The Jordan Harbinger Show: "Jimmy Wales | Building Trust the Wikipedia Way"
Episode 1251 • December 4, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode features Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, discussing how trust, collaboration, and open participation have enabled Wikipedia to thrive in a digital landscape filled with misinformation and declining institutional trust. Host Jordan Harbinger and Wales explore the philosophy, mechanics, and cultural rules behind Wikipedia’s ongoing reliability, as well as the broader implications of trust in organizations, media, and society.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Origin Story of Wikipedia
- Wales reflects on the transition from Nupedia (an expert-driven but slow process) to Wikipedia’s open, wiki-based collaboration:
- “We had more work done in about two weeks than we had in almost two years. It was like, okay, wow, this might work.” — Jimmy Wales [04:01]
- Wikipedia now covers 60–80 million articles in 300+ languages, with less than 10% in English [04:23].
- Translation goes both ways; many non-English articles provide unique, localized content [04:54].
2. Wikipedia as a Force for Good Online
- Wales and Harbinger discuss how Wikipedia represents the best of the Internet’s early ideals—global knowledge, open access, volunteerism, and community moderation:
- “It restores some of my faith in humanity.” — Jordan Harbinger [06:31]
- The project’s success challenges skepticism that large, public online projects must devolve into chaos.
3. How Wikipedia Handles Controversies and Edit Wars
- Wales outlines community mechanisms for managing “trolls, vandals, propagandists, corporations” and contentious topics:
- “Vandalism… We just revert it. You get one warning, at least one, and then you get blocked.” [17:35]
- For hot-button topics: “Go meta, go one level higher. Don’t take sides…just write about the conflict in a fair way, express what all the relevant sides say.” [17:44]
- “Our core policy is very, very strong…neutral point of view. Like, neutrality is so important to our being trusted that we have to maintain that.” [25:50]
- Not all disputes are easily resolved; identity, bias, relevance of personal details, and “WikiVoice” are constant negotiation points [20:48–22:45].
4. Transparency & Trust: The Pillars of Wikipedia (and Business)
- Wales emphasizes transparency and openness, even over perfection:
- “We shouldn’t think that the only way to get trust is by being perfect…One of the rules of trust is be transparent, especially when you have something to hide.” [27:16]
- Example: The handling of brand/institutional crises (Airbnb, Volkswagen, COVID-19 communications).
- Comparison to businesses: “Trust buys you a lot of space.” [68:31]
5. Assume Good Faith – A Wikipedia Rule for Life
- “Assume Good Faith” isn’t about being naïve, but starting with the presumption that newcomers or adversaries are acting with positive intentions:
- “It’s not a suicide pact… But…sort of that initial thing: they probably just need to be helped out a bit.” [48:07]
- This principle extends to families, workplaces, and society at large.
6. Neutrality and Media Bias
- Harbinger and Wales discuss accusations of Wikipedia’s “liberal/left-wing bias”:
- Wales: “Let’s take [complaints] seriously. Let’s have a look… Sometimes you look…maybe we could be a bit better.” [25:50, 77:46]
- Quality controls prevent unreliable or “clickbait farm” sources regardless of political lean [78:46–80:24].
- Wales: “The right deserves better than some of this crap that they’re following. Let’s have a real intellectual boom on the right.” [79:24]
- Wales advocates for all sides to contribute thoughtfully and respectfully, upholding neutrality as a core value [80:04].
7. Wikipedia’s Financial & Governance Structure
- Wikipedia is a charity with a ~$175M budget, mostly from small donors—Wales volunteers, not a billionaire [80:34–81:49].
- Donor independence protects editorial freedom from large donors or governments [81:49–82:27].
8. Handling Government Pressures & Global Access
- Wales details resisting censorship and pressure from governments (China, Turkey, attempted interference in US/others):
- “We don’t censor content to satisfy governments… Our donors would probably punish us quite hard.” [83:58–84:53]
- Wikipedia prioritizes user privacy and supports anonymous editing, noting its importance for editors in authoritarian countries [86:23–88:00].
- Only China consistently blocks Wikipedia [88:04, 88:22].
9. AI and the Challenges of Truth
- AI-generated content raises new concerns for misinformation:
- “AI hallucinates a lot...If you want to write about something obscure and you ask ChatGPT about it, the chances of hallucination are much higher.” [92:25]
- Wales sees opportunities for AI to help with non‑creative editorial tasks (e.g., replacing broken links), but not for generating factual content [94:08–95:09].
10. Leadership, Impact, and Doing the Work
- Final advice for aspiring changemakers:
- “Just get started… The next five years will go by no matter what you do…so you might as well do the thing.” [97:12]
- Taking risks and valuing failure as learning, rather than focusing on endless planning [98:50].
- Collaboration, transparency, and focusing on solving real problems are keys to impact [101:23].
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On ordinary people making a difference:
- “If you want to make an impact like Jimmy’s, you don’t have to found the next world encyclopedia. Just start by solving a real problem. Obsess over quality and collaborate like your idea depends on strangers showing up and doing the right thing—because it probably will.” — Jordan Harbinger [101:23]
- On trust and transparency:
- “We shouldn’t think that the only way to get to trust is by being perfect… Be transparent, especially when you have something to hide.” — Jimmy Wales [27:16]
- On policing bias:
- “If any sort of right-wing billionaires want to start funding some kind of really high quality, thoughtful, intellectual conservative media, I think that would be a good thing. The right deserves better than some of this crap that they’re following.” — Jimmy Wales [79:24]
- On ‘Assume Good Faith’:
- “If you treat people as if they are all up to no good, you’re gonna have a miserable life… But if you trust them, you’ll get so much more out of people, and they’ll like it so much more.” — Jimmy Wales [48:51, 53:42]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [04:01] — Launch of Wikipedia after Nupedia and the surprising speed of contribution
- [06:31] — Wikipedia as a rare example of Internet-based optimism and collaboration
- [17:35] — Mechanisms for controlling trolls, vandals, and edit wars on controversial topics
- [25:50] — Addressing bias, neutrality policy, and ongoing self-correction
- [27:16] — Importance of transparency in building and sustaining trust
- [48:04] — "Assume Good Faith" and its relevance beyond Wikipedia
- [68:31] — Taking a "trust inventory" in organizations and what it means for business relationships
- [77:46] — Conversations about perceived political bias in Wikipedia and how neutrality is approached
- [83:58] — Wikipedia’s stance against government censorship and defense of editorial independence
- [92:25] — Limits and risks of AI/LLMs for generating reliable information, and cautious optimism about AI tools for editorial support
- [97:12] — Wales’ advice on starting something impactful: “Just get started…the next five years will go by no matter what you do”
Episode Highlights & Tone
- The tone is warm, thoughtful, and laced with humor (e.g., “Wikipedia is one of the last places online where the wisdom of crowds consistently beats the stupidity of mobs” — Jordan Harbinger [01:21]).
- Wales is humble, pragmatic, and often self-deprecating; Harbinger balances skepticism and genuine admiration.
- The conversation is rich with real-world examples (Airbnb, COVID, Volkswagen, The Queen, Uber) and connects Wikipedia’s hard-won lessons to wider issues—media trust, management, AI.
- Discussions frequently circle back to the idea that Wikipedia’s rules for conflict management (“assume good faith,” “be transparent,” “go meta”), if applied elsewhere, could repair much of what’s broken online and off.
Actionable Takeaways
- In organizations and life, build systems (and cultures) where transparency and trust are default, not exceptions.
- Don’t shy from criticism—neutrality and trust require continuous, open self-scrutiny.
- Start projects by taking action, not by seeking permission or perfect plans.
- Be technologically aware but remain focused on verifiable sources and critical thinking, especially as AI-generated content becomes pervasive.
- Collaborate with humility: invite contributions, embrace corrections, and build things “with” people, not just “for” them.