]

Benefits of longevity animals in captivity overeating because they're bored just sounds like me in the pandemic during the pandemic it was like yeah all right that was the beginning of my weight loss journey because i was like i'm getting fatter it's really obvious there's one way to handle this speaking of which a lot.

[A]

Of people said no it's just because.

[D]

You'Re older and your metabolism slowed down so this is maybe a dumb question.

[A]

But is it true that people's metabolism slows down as they age or are.

[D]

We just moving less than we did as kids because we're sitting at a freaking desk all day everybody's going to.

[C]

Hate the answer to this question so first of all probably one of the best studies we have on this is a study from duke university from herman poncer's lab who's one of the foremost experts on energy metabolism looking at total daily energy expenditure which we have to define our terms when people say metabolism or metabolic rate that is your resting energy expenditure or your bmr which is basically how much does it cost just to run your body's basic energy systems it's not exercise it's not activity it's none of that it's what is the cost of if you just laid down and breathed for twenty four hours how many calories would that take now what herman looked at was total daily energy expenditure which is what is everything right your resting energy expenditure the cost of extracting energy from the food you eat called thermic effect of food your physical activity exercise your spontaneous movement called non exercise activity thermogenesis or neat what do all these things sum up to like your calorie burn your calorie expenditure the whole thing on a daily basis and he showed that it rises obviously in childhood up to adulthood then from about age twenty till about age sixty is completely stable in this large cohort of people and then after age sixty it starts to slowly decline but it's less than one percent decline per year and it's also by the way completely explained by the fact that people just become less active and have less lean mass as they get older when you normalize for lean mass most of the stuff goes away and if we looked at bmr specifically so just the basal metabolic rate literally does not change even to elderly like seventy eighty now your absolute resting energy expenditure absolute metabolic rate does decline because you lose lean mass but if we normalize your metabolic rate to your lean mass we don't see any differences and that goes for people with pcos people with type two diabetes actually people with type two diabetes believe it or not have slightly higher metabolic rates if anything even when standardized for lean mass people who are overweight or obese when you standardize for lean mass no difference in energy expenditure or metabolic rate.

[A]

So we want to keep working out.

[D]

Basically that's the lesson here is keep working out so you keep your lean.

[C]

Mass probably the biggest proof of this the most effective obesity treatments in the history of mankind glp one mimetics like ozempic like tirzepatide they do not increase energy expenditure they do not they have no effect on energy expenditure what they are is powerful appetite suppressants people who are like my metabolism it's just my metabolism i need to use ozempic i hate to tell you this if it's your metabolism ozempic isn't gonna do anything for you and the reality is that people don't wanna admit that they eat too much for their given level of energy expenditure because that feels like somebody's saying it's your fault and i could go into a lot more detail about why it's more complicated than the fault of the individual when it comes to obesity obese people are more likely to have especially obese women more likely to have sexual trauma in their past assault trauma in their past people who are obese have a greater reward from food they have less sensitivity to satiety signals.

[A]

There'S differences people will go you're fat shaming and honestly one thing that i.

[D]

Think i've just changed my mind or maybe just learned is a better term for it in the last five or.

[A]

Ten years is i really think there's just a difference because when i had.

[D]

To go on a diet for ten months i was like okay and i went on a diet for ten months and i ate chipotle for lunch or similar and then i had turkey breast for dinner every day for ten months and i had a protein shake for breakfast and i just did that for.

[A]

Ten months and it didn't bother me that much but it's not like i'm so good i have such good willpower i just don't get that much of a dopamine hit from like eating i don't care as much i feel full when i'm full and other people they don't have that not that they don't have willpower it's a completely different pull.

[D]

For them to eat something and then.

[A]

Get a reward from it than it is for me and we can't compare that ever there's no way to compare that so i can never put myself in the brain of somebody else who's.

[D]

One hundred pounds overweight and be like.

[A]

Dude just eat less man it's so easy he will never understand how not.

[D]

Hard it is for me to just eat turkey breast for ten straight months out of a package because that's a.

[A]

Completely alien thing i don't want to excuse everything but i really do think there's like a different level of people feeling the pull and people feeling full.

[C]

Like you said people have difficulty holding what they feel are two seemingly opposing things in each hand at the same time which is obesity is likely not completely the fault of the individual but also there is a personal accountability and responsibility aspect to fixing the problem it may not be your fault that it happened but it will be your responsibility to try to change things and so i think people try to equate responsibility and fairness and the reality is though no everybody has in one way or another some things that are unfair or happen to them but regardless of what happens you have to take the responsibility to try and change it for the better and so i think people have trouble reconciling those things you know what.

[A]

I love about lane he doesn't just believe in science he lives it which is kind of my vibe too whether it's nutrition psychology or picking podcast sponsors that don't make me lose brain cells when i read the copy we'll be right back this episode is sponsored in part by betterhelp this time of year can feel a little heavy the days get shorter it's dark before dinner everyone's kind of running like medium low battery lately i've been trying to be more intentional about reaching out to friends texting.

[D]

People i haven't talked to in a.

[A]

While and every single time i walk away thinking man why didn't i do that sooner therapy is kind of like that too it can feel like a big step to reach out but once you do it's almost always worth it betterhelp makes that step easier you just fill out a quick questionnaire they match you with a licensed therapist who fits what you need they've been doing this for over a decade they've got more than thirty thousand therapists and if the match isn't quite right you can switch anytime no awkwardness no waiting over five million people have used betterhelp and the reviews are incredible and an average of.

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Four point nine out of five for.

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Live sessions i use betterhelp because it.

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Works this month don't wait to reach out whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself betterhelp makes it easier to take that first step our listeners get ten percent off their first month at betterhelp dot com jordan that's better h e l p dot com jordan this episode.

[A]

Is sponsored in part by airbnb we just booked our very first cruise with the kids and we could not be more excited seriously can spring break get here any faster than the kids are already bouncing off the walls and honestly i will too once i see those water slides and all the onboard activities it's basically a floating adventure playground and it feels like the perfect mix of relaxation for us and exploration for them but here's the thing while we're out at sea our home back on land just sitting empty and that's when it hit me why let it sit unused when i could actually have it work for us by hosting it on airbnb with their co host network you can even hire a local pro to help take care of everything from guest messages to check ins to so you're not trying to juggle it all from the middle of the ocean and here's the best part we get to enjoy the cruise create these family memories and know that our place was earning a little extra while we were away so if you've got a spot that just sits empty while you're away why not let it work for you find a co host at airbnb dot com host this episode is also sponsored in part by ag one i get regular blood work to keep tabs on my nutrition and it is confirmed no deficiencies here anymore one scoop of ag one with water every day helps me stay dialed in ag one next gen is a daily health drink that is clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps you might be thinking i eat pretty healthy i don't need that let's be real nobody hits one hundred percent every day especially during the holidays think of ag one as your all in one nutritional insurance packed with vitamins and minerals pre and probiotics superfoods all in one convenient scoop ag one makes it easy to build a healthy habit that actually sticks i like to think of nutrients like ingredients in a recipe if you're missing even a little salt yeah it still works just not quite right your body's the same way each vitamin and mineral plays a role in energy immunity overall balance and when one is off everything can feel a little bit off that's why i take it every day even if you're not a supplement person ag one is a simple investment in your health head to drinkag.

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One dot com jordan to get a free welcome kit with an ag one flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin d three k two when you first subscribe that's drinkag one dot com jordan.

[A]

If you liked this episode of the show i invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors they make the show possible all the deals discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger dot com deals if you can't remember the name of a sponsor or you can't find the code email us we are happy to surface codes for you yes it is that important that you support those who support the show now for the rest of my conversation with lane norton.

[D]

We see this even in criminal law like you see these people who come from terrible backgrounds we still put them in prison because they're dangerous for society but we don't rehabilitate them right we blame them for having a moral fault for being born into a gang life with no parents right and it's i don't know how effective that's going to be but again like you said not your fault but also your responsibility right we that's why we love stories of redemption anyway it's a completely different podcast i think i should probably switch gears here.

[A]

What'S one thing you used to eat.

[D]

Regularly that you completely avoid now based on either new or new ish science and don't ruin cheetos for me or.

[C]

We'Re done i don't think there's anything that i completely avoid i eat less saturated fat now it's so funny now because i'm known as a pro seed oil guy now which is not my.

[D]

Position that's one of my questions too like are these bad for you i.

[C]

Came from a low carb lab the lab i was in for graduate school was known as being lower carb and my belief in graduate school was saturated fat intake it's got a bad rap doesn't matter ldl cholesterol doesn't matter and over time seeing enough data i changed my mind because i think it does matter but i don't just say oh i never eat saturated fat i still have bacon sometimes and i'll still have a fatty steak here and there and i don't like completely avoid it i try to limit it as much as i reasonably can i just don't get that scared about stuff dosage makes the poison and so i just think it's funny that these crazy anti seed oil people that they somehow think that i'm in the pocket of like big plant oil when in reality like my research let's who funded my research who's actually given me money the national dairy council the egg nutrition board and the national cattlemen's beef association if anyone has a bias towards saturated fat it's me okay.

[D]

Yeah not a plant in sight so.

[A]

Is there any truth to the claim that seed oils cause cancer hormonal issues.

[D]

Whatever it was or is that just internet noise all right so i'm i'm.

[C]

Going to take the arguments as i understand them from the anti sedol people and point out where the evidence actually says so the arguments that exist are something like the following there's the very mechanistic argument that people like paul saldino make that it's linoleic acid this polyunsaturated fat can be oxidized more easily and that oxidation is going to cause damage to your blood vessels it's going to cause inflammation and that inflammation is going to cause heart disease and cancer okay all right keep that in mind put it to the side i'm going to come back to it then there's the people that go the processing of these oils is what's causing it they're heated and it caused them to oxidize and they're rancid and the processing is processed with hexane industrial solvent and it's processed with sodium hydroxide and they scare you with all that stuff i could make anything sound scary if i wanted to tell you how it was processed then the last one is if you look at the rise in obesity and the issues with metabolic health it associates with the increase in seed oil consumption and it does but we have to ask ourselves okay is that a calorie effect people just adding oil to stuff or oils being present in ultra processed foods so let's go top level if we tell people eat more polyunsaturated fats mostly from seed oils things like sunflower oil safflower oil canola oil soybean oil if we tell them in a one to one ratio we want you to sub in polyunsaturated fats from these seed oils versus saturated fats what happens and the worst case scenario is a neutral effect on metabolic health most studies or i'll say it depends on the metric but for sure polyunsaturated fats lower ldl cholesterol compared to saturated fat now the anti sedol people will deny that ldl cholesterol makes the difference and i'll explain why they're wrong but also if you overfeed polyunsaturated fats from i think it was sunflower oil versus saturated fat from say i forget the source but they overfed both of these things both increased the levels of liver fat which liver fat is a strong predictor of overall metabolic health and insulin sensitivity saturated fat increased liver fat seventy percent more the liver fat in these people went up by eighty six percent okay from saturated fat overfeeding if you look at insulin sensitivity either a neutral or positive effect from subbing in polyunsaturated fats in place of saturated fat you will not find a study that i'm aware of showing improvements in actual insulin sensitivity by subbing in saturated fat for polyunsaturated fat you won't find the reverse inflammation either neutral or positive effect by subbing in polyunsaturated fats endothelial function either neutral or positive effects okay so those are the human randomized control trials so okay where's this effect of inflammation that you're talking about not happening this metabolic health effect that you're talking about it's not happening we're not seeing that in fact we're actually seeing the opposite from what your hypothesis would suggest now let's take the processing argument so hexane is used as a solvent to remove impurities from seed oils the reason it is used is because it is a nonpolar solvent and seed oils oil is nonpolar and so if you want to pull impurities out you have to use another nonpolar solvent now the reason they use hexane is because it has a very low boiling point sixty nine degrees celsius so once they put it through the solvent they boil off the hexane the amount of hexane that is left in almost half of seed oil products is not even detectable via the methods we have to detect hexane it's so low you can't even detect it the ones that have detectable levels of hexane it's in the parts per million and far below the threshold of what would cause any kind of negative effects and now people go if it's bad in a high dose it's bad in a low dose okay well then you got to make the same thing.

[D]

For water yeah or apple seed cyanide everything else that we just talked about yeah exactly that's so interesting they don't.

[C]

Like to have logic symmetrically applied they only like to apply it asymmetrically but you see this with paul saladino he'll say all epidemiology is garbage and then he'll get on the joe rogan podcast and cite multiple epidemiological studies that fit with his narrative he literally has a video that says all epidemiology is garbage if you are saying it is garbage then you have to throw it out you cannot use it when it benefits you and then disregard it when it doesn't you can't pick and choose that way you have to be symmetrical in how you apply that logic so hexane and i looked for studies for hexane toxicity i couldn't find them in humans they basically like they got negative side effects i really couldn't find any like i think there was one person they said that might have died from drinking like a ton like literally taking hexane.

[D]

And drinking interesting choice he ran out.

[C]

Of diet soda now sodium hydroxide again the processing of these compounds through the processing turns into sodium and water and then they just get rid of it there's no sodium hydroxide that's left over in the product or the the amount is so small it's not going to cause you any issues then the heating portion of it heating oils frying with oils can be a problem especially if you're frying in a very low amount of oil the amount of time it takes to oxidize oil in say like i believe it was like looking at a centimeter of oil versus four centimeters it's like a five x you need like five times longer to actually see oxidation of the oil when you have a bigger amount that you're frying in.

[D]

Which oils are safe to use then and which ones should we avoid for.

[C]

Cooking well the reality is that you can oxidize any oil if you have a small amount of it and you heat it long enough okay and you repeated like frying stuff repeatedly in oil over time yeah you're gonna have some oxidized end products but i would argue like okay the bigger problem is that you're eating a lot of fried food right that's the bigger problem okay but spraying canola oil on your pan and heating it for a few minutes while you like saute something not nearly long enough to cause any significant amount of oxidation the processing they show that like soybean oil which i think is moderate in its ability to be oxidized soybean oil you have to heat it at like over four hundred fifty degrees for like more than two or three hours for you to start to see any kind of significant amount of oxidation above one percent of the oil or any kind of negative byproducts begin accumulating so the processing actually of these oils removes impurities and removes oxidized components that's part of what the processing does you actually have less oxidized components because of the processing and then people do the whole scaring they used it as motor oil yeah well they use beef tallow as industrial lubricant too so if you want to use that line of logic fine but i can scare you over that's.

[D]

True used to be in the lights they used to put it in the lights oh you're eating lamp fluid yeah okay it's attached to a steak it's delicious yeah it's all sort of fear mongering it's important to note like some of the names you're mentioning a lot of these people they make a lot of money selling supplements that don't have this thing in it that they say is demonized they're selling seminars on how to live this way or they have a special diet that you have to follow and a book that goes with it all that stuff well i don't.

[C]

Sell seed oils so there's that yeah you don't sell seeds i don't make any money off seed oil not yet.

[A]

I'M going to email you but our seed oil side hustle after this podcast.

[C]

Exactly people like how much is big pharma paying you i'm like not nearly enough and then how much is big seed oil paying you i'm like oh man i wish i wish yeah are they listening geez the final component of that is the mechanistic component linoleic acid which is one of the most common fatty acids for a lot of these oils more prone to oxidation and that's going to cause inflammation linoleic acid causes inflammation if you look at linoleic acid consumption in the us or in western societies it's gone up by like seventy five fold over the last one hundred fifty years and they go see it's got to be the linoleic acid okay two things what happens in populations where they consume more linoleic acid versus less and if we feed people linoleic acid what happens okay so there's large cohorts of millions of people showing that basically there is a linear association between dietary linoleic acid consumption and the risk of heart disease there's a linear reduction in heart disease the more linoleic acid people eat and the anti sedol crowd will say well that's dietary recall logs you can't rely on those okay they've also done tissue sampling because the fatty acid composition of your diet will be reflected in the fatty acid composition of your adipose and your plasma they've done those tissue samples and shown that people with more linoleic acid in their tissues and plasma have lower rates of heart disease so just on that alone your entire hypothesis is debunked like we don't even need to go any further into it but let's do it so one of the things paul saldino says not about the ldl cholesterol it's about the oxidized ldl cholesterol that's what you have to worry about because oxidized ldl cholesterol is way worse for you and on a mechanistic level he is correct oxidized ldl is more easily taken up by the.

[A]

Endothelium what is that endothelium what is.

[C]

That that's the lining that's like the cells that line your blood vessels that's true but i'm going to get back to why you don't have to worry about that and he'll say linoleic acid or polyunsaturated fats in ldl are easier to oxidize also true now let me explain why it doesn't matter so i dug into this very deeply first of all regular ldl can penetrate the endothelium and once ldl penetrates the endothelium and it's concentration driven so people with higher ldl levels get more ldl going into the endothelium once it is in the endothelium all ldl particles contain a lipoprotein called apolipoprotein b each ldl particle has one that apob gets enzymatically modified once it's inside the endothelium and it causes that ldl molecule to be retained because of the modification and once in the endothelium that ldl starts to be oxidized okay that oxidation recruits macrophages and inflammation to the site because it's an injury and that causes over time foam cells to form and eventually leads to plaque and blockage hang on lane you just said linoleic acid can be more easily oxidized here's the rub if you consume more linoleic acid your ldl concentrations go down so you're getting less ldl penetrating the endothelium that can even be oxidized at all but what about oxidized ldl in the bloodstream because that's a big argument that paul makes well it's the oxidized ldl in the blood oxidized ldl in the blood is present but it is actually reflective and they have shown this in studies it's reflective of spillover from the tissues oxidized ldl that has been already oxidized in the endothelium and there's so much of it that it's starting to spill over into the bloodstream it's not oxidized hardly at all in the bloodstream because your bloodstream has antioxidants in it that prevent the oxidation of this and they have shown this in vitro in animal studies they have shown it over and over the amount of ldl that gets oxidized in the bloodstream is infinitely small compared to what gets oxidized inside the endothelium so if you want to prevent ldl oxidation you are better off trying to drop your overall ldl levels so that you're not getting so much going into the endothelium because in the endothelium they're not exactly sure where but in the microenvironment there they believe at some point you have less of these antioxidants around and that is when those polyunsaturated fats in the ldl particle can begin to becoming oxidized and again they're looking at it as oxidized ldl is causing these problems yeah oxidized ldl in the plasma is a problem but it's not coming from the plasma to any appreciable degree it's coming because you've already oxidized so much ldl inside the endothelium that it's beginning to trickle out into the bloodstream by that time you're looking at oxidized ldls like saying yes it's atherogenic but no more atherogenic than regular ldl and it's kind of like being like fire extinguishers are causing the fire because when there's a fire there's a fire extinguisher it's more reflective of the downstream rather than the upstream so again linoleic acid reduces this risk because consuming polyunsaturated fats like linoleic acid reduces your overall ldl levels which means less is gonna get into the endothelium and get oxidized in the first place and there's one more kind of mechanism they use which is linoleic acid is a precursor to arachidonic acid arachidonic acid is a precursor to prostaglandins which are pro inflammatory compounds and so they could the a equals b b c c equals d they've already shown that increasing linoleic acid consumption does not increase arachidonic acid formation and it does not increase prostaglandin formation so we can just again at every single level of their argument it has been debunked i love this.

[D]

This is a very thorough explanation are food labels essentially lying to us not like a conspiracy but how accurate is the four hundred calorie energy bar label.

[A]

Is there a tolerance here and we.

[D]

Just kind of have to deal with that or is it like they're just guessing and nobody's going to know so.

[C]

There'S a few different answers to this question first off you are allowed a twenty percent error either direction on a food label now that doesn't mean that they take it and the reason they do that is because geez chicken in san francisco may be slightly different than the tissue of chicken in i don't.

[D]

Know arkansas or a chocolate bar just has a little bit more poured onto it from one machine than the other.

[C]

I don't know so they allow a tolerance now what i'll tell people is people make a big deal counting calories is stupid because these food labels okay but maybe there's a little bit off but if you're always tracking something the same way it's like measuring body fat people don't realize like they get a dexa and they're like oh that's my body fat exactly no dexa still relies on assumptions algorithms equations but if you're getting dexa the same way every time if your body fat goes down you can be relatively confident it goes down now are you fifteen percent really or are you thirteen and a half percent really you don't know the only way to know exactly what your body fat is to die and have your adipose tissue excised and weighed that's the only way to know okay so nobody's signing up for that and same thing with calipers we don't know exactly we're making assumptions and equations same thing for food maybe you don't know exactly how many calories you're consuming but if you're tracking everything the same way over time if you're not losing weight and you want to then you need to eat less calories regardless of what you think it is versus what it actually is so i find it this hand wringing argument is kind of an excuse as to why people ah that's why i don't track calories because it doesn't matter and then now that being said there are standard values in the usda database if i create a food product tomorrow i don't have to throw it in a bomb kilometer i don't have to do that i don't have to go get my own keldol analysis done now i can especially if i want to show something but i can take if it's a multi ingredient food i can just take the weights of each ingredient and say okay here's what the calories carbohydrates and fats and protein should be you can do that that's accepted and there are companies who have misrepresented things i remember i know lenny and larry's cookies got looked at and they had way more calories in them than were claimed on the label there was this company which wasn't available in stores they were selling them through their business and they these high protein brownies high protein low carb low fat claimed to have seventeen grams of protein twelve grams of carbohydrate three grams of fat had a client that couldn't lose weight team bottling client couldn't lose weight and we found out she was eating like several of these brownies per day had them analyzed at a food lab you know what the actual macros were three grams of protein fifty grams of carbohydrate and like seventeen grams of fat i want to say.

[D]

Or basically just a regular brownie at.

[C]

That point just a regular old brownie right and i put out that video and the company threatened to sue me.

[D]

Yeah i bet they did yeah which.

[C]

I didn't do any more follow up videos but i didn't take it down i don't want to get a lawsuit either but i'm kind of like if you want to sue me then you go right ahead if you think this is going somewhere yeah yeah you know.

[D]

What discovery is right it's where they have to prove that they are not lying and that's not going to work if they know that they're lying right.

[C]

That'S called a bluff right exactly it's.

[D]

Too bad that some people decide to.

[A]

Lie not saying that they did some people have decided to lie some brownie.

[C]

Companies yeah maybe they just accidentally dump sticks of butter in there who knows but what i always tell people is like if you're having trouble losing weight and you're consuming some of these like lower calorie non single ingredient foods it's probably more likely that some of them may be underestimating the calories that are on the label versus you violating the laws of thermodynamics yes and a lot.

[D]

Of people do things like they don't count sauces and they're putting fifty grams of mayonnaise on sandwiches throughout the day.

[A]

I'M curious if you can do one last thing which is name some quick.

[D]

Ways that my listeners can spot science.

[A]

Washed supplement marketing here in twenty twenty.

[D]

Five what are some of the common like oh this says this and you're like that's meaningless or that's just hype.

[C]

Typically the veracity of evidence is inversely proportional to the number of exclamation points used in the marketing the more extreme the claim the more likely it is that it's bullshit i tend to use what's called hitchens razor which is from christopher hitchens where he said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence so the amount of evidence you should need to support whatever it is you're claiming should be proportional to how big your claim is and that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence so many times people will say well you can't prove that it doesn't do this i'm like yeah i also can't prove there's not a teacup orbiting saturn for sure but i feel a high degree of confidence that no teacup is orbiting saturn and just as a primer for people a quick sixty second on how to spot bullshit listen to less of what people say and more of the way they say it which if you listen to how i was talking in this interview very few things were black and white i was giving you a lot of context a lot of nuance i was even giving you the devil's advocate argument in several of these cases but then i gave you the reasons as to why i thought my argument was better or superior and so that's how experts talk experts don't use the following words very often always never best worst they just don't talk like that they just don't talk with like fear to invoke fear which is exact opposite of how most social media people do things because the best way the absolute best way to get what you want from somebody is an emotional response because people do not buy based on logic they buy based on emotion that is how you get somebody invested this happens in politics people appeal to emotion it happens with the regular media they do stories that make you angry that scare you because they know even if you say you hate them that you will watch because i think a lot of people are addicted to being pissed off these days or being scared or whatever it is it's why horror movies are so popular right like people want to get that big cortisol rush they want to get like anxious and i say this all the time the news cycle people complain about all they do is show negative news that's because you want negative news i'm sorry if everybody on the planet stood up tomorrow and said we're not taking this shit anymore we're not going to watch unless you actually put on some positive stuff i promise you in a couple of months the entire news cycle would flip but it's not going to happen because i think human beings are inherently attracted to things that emotionally ramp them up and somebody who's really an expert is not going to try and get you emotionally charged up they're going to present the data and then let you make even when like saturated fat which i said i changed my mind on i didn't say don't consume any saturated fat it's gonna kill you it's toxic i didn't say any of that because i don't think that i do try to limit it but that's how i talk that is a measured way that a real expert talks i think one of the hard parts for people to understand is real experts actually sound unsure whereas there's a quote from bertrand russell that is one of my favorite quotes and he said the whole problem with this world is only fools and zealots are sure of themselves and wise people are filled with doubts so look for people who sound unsure of themselves and who give you a lot of context when they're answering a.

[D]

Question that's right yes and you've done that on this episode thank you very much i really appreciate your time man.

[C]

Thanks jordan appreciate it man.

[A]

Want to master the art of communication charles duhigg author of super communicators reveals key strategies for enhancing your connections and conversations in this enlightening podcast episode why do some.

[E]

People manage to connect with everyone else so effortlessly and then there's times when i talk to my wife and like we cannot connect with each other and it turns out it's just a set of skills right like it's just literally a set of skills that super communicators know and that any of us can learn and become super communicators ourselves looping for understanding and has three steps the first is ask a question preferably a deep question secondly repeat back what you just heard heard the person say in your own words and thirdly and this is the one everyone always forgets ask if you got it right and the reason why this is so powerful is because it proves that i'm listening to you it's really easy to stop thinking about how we're communicating it's really easy to stop thinking about what's going on until we get in the habit of it communication isn't something that happens just one to one sometimes it's one to many but the same principles still hold up you're still having practical or emotional or social conversations laughter is actually one of the non linguistic ways that we connect with other people there's been studies that show that in about eighty percent of the time when we laugh it is not in response to something funny it's because we're basically in a conversation and we're saying to someone i want to connect with you nobody is born a super communicator that's where what feels tiring is when you feel like you want to connect and you can't right this isn't a behavior this isn't a personality type this is a tool that once we learn we can use when we want to use it learn how.

[A]

To categorize conversations improve active listening and overcome communication barriers to build stronger relationships tune in and transform your interactions into meaningful connections on episode nine hundred sixty three of the jordan harbinger show that was doctor lane norton and man this one is going to stick with me next time i stare down a menu pretending to eat clean big thanks to doctor lane for bringing the receipts and not just the reps i love how he takes the emotion out of nutrition.

[D]

Without taking the humanity out of it.

[A]

Because it's one thing to read studies and another to actually live this stuff day in and day out we covered a lot protein myths diet soda panic fasting fads the fine line between science based and science washed and if you're listening to this while pounding your fifth scoop of whey protein maybe take a walk and let your kidneys know you love them all things lane norton will be in the show notes on the website advertisers deals discount codes ways to support the show all all at jordanharbinger dot com deals please consider supporting those who support the show also our newsletter wee bit wiser the idea is to give you something specific and practical that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions your psychology your relationships in under two minutes comes out just about every wednesday and it's a great companion to the show jordanharbinger dot com news is where you can find it don't forget about six minute networking as well over at six minutenetworking dot com i'm ordanharbinger on twitter and instagram you can also connect with me on linkedin and this show it's created in association with podcast one my team is jen harbinger jace sanderson robert fogarty tatas sidlowskis ian baird gabriel mizrahi and remember we rise by lifting others the fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about if you know somebody who's interested in fitness nutrition diet myths science definitely share this episode with them in the meantime i hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

[F]

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