1248: Bitter Defamation Tests Small Town Reputation | Feedback Friday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show Episode 1248: Bitter Defamation Tests Small Town Reputation | Feedback Friday November 28, 2025

Overview

This Feedback Friday episode centers around navigating intense personal and professional conflict, family concerns, workplace challenges, and networking dilemmas, all through listener letters. Jordan Harbinger and producer Gabriel Mizrahi unpack complex situations, offer practical and psychological strategies, consult experts, and sprinkle in the show’s trademark wit and candor. The main focus is a listener enduring a malicious smear campaign in a small town, raising weighty questions about legal recourse, psychological survival, and reclaiming reputation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Surviving a Defamation and Harassment Nightmare in a Small Town ([02:23]–[23:14])

Letter Summary: A listener describes a harrowing three-year ordeal after a business partnership gone wrong. Her ex-partner turned hostile, stole inventory, rebranded products, and launched a relentless campaign of defamation, impersonation, and intimidation—both online and in their tiny community. Despite extensive documentation and failed attempts at disengagement and therapy, the listener wonders how to reclaim her reputation, whether to pursue malpractice against her negligent attorney, and what psychological strategies might bring relief.

Hosts’ Reactions:

• Jordan and Gabriel express deep empathy and incredulity, highlighting the ex-partner’s apparent instability and extreme vindictiveness.
• “She sounds like she’s out of her freaking tree and she just has way too much time on her hands. Truly disturbing.” — Jordan ([08:27])
• The prolonged, escalating nature of the harassment signals severe psychological issues, not mere pettiness.

Legal Perspective with Corbin Payne (Attorney) ([08:24]–[16:42])

• Corbin Payne, show regular and legal expert, weighs in, emphasizing that malpractice against the original attorney is likely valid given provable harm, but fighting “on two fronts” may not be worth the emotional and financial toll.
  • “Dollars to donuts, the attorney has malpractice insurance for stuff like this…The question becomes, is it worth pursuing?” — Jordan via Corbin ([09:34])
  • Reporting the attorney to the licensing board is free and may be satisfying, but won’t yield damages.
• Most urgently: Proceed assertively with the restraining order. Letting the bully act unchecked only yields more pain long-term.
  • “The best way to deal with bullies is head on...they’re pretty cocky until somebody punches them in the mouth...be brave and be relentless.” — Jordan quoting Corbin ([11:08])

Restraining Order Nuances & Tactical Advice ([12:08]–[15:30])

• Clarify with the judge: focus not on stopping speech (First Amendment), but on halting defamation, libel, slander, and direct harassment, which are not protected.
• Document meticulously; bring evidence and witnesses to court. Documentation will likely outweigh the bully’s unsupported assertions.
• If the ex-partner defies a court order, file for contempt—potentially leading to fines or jail, reinforcing the consequence of continued harassment.
  • “Walk in there with two copies of everything.” — Jordan ([14:08])
• A successful hearing can be “one of the most exhilarating experiences of your life...presenting a just and worthy case.” — Jordan via Corbin ([15:30])

On “Getting Dark” and the Importance of Clean Hands ([16:42])

• Jordan warns against any retaliatory schemes: “You want clean hands...you want to be able to say I did everything right. This woman is targeting me. I need protection.” ([17:22])

Learning for the Future: Forensic Reflection ([17:55]–[22:07])

• Analyze what warning signs might have been missed at the partnership’s outset—not to assign blame, but to empower future discernment.
  • “When you do that analysis, that reminds you that you were not totally asleep at the wheel...it is part of how you learn for the future.” — Gabriel ([18:26])
• Perform background checks, ask in the local community, and be vigilant for patterns (e.g., frequent moves, “crazy Super Bowl” history) in small-town environments.

Resilience, Self-Care & Psychological Recovery ([22:07]–[23:14])

• Stay connected to supporters, practice self-care, and stay off the bully’s radar where possible.
• Sometimes just surviving and rebuilding after a villain’s attacks is “the real victory.”
  • “But there is a way through this. And there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And it begins with getting this restraining order.” — Jordan ([23:02])

Notable Quotes and Moments:

• “The lion, the witch and the audacity of this B. Am I right?” — Jordan ([10:57])
• “No bully is ever truly brave. At best, they're foolhardy.” — Corbin via Gabe ([12:08])
• “Do the forensics on these things. It isn't just necessary to crack the case and learn whatever lesson you need…it's also part of healing.” — Gabriel ([18:09])

2. Brother Marries Suddenly—Protecting Family From Scams ([26:44]–[39:16])

Letter Summary: A police investigator’s brother elopes with a Ukrainian student after a year of secret dating. The family, already shaped by trauma, is concerned the marriage may be motivated by immigration or financial interests. What can they do to protect him or family assets?

Hosts’ Analysis:

• Jordan shares a “90 Day Fiancé” adjacent personal story—highlighting the many little red flags that, together, paint a more worrisome picture.
• Gabriel notes: “What will I wish I had said, if this goes sideways? Even if you can’t make him do anything, what can you do to support him?” ([36:32])
• Legal insight: Family members can’t directly shield another adult’s assets or intervene unless granted legal power. Offers of advice, encouragement of prenups/postnups, or separate finances are possible, but only if the brother is open.
• Importance of loving candor: “All you can do is inform him and support him as best you can...After that, it’s up to him.” — Jordan ([34:20])
• Both hosts reflect on the roles childhood trauma can play in siblings’ different coping strategies and how that shapes the way they protect or distance themselves.

3. Training Struggles with Older Employee ([40:12]–[47:10])

Letter Summary: A manager is at their wit’s end trying to train an older new hire who continually forgets basic tasks, cries under pressure, and can’t seem to become independent in her work.

Advice from HR Pro Joanna Tate:

• Have a direct, compassionate conversation—clearly outline expectations, and put the onus on the employee to articulate what she needs.
• “Stay firm but compassionate at the same time. The point of this chat is...to put it on her shoulders to come up with a solution.” — Jordan ([42:31])
• Document support and progress (or lack thereof). Escalate to HR if there’s no improvement.
• Experiment with training styles—videos, step-by-step guides, peer support—but know when a role may just not be a fit.

4. Networking Without Being “Pushy” ([53:13]–[64:46])

Letter Summary: A hearing aid provider struggles to increase sales at senior centers—fearing she’s too respectful and not persistent enough, and reluctant to be seen as “that annoying hearing aid girl.”

Jordan’s Guidance:

• The real art is learning to be “just a little pushy” without being disrespectful, and recognizing that what feels pushy to you is rarely as pushy as it seems.
• “We all need to risk being a little bit of a problem sometimes…If you're not willing to bear the tension of advocating for what you want, you're not going to change your results.” — Jordan ([58:38])
• Lean into rejection as “exposure therapy”—experiment, recalibrate, and find your authentic way to advocate for the mission behind your services.
• “If you connect to your passion in conversations, it's going to do wonders for your pitch...you're being pushy in service of this greater cause.” — Jordan ([64:46])
• Let your motivation—improving seniors’ lives—be your guide, not the sales pressure alone.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “The lion, the witch and the audacity of this B. Am I right?” — Jordan ([10:57])
• “No bully is ever truly brave. At best, they’re foolhardy.” — Corbin Payne via Gabriel ([12:08])
• “Do the forensics on these things…it's also part of healing.” — Gabriel ([18:09])
• “What will I wish I had said, if this goes sideways?” — Jordan ([36:32])
• “We all need to risk being a little bit of a problem sometimes...” — Jordan ([58:38])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:23] Small town defamation survival story, legal/psychological strategies
• [08:24] Attorney negligence and malpractice dilemma
• [12:08] Nuances of restraining orders and documentation tips
• [17:55] Learning from red flags, due diligence in small communities
• [22:07] Self-care and psychological resilience amid long-term conflict
• [26:44] Cautious cop worried about brother’s hasty marriage—protection strategies
• [40:12] Supporting, managing, or letting go of struggling older employees
• [53:13] Navigating the “pushy vs. proactive” networking balance

Conclusion

This Feedback Friday’s rich tapestry of dilemmas highlights the complexities of relationships—in business, family, and community. Through expert input, legal wisdom, and hard-won psychological advice, Jordan and Gabriel champion standing up to bullies, protecting loved ones with care but without overreach, balancing compassion and boundaries at work, and finding the sweet spot between assertiveness and annoyance in professional networking—all while keeping it real and relatable.

Listeners walk away with actionable insights on:

• Litigation and documentation in conflict
• Psychological recovery from betrayal
• Risk assessment and respectful confrontation in families
• Practical tools for difficult workplace training scenarios
• Owning their advocacy, even when it means risking being “a problem”

A masterclass in critical thinking, resilience, and empathetic action, all in the inimitable Harbinger tone.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, and our dear listeners, dilemmas to unwanted follicles apparently.

[A]

That's right. That's right. I hear we have a full dues cruise today, so let's get right into it. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[B]

Hey Jordan and Gabe. Over three years ago I co founded a small business with a woman in my very small isolated town. A dream I had nurtured for six years and invited her into. During the few months we were partnered, I stepped away from my own main business of 10 years to devote all my time to the new venture. Then shortly after we launched, while I was out of town, she abruptly turned hostile. It started when she intentionally crossed an ethical boundary I had clearly set, almost as if she wanted to provoke a conflict. There hadn't been any fight or issue before that. Her shift was confusing and extreme. At the beginning, I did everything I could to de escalate and seek resolution calmly, respectfully and with documentation to prove it. Even through her hostility and abuse, it didn't matter. She stole all of our inventory from my home studio before I returned, sabotaged the company and kicked off a years long smear campaign. Impersonation, defamation, cyberbullying, stalking and relentless social sabotage. Within two weeks of stealing the inventory, she had it repackaged under a different brand and has been selling the product and using our intellectual property ever since, while publicly claiming to this day that I owe her a substantial amount of money.

[A]

Infuriating.

[B]

She's also framed me as mentally ill and untrustworthy, weaponized and twisted, sensitive personal information about my past, posted my photo with captions like Worst person I've ever known. I escaped the devil herself and fabricated stories about me harming others and even conspiring to murder. In our local Facebook groups and her personal social media. She's reached out to landlords, business owners and my closest friends in an effort to isolate me socially and professionally, sometimes offering dinners or tea time or sending unsolicited voice memos to warn them that I'm a dangerous, manipulative narcissist hiding behind a mask, all under the guise of protecting the community and community care. It's not just online. She's followed me in her car and recently approached me aggressively on the street, then trailed me and a friend into a store after trying to confront me. She's even impersonated me in an attempt to have me committed to a psychiatric facility. In a tight knit community of just a few thousand people that I'm deeply involved in, this is devastating. Behind the scenes, several people have told me that they know she's unstable and out of control, but most are understandably afraid to stand up to her or call her out. I do believe she's digging her own grave, but the damage in the meantime has been immense. I no longer know what she's capable of as her audacity seems to have no bounds. After the theft, I hired an expensive business attorney to dissolve and settle the 5050 LLC and liquidate the assets, but due to his negligence, he sent an embarrassingly erroneous letter without my review. She was able to manipulate the situation, stall the settlement and rack up my bill, which put me into debt.

[A]

Oh my God, this is so irritating to hear. I'm so sorry.

[B]

I believe his errors gave her the justification she uses for her ongoing harassment. I've kept meticulous records of all of this, but have never responded publicly. Recently, after she escalated to posting on a public community forum accusing me of being litigious, fraudulent, exploitative and predatory, I filed for a restraining order. The temporary order was denied and I'm now hesitant to have her served before the hearing, which is scheduled in a couple of weeks. The idea that she'll read the harassment details and impact statement without a TRO in place feels legitimately terrifying. I fear it will enrage and fuel her, yet also give her the satisfaction of knowing how much harm she's caused. And if I were to lose the hearing, even though my case is strong, I honestly don't know how I would recover from that blow. I'm a single woman, self employed and managing chronic health issues. While I'm fortunate to have amazing support in this town, this campaign has wrecked my livelihood, disrupted my reputation, destroyed some friendships and consumed my peace of mind and feelings of safety. Walking away and starving this person of attention hasn't stopped it. I've been no contact since August 2022 and the constant hypervigilance is wearing me down. I've done therapy, I've made art from the pain. I've stayed off social media. I've tried every version of detachment I can think of. It seems that the more resilient and non responsive I am, the more nuclear she gets. Nothing slows her down. I'm in a nightmare I cannot seem to wake up from. How do you mentally navigate a long term campaign like this when disengagement doesn't end it? How do you protect your future when someone is actively rewriting your past? Is pursuing a malpractice case against a lawyer or a defamation case against the abuser worth the financial and emotional cost? And do you have any practical or psychological strategies beyond the legal system for surviving this kind of sustained attack? Any dark Jordan Wisdom signed looking to recover when I can't find a buffer against this woman who wants to smother other and be a real motherfucker when all I'm trying to do is discover how to be a lover and take cover.

[A]

Man, this is awful. A nightmare indeed. I'm so sorry you're Going through this, this ex partner of yours. I don't know, Gabe. She doesn't just sound mean and petty, she sounds mentally ill. Yeah. I was almost like, wow, this person is like, uber petty and uber mean. But then it was like, oh, it's been since 2022. Okay, that's not a normal time to hold a grudge at this level of intensity, if that makes sense.

[B]

You know, like, while you're also trying to run the business you want to make successful.

[A]

So it's curious that you stole from her. It's very odd. Whatever led up to this business breakup, no one deserves this kind of treatment. And you'd have to just be off your rocker to want to ruin someone's life in this way. When I had a bad business breakup, I didn't even think about doing stuff like this. Really? You're like, I hope he gets hit by a garbage truck. And then like, two hours later, you're like, ah, whatever. You teeter between apathy.

[B]

Gotta schedule my next inter. Gotta keep working.

[A]

Yeah. And then like, a few months later, you're just like, whatever. Like, if a bad thing happened, I wouldn't be like, sad about it, but I'm not gonna spend any energy making that happen. Okay? This woman, she sounds like she's out of her freaking tree and she just has way too much time on her hands. Truly disturbing. And my heart goes out to you for all of it. We wanted to talk to an expert here, of course. So we reached out to attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne. And Corbin had the same reaction we did. He said, this is awful. He hates hearing this. So to get this legal subplot out of the way, Corbyn said that it sounds like that janky attorney caused you actual damages and destroyed your case by sending a bad letter. He also said he was shocked that it was sent without your review. I frankly am too. My lawyers send me everything. And it's not just because I'm also a lawyer. I mean, they want to make sure that it's correct. In fact, Corbyn said he never does anything like that because he doesn't know all the facts about what his clients have lived through. And he's definitely capable of misunderstanding things communicated by one of his clients, as is any attorney, really. So he does feel that you have a negligence slash malpractice case against this lawyer. Dollars to donuts, the attorney has malpractice insurance for stuff like this. So he's going to be represented by an attorney paid by an insurance company. And insurance companies, they'll pay out. When push comes to shove, especially against the plaintiff, the question becomes, is it worth pursuing? Corbyn's take was if this were the only thing you were dealing with, he'd say, yeah, maybe the problem is this isn't the only thing you're pursuing and that changes the calculus for Corbyn. So he felt that you need to ask yourself if it's really worth fighting a two front war. If you're asking me, I guess I would say, like, let the lawyer thing go and focus on the main problem here. But again, that's up to you to decide. Corbyn did say that if you don't sue him, you could still report him to the licensing board. So the bar for an ethics violation and or a malpractice, they investigate. They can impose sanctions or other punishment if they decide it's warranted. That's totally free, but it's unlikely that you will get any damages from that. But there is something satisfying about reporting a bad lawyer and knowing that they're getting their ass handed to them and they're actually facing consequences from somebody they can't ignore. But look, it might be helpful to you down the line because you might be able to use it to counteract any defenses your ex partner could raise about that letter and it could help you make the case that you are not the villain here. So that bit of business dispensed with. Let's talk about the real villain here, this ex business partner, this B. Word on wheels, man. Sheesh. Gabe the lion, the witch and the audacity of this B. Am I right?

[B]

That is a classic right there.

[A]

Corbin's strong take was absolutely. Proceed forward on the restraining order. Here's why this woman is already awful. Corbin totally gets why you feel you can't bear the thought of this woman reading about how she hurt you. He gets it. We get it. But we just don't know that the pain of that is greater than the long term pain of getting her to act with impunity. Corbin's stance is the best way to deal with bullies is head on. To quote him here, they're pretty cocky until somebody punches them in the mouth in the beginning, yes, this kind of situation often hurts for the victim. The bully remains a bully. They continue to behave as such. But Corbin said that something powerful happens after a victim starts standing up for themselves. The bully starts to realize that they have no actual power. For all their strength and cunning and malice, they usually can't force their victim to do anything unless the victim consents. To it. You probably know this. Corbin has represented several former bullies and more than a few current bullies, as well as many victims of bullying. Losing control, having a victim get up and hit back after taking a pounding from the bully, he said that is a moment of profound terror for the bully. So his wish for you be brave and be relentless.

[B]

Yep. To quote him one more time here, he said no bully is ever truly brave. At best, they're foolhardy. And I think that might apply to a woman who is putting herself at considerable risk to make your life a living hell. So Corbin wanted to dig into this a little deeper and he made a few assumptions after reading between the lines of your email. He might not be right about every single one, but he wanted to get into this a little bit more. So Corbin has a suspicion that you asked the judge to grant a temporary restraining order in which the judge orders your ex partner to stop saying certain things. If that's the case, Corbin said that it won't fly because we have a First Amendment right to free speech. Right. So entering into an order to make her stop saying certain things about you, that is going to be a tough sell. But that doesn't mean you're out of options. Corbyn feels that you need to be asking the court to order her decease, Defaming, libeling, which is written defamation, slandering, which is spoken verbal defamation and or harassing you. Those actions are not covered by the Constitution. She doesn't have a protected right to do those things. Corbyn said a judge can absolutely order that nonsense to stop. And it is a subtle distinction, but it's an important one. So his advice there is, after getting in front of the judge, stress this aspect of her conduct and her statements with all of your documentation, ask for protection against abuse, defamation, slander, libel. Corbyn said that's the framework in which the judge can operate.

[A]

Yes. Corbyn is also thrilled that you've meticulously documented everything that's critical and you can probably bet this woman hasn't documented anything. I don't know what it is about bullies, but they're so cocky. And this person is also sort of like not all there. I think it's very unlikely that they've created the documentation that's going to be persuasive in court.

[B]

And it would be a whole other layer of crazy if she were actually documenting her own harassment and abuse of our friend here. On Tuesday, March 3rd, I drove and tailed her to the hardware store in town.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That's not happening. She doesn't know where she was, which day, when.

[A]

I mean, I suppose there's a world in which she documents things that are only happening in her mind and then. But it's like, okay, and she doesn't document her response to those things. So when you say that she's engaging in misconduct and she's swearing she didn't, it's really going to be your documentation that wins the day. So get tactical for a moment. Walk in there with two copies of everything. Depending on your state's rules of evidence, you will likely have to hand a copy to her or her attorney and another to the judge. If you need to play videos or audio recordings, make sure to bring whatever equipment as well as AV hookups to facilitate that. Maybe you even consider bringing in a few other witnesses who can also document what's been done. Like that friend you walked into the store with that day that she followed you.

[B]

And if the judge orders your ex partner to quit harassing you, then she faces an important choice. Does she give it up and concede defeat, or does she double down and keep harassing and defaming you? If she concedes defeat, then you'll have peace, which would be so sweet. If she doubles down, then you can hit her with a contempt of court petition. She could be looking at fines and or jail.

[A]

And if all this fails, you also have the option to sue her for defamation, libel, slander, conversion, which is theft, basically all of that. That's a whole other topic and not one I'd necessarily recommend doing right now. But if you do, you're going to want to consider hiring another attorney, a competent one, of course. Maybe this time it's not fun, but Corbyn really wants you to keep up the pressure and keep fighting back until this woman gives up.

[B]

Corbin had one last piece of wisdom for you. He said that standing up in a trial or in a hearing when you're in a big courtroom is strange. It feels like you're the center of attention, all eyes are on you. He said it can be one of the loneliest feelings in the world. It's scary, but he also said that it's absolutely one of the most exhilarating experiences of your life. He said few things can actually touch it. You can reduce the anxiety and the fear that you have with plenty of preparation, bringing plenty of documentation, having a good attorney by your side. If you feel flustered, you can keep yourself from tripping or stumbling by listening carefully to the judge. And you can always say, hey, can I just take a moment, collect your thoughts and then speak. But in Corbyn's experience, it is a grand thing to present a just and worthy case and and he believes that you have a very just and worthy case and to also know that while you're up there by yourself, you are not alone, he said. And I love Corbin for saying this, he said, consider me there beside you in spirit and I am pretty confident I can also say that the members of our show Fam who care about justice are also with you in spirit. So kick ass and let us know how it goes. I hope you can really make the Shrew squeal which fully on board with this sentiment.

[A]

That's funny. I 100% concurrently. Now, I know you're asking for some dark Jordan thoughts and believe me, I would love to give some to you. But in a case like this, where you will probably soon be facing this person in a courtroom or in some kind of legal process, or you might one day be suing her, what you don't want to do is create a situation where the judge hears how you also set up some scheme where her business is getting carpet bombed with one star reviews from the Internet or her inventory she stole from you. It's suddenly tainted for some weird reason. Whatever dark scheme you've cooked up and that it can loosely pin it on you, you want clean hands, even if it's not relevant, the judge might look at any dark stuff you've done and go, okay, this person is also kind of a piece of crap. Let them sort it out. This could be a judge, a mediator, arbitrator, a jury, it doesn't matter. But you don't want that appearance of everybody sucks here. When you're bringing a tort against someone, when you're trying to tell the story that you are the true victim and you have the moral high ground, you want to be able to say with total confidence, especially given how nerve wracking this already is for you. You want to be able to say, I did everything right. This woman is targeting me. I need protection. You don't want to invite unnecessary gray area.

[B]

I completely agree. I just want to touch on one other thing here, and it's a little delicate in a case like this where one party is clearly the aggressor. But I do wonder how our friend here decided to get into business with this woman and if she might have along the way overlooked any red flags or curious signs at the start, or maybe even failed to look closely in the first place, and if maybe that played some role in all of this at the beginning. We've talked about this before, Jordan doing the forensics on these things. It isn't just necessary to crack the case and learn whatever lesson you need to learn so this doesn't happen again. It's also part of healing from these things. So when you go, oh, you know what? I did notice that weird thing, or that first time we had coffee, and she said that thing about that person who used to be in her life and they don't talk anymore. And I got a strange feeling, but I just didn't think about it again. When you do that analysis, that reminds you that you were not totally asleep at the wheel, right? Your alarm system was not completely offline. It was still there operating, but you didn't fully honor it. And that hurts. And it's upsetting. It's a bit of an injury, but it's also reassuring and comforting. And yes, it is part of how you learn for the future. And I think that is one big way to protect your future, as you put it, when someone is actively rewriting your past.

[A]

100% agree. I always get slightly sweaty when we bring up this point because the last thing I want to do is seem like I'm victim blaming, like you said, especially in a case like this. But I do feel that being the victim, that's compatible with acknowledging that there might have been some interesting signs. And it's definitely compatible with acknowledging that it would be wise to. To clock signs like these in the future or do more homework on somebody before doing a business with them. Like, I always recommend people do a background check on people they go into business with. Like, it won't always help. You know, you go into business with somebody when you're 25, they don't have a record. Maybe they have moved a normal number of times. But it's interesting. I recorded a show with an expert on con artists, and he told me that he also does background checks on any person who holds a significant position in his life. Friends, acquaintances, colleagues, babysitters, everyone. He just has a membership, Gabriel, to.

[B]

One of those, you know, like, databases.

[A]

All the people find me.com, whatever it is. So with somebody this crazy, he wants to see if there's any criminal history, any lawsuits, any sort of weird debts or dodgy assets. This stuff can show up in weird ways. So with somebody this crazy, I don't know, man. It's just a good bet they didn't probably start being this crazy just with you. Good point. Like, you know someone who is crazy, you ask people that know them. And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Kate, she's got issues. And you're like, oh, okay. It's not just me. There's a really good chance if you're in your 30s and you're dealing with somebody crazy, this ain't their first rodeo. They've already been to the crazy Super Bowl a couple of times. So look for a track record of crazy. It's not always there. Again, this is not foolproof. It's just, it's possible this woman has never been indicted or sued or caught doing anything, but maybe she has. And, and so it's easy to do this kind of due diligence on people. It might not have saved you here, but then again, maybe it would have.

[B]

Especially in a small town. Right? She said only a few thousand people live where she lives. Word gets around fast, clearly, because this woman is unfortunately very successful in turning the community against our friends. So even if this woman doesn't have a criminal record or hasn't been a defendant in a lawsuit, maybe our friend here could have asked around a little bit more. Maybe she could have slowed down the early phases of their business relationship, spent more time with her in their social circles, gotten more data. In a way, it's even easier in a tight knit community.

[A]

Absolutely. Another interesting thing to look for, people who cause this kind of ruckus, they often move around a lot out of necessity. The average person moves like 11 times, I think he said, in their life. The woman who conned that guest I told you about, she had moved something like 44 times in 20 years or it was nuts. It was like every six months she moved somewhere. It might have even been more than that.

[B]

That's huge red flag.

[A]

Huge red flag. Now look, maybe there's some job where that's normal, like you're in medical device sales or the military or something. Even then every six months. That's a lot. But all other things being equal is probably not a red flag. If somebody has a job like that and everything else is fine. But if Janice, who sells dream catchers on etsy has moved 13 times in the last eight years, what's going on? That's a little bit more serious.

[B]

I've heard of that story. That's right.

[A]

Just another interesting.

[B]

What's dream catcher drama? Did you get into Janice?

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. She's on the run for infringing on dreamcatcher patents in other countries. It's just another interesting data point to look for even in the absence of overtly concerning information beyond that, please make sure you're taking good care of yourself. Surrounding yourself with a couple good friends, advisors, experts, venting and processing all this stuff with the right people sleeping enough. Moving your body, getting out in nature. Hopefully on a trail this Looney Tune doesn't frequent. Like maybe don't go to the same park in Birdwatch. But it's crucial just to take care of yourself. Not just so you don't go out of your mind, but so that you're in the best possible shape when you present your case and you secure that restraining order.

[B]

I assume part of the reason you're saying that, Jordan, is that there is a theme in her letter of being deeply shaken, affected, traumatized by this woman. Very understandable reasons. If this woman isn't going to let up anytime soon, or if she is not going to win in the bigger picture with this business, she's going to have to heal and move on in some way that is her own right. She has to find a way to protect herself from letting this woman ruin her life.

[A]

I concur. It's just another hard part of a story like this to tackle. But sometimes the villains get away with a lot. And it's still on the victims to build up the parts of themselves necessary to survive, which is sometimes the real victory. I'm so sorry this is happening to you. You don't deserve any of it. There are really bad people out there with nothing better to do than. Than to fixate on another person. It's a unique kind of crazy, and it must be crazy making. But there is a way through this. And there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And it begins with getting this restraining order. So stay strong, stay focused, and trust that the system will support you if you work it the right way. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else is batshit crazy, Gabriel? The deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Jasper. You don't really think about the air in your house. It's invisible, right? But the truth is, the air we breathe in all day has a huge impact on our health. We worry about what we eat, how much we sleep, what supplements to take. But clean air is just as important. Indoor air can actually be way more polluted than outdoor air. It's full of dust, pet dander, allergens, even particles from cleaning products, cooking, God knows what else. And if you live anywhere near wildfire zones or a city with poor air quality, it gets even worse. That stuff, it doesn't just disappear. It sits in your lungs, it triggers allergies, it messes with your sleep, your focus and your energy. That's why having something like Jasper in the house makes a huge difference. It's not about being fancy, it's about feeling better. Breathing clean air helps your body recover faster, reduces inflammation, supports your immune system. You wake up clearer, you sleep better, you feel more alert during the day. We've got a Jasper in every room and you can literally feel the difference. The air smells fresher, it feels lighter. And knowing it's quietly scrubbing out all the junk you can't see, that's peace of mind. If you want to take care of your health in one of the most overlooked ways possible, start with your air. Jasper is offering 25% off the Jasper Pro. Just go to Jasper Co Jordan and use code Jordan. This episode is also sponsored by Aura Frames. Every year we take a million photos over the holidays. The kids opening gifts, the one uncle falling asleep on the couch, the same family recipe on the table. And then they sit on our phones forever and nobody ever looks at them again. And that's why I love Aura Frames because it's like reliving your favorite holiday traditions. Every day you upload your photos right from your phone using the Aura app and they just appear in the frame instantly. You can even add videos up to 30 seconds long. I love that it plays live photos as well. You can preload it before it ships to somebody, which is really cool. So you can add a little message. It comes in a beautiful gift box, no wrapping required. It's personal, it's easy, and it's one of those GIFs that actually means something. So when they open it, the photos are already on there, right? They don't have to call you and be like, load the photos. I don't understand how to plug it in. Like, you won't have to deal with that. We've got our Aura frame in our kitchen and every day it rotates through photos of family trips, holidays, the kids growing up, all the moments they get lost in the shuffle. And you look at it once on your iPad when you're trying to look for something else. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it for a limited time. Visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Jordan at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code jordan. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next?

[B]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, My younger brother Mark and I have always had a relatively close relationship. We grew up in a difficult and abusive home, which in some ways bonded us but also left deep emotional scars as adults. That trauma has affected Mark's ability to trust our family. He often makes major life decisions without consulting or informing any of us. For example, two years ago he legally changed his first and last name to distance himself from our family rather than seeking therapy for his past trauma. Then this year, something happened that completely caught me off guard. I got married in May and Mark was part of the wedding party. He was involved and supportive throughout. During the wedding, I noticed he asked a lot of questions about marriage and relationships, but I didn't think much of it at the time. A couple months later, he called me to tell me that he had gone to Las Vegas in July and eloped. I was shocked. He hadn't mentioned dating anyone seriously. He explained that he met his now wife about a year and a half ago in college and that they had been dating for a year. She's Ukrainian, here on a special university scholarship and doesn't yet have her green card. Naturally, I had a lot of questions. Mark insisted that they're in love and that she isn't using him for immigration purposes or money. Still, I'm worried. My brother isn't wealthy, but he has worked hard and saved a substantial amount for his age. I can't shake the fear that he might be taken advantage of, especially given his history of emotional vulnerability and distrust of family. I'm a police investigator, so I'm just trying to explore every possible option and resource we could use. I want to respect his autonomy but also protect him from potential harm and be ready to help him if need be. Are there any legal or financial protections my husband, our family, or I can put in place in case this turns out to be a scam or if the marriage was made under false pretenses? Anything else we can do to prepare or protect ourselves if things go south in his marriage? Signed a cautious cop currently in a strop because she's looking to stop this woman from trying to swap her circumstances by tying the knot.

[A]

Ooh, interesting little feedback. Friday, 90 Day Fiance crossover episode going on here.

[B]

Who knew the Dews crew stopped in Odessa, huh?

[A]

Every port in every country. There's no place on earth that Deuce Cruise does not venture.

[B]

Chugga dudes, doos dooze doos.

[A]

So, first of all, I'm very sorry to hear about this childhood you had. I'm sorry that it's affected you and Mark so much. It's tragic. I get why you're on edge. You want to protect your brother after a lifetime of this stuff. I'm sure you're also looking at all this with your cop glasses on and going, is this really safe? Is this legit? What is this woman truly after? It's a hard place to be. So I had a buddy a while ago now, and he was dating a girl from another country. And she was nice, but she was way younger and she was. Spoiled, I think is maybe the word I'm looking for. I don't know, there were just some flags.

[B]

Like What?

[A]

She had $4,500 handbags where I was like, damn, that's a really nice bag. And then I was like, wait, aren't a random college student that goes to school online?

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

And then also I noticed that one of her favorite places to travel was Dubai. And I was like, in this day.

[B]

And age, that unfortunately can be a bit of a red flag.

[A]

Some people love Dubai. But when you're a 20 year old girl with $4,000 handbag, why are you going to Dubai?

[B]

Girl?

[A]

Yeah. How did that happen? I remember she told all of us, God knows what the context was, but that her ex boyfriend had given her like $8,000 for her birthday. Just cash. Okay, yeah, okay, Maybe it was 4,000, but like, and then they were going to go somewhere and he's like, yeah, it's kind of expensive. And she's like, oh, it's not that bad. Flights are only. And it was like insane. And he's like, what? I saw half that. And she's like, well, these are business class seats. I don't like to fly economy. And it's. Girl, you are 21. What are you talking. You've never had a job. You've never flown economy. You don't care about the prices. You have handbags that are worth more than my first car. What is happening?

[B]

Oh, God, where is the story going? I think I already know, but so.

[A]

We were just like, yeah, there's something going on here. And then one day I remember like, she had her travel documents out because she was doing something. I can't remember what it was. But then I was there, and I was like, I want to look at her passport.

[B]

That was the pregnant pause. I was like, I know you got.

[A]

To pass right now, but I was hella suspicious. And I was like, huh.

[B]

What were you looking for, though? Were you looking for stamps?

[A]

I was looking for stamps, yeah. Dubai entry visas or, like, something. But the name that we knew her by was different than the one in her passport that said people from other countries have 10 names sometimes. So, like, you might be like, Alexandra, but then your name is actually something totally different. And you go by your middle name, and you have the different last name than the one on your passport because your parents did, like, who knows?

[B]

Yeah, we've all read toll screen.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Or just, you know how Hispanic people have 18 names because, I don't know, they're classy like that.

[B]

Mother's maiden name, middle name.

[A]

Yeah, it's one of those things where each little thing individually, like the previous question. Each little thing individually, not a big red flag. Oh, you use a different name than what's on your passport. No big deal, right? Some people have legal names. They use different ones of their credit cards than they do with their friends. Okay, fine. And then it's like, oh, but you've never had this. And you have these handbags and you go to Dubai all the time.

[B]

And it was just like, okay, dude, I'm on tenterhooks. What happened?

[A]

Finally, we were just like, dude, there's so many red flags here. This is sus. But more importantly, your values and your lifestyle just don't match. You, like going camping and, like, doing houseboat parties with your friends and going to music festivals, and she likes going to luxury shopping malls in Dubai. This is not a good match, dude. And there was an age gap, too. Like, again, each thing individually, maybe not a deal breaker, but altogether. So finally, we were like, okay. And then. So he broke up with her. And we felt bad because we were like, did we just, like, ruin this relationship? Three months later, she married a different dude. Oh, three months. Because we were like, oh, she just wants a green card. This is a bunch of bs. And then we were like, oh, we better be right about this. And then, like, three months later, she was married to another guy, and we were like, huh? She gained a little bit of weight. Oh, my God, she's pregnant.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So it was just like, yikes. And that was one of the things this person had told us that was another flag. I didn't mention this because it's a little icky, but he. She was like, yeah, she hates using condoms because they don't feel good. And I'm like, dude, she is trying to baby trap you 1000%.

[B]

That is terrifying.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway, not to give you nightmare fuel.

[B]

What have we done here? We just made our friend here spiral out.

[A]

I'm not saying everyone from another country who marries an American is like this, obviously, but this stuff does happen. So I really do understand your concern. The bad news is, based on what I know, there's very little family members can do to protect another adult's assets once they're married.

[B]

Is there anything really can do? I don't think so.

[A]

You can not leave them your assets or put them in a trust or something like that. Basically, unless your brother invites you into his affairs in some way, he gives you power of attorney or some form of shared control over his assets. Why would he do that?

[B]

He's not going to do that. Yeah.

[A]

And by the way, we quickly ran this by an immigration attorney friend of ours and he concurred. He said, you're not the spouse, you're a family member. There is just ultimately nothing you can do directly here except give advice. It's not up to you, your husband, your family, to determine the validity of their relationship. But you could try to encourage him to protect himself in other ways. He could get a post. Nup. Although that's a very tricky conversation. I've never heard of anyone doing that successfully.

[B]

Actually.

[A]

He could maintain separate bank accounts until he's totally sure he can trust his wife. He could ensure that any significant assets and accounts remain in his name unless he chooses otherwise later. Although, here's the thing. She might be entitled to these regardless, especially to any assets earned once they're married. In many states, that would be considered joint property, and in community property states, that's subject to an equal 5050 split. Again, are you going to be able to convince him to do all this? I'm guessing not, but these are some ideas you could respectfully run by him. The reality is, we come back to this theme time and time again. You can't make your brother do anything he doesn't want to do. All you can do is inform him and support him as best you can. And that probably means going on record about the risks here, where your concerns are, how he can protect himself as best he can. After that, it's up to him, especially since they've already eloped. And if it turns out that this woman was after him for his money or his immigration status, then he has to live with the consequences. He has to learn that lesson for himself. And at that point, he might be willing to listen to you in a new way.

[B]

Exactly. I think our friend here already knows that this might be be a losing battle, or there's just only so much she can do. But what she can do is say, brother, I love you. I care about you. I want you to be happy. If this is your person, I am thrilled for you. But as your sister and honestly, as a cop, it is hard for me to turn off this part of my brain. This also comes from love. I just want to make sure that you are really thinking this through and that you're protecting yourself as much as you can. I know we don't usually talk about this stuff, and that's okay. I'm not trying to overstep. You don't have to tell me anything you don't want to. But before you move forward in this marriage, I just have to encourage you to make sure that this relationship is totally fair, totally safe, totally legit. That you are 100% sure that there are no mixed motivations or ulterior motives here. Because the reality is you are a little bit of a target because you are so successful for your age, because you're from the United States. I'm not accusing your wife of anything. I'm not saying this isn't real. I'm just saying I want to make sure that you know that this is real, that you are clear about her and that you understand what is at stake. And if you ever want to talk about any of this stuff, I'm here for that. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just want you to have a safe person to bounce off of and another pair of eyes on this stuff.

[A]

I really like that. I think in situations like this, it's helpful to ask yourself, what will I wish I had said, if this goes sideways? What will I want to know I tried to do? Even if you can't make him do.

[B]

Anything, she's saying that she wants to respect his autonomy, but also protect him and be ready to help him if need be. I think this is what that looks like.

[A]

And as we also seem to come back to a lot part of respecting someone's autonomy is coping with the feelings that come up if it turns out that she can't intervene and protect him.

[B]

Which is especially fraught for our friend here. Right. Because she's a police investigator.

[A]

So, yeah, hyper developed Sense of responsibility, always looking for the worst case scenario.

[B]

I'm actually fascinated that this childhood produced such different siblings, and it sounds like created an interesting dynamic between them. One sibling ended up struggling to trust the family, became super independent, secretive, doesn't even really want to talk about this in therapy, although there might be more complicated reasons for that. The other sibling, based on what we know, became a police investigator. Someone who I imagine takes it upon herself to, you know, to get out ahead of problems, take care of other people, keep them safe. I do wonder if her impulse to step in and protect her brother began at a very early age. And it's probably pretty hard for her to make peace with the limit of her influence in this situation. Just to imagine that there could be something wrong with this marriage and she can't do anything about it. I'm guessing that if her brother's marriage does go south, or if it does turn out that he was taken advantage of, she would have to cope with even more difficult feelings like regret, sadness, anger, both at him and at his wife, and maybe a little bit at herself. Although if she speaks up in the way that we just talked about, to your point, Jordan, I think she can largely mitigate that anger and she can feel confident that she did all she could, when she could, and that this is ultimately between her brother and his wife. All that to say her question might actually be more about negotiating that line between loving protection and inappropriate meddling and managing the feelings involved. If she fails here, which is not really a failure at all, it's not her failure, it's between. Again, it's her brother's life. But it might be more about that than any specific legal remedies.

[A]

I think that's right, yeah. I also want to make room for the possibility that this woman is not after her brother's money or citizenship. That's possible, or that's part of the equation. But it's not the only reason she married him. And he's actually married a solid person who will also benefit tremendously in some practical ways, which, of course is also fair. After all, it sounds like they've been dating for a while, even if they did elope. But in the meantime, stay close to your brother. Keep the door open, keep making it safe for him to talk to you. That's really the best thing you can do. And if you ever suspect coercion, fraud, something more serious, of course that becomes a law enforcement matter.

[B]

And.

[A]

And you'll know what to do about that. He's lucky to have you looking out for him. I hope he makes the right choice. And good luck. You can reach us [e-mail] Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you finally tried opening your heart to another person after a lifetime of transactional relationships only to have your partner move to another country after promising you she'd stay. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up fridayordanharbinger.com, we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, wee Bit Wiser. It is basically a bite sized gem from a past episode From Me to youo, delivered right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign [e-mail] News alright, what's next?

[B]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work as an accountant in a construction company. It isn't much beyond processing invoices and billing customers. My bosses have hired two more clerks so that I could move on to a more specialized area in our billing process. One of the new clerks took to it immediately, but the other clerk, an older woman previously the victim of a rif a reduction in force toward the end of her career, is struggling to figure out the new job.

[A]

Meaning she was fired.

[B]

Yep, that's right.

[A]

I never heard of that. And I've been fired at least a handful of times. Huh?

[B]

You've been out of the corporate world for too long. Riff is like a real corporate term. You haven't watched enough workplace dramas. So the letter goes on. When I was first informed that new clerks were being hired and it would be my responsibility to train them, I set out and detailed my entire process, line by line and item by item. Three months into this training and I am still being asked incredibly simple things like downloading files and figuring out how to open her email.

[A]

That's annoying. Good God, that's frustrating. Freaking Arlene over here still mastering how to log into the Corporate Outlook account.

[B]

You've got mail on top of this. She is incredibly neurotic about losing this job because she was blindsided by her last employer. So when something is brought up to her about a correction being Needed. She will cry and tell me how she cannot lose this job. Oh, that's tough.

[A]

That's tough. Yeah, I'm being a little hard on Arlene, but I actually feel bad for her. Like, I'm envisioning this woman crying in the office and being like, please don't fire me. And you're just like, oh, God, no. I'll show you how to log into Outlook for the eighth time. I'm sorry. I'm not sorry, but like, ugh, I'm sorry.

[B]

I am at my wit's end because she will ask me the same questions every day. And when I gently remind her that we've gone over this before, she will tell me that we actually haven't. And if we have, then she doesn't remember and her notes are unreliable. I feel like I'm stuck in an eternal training Groundhog day and there is no end in sight. How do I manage this employee? At what point do I give up and or say something to management? Do you have any tips for dealing with people with failing memories in the workplace? Signed, try not to be mean, but hoping to convene you chops to conceive some ideas I could glean for managing this scene when this woman keeps wiping the slate clean.

[A]

Oof. This is a tough one. Obviously, this is very frustrating for you as a manager. If I were in your shoes, man, I'd be so annoyed and pissed. But if Arlene actually has some kind of cognitive impairment or dementia, then, you know, my heart goes out to her as well. That's gotta be very scary and debilitating. But then if you literally can't remember things and you're not able to perform your job, then, I don't know, you shouldn't be working. There are other better environments for folks like this. We wanted to run all of this by an expert, so we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and HR professional for over 20 years. And the first thing Joanna said was, yeah, she agrees this is a very frustrating situation. She also said that as a manager, you've done everything you can to help her. Training, being patient, documenting processes for her to refer to. So Joanna would recommend having a one on one conversation with her in a conference room or a quiet office. And the conversation could go something like this. Listen, Arlene, I'd like to share with you some of my observations. I've heard you say a few things that stood out to me. For example, my notes are unreliable and I don't know how to open my email. These are essential parts of doing Your job. Please help me understand what you need from me right now so you can do your job successfully. And then wait for her response. She might say she doesn't know. She might give you a direct answer. She might be a puddle of tears. Whatever it is, Joanna said, that's okay. If she cries, let her cry. Have some tissues available in advance. You can stay firm but compassionate at the same time. The point of this chat is not just to have an open conversation and to give her time to get through the crying phase, but also to put it on her shoulders to come up with a solution. The real goal, Joanna said, is to get her to this question. I know this job is new. Maybe you're feeling overwhelmed. I want you to succeed. I've spent time training and giving you some tools. So what are you willing to do to learn your new responsibilities and be able to do it effectively every day? Joanna's take is you need to set the expectation that Arlene is to make progress and eventually soon do her job on her own. The company has determined that the tasks she's responsible for are necessary for the business. It's not on you to change those responsibilities. You don't have to lower any of those standards. So after another period of time, let's say 30 days or maybe less, if her job performance just really isn't improving at all, let your manager know, or whoever needs to know, which probably includes hr, let them know that this is the work you've done with Arlene over this period of time. Keep simple notes on what you've done to help her, what her progress is like each week or her lack of progress, dates of her training sessions, all that.

[B]

And on the training front, since just answering her questions over and over clearly is not working, Joanna said that she might need something else. Different visuals, maybe more organized notes in a binder, something like that. Although it sounds like you've already gone above and beyond, but there are a few more options. Also, maybe the training process needs to include you demonstrating a task for her first and then walking her through it with guidance and then having her do it by herself. That could maybe reinforce the learning.

[A]

One thing I did for my parents, I know that Arlene is not your mom and you gotta this is a corporate environment. But one thing I did was there's a program called Loom and it works in your web browser. And what you can do is screen record something using this and then share it really easily. So you might create a video where you log into her Outlook with her or for her and you're narrating this process the whole time the mic is on and it's go over here, and you click on this and you open this and you enter your username and password, which you know already, and then you're in your email and you can save those videos online or in a folder. And if she needs to do stuff on mobile, the function is also built into the iPhone. I think it's just called Screen Record. But you can save a folder of you doing these simple tasks and narrating them, and then she basically just needs to open those and she's off to the races. If she forgets what to do, if.

[B]

She can remember how to open Loom, that sounds like a great idea.

[A]

Well, she doesn't need to open Loom. She just needs to know where the folder with the videos is. I realize now, good luck teaching her.

[B]

What a folder is, but I hear you. I like it.

[A]

Save it to the desktop. There's a way. Honestly, though, you make a good point, Gabriel. If we're at the point where she's like, what's a folder? Where's the desktop? Now we're in a beginner mode with computers. This is a bigger problem. If she can't even remember basic computer usage, like, that's a bigger issue.

[B]

And if she simply can't do the fundamentals of this job, then Joanna said it just might not be the right fit. HR should be able to figure out if termination is the right step or if she really does need some type of accommodation. But Joanna's strong advice to you is don't go there at all without HR guidance.

[A]

One last idea. I would maybe pair Arlene with one or two colleagues who can answer her questions throughout the day. Keep her on track without you having to be on top of her. That's probably a little annoying for them, but it's better than you taking hours out of your day to stay on top of her and struggling to attend to your more important tasks. This is a tough situation. I understand the stakes are high because she's like, no, please don't fire me. I really need this job. That's an intense thing to feel responsible for. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's no fun. I'm sorry for her, too, but one way or the other, this has to get resolved. Either she gets better or she finds a better environment for her. It's sad, but there's a kind and thoughtful way to do it. Good luck. You know what else is demented? The amazing deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Sleep Me. 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If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals and if that doesn't work, you can email us jordanordanharbinger.com, we're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. And now for the recommendation of the week. So a little meathead recommendation for you here today. My recommendation is the Core Power Elite protein shake by Fairlife. They have variations of this, but the ones I like. By the way, this is the best protein shake in a bottle that I've ever had, hands down. 42 grams of protein. They have a 26 gram one. It tastes good. 42 is kind of unbeatable. Strawberry and chocolate and vanilla are the flavors they have. Each one is really good. What I really like about these is that nothing tastes too fake. It doesn't taste too sweet. A lot of times, protein. I notice they put in a flavoring that's just like strawberry but on steroids. Chocolate but like explosion vanilla but super vanilla. Y these are subtle and for a guy like me who where everything is too sweet and every flavor is too strong and every smell is too strong, this is just right. And it's also not thick. These aren't like ugh. You drink it and then you need something else to wash it down. It basically is kind of just like drinking milk because I believe it's mostly filtered milk with a little bit of flavoring and then they probably add some whey protein in there but it doesn't change the consistency really. It's just like very smooth, slightly thicker milk, but it's not smoothie thick and I really appreciate that. I actually had to buy them in bulk, but you can order them on Amazon and we're going to link to that in the show notes as well. Also, in case y' all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners and us about episodes, there's a lot going on there. Search for the Jordan Harbinger subreddit It's quite a positive place. I've actually banned a couple people recently because you know, how about one place on the Internet where people don't just like act like, how's that? And that I'd like to think is the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. So come and join us. It's quite fun. If you're a redditor. I really have a good time there. And there's a meme thread. It's a fun place to hang. Alright, next up.

[B]

Hey guys. For the last 18 years I've run a successful company in the healthcare field offering hearing aids and related products. I'm fortunate to have my son join the company and between the two of us, we provide amazing service to seniors in our community. We're caring, helpful and price competitive.

[A]

That's awesome. Gotta love it.

[B]

For years I've visited senior centers in our community to provide in home services and have tried really hard to develop relationships with the staff at the centers which make up over half of our revenue. In these centers, staff typically move on and management philosophies change over the years. For example, we used to be able to put up posters advertising our services, but some centers now don't want that. We used to provide educational presentations and rec coordinators now don't see the value in scheduling these talks. It's become difficult to let residents know that we're there to help. Meanwhile, other providers have been allowed to do these things in these centers, increasing Competition. There are many centers, so the demand is there and I know we provide a great service that is cheaper than our competitors. So my son and I just need to continue to be reliable and network better. But here's my problem. I think I'm a little too respectful. When I go to the staff at my centers. I say hi, but I don't persist or pursue them or the residents. We could connect with doctors, physiotherapists, counselors and home care specialists in our community. But again, I always feel like I don't want to bother people with an ask. I want to come across as a friendly, respectful colleague, but that doesn't always get noticed. I think I'm too respectful because I'm not having any success with my connections. When these rec coordinators say that they're not interested in a presentation, I say thank you for thinking of us and I understand when I should probably probe a little bit more or look for a different avenue, maybe ask for a different option to reach the resident or reach out to other health professionals to share contacts or create a kind of referral program. I'm just hesitant to make that first connection. I don't know whether it's best to start with an email or drop in and say hi. I always think that it would be too inconvenient or ineffective to stop in if they're busy or I just assume my email is just going to get ignored and that stops me. I'm also afraid of being pushy. For example, I have this gentleman who helps me with my tax free savings account and whenever he calls me I know he's going to ask me to contribute more each month or he's going to ask me to recommend people for him to contact and grow his business. It's uncomfortable to have to justify why I can't give more or won't share my friend's contacts with him. I don't want to be that type of person. We're now looking to increase our sales and need to make lasting long term connections that benefit both residents and us. I feel like the people I'm connecting with need to feel that there's a concrete benefit. It's important for people to look after their hearing. Cognitive decline can actually increase when the hearing isn't looked after. Unfortunately, people don't think about hearing aids in that way. People don't even get regular hearing tests. Maybe I just have to become comfortable with the idea that I might be known as that annoying hearing aid girl who comes around every couple of weeks and talks about how important it is to look after your ears. That actually doesn't sound so bad. No, it sounds like she'd be doing a great service.

[A]

Yeah, no kidding.

[B]

I'm doing your six minute networking course and I really appreciate all the work you and your team do to provide these resources, but I'm still stuck. Can you help with some networking suggestions? What's the difference between being pushy and being proactive? How can I communicate these benefits to the people I need to build relationships with? How do I get over this hurdle? Signed. Figuring out how to score when I need to generate more. But I'm struggling to build rapport and feel comfortable having the floor.

[A]

Excellent question. And something so many people struggle with. This is very normal. So I appreciate you reaching out. A lot of people feel this resistance you're coming up against and they just go, oh, well, I guess I'm just not one of those networking people or I tried this relationship stuff just doesn't work. You're willing to look at this in a new way and I really appreciate that. So a few thoughts. First off, I know that you're frustrated. I know there's this pressure to increase sales. I hear you. That competition is increasing. That's intense. I also think that's going to work in your favor because sometimes we need a little external pressure to force us to do things in a new way. I find it super interesting that you and your son are super helpful and friendly and price competitive. I love that you guys have a real connection with your customers and what they truly need. Having someone looking after their hearing, their overall cognitive well being. It's beautiful. I also find it interesting that other providers have been allowed to do these presentations and sales events in these centers and you're not. I don't know. That tells me they're getting through with these centers in a way that you are unable to do so far. Which is actually good news because it means that this is possible. So let's talk about the difference between being pushy and being proactive. Again, I think this is something everyone struggles with, especially people in sales where you have to get on busy people's radars, fight for their attention, get them to do something that they're not already doing. It's hard to pinpoint the exact moment you go from I want to advocate for myself to I'm a problem for this person. It's a spectrum, right? There's a middle ground where you're just a little pushy and a little proactive and you got to play in that territory. It also depends on who you're talking to. People's attention spans are short. Some people don't have the bandwidth for a passionate pitch. Other people, you can feel when there's room to push more and pin them down and carve out something new. What I can say for sure is this. We all need to risk being a little bit of a problem sometimes. I'm putting problem in air quotes now in order to get what we want. It's just kind of basic sales. If you're not willing to bear the tension of advocating for what you want, of convincing someone to change their mind and do something new, the healthy awkwardness of going, I totally hear you, I get it. But I know there's a better way that's going to serve your patients even better, and I can give it to you, and here's why. If you aren't willing to hang in that conversation, you're not going to change your results.

[B]

Yes. So true. When she said, maybe I just have to become comfortable with the idea that I might be known as that annoying hearing aid girl who comes around and talks about how important it is to look after your ears. Like, you heard me in the letter, I was like, yeah, be a little annoying. That's your job. But also, that's not annoying. If she does that in the right spirit, I think they're going to feel that she's coming around for a really good reason.

[A]

Agreed. So my strong advice to you is start experimenting with being a little pushier. And I would do this by degrees. Just tiptoe up to this. Go a little further each time. Teach yourself how to handle those moments. See what happens. Learn from your mistakes. Adjust your pitch. Keep doing it. It's kind of like exposure therapy. You need to risk being a little annoying in order to find out that you're not actually as annoying as you think. More importantly, I think you're going to find that if you are a little annoying, you can survive it, that nothing terrible is going to happen. This whole being respectful thing, it comes from a good place. You're being thoughtful. You don't want to be a nuisance. I get it. I actually really appreciate that. But also, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right? And part the art of sales is being just a little bit pushy without driving people away. And that art is unique to each person. You're going to have to develop your own style. Some people use humor. They make the person laugh. They keep things light, and somewhere in there, they make their pitch. Some people just call it out, okay, I'm going to be annoying for 30 seconds, but it's because I love you and I love your seniors and I love hearing aids. So hear me out. And some people stack the deck. They build up a ton of goodwill and social capital in advance so that when they make the pitch, it's not, I need you to do me this favor. It's, I've invested in you, now you invest in me. Let's keep the love fest going. Some people create such a good product or service, the sales part of it is a cinch. Although I think good sales is always part of it, which means being a little pushy. That's always kind of part of it, too. And by the way, part of the reason I'm being so direct with this advice is what you think is pushy or annoying. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'm pretty sure that is miscalibrated. You're so respectful that you'd have to go way out of your way to truly be a nuisance to someone. So a good exercise for you is to take a few steps into that annoying territory and just trust you're probably nowhere near being a true problem for the other person. If you see your results change over time, your barometer for what's actually annoying or disrespectful, that is going to start to change and recalibrate, and it's going to become easier for you to get this right.

[B]

Well said, Jordan. Totally agree. I find it interesting that she's so afraid of being like that financial guy who calls her asking her for money. I just think it's interesting that she's so afraid of being like him.

[A]

Yes. She knows what it's like to be on the other side, and she doesn't want to come across to people that way.

[B]

Two takeaways from that. First, if that guy is putting you in an awkward spot, then he's probably not the best at this stuff himself. He's not doing the things Jordan just described. So an interesting exercise for you might be to ask yourself, what is he doing that makes me uncomfortable? And what could he do that would make me want to talk to him and actually introduce him to my friends and get very specific about that and then reverse engineer those same techniques or styles or approaches for you and your son and give those a go.

[A]

Great idea. I do love that you said you don't want to be that type of person, and I get it. But the takeaway is, I mean, don't be that person.

[B]

Yeah, don't be that guy. It's not Avoid being a person who pitches her product at all. The other reason that this guy is interesting is you find it uncomfortable to say, I'm really sorry, but I can't give you more money right now, or I don't want to give you my friend's email addresses. But that discomfort might itself be informed by the same qualities that make you reluctant to promote your product and take up people's time because they're both forms of conflict. Telling someone no thank you is a form of conflict, and convincing someone to say yes to you is a form of conflict.

[A]

Healthy conflict, though.

[B]

Healthy conflict, Appropriate conflict, and necessary, obviously, for her job. So this goes back to the whole exposure therapy idea. If your product is great, if your prices are great, if you guys are great, which it really sounds like you are, then this largely comes down to your willingness to lean into this healthy conflict and temporarily take a position that another person might disagree with or just kind of have to deal with for a few seconds until they realize that you're actually there to provide them with something really useful, whether it's hosting these events at the centers or giving you some of their time or whatever. But here's the really great news. You guys have such a strong connection to your customer. You're in this business because as far as I can tell, you seem to genuinely care about people's well being. Again, that thing about how hearing and cognitive decline are so related, that really landed with me. And so I would say stay connected to that deeper purpose in your work and work that into these conversations. I think what bothers you about your financial guy is that he's basically asking you to do him a favor without having earned it or inspired you to want to help him out. But if he framed it as, hey, I love taking care of people, it's a joy to set you up for the future. If you have any friends who want the same peace of mind, I would love to chat with them too. No pressure, but I live for this stuff. I think you would probably feel differently about him. It's the same with these centers. If you call them or you write them and you say, look, I know you guys don't usually host events, or I know you guys don't know us yet, but we have an amazing product. It's cheaper than everyone else. We would love to take care of your seniors. And by the way, if they don't take care of their hearing, it's not just losing their hearing. They often decline cognitively. They miss out on life. And we love helping people live the fullest lives possible. That is the reason that we're in this business. And if you mean that, of course it's going to be a lot harder for these people to ignore you or to get frustrated with you, because what are they going to get annoyed with you for wanting to help elderly people avoid dementia? Like wanting them to be able to still talk with their grandkids? I don't think so.

[A]

Yeah, they'd feel like a holes for that. And if you really connect to your passion for that in these conversations, I agree. I think that's going to do wonders for her pitch. That might also help with some of the anxiety because then when you have to be pushy, you're not just being pushy so you can make more money. You're being pushy in service of this greater cause. And it takes the focus off of you and it makes it about this larger thing. As you can see, I love talking about relationships and networking. I even go around giving a whole talk about this at conferences and companies and stuff. And what you're describing, not wanting to bother people, feeling like you're inconvenient. This is one of the most common problems people talk to me about at these events. And I can almost guarantee you that those assumptions, they probably go back a long way. So many people get the message early on that their needs are inconvenient or too much, or that they need to be low maintenance in order to be okay. And you play that script out into adulthood and one of the ways it shows up is in this fear of taking up space with people, trying to convince strangers to give you a chance. One of the exercises I give during my talk is asking for help. Because it's all about giving help, building social capital. And then I say, hey, okay, now once you do this, I want you to ask somebody else for help with a need that you have. And a lot of people, they cringe and they're like, oh my gosh, how am I going to do that? Or they email me later. So one of the cheats that I have for this is instead of asking for help for something that you need, ask for help on behalf of someone else. So, like, maybe you're not the type to say, hey, neighborhood kid or neighborhood adult, can you come over and help me with my computer? I don't really know how to set up the WI fi in my new house, whatever it is. You might be like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to bother people. But if you had to ask for that same help for Your mother, you would probably do it in a heartbeat, right? You'd call some kid in the neighborhood, some adult, and be like, my mom, she's 80. She doesn't know how to do this. Would you mind plugging in her router for her and setting that up? And you'd probably find that much easier. So when you're making your pitch, remember you're not just like, how do I sell hearing aids? You're thinking, how do I get this person to understand that this is in service of their own residents? I'm trying to help them. I'm trying to let this person understand that I am offering help, not trying to take something in a way that's suave. There's some real vulnerability in that. But it's also a super powerful way to invite someone to invest in you, identify with you, get on board with your thing, and before you know it, there's goodwill flowing in both directions. But knowing how to ask for help, that is an art, too. It's an art and also a capacity. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that you give this a try and teach yourself that it's okay to be a little bit pushy. Don't wait until some magical time where you don't feel this conflict anymore. Just do it and keep doing it and keep learning and refining and see what happens. I have a feeling we're going to crack this and see some great results. Please write us, let us know how it goes, and good luck. Go back and check out the episodes with Mike Feldstein and Eric Cole and of course, our Skeptical Sunday on Black Friday. If you haven't heard those yet, show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram, Abriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So consult a legitimate professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne and Joanna Tate. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. Fame looks glamorous until you realize it costs the everyday freedoms that most of us take for granted. Even as a little kid watching Saturday Night Live and watching Eddie Murphy and Mike Myers and all these guys sneaking downstairs with my best friend Nick, and we would watch these things and then recite them for hours and reenact them. I'm so grateful that I had such a specific passion. I can't totally explain it, but it was something I had and was lucky enough to follow. I wanted so badly to be on Saturday Night Live or the Daily show, and I prepared relentlessly. It's why I moved to New York. It's why I started doing stand up comedy and started doing improv comedy. It's why I joined the community community. And I had this goal and then I got on the Daily show and I had never thought beyond that. My career wasn't handed to me, but it's just important to look back with gratitude at some of the things that fell into place. It was the realization that the work never ends that was a valuable lesson to learn on one of my first major gigs. Because while the Office happened and then the hangover, I still have to hustle. I gotta keep hustling. Movies are very intoxicating because it's so all consuming. It's very easy to detach from a lot of things in your life, whether they're difficult or good. Also, as an ADHD person, I thrive in hyperfocus. So when I get into that mindset, it's like I'm in go mode and it's thrilling. But there's a cost for more with Ed Helms on the hidden costs of fame and the chaos of his career. Check out episode 1146 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

[B]

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