The Jordan Harbinger Show: Skeptical Sunday — Kratom

Episode 1257 | December 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Skeptical Sunday on The Jordan Harbinger Show takes a deep dive into Kratom—the controversial herbal supplement touted as everything from a miracle painkiller, an addiction aid, to a dangerous, addictive opioid analog. Host Jordan Harbinger and guest researcher Nick Pell tackle common myths and scientific realities, asking: What is kratom? Why is it so popular among very different groups of people? Is it safe, regulated, or effective? Why does it occupy such a legal gray area in the U.S.?
The discussion is candid, skeptical, and full of expert research, making it the perfect primer for anyone curious or confused about this increasingly ubiquitous “gas station drug.”

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Kratom? Who Uses It, and Why?

• Kratom is a plant in the coffee family, historically used in southeast Asia (mainly Thailand and Indonesia) as a natural stimulant and for mild euphoria (09:11).
• People use kratom for a range of purposes—energy/focus (as a stimulant at low doses), relaxation or mild euphoria (as a sedative at higher doses), managing opioid withdrawal, anxiety, or chronic pain (03:35–04:59).
• Jordan notes the wide range of users: single mothers needing focus, recovering opioid addicts using it as a substitute, people seeking a legal high, and gym-goers using it for energy (03:35).

"They're all using the same thing with wildly different effects depending on the dose. It's called Kratom."
—Jordan (03:35)

2. How Does Kratom Affect the Brain and Body?

• Dose matters drastically:
  • Low doses: Mild stimulant (chatty, focused, sociable, energetic) (04:29)
  • High doses: Light opioid-like sedative (slurred speech, drowsiness, “the nod”) (04:45–05:22)
• Active chemicals: Mitragynine and 7-hydroxy-mitragynine, which bind to opioid, adrenergic, and possibly dopamine/serotonin receptors (07:17).
• Effect “switches” at higher doses from stimulant to sedative.
• Lasts 4–6 hours; takes around 30 minutes to kick in (08:25).

3. Cultural and Historical Context

• Used for centuries in Southeast Asia by manual laborers—chewed for stamina and mild happiness.
• Western use involves more concentrated powders and extracts (09:11–09:47).
• Previously banned in Thailand; recently legalized medically (09:47).

4. Legality and Regulation: Why Is Kratom in a Gray Area?

• U.S. Status: Legal in most states; banned in 6 states and some cities (39:57).
• Federal attempts to ban:
  • 2016 DEA tried an emergency Schedule I ban (heroin/LSD-level); public outcry reversed the decision (32:33–32:54).
  • Ongoing push-pull between FDA/DEA and kratom advocates (American Kratom Association) (32:33–33:14).
• Labeling games: Often sold "not for human consumption" (11:22–12:06), a legal loophole familiar in the supplement industry.
• Supplements law: Under DSHEA (1994), Kratom is treated as a food/supplement, not a drug—so no FDA approval required unless proved harmful (40:01–41:54).

"You can get away with quite a lot by just slapping a sticker that says not for human consumption...and then pretending like your company has done everything required."
—Nick (42:12)

5. Is Kratom Addictive? What Are the Risks?

• Addiction potential: More likely with daily high-dose use (10+ grams daily) (43:10).
• Withdrawal symptoms are similar to mild opioid withdrawal: anxiety, depression, muscle aches, tremors, irritability, insomnia, sweating, possible diarrhea ("kicking the habit") (43:10–44:43).
• Withdrawal is milder and less dangerous than "serious" opioids (described as a “mini opioid withdrawal” or “flu-like coffee withdrawal,” 44:51–44:57).
• Chronic users may experience brain fog, low libido, constant fatigue, low motivation (06:02).

6. Is Kratom a Safer Opioid Alternative?

• Kratom may help some opioid users manage withdrawal or addiction, with lower risk: "living people are preferable to dead people." (06:00)
• Survey data: Two main (self-reported) surveys find 25–48% of users cite using kratom to reduce opioid use or cope with withdrawal (26:51–28:00).
• “Overdosing on kratom is possible, but extremely rare.” Only 7 of 152 reported deaths solely from kratom (21:51–22:27).

7. How Does Kratom Compare to Medical Treatments for Opioid Addiction?

• Alternatives include methadone (regulated, but daily clinic visits), Suboxone (lower risk), Naltrexone (blocks effect, zero overdose risk).
• Kratom: Unregulated, cheap, easy to get, less risk of deadly overdose, but moderate addiction risk (17:25–20:56).
• Many users distrust mainstream medical systems or avoid the stigma/judgment in addiction treatment (20:04).

8. Are There Other Health Risks?

• Limited data, but some cases of liver toxicity, seizures, contamination (especially since products are unregulated, 25:34).
• Major risk is in unregulated supplements: purity, potency, and adulteration can be highly variable.

9. Media and Regulatory Hysteria: Fact vs. Hype

• Media/government often exaggerate dangers, lumping kratom in with “bath salts” and synthetic highs, but severe incidents are rare (46:18–47:03).
• Both sides (users who claim it’s 100% harmless, officials who claim it’s deadly) may overstate their cases—truth is somewhere in the middle (47:30–47:51).

10. Anecdotes and Research Gaps

• Lots of self-reporting online, scant high-quality research or controlled trials (21:00–21:26).
• Users frustrated by lack of support and scientific clarity; doctors often dismiss kratom withdrawal or problems (45:03–46:00).
• Major call: “We just need more research!” (50:07–51:01)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On regulation:

  "The scheduling system in the United States is absolutely insane."
  —Nick (32:54)

• On Kratom’s addictiveness:

  "Withdrawal symptoms are pretty much what you'd expect...Very similar to withdrawal from opioids, particularly the leg spasms. The euphemism 'kicking the habit' actually comes from...leg spasms."
  —Nick (43:10–44:03)

• On overplayed danger:

  "I don't ever think there's an upside to exaggerating the dangers of something. I always see downside."
  —Nick (38:36)

• On surveys:

  "It's not scientific, but it's close enough to the other survey that maybe there's something there."
  —Nick (27:17)

• On risk:

  "It's not risk free, but it's not fentanyl."
  —Nick (48:07)

• On user benefit:

  "Some people are probably getting real benefits out of it, even if all they're doing is switching from a high that's very likely to kill them...to something that's very unlikely to kill them."
  —Nick (47:51)

• On the naturalist fallacy:

  "There are tons of natural things that can harm or kill you, including water, cyanide, et cetera."
  —Nick (42:12)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening narrative on who uses kratom & why: 03:35–04:59
• How kratom works (biology): 07:17–08:53
• Kratom’s origins and use in Thailand: 09:11–09:47
• Legal status & regulatory history: 32:33–33:14, 39:57–40:37
• Is kratom addictive & withdrawal: 43:10–44:43
• Comparison with opioid maintenance drugs: 17:25–20:56
• Science and overdose data: 21:00–22:27
• Surveys on user motivation: 26:51–28:00
• Media versus reality: 46:18–47:51
• Lack of research & scientific frustration: 50:07–51:01

Summary Takeaways

• Kratom is both a stimulant and an opioid-like substance, depending on dose.
• Legal status is convoluted; available in most U.S. states, but largely unregulated.
• Risks: Low but real addiction potential, rare overdoses (especially compared to opioids), withdrawal is unpleasant but less severe than “hard” opioids.
• Benefits: May help some people manage opioid withdrawal safely; easier to access for those unwilling/unable to seek traditional medical treatment.
• Biggest Issue: Lack of quality research, making both risks and benefits difficult to quantify beyond anecdotal evidence.
• Media & government may sensationalize risks, while advocates may understate them; balance and further study are needed.

Final Thoughts

Jordan and Nick agree: More high-quality, unbiased research on Kratom is essential. Until then, consumers should approach it with cautious skepticism—neither as a miracle cure nor a uniquely dangerous poison.

For more episodes like this, check out the Skeptical Sunday archive or visit the episode starter packs at jordanharbinger.com/start.