The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1238: Ken Burns | What If the American Revolution Isn't Over?

Release Date: November 11, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Jordan Harbinger and producer Gabriel Mizrahi interview legendary documentarian Ken Burns, whose new PBS series, The American Revolution, explores the revolution not as a closed chapter but as a living, unfinished process. Burns posits that the American Revolution was less a one-and-done conflict and more an ongoing experiment—"still being debugged," as he puts it. The conversation weaves together storytelling, history, mythmaking, the craft of documentary, and the modern echoes of America’s founding contradictions.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Reframing the American Revolution: Not as a sanitized myth of noble freedom-fighters but as a complex, violent, and unfinished story—one whose unresolved questions still shape America today.
• The Power of Storytelling: How deep, nuanced stories can cut through binary debates and allow us to see both past and present with more empathy and clarity.
• Making History Alive: The craft of Ken Burns’s filmmaking, including his collaborative process, narrative methods, and the now-famous "Ken Burns effect."
• Ongoing Experiment: Exploring which act of the “revolution” we’re living through now, and what lessons its messiness holds for democracy, belonging, and citizenship.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Revolution as Ongoing Experiment

• Myth vs. Reality
  • Burns challenges the sanitized version of the Revolution, presenting it as both brutally violent and incredibly diverse.
  • “[The Revolution] was the start of an experiment that's still being debugged two and a half centuries later.” (03:30, Ken Burns)
• Complexity and Contradiction
  • The American origin myth often ignores its internal conflicts, the essential roles of women, enslaved people, and Native nations.
  • “We want to simplify everything… But in fact, I find [the ideas] more inspirational as we dug in…” (12:06, Burns)
• Civil War Within the Revolution
  • More of a civil war than the Civil War itself, marked by divided loyalties and civilian deaths: “It's Americans killing Loyalists and Loyalists killing Americans…” (08:42, Burns)
• Ongoing “Debugging”
  • Benjamin Rush’s idea: “The American war is over, but the American Revolution is still going on.” (35:43, Burns)

2. Diversity & Margins in Revolutionary America

• Broadening the Cast
  • The revolution was more than “great men”: teenagers, Native leaders, wives of German officers, black and enslaved people, all featured.
  • “Try to make them more human. But more important, we introduce you to scores of other human beings.” (13:14, Burns)
• Narrative Choices
  • The documentary opens with Thomas Paine but quickly gives voice to a spokesman for the Six Nations, highlighting indigenous democracy’s influence.
  • “If you begin the film with a curveball, you're not expecting it… you're prepared to receive the complexity.” (18:13, Burns)

3. Storytelling as Tool for Understanding and Healing

• Beyond Politics
  • Burns insists his work is about “calling balls and strikes,” not pushing a political agenda. Full context replaces easy political binaries.
  • “A good story neutralizes the kind of binary yes and no… you’re bad left, right, young, old…” (04:29, Burns)
• The Trojan Horse Effect
  • “A good story is… like a benevolent Trojan horse… it just says, 'Oh, there may be another way to look at this.'” (19:16, Burns)
• Making Myths Human
  • Burns avoids simple hero/villain dichotomies; the revolution is told through both top-down (founding fathers) and bottom-up perspectives.
  • “We love complexity in entertainment, why not in our history?” (43:17, Mizrahi)

4. Echoes: The Past in the Present

• Consistent Divisions
  • “People go, oh man, we are so divided. And you go, okay, when were we not divided?” (12:41, Burns)
• Human Nature “Rhymes”
  • “Mark Twain said: history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. So you see the rhymes…” (20:52, Burns)
• Ongoing Struggles
  • The contradictions of freedom and slavery, inclusion and exclusion, are a through-line: “Once you said all [men are created equal], it's all over… but it's done.” (36:27, Burns)

5. Documentary Craft: Making History Come Alive

• Team & Process
  • The films are intensely collaborative—a small, dedicated team crafts each story over years, boiling down vast research into narrative “elixir.”
  • “It's not an additive process. It's subtractive… it takes 40 gallons of SAP to make 1 gallon of syrup.” (26:15, Burns)
• Editing Obsession
  • Down to twelfths of a second: “I'm spending weeks doing that so that when you see it…” (53:07, Burns)
• Reenactments & Authenticity
  • Instead of dramatic reenactments, Burns uses impressionistic shots of reenactors—hands, uniforms, ramrods—evoking era rather than imposing story.
• The Ken Burns Effect
  • The slow pan and zoom technique found in nearly all video editing software today (“They call it Ken Burns. In CapCut, too!” [76:46, Mizrahi]) originated from his drive to “wake the dead”—to animate still images so viewers feel history viscerally.

6. The Human Question

• Waking the Dead (Personal Motivation)
  • Burns recounts how his mother’s early death shaped his drive to “wake the dead” through filmmaking—a way to process grief and create connection.
  • “You wake the dead… Who do you think you’re really trying to wake up?” (80:46, Burns)
• Empathy & Us
  • “We may be politically idiots… But when it comes to the complexity of stories, there's only us.” (41:35, Burns)
• Trust in the Team/Next Generation
  • Burns learns as much from his interns and younger colleagues as from historians: “I'm now as curious about what the interns have to say… I'm 72 years old, I know nothing.” (69:15, Burns)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Description | |-----------|---------|-------------------| | 03:30 | Ken Burns | “This wasn’t just a war that ended in 1783. It was the start of an experiment that’s still being debugged two and a half centuries later.” | | 07:54 | Jordan Harbinger | “You’re calling the American Revolution the most important event since the birth of Christ…” | | 12:41 | Ken Burns | “People go, oh man, we are so divided. And you go, okay, when were we not divided?” | | 16:42 | Ken Burns | “It’s calling balls and strikes… Telling that doesn’t have a political thing. I have my own politics, but I leave it out of there.” | | 19:16 | Ken Burns | “A good story is… like a benevolent Trojan horse… it just says, ‘Oh, there may be another way to look at this.’” | | 20:52 | Ken Burns | “Mark Twain said, history doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes. So you see the rhymes, you see the echoes…” | | 35:43 | Ken Burns | “The American war is over, but the American Revolution is still going on.” (quoting Benjamin Rush) | | 41:35 | Ken Burns | “There’s only us. The biggest lesson I’ve learned in my entire professional life, there’s only us.” | | 53:07 | Ken Burns | “I'm spending weeks doing that so that when you see it… I'm at a twelfth of a second.” (on obsessive editing) | | 76:46 | Gabriel Mizrahi | “I don’t know if everyone knows what the Ken Burns effect is… It’s in CapCut. TikTok’s editing software.” | | 80:46 | Ken Burns | “You wake the dead. You make Abraham Lincoln and Jackie Robinson come alive. Who do you think you’re really trying to wake up?” | | 86:13 | Jordan Harbinger | “Ken Burns. Freeze frame. Slow pan to the coffee.” (light-hearted nod to the signature style) |

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:30] – Ken Burns on the Revolution as ongoing, not finished.
• [12:41] – On persistent division in American history.
• [16:42] – “Calling balls and strikes” vs. political storytelling.
• [19:16] – The “Trojan horse” effect of storytelling.
• [35:43] – “The American Revolution is still going on.” (Benjamin Rush’s quote)
• [41:35] – “There’s only us”—the real lesson of history.
• [53:07 & 53:34] – The meticulous editing process.
• [76:46] – Ken Burns Effect and its pop culture impact.
• [80:46] – Burns shares his personal motivation (“waking the dead”).

Flow & Tone

• Intelligent, Nuanced, Reflective: Burns brings gravitas and humility, constantly tethering big ideas to personal experience and human folly.
• Warm and Collaborative: All participants are engaged, enthusiastic, and invite listeners to think beyond easy binaries.
• Accessible yet Deep: Complex historical ideas are explained in accessible language, laced with humor, empathy, and memorable anecdotes.

Takeaways

• The American Revolution’s reality is far messier, bloodier, and more diverse than the myth.
• History’s contradictions, conflicts, and unfinished business are not a bug—they’re the engine of progress and understanding.
• Good stories (not political arguments) are the real engine for changing minds and hearts.
• The American experiment requires ongoing engagement, embracing uncertainty, and recognizing that “there’s only us.”
• Burns’s documentary craft—rooted in collaboration, precision, and empathy—is inseparable from the hope of history itself speaking anew.

Recommended For

• Listeners who want to understand American history—and our present—in richer, more human terms.
• Anyone interested in storytelling, documentary making, or how we choose which stories to believe.
• Those wrestling with the complexity, division, and unfinished business of life today.

Ken Burns’ The American Revolution premieres November 16th on PBS. For those who think history is boring, Burns and Harbinger just proved otherwise.

For more, check out the full episode or visit jordanharbinger.com for show notes, links, and transcripts.