C (3:59)

Nope, never. And I'm super glad I never did.

A (4:03)

Really? I expected you to tell me you were, I don't know, pounding it daily for three years before the gym or something.

C (4:08)

I thought about it for its legal high purposes, but the cashier told me it was super addictive, so I passed the cashier.

A (4:16)

Okay. Is it super addictive?

C (4:18)

Well, that's complicated and we'll get into it later.

A (4:22)

Okay. Well, for the members of my audience who aren't fluent in weird legal ways to get high. What exactly is kratom?

C (4:29)

So kratom is a plant in the same family as the coffee plant. So you'd think it would be a stimulant, and you'd be sort of right. In lower doses, it acts as a mild stimulant. People get chatty, focused, sociable, energetic.

A (4:43)

But at higher doses.

C (4:45)

At higher doses, it does the opposite. It kind of acts like a legal, light opioid. Some people take it for focus, clarity, and energy, while other people take it to calm down, manage anxiety, or even to just get totally doped up.

A (4:59)

How doped up are we talking here? Because you can get this at any gas station in the country. It seems like, you know, what do we want people doing that on the road?

C (5:06)

You can get pretty dopey off of it, from what I've seen. I've heard it. Compared to a weak version of Vicodin, it can give you slurred speech, a floaty feeling, drowsiness, and you can even nod on it, I'm told.

A (5:20)

Nod? Is that. What does that mean?

C (5:22)

When you do opioids, one of the things that happens is that you're in this weird kind of asleep but not really state called the nod. You kind of drool on yourself, and then you wake up with a start, like. And then you repeat that process.

A (5:35)

Okay. You seem to know a lot about this, man. I don't know.

C (5:38)

Yeah, I've. I've been known to enjoy a few Vicodin pills, a dimmer switch, and an electric wizard record on my headphones, which. Okay, you know, by the way, is both why I was interested in Kratom and also why I didn't do it. The last thing I need to get into is an addictive form of Vicodin that I could get at a local gas station.

A (6:00)

Okay, so it is addictive.

C (6:02)

Again, complicated. And we will discuss it later. Chronic users have a sort of profile about them where they're existing in this state of permanent brain fog. Lower, no libido, constant fatigue, lack of motivation. Sort of like your neighborhood pothead, but worse. Now, with all that said, I also know that this is the drug that some opioid users talk about as being extreme. Extremely helpful for them. Just as a brief aside, there was a guy at my gym, an older guy, who was opioid addicted. He, you know, he did the back pain to opioid addiction pipeline that is tragically all too common. And he said that, you know, now he takes Kratom to manage his Chronic back pain and, you know, good for him. In the cases of people who are using more hardcore recreational opioids like fentanyl or what have you, I think training those in for something far less likely to kill them is probably a good thing. I think living people are preferable to dead people.

A (7:06)

So how does Kratom work? You said it was in the coffee family. I don't know anybody who's ever sat on the couch half asleep, drooling on themselves, vibing out to heavy metal or whatever it is on four cups of coffee.

C (7:17)

So Kratom is mostly made up of mitrigynine, but there's another alkaloid called 7 hydroxy mitrigynine, which is where it's getting most of its effects. These interact with two, possibly three receptors in the brain. First, the opioid receptors. But they don't activate the opioid receptors to full capacity, which is. This is why it causes drowsiness, dopiness, pain relief with limited respiratory depression, which is the main danger factor when you're talking about opioids, is respiratory depression. Next, there's adrenergic receptors. These are where it gets its stimulating properties. There's also some impact on the dopamine and serotonin receptors, but it's very poorly understood. So what's it doing there? We don't really know.

A (8:06)

Adrenergic receptor. These are complicated words, but they make sense if you sort of write them down. Right? Adrenergic adrenaline, maybe. I don't know. So why does it have such radically different, seemingly contradictory effects? Right. If I drink one cup of coffee, I'm not like really tired, and then I have two and then I'm really hyper and then I have three and I'm hallucinating. Right. That's just weird.

C (8:25)

Well, at lower doses it binds to the adrenergic receptors more. Once you start taking higher doses, it's going to bind to the opioid receptors more. There's actually a sweet spot where you can get it hitting both. Takes about half an hour to kick in. Lasts about four to six hours, maybe more if you took a lot. What's considered a lot more than 15 grams, I guess is what I read. Again, I've never done this, so this is a totally academic exercise for me.

A (8:53)

Right. No, that makes sense. So I'm guessing this drug wasn't actually invented 20 minutes ago and then instantly appears next to 5 hour energy at every gas station in America. This, this seems like one of those, like old wine in new bottles. Like this has been Used for thousands of years, and now we're going to distill it, make it way more dangerous and synthetic, and then put it at the gas station.

C (9:11)

That's about correct, yeah. It's been used in Thailand and Indonesia more or less since the beginning of time. Manual laborers have been known to chew on the leaves for stamina and mild euphoria. You can get it in powder, capsules, extracts, like gummies or tea. For what it's worth, Thailand banned it for decades and only recently have they legalized it for medicinal purposes only. It's also worth noting that these guys in Thailand were just chewing on leaves, whereas westerners are going to go get pills or extracts or other more concentrated forms of Kratom.

A (9:47)

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So it's basically the difference between coca leaf tea and powdered cocaine.

C (9:52)

That's a pretty good analogy. I've had both tea made from coca leaves and, you know, cocaine.

A (9:59)

Right. From the dentist or whatever legal place you could.

C (10:02)

Yeah, I was getting ocular surgery and they let me do a couple bumps off my key.

A (10:06)

Sure.

C (10:07)

Powder cocaine is not like a stronger form of coca leaf tea. It is a completely different beast.

A (10:15)

Yeah, that's a good point. Right. It's not like, Ben, this tea is. I don't remember this tea being like this. It's the difference between, wow, I'm not tired anymore, and I bet you that we could do this really dangerous thing that's life threatening and be totally fine.

C (10:30)

I don't think I could drink coca tea and stay up all night banging Jaeger shots, you know?

B (10:35)

Yeah.

A (10:35)

For example. That I had way worse examples in mind. Thank you for rescuing me. Look, I can't really compare coca leaf tea and actual cocaine because I've only done one of the two. So.

C (10:45)

Yeah, it's the tea.

A (10:46)

Right, sure.

C (10:47)

Yes. So back to Kratom before you and I start getting into all kinds of cocaine stories on the podcast. That's right. Kratom was banned in Thailand. It's back for medicinal purposes only here in the states. It's banned in some states, but it's mostly legal everywhere. You might see it labeled as not for human consumption, but this is a total wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing. Like, there's a lot of. If you ever buy like peptides and stuff, they're always like, this is for research labs. And it's like, yeah, dude, I'm doing an N equals one study on whether or not I'm going to get jacked off of this.

A (11:22)

Like, yeah, yeah, there's a guy who Moderated our subreddit for a while and I was like, oh, what other subs is he active in? It was called Research Chemicals. And I was like, oh, he must be a scientist. And it was kind of like, I asked him, I was like, what are you researching? And it was like, are you scientists? And. And it was like medical grade, I don't know, hallucinogenic stuff. It's. There should be double quotation marks around. Not for human consumption. That's my point. Like in smoke shops where a little sticker on the bong shelf says tobacco.

C (11:50)

Use only, I generally buy 3 foot water bogs so that I can enjoy my pipe tobacco in its smoothest form.

A (11:57)

Yes, that's right. Are there different kinds of kratom or is it all basically the same except for potency or purity or whatever other quality indicator?

C (12:06)

So supposedly there's red, green and white kratom, but it's unclear to me if this is just a marketing gimmick. There's no difference in terms of the plants they're harvesting. They supposedly can change the alkaloid profile of the plant to get different effects. So they emphasize, you know, the speedy qualities versus the dopey ones. In theory, this might be possible, but as this is a totally unregulated market, there's absolutely no way of verifying whether or not it even works. And if it does, whether the manufacturer is telling you the truth about the content of their wares.

A (12:42)

How big of a market is this? I'm always curious how much money there is in anything like this.

C (12:47)

It's a little over $2 billion a year in the United States. Now that sounds like a lot, but by comparison, legal weed is a $20 billion a year industry. So this is just an absolute puppy dog in terms of market share compared to something like weed. Wow. The total illegal drug market is estimated to be anywhere between a hundred billion and one hundred fifty billion every year. Some people claim to be using it therapeutically, but the question for me is always how much of this is cope? Like, are you just saying that you're using it to manage chronic pain or anxiety, but really you just enjoy getting high? And to circle back to the guy who spoke to me at the gym, like, nothing about him struck me as being deceptive about it. I think he's got chronic back pain and he doesn't want to do opioids for all the reasons people don't want to do opioids. I'm sure that he's not the only person on earth that this is true of. I'm equally certain that right now there's a guy taking a handful of Kratom gummies and saying it's for his back pain, when really he wants to drool on himself and stare at the ceiling for the next four hours. So are these people who say they're using it to manage anxiety or chronic pain, are they really using it for that or do they just like getting high and they have a ready made excuse for it?

A (14:06)

You know you're in trouble when your pharmacy also sells Slim Jims and vape juice. Speaking of dangerous addictions, hopefully the show is one of them. Because unlike gas station Kratom, the Jordan Harbinger show has proven to boost alertness, focus and smugness during water cooler debates. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Superpower Health. You know, every time we end up buying gifts people don't actually use. This year I just thought the best gift I could give my family is time. More time together. And that starts with actually taking care of yourself. And that's why I'm into this. Superpower Health. It's a new kind of health platform that helps you finally get real answers about what's going on inside your body and and what to do about it. One simple lab test checks over a hundred biomarkers. Hormones, metabolism, vitamins, minerals, thyroid, heart health, all the stuff that quietly drives how you feel day to day. Then they give you a full health report and a personalized action plan built by clinicians. Nutrition supplements, lifestyle steps, so you actually know what to do next. Superpower also tracks your health over a lifetime. Every test builds on the last one so you can watch your progress year after year. Superpower memberships are 199 bucks. And every gift membership comes in this really nice Superpower gift box. Normally 49 bucks. So it actually feels like a thoughtful present. I'm giving this to my friends this year because I want some of them around for a long time.

B (15:19)

Give your loved ones something that actually lasts. Better health and more time with you. Go to superpower.com gift to get a free $49 premium gift box with your gifted membership. After you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Please mention this podcast, the Jordan Harbinger show to support the show.

A (15:37)

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A (16:42)

Don't forget our newsletter. We Bit Wiser. We release it every Wednesday almost. It's a two minute read. It's very, very practical. You can apply the wisdom from our shows and episodes to your life. That's the idea. Something you can use right out of the box. It's a great companion to the show and you can sign up@jordanharbinger.com News now back to Skeptical Sunday. Sure. We talked about medication assisted treatment on the Rehab episode and I'm curious how Kratom compares with things like methadone, Suboxone, Naltrexone for those who missed that episode. You go back and listen to it, by the way. These are opioids that people use when they're quitting opioids. Basically they're prescribed to people so they don't use stronger and potentially more dangerous opioids like fentanyl or heroin.

C (17:25)

Well, as I told you on that episode, heroin doesn't really exist anymore. It's been completely chased off the market by fentanyl. So I'm gonna take these one by one. Methadone is highly regulated so you're gonna know exactly what you're getting. But you have to line up every day to get your dose. And I used to live across the street from a methadone clinic and was pretty routinely woken up by people screaming at each other in line at 5am from what I've seen, people who swap a fentanyl addiction or time, it was probably heroin for a methadone addiction. They don't really seem to be terribly happy people. Suboxone is usually paired with buprenorphine, which is an opioid Blocker. The overdose risk is way lower than with methadone. There's some addiction potential and some overdose potential, but it's much, much safer. Naltrexone is interesting because it blocks receptors. There's zero chance of an overdose. In fact, opioids won't even work if you're taking Naltrex. I believe Naltrex is what's in Narcan, which I am going to take two seconds to say I carry with me everywhere, and you should as well.

A (18:36)

I have Narcan in the house and I mean, nobody in my house uses drugs, but I live near a park where, I don't know, I'm just imagining some kid finds a baggie of stuff and I have Narcan at home and I can run home and get it.

C (18:49)

Or a drug addict overdoses. Yeah. Even a quote unquote guilty party. Like, I don't want them overdosing.

A (18:56)

That's true. I just don't see them doing it because I assume it's at night. I'm more. I'm usually I'm a daytime park kind of guy, not a hangout with the druggies at the park at night kind of guy. But, yeah, no, I'm with you. Like, I'm not one of those, like, hey, anybody who does drugs, if you die from it, you should just be dead. I get that. People don't start off that way. And it's a whole different podcast, I suppose. It's a whole rant. I know people disagree with you.

C (19:18)

Yeah, it's the rehab podcast.

B (19:19)

Right.

C (19:19)

Did all this on the rehab podcast. But, you know, that's right. Carry that thing on your. You. Because you never know when you're gonna need it and potentially save somebody's life. And, you know, maybe the next day they go back to being a drug addict, but maybe the next day they get clean.

A (19:32)

Yeah.

C (19:32)

The issue here, to get back to what we're talking about, which was naltrexone, the issue with that is that it's only for people who have detoxed, which, beyond being unpleasant, can also be dangerous. People die during detox depending on their level of addiction.

A (19:48)

I did not know that. Okay. If all these exist, why use Kratom?

C (19:51)

It's cheap. I think is one big reason opioid addicts aren't exactly known for having tons of disposable income. Unless they're one of these high functioning heroin addicts that we talked about on the rehab episode.

A (20:03)

That's right.

C (20:04)

Yeah. We do have those, you know, Kratom's unregulated, so it's easier to get, comes with zero strings attached, it helps with cravings, has a low overdose potential, moderate addiction potential, which again, we'll get into the weeds of a bit later. But some people have an inherent distrust of conventional medicine or just don't want to be in the system. Some people I'm sure avoid treatment because they don't want to get, you know, judgy looks or tones from the doctor that they seek treatment from. And whether or not a doctor's actually going to do that is irrelevant. They're avoiding treatment because they think that they're going to experience that and then they can just go and to the gas station and get Kratom. I mean, I just don't want people dying. So I would way rather see them using Kratom than Fentanyl or oxycontin or anything that comes with a very high overdose risk.

A (20:56)

What does the science actually say about Kratom? Have there been any serious studies on it?

C (21:00)

There have been some, but not a lot. There's a serious lack of long term, large scale, high quality studies on Kratom.

A (21:08)

What's wrong with the studies that do exist?

C (21:10)

Most of them rely very heavily on self reporting or animal studies. Which animal studies are kind of better than nothing, but not much or they just compile surveys. There's not a, a single blind or double blind placebo study that we have out there.

A (21:26)

What's in the few studies that we actually have then?

C (21:28)

They mostly say what we've said already, which is that it's sort of an opioid and there's some risk of addiction with long term abuse. The chances of overdose were established, but they're very slim, provided that you're only using Kratom.

A (21:41)

How slim is slim?

C (21:42)

So an FDA analysis of studies running from 2011 to 2017 found one death that was maybe kratom only.

A (21:51)

Okay.

C (21:51)

A CDC study that ran from 2016 to 2017 found 152 deaths from kratom. But seven of these 152 deaths were from Kratom only. So overdosing on Kratom is possible, but it's extremely rare. Compare this with the fentanyl overdose which you and the listeners are about to be as shocked as I was when I learned this Fentanyl overdose is the number one cause of death for Americans between the ages of 18 and 45.

A (22:27)

Wow. The leading cause of death between 18 and 45. How many people are ODing on fentanyl?

C (22:32)

Every year it's over 70,000 per year.

A (22:35)

Jesus, man. That's more Americans than died in the entirety of the Vietnam War. So basically, America is experiencing a Vietnam every year from fentanyl. I just had no idea so many people were overdosing on fentanyl every year. Holy crap. That's just actually insane. I think Vietnam was only quote, air quotes, only the actual number. 58,220 US servicemen died, some 275,000 to 310,000 Cambodians, 20,000 to 62,000 Laotians. OK. And then 250,000 people left what was called Indochina and perished at sea, which is horrifying to even think about. My God. I just wanted to clarify that so that people aren't like, you know, the only people that died in Vietnam were not just Americans. Because I know that's a. That's kind of a valid, a valid gripe.

C (23:20)

And to those people, like, I am also of the mindset that, like, it's kind of weird when we're like, it's only like 5,000 people that died in Iraq. It's like, yeah, if you don't count the million Iraqis that died.

A (23:32)

Right.

C (23:32)

It was a lot of people and it was a lot of people, people in Vietnam. So I'm glad that we did address that with regard to the fentanyl overdosing. Carry Narcan, get your gym, grocery store, coffee shop or whatever to have it in the first aid kit. And if you do drugs, test them. Because these are not all people who signed up to do fentanyl. These are people who got cocaine or molly. There was a band in Los Angeles, I want to say, like two years ago now, and I don't remember the name of the band, but it was three guys and they all died from fentanyl. And I believe it was from tainted supply. But I could be wrong about that.

A (24:12)

Right. So they thought they were going to do cocaine and they got fentanyl and diet or whatever.

C (24:15)

Yeah. And like, I think it's nuts that people do street drugs in the age of fentanyl, but if you do, test strips are really easy to come by and you should definitely get some if you're going to do drugs.

A (24:25)

I also agree. I've got friends who operate in the black market and stuff and like, I don't know, they do this stuff. And I was like, hey, how are you not worried about overdosing, you know, on this? And they're like, oh, I have. They've got like a whole laboratory worth of safety equipment in their house where they'll like, break it down. Test it, reconstitute it, because it's your life you're playing with. Also, it's bad for business to kill your customers. A lot of drug dealers don't care about that. But, like, you don't want to go to prison for murder, but the upscale.

C (24:52)

Guys that you know do, yeah, they're just businessmen fulfilling a market need, you know, dude, 100%.

A (25:00)

I mean, these are guys that are like, they don't want to kill their customers. They themselves. They don't want to die. They don't want to go to prison for murder. I'm not justifying their behavior. They're drug dealers.

B (25:09)

Right?

A (25:09)

These are people I know that sell, like, things that are illegal. But, yeah, there's a difference between, like you said, street drugs from somebody you don't know. I also think it's crazy. I just. The risk does not. The math doesn't work for me in the age of fentanyl, especially. Anyway, I'm aware this is a thing. It's very scary. Kids, I hate to say this, but don't do drugs. And if you do drugs, test them. Is that too Nancy Reagan? I don't know. All right, what else does the science tell us about Kratom?

C (25:34)

That is pretty much it, except for possible liver toxicity, seizures, and contamination. Because once again, this is an unregulated product. There's no one looking over people's shoulders, making sure they're selling pure Kratom without something else added in.

A (25:51)

Well, since we're talking about opioids, what is the balance between the risk of Kratom as a gateway drug for harder stuff like real opioids and the benefit of people using Kratom to get off of opioids? Does that make sense? Does that question make sense?

C (26:04)

Yeah. Yeah. You're asking, like, how many people is it getting onto opioids versus how many people is it getting off of opioids? In other words, who's, like, who's graduating from Kratom? We don't really have research on this. My gut says benefits largely outweigh the negatives because, as our last conversation about friends of yours engaged in certain activities indicated, grownups who want to get real drugs are going to get them. I'm sure out there there's some guy whose fent addiction started when he got a taste for Kratom. But it's such an outlier. I mean, I like coffee and energy drinks and, like, I'm not looking to get into meth. And I think that that analogy is really apt.

A (26:47)

Is there any data on people who are using Kratom to get off opioids.

C (26:51)

There are two surveys. In one study, neither one is terribly scientific. In 2017, Pain News Network did a survey of 6,000 kratom users and they found that 51% used it to manage chronic pain and 25% use it to stop or reduce opioid abuse.

A (27:12)

But this was self reported, so I'm guessing we just have to kind of take their word for it.

C (27:17)

Right. It's not scientific and they're using data only from people who actually return the survey, which is a quite a filter. Next we've got the American Kratom Association 2020 survey, which suffers from the same problems that the last one, as well as being put out by an industry organization. Their survey had about 8,000 respondents. 48% reported that they use Kratom to deal with opioid addiction or other substance abuse. But again, this is probably the least trustworthy set of information we have. That said, there's some correlation with the previous survey, so who knows? It's not scientific, but it's close enough to the other survey that maybe there's something there.

A (28:00)

Yeah, I can see why. None of that can really be taken with a great deal of faith. Wasn't there some industry report which, you know, again, big grain of salt here.

C (28:08)

There's the Henningfield report, which was commissioned by the American Kratom Association. I think it's maybe a little more trustworthy than the survey from the aka, but I couldn't say how much more. I mean, there's a third party involved. It's a report, not a survey, but as many grains of salt as you feel are necessary.

B (28:27)

Okay.

C (28:27)

Survey estimates that 1.7 million Americans use Kratom regularly and it found that a significant minority use Kratom for managing opioid dependence. It's a white paper, it's not peer reviewed and thus lacks a certain scientific rigor. A lot of people reported using Kratom for relief from opioid withdrawal on forums, including Reddit. This is all anecdotal, but I don't think it's fair to say that they're absolutely nothing there. Everyone's just saying that they're using it to manage an addiction because they want to get high. There's too many anecdotal reports. I have trouble believing that all these people are just making this up.

A (29:07)

What do you think of UFO sightings? A lot of people report those too.

C (29:10)

Well, that's the thing. The claims being made here aren't fantastical. You know, like if somebody. If tons of people report that they're being grabbed by aliens in the middle of the night and taken on hyperspace journeys, like, that's a fantastical claim. This is not really a fantastical claim. It's not a giant leap to say that a partial opioid antagonist could help people to get off of opioids. And you might say, well, they're still doing drugs, but who cares? They're doing drugs that are way less likely to kill them and perhaps allow them to function better. I mean, this. The anecdotal case of the guy at the gym. Like, I see this guy at the gym, like, five days a week. You know, he's up and he's around. He's doing stuff. He's not sitting in a dark room staring at his shoes while he drools. To me, that's a win for these people.

A (29:58)

Yeah, right. I think the difference in risk is significant, especially given that almost all the overdoses involve other drugs. But I'm curious what other drugs people are using with Kratom. If people. If it's people smoking weed and doing kratom and then ODing, obviously it's not the weed that's making them OD.

C (30:15)

I think really we just need more. More and better research into Kratom. And that's going to be hard coming because the CDC and the FDA are both pretty hostile towards that.

A (30:26)

I know there's been a lot of drama around the regulation of Kratom. So what's the story there?

C (30:30)

So in 2012, we first see the DEA list kratom as a drug of concern, which doesn't actually really mean anything specific. There's kind of a. I don't know if it's a spike, but there's a rising tide of poison control center calls about Kratom. But given the number of overdoses we have, even with multiple drug use, I mean, I've seen a video of a guy calling a poison control center because he thinks he's overdosing on weed. So somebody calling a poison control center doesn't really mean much of anything. I mean, I called up poison control center once because I accidentally made toxic chlorine gas.

A (31:07)

Okay, there's a story there. I would like to hear it.

C (31:11)

All right. So I lived off grid for several years, and I had a composting toilet for part of that time. And basically the way a composting toilet is set up is, you know, there's a big vat for number two and there's a little jug for number one, and they're all set up in a toilet like enclosure, but everything's separate and the number one jug gets kind of crusty.

A (31:33)

Oh, gross.

C (31:34)

It is so pro tip, don't clean that out with bleach because as it turns out, those are ammonia crystals and it will make. I guess it's not actually mustard gas though. King of the hill lied to me about this because I, King of the hill told me this was mustard gas and apparently it's not. But it's toxic chlorine gas, which is, you know, not really much better. So anyway, the reason I bring this up is I, I made this toxic gas, which is banned in warfare. And the operator was like, no, you're good. Just go to the hospital if you start coughing up blood. So people calling poison control doesn't mean anything except that they were scared enough to call a poison control center. It doesn't mean they overdosed. It doesn't mean anything. It means they were scared they called poison control. Around 2012, you start seeing more articles in the media about the dangers of Kratom.

A (32:23)

Ah, yes, okay. But there was no regulation, clearly, because I can still go down to the local gas station or smoke shop and pick up a bag or a pack of gummies or whatever it comes in.

C (32:33)

Right. So the big push for regulation comes in August 2016, when the DEA announced an emergency Schedule 1 ban on kratom, which put it into the same category as heroin and lsd. This category also includes weed. The scheduling system in the United States is absolutely insane.

A (32:54)

Yeah, wow.

C (32:55)

Yeah, these are, you know, none of these things are really like each other, but. So by October, the emergency ban was withdrawn in the face of public outcry. There were over 140,000 signatures on a petition to the White House. Some scientists and legislators were pushing back on this ban.

A (33:14)

Now, what comes next on that timeline? Because I know this isn't the end of the federal government moving against Kratom and they're always trying to ban this stuff. It is. I mean, kids do it and it's sold so freely, you know, they're always trying to go after this stuff.

C (33:27)

I'm curious, honestly, man, how. How many kids get it?

A (33:30)

You might be right. It might be more of a boogeyman kind of thing. Like, oh, it's really hard to solve the real drug problem. So let's go after the pretend one at gas stations.

C (33:39)

Well, the way I always put this is like, when you were 14 years old, was it easier to get booze or weed?

A (33:44)

Yeah, dude, honestly, it was probably easier.

C (33:47)

To get weed it was easier to get weed because, like, you know, weed, all you need is, oh, my friend has a scummy older brother who doesn't mind selling weed to teenagers.

A (33:56)

Right?

C (33:56)

And you go into a liquor store, they're like, get out of here.

A (33:59)

Right? Yeah. Because they don't want to lose their legal, profitable business. Right? But the weed dealer, the older brother's like, I'm already a drug dealer. Whatever. Yeah.

C (34:06)

I don't know how many kids are doing Kratom. And also just weird. Like, what kid is like, let me get some crate? I mean, I'm sure it happens, but I don't think it's this, you know, pressing public concern where kids are like, you know, getting hooked on Kratom. The next stop on the line is when the FDA starts to crack down on Kratom. This is the FDA this time, not the dea. They issue import alerts, see, shipments warn that it might be contaminated with salmonella. The FDA commissioner, Scott Gottlieb, calls Kratom an opioid, which kind of. And warns that it has no approved medical use. The FDA also starts releasing death reports, but as we established, most of these are from the use of multiple drugs. So it's kind of dishonest twice because, yeah, Kratom is like, it's sort of an opioid, but it's also sort of not. It doesn't depress breathing except in super high doses, for example. And that is the thing that makes opioids dangerous. Kratom is only partially an opioid. It's very transparent fear mongering on the part of the fda. And I would say that the second dishonesty is. Is that it, you know, it has no approved medical use, but approved is doing a. A fair bit of heavy lifting there because we have enough anecdotal reports of it helping with pain management and helping with opioid withdrawal symptoms that maybe we should look into this and see where kind of what role Kratom might play.

A (35:33)

Kratom promises focus, relaxation and enlightenment, all depending on the dose. Kind of like this podcast. Take one episode, you're curious. Take take three in a row. You're telling strangers about government psyops in line at Starbucks. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by Jasper. Most of us obsess over what we eat, what we drink, but almost never think about the thing we consume the most. Air. You take about 20,000 breaths a day, and indoor air can be two to five times more polluted than what's outside. Dust allergens wildfire smoke, VOCs from furniture, off gassing. You're just breathing all that in, especially if you got kids at home. Clean air is not a luxury. It is literally one of the easiest ways to feel better day to day. And that's why I'm big on Jasper. My friend Mike built it after doing some home restorations after wildfires. I know people are like, you're not friends with all these people who sponsor the show. Why do you think they sponsor the show? They know me, they like me, they trust me. I don't know if they like me. They trust me and they know me. How's that? So anyway, Mike knows what bad air looks like. He's realized that purifiers most people buy are just not the same grade as commercial systems professionals rely on. So he made Jasper, which is industrial level performance, but quiet, efficient and actually looks kind of nice, like something you get at the Apple store. What I love is how it reacts. You cook, it, ramps up, allergens spike and it kicks in. Wildfire smoke drifts in town and under your door. It's on before you even smell it. My whole family breathes a little easier with these things running. Last year they sold out completely. Inventory, of course, running low again for the holidays. So if you've been thinking about cleaner air, now's the time.

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C (38:36)

Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. Like, I, when I was like 12 years old, I found out that, like, marijuana was not this thing that was going to turn you into a junkie and kill you. So I was like, cool, I can, I can just smoke pot all the time and there's nothing wrong with it. And obviously that's not true either. But I don't ever think there's an upside to exaggerating the dangers of something. I, I, I don't see any upside to it. I always see downside. Whereas, you know, if you give people, pun intended, the straight dope on this stuff, then they can make a, a rational decision about it without having to triangulate how much they've been lied to. The other thing is, when you try to ban something that's become a place for a lot of people to make money, those people making money are going to push back on any kind of regulation. So around this time, the American Kratom association is founded, becomes kind of a lightning rod for all opposition to regulations on Kratom, to any regulations on Kratom. And eventually it's banned in Alabama, Arkansas, Indiana, Rhode Island, Vermont and Wisconsin. But it's perfectly legal most other places. Some cities have banned it. And in some places, you know, you have to do this song and dance where you pretend like you're going for my dog or whatever. To me, it's kind of stupid, but I'm not the one making the laws.

A (39:57)

If it's not banned, how precisely is it regulated, if at all?

C (40:01)

The thing with supplements in general is they're pretty unregulated. The key law here is the Dietary Supplement Health and Education act of 1994. And what that says, in a nutshell, is that supplements are food and not drugs. So you don't need FDA approval before you sell them any more than you need FDA approval. Every time you come up with a new way to mix up ground beef and cheese at the Taco Bell. There's also restrictions on how supplements can be marketed. You can't market them as any kind of treatment for an illness, for example.

A (40:37)

Right, okay, I remember. Yeah. That's why it's. This is not designed to treat or cure any disease. Right. But they always find a way to walk right up to that line, don't they? I mean, you can't say St. John's wort cures depression, which is a very specific, limited, quantifiable claim about a specific disorder. But they always say, like, it elevates mood, which is more subjective and doesn't directly reference major depressive disorder. And it could be like this elevates mood because placebo effect elevates mood. When we tell you that this pill elevates mood, it could be full of air. And it will still elevate mood if we tell you statistically that it does. Because that's how placebo effect works.

C (41:12)

Right. It's happy air. Take the happy air.

A (41:14)

Yeah, Happy air, to be specific. Exactly.

C (41:16)

The FDA can't just ban supplements without a reason. It has to wait until it receives reports of harm or suspicion that something is being mislabeled or is adulterated or dangerous. And even then, the burden of proof is on the government, not the manufacturer. Which isn't terribly surprising as this is the bedrock of Anglo Saxon jurisprudence, since forever, you know, you have to prove your accusation against somebody rather than them proving their innocence. There's not really any kind of potency, purity, or consistency standards with supplements, which is why you shouldn't just buy any random brand of supplement in general, not just Kratom.

A (41:54)

Another problem with Kratom, I'd suspect, is the naturalism fallacy or the appeal to nature. The idea that just because something is natural, that makes it somehow safe or safer than synthetic alternatives, which is, you know, not true at all. There are tons of natural things that can harm or kill you, including water, cyanide, et cetera.

C (42:12)

Yeah. The current legal status of Kratom is in this weird gray area where the FDA hasn't approved it at all for anything, but they also haven't banned it. So you can get away with quite a lot by just slapping a sticker that says not for human consumption on the packaging and then pretending like your company has done everything required to make clear that this is not something any government body has said is okay for people to consume.

A (42:37)

How is this Process different for prescription drugs. What bar are they meeting that Kratom doesn't?

C (42:44)

So America, contrary to popular belief, actually has a pretty high bar to clear for drugs entering the market. You don't just have to prove that drugs are safe. You also have to prove that they're effective for the specific disorder or illness that you're marketing them for.

A (42:58)

Okay, well, that's good news. At the top of the show, I asked you if Kratom is addictive and you kind of said, you know, like, shut up, Jordan, we'll talk about it later. I want to hold your feet to the fire because inquiring minds want to know, you know, is this crap addictive or what?

C (43:10)

First of all, to get a Kratom habit, you're going to have to take large amounts daily, about 10 grams a day or more. It's not clear how long you'd have to do this before you're addicted. It also matters what kind you're using. Whole leaf versus extract. We don't have scientific data, but self reported withdrawal symptoms are pretty much what you'd expect. Anxiety, depression or dysphoria, nausea and vomiting, muscle aches, tremors or restless legs, insomnia and fatigue, sweating and chills, irritability and agitation. These aren't just general withdrawal symptoms. They're very similar to withdrawal from opioids, particularly the leg spasms. I'm sure everybody listening to this knows the euphemism kicking the habit. And that actually comes from. Do you kick a lot when you're getting rid of a dope addiction?

A (44:03)

Really?

C (44:03)

Yeah, your leg spasm like crazy. One thing I didn't see on here, that's also, that's weird, that is a total opioid thing, is diarrhea. I didn't see diarrhea on there if I missed it in my travels, you know, apologies, but like opioids give you unreal constipation and when you stop taking them, it all just kind of comes out. So another reason to not get addicted to opioids, kids, is you're going to be, you know, kicking the air and shitting yourself for like a week straight or something. Withdrawal symptoms from kratom start 12 to 24 hours after the last dose, peak about three days in, and they can last a week or more.

A (44:43)

Yikes. Okay, so how does it compare to withdrawing from other more serious opioids? Because if it's the same kind of symptoms, I'm hoping they're at least less severe.

C (44:51)

It's described as a mini opioid withdrawal or like Quitting coffee with flu, like, symptoms.

A (44:57)

So you're tired, cranky, and have explosive diarrhea.

C (45:00)

Well, we didn't do see diarrhea.

A (45:02)

Oh, you didn't see diarrhea?

C (45:03)

I would be very surprised if diarrhea was not included because, like, yeah, like, diarrhea is a total thing with opioid withdrawals. Yeah. Again, it's the my go to for this whole episode is we just don't have much or any scientific data about this. We have videos on YouTube where people talk about it. We have Reddit users posting about their experience. We don't have good studies. And it's kind of like, why not? Why is nobody studying this? One of the problems we also know is that guys who have Kratom withdrawals and they go see a doctor, their doctors don't take them very seriously. You know, it's like, if you're like, oh, I'm addicted to weed and I want to quit weed. And, you know, like, you're not addicted to weed. And it's like, well, maybe you are. Maybe you need a little medical support to get you off it. Same with Kratom. Like, doctors just don't really take it seriously. There just aren't support systems in place for people who want to kick Kratom. Chances are you're probably just going to have to tough it out.

A (46:00)

I'd imagine that part of this goes back to a lack of research. Most doctors just have no idea what Kratom is, let alone deal with withdrawals from this weird gas station drug that they've never even heard of. People might have seen nightmarish news stories about Kratom. I know I saw a couple, but nothing you're telling me is really affirming. These stories is anything but hype.

C (46:18)

Yeah, some writers will compare to bath salts. And there's always the old standby that we kind of touched on of freaking out because some teenager took a little bit of Kratom on top of a handful of pills and he OD'd from the pills and had Kratom in his system. And like, any death is a tragedy, especially when it's someone who's young. But at the same time, I think we really need some perspective on the relative danger and harm of Kratom. As far as kratom being like, other legal highs like bath salts or Spice or K2, I am totally unaware of any stories about people freaking out and eating someone's face because they got too high on Kratom, which, you know, anyone over the age of 30 probably remembers that guy in Florida.

A (47:03)

Yep.

C (47:03)

People just mostly seem to sit around and they have a little mini nod on a high dose or on a lower dose they get energetic and gregarious. People aren't holding up liquor stores to get Kratom because you can get, you know, a kilo of the highest quality kratom on planet Earth for about a hundred bucks from a website. And if you're just desperate for a fix, you can get an ounce of gas station quality stuff for between 15 and 30 bucks.

A (47:30)

Right. It sounds like what you get with a lot of these quasi legal supplements and gray market highs. You got users swearing up and down. There's no downside. It solves all kinds of problems. Then you got the media, the government, and people who perennially freak out about everything saying it's the downfall of society and it's corrupting the youth and the truth is probably just somewhere in the middle.

C (47:51)

Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. Some people are probably getting real benefits out of it, even if all they're doing is switching from a high that's very likely to kill them on a long enough timeline to something that's very unlikely to kill them even if they use it for years or decades.

A (48:07)

Right. It's not risk free, but it's also not fentanyl.

C (48:10)

Correct. I think the only real danger we're talking about here are people who pick up Kratom and they think, oh, it's this totally risk free way of getting high. And then they find out the hard way that it's at least can be habit forming. And you know, even if it's just going through a coffee withdrawal. Coffee sucks.

A (48:29)

Yeah, I wouldn't know. Remember a few skeptical Sundays ago where we learned how horrible the conditions are for people who farm and ship and pack our coffee? And I'll get all those emails like, oh my gosh, this is awful. I'm quitting coffee. I am basically never, I'm here to say I'm never quitting, no matter how many slaves. Slaves have to labor to make it. I just, I can't do it. Take my own advice from Skeptical Sunday. No thank you. I can't. I don't want to. I know, it's a bummer.

C (48:52)

Yeah, it's. I have quit coffee before and it's not a good time.

A (48:55)

I've done it a hundred times. Yeah, I can quit whenever I want. I've done it on dress. I just buy fair trade. It's worth paying more for me to have guilt free coffee. But you know what? Not quitting.

C (49:02)

Yeah, I mean, I said this before, but in general it's just dangerous to overplay or downplay the risk of drugs. Whether they're, you know, stuff I can get at a gas station or stuff I can get off Dark web or whatever it is. If you overplay the dangers, people get wise that they're being misled and they kind of just hand wave all even reasonable warnings as misinformation. If you underplay the risks, people get this false sense of security. And I think that's the real risk with Kratom is people are not getting a realistic assessment of the risks. I think they're mostly just hearing about it as this cheap and easy way to get high. They don't do due diligence because kind of who does if they're looking to get high? There's actual risks.

A (49:48)

It seems like the main thing is that there needs to be more research into the world of Kratom. It's kind of a bummer to just not have enough data, no hard research really, to talk about this and have to go based on anecdotes and forum posts and like DEA warnings based on whatever just to get any kind of idea about what's going on with Kratom.

C (50:07)

Yeah, sorry man, I just, I was not willing to get a Kratom addiction for what you pay me to do these.

A (50:12)

Ah, you weenie.

C (50:13)

Guilty. But if I may for a second, I do think it's kind of scandalous that we're maybe sitting on this potentially powerful tool for either helping people kick opioids or alternately replacing super dangerous opioids with fairly harmless ones. I mean, I, I know there's been this kind of like knee jerk reaction in the medical field where like, they're not giving people opioids now who maybe need them. And maybe Kratom can fill that gap. I'm not saying it can. I'm saying maybe it can. And we don't know because the research just isn't being done in any serious way. We just have these surveys from, you know, Kratom salesmen and it's like, can we get some real research on this, please?

A (51:01)

We've got to get these drug scientists on the ball as far as opioid alternatives. People should always be wary of something that's touted as a miracle cure. I also know from experience that anything advertised as a legal high usually sucks compared to actual drugs.

C (51:17)

If I can say that Jordan Harbinger.

A (51:19)

Says, do real drugs, kids, I disavow that statement. I definitely meant something else. What? That something else is I will not be saying. But yeah, look, the main thing is that whether you're kratom curious or kratom critical, now you have more tools to make a smarter decision about it. I'd say there's enough info for me to decide to skip this one altogether. Thanks Nick for the straight dope on Kratom. Thanks everybody for listening. Topic Suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to jordan@jordanharbinger.com Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm ordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn in this show. It's created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Also, we of course try to get these as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it's fact checked, so consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

C (52:42)

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A (52:49)

Own special small Fries drink and Four Piece McNuggets.

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