B (2:46)

That's right, Jordan. So the old saying is there are two sides to every story. But as we've seen on Skeptical Sunday, oftentimes there are more than two sides. So in a sense, perhaps a sixth sense, this is going to be an easier episode to understand because there are only two sides. Either near death experiences are something that happens in our brain, or they're not. There's something more, something supernatural.

A (3:09)

Well, if it's not all in the brain, then near death experiences are evidence for the most extraordinary discovery of all time. So it seems like a good time to ask, what is a near death experience in the first place?

B (3:22)

Okay, so a near death experience, or nde, that is actually a phenomenon that's been around for a really long time. Basically, it's an intense experience that somebody has at the time of a life threatening situation, which means it's reasonable to assume people have experiences like this at the actual time of death as well.

A (3:41)

So the problem is we don't get Yelp reviews from people who actually die, I think.

B (3:45)

Right, right, exactly. We only hear the accounts of people who don't die. The people who are near death.

A (3:53)

Yes. Okay. Hence the name. And there are a lot of commonalities in the recounting of these experiences. Right. That's. I think that's what makes them so interesting, is how similar they are. If one person said, hey, there's a tunnel of light, and the other person's like, hey, I dove to the bottom of a river, you'd be like, ah, people hallucinate when they do this. I'm still in that camp. But the fact that everyone says kind of the same thing, that's really interesting.

B (4:15)

Well, that is super interesting. And that is what makes people think that they are evidence of something more. But the fact of the matter is that they're not evidence all the same. And we're going to get into that. But there are some commonalities. People describe a sense of detachment from the body.

A (4:28)

So an out of body experience. So here's the thing, Rogiglio. You know what lucid dreaming is, right?

B (4:34)

Yeah. You used to be a lucid dreamer, if I'm not mistaken.

A (4:37)

That's right. So for people who don't know what lucid dreaming is, I used to do this a lot as a kid. Less so nowadays as an adult. I don't know what happened there, but maybe that's normal. Basically, it's like you realize at some point that you're dreaming Inception style and you go, oh, I don't want to be chased by a monster. I'd rather fly around the city of New York or London or oh my God, I'm drowning. No, no, no, this is a dream. Okay? I'm gonna swim around in the deep ocean and explore. And you just take over the dream and you create a world like your brain is just creating a simulation where you're the main character and invincible and have superpowers and all the cool things. And when I was a teenage boy, I did different things with it, which we won't talk about here, but. But like you. And it could feel a little bit. I could see how somebody might describe it as an out of body experience because you can kind of go, oh, I don't want to be in the water. It's uncomfortable. But I want my character to be in the water so it's still me. I'm just floating above the ocean a thousand feet and watching it all happen. And that's kind of an out of body experience, I guess. But since I haven't really had anything, I would call that other than lucid dream. I don't know if it's the same thing or not.

B (5:46)

Well, I think it might be. And look, I'm kind of in camp. It's all in the mind as well, but we'll explore that in this episode. But people who have near death experiences might feel like they're moving through a tunnel, like we said, towards a bright light. Or beings made of light. That's another one you hear a lot. Many people say they encounter deceased loved ones, spiritual figures, or just entities of the spirit realm. They experience their life flashing before their eyes. And very often it's accompanied by a deep sense of peace, joy, or transcendence.

A (6:21)

Yeah, that's.

B (6:21)

We are talking about death here, so that seems counterintuitive.

A (6:25)

I guess it kind of sounds like it could be Nice. But yeah, you're right, they're dying, so I don't know what's up with that. So in other words, near death experiences are kind of just like what we see in the movies when people are showing people dying or having a near death experience.

B (6:38)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we've seen this scenario in a million movies, and almost universally people who've had them say that they actually feel reluctant to return to their body.

A (6:48)

Hmm.

B (6:49)

Yeah, it's really fascinating stuff. But here's where the skeptical part comes in. Like you alluded to, there are many who say that this is actually proof of afterlife, that these experiences are not something in the brain, but an actual spiritual journey.

A (7:04)

And the skeptic atheist Michael Rigilio will not abide a spiritual journey. Am I right?

B (7:09)

Well, this particular instance is not quite like that. Look, now that we've discussed the broad strokes of what a near death experience is, let me say this. A near death experience is exactly that. It's an experience, a real experience. And I want to be clear about this because we often debunk supernatural claims and spiritual claims, but those are different.

A (7:30)

Different how?

B (7:31)

Okay, so sometimes spiritual claims are made by a grifter. That's just a fact. And they're trying to make a buck and it's my pleasure to debunk those. But near death experiences are totally different. And although we're going to be skeptical of supernatural claims around near death experiences, we are not going to be skeptical of the people having these experiences. These are normal people who were just living their lives and were subjected to something horrible and traumatic that brought them to death's door.

A (7:57)

Yeah, no one's out there asking for a near death experience. I guess now that you put it that way, yeah.

B (8:02)

And these are real experiences to them. They're not grifting. Well, almost none of them are grifting. We'll get to that later. There's a few examples, perhaps, but. But more often than not, people describe NDEs as being a blissful experience, like we said, going through the tunnel of light, meeting with sentient beings in another realm.

A (8:21)

It sounds like what people report when they think they have traveled to heaven or the spirit world or whatever.

B (8:27)

Right? And here's the thing, they come back changed. And many times, and I've watched so many testimonials, they'll tell you they are changed for the better. On the whole, people who have near death experiences don't fear death like the rest of us. Oftentimes they're less materialistic, more focused on bringing love into the world. These can be very. So strange to say this, but beautiful experiences. And the people that had them are, more often than not, very lovely people.

A (8:55)

Yeah, I'm guessing that having firsthand knowledge of the brevity of life and the beauty of the moment we have now, that must have kind of an, I don't know, enlightening sort of effect on people.

B (9:06)

Yeah, and look, their stories are really compelling and moving. And quite frankly, on more than one occasion, while researching this episode, I got a little bit missing.

A (9:16)

That's something the skeptical Sunday atheist has never said on this show. I honestly didn't think you had emotions other than anger. Hey, hey, hey.

B (9:22)

I cry all the time. Mostly at the comments people leave on my social media, but sometimes because I'm experiencing empathy for human beings. That said, we will be skeptical of the supernatural claims on this episode, but we will not be making fun of or diminishing the people who've had these experiences. I respect them too much and they seem like such a genuine good people to me. So that's how we're going to handle this episode.

A (9:48)

That's amazing. But, Rogelio, this is Skeptical Sunday, and we have to laugh at somebody. And frankly, I'm not volunteering. So who's on the chopping block?

B (9:57)

Okay, well, good news. Like I said, there are with all supernatural claims, there are a few grifters in the mix, and we'll be sure to mock them. So to get back to your original question, though, as to what is a near death experience, it's actually kind of a misnomer. One small study found that of 58 people who experienced near death experiences, only 28 were actually flatlining. That is to say, their heart was stopped or their brain activity was negligible.

A (10:22)

Like in the slightly campy 90s film Flatliners.

B (10:25)

Exactly. Like in Flatliners. The other 30 people in this particular study, they were just having a medical crisis. Okay, so we use the term near death experience, but in reality, for many people, it's just a medical crisis experience. And again, I want to choose my words carefully because I have nothing but respect for the people who have experienced this.

A (10:46)

Wow. I've got to see some of these testimonials because I haven't seen you this respectful of pretty much any other people we've talked about on this show, including your own family.

B (10:55)

So, yeah, hey, I'll be honest with you. Some of my family could use a near death experience. Hell, I could probably use a near death experience. These people come back genuinely chilled out.

A (11:08)

You know, if you need to Chill out. There are other ways, right? Edibles, yoga. Get a damn colonic, man. You're in L. A. Flush everything out.

B (11:16)

That would be the opposite of going through a tunnel of light, if I'm not mistaken. That's right.

A (11:20)

It's kind of the inverse. You don't need to commune with Buddha or whatever to unwind a little. But, you know, hey, look, maybe it can't hurt. What's the history of near death experiences? You said it's not a new phenomenon. Do we have. Are there ancient records of these kinds of things happening or historical accounts at all?

B (11:37)

Yeah, I mean, people will look back and interpret things they see from the past as being like an early near death experience. For instance, one of the most famous early accounts comes from Plato. In his work the Republic, he tells the story of the myth of Ur. Now, Ur is a soldier who is thought to have died on the battlefield, but he's revived and he comes back to life and tells everyone about what he saw in the afterlife. He describes his journey and there are souls being judged. And he seems. He says he sees a realm of light and some sort of like cosmic order.

A (12:09)

Okay, so not exactly the same as what we were talking about. I guess in a general sense it does, but it doesn't sound like the same thing as. It's not the same thing as modern people describe. Right. This is the ancient version of a near death experience, maybe.

B (12:21)

Well, that's true, but the truth is Most of the NDEs we've heard about are a result of modern medicine, so there aren't going to be a lot of comparable ancient stories.

A (12:29)

Ah, that is a good point. No one had near death experiences in the ancient world because if you were that close to death, you just died. No one was getting defibrillated back to life or whatever. There was no. What was that thing in Pulp Fiction where he jabs the needle through her sternum into the heart?

B (12:44)

Oh, yeah, it's like an adrenaline shot to the heart.

A (12:47)

Is that real? Is that a thing that can really happen? Or is that straight out of the movie? I gotta look this up because that seems like a thing that wouldn't be real. But then, I don't know, maybe it is.

B (12:55)

I have no idea. I mean, there are things that they give addicts. I have. There's an Instagram page that I come across which is. I think it's out of San Francisco by where you are. I think it's called like Tenderloin activities. And every once in a while you see somebody on a sidewalk and people Are like poking them and like, dude, are you alive? Are you dead? And the paramedics show up and they do something that kind of brings them back to life.

A (13:19)

Narcan, probably.

B (13:21)

Yeah, probably something like that. Sadly, I'm not too versed in the drug addict world. Yeah, managed to have a good life without becoming addicted to heroin or meth.

A (13:32)

Yeah, just functionally using heroin and meth for funsies.

B (13:35)

I've heard about people that could do that too, but look, I wouldn't be one in the modern era. You're absolutely right that near death experiences get reported more because we have all this advanced medical tech and you can literally just bring people back from the brink.

A (13:48)

So when did the first near death experiences take place as we understand them from a modern point of view?

B (13:54)

Okay, well, the first real medical account, like a doctor actually writing in their journal, comes from the 1700s when a French doctor wrote about a patient who fainted, saw a bright light, and thought he was in paradise.

A (14:06)

Okay. He just fainted. That seems to bolster the notion that this is just something that happens in the brain under extreme circumstances.

B (14:13)

True. And spoiler alert, that's actually the position most experts land on. But as far as an actual near death experience, as we understand it, that was the first. And then after that, there's Albert Heim. This guy actually fell off a Mountain in 1871.

A (14:29)

Yeah, falling off a mountain. That's a little bit closer to death than just fainting. I would say that counts more. That goes in a different column.

B (14:35)

Yeah, it's actually an interesting story. So Heim was a Swiss geologist and he had a near death experience while he was falling during a climbing accident. He reported this feeling of incredible calm, even bliss, as he was falling, which, as we said, is kind of the opposite of what you'd expect to be experiencing as you're falling off a mountain.

A (14:54)

Yes. I'd be screaming, probably.

B (14:56)

I'd be crying.

A (14:58)

Right. You're quite the waterworks in this episode. Is everything all right at home? What's going on?

B (15:03)

Nothing a little NDE couldn't fix.

A (15:05)

I see. Yes, you got me on that.

B (15:07)

Anyway, after that experience, Chaim got curious and he actually surveyed other mountaineers and climbers and he found that a lot of them were reporting something similar. This kind of peaceful, almost detached feeling during a life threatening fall. His observations are the earliest recorded instances of near death experiences being studied in a systemic way.

A (15:26)

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A (18:19)

Don't forget about our newsletter. Wee BitWiser comes out pretty much every Wednesday. It is very practical, something you can apply right out of the box and it's a two minute read. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. Okay, so this is not unlike what I've heard from lots of extreme sports people on this show or outside the show. Free soloists, big wave surfers, skydivers, they all say there's a weird sense of detachment, time dilation, time slowing down, stuff like that. And although you could say that falling out of an airplane is a near death experience, it's not really a medical crisis. Right. It's not the same thing as, I don't know, getting hit by a car and waking up in the hospital or something. So it does seem like maybe these experiences are something our brain does in extreme, very extreme circumstances, like uncontrolled extreme circumstances.

B (19:08)

Yeah, you're totally right. And there's some science behind why we can feel like time is slowing down. By the way, it's super interesting. And it's not that the actual physics of time is changing, obviously, but your brain is basically going into hyper awareness mode. It's taking in huge amounts of details because it needs to pay attention to every detail because, hey, I'm going through a windshield at 80 miles an hour. Better pay attention, you know, and processing information at a much higher rate than usual in these emergency situations. It can create that illusion that everything around you is kind of slowing down.

A (19:43)

I talked about the neuroscience of this with Dr. David Eagleman in episode 929. I don't have a lot of memory of what he said because I guess my brain wasn't slowing things down during that show. But basically this is a common phenomenon and it is an illusion. They can do tests where they basically can test if your brain is remembering more things at a higher so called frame rate. And it's not from what I remember. It's just you have a higher recollection of the details. It's not like. It's not like your brain is actually seeing things in slow motion. It actually just remembers them in slow motion. I could be wrong about that. I'd have to re. Listen to the episode. But Anyway, that's episode 929. Wouldn't you say that part of a near death experience is a sense of timelessness, being detached from time entirely? Could these two be related from a chemical neurological point of view?

B (20:32)

Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. And that's actually a spot on connection. One of the common threads in near death experiences is that sense of timelessness or being detached from time. And it does seem like that could be related to what the brain is doing on a neurological level in these extreme or life threatening moments. Your brain is kind of stepping out of the usual flow of time perception. It's focusing so intensely on the present moment that it creates this feeling of being outside of normal time together. Sometimes, like we said, also out of the body.

A (21:02)

Okay, so the out of body experience.

B (21:04)

Yeah, I mean, that is a huge part of NDEs. It's all tied together. And by the way, the term near death experience is super new. It was coined in the 1970s by a psychiatrist, Raymond Moody, in his book Life After Life.

A (21:17)

A psychiatrist named Moody. That's a little on the nose, don't you think?

B (21:21)

Well, it's the patients that are usually moody. That would suck to have a psychiatrist who was moody. Like I told you, I don't want to hear about your mother anymore, okay? Sorry, bro.

A (21:30)

Chill. Yeah, exactly. Somebody needs an nde.

B (21:34)

Exactly. But yeah, so his book Life After Life is pretty much the book that kicked off modern fascination with near death experiences. It basically introduced the whole idea that there's a pattern to what people report when they come close to death and then come back.

A (21:48)

And because of that pattern, people started to think, as I mentioned at the top of the show, that there was a there, there. Maybe people were actually going into a spiritual realm. That's why they were reporting similar stuff back. I don't know.

B (22:00)

Right. Like we said, stuff like moving through a tunnel, encountering a bright light, feeling a sense of peace, sometimes meeting deceased loved ones and then coming back with a changed outlook on life.

A (22:09)

And if that was the case across the board and across the world, one might suspect that there's some truth to this, but Dr. Moody's book, this is kind of a Western centric perspective, right?

B (22:18)

Yes, and that's another spot on observation there. Jordan too. But Dr. Moody was in fact a Western doctor reporting on Western patients. Patients who had all had the same preconceived notions about what the afterlife would be like. Not surprisingly, it fits the narrative of what they believe heaven to be.

A (22:37)

It makes me curious about what near death experiences are like in other parts of the world, in other cultures with different ideas about what happens after death.

B (22:46)

Exactly. And that was the big criticism of the book. When researchers started looking into NDEs in other cultures, they did notice variations. For example, in cultures with Buddhist or Hindu backgrounds, people might describe seeing a river or a bridge rather than a tunnel, or they might encounter figures that align more from their own religious traditions. In some cases, people from different cultural backgrounds might not see a being of light at all, but something more like ancestors or guides. It all just fits their specific belief systems. So, yeah, there's a cultural lens that can shape how these NDEs are reported and experienced.

A (23:22)

It seems like while there might be a basic physiological trigger, the way the mind fills in the details, that seems like it's heavily influenced by cultural or religious imagery and stuff like that.

B (23:34)

Okay, so clearly our rules are slightly reversed in this episode. You're coming at this with a highly skeptical point of view.

A (23:40)

Yeah.

B (23:40)

So let me just say welcome.

A (23:41)

Someone's gonna do it.

B (23:43)

Let me just say, welco, welcome to the pedantic guy that ruins the parties club.

A (23:48)

Yeah, I may have co founded that club for other reasons, but yeah, I'm kind of just calling it like I see it. Right. The whole, this whole thing points to yo, this is happening in the mind and your brain's constructing stuff based on your religious or cultural education, and it's kind of inescapable.

B (24:01)

You're 100% right. And if everyone was truly going to the same metaphysical place, you'd expect a lot more uniformity. The fact that these experiences get filtered through personal and cultural beliefs definitely points to them being brain based events, at least from a skeptical or scientific perspective. But the people who are proponents of NDEs being evidence of a life after death will tell you that the brain is flatlining and that it's basically dead at the time, and that they could not be having these experiences only in the brain. So let's jump to some of the famous cases, like Pam Reynolds. In the early 1990s, Pam Reynolds underwent a wild, just wild brain surgery for a large aneurysm during which she was in a state of hypothermia and had no measurable brainwave activity or blood flow in her brain.

A (24:52)

Okay, I'm no doctor, but hypothermia and no blood flow in her brain. Did they freeze her and drain her of blood or what?

B (25:01)

That is exactly what they did.

A (25:04)

Wow, you're right. That is crazy.

B (25:06)

So she had this giant aneurysm in her brain, and it was too big and risky to operate on, so they had to put her basically into a frozen coma and drain all the blood out of her head.

A (25:17)

Wow. I didn't know you could do that.

B (25:19)

Neither did I, much less in the 1990s, which.

A (25:22)

Yeah, wow.

B (25:23)

I mean, I think it was highly experimental at the time, but, yeah, she was totally flatlining. I mean, she had no measurable brain activity, but after the procedure, she was able to accurately describe the tools the surgeon was using to open her skull, and she could recount conversations she heard in the operating room.

A (25:40)

Wow.

B (25:41)

This, as Pam tells it, was because she was having an out of body experience and was not in a coma on the operating table, but she was floating around the room, you know, and she also experienced the usual stuff like the tunnel of light, et cetera, et cetera.

A (25:56)

Okay, obviously, I'm not gonna try to disparage Ms. Pam Reynolds and her experience here. I mean, anyone that's brave enough to be frozen and drained has my respect at some level. But right off the bat, I have questions. I saw a documentary about a woman who was in a coma, and she said things that blew my mind. Things I was totally unaware of. Like she could hear people talking in the room around her, and she knew what was going on, but it was all filtered through this coma haze. But she could hear them. So someone who's technically in a coma, being able to recall the things that were said in the operating room, it sort of just seems normal and not that extraordinary to me.

B (26:31)

Yeah, and other critics will point to that as well. Plus, look, if I'm being honest, she said she described the saw that they used to open her skull as being like an electric toothbrush. But, I mean, anyone that's heard the dentist drill, which I'm assuming she could hear it and seen it, knows that all these little surgical tools kind of look like an electrical toothbrush. I don't know, but I personally, upon hearing that account and then looking at the tool, I was not super impressed that she's described this thing that made this sound as looking like an electric toothbrush.

A (27:06)

No, and also, if they're like, hey, we sawed your skull open. You're like, cool. I've seen that in a movie. And there's a little saw that looks like an electric toothbrush that they use. And it's totally something I saw in the room and not something I saw in a movie five years ago that I forgot about.

B (27:18)

Yeah.

A (27:18)

Nonetheless, it is curious that her brain is showing no activity, and yet she's having these memories or whatever they are. But I don't know. We've talked about memory on the show, and it's kind of like your brain makes it later, but let's get into that. Maybe later.

B (27:31)

Right. Well, you nailed it, because that is one of the big points of contention in the whole NDE debate. And the folks who argue that NDEs are evidence of an afterlife will say, well, the brain was clinically dead, so how could there be any consciousness at all? But neuroscientists will point out that clinically dead on an EKG or an EEG doesn't mean there's absolutely no brain activity happening at all. It just means that it's not detectable to the modern gear that they have.

A (27:59)

Plus, again, like I was saying before, the brain is super capable of reconstructing memories and experiences after the fact. I shouldn't even say reconstructing, constructing in the first place. Yeah, right. Memory studies have shown time and time again. I mean, I've done this on the show a lot. Memories change over time. Every time you remember something, you're remembering, remembering it. So it's sort of like this very malleable thing. Your brain is making it up again every single time. It's not. You're not accessing some hard drive in your head. So we don't know that these things are happening in the moment that the person is on the operating table. They are almost certainly constructed by the brain afterwards. And we would never have any possible way of telling the difference between those two things. A real memory and one that you're just making up right then that you happen to believe.

B (28:46)

Yeah, no, you are 100% correct. And that is such a good point, Jordan. You're absolutely right that the timing is a huge question mark.

A (28:53)

You know, you don't get paid more for these by flattering me and making me like you during the episode. Right.

B (28:59)

Worth a try. Anyway. We don't have a perfect way to know if these experiences are happening exactly during that flatline moment or if they're happening in a sort of blurry window as the brain is either shutting down or coming back Online, the brain is actually pretty good at creating coherent narratives out of fragmented bits of memory. So it's possible that what people recall as a continuous otherworldly journey might actually just be a reconstruction that the brain stitches together once they regain consciousness.

A (29:27)

So basically, from a scientific standpoint, the argument is that just because someone felt like they had an out of body experience during a flatline, it doesn't mean the experience literally happened in real time in some other realm. It's more likely that the brain, this is just the brain's remarkable ability to fill in the gaps and create a narrative after the fact.

B (29:47)

Right? The whole notion of out of body experiences or because for some reason scientists don't enjoy saying full words. O b es have been studied in some really interesting ways. For instance, you have people like Dr. Sam Parnia and his colleagues who have been involved in the AWARE program, which is the Awareness during Resuscitation study.

A (30:07)

Yeah, I've heard about these experiments. They hide. It's like a number or a letter of, I don't know, a McDonald's Sonic the Hedgehog figurine or something up on a high shelf that only someone slash something floating above the shelves or operating room could see. So it's like, hey, if you're really up there, what was on the huge placard that was on the top of the bookshelf? It's like, oh, I wasn't really there, so nevermind.

B (30:30)

Well, I mean people claim they are and there's, you know, there's always going to be anecdotal evidence from people who say they've seen things during nds, but scientifically confirmed cases of someone spotting a hidden object, they just don't exist. But what's interesting with Dr. Parnia is that these are real scientists and real doctors studying this with solid scientific methods. In fact, one of the most famous cases of near death experience ever is in fact a doctor. And not just a doctor, but a brain surgeon.

A (30:59)

I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. Wasn't this guy on Oprah?

B (31:02)

Yep, you've got that right. Eben Alexander was a neurosurgeon who contracted a rare case of bacterial meningitis that became very severe and affected his brain. He became so sick that he was placed into a medically induced coma and was unconscious for seven days. When he came back out of it, he had had a near death experience.

A (31:20)

So he himself had had a near death experience.

B (31:23)

That's right. He describes vivid and hyperreal experiences, meeting being of lights, visiting realms beyond boring.

A (31:31)

Because that's what everybody says.

B (31:33)

Okay, so he goes one further, and he recalled encountering a quote, core of divine consciousness.

A (31:40)

Core of divine consciousness. Wow. That's a new one. He had to add his own layer on there, otherwise he couldn't sell the book. Right?

B (31:46)

Yeah. And let's not kid ourselves. He's saying he met God, Right?

A (31:51)

Really raising the stakes. And let me guess, he was on Oprah. Was he selling a book? Because typically whenever anybody does some crazy crap like this and then goes on Oprah, it's because they got a book.

B (32:01)

Yeah, and his book had the rather unassuming title of Proof of a Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife.

A (32:10)

That sounds like something my ex girlfriend's mom would have read and bought a copy for everyone in her church and then talked about unending and then tried to convince me to join their religion. Anyway, although I haven't read it, this actually happened many times. Although I haven't read that book. I have read a few books that claim to have, you know, proof of aliens or whatever, and you're always left pretty unimpressed. It's like when you're watching a movie about a monster or aliens and then they show the monster and you're like, up. You ruined it. Because that was really lame and you shouldn't have done that. You know, remember that movie Cloverfield, where it's like an alien invasion. You can't see them and you're like, oh, this is pretty creative. Then they show some, like, basic bitch dinosaur, and you're like, you've ruined it. It's ruined.

B (32:49)

Yeah.

A (32:49)

That's how I feel about books that claim to prove aliens and. Or the afterlife and. Or anything supernatural. You're always like, but wait, where's the beef?

B (32:58)

Yeah, well, of course. And look, as to how convincing the evidence was in Dr. Alexander's book, let's just say they're not exactly teaching his Proof of Heaven book at the college level or even in seminaries. But that didn't stop Proof of Heaven from becoming a national bestseller. And it sparked a lot of interest. It also sparked a lot of controversy for Dr. I'm personal friends with God.

A (33:24)

Right. I hate to be so skeptical, but when somebody is selling a book based on a bunch of claims that are basically the equivalent of, well, you had to be there, I get a little. I get a little suspicious. And I guess being friends with Oprah, though, is the next best thing to being friends with God, Especially if your.

B (33:41)

Goal is book sales. Yeah. In fact, I can think of a lot of people that would prefer to be friends with Oprah than God.

A (33:47)

That's right.

B (33:47)

So most of Dr. Alexander's peers were skeptical as well. Scholars, neuroscientists, journalists, and skeptics have all raised questions such as Alexander does not provide convincing evidence that his brain was fully shut down during his experience. Experts point out that some, even small activity will generate vivid internal experiences. In fact, a fellow podcaster that you and I both listened to, Sam Harris, wrote a critique in which he describes Alexander's narrative as, quote, alarmingly unscientific.

A (34:16)

That is a very Sam Harris thing to say.

B (34:18)

Yeah, I know, but. And as we both know, Sam Harris, he is a. What did he study? I know he's a philosopher now, but wasn't it neuroscience that was what he studied?

A (34:27)

Yeah. I think he's a neuroscientist, if you can. Is that a job or just something you are when you study it and get a degree in it? But, yeah, no, he knows what he's talking about. This isn't. He's not just a. He's not just a podcaster.

B (34:39)

So the people who are both skeptical and know what they're talking about, they were not particularly convinced that this was a real thing. And they said that Alexander conflates medically induced coma with brain death or a full cessation of brain function. So he was playing games with words to make it seem like he was more dead than he really was, I think.

A (35:00)

Right. And it's really weird to do that as a doctor who knows better. It's not like a everyday guy on the sidewalk has this experience, and it's like, I was dead and I came back to life. It's like, no, no. You're a doctor and knows that you know the difference between these two things. But then you wrote a book and deliberately conflate them, and then you're on Oprah talking about it. It's just such an obvious grift. So in other words, the argument that we keep hearing, it can't be the brain because the brain wasn't active. That has yet to meet its burden of proof. Right. We don't know that the brain isn't active.

B (35:28)

Right. It sounds like a good time to start talking about all the things scientists really think are happening, other than the invisible ghost that lives inside of you floated up to heaven.

A (35:38)

There's the snarky skeptic. I knew he'd come out sometime.

B (35:41)

Well, you're right, because when there's a book to be sold and somebody got rich off the claims, it's easier to be skeptical and snarky because they have all the motivation in the world. In fact, in Dr. Alexander's case, I would imagine he has millions and millions of little motivations sitting in his bank account. Now, I'm not saying I discount the good doctor's experience, but many doctors who looked at his claims said that he was distorting the truth. And there was an article in Esquire magazine. It also pointed out that he had a number of malpractice suits and disciplinary actions against him. And there are even claims of him altering medical records in some cases. So I'm not sure he's the perfect spokesperson for I floated to heaven and hung out with God.

A (36:22)

Right, so otherwise, absolutely not even an ethical or competent physician. Great. So what do more legitimate doctors think? What do they really think is happening?

B (36:33)

Okay, so since we're talking about scientists and doctors here, they're careful to call these hypotheses, and the leading ones are oxygen deprivation. When blood flow, oxygen, or glucose to the brain is reduced or interrupted, as in cardiac arrest, severe shock or trauma. In these cases, neural circuits start malfunctioning. Some brain regions may fire abnormally. This could lead to hallucinations, distortions of time and space, and vivid imagery.

A (37:01)

I mean, that pretty much makes sense, right? You're in a horrific car crash, you go through the windshield, you're laying on the highway and you're like, I'm having an out of body experience where I saw the thing that everyone said happened to me after I woke up, right? I saw the thing that everyone told me numerous times happened to me. It's like, okay. And then there was light. Okay, well you did hit your head on a windshield and then on the pavement at 50 miles an hour and are lucky to be alive. So could the flash be the afterlife? Or could the flash be you got hit in the head multiple times when you went through the windshield and then hit the ground? I mean, I don't know. It all makes sense to me that people think that this is happening and that your heart stopped and your brain hit something hard multiple times. I mean it. Okay? We expect that to just be business as usual.

B (37:45)

No, for one, when you hit your head, what do we say? You see stars? I'm seeing stars, man. I mean, light perception is some part of the traumatic brain injury, obviously.

A (37:56)

Yes.

B (37:56)

I'll tell you that some people who believe there's something more than just brain involved in near death experiences will tell you that this makes little sense. Because when people are normally oxygen deprived, they become very panicked People who have near death experiences become very calm, so they discount the oxygen deprivation as a cause.

A (38:14)

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B (38:38)

All.

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B (41:52)

And how would you even study people in life threatening situations that become oxygen deprived?

A (41:58)

Right. Probably can't really do that to somebody for the sake of science. Might be a little dangerous.

B (42:03)

Before we pull you out of this burning car, can we just hook you up to this machine and just couple quick measurements?

A (42:08)

Yeah, yeah, Right.

B (42:09)

So you ask a very good question there. And I don't think that they can study people in life or death situations who are oxygen deprived. Most of the studies that I looked into with oxygen deprivation come from pilots because, you know, they make these high G turns at high altitudes and that creates an oxygen deprivation situation. And as oxygen levels drop, these pilots will typically experience confusion, tunnel vision, dizziness and euphoria.

A (42:36)

Oh, wow.

B (42:37)

At first. But then as it worsens, they often become disoriented. And panic before losing consciousness.

A (42:42)

But the first part was tunnel vision, which kind of sounds like, you know, tunnel of light. Plus the. You said euphoria. I mean, this is all. There's some overlap here.

B (42:50)

Yeah, yeah. And I noticed that in my research as well. I'm just telling you what the critics of it's all in the brain hypothesis have to say. One of the other hypothesis is hypercopnea, or elevated CO2 levels. This can alter cerebral blood flow and could lead to visual phenomena or light perceptions.

A (43:09)

I want to hear all the reasons doctors and scientists believe near death experiences happen, but I'm already becoming suspicious that it's a, you know, it's a combination of things, right? Yeah.

B (43:18)

Holy guacamole. Jordan Harbinger, a blue riven gold star skeptic in this episode.

A (43:24)

Okay. Again, same pay, regardless of how effusive the praise during the episode.

B (43:28)

Fine. Okay. I don't want to spoil the end, but you've already actually just jumped to the conclusion that most experts believe that it's a combination of things that are happening at the same time. And some of those things are neurochemical effects on the brain when it's in a stressful or extreme situations, including the release of endorphins, serotonin, dopamine, and other neuromodulators, including dmt, dimethyltryptamine, which is a super strong psychedelic drug.

A (43:57)

Yes. I've had enough friends try DMT and tell me about it and heard enough Joe Rogan episodes, Right. To know that that is a spiritual journey unto itself. And I've seen the YouTube videos. Back in the day, they used to have YouTube videos of people doing it. They were actually a lot. They're probably gone now because, you know, I don't think they want videos of people actually doing psychedelics on YouTube. But you'd see somebody smoke this thing and just go through a really weird set of mumbo jumble, mumbling, whatever, and then like minutes later they're like, whoa, how long was I gone? And they're like five minutes. And they're like, no way. Because you have this whole trip during that time.

B (44:31)

Yeah. And studies show that DMT is released in the brain in these super traumatic experiences. So it all speaks to. It's in the brain. So besides neurochemical, there are actually also electrical discharges. Some researchers propose that abnormal electrical activities, such as spreading depolarization waves, may ignite neurons en masse and produce vivid dreamlike experiences. In fact, in dying brain tissue, certain regions may go into hyperexcitation just before shutting down. There's even a study on rats where it's observed that there's a burst of synchronized brain activity after asphyxiation. That is to say, just at the moment of death.

A (45:14)

I wonder. Oh, God, I can't believe I'm going here, but I wonder if this is why some people asphyxiate themselves while masturbating. By the way, this is what goes through my mind all day. People, stuff like this. But you know, you've heard about that, right? Where like, oh, so some movie star or whatever.

B (45:28)

David Carradine.

A (45:29)

Yes, exactly. The guy from Kung Fu Kill Bill. They find these guys like they hung themselves. And it's like, why did he kill himself? Well, it kind of looked like maybe he was rubbing one out at the same time. And you're like, what the hell? Yeah. And the lead singer there was that 80s band that I used to love.

B (45:43)

Yeah. In Excess. Michael Hutchinson. Yes.

A (45:45)

Wow, you have a really good memory for people who've killed themselves while masturbating by accident. That's. Yeah. You're a virtual encyclopedia of people who have accidentally killed themselves while masturbating. Michael Rigelio. Yeah. That is. Surely there's some overlap here, right? Like the asphyxiation part is supposed to add to it. I assume that's why you risk your life while rubbing one out.

B (46:07)

Yeah. I mean, look, I don't have firsthand experience, despite what you've insinuated, but clearly there is an. A heightened euphoria that happens.

A (46:17)

Don't try this at home, kids. It can literally kill you.

B (46:19)

Right. And speaking of these release of neurochemicals, this has even been backed up in a recent human study because a patient who died of a heart attack while being monitored for epilepsy doctors could actually capture the EEG activity in the seconds before and after death, which to them looked like memory recall and dreamlike patterns in his brain waves.

A (46:41)

Well, I might not have had a near death experience. That made me more chill and cool with the idea of dying. Learning that dying is a psychedelic, super wild trip, it kind of takes the edge off a little bit, I suppose. Yeah.

B (46:53)

And also because many near death experiences include strong visual imagery, some experts have theorized about how the visual system fails during extreme stress. For example, as the peripheral vision fails, tunnel vision begins.

A (47:06)

Yeah, I've heard about that. During stressful situations, I'm definitely becoming convinced that the tunnel part is absolutely explained through non spiritual realities.

B (47:16)

Right, absolutely. Me too. And memory stitching and cognitive reconstruction are other big factors. Like you said near death experiences might not be happening at the time that you're having the. That you're near death. It might be after.

A (47:29)

Sounds like a good time to drop a little Descartes. Didn't he basically say something like. He said something like, since the brain can deceive us, why should you completely trust the brain, man?

B (47:38)

No, yeah, you're right. Jordan Harbinger, bring in the goods to this episode. I love that quote. I wish I'd brought up that point.

A (47:45)

What I said was not a quote, but there is a quote there somewhere. It's just very Descartes and I can't remember it, but yeah, yeah, look, you can have that one, man.

B (47:53)

And lastly, as you already quite rightly pointed out, many experts believe that it is a hybrid of emergent factors that lead to near death experiences. That it's not a single cause, but near death experience happens when multiple stressors converge.

A (48:08)

It's almost ironic that if you die peacefully in your bed, if you're even a little bit aware of it, it's probably kind of scary, you know, but if you die horribly in a high stress situation, it's blissful and enjoyable somehow.

B (48:19)

I know, it's kind of crazy. Like if you hear somebody died in a car accident, you're like, well, at least they went out peacefully.

A (48:25)

Yeah. They're like, wait, what? No.

B (48:26)

Yeah. And if they die in their bed, you're like, man, that probably sucked.

A (48:30)

Yeah. Couldn't reach the light switch. Couldn't set. Yeah, exactly. No thanks.

B (48:34)

By the way, we say blissful for many that describe these near death experiences. But what we haven't talked about yet was the 10% of near death experiences that are just the opposite of what we discussed so far. These people are sent into a dark place and have horrible experiences. And some experts think that the number of people who have these terrible experiences, and I can't believe I'm saying this, people that have a bad experience while dying might be underreported because people are embarrassed to say, hey, I died on the table and went to hell.

A (49:06)

Yeah, that. I was wondering about that actually. That might leave people asking what you've been doing with your life. That would send you the opposite direction.

B (49:13)

Yeah, excellent point. So that is what the experts who believe it's all happening in the brain have to say. Now let's take just a quick moment to talk about the experts, scientists and doctors who are on the other side of the fence, or should I say on the other side of the tunnel of light.

A (49:27)

Yeah. Are there even that many doctors on the Other side of the tunnel of light.

B (49:30)

Well, it's actually a really small group, but there's what's called the Division of Perceptual Studies that is a research unit at the University of Virginia School of Medicine. And they investigate phenomena at the margins of mainstream science. Things like near death experiences, out of body experiences, survival of consciousness, children's memories of past lives, and other stuff like that.

A (49:52)

Okay, and how are they studying these things? Because it seems like it's all subjective. And isn't it almost impossible to study this with any degree of scientific rigor? Come on.

B (50:00)

Well, you know, I watched a whole documentary about what they do, and at the moment, the best they can do is just compile anecdotal evidence and stories that people tell them. I saw one interview done with a doctor at the Division of Perceptual Studies in which he said, yeah, it's all anecdotal evidence, but all science starts off as anecdotal evidence. But I wasn't very impressed with that statement because I was like, yeah, but the time to start believing in something is when that evidence goes from anecdotal to solid.

A (50:30)

Yeah. So, first of all, yes, but. So what have we learned today? That dying might be psychedelic, that brains are incredible storytellers, and that if you meet a being of light, ask it for the winning lottery numbers. I don't know, because just coming back happy, it's not really great evidence that your experience took place anywhere other than in your mind.

B (50:49)

Right. Or at least get the being of light to tell you what the number the surgeon hit up on the cabinet was. Look, here's the fact of the matter, and like I said, I want to be compassionate. Whether near death experiences are windows into another realm, which I'm convinced they're not, or just the brain's final fireworks show, they remind us of something real. And that is what these people come back telling us. And that is how fragile and how incredible consciousness actually is. And we should probably appreciate this moment that we have here on this rock, floating in an infinite vacuum.

A (51:21)

Yeah, look, I agree. That was pretty profound. You got one in right under the wire. Now you can go cry at the YouTube comments with dignity. Thanks, Michael.

B (51:30)

Thank you, Jordan.

A (51:30)

And thanks everyone for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday. To me. Jordanordanharbinger.com advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm @jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn you can find Michael @michaelrogigilio on Instagram. We'll link it in the show notes. His special War Bar dropped in October. We can link to that in the Show Notes as well.

B (51:55)

Yes, Warbar. You can watch it on Apple TV right now.

A (51:59)

This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Of course we try to get all these episodes as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it's fact checked. So consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. What if mind reading wasn't magic at all, but the result of empathy, psychology and awareness? In this preview, world renowned mentalist Oz Perlman reveals the real secrets of influence, charisma, and truly seeing others.

D (52:51)

I know how people think. A mentalist is kind of a subset of magic, misdirection, influencing, deception. But it's not mental magic. The things you convey to me, your non verbal communication, the way you pause, the way you enunciate, the way I move you in a certain direction by speaking very quick and then going very slow, all of that is my instrument on how I can entertain you. Create memorable moments. But do things that appear to be psychic appear to have no explanation? That I can seemingly read your mind, but I can't read my minds. I read people. It's not supernatural, it's not psychic. I want people to know that I am not talking to dead people or trying to rip you off. I've spent almost 30 years reverse engineering the human mind. It's the skills of a mentalist used in your everyday world. Cold reading, learning all the skills, learning how to manage audiences, learning how people think. If you boil down what my real skill is, it's not fooling you, it's not entertaining you. It's creating messages, memorable moments. And you have to define what that really means. Memorable moments are ones that people tell others about. And that's my secret to success. If you know how people think to create deeper bonds and better your relationships and increase your sales. It's going to help your life. Active listening and using your memory as your superpower. It's the ultimate cheat code in life. You can find something about anyone.

A (54:18)

To learn how small cues and genuine curiosity can make anyone more influential, confident and connected, check out episode 1230 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.