1271: Buzzing Teen Question Has Mom Second-Guessin' | Feedback Friday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show – Feedback Friday #1271

Episode Title: Buzzing Teen Question Has Mom Second-Guessin' | Feedback Friday
Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Co-Host: Gabriel Mizrahi

Episode Overview

This episode is a classic edition of "Feedback Friday" where Jordan Harbinger and Gabriel Mizrahi respond to listener letters about deeply personal dilemmas and family drama, offering practical advice and occasionally consulting with expert guests. The featured topics in this episode are especially raw and relevant: parental boundaries concerning teen sexuality, difficult family estrangements, and marital misalignment around life goals. True to the show's ethos, the hosts provide clear, research-informed perspectives—with a signature blend of candor, empathy, humor, and (sometimes) irreverence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Should You Buy Your Teen Daughter a Sex Toy?

Letter [05:15 – 06:48]

• The Dilemma:
  A mother in her 40s, recovering from purity culture, is approached by her 15-year-old daughter who asks if she can buy a masturbation toy. The daughter frames the request as a way to avoid feeling pressure to have sex. The mom, surprised but not opposed, seeks advice on appropriate boundaries and healthy sexual communication.

• Hosts' Initial Reactions [06:48 – 08:20]:

  • Jordan expresses discomfort with weighing in, joking: "There is nothing more cringe than two adult men on a podcast telling a mother whether she should buy her daughter a vibrating pocket rocket from Adam and Eve."
  • Gabriel points out the vulnerability and trust it took for the daughter to ask such a question.

• Expert Input [07:56 – 14:59]:
  Dr. Linda Baggett, clinical psychologist, advises:

  • This mother has already demonstrated "grade A parenting," given her daughter's comfort in approaching her.
  • It is absolutely appropriate, and in fact beneficial, to help a 15-year-old acquire a sex toy under these circumstances.
    • Sexual curiosity and desire are normal at this age.
    • Masturbation allows teens, especially girls, to explore their bodies without risk of pregnancy, violence, or shame.
    • Such openness models that sexuality is normal, pleasure is not shameful, and females are entitled to bodily autonomy.
  • Refusal or shaming could result in secrecy, risky behavior, or use of unsafe alternatives.
  • If it were her, Dr. Baggett “would do it without hesitation” and recommends collaboration: providing information, shopping together if the teen wishes, or helping her choose for herself.

• Boundaries & Guidance [14:02 – 15:41]:

  • Discuss privacy logistics (e.g., private space and time).
  • Decide together if the parent will help shop, provide resources, or simply offer support.
  • Seek age-appropriate store environments (e.g., women-owned sex shops, reputable educational sites like Babeland or Good Vibrations).

• Memorable Quote – Dr. Baggett [09:41]:

  “Allowing a teen girl to explore her own body on her own terms—without the risk of pregnancy, violence, sexually transmitted infection, heartbreak—in my view, is a gift.”

• Caution and Exceptions [12:37]:

  • This advice is specific to the situation described. It would change if the child were much younger, the parent initiated the talk, or there were signs of dysfunction.

• Key Parental Mistakes to Avoid [15:41 – 16:29]:

  • Oversharing, shaming, disrespecting privacy, or pushing an agenda.

• Hosts’ Takeaways:

  • Both express gratitude for expert guidance and admiration for the mother’s courage.
  • Jordan: "There's something sweet and honestly pretty remarkable about a child trusting a parent enough to talk about this..."
  • Final encouragement to parent based on new, healthy values—not from a place of fear or shame.

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2. Cutting Ties With a Toxic Family Member

Letter [20:37 – 24:01]

• The Dilemma:
  A listener in their 70s describes their problematic sister-in-law (“Marcia”), who has a long history of entitled financial dependency, verbal abuse, and erratic behavior. After years of lending support, most family members have blocked her, but the letter-writer is now tasked with communicating—concisely but compassionately—that Marcia is no longer welcome in their lives.

• Key Insights:

  • Jordan & Gabe frame Marcia’s behavior as likely due to a combination of mental illness, narcissism, and being enabled by family and her father.
  • Recommend a brief, firm, non-engaging phone call, focusing on conveying information (“We are not interested in a relationship under these conditions, that’s their choice, this is final.”)
  • Do not get drawn into debate, guilt, or argument.
  • After this, enforce boundaries—likely complete cessation of contact.

• Memorable Quote – Jordan [26:47]:

  “The way you’re talking to us, the way you’re behaving, I don’t think you intend it, but it’s actually driving all of us away. And it’s actually gotten to the point that... it is unsustainable to have any relationship with you.”

• Contextual Humor:

  • Numerous quips about Marcia’s financial decisions and absurd phone calls, e.g., “Minus 100 grand and plus one Facebook album full of blurry photos of you and your girlfriend from book club at the Ritz Carlton Waikiki. That’s where you are.” [21:42]
  • Jordan: “Excuse me, can we get another round of $18 margaritas? Yeah, she’s in poverty.” [28:27]

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3. Marital Mismatch: Deciding Whether to Have Children

Letter [30:33 – 38:32]

• The Dilemma:
  A woman in her 30s, after several years of a nomadic marriage, finds herself ready to settle, buy a house, and have kids. Her husband’s response to the prospect of children is distant and evasive; recent attempts at honest dialogue (even couples’ therapy) have failed.

• Key Insights:

  • Communication breakdown: Despite years together, they never directly aligned or spoke clearly about marriage, children, or household responsibilities.
  • The wife recognizes her own avoidance in not pressing for clarity, as well as her husband’s tendency to acquiesce to avoid hard discussions.
  • Jordan is unusually blunt, stating he doubts this marriage is viable long-term, especially for raising a family.

• Advice [39:04 – 46:12]:

  • True compatibility requires shared values and vision; both parties must actively participate in honest conversations.
  • Wanting to make an incompatible partnership work often leads to greater pain.
  • Fantasizing about other relationships is a sign of emotional withdrawal and unsustainability.

• Memorable Moment – Jordan [44:11]:

  “This is not a diet, it’s not a gym routine. This is her marriage. This is her life.”

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4. The Window Shade Wars: Listener Reactions

[52:14 – 72:43]

A humorous, spirited postbag about the passionate debate over whether window seat passengers on airplanes should be required (or encouraged) to close their shades on overnight flights.

• Arguments For Closing the Shade:

  • Majority of passengers want to sleep or watch movies without glare.
  • Cabin crew often requests it.
  • Leaving the shade open is presented as “solipsistic” (self-centered, unmindful of others).

• Arguments Against:

  • Some passengers enjoy the view, get motion sickness, or have claustrophobia.
  • “If you’re sensitive to light, bring an eye mask.”

• Ethical/Philosophical Framing:

  • Gabe: “How to negotiate the balance between one’s own interests and those of other people when you’re in public. The eternal question.” [64:26]
  • Analogies abound: blasting music on the subway (“Your music isn’t confined to your picnic basket, just like the light from your window is not confined to your seat.” [69:37])

• Memorable Quote – Jordan [63:33]:

  “It’s not just about people sleeping. Watching a movie, reading a book, or even just having a conversation in a dark cabin—all of those also get disrupted when one person opens their window shade.”

• Funny Listener Stories:

  • A “rhinestone cowboy hat” doubled as a disco ball on a plane, causing unintended chaos.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• 01:14 Jordan: “On Feedback Friday...we extract our pound of flesh. Or, in my case today, a phlegm from the villains in your letters.”
• 06:48 Jordan: “Okay, Gabe, you take this one. I am out.”
• 09:41 Dr. Baggett (via Jordan): “Allowing a teen girl to explore her own body...without the risk of pregnancy, violence...that is a gift.”
• 14:59 Jordan: “The key to these boundaries is all of this should be both collaborative and honor what you both need and not cause either of you harm.”
• 26:47 Jordan: See above.
• 44:11 Jordan: See above.
• 63:33 Jordan: See above.
• 64:26 Gabriel Mizrahi: “How to negotiate the balance between one’s own interests and those of other people when you’re in public. The eternal question.”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 05:15 – Letter #1: Teen daughter requests a sex toy
• 08:44 – Expert (Dr. Baggett) advice and parental boundaries
• 20:37 – Letter #2: Estranged, entitled sister-in-law
• 26:47 – Sample script for family cutoff conversation
• 30:33 – Letter #3: Marital misalignment around kids/roles
• 44:11 – On redefining the concept of “wife” and marriage
• 52:14 – Listener feedback: Airplane window shade debate
• 63:33 – “Window shade wars” philosophy
• 71:22 – Listener story: Rhinestone cowboy hat on a flight

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Tone & Style

• Candid, direct, and sometimes irreverent.
• Balanced with empathy, evidence, and, when needed, professional expertise.
• Frequent use of humor and lighter moments to balance the weight of the topics discussed.

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Conclusion

This Feedback Friday epitomizes the Jordan Harbinger Show’s mix of practical advice, candid humor, and nuanced discussion around tricky, often taboo, life issues. The show underscores the importance of open communication, healthy boundaries (in families and marriages), and the willingness to consult experts or rethink inherited values. While certain advice is direct—sometimes uncomfortably so—the underlying aim is always to help listeners lead more informed, authentic, and empowered lives.

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For more, including the full expert consultation with Dr. Linda Baggett, details about upcoming guests, and a vibrant listener community, visit jordanharbinger.com.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel comfortable you're finding top talent you can't find anywhere else. The best part is that those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn, they're 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal when every hire counts. Think about the last time you worked with somebody who just got it. You didn't have to redo their work after hours. You could actually trust them. Now compare that to the cost of a bad hire. Training time, salary, lost opportunities, stress on your existing team, and then the emotional fun of letting them go and starting all over again. When you add that up, spending a bit of energy up front to find the right person is a no brainer. That's exactly where LinkedIn Jobs shines, helping you get it right the first time so you're growing your business instead of constantly cleaning up hiring mistakes. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com harbinger then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com harbinger to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer the Allen Wrench, helping me assemble this prefabricated davenport of life drama Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from rocket scientists to four star generals, gold smugglers to money launderers. This week we had Jamie Mustard, author of Child X. This is a memoir of slavery, poverty, celebrity, Scientology. I don't mean slavery like plantation slavery. I mean this is stuff that was happening in the 80s. And Scientology. Jamie was born into Scientology on what he called a baby farm. There was forced labor, no education, FBI raids and a billion year contract. His story arc is bananas. He's a really interesting guy. We also had an out of the loop last Sunday on Venezuela. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and generally extract our pound of flesh. Or, in my case today, a phlegm from the villains in your letters.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Speaking of which, Jordan, do you want to tell everybody why you sound like death today?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I went to a Disney hotel. That's not the whole reason.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

What a weird flex. To the Little Mermaid themed palace down in Hawaii when I sat in the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Front row at Hamilton.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what happened is I decided to take the kids to Hawaii, and I thought, this will be fun. I'll take them to a Disney hotel. You can tell this is not really my idea. Jen decided this, and when we showed up, everyone from staff to every guest was coughing like a barking dog.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm sure you say Disney hotel. I hear RSV Sandbox.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. This was a cruise on land. You know, just kids coughing on other kids and then grownups who should know better coughing on kids. Your favorite thing, you're like, I will throat you, sir. That sounds perverted, but you know what I mean?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Does that mean I will throat you?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I meant throat punch, but I'm not fully operational today.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But a weird way, it's like, it's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's the triple X version.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Strange punishment. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Depends who's getting. Depends which. Anyway, the other thing that Disney Hotels is people trade pins.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like your ATM codes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Just like Oz Perlman. He'll guess your pin code. No, like, you'll have a Mickey Mouse pin and someone else has a Little Mermaid pin or whatever. And so my son is super into this. And the staff will give your kids pins if they're being good and cute, and then you go trade them at pin trading hour at each store.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's like Disney Pokemon.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. But you're touching a bunch of people's pins and then you pull another pin off the board, and so you're just sharing germs with the entire hotel. And. Yeah. So basically, the kids were one bite in, which is all they ate, of course, to their $70 waffles at the Character Breakfast. And I was like, I'm getting sick for sure. And the next day, I was just sick. Yeah, I had what I have now, which is weird because I don't feel bad. Like, you can hear I still have energy, but my voice and my lungs are like, yeah, we're just operating at 50%.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You know, I got to say, you don't sound bad. It sounds cool, actually.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If I could keep the voice without the disgusting cough that when you use it in public, people look at you like I sound like a homeless man on the street from Grand Theft Auto 5. That's what I sound like right now. Like when you walk over one of those veterans who's like, you have anybody for me? That's what I sound like right now. Like kind of like the like rugged, like Defender. I gotta do the Defender ads. Defender built from the ground up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You sound like a ram commercial built for tough.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's what I feel like right now. Anyways, whenever I'm in a hotel, Jen's always, it's cold and I'm like, it's hot. So she turns off the AC and I sit on top of the blankets with like butt naked with sweating. And she's like, I'm still cold. So I slept four hours and four days. That essentially was the last nail in the coffin of my immune system. So anyway, we're going to go long today and I got to keep my voice. So let's. What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a wife and mother in my 40s and my 15 year old daughter just asked me if I can buy her a toy for masturbation. She wants a toy so she doesn't feel driven to have sex right now, which is a very worthwhile reason in my opinion. I'm not necessarily against her having one. I'm just caught completely off guard about how to answer and I don't want to damage her trust. I told her I heard her question and need time to process it. She took a leap in being vulnerable with me on such a sensitive subject and I feel the courage it took for her to say something to me. I never in a million years would have felt comfortable asking my own mother the same question. I grew up in a church culture that told us to stuff our feelings down, that feelings were sinful anyway and that only rotten sinners had sex before marriage. I didn't even know what masturbation was at her age. While I've done a tremendous amount of healing from purity culture and the religious beliefs that fostered it, and I absolutely repudiate those tenets I'm struggling with where boundaries should be and how to help her establish a healthy sexual self knowing that I cannot control her. What do you think I should do? Is it okay to buy toys for 15 year olds? And what are some safe sexual boundaries for parents and teenagers in a situation like this? Signed, hoping you can prime a mother who had to climb out of a background where this stuff just wasn't Given airtime, so she can appropriately chime in on her daughter's interest in a little me time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, Gabe, you take this one. I am out.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Time to consider adoption. That's my professional opinion.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. You guys had a good run. Make this somebody else's problem. I kid, obviously. Well, speaking of kids, interesting question. Definitely a first for us on the show. This is something I think a lot of parents would struggle with, including me. So I guess I'll take some notes over here. I gotta say, my first thought when we read this letter was, can't she just go buy this product herself? Why does this need to be a family outing? But then I actually learned in some states you have to be 18 to purchase a sex toy, which I didn't realize. That makes very little sense to me, honestly. I mean, you don't want a 10 year old buying this stuff, but like a 16 year old, a kid can't buy a Fleshlight or whatever. I mean, are we really policing that? Anyway, I'm going to assume y' all live in one of those states or counties, and that's why this is the thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's also possible that she's asking her mom because she's embarrassed to go on her own, or she doesn't know how to go about this, or she's asking her mom for help not because, you know, like, the logistics are a problem, but simply because she wants to be able to talk to her mom about this stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She doesn't want it to be a big secret.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, she feels safe with her. She wants to be open, which I have to say, is actually sweet in a certain way. I do get the sense that's the real conversation happening here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point. And that's really what this letter is about. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this, so we reached out to Dr. Linda Baggett, clinical psychologist specializing in women, sexuality, body image, relationships, and trauma. And boy, am I happy we have an expert today because there is nothing more cringe than two adult men on a podcast telling a mother whether she should buy her daughter a vibrating pocket rocket From Adam and Eve.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, our friend here is wincing so hard right now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We can have a laugh about this along the way. I don't know how I'm going to get through it. Anyway, grateful to Dr. Baggott for helping us out here. And the first thing Dr. Baggott said was, it sounds like you handled this conversation very well, all things considered. She also said, and I totally agree, that really speaks to how far you've come and what a safe, trusting, non shaming relationship you've built with your daughter that she would even approach you about this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And that when you didn't exactly know how to respond, you asked to take some time to think. You reached out for advice. You didn't shut the conversation down or run away from it. You want it to handle this in a healthy way, in a positive way. I think all of that is really excellent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Agreed. To quote Dr. Baggett here, that is some grade A parenting. So Dr. Baggett had a very clear response to your question. She said it is absolutely okay to help a 15 year old buy a sex toy. In fact, she said there are several positive reasons to do so. I know that might take some people by surprise, took me by surprise a little bit. But I thought her logic was interesting. So first off, Dr. Baggott said that the reality is girls typically develop sexual desire between 11 and 14. Around half of them engage in some type of sex by age 19 and over half view pornography. That means teen girls are largely learning about sex from pornography and other teens who are either much more experienced or equally inexperienced. So allowing a teen girl to explore her own body on her own terms without the risk of pregnancy, violence, sexually transmitted infection, heartbreak, in Dr. Baggott's view, that is a gift. Second, Dr. Baggott believes that that sends the message that sexual desire in the body in general is normal, natural, and nothing to be ashamed of. And it sends the message that sexual pleasure is important for women and that they do not have to depend on someone else for it. In Dr. Baggett's view, those are all positive messages that set teen girls up for emotionally and physically healthy sex lives as adults. Whereas if you said no, that could lead her to feel shame about this and she probably wouldn't come to you with sexual concerns in the future. And Dr. Baggett pointed out she could turn to sexual activities with others or unsafe objects, which is gross to think about as an alternative. So to quote Dr. Baggett here, if it were me, I would do it without hesitation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But to be clear, by help her buy one, Dr. Baggett means talk together about it. Maybe look together, talk to a salesperson together, find helpful articles together, stuff like that. And then your daughter chooses like she's not endorsing you as a mom going out and choosing a sex toy for your daughter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And again, the fact that she asked you for help, that probably suggests that she doesn't know how to go about buying one or choosing one. So Dr. Baggott said that if it were her, she'd ask her teen if she wanted help picking one out, either from her or another trusted adult, or if she wanted her to point her to articles about how to choose for a beginner and let her do it herself.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Now, I want to pause here for a second because Dr. Baggott's take took us a little bit by surprise, to be honest. Not the whole healthy, open sex positive approach. We're generally all for that. But for the unequivocal endorsement for helping a child buy a product like this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just the idea of going together with your daughter to an adult store to buy a vibrator is just. I mean, that's a fun afternoon. I'm just picturing the guy who rings them up going, so what app did you two meet on? And our friend's like, oh, no, no, no, this is my daughter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hopefully it's women working at these places that'll make it easier.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know. The one by me is a guy working there.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, really? I would love to hear how you know that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's right next to this taco place I like. Okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, sure. Got it. I'm sure you were there for their carnitas.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Got it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Carnitas and ky. Sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Langosta and lube.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, just don't put those on the same taco.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Once again, I would love to know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

How you know that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Anyway, we asked Dr. Baggott about this. Is this a Dr. Baggott stance or is this what most mainstream or conventional sex therapists would advise nowadays? And her response was, yeah, it's probably somewhere in between. In her experience, most therapists who work with teens who work with sexuality trauma, religious trauma, especially relationships, they would likely agree with this take, provided again, in Dr. Baggett's experience, that they are current on what is developmentally appropriate for this age. She did acknowledge, though, that there are definitely therapists out there who would be horrified at this idea. But in Dr. Baggett's view, a lot of those folks are probably taking a shaming sex negative stance, which, as you can see, is not her style, or they just don't know much about this topic.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I also want to highlight Dr. Baggett also qualified that her take would be very different if this were like a 9 year old kid or if this mom were pushing her agenda on a teen who hadn't initiated the conversation, or if there was even a hint of anything abusive or dysfunctional happening. But given the variables here, she believes this is safe and reasonable. And I assume that's obvious, but I just want to be clear.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, one of those big variables for Dr. Baggett is our friend here's personal history. She is very specifically talking about the harm that her own shaming, sex, negative upbringing had on her. She's acknowledging how hard she's worked to move away from that way of thinking. She's implying that she wants something very different for her daughter, an approach that hopefully aligns with her new values around all of this. So that really matters too. Also, our friend here is not opposed to the idea of the toy. Right? Her question is more, how do I handle this in a healthy way? So Dr. Baggott's take was, given that this is aligned with her own stated values and that it's developmentally appropriate, it is okay to do. Now, if she were writing in saying masturbation is sinful and this is horrifying, what do I do? Dr. Baggett said that she would respond differently. Then she would probably want to help her explore where her discomfort is. She would validate how different this request is from her own upbringing, her own worldview. She said she would probably provide some factual sex education. So that's important context, too. Dr. Baggett is saying you want to parent your child differently from how you were raised. You want to do that in a healthy way, in an appropriate way. Here's how you can do that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That said, Dr. Baggott also believes that safe boundaries are super important here. One big boundary is offering information and support around sex in an age appropriate way. Another is just being willing to have this conversation with your daughter because in doing so, you're respecting her bodily autonomy and the reality of her experience, which is that she's experiencing sexual desire. Another way to establish safe boundaries is by having a collaborative discussion with her around privacy and how you'll go about doing this in a way that honors both of your boundaries. For example, giving her private time so you or another household member won't accidentally walk in on her, which I'm sure you would agree would be unfortunate for everybody involved. Another example, deciding whether you feel comfortable actually helping her shop. Do you want to take her to the store? Do you want to give her the credit card? Let her handle this herself? Do you want to give her some good online resources that talk about how to choose a toy like this? Dr. Baggott said there's articles for teens specifically, by the way, do you want to suggest that she ask another trusted adult to guide her? Bring dad into the picture. I'm sure he'll love it. That's a good family outing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dude, you thought the interaction with the cashier was going to be weird. Just wait till dad is throwing down the visa for that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I was joking. No need to email me with a finger wag, guys. On this note, Dr. Baggot mentioned that if you do go with her to a store, women owned adult stores tend to be safe. They tend to be clean. The staff is helpful, knowledgeable, they're happy to provide guidance. You don't have to go to one behind a Chevron station run by a guy who's not allowed within 100ft of a school or something like that. She also said there are some reputable educational websites like Babeland or Good Vibrations. They tend to have guides on how to choose products like this for beginners, as well as a bunch of other helpful info. But anyway, Dr. Baggot's insight here was the key to these boundaries is all of this should be both collaborative and honor what you both need and not cause either of you harm.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And again, you already did exactly that by telling your daughter that you needed time to think. In Dr. Baggot's view, that was respectful, that was kind to both of you. In her experience, though, where parents can go off the rails with boundaries in sex is when they share too much information about their own sexuality. Or when they shame their children, of course. Or when they don't respect a teenager's privacy. Or when they provide age inappropriate information or ask questions in a sensational way to satisfy their own curiosity as opposed to helping a child with a specific need.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Gosh, there's so many gross things that you can imagine going wrong with that. Asking questions in a sensational way to satisfy their own curiosity. I guarantee you over the years we've seen Feedback Friday letters with people who are like, my mom told me this and this and this. And we're like, what? I remember a few of those.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sadly, I think parents probably do that all the time. Sometimes accidentally and sometimes sadly on purpose. Yeah, those are good guardrails, Gabe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm fully prepared for some people to write us saying that this is a bridge too far. Even if this mother doesn't want to shame her daughter, helping her shop for a product like this is weird. It's inappropriate, it's unnecessary. Honestly, though, I get it. I'm somewhat sympathetic to that viewpoint as well. But we're also hearing from a legit expert who is saying, actually done the right way, this doesn't have to be weird or damaging. Which again, so grateful for Dr. Baggott's consult here. And once you get past the weirdness and potential awkwardness, I think there's something sweet and honestly pretty remarkable about a child trusting a parent enough to talk about this. I don't think I would have gone to my mom or dad in 1997 or six or whatever and been like, hey, can I get one of these fleshlights? I'm sick of using my hands and it'll keep me away from my girlfriend. Not that that was true at all. But anyway, like we said earlier, the question beneath your question is really how to meet your daughter in this big conversation, in this new phase of her development. On that front, I think you're doing a wonderful job, especially given that you never in a million years would have asked your own mother this question and now your daughter is asking you. And I just think that says a lot. So well done on creating a very different environment for your child for having open conversations that are still healthy and respectful. If you keep checking in with her and with yourself about where the right boundaries are, I know that's going to make a huge difference in your daughter's life. Big thanks to Dr. Baggett for her wisdom. Here you can learn more about her and her [e-mail] and you can find Dr. Baggot on Instagram ellwomanpsychology. And now you can rub one out to the sinfully good deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. These are deals you can definitely tell your parents about. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. We're always told to kick off the new year as a new you, but honestly, I'm still busy trying to manage the current me Therapy helps you figure out what emotional baggage you're dragging around, what you can finally set down, and how to actually do that in a healthy, strategic way. And BetterHelp makes getting started really simple. You answer a quick questionnaire, they match you with a licensed US therapist using over 12 years of matching experience. And if the fit isn't quite right, you can switch anytime. No guilt, no awkward conversations. They've got more than 30,000 therapists on the platform, over 5 million people served, and live sessions average 4.9 out of 5 stars across 1.7 million reviews. That's a whole lot of people feeling a whole lot lighter. So if you want to drop a few emotional bags this year without reinventing yourself from the ground up, BetterHelp is a great place to start. BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] jorphdan that's betterhelp.com Jordan this episode is also sponsored by Delete Me. Delete Me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. I know a lot of us don't think about this stuff until something happens, but it's pretty shocking how easy it is to find personal info online. Try searching yourself online. You might see your home address, phone number, even family members names can just be sitting out there on data broker sites and that can have real world consequences. And it's not just criminals. More and more you got online partisans and bad actors digging up this info, using it to target people and it is preventable. I personally use Deleteme. It is such a great service, easy to set up. It only takes a few minutes and over time their agents will help remove your data from hundreds of data broker sites. Which, let's be real, none of us has the time or patience to do. The New York Times Wirecutter even named Deleteme their top pick for data removal services. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Jordan and use promo code Jordan at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Jordan and enter code Jordan at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Jordan code Jordan thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps our batteries charged and all of our various devices we have laying around here. To learn more and get links to all the great deals and discounts so you can support the show, visit the [e-mail] deals please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hi Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I are in our 70s and my sister in law has always been a mess. She's continually called for money and complained nonstop about how difficult her life is. She and her husband, who live out of state, always have their hands out with little to no consideration for others. When my father in law was alive, he gave them the down payment for their condo where they still live and always bought her cars. When he died, the estate was shared equally among his children. My Sister in law took her share, approximately $100,000 and quickly spent it on nonsense. We told her to put it in a 401, but she didn't listen. She even paid for a girlfriend to travel with her to Hawaii on vacation. All expenses paid.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Great cool use of money. What an idiot.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's her money. But my God, $100,000 on vacations and bullshit. I could never.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Here's the thing. It's fine if you have millions of dollars. It's not fine if you're broke. Why are you broke? Gee, you want to have fun? Take 10% of that. Treat yourself, treat your friend, make a memory. Great, you know I'm all about that. But put the other 90k in a Frickin Fidelity account. Marcia.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Minus 100 grand and plus one Facebook album full of blurry photos of you and your girlfriend from book club at the Ritz Carlton Waikiki. That's where you are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. I hope that cucumber water was worth it. Marsh. Jeez, these people, man.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This has been going on as long as we've been married. Over 40 years. Then one day she left my brother in law voicemail, calling his wife very bad names, calling his stepdaughters whores and saying that we all owed her money. My brother in law considers his stepdaughters his own since he never had biological children of his own. Needless to say, he and his wife were very hurt and angry. This was the final straw. At that point, he and my wife had enough and blocked her calls. All communications stopped.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So just to be clear, our friend here's wife and her brother cut the other sister off?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right. Other cousins also blocked her calls. I was the only remaining link. I tried to keep in touch occasionally. I would send her money at holidays and birthdays, but never received a thank you. I even went through the entire process to refinance her condo at a lower rate. But then I became the punching bag. So I eventually blocked her calls too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Unreal. Way to drive away the one person still on your team. This person is an idiot who's also.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Giving you money and helping you save money, which you desperately need.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Which is what she says she wants. Exactly right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This woman is out of her tree.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, this is pathological. I mean, nobody's that dense. There's something else going on here then.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Recently, she's been finding the contact information for my daughter's friends and my brother in law's wife's relatives and saying that we need to contact her, that we don't keep in touch. Basically Making us look like really bad people. I called her in the past to explain that her actions were unacceptable and that she needed to apologize. But she didn't. So I've now agreed to call her to set the record straight and tell her that these family members don't want her in their lives, period. I don't want to be mean spirited, but I do want to let her know in no uncertain terms that this is their decision. They are not going to change their minds. They are 1000% comfortable with the decision to never see or speak to her again. But I'm really struggling to come up with a message that is somewhat compassionate but also leaves no doubt. How would you put this? Signed, hoping I don't make a gaffe when I tell this woman that she's a nightmare and a half.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Boy, what a piece of work. I'm so curious how our friend here became the one point of contact for this woman after everything she did. She's not even his blood relative. All the rest of her family already cut her off. I don't know how he ended up here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That is interesting. We don't know how that happened. I mean 40 years of marriage, at some point it's kind of like it's all family, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe everyone else is like we don't want to do it, can you please do it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or he volunteered because he often takes on those responsibilities, goes out of his way to be the diplomat. Like sending her money on her birthday and refinancing her condo after she did a lot of crazy stuff. That is interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I wish we had a little bit more information about all this. He's either stepping up and representing the family appropriately or he might have a way of taking on way more than he has to. Or picking up the slack for everyone else.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or wanting to be the good guy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, maybe he has his reasons. Just an interesting pattern in this letter. Anyway, I'm really sorry your sister in law is this way. All of this is super weird. It's hurtful, it's very uncomfortable for everyone. Honestly, everything you're describing sounds like legit mental illness. Some combination of entitlement and narcissism and a profound lack of self awareness.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have to imagine enabled by her father, the one who died and probably a number of other people along the way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, this is a problem person.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have a very distant relative who is like this. She regularly turns on people, whips herself up into a frenzy. She'll call people, yell at them. She'll write five 10 page letters detailing all the ways that They've upset her, let her down. What they need to do to make things right. But then she'll beg people to visit her, she'll bribe family members to like, move back to her town so they can be closer. And one by one, they're all having to cut her off or put a lot of distance between them and her, which is what she fears the most, ironically. And she has no idea that she's making them do that. It's so sad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So sad. There are some truly unhinged people out here who aren't like, lock this person up in a psych ward crazy. But yeah, they're nuts. It's wild. So obviously this isn't someone you can have a healthy relationship with. And I guess I commend you for having the courage to communicate this to her. So the way I'd frame this is something like, listen, Marsha, I'm calling to share something with you it might be a little hard to hear. My intention is not to be cruel or hurt your feelings in any way. I'm just here to relay some information. As you know, a number of people in our family have found their interactions with you very challenging. I know you have your reasons for reaching out to them. I understand you want to be closer with the family. But the way you've gone about that, calling my daughters, friends, distant relatives, speaking poorly about us, it actually made it harder for everyone to be close. Impossible really. Because the way you're talking to us, the way you're behaving, I don't think you intend it, but it's actually driving all of us away. And it's actually gotten to the point now that my daughter, your brother, my wife, we all feel that it is unsustainable to have any relationship with you. It gives me no pleasure to tell you that I wish it weren't this way, but there it is. So I'm calling to let you know that, just so you understand why we are where we are and why we cannot talk anymore.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nice, hard message, but yeah, I like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's short, it's sweet. Or the opposite of sweet, I guess. Keep it focused on the information. Don't raise your voice. Don't use this call to make your case or engage with her deeply about any of this. I'm talking about a three minute phone call. That's what I mean here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And if she pushes back, maybe you say, look, I'm not here to get into all this. I know this is really difficult. I'm sorry about that, but I'm just here to Tell you where we stand, literally.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I wouldn't say anything more than that. Based on what you've shared, your sister in law, look this. She is not looking for meaningful conflict to resolve here. She is almost certainly going to lash out, try to guilt you or manipulate you and defend herself. There's zero point in that. Do not get involved in that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So that family member I just told you about, her children and her grandchildren had to have a version of this conversation with her and it did not go well. It didn't go well from the standpoint of she didn't say, oh my God, I've driven everyone away. Maybe I'm in the wrong here. It did go well from the standpoint of, look, we've told you what the problem is. We've given you the information. Now it's up to you to decide if you want to consider things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. Okay. So it actually did go well. Right. She just didn't react well. But who cares at this point? It's over. I think our friend here knows that he's not trying to change Marcia at this point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. It's just about not being totally cruel by ghosting her with zero explanation, even though the reason is clearly more than.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Obvious to literally anybody who's not mentally ill. Yeah, Gabe, I'm just thinking about how weird it must have been for our friend here's daughter's friends to get a call from this woman being like, this is Daniella's aunt Marcia. Her parents are neglecting me and they're bad people. Tell Daniella to tell her mommy to call her sister while they're sitting there listening to this looney tune they've never met in their life scream at them on a speakerphone.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. From the pool at the Ritz Carlton.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Literally, your mother's driving me into poverty. Excuse me, can we get another round of $18 margaritas? Yeah, she's in poverty.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I said like, okay, we'll pass along the message, I guess.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's so ridiculous. How do you even respond to that? Anyway, half the battle is delivering this message. The other half is enforcing the boundaries. So you might want to get on the same page with your family, decide how you guys want to handle her from here on out. Because I am sure Marsha's going to continue to call and text and email you guys. And it would help if you guys are clear and consistent in your response, which it sounds like is silence, basically, which to me sounds perfectly appropriate unless.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She re approaches you with a very different attitude. But I think that's extremely unlikely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, not going to happen. If she does, I would be worried that she's trying to manipulate you again. But if she really came to you with a new attitude, maybe years later, sure you can hear her out carefully. Call me when you get on medication and you've been in therapy for a year or three, Marcia.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Until then, enjoy that 2.6% interest rate I locked in for you before you turned on me. You're welcome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. Very sorry you have to deliver this message. It's not an easy one, but man is it gonna feel good to not deal with this bullcrap anymore. But your sister in law, she's made it a lot easier to deliver this message by being so out of line. So be firm, stay strong, stay connected to your compassion. She's obviously in a lot of pain, but yeah, I think it's gonna be a lot easier from here on out. Wishing you, your wife, your daughter and everyone normal in your family a huge hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us [e-mail], keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're struggling to manage a creepy and manipulative peer in your professional group, you've just learned your wife is secretly an escort, or your father has abandoned your mother with dementia and remarried a new woman in the eyes of God in a matter of weeks. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up [e-mail], we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. Wee Bitwiser bite sized gem from us to you. Delivered right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom of the show, I invite you to come check it out. It's a two minute read every week. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com news.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, next up Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been married for three and a half years and genuinely love my husband. I can be completely myself with him and our relationship has survived seven moves in five years, job changes, the purchase of a house, the subsequent financial loss when selling it, and living semi on the road in a trailer. We finally found an area we want to call home and are both ready to put down roots and stop moving. But since deciding to settle down, our relationship has changed. We never directly talked about having kids and starting a family, but I was upfront about wanting kids And I thought he was on the fence.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hold up. That's a little confusing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They never directly talked about having kids.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She was up front about having them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And she understood or assumed that he was on the fence.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So they did talk about it directly. I don't know what's happening here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's what it sounds like to me. Maybe she means that they didn't have fully open and honest communication around this topic. But how does that happen before you get married?

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is very surprising to me. They're married for three and a half years. They've been through all this huge stuff together. Wait, so hold on. They're in an RV driving for like 13 hours at a time. How do you not directly talk about whether or not you want to start a family at this point? You have played Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon for hundreds of hours. What else is there to talk about?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm not sure, but I think it's safe to say that something is now quite lining up between them here. So she goes on. We would be irritated by some children in public and enjoy our freedom, but we would also sometimes mention teaching kids our hobbies like hockey and skiing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so they haven't talked directly about it, but they are talking about their hypothetical children. Maybe it's more hypothetical for him than it is for her. I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe that's their way of talking, sort.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of implying things, filling gaps, hoping the other person's going to read between the lines. Yeah, not a great strategy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I had my second abortion last spring. I knew we were not in a healthy place to bring a child into the world. We were living in a campground cabin for a month and had no idea what our next living arrangement would be.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a difficult experience, I'm sure, but it sounds like you had some good reasons.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The experience this second time told me that the first was likely a miscarriage, as this time I felt pregnant.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know, man. I'm just reading the letter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The second time told me the first time was likely a miscarriage, but it wasn't a miscarriage. She terminated the pregnancy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm assuming she means that she thinks the pregnancy didn't take before the abortion. That's the only thing that makes sense.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay. I know women intuitively feel all sorts of things, but I'm not sure that feeling pregnant the second time means you weren't pregnant the first time. It could also be like a timing thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I told him that there would be no more abortions. This one was hard enough. Since then, I've been more careful with our contraceptives.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, good. That's. I think that's wise.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know if the reality of that statement hit him at the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is she referring to the no more abortions thing or this abortion was really hard on me?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Unclear. But once again we are confused and they are not entirely on the same page. Something about the way they communicate does not fully land all the time and.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Then they keep chugging along without making sure that the other person is on the same page.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Now that we're in an area that meets our combined needs, I am ready to start planning our future. Seriously. Save for a house and prepare to start a family. I'm 30 and unfortunately aware that the older I get, the riskier a pregnancy will be. While I would love to take a life break for a bit after a hectic several years, I don't want to sit around while the ability to start a family slips away. Plus, I enjoy thinking about my future and having something to work towards. But my husband was taken aback when I brought up children and our household has been uncomfortable since.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Once again, so confused. Dude.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I learned that he doesn't have a vision for his future and definitely would prefer to avoid this difficult conversation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Clearly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Clearly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I'm starting to get the sense that your husband does not want kids and he doesn't have the heart to tell you so he just played along slash stayed quiet when you brought this up, hoping it would magically go away.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Which is not cool. Interesting that she's saying he doesn't have a vision for his future because that's different from having a vision for his future that does not include children.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the problem is obviously bigger than just the kids thing. But the kids thing is a huge part of their future and it's a huge thing that's gone unresolved after a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Week of trying to have a healthy conversation with him, encouraging him to try journaling, leaving room for open communication, asking open ended questions, and even signing up for couples therapy. The week ended with no solution. He felt that I signed up for therapy behind his back and his schedule is now conveniently too full to make space for therapy. So I canceled it. Money is tight and it was out of pocket. I told him that he needs to think about this topic. Seriously. I need to know if he wants kids and if he doesn't. Why? I told him that I accept if he doesn't. But there's a difference between fearing parenthood and genuinely not wanting that lifestyle. The former would benefit from conversation and therapy, the latter is a Final life choice. I also told him that I fear him giving me an answer to appease me and end the conversation, only for him to wake up in 10 years resentful about where his life is and seeing his children as hindrances to the lifestyle he wants, leaving me in a position that I would call being a married single mother. I told him that I would drop the conversation until after the holidays. We were visiting family and he could digest what I shared over a few months. Now I'm struggling to feel motivated to sustain the marriage. I get frustrated more easily, am starting to see more things that make me wonder if we're a good match as life partners and keep daydreaming about idealized new relationships. I wonder if I was naive to marry a man who outright told me he didn't believe in marriage and if I ignored his reluctance to help around the house. He used the excuse of a demanding work schedule and our constant moving. Huge new piece of information.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, multiple. She's painted her husband as avoidant and squirrely, but now she's saying he outright told me he didn't believe in marriage. So at least on one huge question, he was very explicit with her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So he might not be totally open with her, but it sounds like she has also failed to take him at his word and played along to some degree.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, and to her credit, she's now starting to acknowledge that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But then why get married? And how do you do that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So then we're back to his stuff and he's saying, I don't want this. And she's saying some version of okay, maybe you don't. Or maybe she's like, I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that. La look, I changed your mind on getting married. Maybe I'll change your mind on kids, some version of that. And then he's like, all right, I'll go along with it and keep my mouth shut because it's too scary to tell her what I actually want. I don't want to rock the boat. I got hockey practice. Bye.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is very stressful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This dynamic is a recipe for disaster. But I think she knows that now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also think that the moving around a lot and the financial and logistical insecurity probably gave them a reason to not talk about a lot of this stuff because they were just trying to survive day to day. But now that they found a town, they want to settle down again. Suddenly it's like, okay, we're stable enough to now acknowledge all of these other things that we had good reasons to avoid up until now. So she goes on. Also, we never lived in an area where we could each pursue our preferred lifestyles. Now that we've settled in a larger town, I'm happy to see my husband pursue his hobbies like hockey, going to the gym, going out with co workers and playing video games with friends. But now my vision of my preferred life feels more distant. I'm left working a full time remote job, pursuing a master's degree, managing the household finances and doing all the cooking and most of the house chores. I enjoy being a traditional wife, but only if there's some shared responsibility. When I started my master's program a year ago, he agreed he would help out more, but that didn't happen. I don't believe in soulmates or the idea that there was only one person out there for everyone. I also believe that marriage is tough and walking away isn't the best answer. But I want a life partner who feels like a partner and envisions a future together, including raising a family.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I don't think it's crazy to want a life partner who wants the same things and shares the same values. Just state the obvious.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also don't think it's crazy to consider whether that person might not be your life partner if they just can't get there with you. So she wraps up. How do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be and stay patient while my husband does some serious soul searching? And what if he says he wants kids and I'm now questioning whether I want his kids signed? Navigating my fate when I and my mate are not on the same page about wanting to procreate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

First of all, I'm very sorry you've been struggling with all this. You've been through a lot here, my friend. All this moving, the financial stress, two abortions, a master's program, running a house, working on your marriage, figuring out your needs and goals and identity. I mean, my goodness, this is very intense. I'm exhausted just hearing about it. There's a lot of sadness and anxiety in this letter. I'm very sorry about that too. But look, these conflicts are in with your husband. I think you can tell I'm frustrated with how he's communicated with you, how he's shown up in your marriage. And that was before the not pitching in around the house stuff. But these really do sound like conflicts you end up in with somebody who's simply not compatible with you. But like we also just said, you're now seeing more clearly you did participate in this dynamic by discounting or ignoring certain facts. He didn't say I don't believe in marriage and you married him. He at least hinted he was on the fence about kids when you wanted them, which I agree is not the best way to communicate his stance. But he did give you some important data about how he felt and you stayed in the marriage. Assuming you guys are moving towards the same future when it sounds like there weren't very many indications that that was true, I also have to point out, I don't mean to be finger waggy here, but I think it needs to be said. You presumably had unprotected sex many times with somebody who you weren't sure you wanted to have kids with. And even if he did want to have kids, it sounds like you did that before you guys were truly in a place to start a family and consciously made that decision together. So again, I don't mean to sound judgy, I don't mean to sound lecture y at all here. I just find that fairly reckless. And then he paid the price. And I'm sure it wasn't fun for him either by having two abortions, one of which was really hard on you. I mean, I don't have to explain that to you. Explain it to us. I'm sure you've already learned a big lesson from all that. I'm not trying to pile on, but in the interest of being totally fair here, I'm coming down hard on your husband. But you had a big role in all this too, and you don't need me to tell you that the stakes here, when it comes to bringing a child into this world, it just doesn't get much higher than that. So we rarely come right out and tell people what to do. But given the facts here, I gotta say I don't have high hopes for the marriage. It doesn't sound like this is your person for life. It doesn't sound like this is the father of your children. Not the one you want anyway. You guys are fundamentally misaligned on some very huge dimensions and I just don't know what you're supposed to do about that. You're also misaligned in your communication. But as we keep saying, you're participating in that dynamic. He might be hiding the ball a lot of the time and acquiescing here and there to keep you happy. That is absolutely on him. But you have also allowed him to do that until very recently anyway, by not pressing the issue, by not appropriately holding his feet to the fire, by not going, look, I don't know where you stand on this topic. I need to fully understand you. Please speak your mind. You. Even if you're worried that it might hurt my feelings. It was only recently that you started holding him to account and not ending the conversation until you have a clear answer, which should have happened a long time before you guys got married, but I'm sure shows up in so many ways in so many conversations, both big and small.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also wonder if her fantasizing about these idealized new relationships and we don't know what she means, are they abstract, idealized new relationships, or is she, like, thinking about people she knows. Unclear. But in addition to being a sign that she's kind of disconnected from her husband and might in fact already be moving on in some way. And also maybe it's a way to enjoy some freedom in a situation where I imagine she feels quite trapped a lot of the time. I wonder if that mental flight is also part of what you're describing, Jordan. That could also be an example of this avoidance and also like a kind of dissociation from the facts. There's a flight of fancy here that would also move her further away from these uncomfortable conversations.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I could see that. I think there's probably a lot happening in that daydreaming. So could you guys work on that communication on your own or in therapy? Sure. Would it help? Maybe, in the sense that hopefully you guys would step into more honesty and understand each other better. But I think what you're ultimately going to get clarity on is the fact that you guys just aren't compatible. And I know that it's like, how am I making that judgment so quickly? Look, I'm not telling you break up with him, but I'm almost telling you that I'm saying I just don't understand how this is the person for you or how you're the person for him. And so how can that relationship succeed?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, the only way that it succeeds is if he wants to go to therapy and then is doing a ton of work on his own and with her to work through his hesitation around having children or his conflicts around partnership, if that's something he actually wants to work on. I don't get the sense that he does.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You mean the guy who didn't even want to go to therapy at all one time, that guy?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. Yeah. So I'm totally with you. I think you're also saying to her, though, you're not the person you were earlier this marriage. Right. You're avoiding less. You're seeing things more clearly. You're becoming more responsible. You're wanting to have these tough but crucial conversations. I think that's part of why you're more easily frustrated now because you're not sweeping as much under the rug or looking the other way. So how can you, as this newer person with new needs and new capacities, stay in this relationship if he isn't also evolving in that direction?

[Jordan Harbinger]

For sure. But again, even if he does meet her there, I'm just not sure that's going to fix their real problems.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I find it curious that she's asking, how do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be? How do I stay patient while my husband does this soul searching?

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is not a question about staying motivated.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So, two interesting things about that statement. First, I agree, if she has to stay motivated to be the wife she wants to be, then clearly there's a deeper problem here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is not a diet, it's not a gym routine. This is her marriage. This is her life.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. These new feelings she's describing, you know, again, getting more frustrated, seeing things that make her wonder if they're a good match. Even the daydreaming, again, sounds like she's viewing those as personal failures somehow or things that she needs to overcome through patience, through sheer will, instead of symptoms of a problem that needs to be addressed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

100%. 100%.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also think she should consider what it means to be the wife she wants to be. It sounds like she has a concept of what a good wife is. She mentioned that she enjoyed being a traditional wife and that is totally fine. But it sounds like coming to terms with the reality of her marriage is making it hard for her to live up to that concept in her mind. So what does it actually mean to be the wife you want to be? Does it mean staying in an unhappy marriage? Does it mean not speaking up when something is difficult for you? Does it mean not asking for help around the house when you're pursuing your master's degree? What does that mean exactly?

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know what's interesting about this is she's like, I don't mind being a traditional wife. And I'm like, wait, you're getting a master's degree, you have a full time job from home and you take care of the house.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Not entirely traditional, no.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What that sounds like to me is you're being a traditional wife and you have a second income and he plays video games and hockey when he comes home from work. So you're just doing everything other than his job, which is one of many issues that they got to deal with. She either needs to reconsider that idea of what a good wife is or that idea is just not working with this particular partner. And my gut is probably both. So, look, if you guys go through this process and your husband's like, you know what? I've worked through all these things. I do want kids. And you're like, oh, I'm not sure I want your kids. First of all, I get the feeling that's pretty unlikely. It just sounds like he doesn't want kids. He doesn't even want to talk about whether he wants kids or not. But if somehow he decides he does. Well, given his history of caving and not speaking up in order to keep you happy, I would want to be very sure that he has actually changed his mind.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But even if he does, that doesn't solve any of the other problems that they have.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No. So the fact that you're questioning whether you want to have kids with him is absolutely appropriate and wise. And I would listen to that feeling. I have been unusually blunt with you. I don't think this is your guy. And given his personality and his goals or lack of goals and how you guys are relating, I would not have children with this person unless you guys go through a profound process. That a leads to both of you growing in some big ways and radically changes his vision for his future in a way that aligns with yours. If you guys aren't aligned, you're not aligned. That's okay. He's not wrong for not wanting marriage or children. You're not wrong for wanting a life partner and kids. The only thing that's wrong is trying to make an impossible relationship work, especially as you get into your 30s. Because you're right. Time is ticking. The stakes are high. And yeah, I know that's stressful, but it is super important to recognize. Thank you for sharing so much with us. Thank you for letting us be honest with you, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. All right, and now we want to knock you up with some highly fecking deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by HomeServe. Owning a home is great until suddenly it is not. It always seems to be the worst timing to deal with a busted pipe or your heater dying during the coldest night of the year. And the problem is, regular homeowners insurance usually doesn't cover a lot of the everyday wear and tear stuff. Plumbing failures, H vac breakdowns, electrical issues, so when something goes wrong, you're often on your own. That's where HomeServe comes in. They offer and administer different plans that cover various home systems, and it's basically like a subscription for your house. Plans start at just499amonth, and if something covered breaks, you call their 24.7hotline and start the repair process. No panic Googling contractors while your house falls apart. We've definitely had those oh no moments like when our H Vac stopped working. HomeServe is the perfect thing I'd use for that peace of mind. They've helped customers for over 20 years with a trusted national network of 2,600 local contractors plus 4.5 million customers. A 4.8 out of 5 post repair rating and an A BBB rating help protect your home systems and your wallet with HomeServe against covered repairs. Plans start at just $4.99 a month. Go to HomeServe.com to find the plan that's right for you. That's HomeServe.com not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month for your first year. Terms apply on covered repairs. This episode is also sponsored by Drip Drop. I'm big on staying hydrated, especially because I work out regularly. I ruck. I sweat a lot in plain water. It doesn't do it for me. I've been using Drip Drop for years. It is doctor Developed proven fast hydration that helps your body and mind work better and I noticed the difference. When I drink it, I have better energy, which makes me in a better mood and more clear. Drip Drop uses a precise ratio of electrolytes and glucose for rapid absorption, delivering three times the electrolytes and half the sugar of leading sports drinks so you feel results fast without that sugar crash. And the best part is it actually tastes good. They've got 16 original flavors eight. Zero sugar options, which I personally kind of prefer so you can stay consistent without loading up on sugar. I keep a bunch of different flavors around and rotate depending on the day. It's become part of my routine to stay super hydrated over here and you can't tell because my voice is totally shop, but it would be a lot worse if I weren't hydrated. Right now Drip Drop is offering podcast listeners 20% off your first order. Go to dripdrop.com and use promo code Jordan. That's dripdrop.com promo code Jordan for 20% off. Stock up [e-mail] and use promo code jordan. I've got homes.com as a sponsor for this episode, homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. To learn more and get links to all the deals you hear on the show, visit jordanharbinger.com deals if that doesn't work, email us jordanordanharbinger.com, we're happy to dig up codes for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It does keep us going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, time for the recommendation of the week.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm addicted to lip filler.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All right, my recommendation for the week is an app called Flighty. This is one of the best apps I've ever used. It's a flight tracker. You basically get an email that says, hey, your Delta flight is booked. You email it to Flighty. It tracks the plane, whether it's on time, what baggage claim to go to, all your seat information. It is incredible. And like it'll tell you, your flight is usually 30 minutes late on average from the airport. It comes in on to this airport, yada yada. I've had this app and I've been at airports where nobody knows what gate it's changed to. It's not on the board, the flight staff at the desk don't know. But it's in my Flighty app. First, I checked into a random flight in an airport in Argentina and the gate agent, she had no idea what gate it was leaving from. And she's like, well, you got to wait for the board sometimes. Flighty was like, it's Gate A. She's like, oh, that sounds right. We leave from there sometimes. Just an amazing app. I'm a big fan. It'll show you the weather patterns. You get a push notification that's like you're taxiing for 18 minutes. You're taking off five minutes late. You're going to arrive 12 minutes early. Like, it's just absolutely nuts. You'll step off the plane, it'll be like baggage claim A. Meanwhile, everybody is just waiting to find out or it changes. And you'll get a push notification for that, too. It's really good. It's way better than any individual airlines app, and it works well with all of them. So I highly recommend it. Again, it's called Flighty. All right, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, speaking of airplanes, we got some very passionate responses to our rant on our end of year episode about people who keep the airplane window shades open when the cabin is supposed to stay dark. That was episode 1262, by the way. So we wanted to share a few of them with you and talk about this because this has kicked off a weirdly interesting debate among you guys about what is okay and what is not okay to do on an airplane.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. And by the way, even though I've been banned from Reddit.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, Hashtag. What is it? Muppet. Muppetgate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yep.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

JusticeforJordan. I'm just saying.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Thank you. I appreciate the solidarity. Anyway, I'm still lurking in the subreddit. I still love hanging out there. I see the funniest stuff in there, you guys.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Reddit.com rjordanharbinger is our subreddit still a great place to chime in on episodes? You can tell us what you like, what you did not like, which you guys really seem to enjoy doing. You can share other opinions on questions we take. I always try to forward the links to the people who write in so that they can get as many angles as possible. So you're not just shouting into the void or talking with eight other people who are interested in this topic. You are really actually often helping the people who write in. And I'm the moderator now, as you guys know, Jordan, sadly, is in Reddit jail, and I also am loving reading your takes, by the way. Jordan, is this like a life sentence or what?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Theoretically, yeah. Banned for life. I'm in the Reddit equivalent of a prison in El Salvador.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Can you appeal or is there a Reddit Supreme Court you could take this to or something?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, apparently not for the cardinal sin of calling an apologist for North Korea a Muppet. I've been put on Internet death row, which is hilarious.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm so sorry, dude. Time to get some prison tats, though. Maybe the Reddit symbol on your back.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Lydia. Lydiaing it up and putting dummies in their place on Reddit was one of my favorite guilty pleasures, I guess you would say. Now I'm just that weirdo standing 100 yards from the action, looking through binoculars.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, like the guy who runs the gas station where they should not shop for a sex toy. Or. Actually, you know what that reminds me of? You like Leo at the end of Catch Me if youf Can. Do you remember the scene where he's standing in the snow staring into his mother's house, like, watching her new family have Christmas together, wishing he could be in there, Literally.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I never thought I'd become Frank Abagnale of Reddit. Wow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So the first take was in the subreddit from redditor monkeymatty2, who writes the airplane window rant on this episode of Feedback Friday was a little obnoxious. Is this something that people actually care about?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yep. Gotta stop you right there, Monkey Maddie. Yes, this is something people actually care about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Boy, do I have a podcast for you, Monkey Maddie.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I love that she heard us go apeshit about people who do this in her first sentences. Is this something people actually care about? Nah, just pretending to be angry about this because we don't have enough to talk about here on the show.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, we didn't have enough dues that week. We got to invent petty Larry David complaints to fill the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, we care about it. Some of us like to sleep on 14 hour overnight flights.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old and we just recently went on our first international family vacation. This was a trip that we saved up for four years to be able to afford, and it really was a once in a lifetime thing for us. My kids were both obsessed with being on an airplane and kept the window up the whole time, just awestruck. I also went on an 80th birthday trip with my grandma and she was very similar and took probably over a hundred pictures of the clouds out of her window.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Man, she's bringing grandma into this. She's gonna make me throw granny under the bus. This is not fair, man. It's not fair.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We don't get to fly very frequently, so it does have a little bit of whimsy to it. I purposely booked the window Seat for the views. And I've also noticed that it helps with motion sickness.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's interesting. I never heard of that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Do people really care if someone else's window is up during a flight? I think we've established this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Don't mean to jump the gun, Gabe, but the fact that it's just so incomprehensible to her that other people might feel differently about this. I hate to say it, but she's making our point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You mean like the window? People don't realize that other people might not like it?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. This is precisely the solipsism that we're talking about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, solipsism. Nice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I think you probably taught me that one.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That sounds like me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ol $5 word when a 50 cent word would do. Mizrahi.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's me, baby. Old gay be dictionaries.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that's what this is, right? This is solipsistic. I want to keep my window open when everybody is sleeping at night. Do people actually care about this? It only matters what I care about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey, man, you're preaching to the choir. But to be fair, let's hear her out, because she's not alone in this, actually. So she goes on, if you are that sensitive to light, bring an eye mask. Am I missing something here?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would say yes. The fact that other people exist and feel differently.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Just that little detail.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, just that little fact. Also, it's not that we are so sensitive to light. It is that any human is sensitive to light that they did not ask for at night.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It just seems like for two guys who. It seems like they try to be very understanding and accepting, this was kind of a wild and pointless rant.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I take umbrage at that, madam.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Umbrage, indeed. Jordan is on his sat vocab today. I'm loving this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, and I would add she's being very insouciant.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Insouciant. That's one of those words I always forget. Like, I think I know what it means, but I'm actually not sure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Indifferent. Basically showing a casual lack of concern.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, well, perfect. That's it. And that's the post.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Also fascinating. Now I'm gonna be solipsistic for a moment. I honestly didn't think there would be that many people who felt differently about this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, but clearly there are, because this debate is still raging today in the subreddit.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, maybe I'm a selfish Muppet. Maybe the mods are right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You might be the Muppet. So then we got this email from a listener regarding your and Gabriel's tirade on airplane etiquette. First, you both drove me crazy referring to open window shades as opening windows, for F sake. Really?

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're gonna be. You're gonna qu. The phrasing. You don't open the window at 30,000ft. You open the window shade. Get it right, guys. Yep. Okay. Sorry. Everybody knew what we meant. Literally everyone.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I can see Jordan's getting angry again.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is what happens when I can't call people Muppets on the Internet. I can't discharge the rage. It comes out on Feedback Friday.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe you can work that into your pitch to the Reddit Supreme Court to be reinstated. Like unbanning me is what's best for society.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's a public service, really.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So the letter goes on. Second, I always have my shade open because I'm claustrophobic. Looking around me at all the closed shades frightens the hell out of me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I can't really argue with that, can I? I can't argue with claustrophobia. I can't argue with motion sickness. Somebody else in the subreddit today mentioned they're deathly afraid of flying and the windows help, so. Okay, I hear that. I really do. That didn't occur to me. And I would rather people not want.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To die on the plane, even if it's dark outside. That open shade means that I won't lose it while we're in the air. You're welcome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm. Well, I know you're welcome, actually, that's how this works.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Third, since when are other people responsible for your comfort?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ah, I could ask the same question in the other direction, couldn't I? Since when are other people responsible for yours by sacrificing their sleep on an overnight flight so you don't get nauseous? We're doing this as a favor for you. That's how this is going.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Since when are you exempt from considering the comfort of everybody else on the floor?

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is why I'm struggling to understand this logic. It's like, no, you don't get it. I get motion sickness. Okay? Yeah, that's a problem. I have sympathy for that. That doesn't trump everyone else's need to sleep. But this is what these people don't understand. It's crazy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She goes on. I don't go around insisting the shades be open because of my claustrophobia.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ah, but that's not the same thing, is it? You don't need every shade open to feel okay, whereas a number of people in your area on the plane do need the shades closed in. Order to sleep and or watch a movie at night in peace. They're not the same thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She wraps up. You want total darkness, Wear a f Cking eye mask. This has been a public service announcement. Signed, feeling the need to upbraid and throw some shade on your need to not open the shades, which, by the way, is different from opening them all the way. The confusion about which has left me irate when I already pray that it's not my fate to end up your unfortunate seatmate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, boy, this is gonna be hard. All right, I'm putting away the anger, deep breathing, putting back on my logic cap. No more bannable insults. Okay? So first things first, you're both wrong. Not really. Look, I'm not convinced. But seriously, first things first. If you have a legit medical problem, motion sickness, claustrophobia, I guess you get a pass. I don't want somebody having, like, vomiting issues or, like, panic attacks.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right, and then they divert the plane because somebody's free.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And that kind of makes me feel bad because how would you know if somebody who's leaving their window shade open has a legit medical reason? Like, we might be judging people who just need it to be okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I've asked people to close the shades before, as you know. And if I asked someone to close the shade and they were like, I'm really sorry, but I'm gonna freak out if I don't keep this open. I'm not gonna be like, sorry, you gotta think about everyone else. I'm not a monster, despite what my Reddit history suggests. But I have to imagine that most people who keep the window shade open are you happy. I assume most of them don't have a real medical issue. And also, hey, maybe Papa Xanax for your anxiety disorder. That's what you have if you have to keep this open or you have panic attacks and lose your mind.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Thank you for that. Now I gotta read 18 emails when people are gonna say that you're forcing them to take pills because you want to take a nap. That's my problem now?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sorry, Gabe, that is your job. First line of defense for the hate.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Mail, Sheriff of the subreddit, volunteer positions, both of them. Also, I just want to remind everyone this window shade rant. We were only talking about long haul flights where people are going to be sleeping and the sun is going to be out the whole time. I don't care if people keep the window shades open on a flight from Charleston to Miami or whatever. I'm not trying to be a window Nazi, like, for fun. Just to be difficult.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, I think people are conveniently forgetting that. Or they didn't. Listen carefully. The pilot or the flight attendant literally comes on the PA and says, keep the window shades closed. We're flying for 12 hours. People are going to sleep. That's why this is a thing. It's a rule. And that said, look, kids, you get a little bit of a pass up to a point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I do agree with that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I'm not gonna yell at a four year old for wanting to look out the window on their first plane ride. I'm not a total dick.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I might silently get frustrated.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But yeah, it helps if they're actually enjoying the view, not just opening it. Cause they like a little light and then forgot which is the guy on your flight who opened it and then was like, I'm gonna go to sleep now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Opened the shade and then fell asleep. So he wasn't even enjoying the view. That's what I don't understand.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Even the people who are like the worst haters of me right now for this take, even they got to admit that that's dumb and rude.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It also, by the way, helps if the person is nice. Being nice goes a long way in my book.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For sure. If I said something to the first listener and she nicely explained that her kids are having their first international flight and they wanted to enjoy the view, I'd be like, okay, I hear you. Hey, if you don't mind, can you close it in a bit when they're not looking out the window just so everybody else can rest? That is totally different from the meat smuggler on my flight from China.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Alleged meat smuggler.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, alleged meat smuggler because I framed him because I was the Muppet back end, but that guy was an a hole. If you're cool, I'm cool. Or at least cooler.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But okay, let's say that if you book the window seat, you do control the window shade, which is what a lot of people are arguing. And that's just how it is. Fine. Can you enjoy it during takeoff and landing? Can you enjoy it for 20 minutes here and there? Take, take your 600 pictures of clouds that I promise you you will never look at again. And then can you close it like it's not the Mona Lisa? It's clouds or ocean or fields or whatever, over and over again. Do you need to stare at them for six hours at three in the morning while everyone's trying to sleep? I don't think so.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Again, though, I'm a parent. I get it. Kids get a pass with these things. And despite my general tone and our friend here's a rather insouciant one, I might add. I'm sure you and your family are very nice people. I understand your kids have an opportunity to enjoy the miracle of flight. I'm with them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Of course. Now I feel like a dick for being mad at children, but don't they also have an opportunity to learn that they are not flying private?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. That they're sharing the flight? Yeah. There's a reason I tell my son not to yell and scream on the plane because we're not the only ones there.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They want to look out the window. And other people want to do other things like get home not brutally exhausted or watch uncut gems at 30,000ft without the glare of a thousand suns ruining the picture.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's another thing. The person in the second letter is bring an eye mask. Which like, fine, that's helpful but.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And I do always bring mine. But that's not really the point, is it?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, this isn't just about people sleeping, watching a movie, reading a book, or even just having a conversation in a dark cabin. All of those also get disrupted when one person opens their window shade.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's very jarring, as evidenced by the photo somebody posted in our subreddit today of a perfectly dark cabin and a stabbing pin of light ruining the entire cabin from one person's window.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's so jarring and suddenly 17 people in the area are forced to endure a frickin generational eclipse. So it's missing the point to say it's your faul fault for not bringing an eye mask. I have one. It's just that it's not going to block all the light and everyone else has to bring one so that you can look out the window. Like everyone else has to prepare for you to not follow the rules.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So this is really what this debate is about for me. How to negotiate the balance between one's own interests and those of other people when you're in public.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, the eternal question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The eternal question. Look, I concede that booking the window seat grants you a certain privilege, but at a minimum you have to admit that the enjoyment of that privilege has an impact on everyone else. When almost every other passenger is sleeping or watching a movie. Especially on a long haul flight, one passenger's whimsical window experience is a pretty clear impingement on everyone else. Like it's not just me. I've seen other people get angry about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In all the cases we are referring to with our take here, it violates the explicit request of the flight staff on the flight.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. So are we saying that one of the privileges of buying a window seat is that it exempts you from being thoughtful about other people and respectful of the rules?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I feel like if you took that argument to its logical conclusion, it's, I booked the window seat, so I'm allowed to do whatever makes me happy, even if it bothers everyone else. Open a can of tuna while you're at it. Have some lunch.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Good analogy. Which. That is what some of these folks are saying, right? Someone in the comments said, and I quote, the way I see it with most airlines, I paid extra for that window seat. The window is mine to control. That's what I paid extra for.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So if that's how you view it, I guess we can't argue with you. I just don't look at life that way. I try to be considerate. Yeah, I guess you're exempt from that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have another analogy. I always book an aisle seat because I have long legs, right? I like to get up. I like to stretch a lot during the flight. I don't like being boxed in. That's what I like. Which means I often have to get up to let the people in the middle seat and the window seat out. Right. Sometimes they even wake me up when I'm sleeping to go do that. That's unpleasant, but I don't get angry about it. I'm not saying, like, well, I bought the aisle seat and I paid extra for it, so my use of the aisle is all that matters. And everybody else can go fly a kite because that's not the case. We're all sharing the flight and we're all equally real. So why should it be any different for the window sea people?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting argument. I feel like the people who wrote in would say that's not a true analogy because window does not equal aisle. They're different privileges or something. They're going to find a way to carve themselves out of this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They're different privileges, but they're equivalent in that they both confer unique benefits that are important to the person who's enjoying them that you pay extra for. And the way that you enjoy them has an impact on everybody else. And those people do not have much of a say in how you enjoy them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point. Can't really argue with that. But look, I appreciate that you're pointing out that we are generally pretty understanding people. And then we eviscerated these window shade people. And I hear that if we were being more compassionate, I might have Said, okay, this guy wasn't malicious, he was just clueless. And he doesn't deserve our hatred, just our gentle criticism. For all we know, he'd feel bad about ruining everyone's sleep. And that's a fair point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is a fair point. But I would also argue that we were not being unempathetic. We were directing our empathy to everybody else in that situation, I. E. The many other people this guy affected with his thoughtlessness.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But then the loop I get stuck in is I honestly can't decide whether unself aware people deserve to be let off the hook. Because yeah, how can you be held accountable for something you weren't even aware of? But then being self aware in this very basic way, it's also just part of being a decent human being.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I fully agree. At a certain point you just have to acknowledge the unfortunate fact that you are not the only person who exists in economy class.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But then the people who wrote in would say, exactly, we exist too, so why should we have to give up our thing for everyone else?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think what we're saying is you don't have to entirely give it up. Can you just factor other people in? Like you get a little window time and I get my sleep sound like that's all we're saying.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Another analogy just occurred to me. If you're on the subway and somebody starts blasting their Bluetooth speaker and you ask them not to, and they're like, hey, look, sorry, I have a sensory disorder or I'm autistic, or I can't wear headphones, the sensation bothers me. I need music to self regulate. So they blast their speaker on the subway or at a restaurant and their argument is, why am I responsible for other people's comfort? Just wear earplugs or wear your own AirPods if you don't like it. Yes, your autism or sensory disorder or whatever it is is real. Of course I understand that. But you're not the only other person on the flight. Our thing is also real. And your fulfillment of your need, your enjoyment of your benefit, that has a negative externality for everyone else.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Multiple other people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, there are more of us, so like it or not, you got to adapt. Unless you just don't care about anybody but yourself.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I totally agree. I also understand that a true disability does change the situation though.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, okay, yes and no. I understand. Some people on the spectrum, for example, have certain unique needs or triggers, just like our friends who have claustrophobia, motion sickness, fear of flying. But they also have to function in a world with Many more people who do not have those triggers. So I think most people would agree with that. It is unreasonable to impose the requirements of those needs on everyone else, even if we sometimes make certain accommodations for them. And that's for people who have a true condition or disorder. Why should it be different for people who just have a preference? It's like, I want to look at the clouds.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Screw you, dude. Excellent point. Well said.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I guess our opponents here on this issue would say, because that preference is not only legit, but also explicitly part of the experience of the service we paid for.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, so just to take your analogy one step further, if you're at a public park and there is a group blasting their shitty music or whatever, and it's bothering everybody else, they could say, sorry, I pay my taxes, I'm allowed to blast my music at the park. Okay, you might be allowed to blast your music, but A, that doesn't mean that it is incredibly annoying to everybody else. And B, I also pay my taxes and I want to enjoy silence. So why does your noise trump my silence?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. And your music isn't confined to your picnic basket, just like the light from your window is not confined to your seat.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Just, just if you open tuna, that smell is not confined to your area. So yeah, if I were in the minority here, I would play by these same rules myself. Happily. Also, this just occurred to me. Part of what grinds my gears about this is that keeping the cabin dark and opening a window shade are not actually equivalent. They serve very different purposes. Keeping the cabin dark on a long haul flight allows the majority of people on the flight to do whatever they want in the dark. Except look out the window, of course. Whereas opening a window shade allows the minority of people, sometimes just one person, to do one thing specifically, that only benefits them and also detracts from the majority's ability to do their thing. So keeping the cabin dark on a long haul flight when it's sunny out, it is actually the fairer thing to do, both from like a utilitarian standpoint and also from a democratic one, because it's not prescribing a particular experience. Do you see what I'm saying? It's allowing for multiple ones. And I'm sure we could all agree that that is the more just scenario. Even if you enjoy the view.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see that philosophy degree is coming in handy, Gabe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's all I have to say on this matter. I'm done.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think I'm also probably going to be. Well, no, I'm not. We could argue this until the cows come home. And I guess you can go around and around in circles. But to close out, I want to read just one more post in our subreddit that made me laugh. So. January 477 writes, Dear Jordan and Gabe, adding a new level of annoyance with people keeping the shade open on a plane. Last week I was on a flight. It was a short flight, probably nobody was trying to sleep much, but. But only one shade was open to the Florida sunset. What made this one special? The lady in the seat was wearing a rhinestone cowboy hat, creating a disco ball effect in the cabin for the entire two hours to Pennsylvania. I had no idea this was an annoyance of mine. Still love Yin's, but thanks for that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This made me laugh so hard. Also, Yin's. I had never heard of that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Me neither. So I had to look it up. Apparently, Yin's is slang from Western Pennsylvania, so, like Pittsburghese. It's basically their version of y' all. Anyway. So ridiculous. That would be fun, right? Because it's like you're during a day. It's two hours. Who cares? You got a rhinestone effect.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I honestly don't know if the rhinestone cowboy hat makes this better or worse.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, on the one hand, worse, right? Because not only has she opened the window, but she's basically turned the entire plane into a lava lamp, kaleidoscope or whatever.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, this lady's basically the magnifying glass lighting the rest of the passenger ants on fire.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But on the other hand, if you're.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Going to do it, I mean, way to create a vibe, I guess.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. And give you a funny story. And it was during the day, so it sounds like it was inconsequential. I can't wait for all the hate mail we're gonna receive for going hard in the paint on this one, which means all the hate mail, Gabe's gonna.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Have to deal with yet another impingement. We did not ask for this, guys, okay? We are just truth tellers. You understand?

[Jordan Harbinger]

People get fired up about this. Look, you think we're fired up. There are people in Reddit that are like, I'm unsubscribing because of how entitled you are about the window shade thing. And it's okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

See you later. Somebody called us. What was it entitled? Boomers, which is just factually inaccurate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's like, I'm not gonna listen to you for a while. And it's like, are you sure? Because that's a little unhinged.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I hope he's hearing this right now, being like, I guess I didn't.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I might have jumped the gun on that one. And yeah, now we love you. We hope you come back to the show. But for real, dude, chill out. And we should do the same. But maybe this is better than being on Reddit, man. Over there, I get punished for saying the true thing right now. I, you know, kind of just can.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Go off interesting because I don't know, it violates the explicit rules and affects other people. Look at that. What a concept.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Facts. And I have to accept them because I'm a reasonable human being most of the time. Go back and check out our episode with Jamie Mustard and our out of the Loop on Venezuela if you haven't heard those yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our course, six Minute Networking. It's a free course. I don't need your credit card number. It's not schmoozy. It's not awkward. You can find it on the thinkific [e-mail] the drills really take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty. People build relationships before you need them. You can find it [e-mail] advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show on the [e-mail] deals I'm ordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram. Gabriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Baggott's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time you're about to hear a preview with Ken Burns, who says the real American Revolution wasn't a clean break from Britain, but a messy, violent civil war whose contradictions we revolution are still debugging 250 years later. A good story neutralizes the binary yes and no. You know, you're bad. Left, right, young, old, rich, poor. Whatever the dialectic is you're involved in, a good story can sort of neutralize it and go, oh, wow, I didn't know that. There's no test we'd share with you our process of discovery. So all the stuff I've said about the revolution, I had no idea going in. And I am so overwhelmed with the joy of acquiring it that giving it away feels even better. The ideas are really, really powerful at the heart of this, the idea that you could be a citizen, that you could have a say in your government after your family has worked the land for a thousand years for somebody else, and all of a sudden you come here and you own some land and farm and you can do this and literate. Democracy is a really messy form of government, but it's better than all the other forms because the other forms involve a kind of tyranny or authoritarian certainty. Democracy is messy because you actually have to listen to people that you disagree with and you have to compromise. When that breaks down, then you lose the possibility of having it. America comes out of violence. It's born in violence. What would you guys do? What would I do? Would I be a loyalist?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Would I be a patriot?

[Jordan Harbinger]

What would I be willing to fight for? What would I be willing to give my life and all that I've accumulated in my life, my fortune? Would I do that? We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. For more on what else we've been getting wrong about our own origin story, check out episode 1238 with Ken Burns. This episode forces you to confront the version of America you didn't learn in school.