The Jordan Harbinger Show, Ep. 1255:
"Abbie Maroño | Mastering Persuasion with Social Engineering"
Date: December 11, 2025
Main Theme & Purpose
In this episode, Jordan Harbinger delves into the psychology of persuasion, influence, and social engineering with Dr. Abbie Maroño—a renowned behavioral scientist who has trained elite agencies like the United States Secret Service. The conversation explores the boundaries between authentic influence and manipulation, breaks down how both con artists and ethical professionals use subtle tactics to affect decisions, and provides actionable strategies for building trust, creating rapport, and protecting against exploitation. The episode is rich in both real-world examples and deep psychological insight, highlighting how these techniques can be used for both good ("white hat") and ill ("black hat") ends.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Dr. Abbie Maroño’s Background and Credibility
- Dr. Maroño has trained 29 federal agencies (including the Secret Service, Homeland, FBI, NSA, CIA).
- Expertise: Nonverbal behavior, investigative interviewing, and social engineering frameworks.
- Recognized for contributions to forensic services; keynote at major polygraph/interviewing conferences.
- [03:44 – 06:49]
Quote:
"After I trained the Secret Service event, they provided me with an award for outstanding contribution to their forensic services." – Abbie Maroño [06:42]
2. Defining Social Engineering: Beyond the Bad Rap
- Social engineering is simply influencing or extracting information from people—used naturally by everyone, even children.
- The term has a negative connotation due to association with scams and con artists, but it’s fundamentally about influencing decisions.
- [08:44 – 10:31]
Quote:
"Kids use social engineering... If I ask mum, 'Hey mum, can I have a cookie?' Mum says no, so I go ask dad." – Abbie Maroño [09:00]
3. Influence vs. Manipulation
- The real difference is intention:
- Influence seeks mutual benefit or harmless outcomes.
- Manipulation disregards harm to the target—focuses on achieving one's goal at any cost.
- [10:31 – 11:28]
Quote:
"The difference between manipulation and influence is really intention... If your intention is to get someone to do something regardless of the consequences to them, that's manipulation." – Abbie Maroño [10:35]
4. How Con Artists & Radicalization Work
- Scammers and terrorists succeed by dehumanizing their targets—removing empathy through psychological distancing.
- Power and trauma can suppress empathy, making it easier to exploit others.
- Scam operations often recruit the traumatized, exploiting anger or “us vs. them” mentalities.
- [11:51 – 17:34]
Quote:
"As we obtain more power naturally, it can subdue empathy processes in the brain... as you become more powerful, that drive... reduces empathy." – Abbie Maroño [14:10]
5. White Hat vs. Black Hat Techniques
- Positive/pro-social engineering is about making people want to collaborate with you, not tricking or coercing.
- Long-term influence is based on trust, rapport-building, and giving people clear reasons to act, not short-term pressure.
- Example: Learning your partner’s preferences through clever prompting (Jordan’s "Guess where I'm taking you to eat" tactic).
- [19:05 – 20:00]
Quote:
"It's not about how do I get what I want; it's how do I make you want to give it to me." – Abbie Maroño [18:05]
6. Dealing with Negative Emotions & Conflict
- Effective influence requires shelving ego and negative emotional responses, even (especially) during criticism or confrontation.
- Assume positive intent; use empathy, vulnerability, and self-disclosure to diffuse tension and build lasting bonds.
- Use the "pants yourself" technique—admit your own limitations or vulnerability to reduce hostility and encourage cooperation.
- [24:39 – 29:21]
Notable Moment:
Jordan and Abbie agree that online conflicts are usually about something unrelated (hunger, tiredness), and responding with calm empathy frequently transforms adversaries into loyal supporters.
"When it comes to influence, putting your ego to the side is one of the best tactics. Because it gets in the way..." – Abbie Maroño [25:51]
7. Trust: Perception vs. Consistency
- Con artists leverage perceived trust (nonverbals, exclusivity, urgency) to shortcut the critical thinking process.
- Real, actionable trust is proven through consistency over time.
- Exclusivity (Bernie Madoff’s “friends only” investments) is powerful and can be used ethically to signal special value—but should always be rooted in honest, persistent behavior.
- [34:00 – 39:50]
Quote:
"Trust has two sides. We have the perception of being trustworthy, which is the non-verbals...and then we have being trustworthy, which is staying in the room." – Abbie Maroño [37:08]
8. Sales, Reputation, and the Long Game
- Dark tactics work short-term but ruin reputation; ethical, honest influence may be slower but wins in the end.
- Discrediting competitors, aggressive language, and urgency tricks all erode trust.
- Highlighting competitors’ genuine strengths and focusing on unique, positive differentiators enhances credibility.
- [42:06 – 48:42]
Quote:
"When you take that short road, the wins you get, you might get them. But ... that person that’s taken the long road, eventually they overtake you." – Abbie Maroño [46:15]
9. Why Manipulators Choose the Fast Track
- Manipulators use coercion because investment in genuine connection is “expensive”—takes more time and energy and requires actual value.
- Criminals are often stuck in survival mode, impulsivity, or short-term thinking—sometimes due to environment, trauma, or reinforced patterns.
- [48:52 – 57:22]
10. Accountability & Overcoming Victim Mindset
- Many people (even those with resources) succumb to “victim mentality”—excusing lack of progress with external circumstances.
- Accountability is essential for breaking survival loops and moving into long-term, ethical influence.
- [57:22 – 60:01]
Quote:
"Everybody has something that holds them back. You take accountability for it and figure out a way around it." – Abbie Maroño [59:18]
11. Practical Tactics: Self-Disclosure and Disney’s Social Engineering
- Mutual self-disclosure (sharing appropriately about yourself) paves the way for trust and deeper, more cooperative relationships.
- Disney creates buy-in and positive feeling through architecture, scents, seamless environments, and “backstage” logistics (underground tunnels) that remove negative visual cues (e.g., no trash collection visible, no out-of-character staff visible).
- [63:35 – 84:49]
Quote:
"Self-disclosure is instead of one person sharing, it's mutual self-disclosure ... The best way to get that information is to provide something to show, I'm not asking you to do something I wouldn't do." – Abbie Maroño [64:00]
"If I can create this environment that is conducive to feeling really good, I can make you spend more." – Abbie Maroño [81:25]
12. Staying Calm Under Pressure
- Whether testifying as an expert or in daily negotiations, remaining unflappable when attacked keeps your critical faculties online and wins respect.
- Opponents who become emotional are more likely to make mistakes; calm breeds clarity.
- [73:29 – 78:41]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- "Ultimatums are just threats disguised as choices." – Abbie Maroño [20:00]
- "Pants yourself means show your vulnerability... I'm struggling to provide you the services that you need or to communicate in the way that I think will be effective... Instead of saying, 'You're wrong,' pants yourself." – Abbie Maroño [27:07]
- Jordan’s Disneyland story: Staff using “magic” and environment to engineer positive emotion—even when things go awry, they flip the script instantly to maintain trust and experience.
- [82:51 – 84:49]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 03:44 – Dr. Abbie’s background and training of federal agencies
- 08:44 – What is social engineering?
- 10:31 – Influence vs. manipulation
- 11:51 – Why bad actors manipulate and how they dehumanize
- 17:34 – Prosocial vs. dark social engineering
- 19:05 – Real-life examples of white hat influence
- 24:39 – Defusing conflict, assuming positive intent
- 27:07 – “Pants yourself” technique
- 34:00 – Black hat tactics: selectivity, exclusivity, and trust
- 42:06 – Sales, scarcity, and the long-term benefits of honesty
- 48:52 – Why conmen take shortcuts
- 57:22 – Survival mindset and accountability
- 63:35 – Self-disclosure as a rapport-building tactic
- 81:25 – Disney’s environmental engineering for trust and spending
Tone & Style
Conversational, witty, and practical. Jordan interjects with real-life quips, clever analogies, and humility, while Abbie provides clear, applicable science and grounded advice. The rapport between interviewer and guest is lively, with frequent moments of laughter and storytelling.
Takeaways
- Ethical influence is more sustainable and rewarding than manipulation.
- Building trust requires openness, patience, and reciprocity.
- Checking your ego and shelving emotional reactions is crucial to persuasion.
- Our surroundings, words, and even self-disclosure can unconsciously engineer trust and rapport.
- Manipulation is quick, but the long road of honest influence leads to deeper relationships, reputation, and greater success.
Further Resources
- Dr. Abbie Maroño’s book: "The Upper Hand"
- Jordan’s free networking course: 6minutenetworking.com
For listeners interested in becoming more persuasive, defending against scams, or simply upgrading their relationship skills, this episode delivers science-backed tactics and memorable stories to use influence for good.