1240: Warned Not to Wed Wife, You Fear for Your Life | Feedback Friday

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1240: Warned Not to Wed Wife, You Fear for Your Life | Feedback Friday
Date: November 14, 2025
Featuring: Jordan Harbinger (Host), Gabriel Mizrahi (Producer/Co-host)

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Overview

This Feedback Friday episode centers on listener questions related to toxic relationships, professional challenges, family dynamics, and mental health struggles, interwoven with the hosts’ signature wit and personal insights. The main theme is navigating complex and emotionally taxing situations—especially when red flags or manipulation are at play—and how to take healthy, practical steps forward.

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Episode Structure & Key Segments

1. Catch-Up and Banter [01:32–13:00]

Topics:

• Travel stories: Jordan and Gabe reflect on the time-warp experience of extended travel, with analogies to "Interstellar" and "The Odyssey."
• The challenge of disconnecting in the digital age and the deeper impact of travel "pre-internet" vs. now.
• Japanese 7/11s as cultural wonders (“a CVS plus a dry cleaner plus a grocery store plus a restaurant... everything is in there. Everything.” – Jordan, 10:16).
• Setting up future listener meetups in Japan.

Memorable moments:

• Jordan likens himself to Penelope from The Odyssey during Gabriel’s extensive travels.
  “Thank you. I never felt more like Penelope. That's Odysseus’ wife. Right on FaceTime. Waving a burial shroud out of listener letters while you're off at sea.” [12:39]

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2. Main Listener Letter: Toxic Relationship & Life Threats [13:03–38:00]

Listener Situation:
A man writes in after fleeing a relationship with a woman (“Jessica”) whose erratic, manipulative, and threatening behaviors escalated to direct death threats (“If you leave me, I will kill you”). Both Jessica’s ex-husband and father warned the listener not to marry her; he ignored the warnings and is now struggling with guilt, fallout around shared property, and concern for Jessica’s children.

Key Points & Insights

• Escalating Red Flags:

  • Early introduction to her children, impulsive and unstable behaviors, quick progression in the relationship, manipulation (“her friend called and suggested that I propose to her” [16:29]).
  • Explicit verbal threats: “If you leave me, I will kill you.” [19:36, 20:12]
  • Others warned him: Her ex and father both said to run.

• Validating Danger & Next Steps:

  • Both legal and mental health professionals advised escape for his safety.
  • Referenced "Stop Walking on Eggshells" for understanding borderline personality behaviors.
  • The practical, covert plan for exit—having to wait until she was out to pack and leave.

• Aftermath & Guilt:

  • The ex expects to remain in their house with her children until well into next year, at his financial expense, despite her wealthy parents.
  • Listener struggles with guilt about leaving the children.

• Hosts’ Advice:

  • On Feelings: “Your anger, your shock, your hurt and your disgust, all of it, it all makes perfect sense to me.” – Jordan [28:05]
  • On Responsibility: “As much as I think your ex is a bit of a looney tune, that must have been painful for those kids...But when a person with a track record of mental health issues is saying, if you leave me, I will kill you, I don't know what other option you have. You have to leave.” – Gabriel [27:57]
  • On Guilt: “They're just not your responsibility anymore.” – Jordan [28:42]

• Technical/Legal Guidance:

  • Urged listener to consult family lawyers, divorce attorneys, accountants, and real estate agents.
  • Warned of risks letting ex remain in the house: “…allowing them to live there is a huge mistake. They could refuse to move out. Then you’ve got squatters...” – Jordan [31:27]
  • Critique on manipulation: The ex and her parents are pushing guilt to keep him financially stuck.

Notable Quotes

• “This woman is nuts, man. Straight up.” – Jordan [20:58]
• “You also co-created this situation with her, if only by putting up with it…” – Jordan [26:05]
• “Did those go through a narcissistic lens as well? I don’t know.” – Gabriel [35:48]
• “Captain Save-a-Ho on the dudes cruise over here.” – Gabriel [34:49] (on the listener’s ‘savior’ tendencies)

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3. Legal & Safety Issues at Work: Assaulted Teacher [40:45–48:03]

Listener’s Husband:
Aspiring teacher at a Michigan charter school is being physically assaulted by a student, with no support/action from school administrators; fears escalation or losing his career if he reports it.

Advice from School Attorney (Neil Rambardo):

• DOCUMENT everything: Every incident and all administrative communications.
• Consider reporting to Dept. of Education (possible whistleblower protections).
• Specific strategies differ for special ed vs. general ed students (e.g. behavioral assessments, alternative settings, or as a last resort, criminal charges).
• Litigation is risky & draining—best to use official channels for intervention first.

Analysis:

• Hosts express outrage at lack of support and the impossible situation for passionate teachers.
• Emphasize systemic issues and the importance of self-protection over institutional loyalty.

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4. Convincing Aging Parents to Move [49:30–58:38]

Listener: Worried about elderly parents in an inaccessible condo; wants them to downsize, but they resist due to “the hassle” and property tax fears.

Advice:

• Underlying cause is likely fear of change/unknown.
• “Take them to the pain” – a sales technique: Vividly illustrate everything that could go wrong if they don’t move (e.g. falls, decline, isolation).
• Combine honesty about risks with empathy and lots of family support (“group conversation” to increase their sense of safety and urgency).
• Break down the process into manageable steps—start with viewing new places casually, not as a commitment.

Memorable/Relatable Moment:

• “Shamelessly coerce them into doing the right thing.” – Gabriel [55:38]

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5. Long Covid Fatigue and Teenage Perfectionism [65:08–76:51]

Listener: 14-year-old dealing with debilitating Long Covid symptoms. The mental toll—fatigue, anxiety, depression, and perfectionism—has been as bad as the physical. Struggles with balancing a desire to keep up appearances/social life while needing deep rest.

Hosts’ Guidance:

• Acknowledge the realness of Long Covid and the compounding challenges of school and adolescent schedules.
• Importance of distinguishing between the physical symptoms needing rest and the psychological patterns of perfectionism and shame.
• Challenge: Is the problem the fatigue, or inability to allow rest without feeling like a “failure”?
• Emphasis on gradual self-acceptance, appropriate self-care, and specialized medical/therapeutic support.
• “High school is insane... they design it for old administrators who want to go home at 2:30...” – Jordan [76:14]

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "If you leave me, I will kill you." (Listener’s ex, cited seriously and repeatedly throughout main letter: [19:36], [20:12])
• “Her own father was telling you not to marry her, screaming at you to run for the hills. This is—” – Jordan [17:10]
• “If you fast forward through these ads, I will kill you.” – Jordan, (joking reference to main letter). [37:52]
• “Shamelessly coerce them into doing the right thing.” – Gabriel [55:38]
• “Is the problem that you have long Covid and you need to slow down and take care of yourself, or is the problem that you can’t allow yourself to slow down and take care of yourself without worrying you should be doing something different?” – Jordan [70:56]

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Episode Timestamps

Catch-up & Banter: 01:32–13:00
Toxic Relationship Letter (Main Segment): 13:03–38:00
Teacher Being Assaulted: 40:45–48:03
Elderly Parents & Moving: 49:30–58:38
Teen with Long Covid: 65:08–76:51

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Tone & Style

The hosts maintain a supportive, practical, yet irreverent and humorous tone throughout ("Captain Save-a-Ho", “Shamelessly coerce them…”), blending serious advice with pop culture references and self-deprecating jokes.

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Summary

This Feedback Friday features in-depth, empathetic, and actionable advice about escaping toxic relationships—especially where emotional and physical threats exist—along with strategies for handling challenging family and workplace situations. Perfectionism and mental health, especially in demanding or unsympathetic environments, is discussed in detail with real takeaways. The hosts model both clear-eyed boundaries and understanding for complex human flaws, making the episode as constructive as it is entertaining.

Transcript

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the civilian and vermilion Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from organized crime figures, rocket scientists, astronauts and music moguls. This week we had Rizwan Verk on whether or not we are living in a simulation. He's a former video game developer who explains how computers could actually simulate our entire world and even us. He talks about whether we ourselves might just be an actual simulation, not just in a simulation. We are the simulation. And it's this conversation is very sort of non pothead redditor kind of way. Don't worry, it's you're not going to have to roll a blunt beforehand in order to enjoy it. Gabe and I also interviewed Ken Burns, legendary documentarian and historian. We talked about his new documentary, the American Revolution, about the world changing impact of the founding of America. We also talked about his unique philosophy of storytelling, how he stays committed to his subject for decades, how he sees this particular moment in American history, and how his early experiences drove him to dedicate his career to reviving the dead. A truly fascinating guy with a lot to say. We had a great conversation with him and. And finally, we did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on Light Pollution. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and refuse to let Gabe live down his most humiliating sartorial tragedy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We do. We do do that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Gabe, you're back in la.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm home.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What a weird transition after all the hippie circles and Baltic cruises and German floor mattresses.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, it is a little surreal, but overall so nice. I'm at my mom's house right now, as you can see. I'm sleeping in my sister's old bedroom, which is now the guest room. And it is so nice. I did need a break after all the moving around. You know how it is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I do know how it is. There's nothing like coming home after being on the road for a while. And that week, week and a half, we did on the east coast for interviews. When I came home and I got to see my wife and kids, I was like, oh, I missed this. I can't even imagine five months away. Well, I mean, I can because I've done years away before, but that was different. It's funny though, it doesn't feel like five months. Somehow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It feels shorter to you?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I think so. What about you?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know. I guess it feels like five months, but like, so much life was packed into those five months that they kind of feel like a year.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. So I don't know if it's time dilation. It kind of is. So if you ask me how long I was living in the former East Germany in the 90s, I would say 10 months, because I know that it was 10 months. But if you ask me how much development I had during that 10 months, I mean, every couple months was honestly like a year because it was like the first three months I didn't speak any German. I was really homesick. I kind of hated it. It didn't match up to my expectation. The second three months I was learning German rapidly, I was making friends rapidly, I was. I switched classes, I did a whole bunch of stuff, found hobbies, really enjoyed, you know, what I was doing. The last four months it was like, I live here now. I speak German conversationally. I'm friends with all these people that call me all the time and I have girlfriends and stuff, you know, it was just like completely. And then I came back home and I was like, yeah, I've been gone for forever. And people were like, oh yeah, you were gone? Yeah, how was that? And I was like, dude, what did you do? And they're like, you know, like drove around and like hung out. And I'm like, God, I didn't miss anything.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's like Interstellar, the movie. You know how when they go to the other planet and the time is different so they can only stay there for a few minutes because it's like years back home.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or vice versa. I always forget. Yeah, it's kind of like that when you travel.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is. But especially when you really sit somewhere and you're doing your own thing. And also, I guess I'll never know the answer to this, but since this was kind of pre peak Internet, like I had aol, but I didn't have Skype. That didn't exist. You couldn't do voiceover ip, or at least I don't think you could. There was something called Dialpad. I'm not sure if that was working or existing. But really you couldn't do much with the Internet. Right. Email. I remember my host father was like, I got a mobile phone for you so you can text me and tell me where you are. And I never took it. And he's like, take the damn phone. I was like, I hate it, I hate carrying it. And it's funny cause now like, I would never leave home without my phone. But he's like, can you take the freaking. I remember he would be like, take the freaking phone and send me a text and stop calling me from pay phones and being like, yeah, I think I'm on these cross streets. Like, just take the damn phone. He's like, if I call this thing and my kitchen rings again, I'm going to be pissed off. It's like this is like back then, you're just like, I don't need it. Why do I need to call anybody from outside? You know? Just like I never, I just had a phone card. I used it like once a week. Now though, I meet people abroad and I'm like, what are you doing? They're like, oh, I'm studying abroad. And I'm like, oh, okay. What do you think about it? And they're, they're, they're like in the Czech Republic, talking with their friends on FaceTime in English, posting crap on their Instagram, answering DMs, having a call with their mom over breakfast. And I'm like, it's not the same. You're kind of on a weird extended vacation because you're maintaining all your friendships, you're maintaining all your relationships. And one of the things they told us on our exchange was to not forget about your friends back home. But like, don't try. They were kind of like, that sounds.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like a Nexium orientation session where your.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Family now, yeah, forget about them. It really was kind of like that because it was like, don't try and maintain your relationships with all your homeboys or your girls back in Michigan. What you should be focused on is your life in Germany. Like, you're not going home soon. School drama is irrelevant to you. Friend circle drama is irrelevant to you. Your boyfriend, girlfriend. Sorry, bro. Irrelevant to you. And it was like, just the sooner you realize this, the less you're going to be homesick, the less you're going to feel like you're out of sync with everything and the more you're going to quicker you're going to adapt. And it was easy for me because I was kind of like my girlfriend. I was just like, whatever, we're all, you're going to college. And then my best friends, they were so bad at keeping in touch that I gave up really early because I was like, these guys don't give a crap. And honestly, when I came back, they were like, oh, hey, bro. It made it easy to go to college because I was like, these guys don't give two shits.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was a little bit sad, but I also kind of get it. They got into like drugs and stuff and they were like, really into selling them. And I was like, guys, I want a future, so good luck. By so when I came back and they weren't interested, my parents and I were like, it's fine. And they ended up getting in major trouble for that later. But I digress. The reason that travel feels so different pre Internet is because of that. And I think you could probably do it now. You just have to very consciously be like, all right, I'm off social media. Or I'm limiting social media to when I'm super bored or like homesick only, or like one hour a week, whatever it is. You can't carry around your mobile and be like dicking around on Instagram all the time and answering all your DMs and texting all your friends constantly. It's just it's not going to work. You're going to be torn in different directions, and that's without even getting into the impact it's going to have on learning the local language.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Totally.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

With also all the tools you have to translate and everything.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's fascinating. The technology allows you to be in multiple places at once, which was not possible until recently.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's also not ideal for adapting to a new place. Permanent, semi, permanently.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. You're sort of depriving yourself of the joy of doing a thing like this, but, man, I don't know if you felt like this in Germany, but on these travels the last couple months, I was like, I know I'm going to be home at some point in the fall, but it just kept receding. Like, they just kept. I felt like Odysseus toward the end there. It was just like, slowly making my way back home. New things kept popping up and waylaying me. There would be, like, a cool invitation to go here, come to New York and visit me. The interviews we did in New York, like, an old friend wants to have lunch and I'll stay for another couple days. You know, it just kept going and going, and I was like, I'm never actually going to go home.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. Distracted by the siren song of podcasting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I became a bit of a lotus eater at a certain point. You know, just lost in a dream of Finnish forests and forgetfulness.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The Odyssey. Is that the story where he's got a bag with all the winds in it?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, that's the one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He's supposed to let out the gentle winds so he can get home, and then all the winds, they escape or something, and he's lost at sea for, like a decade or whatever.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. His men think that there's treasure in the bag, so they open it and then they let out all the winds and they're lost again.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. That's me inviting you to interview Bill Macy and Ken Burns and be feedback Friday in a fricking hotel room in Manhattan. Totally.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You are my mythical bag of wind.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My. I am a windbag, that's for sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, you know, if the shoe fits.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Indeed. All right. But this is not the end of your travels.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, no, no. I'm just here for three weeks and then I'm off to Japan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Jealous slash ridiculous.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Should be cool. I'm actually going. Did I tell you this? I'm going with Aaron Margolis for the first two weeks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dr. Aaron Margolis? The.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The doctor?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. Man. I Wish I could meet up with you guys. And quite jealous. I'm gonna be.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's gonna be fun.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I'm gonna be busy in Patagonia. Boo hoo.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So Aaron is one of my. I don't know if you guys know this. Aaron is one of my oldest friends. So it's gonna be really special to be in Japan with her. And it's her first time in Japan and actually I think it's her first time in Asia. So I'm very excited to see her mind get blown.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Time to take her to eat at 7:11.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We've already talked about that. Actually.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For people who are grossed out by that. Basically at a 711 in Japan you can get a SIM card for your phone, get your dry cleaning done, get a pretty darn good decent meal. Not like what you would get here. Like a hot dog with hair in it. You can get like a lottery ticket, a beer, a memory card for your computer and milk. I mean like the stuff you can get at a 711 in Asia is kind of like a CVS in America plus a dry cleaner, plus a grocery store, plus a restaurant. It's just insane. And it's still. It's also tiny, like a gas station. It's just everything is in there. Everything.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The other thing I love about 7/11 in Japan, one of the few places with a trash can. So if you ever have. You know how you have to carry your trash with you in Japan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I did not know about that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, they don't have trash cans anywhere because they don't want people creating waste. Like by bringing a ton of stuff with packaging or whatever. And then they don't want people dropping it on the floor, I guess, or whatever. So there's just no trash cans wherever you go.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you just put the trash in your pocket and go home?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yep.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ridiculous.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Pretty much. Or maybe you bring it to work and they have trash cans at work, but we're not there for work so we don't have those perks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

711 perks. Free lunch and a trash can so you can drop your garbage.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They don't advertise this, but I realized it the last time I went. So whenever you have a bunch of wrappers in your pocket or coffee, teacup or whatever and you don't know what to do, you just pop in a 7 11. It's so great.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's. This is weird. Well, we're going to need some stories. You guys are going to do some feedback Friday consults while you're there or what?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's all we're doing, actually, no kabuki, no weird sex shows, just straight feedback. Friday consults.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's bummer. No sex shows. That's what I like to hear. If you're going to Odysseus around the world with our star psychologists, I want to know. I want to know. It's a dues cruise, but, you know, throw in a sex show, bro. So what's the plan?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Tokyo, Hakone, Kyoto, Osaka, and Mount Koya. That's the part with Eren. And then we'll see.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's awesome.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

After that, I don't know. I might stay in Japan for a bit. I might hop somewhere else. I'm kind of making it up as I go.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Once again, footloose and fancy free, man.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, and if anyone listening lives in any of these cities, please email me or DM me on Instagram. I would love to meet up with you. We might also do a listener meetup in Tokyo or Kyoto or Osaka if we have some show family in those cities. So, yeah, if you're around, hit me up. I would love to meet you guys.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Jen will also be in Japan for part of that. Oh, yeah, you guys can hang out.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I gotta write her. Yeah, absolutely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And I will try to post a bunch and I'll. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you about all the funny stuff that happens. You know, maybe I'll FaceTime you from a hot spring.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. There you go. Thank you. I never felt more like Penelope. That's Odysseus wife. Right on FaceTime.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's hilarious.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Waving a burial shroud out of listener letters while you're off at sea, then.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Unraveling it at night so you can delay having to marry a new co host.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is the weirdest Greek epic ever. Speaking of crazy myths, we got some fun ones. We got some doozies. Let's dive in. What is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Happy Friday, Jordan and Gabe. I was in a relationship with a beautiful lady about my age, and she brought two wonderful kids into the mix. Let's call her Jessica.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay. He chose this name, right? Gabe, I don't want any flack.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I knew you were going to jump on this. This is all him, I swear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Jessica's. Don't me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I wonder if he went with Jessica because he knows that it gets us into trouble.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think people are doing it on purpose by now. It's. It's kind of funny, actually.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We enjoyed a mostly happy life up until my eyes were open to some unusual disturbing behavior from her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, man, the Dews cruise is hitting choppy water already. This is the emotional equivalent of that Baltic cruise you took a few weeks ago.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Grab your Dramamine, Papa. Let's get into this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, double dose.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I knew she came from a troubled past. A narcissistic father and ex husband. Her father married the lady he cheated on her mom with. Her mother was then remarried to a wonderful man who I looked up to. Her ex was a grandiose narcissist. Cheated on her constantly and caused many rifts with her, the kids and the rest of the family. It seemed she was following the same story as her mom. Meeting a well off, kind man after a troubled marriage. We hit it off almost immediately for our first meetup. She offered to come over to my house. I was honored that she trusted me so soon, but this also felt odd.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, interesting data point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also met the kids within a few weeks, which felt a little quick to me. I was joining them on an emotional journey after a divorce and saw much of the impulsive, abusive behavior their father gave them. She didn't hold back on sharing everything about the process. When he and I met, he said he liked me and said I should run.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He went on to say that she is manipulative and self centered.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Holy smokes. That must have been quite a conversation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But it's also very confusing. Coming.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're a terrible person. Yeah, maybe Spare. You know what, though? This is alarming. Even if you think he's lying and trying to poison the well, now that I think about it, because on the one hand, it's like, okay, you're a grandiose narcissist who's divorcing this person. You'll say anything. But on the other hand, well, I don't know. I think we can guess where this story's going.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My family and friends didn't get good vibes from her, and I ignored their feedback. I noticed strange behavior from her, including mood swings, impulsive purchasing, blurting things out, picking a fight for the sake of making up, and so on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This sounds like a Dr. Scott Lyons case study. Remember the addiction to drama on top of what it sounds like, other mental health challenges. He's episode 836, by the way. He's a friend of mine and his book is called Addicted to Drama. And this is what people. They pick fights for the sake of making up, as one of the things. By the way, Gabriel, I know you're with me on this. How annoying would that particular behavior be? Like, I don't like fighting. So to Fight about something that's fake so that you can get, like, positive attention from me. Oh, my God. I would put up with that for once or twice. And then I'm out. I am out.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's hard for me to even wrap my head around being in a relationship with someone like that. Yeah, it's pretty disturbing. So he goes on. All this felt odd, but given what she and her kids were going through, I gave her tons of grace and support.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, man. It's tough to hear about in retrospect. So I'm guessing you know this now, but none of what you're describing is it's not odd. It's more than that. These are red flags, especially when you start looking at them all put together. But I get it. When you can't see something clearly, it can sometimes just register as a little weird, as opposed to, like, terrifying and a good reason to run in the opposite direction as quickly as possible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Before the holidays a few years ago, her friend called and suggested that I propose to her. After a year and a half of.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dating, her friend suggested you pro. Ah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Are you thinking she told her friend to tell him to propose?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking. Because that's so weird. Like, would you ever do that for someone? No. You would never be like, hey, you should propose to so and so. That's just a weird high school. That's like, you should ask out Jamie. She likes you. Why are you telling me this, Nina? Why are you talking to me about this?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was excited to propose. I've never been engaged or married before. I was all in on these three, and I couldn't wait to spend the rest of my life with them. When I asked Jessica's father for her hand in marriage, he exploded at me for 20 minutes trying to convince me not to do this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dude, her own father was telling you not to marry her, screaming at you to run for the hills. This is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Do you know how bad you have to be for your own parent to tell your future spouse, run? Like, run for the hills?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I mean, look, there are bad parents and stuff, but, like, this is insane.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is the second time somebody close to her has said this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When the ex told him to get out and he ignored him. Okay, I got it. You know, and I know her dad's cut from the similar cloth, so it's not inconceivable that everyone's ganged up on her and treats her poorly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

But when two people in someone's life tell you not to get involved with them, I Think you at least gotta go, huh? What's that all about? Maybe I'll slow things down just a little bit and see if there's anything to this. This is wild. My goodness.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But I stood my ground, told him I would love her forever and support her. He begrudgingly gave me his blessing. I bought a big ring and took her on vacation for her first Christmas away from the kids. Her ex had custody for that period. I planned to propose on Christmas Day, but after seeing how down she was, I waited until the next day. After an elaborate dinner, I got down on one knee and she said, sure, okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's the reaction you want when you bust out the ring and propose. Fine.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Will you merge your family with mine and spend the rest of your life with me?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Alright, what's for lunch?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So this maybe supports the idea that she knew this was coming.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, zero surprise. Like, okay, I obviously saw this coming because I thought it would happen earlier because I told Jenny to call you two months ago.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's not the full story though, because even if you knew it was coming, if you want to marry this person, you should still be happy, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

But she was already down about something else because she's got mental health issues.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We spent the rest of the evening taking pictures and having a night out on the town. And she was very indifferent about it and remained so for the rest of the trip. Even buying a house with her was anticlimactic. I typically got feedback from her that felt like, you should have done these things long ago or what, Should I be impressed? You want a cookie or something? Something always felt wrong. Living with her and her inconsistent mixed signals and confusing behavior always left me in survival mode. And I was constantly emotionally exhausted.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Even if you can't read specific red flags correctly, that something feels wrong here kind of feeling, you gotta pay attention to that in life. It could mean any number of things. Doesn't always mean the situation is doomed. But if you're feeling that way, there's a reason and you gotta slow down and listen to it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Then earlier this year, she nonchalantly told me, if you leave me, I will kill you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What? That's actually really scary. How do you respond it? Like, good to know. Okay, noted. Thank you, sweetie. What the hell?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It didn't feel like much. I asked her what she meant by that and she said it was nothing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it didn't feel like much. If you leave me, I will kill you. Yeah, no big deal. Just threatening your life if you don't stick with her. And also, what's the context of that, like, pass the mashed potatoes. Aren't these delicious? By the way, if you leave me, I will kill you. This is so weird.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's like, girl, I just gave you a ring. Yeah, what else do you want?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not planning on leaving you. Kind of the opposite, by the way. You didn't care when? I did make that promise earlier, but Cool.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Later on, on a family vacation, we had just had the best day of the trip. Fishing with the kids, spending an afternoon on the beach and finishing the day at the resort pool. The kids were swimming. I had just gotten us a pair of cocktails and I sat next to her. All of a sudden, out of the blue, a seriously terrifying look came into her eyes. Her face turned white and she said in a terrifying voice, if you leave me, I will kill you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sorry, I'm not supposed to laugh at these, but it is a horror movie. This is some bunny boiler. Ish, man.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Until that point, I had pumped all my love and everything else I had into the three of them and would never, ever leave them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't mean to be cruel, but this woman is nuts, man. Straight up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I started planning an exit should things get worse.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Probably a good idea.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I discussed it with family and friends and we put a strategy in place. I bounced this plan off of two lawyers and mental health professionals, and all of them told me that I didn't know what kind of danger I was in, that I was making the right choice to protect my life and my peace.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is like domestic abuse stuff, right? You just don't. You don't say that out of the blue and then never do anything horrible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My therapist asked me to read Stop Walking on Eggshells and it helped validate my feelings and identify her behavior as narcissism and borderline personality disorder.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That tracks. Great book. We plugged that on the show a bunch. It's changed a lot of people's lives. Holy smokes, though.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This woman.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Damn.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

For the next few weeks, her behavior intensified and I became more and more concerned. She gave me a third, equally intense threat out of the blue, and I knew it was time to get out of there. My family and I picked a day in July of this year to make the getaway when she was taking the kids to her parents a few hours away. Every time I thought about the kids, I would attempt to cancel. But then I remembered why we were where we were, and I stuck with the plan. That whole week, I was anxious and struggled to keep my composure. I could barely even eat. Once I saw that they were at the House. I made the call and met my family at our house to pack my stuff. I killed the Internet to shut off the cameras, but she still saw what was going on. She had a redundant Internet connection in the house.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh my God. Dude, this is so he. She had an Internet connection which you didn't even know about. So not only was she creating a redundant Internet connection for God knows what reason, maybe this exact reason. She was also proactively checking the cameras. I forgot about that part. Proactively checking the cameras in the house while she was away to see what you were up to. Like deliberately.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh my God. She continued to call and text while we were packing. Even the kids were calling.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Meaning she made the kids call. Of course. Pull on those heartstrings.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Once I got on the road and calmed down, I called her with my work phone and recorded the conversation. Her demeanor could best be described as the Sharon Stone interview scene from Basic Instinct. And it was disturbing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't make any rules, Nick.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

I go with the flow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I reflect back on her last marriage and wonder exactly how much did she contribute to the toxicity of that relationship? Yeah, good question.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That guy sounds like a piece of work too. But I think it's very likely they were both a hot mess. My God.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We were never married and didn't meet the standards of common law marriage in our state of Texas, so there was nothing to settle. But we did buy that house together with all of my equity and savings splitting the mortgage. I make substantially more than her, so she reimbursed me for a third of the mortgage. She and her parents are proposing that I allow her and the kids to stay in the house until April or May of next year. New while I pay the mortgage and she pays the utilities double. New Neither of us can afford afford to live in the house on our own, so this poses a financial problem for me as I just got laid off. I'm staying with a buddy for cheap rent and am unable to move on. I pled my case to her and her stance is that I chose to leave and should bear the brunt of this as a result. No, her mom and stepfather are extremely well off and could support her and her kids but are reluctant to do so.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wonder why I told her that the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Money is not there to support her plan and we must act urgently to get her and the kids into a new place before the holidays. She also works a mostly full time job, not making much, so I feel deep down that I'm putting them in a precarious situation and I feel much Guilt over this. After all, the kids and I had a wonderful relationship and I feel like a failure to them being the second man to walk out on them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ugh. Man, I have so many thoughts, but I'll hold off for now. This is very intense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Looking back on the past four years, I now see so many red flags. The impulsive behavior, her educating me about narcissistic behavior only to use the same tactics on me, her trash talking me behind my back, my people and her father and ex warning me about her. She also made it extremely difficult to have conversations about my needs and other difficult but essential topics. By shutting the conversation down, gaslighting me, or shaming me for bringing things up while insert calamity of the week was going on, she often made me feel like I had narcissistic tendencies. When I ask for feedback from family, friends and my therapist, they say, yes, I do have some of these qualities, as I'm an energetic, motivated person who loves to lead people, but that I don't have the qualities that are damaging to other people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dude, so much going on here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Am I right to feel this way?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, which way?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Unclear. I think he means guilty about leaving her and the kids to fend for themselves and like, angry at her for all of this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I got it. I mean, so his whole view of the relationship probably right?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, I think so. Am I handling this correctly? What options do I have to settle the house before Q2 of next year? That would leave both of us in a comfortable situation. Signed, trying my best to refill and stay on top of my bills when my ex threatened to kill after I neglected to run for the hills.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I need a minute because that was a ride.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That drama mean kicking in yet or.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I gotta take. I gotta pop another one. I am seasick. All right, where to begin? I'm very sorry that you went through all this. This is awful. Everything you've described sounds incredibly stressful, upsetting, terrifying, destabilizing, sad. I can't even imagine what the last few years have been like for you. Man, my heart is pounding over here. I wasn't even in this relationship. Man, the things you've been through. But honestly, despite all of the disturbing stuff your ex did, I kind of feel bad for her. Hear me out. This woman obviously had some very significant trauma, probably tied to the narcissistic father. God knows what else. You don't end up. You don't threaten to kill your fiance if he leaves you, if you don't have some serious wounds, personality disorders, if that's what's going on here, which it sure sounds like it is. They're kind of all caused by trauma in one form or another, right? Yeah. Now, she obviously has a responsibility to address all this stuff. It doesn't sound like she's doing that, but I do feel for her to some degree. I'm also aware and you are too, which I'm glad to hear that you chose this partner. You stuck with her, you overlooked a lot of red flags. You participated in this relationship. It's very clear that she brought a lot of dysfunction and chaos into your relationship. But you also co created this situation with her, if only by putting up with it and advancing your relationship when there were some really darn good reasons to take a huge step back or just get out entirely. And why you did that, that's now your work to do. We just have to acknowledge that too. So, yeah, as you can tell, I think you're absolutely right to feel this way about your ex and getting out. As anxiety provoking as that was, I definitely think that was the right move. It is super sad that you had to secretly pack your things and leave while she was out of the house. That you didn't get to explain this to the kids and have a proper goodbye. As much as I think your ex is a bit of a looney tune, that must have been painful for those kids.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But when a person with a track record of mental health issues is saying, if you leave me, I will kill you, I don't know what other option you have. You have to leave.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Agreed. I just. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that she would have snapped and tried to stab you in the kitchen one night or something. It sucks, but I get it. Yeah. Basically what I'm saying is your anger, your shock, your hurt and your disgust, all of it, it all makes perfect sense to me. What I'm not so sure about, well, it's complicated. But I'm not so sure about the guilt you feel about abandoning her kids. Like I said, I think it's pretty clear she's primarily responsible for blowing up the relationship and depriving her kids of a solid stepdad. Because she wants the house and these are her kids, she needs to figure out how to support these kids.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, with their father's help. I mean, that's their responsibility.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Once she made it impossible for you to safely stay, they're just not your responsibility anymore.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, but I'm also keeping in mind, like you just said, he did choose to get involved with her. Right? He went along with this accelerated timeline where he met the kids very quickly and he developed a relationship with them and they went on vacations together. He proposed to her. I mean, their whole plan was to be a family.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hear you. He agreed to be their stepdad. They were becoming a family. Gabe, maybe I'm just super cynical. Do we think maybe she escalated things super quickly because she wanted to put him in that position as fast as possible? I mean, she is manipulative and crazy. It's possible anyway, given the stark facts here. All the ways that your ex failed to take care of herself, be a healthy partner, treat you well, make this relationship successful, not threaten to murder you if you leave, etc. I don't think the guilt is entirely warranted, man. But at the same time, I do get why you feel it. So my hope for you is that this guilt starts to evolve a little bit. Maybe over time, it'll become something closer to sadness for those kids. I do think that's appropriate, because it is sad. Their mom drove away the best male presence they're probably ever going to have in their life. Their grandpa sucks, their dad sucks, and you don't get to be in their lives anymore. But that's different from feeling entirely responsible for them and for this whole debacle, which is what produces this guilt. And now you're putting yourself in a terrible position because of them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And that sense of responsibility, which might go back quite a long way, might be one of the things that explains how he ended up in this relationship. Generally speaking, I think we both feel that you're handling this correctly at this point, mostly by getting out and protecting yourself. That had to be priority number one. And the way that you've sought out friends and colleagues, lawyers and a therapist, that is all terrific. I think that's crucial. I'm glad you're surrounding yourself with this kind of counsel. Despite everything we're saying about your ex. I do think you have a lot of important work to do now on doing the full postmortem on this relationship, figuring out how you ended up here, how your own history played a role in all this, how you responded to your ex along the way, why it was so hard to clock these signs and understand what they mean. The trauma that you have been through in this relationship, because you have been through some stuff. All of that. You haven't shared a ton about your own therapy here, but I would say that this processing needs to be a big part of how you're, quote, unquote, handling this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

As for the question of the house. The best advice I can give you there is talk to a family lawyer slash divorce attorney. Talk to an accountant. Get a real estate agent. Let them guide you. I don't know what you owe your ex and her kids. Legally speaking, it sounds like not much. If you still need to sell this house and you're the only one in the deed, which I'm praying you are, then put it on the market and keep moving forward. Again, I'm no divorce lawyer, but I'm pretty sure allowing them to live there is a huge mistake. They could refuse to move out. Then you've got squatters or some sort of weird forced tenant relationship that doesn't cover your costs. This is going to get a lot messier, and I think that she's counting on that, honestly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And meanwhile, her parents could support all of them, but they want him to let her live in the house he paid for practically rent free. That's not.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dude. Yes. This is a terrible situation for him. It's clear that the parents are like, hey, we can get this sucker to subsidize their life, and then we don't have to pay for them. What do we care if he ends up on the hook for all their expenses because they live in his house? They don't care about you, man. And it gives me no pleasure to point out that you are allowing this to happen.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There's just one more thing we need to talk about here, which is this narcissism piece. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's so much narcissism in this story.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So much.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know that word gets thrown around a lot, but his ex's dad has it. The ex has it. Our friend thinks she has it, and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She'S saying that he has it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Everybody's on everybody narcissizing, but he's going. My family, my friends, my therapist, they're all saying I have some qualities that are narcissistic. I'm energetic, I'm motivated, I love to lead people. But I'm not a capital nice narcissist.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. I'm not a malignant narcissist. So he feels that his narcissism, if it exists, is more of the healthy variety. Or it's at least, like, benign.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Benign, yeah. Which. Look, that could totally be the case. We only have his story to go on here. Of course, so there's that. But I'm not hearing anything that screams NPD in the letter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't think I am either. And yet, as you keep pointing out, his stuff did intersect with her stuff, Right? In all sorts of ways. And I do wonder if some of his narcissism, which I want to be very clear, I'm not talking about the narcissism that we all have, not like a malignant narcissism. His narcissism might be more pronounced than in other people, even if it's not dangerous. And it might have still played a role in their relationship.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting. How so?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, I guess I'm speculating and reading between the lines here, so I could be off, but it might have made him want to play the savior for this woman and her kids. That sense of responsibility that we just talked about might plug into this narcissism in some way, might feed it. It might have made it very difficult for him to consider giving up this source of gratification and validation. If he were to leave, it might have been hard for him to cut his losses sooner because, you know, like, recognizing his flaws and mistakes and getting involved with her might have been too wounding or too shameful. It might have made it hard for him to hear her father and her ex when they told him to run. Even this leadership quality of his, which is a virtue in so many ways, that might have given him, I don't know, maybe an inflated sense of his own power to make this very difficult, untenable relationship ultimately succeed until literally his.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Life is threatened and he's like, actually, maybe I'm a little bit above my.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Pay grade here, which is kind of the ultimate narcissistic injury. Yeah, right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I could see that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So I tread lightly here. I really do. I'm not trying to pathologize qualities that might be mostly great, especially in, you know, professional context. But this narcissism exists in. In all of us. And if we're talking about tendencies that are narcissistic, then these might be some good ones to look at right now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, now that we're talking about this, Gabe, he said something else early on that I'm now hearing in a new way. It was that part where he said it seemed she was following the same story as her mom, meeting a well off, kind man after a troubled marriage. Like, I'm the hero. I'm Captain Save a Ho over here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Did you say Captain Save a Ho?

[Jordan Harbinger]

You never heard that? It's like when you try and rescue someone. And the other meme is you see somebody who's, like, actually crazy, like on Reddit. Like, she's jumping on the hood of a car and smashing the windshield with her bare fist. And, like, the top comment is always, I can Fix her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow, Captain Saboho on the dudes cruise over here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yep. That might explain a few things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I think it's pretty clear our friend here is kind. He did a lot of kind things, especially for these kids, as far as we know. And I'm guessing, look, I'll take his word for it that he is, or he's was well off. I mean, he did have enough money to buy a house, although later he said he was having financial problems. So I'm a little confused about that. He did get laid off. That can, you know, that stings. That puts a dent in the pocketbook. But is there something vaguely narcissistic about that narrative too? Like she was going to do the same thing her mom did, get out of an awful relationship and start one with me, a great guy who's well off and super nice? I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, fair question.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The detail stands out to me now. Extra.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's like his conceptualization of the relationship and the narrative that he. Yeah, I could see that there's a glimmer of narcissism somewhere in there. I'm also curious about how he heard some of the things she said. Remember when he was like, I typically got feedback from her that felt like, you should have done these things a long time ago or what, Should I be impressed? You want a cookie or something?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, good point. Did those go through a narcissistic lens as well? I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know. But he's not saying that she actually said those things. He's saying that it felt like that's what she was saying. Which, look, who knows? Maybe she was saying those things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, if her response to the proposal was any indication, I wouldn't be too surprised.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But it might also be good for him to reflect on how he interpreted those words and that behavior. Because I have to imagine that these statements also went through the lens of his beliefs, his self concepts, his life experience, and yes, perhaps this narcissism. And they either failed to chime with what he believed to be true of himself, so he's like, no, I gotta prove her wrong. Or they revealed some tender spots underneath this narcissism. And that might have equated to what? You want a cookie?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That description did strike me as a little, I don't know, editorialized somehow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, you know, the ego is a powerful editor, right? So whether she really meant those things or not, maybe that motivated him to prove her wrong. But there's something in there for him to consider solid theory.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, we can't know for sure. Think maybe there's something to that. All part of the post relationship work that I think he needs to be doing. We could talk about this for the rest of the episode. This was a saga, but I hope that gives you a few new angles here, man. I think you did the right thing in getting out. I think your read on all this is generally correct. I also think you had to have this relationship in order to learn some crucial stuff about yourself. And if you do, then you'll avoid a relationship like this again, only become a better leader and human being. I'm sorry things went down this way. I'm sorry that you lost your job. I'm sorry about the house stress. But I know you'll solve these more tactical problems one way or the other. In the meantime, it's all learning. Take care of yourself, bud. And good luck, Gabe. I really think they're pushing guilt on him to get him to let leave them the house. Right? Like this is your fault for leaving me. So now you have to make it right. It's like, no, you threatened to kill me. I don't owe you anything. Certainly not the ability to live in my house essentially rent free with your kids. I think this is a manipulative trick because she knows he feels bad. So she's like, I'm just going to keep poking that because I need a place to live and this guy's going to pay for it, even though it's not good for him.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sadly, you might be right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it really looks like that to me. All right, listen everybody, if you fast forward through these ads, I will kill you. This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. When I used to live in Michigan, my winters, they were just brutal. It's not the cold that was bad enough, but the just total lack of sunlight. It's dark. By 5pm Maybe even earlier, I'd start to feel that seasonal depression creeping in. I didn't even realize how much it was affecting my mood until spring finally hit and I was like, oh yeah, this is what feeling normal feels like. This time of year can be tough for a lot of people. That's why BetterHelp is encouraging everyone this November to reach out to check in on a friend. Call someone you haven't talked to in a while, grab coffee with that person you've been meaning to see. We're just healthier when we stay connected. And if you've been thinking about therapy, this is a great time to start as well. Betterhelp makes it easy. They match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs and if it's not the right fit, you switch anytime. They've got over 30,000 therapists. They've helped more than 5 million people, including yours truly this month.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Is also sponsored by Ball and Branch. This time of year, everyone's talking about holiday upgrades, new phone, new luggage, new whatever. But one of the best upgrades you ever make is going to be your sleep. And Jen and I have been using Bowlen Branch sheets for years now. I'm telling you, there's no going back. You can feel the quality the second you climb in. They're soft but crisp, super breathable. What's actually kind of crazy is they get softer with every wash. I didn't think that was possible because my other sheets got grosser and harder with every wash, but this is something you notice. We've been using our Bolan Branch sheets for years, can attest to that. Not all textiles are created equal. You can tell Bolan Branch is supreme. Everything's 100% organic cotton. No shortcuts, no weird coatings or whatever is on there. Just genuinely premium bedding that lasts. Their best sale of the year is happening right now, 25% off site wide. So if you've been thinking about upgrading your sleep, now is definitely the time. They've got duvets, blankets, pillows, the works, all made with the same next level quality and you can shop worry free with their 30 night guarantee. Once you've slept on Bolan Branch, you'll get why we've stuck with them for so long.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around here. The lights that somebody else pays the bill for. Ideally, all the deals, discounts and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday, what's next?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hi, guys. My husband is a teacher working toward his certification. He didn't get a degree in teaching. Instead, he did a post education program to become a teacher after he didn't like the jobs he was getting with a marketing degree. He's passionate about education and has poured his heart into this career. But right now, he's being physically assaulted by a student in his classroom. These aren't isolated incidents. They've happened multiple times. A student was kicked out of three different schools last year. He did the right thing and reported it to the principal, but he was basically told, tough luck. No action from the school, no support, nothing. It's like they expect him to just absorb the hits and keep teaching. He feels as though he's not getting taken seriously.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If that's true, that is super uncool.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That is wild.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sorry.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This kid is slowly escalating to shiving you in the cafeteria, but you have testosterone, so you're on your own, my man. Seriously.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, women also have testosterone, but I know what you're. I know what you're trying to say. Sorry, Mr. Thompson, but we all know bullets hurt less when you're a dude. Maybe start taking Krav Maga that you can't use on a student because you're not allowed to fight back and focus on your lesson plan. Unbelievable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He works at a charter school, so there's no union. The worst part is he's terrified that if he escalates this, maybe by calling the police, he'll get fired. With no other schools hiring in our area in Michigan, that could derail his entire certification process. He's so close to finishing those required hours and years, but at what cost to his safety? It feels like he's trapped between protecting himself and saving his dream job. Are there any real strategies available to us? Are there any legal protections or ways to document this without blowing up his future? Could you share any advice or even just point us toward resources for teachers who are in this bind, debating whether to dwell and quell, yell and raise hell or just wait for the bell without sounding the death knell for a career my guy loves?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, this is crazy, man. It's crazy what teachers are expected to put up with in this day and age and still teach? Yeah, sorry. Your pay is crap. We're gonna allow this kid to assault you, something that would never be allowed literally anywhere else in society. You can't do that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Good point. I didn't even think about that. Imagine if you just went to an office job and there was a guy who would, like, punch you in the face every fifth day, and they're like, yeah, it's just part of the job. Sorry.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why? You can literally face criminal consequences. If you are an MMA fighter fighting another MMA fighter and you punch them or do something wrong at the wrong time, that is still criminal assault. If you're a boxer and you bite someone or you kick them, it's criminal assault. But if you do it in a school, it's, well, sorry, yeah, no, she's a tough cookie. You really got to watch out for her. She's a biter. She'll claw your eyes out. What planet am I on?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But it's also because they're children. But the problem is that putting this off, not doing anything, is also doing a disservice to this kid. He either needs to live with the consequences of what he's doing to his teacher, or he needs serious intervention. But instead, they're just letting him remain in the classroom and cause mayhem. So nobody's getting served.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. How did this kid even end up getting into this charter school? This is insane. Also, Gabe, I wonder if the student's a girl. We don't know. Right?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's interesting. Yeah. She's not clarifying that, but I assumed it was a boy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know, just because of the violence. But also, it's like if a male student assaults a teacher, it's like, of course that hurts. It's a man punching you. But if it's a female student just slapping you, it might just be like, ah, she's annoying and she's out of control. Huh.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's possible.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Tough cookie, she, that one. It's possible, objectively, if you're getting punched by another man, who, even if they are a teenager or whatever, it still hurts. It's hard to say. I'm speculating, though, that it might be female, because whenever females assault men, even adults, it's just kind of like, oh, well, she slapped you. Doesn't give you the right to do anything. And it's like, well, actually, I still got assaulted and beat up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's true.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Anyway, we wanted to run your story by an expert, so we reached out to Neil Rambardo, in house counsel for a large school district with approximately 8,000 employees. And the first thing Neil said was, he feels awful for your husband. It is a really tough place to be. The second thing he said was, and now you know that I'm not the only attorney who knows this is crucial. He said your husband should absolutely document every single incident with this student and every discussion he has with his administrator about it. If the school fails to take steps to protect your husband, Neil said that he might have a lawsuit. That was my first thought as well. Like, oh, you told your boss, and they said, tough luck. Well, that sounds like a juicy lawsuit. But Neil's honest take is he always recommends against lawsuits because, yeah, you hear about people making large sums of money and the ads on TV, right? But those are 1% of the cases in his experience. And as he puts it, litigation is a long, difficult process that takes an emotional toll on everybody except the lawyers who take large sums from plaintiffs. And I totally concur. Instead, Neil said that your husband could use the documentation we were just talking about to report this charter school's issues to the Michigan Department of Education. From what he could tell, that's the agency that oversees charters. Now, Neil recognizes that this could result in him losing his job, but in his view, this school is ultimately failing him and this student by not addressing these behavioral issues. And so the question for Neil is, does he really want to work at a place that treats employees and students like this? Also, if he decides to report this to the Michigan Department of Education, Neil said he would probably have whistleblower status. And the cool thing about whistleblower status is it would protect his job. Neil said that it's usually a simpler process to get reinstated as a whistleblower and to even potentially get damages than it is to file a lawsuit.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Another thing Neil said you should consider is whether this student is a special education student or a general education student. And also, how old is this kid? He said that if the child is in special ed, there are many strategies available to your husband. For one thing, the school should have taught him proper holds to protect himself and the student, which I'm guessing is different from Krav Maga. Like some special technique that's designed to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, you probably can't hammer fist the kid in the face. I think that's a Krav Maga move.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm guessing that's probably not on the table. Second, the student could receive what's called a functional behavioral assessment to see what triggers this child. And after the fba, the school, along with the teacher, should set up a plan to address those triggers. Neil said that's usually done with what's called a board certified behavioral analyst, a bcba. If the student has extreme behaviors, they could be placed in a social intervention program, which is like a class with more aids, more supports and criminal charges could be available, although Neil strongly discourages that unless things really escalate. So we understand that this is a charter school, but Neil said that the law requires them to support special education students the same way as traditional public schools. But the thing is, if this student is in special ed, then the law ultimately favors the student staying in the least restrictive environment. Now, if the child is general education, Neil said that the school should provide what's called multi tiered systems of support services to address this kid's behaviors. And the school should also work with this kid's parents, by the way, to address these issues with the student both at home and in the classroom. So Neil said that the student could also be moved to an alternative setting and or even expelled from school and have to take homeschool classes. Also, if he is a general education student, then Neil said that criminal charges would be more appropriate. But again, kind of depends on this kid's age. Bottom line, though, Neil said that your husband's school should be providing these supports with him and not just leaving it up to him to deal with the student on his own and fend for himself.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That makes a ton of sense. So those are your options. Friendly. I'm very sorry your husband is going through this. It must be very scary to regularly be assaulted by a student and to have your principal just throw their hands up like, well, sorry, nothing we can do about it. Maybe bring a bat to school. Oh, by the way, you can't use it. It's insane. It's ridiculous. I hope your husband finds a way forward here or just decides to leave and finds another job that will allow him to finish his certification. He sounds very passionate about education, and the system really needs people like him, so we are rooting for him. I hope he stays safe, and we're wishing you all the best, Gabe. It's insane to me that this kid gets kicked out of multiple schools and they're just like, well, you put up with it because you don't really have any leverage. It's like, how about I sue the shit out of all you guys? How's that sound, pal? Unbelievable. You can reach us [e-mail], keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your ex has just dropped the bomb that she secretly felt coerced into sleeping together during your marriage. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up fridayordanharbinger.com, we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter if you haven't signed up yet, Wee Bit Wiser is a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from the show, it is a great companion to the show as well. You can sign [e-mail] Newsletter alright, next.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Up Dear Jordan and Gabe, My parents are in their late 70s and I'm trying to convince them to sell their paid off condo and purchase a smaller, more accessible house. While financially it makes sense, selling the condo would give them more than enough capital to buy a new smaller home outright, they are incredibly resistant to the idea. Their main concerns seem to be the quote unquote hassle of selling and the prospect of having to pay more in property tax as their condo retains a lower appraisal value. However, the condo presents several growing problems that will only worsen with age. One of them is stairs. They currently have to walk up three flights of stairs to reach their unit and then another internal flight of stairs to access the second floor of their condo. This is already a significant struggle for them. Their laundry facilities are coin operated and located in a common area that's a five minute walk from their unit. This is becoming increasingly difficult to manage. I'm worried about their long term well being and safety in this environment. As they continue to age, these physical challenges will become insurmountable, potentially leading to falls or isolation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Also big factors.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, my brother and I have brought this up to my parents a few times, but it was met with the property tax and hassle excuse. I offered to help. Mentioned to them that I have a real estate agent and offered my knowledge since I recently purchased a house with my wife. My mom's usual response is I'll think about it, but no action is taken afterwards and I have to bring it up again. We haven't had a formal sit down with the family so that might help, but this feels like an endless cycle. What should we say? How do we approach this if we do? Any advice on how to address their fears about the selling process or property taxes? Do you have any suggestions, psychological approaches or practical ideas on how to navigate this conversation and help them see the benefits of making this move now before it becomes an emergency? Signed Trying to be fair and not sink into despair when my parents declare that they don't need my care, even though I'm prepared for the day they're so impaired that they won't climb the stairs. Which is a timeline I cannot bear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good question. Filing this one under how to convince well meaning but frustrating family members to do what they should be doing anyway.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So tough. This general category of letter is really tough.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. I think when you, whenever you encounter this kind of resistance or avoidance, it's always because underneath there's fear.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yep.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Fear of change, fear of the unknown, fear of it not working out, fear of it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They're going to do it and it's going to go sideways.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly, exactly. If you're going to make real progress here, I think it's going to be by getting to that root, helping them acknowledge it, making them feel safe to trust you to help them through it. So there's two basic approaches here. Approach one is you gently bring this up over and over in different ways until your parents finally realize that this is the right solution, that you're going to take care of them, that they can do this. And if that works, amazing. Problem is there's no guarantee they will. I know how parents like this are. Right. Okay. They're probably saying yeah, we'll think about it, but they're not thinking about it. They're just hoping you won't bring it up again and that it will just never be a problem, which is ridiculous. That's not going to serve anybody. Approach two, you turn up the heat, maybe you go dark. Jordan. Well you know, little gray Jordan. It's funny, back when I worked in sales, I got really into sales techniques and I learned about this idea. Anybody who's worked in sales is going to know what I'm talking about. I think it was called, it's like take them through the pain or take them to the pain or something like that. The idea is basically get the customer, get the potential customer to see how bad things are and, or how bad things are going to get if they don't buy your product. So you walk them through that nightmare vividly, step by step and you get them into a kind of low grade fear spiral or maybe not so low grade and then you hand them the solution which is your product or service. Like tada. Fear solved. Like it's manipulative, it's self serving, it works in sales really well and when it's legit. So if this is a real thing, like you're not just making up some reason for them to be afraid when the customer really will be in a world of pain if they don't buy your product or service. It's great for everyone. Then it's just good salesmanship when they won't. It's gross and manipulative and not cool. But that's a whole other topic, the ethics thing. So you could take your parents to the pain. And what that means in this context is you just got to paint a very vivid picture for them of what's going to happen if they stay in this condo. As they age financially, physically, emotionally, what is it going to be like for them to have to live there? As they slow down, what is it going to be like for you to have to help them? How hard is it going to be to climb those stairs? You want to go to the bathroom? Cool. I hope you don't mind getting a full body workout on the way up those stairs or back down. How taxing is it going to be to do the laundry so far away? Oh, you wanted clean clothes, all right. Get your shoes on. Get your jacket on. It's snowy and icy out there. Make sure you got quarters. Oh, you got to go to the bank and get them. Okay. Have fun with that. It's a whole day activity now to do your freaking laundry.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

How awful is it to break your hip in the stairwell at 87 and no one finds you for three hours? And maybe you have to go to the hospital and then you have to have hip replacement surgery? And you know, how quickly do old people decline and simply die when that happens? How much money are you going to have to give up when you finally decide to sell? Oh, the market's down. Oh, well, you can't walk, so you have to sell now. Sorry. Or if they have to do a quick sale because somebody's really down and out, or they need the money. I mean, it's. This is all just. You got to bring them through this, and they're gonna. They're gonna realize that they're staying in a comfortable spot, and it's way worse than where they should be. How guilty are they gonna feel about putting all this on you? How much harder is it gonna be to adjust to a new home in another five or 10 years? Think about that. The fact that they're hurting you by not letting you be a good son and help them right now, how they're gonna call you and say you were right. I wish we'd listened to you. Why didn't you get through to us back then?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm starting to see why you were so back then. This Is brutal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would also do this all over, like, months and months of time, and it was just, like, brutal. And then I'd bring them back up and feel good.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's a lot to it. Anyway, any pain point you can think of, bring it in. Embrace your inner sales. Dark Jordan Gray Jordan. Take your sweet aging parents to the pain.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean.

[Dr. Scott Lyons]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Shamelessly coerce them into doing the right thing. That is. That is an option. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Shamelessly coerce them into doing the right thing. Exactly. Look, is this kind of manipulative?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, that. It depends. Right? Is getting someone to do something that's in their own best interest manipulative? I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, good point. That's interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All of this is potentially true, you know, if they won't listen to reason, you might have to motivate them with fear.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or both, hopefully.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or both.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. First the pain, then the love. I would try to work both angles.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would also definitely do the group conversation. You haven't tried yet. I'm always a big fan of that. I think it'll be a lot harder for your parents to ignore the reality here if their kids and siblings and nephews and nieces are going, this is crazy. You have to find a new place. We're all going to make sure it goes smoothly. Everyone's going to help you move. This is a brilliant idea. Look at all these voices that think you should do this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would also turn this into baby steps as much as possible. So when you go to your parents and you say, I want you guys to downsize, I want you to move homes, that is very big. That's abstract, and that's very scary. But if you go, hey, I don't need you to make any decisions right now, but why don't we just go look at a few condos this Sunday? I'll pick you up, we'll have a fun day. We'll grab lunch. Let's just see if. If anything looks good to us. You know, that's harder for them to say no to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Totally. And if they do say no, then it's easier for you to say, okay, but, mom, dad, you're not even open to talking about this. I'm just asking you to spend a few hours with me looking at condos. Does that seem fair?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then when they see a place that they like, they'll be able to imagine this move a lot more clearly. It won't be, give up your home, you know, and love for the unknown. It'll be, let's get you into that place you're really excited about.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bingo. I feel like this is also a sales technique. Closing by a thousand tiny steps. So my parents didn't really want to move. I didn't have to do this, take them to the pain crazy thing. Well, I kind of did, actually. They didn't want to move. We asked it over and over and over. We told them all the benefits. You're going to be close to us. You're going to be close to the kids. You'll see the grandkids every day. It'll be great. California, there's no winter. Yada yada. From Michigan, right? And it marinated for months and months and months. Then it was, oh, look how big the kids are getting. It's so fast. They're only going to be young once they see the other grandma and grandpa every day. And they're so close. Wow. Do they remember? Are they gonna remember you when you come to visit for Christmas? Winter's coming up. Are you ready to deal with that nightmare all over again? Dad, do you need a new snowblower? Cause I know that at your age, it's really hard to shovel the driveway every single day. Should I hire a snowplow service for you guys? What about a landscaper? You got a big lawn. Somebody gonna cut that? You shouldn't be doing that yourself. You're gonna get sunburned again. Why don't you come here for just a few months and see how you like just skipping winter entirely. And then all of a sudden, they were like, we're moving. Oh. Another thing I did was I was like, guys, can you do me a favor? Since you're not moving, can you really organize all your files in the basement? Because when you guys are, like, 90 and I have to take a bunch of time off of work and away from my family and fly back to Michigan and do all of this by myself? It'll just be a little bit easier. And they were like, oh, let's just do this now piecemeal. And it took months for them to clean out everything and donate everything and organize everything. But they did it themselves. There was an avalanche of guilt and pain and persuasion and that now they're like, oh, we're so glad we moved out here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's like, Jesus, you totally took them to the pain. Well played, papa.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But look, even if you use these salesy techniques, I would keep meeting your parents with a ton of love, patience, empathy. This is obviously very hard for them. Like you said, it's ultimately about fear, and fear is paralyzing. So While you take them to the pain, I would also keep reassuring them that you know how hard this is. You appreciate that they're trusting you to guide them. You're not going to let things go sideways. You know, this is going to be the right move for everybody. So they don't just feel pressured, they also feel supported. Your parents are super lucky to have you looking out for them. I hope they can take in your advice and good luck. You know what's more fun than falling down a couple flights of stairs? Gabriel enjoying the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Cove Pure. You know how every holiday season there's always one person who's impossible to shop for? For me, it's my cousin. He's a minimalist. But this year I got him covered. I'm getting him a Cove Pure. If you haven't heard of it, Cove Pure is this sleek countertop water purifier that gives you instant hot, instant cold or instant warm water. I grew up drinking water straight from the tap. Back then in Michigan, you know, he didn't think about it really. But now with all the microplastics and the chemicals and who knows what, and maybe your water lights on fire, clean water feels like something you can't take for granted anymore. Cove Pure is lab certified to remove up to 99.9% of contaminants like like fluoride, lead, arsenic, pharmaceuticals, all the stuff you definitely don't want you or your kids drinking. I want my family, especially my kids, drinking the purest water possible. We know that water is a vector for a lot of really gross stuff. This thing makes it really easy. Looks great on the counter. Super simple to set up. No installation. You just plug it in and go. Pure, crisp water, the way it should be. If you're looking for a meaningful gift this season or just, you know, one for yourself, Cove Pure is it.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors. They make this show possible. All of the deals, discounts and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals if that doesn't work, you can always email us jordanordanharbinger.com, we'll dig up the codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. And now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler. I recommended a battery a long time ago, but it was kind of big. Not everybody wanted to spend, I think a couple hundred bucks on a battery. There's another one I love and I have multiple of and it's by Anker. We'll link to it in the show notes. Of course. It's got a plug on it, so it's not just a battery, it's a charger. It's got a USB C outlet on it so you can plug in your phone. But what I really love about this is it has a little lanyard on it so you can carry it on your wrist if you need to or hang it on something. And that lanyard is also a built in USB C cable so you don't have to have a separate cable. You can if you want to and it can charge two things at once while it's plugged in and then it's a battery when it's not plugged in. I use it constantly. It is a great product. It's on sale right now. Again, I'll link it in the show notes. There's multiple colors. I got one for my parents. I just, I'm in love with this thing. It is so handy to have. And when I first got a separate battery, I was like, I'm never gonna use this. And it's been one of the things that I just use constantly. Especially when I'm on the go if I'm not home all day. I just use this thing every time I travel, every time I'm in a hotel. I can't kind of live without this thing. So highly recommend looking at it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Damn, I'm gonna need one of these.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think from the travels and they're like 35 bucks. Like, it's. This is not a heavy lift. This is such an easy grab one, or grab one for you and one for your spouse or whatever, one for your friend. It's such a great product. I highly recommend these. I can't overstate that. So go grab one of those. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, if there's an episode you like, an episode you hated, well, you can keep that to yourself. But anyway, there's a lot of fun conversations going on on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. So if you're a Redditor, come join us. All right, what's next?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 14 years old, and early this year I caught Covid for the first time. My family managed to avoid it until we all caught it in one fell swoop. The worst of the symptoms lasted about two days, but the fatigue has lasted for months. The fatigue was so bad I could barely function some days. And on better days, all I wanted to do was lay down and let the earth slowly reclaim me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Brutal.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In summary, Long Covid is a bitch. Then symptoms of anxiety and depression came about, making functioning all the more impossible. I had anxiety about whether I would be able to survive the day. The thought was always in the back of my head, and it spiked when my fatigue was particularly bad. But when I rested, I felt depressed that I wasn't able to accomplish anything that day. I'm a perfectionist, and I'm used to achieving expectations that others and I place on myself. Fatigue made failing these expectations common, and I would spiral.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Tough cycle. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

By the end of the school year, I got a therapist. During summer break, I was able to recover a bit. I established a routine that helped with my lack of motivation and depression. And because the days were generally easy, my anxiety went down. My parents, who were also affected with Long Covid, gave me tips that helped me start to recover. Then the new school year started, and so did a wave of fatigue. It's not as bad as last time because I have tools to keep the anxiety and depression at bay. I'm proud to say that anxiety has not been a problem so far, but I'm struggling to find a new normal. The schoolwork isn't hard, so we can cross that off the list. My guess is that I'm putting too much energy into my social life. I've tried to be better about acting how I feel like acting tired when I'm tired, but I don't want to shut down. I like my friends. They're the only reason school is bearable. I'm just so exhausted. How do I manage my fatigue? How do I go from just barely surviving life to enjoying it again? Can I ever go back to normal? And, Gabe, if you could do the honors of the longest sign off possible, that would make my day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm really not loving this becoming a thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The sign off's about to be longer than her Covid.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I might take a Covid nap while you read this. Get some Z's. I gotta be refreshed for my response. See you guys in 40 minutes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Signed a teen who's keen to be an absolute machine, but is now chugging caffeine and clinging to a routine because even the vaccine couldn't shake these symptoms that are mean, obscene, and unforeseen. How can I succeed in this, in between, without going missing from the scene while I'm catching these Z's, all because of this damn spike protein.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, I'm back. I had the weirdest dream while I was over here snoozing. Gabe, I dreamt that you kept the sign off short, and I had to run back early to answer the question. All right, so. Interesting story. First of all, I'm sorry you've been dealing with long Covid. I understand it's pretty rare. It's like 6 or 7% of people get it. But it's definitely. This is a real thing. I was initially like, oh, psychosomatic. But a lot of people that I'm friends with that are not susceptible to just being highly suggestible people, they have it, and they say it's really debilitating. These are go getters, overachievers, and they're like, I just can't do anything anymore, so my heart goes out to you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that sucks. Interesting that the whole family has long Covid, though.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was wondering about that. Like, are they all some somehow genetically predisposed or something to having it? Or are they all dealing with the recovery in a similar way? I don't know. They just don't know a lot about this stuff, I think.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But it sounds like her parents have recovered from it because they gave her tips for getting better.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. Okay, that apparently helped. I actually did some quick research on this. The science is far from settled, but there are several studies that suggest there is some genetic or familial predisposition and that could influence the risk of developing long Covid. But a lot of the Studies are preliminary.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have to imagine that lifestyle and environment play big roles as well. It's not just genes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I read that similar baseline, health, diet, immune system traits, shared exposure history, viral load. All of that probably affects whether a family's going to get long Covid. So it seems like this comes down to genes plus environment plus exposure plus, you know, random luck. In any event, I am very sorry it's been so rough for you guys. But I'm very happy to hear you've made so much progress. You're taking care of yourself. You're creating balance. That is great. So what I find interesting about your letter is how much conflict you're in about all this. When you're fatigued, you know you need to rest. But when you rest, you beat yourself up for not accomplishing as much. And when you don't accomplish as much, you feel like you're failing your own high standards. But when you think about easing up on those high standards, you spiral. You suspect you're putting too much energy into your social life. But when you think about taking time for yourself, you're worried that you're going to lose your friendships, which are the only thing that makes school bearable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, she's really at odds with herself in so many different ways.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She is, and I think she knows that. Like she said, I've tried to be better about acting. How I feel like acting tired when I'm tired, but I don't wanna shut down. So, look, I don't wanna minimize the very real physical symptoms of long Covid. I hear you that you're exhausted. Those friends I mentioned, they talk about constantly being fatigued. They need to take naps every day. They can't work out as hard as they used to. They can't do whatever it was they were doing before, you know, playing golf every day. I don't know. At the same time, I think we need to separate out whatever physical symptoms you're going through from the thoughts and feelings that they're bringing up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because if the reality is that you're tired and need rest, then you need to be tired and rest. If you're lying down, but in your head you're going, oh, I'm failing. I'm bad. You know, you're disappointing everyone. You're lazy. Whatever thoughts come up, you're creating a tension where there just really doesn't necessarily need to be one. And actually, it's possible that this whole long Covid thing is an opportunity to look at these parts of your personality that are creating so much distress. It's an interesting question. Is the problem that you have long Covid, and you need to slow down and take care of yourself, or is the problem that you can't allow yourself to slow down and take care of yourself without worrying that you should be doing something different? I gotta let you answer that for yourself.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that is an excellent question. The other reason I think you need to separate the physical stuff and the mental stuff is. I mean, look, I'm not your therapist. I only know you from this letter. But I wouldn't be surprised if you were prone to some anxiety and depression before you got Covid. And the long Covid stuff might just be a new source of anxiety and depression, or perhaps it's exacerbating some stuff that was already there, but maybe just beneath the surface.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think that's extremely likely. And again, that's a function of her thoughts, right? Like she said, I had anxiety about whether I'd be able to survive the day. The thought was always in the back of my head, and it spiked when my fatigue was particularly bad.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So clearly her thoughts do have a lot to do with this. And there's probably some very helpful cognitive behavioral type stuff she could do to look at some of those thoughts and. And how they arise and what she does with them and how they lead to further negative thoughts and how all of that is feeding this difficult cycle. But you know what I'm about to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Say, I think so what's the root of those thoughts? Right?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If it's true that she ran a little depressive or a little anxious before, or at the very least, she was predisposed to respond to a very big setback like Covid in a certain way. If I were her, I would want to get to that stuff. And I can't help but feel that it's somehow tied into this perfectionism thing because. Because perfectionism is just really the tip of the iceberg. Underneath that is a lot of other stuff. A real anxiety about being less than perfect, being seen as less than perfect, which almost always reflects a shame about struggling or falling short. And that usually goes back quite a long way to early experiences, primary relationships, where you probably were not allowed to struggle and fail or rest or just need. Need to rest, need to play, need to not produce all the time. And to be able to do that with adults who could make some room for you to go through those phases and bear that anxiety with you and help you work through some of these experiences in a way that makes them survivable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And the whole concept of your Sense of self worth, being tied to being perfect. That's a big piece of it, too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Which is kind of a consequence of these more primitive experiences. And there's a lot more nuance to all of that. I'm sure this perfectionism thing shows up differently in every person, in every family. So I'm taking some very big guesses and I'm kind of like summing you up in broad terms, but that's kind of the shape of it. And so, in the spirit of Jordan's question a moment ago, here's another one you might want to explore. Is your problem the fatigue or is your problem the relationship with achieving that, dealing with the fatigue is now laying bare?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bingo. I'm sure she'd say it's both, but clearly it's more the latter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. I would also love to know more about what school is bringing up for her, because so much of her story revolves around that environment. Specifically.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, this got bad in school last year, but then during summer, summer break, the days were easier. Her anxiety went down. Then school starts back up again, and suddenly she's tired again.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She's tired again, but the schoolwork is not that hard, so she doesn't think that's the culprit. And now she has tools to keep the anxiety and depression at bay, which. Okay, I'm going to nitpick a tiny bit and possibly read something into that sentence that might or might not be there. But keeping anxiety and depression at bay, is that really working on the anxiety and depression, or is that just kind of like pushing some difficult feelings away?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It does kind of sound like the latter. I understand that her routine, her mindsets, they're helpful. I think we all try to stay one or two steps ahead of depression and anxiety. But you're right, this does sound like willing the difficult thoughts and feelings away. Or maybe keeping herself so busy that they don't affect her as much, as opposed to figuring out why they are arising in the first place and then learning how to work through those feelings.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I guess it depends on what she means by tools, right? If the tools are, I'm learning how to bear this anxiety and this depression better, and I now know how to talk about them with my therapist, with my parents. You know, I have a journaling practice. I play a sport to keep my mood up that I get, that's great. If the tools are, I bury myself in four hours of homework every night, and I go to a party with my friends every weekend so I can take my mind off of my worries. That's something Else.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I would argue those aren't really tools. Those are avoidance strategies.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. So we'll let her decide what is going on here and if this approach is truly helpful. It's just an interesting phrase that jumped out that made me wonder. And it's kind of part of the school context.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, but you're onto something, because her main theory for why she's tired again is that she's putting too much energy into her social life. I mean, she's a teenager. And now that we're digging into this, I do wonder what those relationships or the way she's going about those relationships are doing for her. I love that she has so many friends. I'm glad she's not isolated. But maybe what feels so costly about pulling back from her friendships is that she'd be losing something important to her. A source of stability, maybe a comfort, confirmation that she's not, you know, debilitated by the whole thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And also a system that can maybe absorb some of her anxiety or alleviate some of her depression.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. None of which is inherently bad. But it sounds like she needs to be more intentional about where she puts her energy while she recovers from this thing. So it's an interesting question why she's spending so much of it on other people.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And why exactly school is so unbearable without these friends? Because, like, okay, it's high school. We all know high school sucks a lot of the time, and your friends are a huge piece of it. But is school particularly unbearable for her because of the perfectionism thing, because of these feelings, because of this Covid stuff? If she worked on some of those things, would it feel less costly to pull back and prioritize herself more?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yep. Another good question. I also just want to remind her, high school is insane. They make you get up at 6am or whatever every day. You stay there for like eight hours or seven hours, whatever. You have sports, you have homework, you have projects, you have the rest of your life. It's actually crazy. And they design it for old administrators who want to go home at 2:30 and then like have their whole day ahead of them because they don't have a problem getting up at 5. It's just nuts. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't run along the teenager sleep schedule, physical schedule at all. And then they pile a bunch of crap on top of you. Some of the fatigue is probably tied to that. I remember being just delirious and then being like, you're going to let me drive in this condition? It's like, yeah, you have to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's so true. That's already difficult. I'm having flashbacks to high school now. We had to be there at 7:30 in the morning and there were days when I probably should not have been driving.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And it's like, okay, you've had four hours of sleep five days in a row and worked 8, 9, 10, 11 hours on homework, sports and or school. And it's like, yep, here are the car keys. Drive your SUV down some icy roads in Michigan to school. It's insane. It's so stupid.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then add on top of that, Covid.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, and of course, debilitating Covid fatigue.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Like of course your body would be begging for three months of rest.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Look, I know it's hard to separate the physical stuff from the psychological stuff. They're so intertwined. But I would keep working on both sides of this equation. On the medical front, keep following the long Covid recovery playbook. They say that you have to prioritize rest and recovery. They say don't overdo it. But also that you have to challenge yourself within your limitations, customize your pace. And if you're not getting better, I would definitely talk to your parents about going to a post Covid specialty clinic. Look into long Covid rehab. Ask your doctors about any new interventions. They're understanding this stuff more and more. I actually have a buddy who has Long Covid. He runs a pro bono, AKA free group for people. He has meetings I think every month or something like that. Email me, we'll get that information to you. And that of course goes for anybody else who's dealing with this as well. But my hunch is that the mental emotional stuff is where you're going to make the most progress. You're not just recovering from Long Covid. You're recovering from some patterns and qualities that Long Covid has revealed. If you really look at them, not just recreate them in other ways or keep them at bay, this whole difficult period could have some really big upsides. Sending you a big hug, wishing you a long nap and all the best. Go back and check out Rizwan Verk, Ken Burns and our Skeptical Sunday on Light Pollution. If you haven't heard those yet, the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. It is the circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build those same things for yourself in our six minute networking course. It's free, it's not gross, it's not schmoozy, it's on the thinkific [e-mail] build those relationships before you need them. Dig that well before you get thirsty. 6minutenetworking.com, show notes on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tatis Zadlowskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Neil Rombardo. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. Are you addicted to drama? Check out this preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with psychologist Dr. Scott Lyon.

[Dr. Scott Lyons]

Do you vent constantly? Do you find yourself changing the stories? Do you find that wherever you go there's always something that's wrong or happening? Do you find yourself believing the other shoe will always drop, that no matter how good things are, something bad is going to happen? Do you find yourself crisis hopping? If you're in it, you will have no idea that that's what you're doing. And it takes a lot of time the those addicted to drama to recognize, to even be aware of the pattern that's happening. Our primal needs as a kid is to be seen and heard, to feel safe. And so you will go to whatever extremes. Intensely shouting is needed to pierce through the chaos of a family household to be seen and heard. Even if it's burning down the house. A wave of an emotion, it lasts 30 to 90 seconds. Anything after that is the story we're feeding to maintain it. We're trying to keep that emotion active. We're feeding off the emotion as opposed to processing or metabolizing it. We're not letting it go because there's some belief system. If we let it go, we'll be victims. If we let it go, we won't be safe, whatever it is, why we won't let go of the emotion. Even a small trauma can feel like death because we feel helpless. And if we don't have the resilience capacity to know that someone will help us, there are tools out there to help us. If we don't inherently know that, it feels like we're going to drown in that moment. It feels like death.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Learn to recognize and heal from drama addiction on episode 836 with Dr. Scott Lyons on the Jordan Harbinger Show.