B (2:28)

Hey Jordan and Gabe. More than 22 years ago when I was 22, I made a serious mistake and had a relationship with someone who was 17. I took responsibility, served two years in prison, completed 10 years of parole, and have lived with the consequences every single day since. When I was released, the only work I could get was washing cars in the winter. I slowly rebuilt my life from nothing, eventually starting my own company from the ground up. Today that company employs over 130 people and is one of the 10 largest in our industry.

A (3:01)

Wow. That is a journey to go from prison for what I assume was statutory rape, which is so intense. To have your life fall apart to then washing cars to starting a company that becomes one of the 10 largest in your space. I'm sure that many people listening will have some feelings about this past, but man, rebuilding your life in this way is a huge accomplishment.

B (3:18)

Despite the progress I've made, this part of my history still haunts me. Recently I had a personal conflict with my business partner. We've been best friends for years. He recently got into a relationship and his girlfriend didn't like how much time we were spending together, so he started to push me out of his life. I felt like I lost my best friend, but he kept pushing me away until I had enough and we had a huge argument about it. I asked multiple times to talk about it, but he always said he wasn't ready. Finally, I asked if I needed to get an attorney because I was worried he was doing something to get me out of the company. He said he needed time and I told him that time is something I can give him. I just didn't want to know that he was planning something behind my back. He finally told me that he was ready to talk. That's when he offered me a buyout at a fraction of what my ownership was worth. He has now used my past against me, saying that if anyone knew about my background, our reputation and business would be damaged. Of course, he's known about my past since day one with no issue ever. I've always tried to live in a way that when people did find out, they wouldn't believe it. Basically, he's using that as an argument to get me out. But the real reason is our personal issues that he refuses to talk about.

A (4:29)

Just to be clear, these personal issues are that his girlfriend doesn't like how much time they've been spending together.

B (4:35)

What? That's what he's saying. But since his partner isn't being totally open with him, I do wonder if there's more to it than that.

A (4:41)

It's hard for me to believe that a best friend and business partner of many years would just turn on a dime like that just to please a girlfriend who doesn't like how much time they're spending together with the his business partner. I mean, I guess it wouldn't be the first time a partner has changed someone's opinion of somebody else. So maybe it is that simple. My goodness.

B (4:57)

Even if it is, there might be other issues around that conflict that added to it in some way.

A (5:01)

I mean, I want to believe that he would have told us what those were if he knew what they were considering. He told us that he went to prison for sleeping with a minor. So he's not exactly hiding the ball here.

B (5:09)

I refuse the offer since he does the admin and accounting side of the business. He quote, unquote, fired me and told everyone in our remote company that I'm gone. Even though I'm a 50% partner. We didn't have an operating agreement because we were best friends.

A (5:24)

That complicates things.

B (5:25)

I've lost access to the company I helped build, I am not receiving a paycheck, and I'm incurring significant legal costs while we work through these issues. Meanwhile, he has everything and I need to provide for my family.

A (5:38)

This is brutal. Oh, I'm so sorry.

B (5:41)

It feels like I got kicked in the gut once again from my past and now when I'm on the floor, I just keep on getting hit. I've built a great reputation in my industry, but good lord, I'm just tired of constantly being the hero when I'm building a company and making everyone money just to get the rug pulled away from me when they want more. This has happened multiple times in the past 22 years. For example, I've had customers who wanted out of their contracts threaten to make my past public and quote, unquote, ruin my reputation. I've had business partners who loved building a company on my back until it got to a self sufficient point and then use this to get me out over and over again. It happens just like it is now. I just want someone who can appreciate what I bring to the table and isn't driven by greed.

A (6:23)

Wow, fascinating. So this is a real pattern.

B (6:26)

I know what I did 22 years ago. I've met the guys who need to be locked up for a long time and are still a danger to society. That's not me. But I can't get off the registry because the judge decided it that day.

A (6:37)

So brutal to own that you made a huge mistake when you were young to be lumped in with actual monsters when your circumstances were different. And you've done so much to rehabilitate and build a different life.

B (6:47)

Must be crazy making.

A (6:48)

Yeah, man. The stress and shame that this guy must carry around. I honestly, I don't know if I'd be able to get out of bed in the morning, let alone build a top 10 company in my industry.

B (6:56)

Now I'm looking for another job, starting over yet again, and it's exhausting. As I talk to new companies, should I tell them my background and once again relive something that happened 22 years ago? Signed, shaken, and aghast at the thought of dredging up the past when I've been put on blast after a lifetime of being typecast.

A (7:15)

Wow, what a saga. So, look, I'm sure some people listening are going to be turned off by this guy's past. I get that. I'm also hearing that he's done his time and really put in the work in a number of ways to be a very different person. He was 22 when he did this. She was four or five years younger. He is a family now. I just. I believe in that kind of evolution and second chances. I do. But also, let's put aside the details of the crime and just focus on how do you recover from something like this? And I just want to acknowledge this is a major blow. I'm so sorry things played out this way, man. I can hear how hurt and demoralized you are in your letter and how scared you're responsible for your family. This is a terrible loss and it just sucks. So we wanted to get a couple experts in here to advise. The first person we talked to was Corbin Payne, defense attorney and friend of the show Dun Dun. And the first thing Corbin said was, in his experience, ex cons are generally viewed with suspicion and a lack of sympathy by the legal system in the wider world. And because we as a society are primed to view ex cons with both suspicion and contempt, people like your former business partner, they can often justify their actions as you deserving it, and they can do so pretty easily. So Corbin had some tactical advice for you. First, from now on, when you start a business, you need to document, document, document. Never again start a business without an operating agreement or partnership agreement or something like that. Never take a job without something in writing laying out what the compensation looks like, what your job description and duties are, what protections you're entitled to, what your equity is. That is essential. If the other party drags their feet, then Corbyn said, at the very least, send a CYA email laying out your understanding of these facts and ask them if that's also their understanding. If they confirm, great. If they don't reply at all, that's essentially confirmation. If they deny, then at least you have clarity. And second, and I assume you're already doing this if you're suing your partner for your share of the business, bring a ton of documentation to your case. Dates, history, contributions, major conversations, all of it.

B (9:06)

But look, it sounds like you might be facing a timeline where this company is sadly taken away from you or where you decide not to fight for it. And I'm sure that'll be a process of coming to terms with that. Financially, emotionally, that's a whole other conversation. But if that's where this is heading, Corbin made an interesting point. He said that if your ex partner is acting like there was no agreement between you two, then you're probably free to venture out on your own and poach clients and employees from the old company. Now if there's a separate non compete, non solicitation, non disparagement agreement, then that changes things. But it doesn't sound like there was. Now is that going to work? Impossible for us to say, of course. Corbin said that it might be worth it to you to throw down with your ex partner. Or it might not be. That's something you might want to sit with and decide. But from a legal perspective, Corbin said that it would be completely two faced for your ex partner to argue that you are entitled to nothing in the company, that you have no status there, and that you owe some degree of loyalty to the company such that you shouldn't be allowed to go out and compete against him. So in a crazy way, this guy might be doing you a favor here, giving you one potential advantage in a really bad situation, especially for a very driven self starter like you.

A (10:14)

And you probably have a better shot at this than you think. In Corbin's experience, and I totally agree with him here, customers rarely do business with a company they do business with people, and in most cases, they don't have a clue about who's in the office doing admin or who owns the company. They just know the guys or gals who are actually interacting with them to do the thing they contracted y' all for. And that's a huge advantage. Corbin said that he's seen this happen before where a business owner felt an employee was getting too big for their britches. They kicked that employee out for ego reasons, and then the employee walked away with their clients and just ate their former employer's lunch. We'd love this outcome for you, but only you can decide if the rewards outweigh the risks.

B (10:49)

Yes, but this approach is going to be an uphill battle. It absolutely will be a fight. No doubt about it.

A (10:54)

Yeah, his ex partner's not going to take this lying down.

B (10:56)

I mean, at the very least, he's probably going to go out and tell every defecting client that you're, you know, a child raping scumbag whom you know they should absolutely not do business with. So you'll need to have a plan in place for dealing with that. You probably need to at least consider getting ahead of those rumors by disclosing them in advance.

A (11:12)

Yeah, I'm glad Corbin brought this up, because it's exactly where my mind went when we read this letter.

B (11:17)

This might, in fact be a story about what it means to fully own a story.

A (11:21)

There's a pattern here of people using his past against him. Right. But that leverage only exists because he's guarding it. Right. So is the answer stop guarding it? Maybe.

B (11:30)

It's an interesting strategy. I also get why it's a terrifying one for him, of course.

A (11:34)

But it's also an interesting question, which is more terrifying. Coming out and saying, here's what I did when I was a very different person. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Or walking around with this freaking sword of Damocles hanging over your head because you're constantly worried someone's going to find out your past and weaponize it against you.

B (11:49)

It's a very good question. So that was Corbin's idea, maybe being more forthcoming with your story and also making it clear to people that your ex partner didn't have a problem with your past until he decided he wanted all the money.

A (12:00)

Exactly. Or until his girlfriend turned him against you, assuming that's even what happened.

B (12:04)

But it sounds like you might need to get a job in the meantime. So let's quickly talk about how to talk about your background with new companies. We ran that Question by Joanna Tate, friend of the show. HR professional for over 20 years. And Joanna was very clear she would not advise you to come right out and tell employers about your past. And the reason is when you get an offer, a company should explain their pre employment process. You know, drug screen, background check, whatever they require. The Federal Fair Credit Reporting act, the fcra, protects job candidates from discrimination when an employer uses one of these third party background reporting services. And it prevents employers from asking you about your criminal history before interviewing you before offering you a job.

A (12:42)

And the idea is to allow you to get a fair interview and assessment of your abilities, regardless of your criminal history.

B (12:48)

So if the company uses a third party to obtain any kind of report, your company has to let you know in advance in writing, and you have to give your permission also in writing. So the job offer is contingent upon, quote, unquote, passing the background report. And if the employer decides that there's something on the report that poses a liability or is against their standards, they have to notify you that the job offer is on hold. Joanna said that you are then given a reasonable amount of time, sometimes it's like five days to respond, to provide proof if there are any errors or issues, and then the employer will decide whether to move forward. So Joanna's advice, you should prepare in advance for this time. The way this would go is you'd get an offer, you would decide if you want to accept it, the pre employment process would begin and you should ask what their hiring standards are, what they're looking for. They might say that they disqualify all candidates with felonies, or they might say that it depends on the charge and how long ago it was and what the severity was. That's when you can say that you have a felony on your record from 22 years ago, that it's in the past, that you have no other charges, that your conduct from that point forward has been totally on the up and up, right?

A (13:50)

And her advice there is be honest about it, but you don't need to get into the gory details. Be factual, be brief, and to support you in case you need it. She would gather all the documentation you can that shows that one, you are 22 years old in a relationship with a 17 year old. There were no other charges against you with other minors. This is limited to the one relationship and any other details that would benefit your story. Also, she would advise having a conversation with three people who can give you a great reference and speak positively about your background skills. Professionals and people who, if they Absolutely need to. Could include facts that would corroborate your story. If two of them are former managers, that's ideal. No relatives, obviously.

B (14:27)

So bottom get the offer, make them fall in love with you, and then deal with this piece of your backstory if necessary.

A (14:33)

Solid advice. That could still create an obstacle. I think you know that, but it's better than shooting yourself in the foot from the jump. Another idea we had was can you try to get off the registry somehow? We ran that by Corbin too. He said there's basically two ways off the registry. One, an appeal showing there were serious deficiencies in the trial, or proof of your actual innocence. That method does not apply. Option two is you fulfill some requirements laid out in the registry statute or within a related statute. If this crime was regarded as low level, sufficient time has passed, you've maintained a clean record. Some states might allow it, but I'm assuming you would have done that already if it were possible. In Corbyn's experience, a lot of states view any form of statutory rape as an offense that keeps someone on the registry for their whole life. No ifs, ands or buts. Getting off of it is becoming rarer and we just, I don't know, we don't know what your state's laws are.

B (15:20)

So this letter might in fact be about whether to fully own his story and what that would mean for him, for his career, for his whole sense of self. Honestly, Corbin made a really good point. He said that he even though society is not generally very sympathetic to ex cons, attitudes are changing at least a little with some people. To quote him here, if you're constantly getting blackmailed over this conviction, it might be time to lean into that responsibly.

A (15:42)

It might be interesting for our friend here to go back and listen to my interview with Owen Hanson. That was episode 1231 and Cosmortee, that was episode 103. Also Justin Paperni, episode 226. All great examples of guys who incorporated their prison experiences into their personal brands and created very different outcomes.

B (16:00)

Look, we're hearing from a guy who does not shy away from taking accountability for what he did, right? He's not publicizing it, but he has been very intentional about learning and growing, being an upstanding person who's very different from his 22 year old self. So I do wonder whether being upfront with people about his past would be the last mile, so to speak, in taking full accountability here.

A (16:20)

Right? There's some connection to Jocko Willink's extreme ownership idea in here too. Episode 608, by the way. Another good one for you.

B (16:27)

So Corbin respectfully suggested not referring to this whole event as a mistake. We know what you mean. It was a transgression. It went against your character. It doesn't reflect who you are now. Totally get it. But Corbin pointed out that when most people hear mistake, they think accident. And if you were really out there referring to your relationship with a 17 year old as an accident, you might get understandably judged or written off because of that. Whereas you could talk about how you had a moment when you were 22 where you listened to your hormones over your conscience and you made a decision that landed you in prison and that's haunted you ever since.

A (17:00)

Right. That's a different narrative and so a different experience for the audience.

B (17:05)

You know, Jordan, I can't stop thinking about the interview you just did with Joe Loya.

A (17:09)

Yeah, interesting parallel.

B (17:10)

I was very moved by that guy's story. And not just moved, but, like, genuinely invested in him, despite the fact that he did a lot of awful things when he was younger. I was listening to the interview and I was asking myself, like, why am I rooting for this guy so hard? Yeah. And I think it was a few things. One of them is his backstory. Right. The childhood he had, what his father did to him, his background. It's hard not to empathize with somebody who was very badly hurt when they were young.

A (17:33)

Right. Or at least understand them.

B (17:35)

Or at least understand what the roots of it are. Exactly. Another thing, though, was his extreme ownership. To your point, he wasn't justifying his crimes. He wasn't hiding the ball. He wasn't editing around certain inconvenient facts. The other thing is just his personality and his style. He's gracious, he's gentle now. He's reflective.

A (17:53)

Yeah. He could be funny.

B (17:55)

Yeah, yeah, funny always helps. And he has a long history of living by very different values in service of very different experiences, just like our friend here. So, like, how do you not root for that person even if you know what they did? It's almost impossible.

A (18:07)

I know. You can almost reverse engineer a playbook from that interview for creating a personal narrative that gets people to root for you. So, yeah, Joe Loya, he might be the perfect model for our friend here. Episodes 1264 and 1265, by the way, just shamelessly plug in the library on this one.

B (18:21)

I think we should also talk about this pattern he has of working with people who end up using his past against him. I think there's probably more for him to know about how that gets created.

A (18:29)

I had the same thought, like, there's more to that story.

B (18:32)

He's saying, I'm tired of constantly being the hero when I'm building a company, making everyone money just to get the rug pulled out for me. When they want more.

A (18:38)

Right. I just want somebody who can appreciate what I can bring to the table and isn't driven by greed. I mean, that's not a totally ridiculous request.

B (18:45)

I can understand why that feels like the narrative that he is living with.

A (18:48)

Yeah, he has to dig deeper than that, though, if he really wants to have more control here.

B (18:53)

He has to, because he is the hero in the story, as he put it. So what kinds of business partners is he choosing? You know, like, what kinds of customers does he tend to work with? What do these people have in common? Are they, in fact, greedy people? Do they maybe underappreciate what he brings to the table? Did he clock those qualities early on?

A (19:10)

Why isn't he putting certain protections in place, like a partnership agreement?

B (19:14)

Is it because he naively trusts people? Is it because maybe he's afraid of conflict or afraid of signaling to a new partner that their partnership might hit the skids one day?

A (19:23)

He might also be so exuberant about the start of a new business that he doesn't want to deal with certain details. That's very common.

B (19:29)

Good point. I also wonder if he doesn't feel that he can push for those protections because of his past, because he already feels that he's starting with the chips down, so he kind of just needs to take what he can get and be grateful and just pray that it all works out.

A (19:41)

That's a really interesting theory. I would not be surprised if that's playing a role in all this, because I think a lot of the patterns in our lives are informed in part by what we believe we deserve, which.

B (19:51)

Might be another reason to consider fully owning his story. I am starting to wonder if the leverage that people have over him doesn't just come into play when they want to take something from him. I wonder if it's already in the mix on his side of the equation from the moment they begin together. And that might inform the mindset in which he meets people. How he negotiates for what he wants, how he protects himself.

A (20:12)

Also, how is he showing up in these partnerships along the way? That must be part of the pattern too, right? Business breakups, they don't happen by accident. I don't think all these partners woke up one day like, today is the day I'll steal The company from Pete. Cause I feel like it. That's not how this goes.

B (20:26)

Just cause Annie thinks we're playing basketball too much. It's time to change. Yeah.

A (20:29)

Yeah. What I want to know is what conflicts came up leading up to being pushed out. How did he handle those conflicts? Did he inadvertently give these partners ammo to push him out somehow? Or reasons to justify these obviously selfish decisions? Or reasons not to invest in him and his story in some kind of lasting way?

B (20:46)

All excellent questions, especially in light of that one detail. When he said that things came to a head and then he kind of exploded at his partner. And I don't know exactly how that played out. I'm not saying it's all his fault, but does his anger play a role in this? Is it hard for him to really get people to be honest with him? I just. There's so much more about the relationship that is probably.

A (21:05)

I mean, you slam a guy's head through some drywall, no big deal, right? No, I'm kidding.

B (21:08)

As long as you have an operating agreement.

A (21:10)

That's right. No, I want to be clear, though. That previous thing that I mentioned before, I'm not blaming him entirely. It's possible that he. It's possible this was always these people's plan, or it occurred to them that they could do it and get away with it, or that they would have done it anyway, somehow. I mean, I'm not trying to say like, this is your fault.

B (21:26)

It's also true that he has a talent for building businesses that are worth stealing.

A (21:29)

So there's that. Yeah. Look on the bright side. You build businesses that people want to take from you. Right? That's what's so complicated about all this. But I'm with you, Gabe. We can't hear a story like this and not give him the gift of being like, hold up. What these people did to you absolutely sucks. They stole from you, they blackmailed you, they compromised you and your family. And you were there, too. So if you really want to shift these dynamics, if you want to do everything you can to prevent this from happening again, then you have to work to widen the aperture here so you can appreciate your role in all this, whatever it might be.

B (21:58)

Well said. And that can be painful to acknowledge. It's hard.

A (22:02)

Yeah. But it's also the only truly empowering stance here. Look, he can only. He can figure out if this is true. He gets to decide which pieces of this problem he wants to own. But what this loss is teaching him, I think why it might have had to happen in some sense is to a force him to look at certain qualities of his and B push him to revisit his relationship with his story. Easy for us to say over here without stolen businesses or criminal histories. I mean, actually I do. I only have one stolen business, so I guess I know whereof I speak on that front to some degree, but no felonies in my past. Still, it's essential to at least consider this so I know how scary and hurtful this experience must be. But try to stay open to what this situation is showing you. Take the hit necessary to enjoy the growth, to learn to tell a new story. And we're rooting for you, man. Good luck. You know what you can put your hands on without getting charged with a felony. The fine, products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Kape. Most of us don't think about our mobile carrier, but maybe we should. Companies like AT&T, Verizon and T Mobile have been in the news again and again for data breaches and selling customer data. And even if you use VPNs and encrypted apps, those don't protect you at the network level, where attacks like sim swaps and silent tracking actually happen. That's why I was glad to discover Kape. Kape is a secure mobile carrier. Same idea as the big guys, but built from the ground up, with privacy and security as the default. So when you sign up, they don't ask for your name, address or Social Security number. They collect almost nothing, which means there's nothing to leak, nothing to sell. They also protect against sim swaps by removing humans from the process entirely. Nobody can move your number without a private phrase that only you have. They encrypt your voicemail, block suspicious network activity, and secure the cellular layer that most privacy tools can't even touch. Cape is run by experts in telecom and cybersecurity, vetted by leaders in the space, and they actually operate their own mobile core. No other US carrier does that. If privacy matters to you, this is worth a look. Get 33% off for six months at Cape Co Jordan Harbinger with code Jordan33. That's Cape Co JordanHarbinger code Jordan33 for 33% off. This episode is also sponsored by COVPure. If you're doing the whole New year, healthier me thing, here's the most basic truth that people skip. Your body is mostly water. So yeah, hydration matters. But the real issue isn't just drinking more water. It's what's in the water now because these days there's a lot of stuff we'd all rather microplastics, pharmaceutical residue and other contaminants. And the good news is you don't have to overthink it. A solid, high quality filter can make a huge difference. Kind of a water nerd. Or at least I used to be. And I use and recommend CovePure. It's an easy way to make sure the water you're drinking is actually clean. Their Clearwave technology is certified to remove up to 99.9% of contaminants. It's super simple to set up. No drilling, there's no plumber. It just sits right there on the countertop. And the features are great. It has size presets so I can just tap the 16 ounce button to refill my water jug. It makes staying hydrated really easy. You can also choose hot cold, warm water instantly. Jen makes tea every day and doesn't have to boil water separately anymore. Clean water matters more than ever. If we're going to do a reset, let's start with a thing your body is literally made of better water with Covpure. Cove Pure makes it so easy to get pure water with the push of a button. So this year, make a New Year's resolution that sticks. Improve your health with clean water. Right now you can get $200 off for a limited time if you use our link cove.comharbinger that's C O V E P U R E dot com harbinger to start this new year right. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support this podcast are searchable and clickable on the website@jordan harbinger.com deals please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday alright, next up.

B (25:43)

Hey guys. My stepbrother and I have been brothers for almost 20 years. My fiance and his fiance have been friends for about as long since 2021. We've all hung out and had plenty of sleepovers, playing cards till early in the morning, laughing and generally having a good time. Then sometime last year my fiance and his had a falling out and they are no longer friends over what I think is mostly stubbornness but also a few low blows here and there. Now my stepbrother is getting married in 10 days and I have yet to receive a wedding invitation. I sent him a text on his birthday recently and got no response. Mind you, he and I have had no problems at all. If anything, out of us four brothers, I think he and I were the closest in recent years. I've been wanting to call him for about a month just on the off chance that he has no idea I haven't been invited.

A (26:32)

Oh, he knows. Come on, man. If he had. So maybe people who don't, who haven't been married don't know this, but like when you do wedding RSVP stuff and you don't get an answer from somebody that you actually give a crap about, you notice right away cause you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, I didn't hear from so and so. Or your mom's like, so we're all going. Or like Tom said he didn't hear from like, come on. It's impossible for this to go unnoticed. Essentially.

B (26:57)

That was until I called a couple of times and now I think I have my answer. Oh, even if he did answer, the only thing I could think to say is, bro, where's my wedding invite, shithead?

A (27:07)

Yeah, that would have been really. That would have nailed it, huh? I would not go with that script, but I totally get the anger. So just to be clear, this is a little confusing. I assume he called and then his brother ignored the calls like he did with the birthday text.

B (27:21)

Okay, that's what it sounds like.

A (27:23)

Gabriel, I'm using my super high emotional intelligence quotient to realize that to get a picture of poor emotional communication or poor communication in general all around in.

B (27:33)

This family, your powers of deduction have never been stronger.

A (27:36)

Yes.

B (27:36)

A lot of big conversations not happening in this family.

A (27:39)

Yeah. And therefore a lot of speculation and confusion and it just makes everything harder.

B (27:44)

My mom has tried to talk to the bride to be, but she offered no explanation and promptly shut the conversation down.

A (27:50)

Gabriel, I feel like you're going to agree with me on this. I find this way of dealing with conflict ridiculous. So frustrating.

B (27:57)

Frustrating.

A (27:58)

I'm angry at my brother in law and his fiance and I didn't invite them to my wedding. But I'm not going to tell anybody. Why?

B (28:05)

I mean, I'm racking my brain trying to imagine a scenario where this would be necessary.

A (28:09)

There is no reason to not tell anybody about what happened. Come on. Even if our friend here or his fiance did something terrible to her, that still isn't a tenable position. Then you say you did such and such thing to me or they did such and such thing to me and I'm super angry and I can't have you them whatever at the wedding and I'm not ready to talk about it. You don't just go like, I'm not saying anything. But they're not invited. That's all you need to know. No, that is not all I need to know. My son is not invited to my other son's wedding. I need to know more. You need a reason?

B (28:38)

Yeah, and it's weird that the mom didn't press the issue as well, but also, if they did do something terrible to this bride to be, then they would probably. No, you don't refuse to talk about it and then leave your fiance's closest brother and your former friend, best friend or whatever, wondering if they've been completely cut off or if their invitation just got lost in the mail. That sucks.

A (28:56)

I know we're missing a lot of information here, but this strikes me as avoidant and incredibly childish.

B (29:02)

What's your take on all this? How do I handle this? And are we just getting to a point now where family members are just cutting each other off for no reason? Signed, something old, something new, something borrowed. Now I'm blue. And a conflict avoided in her shoe.

A (29:18)

That's a good one. I like that one. That's a new genre of sign off. I like. Again, kudos. Well, I think we already answered your first question. There's so much more we'd need to know about these conflicts to weigh in on who's to blame, who needs to apologize, whether you guys should be at the wedding, all of that. What I can say for sure is this is not a helpful way to handle a problem. If your brother and his future wife aren't even willing to talk to you, how are you going to make progress here? And that leaves you and your fiance with some really tough feelings. Even if you and or your fiance were in the wrong here, this is both compounding the problem and leaving you with a lot of hurt and a lot of confusion. And it sucks. It really does. I'm sorry about that, man. I assume you'd want to know if you did something wrong and try to repair things, but they're making that impossible somehow, for whatever reason. And so I have to assume that this says more about their personalities, their capacity for conflict, their empathy for you guys, even if your fiance is responsible for some of the low blows that you mentioned. Gabe, I am barely wrapping my head around how extreme it is to not invite a sibling to your wedding. The problem would have to be really, really serious. This can't be a problem that'll eventually blow over or be resolved because this is a permanent decision, and they're escalating it. The brother's not going to be in the photos. Everyone at the wedding is going to ask, where's Rob? Where's Nicole? And they're going to have to be like, oh, Nicole and Stacy are in a tiff so we didn't invite them. Which is either going to make them look like the childish assholes that they are being, or they're going to have to invent some way worse story to make themselves not look like complete dicks for excluding them, which is then, of course, going to further damage our friend here's reputation in the family. And he's going to have to undo that and then explain like, that didn't happen. It's just going to cause so much more drama. This whole thing is a mess.

B (31:10)

All because they don't want to have a difficult chat for a few minutes.

A (31:13)

Yes.

B (31:13)

Absurd.

A (31:14)

Yes, it's ridiculous. I'm actually deeply weirded out by this. This is like one notch below not visiting somebody in hospice when they're dying because you're mad at them for not lending you their car one time. Like, this is. If I was really mad at somebody in my family, I'd invite them and then be like, we got some crap to sort out, but in the meantime, have a drink. It's my wedding. Let's not screw this up by being dickheads to each other. Of course. Get in the photo. Smile. Pretend like you want to be here. Like, it would have to be so bad. It would have to be like, the stepbrother tried to sleep with my bride to be. It would have to be at that level. It couldn't be like some petty money dispute or like, she said something that made me feel fat. Like, it's, oh, he said this thing about my job, or he called me a loser. Like, all of that has to be water under the bridge or at least put on pause so you can have a once in a lifetime family event, and then you can get back to being petty assholes to each other.

B (32:03)

He said that his read on the breakup between the ladies is that it's mostly stubbornness in addition to whatever those low blows were, which I assume means that they're just both so entrenched in their positions that they can't even understand each other and just talk this out.

A (32:18)

Which, again, is so childish. I'm not even putting all that on Stacey. The gals both need to lean in here. I mean, I get it. It's hard not to be identified with your position, but they're all adults supposedly, right? If they can't put their positions down for 10 minutes and hear what it's like for the other person. I don't need to be cruel, but everybody needs to grow the hell up here. So this is probably pretty complicated, but you have two basic options. Option one is you continue to reach out to your brother and or his fiance. You press the issue. However, you can respectfully force a conversation. So you can resolve this or at least understand it better. Maybe you send a couple texts or emails. Brief, respectful. I'm very confused. I'm sad. If I did something wrong, I'm happy to talk it through with you. I'd really appreciate a few minutes with you to understand what's going on. Try to book that conversation before the wedding. You might also want to ask a friend or family member to gently encourage them to chat with you. Maybe even mediate if that's necessary. I know your mom sort of tried and your future sister in law shut that down. But maybe mom wasn't the right person or she took the wrong approach. I don't know. Option two is you accept the message and you stop trying to repair things. At least for the time being. Which means making peace with the idea that you won't be at the wedding, which would be super unfortunate and really sad. No way around it, but that seems to be the position that they're boxing you into.

B (33:35)

Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would probably write that letter to your stepbrother and I would basically say that it's been very hard and confusing to be cut off and excluded from the wedding. That if there is an issue between you and or between your partners, you are eager to hear them out, understand the problem, find a resolution. In a spirit of like genuine curiosity and openness, of course. And that despite all of this, you love your stepbrother and you want to be a part of his life and his big day so that he really feels that. And that you would love for the conversation to happen as soon as possible, ideally before the wedding, so that nobody in the situation regrets missing out on sharing this important event. I think it's important for him to remember the stakes here.

A (34:12)

Dude. If you ignore your family member after getting a message like that, assuming they didn't, you know, again, kill their dog or sabotage their business or try to sleep with their wife or something, which isn't the case because then you would know what you did. You know what they did, right? If you ghost your brother after that, you are an avoidant dickhead. I'm sorry, I just don't understand This, I don't disagree.

B (34:31)

But the fact that he's probably avoiding his brother in solidarity with his fiance. Yeah. Such an interesting parallel with the first question, because the business partner might have been acting in solidarity with his new girlfriend. It's interesting. If the problem is not even between the two brothers, that complicates things even further. That is also a problem if he's. That's why he's uninviting them. But it's a totally different problem, and.

A (34:52)

That'S not something our friend here can really resolve. It's not his business, really.

B (34:55)

No. If that is what's going on, then he's definitely affected by it severely. But it's not really his place to tell his stepbrother. It might be harder for him to say, hey, this is how much you should take your spouse aside, and this is when you should do it, and this is when you should not do it. That's not fair.

A (35:09)

But, dude, the fact that he's making his brother pay the price for something that's between the ladies. Again, unless we're missing something big here, that's even more ridiculous and meaner.

B (35:17)

It's tough to. To accept that our friend here is paying the price not just for a fight that isn't his, but for a dynamic that he is not responsible for and cannot influence, which is kind of insane. But it might also help him remember how much responsibility he ultimately has here.

A (35:32)

Right. It might not lessen the sadness, but it might alleviate the guilt and maybe.

B (35:37)

In some way help him empathize to some degree with a brother who is probably equally clumsy at managing conflict, if the family way is any indication.

A (35:45)

Oof. Yeah. Well, look, with only 10 days to the wedding. Oh, my gosh. I would keep that letter fairly brief. You don't have a lot of time. Make the main agenda this chat with your brother. I wouldn't use this letter to argue the facts. Don't defend your position. You can do that when you talk if necessary. The whole thing sounds petty and stupid and probably doesn't even need to be addressed honestly. But if your brother accepts the offer, then you know what to do. Make it safe for him to be totally honest with you. Listen to him. Try to understand his perspective. Even if most of this has to do with the gals. Maybe he's got some issues of his own that you guys don't know about, or your history is making it hard to talk. That is fair game. And then you can share your perspective, hopefully help him see things from your point of view. Whatever you do don't escalate it. Don't attack. Definitely don't hit him with the hey, shithead, where's my wedding invite? Comment above. As tempting as that might be, even.

B (36:32)

If you don't resolve every single aspect of this conflict, even if you don't get the gals to make up as well, it's definitely worth trying to get to a good enough place that you're at least invited to the wedding. That would be a win for me.

A (36:42)

And if your brother ignores your attempts to talk, then you'll know that you really did everything you could for the time being, and you'll have to go with option two, but hopefully with a little bit less regret.

B (36:52)

Yeah, and probably with a way worse gift from the registry, which is one upside.

A (36:56)

That's right. You can exact your revenge by getting him the $6 water goblets that aren't dishwasher safe. That'll show him.

B (37:02)

It's interesting that he's asking if we're at a point now where family members are just cutting one another off for no reason. I think it's probably rare for people to cut one another off for no reason, but that obviously doesn't mean it's always for a good reason.

A (37:13)

No, the idea does seem to be in the zeitgeist right now. Like, we've normalized cutting people off too much. And Gabriel, I don't know if you see this on social media, but people make fun of this all the time. Like, oh, you don't want to do totally reasonable thing. Well, that's toxic and a boundary for me. And it's like, all right, whatever.

B (37:30)

I've actually been very happy to see the articles taking down that approach because, yeah, obviously sometimes you have to cut somebody off, you know, in a ridiculous situation. I think those situations are pretty extreme. Fairly rare. But yeah, there is this line of thinking out there and especially online, where the advice is just so overly simplistic. The advice is basically, if anyone hurts you or challenges you or inconveniences you in any way, cut them off. Like, don't look back. Which is, of course absurd.

A (37:56)

Yeah, totally unnuanced. And those same people are like, why is everybody this loneliness epidemic? And it's like, didn't you cut someone off because they got your order wrong at Starbucks when they went to go get coffee? Like, didn't you label your ex toxic because they don't like noodles? Come on.

B (38:12)

To be fair, your noodle choice does say a lot about your personality. But I digress. Hard agree that does very little if anything to strengthen our muscles for healthy conflict, to increase our capacity for this kind of difference in injury and repair.

A (38:24)

Yes. Which is essential if you want to be a functional human being.

B (38:28)

Essential and also very rewarding. I mean, this is actually what makes me the saddest about this whole cutting people off for no reason thing, like what his brother seems to be doing to him. He's not just making things harder for his family, he's also missing one of the most beautiful experiences in life, in my view, which is being close with someone you love even when there's a problem between you, and growing through that and coming to understand yourself and the other person better, and then enjoying a deeper relationship as a result.

A (38:53)

That's so hard, but that is so crucial.

B (38:56)

So if we're at a point where family members are cutting one another off regularly, then yeah, I think something is very wrong. But what we've been getting at here is even if you're blameless in the situation, even if this is the ladies fight to resolve or your stepbrother is being avoidant, it would still benefit you to be curious about his reasons for ghosting you, even if they don't really hold up, because that will get you closer to the resolution you're hoping for, for sure.

A (39:20)

I think what you're getting at is if the implication of his question is my family might be cutting me off for no reason, like so many families do, so maybe I don't need to take much of an interest in their reasons, then he needs to revisit that assumption.

B (39:32)

That's right, because that might also be a reflection of his family's whole way of dealing with conflict as well.

A (39:36)

And if you do revisit that assumption, you'll also know that you handled this very differently from how your family tends to handle these things, which I think would be the real victory here. So good luck. You can reach us Friday@jordanharbinger.com, keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're still waiting on a huge promotion from your avoidant boss, you're wondering how to support a loved one who's getting out of prison soon or your child has asked you for help procuring and adult product. Still reeling from that one last week, Gabe? Hope we managed to be open minded without being completely off the map. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up@Fridayordanharbinger.com we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous by the way. If you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. We bit wiser. It's a bite sized gem from us to you. Delivered on most Wednesdays. It's an under two minute read. Highly practical. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. All right, what's next?

B (40:29)

Hey Jordan and Gabe. I wanted to reach out after listening to your skeptical Sunday episode on testosterone replacement therapy. I'm 41 years old and had been on TRT for about a year. After a period of unemployment, I returned to working as a firefighter temporarily. I'm now back in fintech. Hashtag6minutenetworking.

A (40:49)

Love that. Incredible that you six minute networking your way from firefighting to working in fintech. That's a hell of a pivot. Best ad for the six minute networking course I could have made this week. Obligatory plug sixminutenetworking.com it is free. There are no shenanigans. All right. Won't mention it again today.

B (41:04)

Coming back after years away, my energy was extremely low. Recovery was brutal and fatigue felt constant. My doctor suggested checking my testosterone levels. They came back low. Although I was never told the number and I was prescribed testosterone. The results were life changing. My recovery improved dramatically. My energy came back neck and my libido improved. I genuinely thought that I had just been feeling run down from aging and chasing a three year old around the house at the same time. My wife and I had been trying to get pregnant for about a year. I remember asking my doctor how TRT might affect my sexual health. The answer focused on libido and energy and that part was true. But infertility was never discussed. When I heard your episode cover the infertility risks, my stomach dropped. I immediately stopped TRT and went to see a urologist. I had hormone testing and a semen analysis done. The test itself was not as fun as it looks in the movies. Instead, they had me take a cup home and come right back. Walking past your 3 year old and wife on your way to provide a sample is kind of awkward.

A (42:10)

Well, yeah, that's hilarious. That's true. Dude, I got a vasectomy. I think I talked about that. Right? Okay. So they have to prove that it works. It almost always works, but you know, stuff goes wrong. I did get an infection, but like some people like, I don't know, really wants to reconnect and grows back. So they're like, yeah, come on in and then we'll give you a cup and you go in the bathroom and like, you know, you do your thing. And whatever. So I go back and I'm like, I'll take the cup. And I'm like, where can I do this? And she's like, we don't have a room for that. She's like, just go into the restroom. So I'm like, okay.

B (42:41)

At the doctor's office.

A (42:43)

Yeah.

B (42:43)

I didn't find. I didn't know that that was a thing. I thought they sent you to a special place for that.

A (42:47)

Yeah, so did I. But she's like, nope. And then I go to the bathroom and like, there's some dude camped out in there. So I'm waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. And this dude is camped out in there. And I'm like, okay. The only other choice is another bathroom. So I walk really far. I go there and the stall is like out of order. And there's a urinal only. So I'm like, screw it. So I'm like, what do I do? I go back to the original bathroom. The dude is still in there. I'm like, excuse me, are you going to be much longer? And he doesn't answer. Okay.

B (43:16)

So I'm like, oh, is he also providing?

A (43:19)

I don't know if he's providing or if it's like an old dude who's just asleep on the pot, but he's moving around. So I want it. Because I was like, we're at the hospital. I want to make sure this guy's alive. He's moving around. He's just like being a jerk or has headphones in.

B (43:30)

Maybe I had his noise canceling headphones in while he was watching a little something on his phone to get in the mood 100%.

A (43:36)

So I'm like, screw it, I parked close. I'll go to my car. Okay.

B (43:39)

No, stop it.

A (43:44)

I'm already laughing at myself for this.

B (43:47)

Paint me a picture. Were you in the parking garage or on the street?

A (43:49)

No, I'm not on the street, but I'm in an open air parking lot at Kaiser Permanente.

B (43:54)

Okay, you're gonna end up on the same register as our friend from question one.

A (43:59)

Exactly. So I'm like in the car. And I'm like, okay. Nobody can see in to the windows of my car because the windows are really, really tinted. So. Okay, so I'm like in there most awkward, uncomfortable position ever to try and get a sample. Okay. And I'm like working really hard and I'm like, screw it. I gotta close my eyes and do this because I can't just like be looking at like a parking lot sign that Says like, like lot E, row 7 or something.

B (44:27)

By the way, illegal in California. Both tinting your windows and rubbing one.

A (44:36)

Now who's lawyering? Everybody. So I'm like, my eyes are closed, right? Because I'm trying to focus really, really hard. And I open my eyes because I hear a noise and there's a woman getting into the car next to me. And that's when I realized, no, no. That I'm in my dad's car, not my car. The windows are not tinted at all.

B (45:01)

What are you talking about? How did you not know?

A (45:04)

I just forgot. I drove in my dad's car and I was like looking at him like, it's cloudy days. So there was nothing, which.

B (45:09)

Oh, my God.

A (45:10)

Oh, my God.

B (45:11)

Did you at least put a sweatshirt over your lap or so she.

A (45:14)

Thank God, did not notice. Thank God. That's why I'm not in prison right now, by the way.

B (45:20)

I feel like that would have to be some kind of defense if you ever had to go to court for that. Like, I try. I had to give a sample and there was a guy, like there would have to be.

A (45:27)

That's why I'm not on probation right now, is I didn't get caught.

B (45:30)

That's why you're still allowed within 100ft of a school.

A (45:34)

So I'm allowed to drop my kids off at school?

B (45:38)

Oh, my God. So you successfully completed the procedure?

A (45:42)

No, actually, I ended up having to go home, which I think is a little ridiculous, but also much more legal than what I was planning on doing before.

B (45:50)

You're allowed to do that at home?

A (45:51)

Yeah, exactly. You're allowed to do that at home. So then I just drove back and I was like, it's been unrefrigerated for about 10 minutes. And she's like, don't worry, it's fine. I'm sure. So that was the end of that.

B (46:00)

My God. Well, I don't know what to say. That's the real walk of shame anyway.

A (46:04)

Nothing like rubbing one out in the guest bathroom while your toddler watches Paw patrol at full volume 15ft away. So I can relate, buddy. I can relate.

B (46:11)

Yeah. Sounds like you were doing your own paw patrol. And so was our friend here.

A (46:14)

That's right. I'm going to start calling me Time Paw Patrol.

B (46:18)

Well, it sounds like that's going to come in handy a lot for you. Let me collect myself and go on with the letter. The results were worse than I worried about. The doctor told me my sperm count was non existent. Zero hearing. That was devastating.

A (46:33)

So tough, man. I'M really sorry to hear that.

B (46:35)

Now I'm dealing with the crash from stopping trt. Extreme fatigue, low energy, and my testosterone level is currently at 53.

A (46:42)

Ooh. Okay. Normal is like 300 and above or approximately. It could be like 250, but that's low. 53. Looks like you typoed and forgot a digit. Like 530 is okay. 53 is not. That's not good. That's 95 year old man testosterone.

B (47:02)

The urologist has started me on medications to try to restore natural production. And I have upcoming appointments with an endocrinologist and a reproductive specialist. Emotionally, though, I'm struggling. I feel angry at myself for not asking better questions. I feel guilty, like I may have taken away my son's chance at having a sibling. My wife is supportive and I know we'll find a way forward, but this has been heavy.

A (47:26)

Totally get that. I totally understand the anger, the sadness. It hurts to feel like you missed something.

B (47:32)

Yeah.

A (47:32)

I also hate that doctors don't always give you the info you need. I think that's infuriating and irresponsible. But it sounds like you're exploring some promising options here. I'm not a doctor, obviously, but I will say anecdotally, I know a lot of guys that have abused steroids and other hormones for years and years and years and years and years and they've been able to recover. And they're not young either. They're my age. So it's the idea that you've damaged yourself permanently. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet.

B (48:00)

I also have a practical concern. Insurance covered the TRT injections, but it's not covering the medications needed to restore fertility. That adds another layer of stress and stress causes issues with testosterone production.

A (48:13)

So frustrating.

B (48:14)

I'm sharing this partly to say thank you. Your episode may have changed the entire course of my family's future. If I hadn't heard it, I would still be taking testosterone injections and wondering why we're not getting pregnant. I'm also hoping that you might offer some perspective on next steps. Questions I should be asking my doctors or resources I should explore. Do I have a legal way forward to get some financial help paying for my fertility treatment? How should I go about finding a lawyer for this? And what are some natural ways of boosting testosterone? Sign Looking for a glimmer of hope about my swimmers.

A (48:45)

So, as you guys probably know, we don't usually take medical questions on the show because we're not doctors, we're not health experts by any means unless the question is, you know, psychological aspect of a health problem or something like that. But I wanted to feature this letter because I think it's an important cautionary tale and I know the listener would want other people to benefit from his story too. I consider this a really important contribution to the episodes I've done with experts on fertility and hormone replacement therapy and libido and all that jazz. So to the listener who wrote in, so sorry that you've been through all this, this really sucks. I actually find it super disappointing and again, unconscionable really, that some doctors aren't telling patients about the risks of doing trt, including the fertility thing. That is crazy to me. And I feel bad that you're beating yourself up for not asking better questions. I get that. You know, most of us, we trust the doctors maybe a little too much sometimes to give us the information that we need. They are the experts, supposedly, and it sucks you feel this regret and this guilt, and as a man, I totally understand why. But like I said, you're going to all the right specialists. It sounds like you have some new avenues to pursue, and I really hope some combination of these treatments works. And on the bright side, I don't mean to minimize this, but how wonderful that you already have one son already. This doesn't mean you'll never have children. And there are ways to have another one, whether it's using a donor or adopting. Although you obviously do not need to be thinking about all of that yet. So, like I said, we can't offer medical advice. But I do have a few broad thoughts. First, I would ask Chat, GPT or any AI about your situation, your appointments, the treatments, all pertinent information, and see what it recommends. You ask your doctors. It can be really good for this sort of thing. Not medical advice, but it can be good to give you questions to ask the doctor. I would also literally ask your doctors, please tell me all of my options. Please tell me everything I might be missing. What are the upsides? What are the risks? I want to know it all. As far as finding a legal way to get some financial help to pay for your fertility treatment, your best bet is to talk to an employment attorney or a health law attorney. If your company doesn't explicitly offer this benefit, it might be kind of hard to make a case for it. But you never know. In terms of finding a lawyer, AVO.com is often recommended as one of the best attorney directories. I would Also Google and ChatGPT your way to others, maybe look for articles written on this topic. Topic. See if any attorneys wrote them or look up high profile cases. Track down the attorneys who worked on them. Lawyers who advertise. Look, they're not automatically bad, but you do want to find a reputable one. And again, I can't really weigh in on natural ways of boosting testosterone. I'm sure you can find answers to this online yourself. I know certain supplements, exercise routines, diet, general lifestyle, really working out and sleeping is the best thing. But this is a question for your doctors because you have medically low testosterone, so it's different. Again, so sorry you're going through this my friend, but thank you for sharing your story with us. You might help a lot of people listening right now. Sending you, your wife and your son a big hug. Enjoy that Paw Patrol as much as you can. We're rooting for you bud. Speaking of Paw Patrol, get your paws on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Mint Mobile. Now that the holidays are over, you might be feeling like you got a big spending hangover. 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Imagine how much smarter I could have turned out. Listening on Audible feels like downloading knowledge straight into my head. Lately I've been into Michael Aaron Flicker and Richard Shotton's Hacking the Human Mind. Super fascinating stuff on influence, decision making, what actually drives people, and Audible's well being collection goes way beyond that. Brene Brown, Jamie Oliver on nutrition, even nature sleep sounds from the sleeping world. Whatever supports your mindset, health or daily routine. Audible has IT membership is $14.95 a month. After 30 days you can cancel anytime. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Kickstart your wellbeing journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.comjhs this episode is also sponsored in part by Momentous. January is a great time for a reset. Get more consistent with workouts, sleep and the basics that actually move the needle. Supplements can help, but because it's so lightly regulated, you want to be careful you're not just taking some sawdust from a Chinese factory floor. That's why I trust and take Momentous. Momentous was not satisfied with industry standard, so they built the Momentous standard and their commitment to doing things the right way, not the easy way. Every product is independently certified by NSF for Sport or Informed Sport, tested for contaminants, heavy metals, banned substances and label accuracy. And one of my favorites lately is their chewable creatine. They taste great too, but the convenience is the whole point. It's the kind of thing you actually stick with and you're not trading quality for that convenience. Momentous uses the purest form of creatine monohydrate with clinically backed ingredients and no fillers or artificial sweeteners. So if you want supplements you can really trust, Momentous is the move. Right now Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first order with promo code. JHS head to livemomentous.com and use promo code JHS for up to 35% off your first Order. That's livemomentous.com, promo code JHS. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. To learn more and get links to all the discounts you hear on the show, go to jordanharbinger.com deals. If that doesn't work, email us jordanaordanharbinger.com, we'll dig up the code for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, Recommendation of the Week I am addicted to lip filler.

B (55:37)

So I was at my friend Brenna's engagement party a few weeks ago and one of our friends at the party was going around taking photos with a small old school, disposable looking but actually digital camera and taking photos of the friend group and meeting new people, having a lot of fun. And I was like, oh, are those party favors or did they leave them on the table for the guests to play with? And she said, no, I brought it. I'm just going to take photos of the event and then I'll give it to Brenna and Forest as a gift so they have, you know, more photos, fun photos on the party, which I thought was a really cool idea. So the camera she was using is called Camp Snap. It's a digital camera. It's 8 megapixels. It comes with an SD card. It's not the greatest camera in the world, but it's solid and it's super fun. And the whole idea behind this camera is that a lot of summer camps ban screens, including digital cameras. So they made this camera without a screen, but it's still digital and it's like $70. Pretty affordable for a digital camera. Easy to give away as a gift. You also would not get upset if you lost it or damaged it. I thought this was a cool idea, both the Camp Snap and the idea of taking pictures on an event and then giving it as a gift to the hosts. So that's my wreck of the week and we'll link to it as always in the show notes.

A (56:42)

Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners, specific episodes, episodes you liked, episodes you didn't like. A lot of conversations happening over there. I am always lurking around in there. Gabe's in there. A lot of the other team is in there, and thousands of listeners are in there. You can find it on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

B (57:00)

All right, next up Dear Jordan and Gabe, by most measures, I have a great life. I'm 30 years old, recently married to a wonderful partner, and living in a vibrant city with strong friendships and plenty of hobbies. The one area that has never really clicked, though, is my career. After college, I drifted into whatever jobs came my way. During the pandemic, I stumbled into sales. The pay and flexibility were great and I had some early success, but the monotonous grind of cold calling eventually burned me out. That pattern repeated across four sales roles over five initial traction followed by declining motivation and eventual termination. Despite the eventual outcome, every manager I've had has offered to act as a reference. I'm consistently told that I'm curious, friendly, creative and coachable. But I lack the competitive instinct needed for sales, and my people pleaser tendencies make handling objections tough. I also struggle to build quick rapport. I'm great at forming deeper relationships over time, just not in the first 60 seconds of a cold call.

A (58:01)

This is all super useful information, some really positive stuff, some helpful criticism. I really appreciate how open and clear you are about about it.

B (58:09)

I recently took a customer service job for stability while I try to figure out what comes next. Thanks in part to the wisdom and advice from your show, I've spent years journaling, reflecting and exploring what might be a better long term fit. I've always been drawn to the idea of becoming a therapist, but the thought of going back to school held me back. Now, at 30 and newly married with goals like home ownership, parenthood and a stable retirement, I feel ready for a real change. Change. I've talked with friends in the mental health field, met with admissions departments, and for the first time feel a genuine sense of excitement about a career path. Here's my I have a history of burning out on things that I initially love. It's like going to the gym for the first time. You get these beginner gains where you see these really noticeable improvements really quickly. But after a couple of months you plateau and your gains only become noticeable over a longer period of time. Time. You can add weightlifting to the list of my abandoned interests.

A (59:05)

That's super relatable.

B (59:06)

This is how I am with my hobbies too. I've always loved learning, so when I dig into a new topic I get a huge rush. I pour myself into it and learn maybe 75% of the subject in a few months. Then I Reach a point where it would take years of dedication and practice to unlock the last 25%. The high that I get from new information wears off, and the diligent effort required to unlock that next step step just doesn't appeal to me in the same way. So I dive into the next shiny new thing where I can get that rush again.

A (59:35)

Yeah, very common.

B (59:36)

I'm also a big daydreamer. When I unlock a new interest, my brain immediately skips ahead 10 steps. For example, when I got my first sales job, I led my team in my first month. So I immediately started fantasizing about how fast I could move up the ladder. In my head, I was on the path to being CEO in five years. But inevitably I hit that plateau and fall back to earth. Then the monotony starts to set in, I get bored, and I pivot to a new point of interest. Before sales, I spent two years deeply committed to stand up comedy, made some real progress, then abruptly lost interest. I studied music in college with total dedication. I had a detailed schedule for every part of my day, which removed the choices that would lead me to blow off my study. But by my senior year, I could barely bring myself to practice. I've tried to apply that system to jobs, but at a certain point, the feeling of boredom and lack of stimulation feel almost. Almost unbearable. So instead of locking in, I watch a YouTube video about my shiny new interest. I feel a genuine calling to therapy, but I worry about repeating this pattern. How can I know this passion will last? What guidance do you have for someone who wants to pursue meaningful work without burning out or losing steam a few years in? How can I build sustainable long term commitment to a path that finally feels right? Signed, Searching for my sticktoitiveness before I dive into the thick of this brand new calling and busyness, when my boredom is almost an illness.

A (61:02)

Man. Okay, such a great question. First of all, thank you for being so open with us about all this and for sharing so much of your struggle to stay committed. I've dealt with this exact same thing in my life. I know Gabe has too. We've talked about it a bunch. And I think everyone listening right now can relate to how hard it is to A, know what to get excited about and B, stick with what you're excited about.

B (61:22)

About. Especially when it stops being exciting, which.

A (61:25)

It almost always does. Yeah, that always happens. I would imagine everyone listening right now is like, yeah, I did that with. And then just fill in the blank like some hobby or some sport. So a few general thoughts and then let's talk about this new career of yours. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that whenever we get questions about procrastination, avoidance, losing steam, we often end up talking about how we're not actually avoiding the task, we're avoiding the feelings that the task brings up. We're avoiding an experience which is always an experience of ourselves. That might be anxiety, it might be frustration, it might be shame, it might be fear, it might be disappointment. In my experience, it's usually some mix of all the above. And so we turn away from the task and then we go, oh, I'm procrastinating, or I have trouble concentrating, or I guess this really isn't the thing for me after all, when really it's usually resistance. And it's not even resistance to the thing, it's resistance to the things that the thing brings up in us, which is always some form of distress or sometimes worse.

B (62:22)

I mean, look, to be honest, you know, there might be some add, like quality here, and if that's what's going on, then it might be really good for him to know that that's how his brain works. And brains like that do have a certain relationship with tasks. And sometimes things get really exciting for a short amount of time, and then you lose interest and you move on and harder to stick with things. So that's always a possibility. But I think what you're getting at, Jordan, is that even if that is part of the equation here, there's always this other resistance. And, yeah, sometimes that is some form of distress we're avoiding. Sometimes it's also something even stronger, which is a narcissistic wound wound. And we'll do a lot to protect ourselves from that.

A (62:56)

And then we're back to that shame piece again. I think the shame is usually the most distressing of the distresses, but maybe that's just me. But so if we really acknowledge that deeper stuff and decided to tolerate those feelings while we kept at the goal and worked hard through them, I mean, that sounds great, but that is hard, man. I don't know about you, but I'll do a lot to avoid getting angry with a problem at work. I'll do so many mental gymnastics to avoid confronting my creative limitations. I could be in the Olympics for that. Because it sucks. It sucks to sometimes be in a real relationship with your goals and with yourself, because then you have to be in touch with all this stuff and your excitement, your confidence, your inspiration and your shame, your anger, your boredom, all of it. And I think for most people, that's just really hard.

B (63:40)

It really is. And well put, Jordan. I relate to this, like you said, so hard myself. I also think that one of the feelings worth paying attention to is this boredom. That came up a few times in his letter. He talked about the monotony setting in, the high, wearing off, the next step not being as appealing to him, burning out. Look, sometimes when we get bored, we're just bored, Right? That's fair. We're not into the thing anymore. It's not our calling. That's fine. For example, I think it's very likely that this guy's calling is not sales. Great. You know, we obviously have to pay attention to what actually lights us up, but oftentimes boredom is not just a lack of interest in something, but a defense as well. And sometimes it's like a withdrawing from the thing or a form of protest, like we've talked about on the show before for. And that protest kind of is like, well, this is too hard. I don't like this feeling. I need help, whatever it is. So I'm going on mental emotional strike. You know, unconsciously. I mean, I'm bored. And that makes boredom actually a very rich experience and sometimes a really important signal that there might be more going on beneath the surface.

A (64:40)

Super interesting. Yeah. So the question is, what are we withdrawing from or what are we protesting against?

B (64:47)

Well, like you said, it's always ourselves. Our friend here has moved among a lot of different careers and interests, and some of them are for him, some of them are not for him. But what he seems to be confronting over and over again, and what partly makes up the pattern that he's now hoping to break is the parts of himself that he meets when the honeymoon.

A (65:03)

Phase is over, when the initial high wears off. Yeah.

B (65:05)

Yeah. So what's standing out to me in his letter is he has a good grasp of this pattern, which I commend him for, but we're not hearing what those parts of himself are, what feelings, things he's probably contending with when he hits a wall in his pursuits.

A (65:17)

Well, to be fair, he is saying, I've always loved learning. I get this huge rush, and then I get to a point where the high wears off, and I don't want to put in the effort to unlock the next step. And then I seek out that rush again.

B (65:29)

Yes. And that's great for him to see, but that's a pretty heady way of understanding what he's coming up against. What he's sharing with us is mostly intellectual. It's about learning. It's about the rush, it's about the high. It's even about the limit of his interest and his concentration. I'm not hearing those more primitive feelings. You talked about a mom go. Like, the anxiety, the fear, the shame especially. And what those feelings might be revealing about his personality.

A (65:51)

That's true. So that would be a great next step for him. He loves journaling and reflecting. I would journal and talk about these layers. What's underneath the boredom, the monotony. What specific thoughts and feelings come up when you complete that first cycle of excitement. And then you're looking at the next phase and going like, oh, shit.

B (66:07)

I think the high and the rush and the inspiration that he's describing are also qualities worth looking at. In a way, those are the flip side of boredom. Right. But they might be functioning in a similar way to the boredom. He's talking about them like they're objective qualities of any new pursuit. Right. There's always that exuberant, intoxicating honeymoon phase. And then it inevitably dies. Right. I wonder if it might be more accurate to say that the high and the rush and the shininess are the byproduct of the way that he's relating to these pursuits suits. It might actually be an inner experience. And that rush might also be a defense against these very same difficult feelings he's trying to avoid. It's just that the defense is more easily funded by his excitement and by the novelty of the thing that he's just taken up, as well as his own genuine passion for these things, to be fair. And then it's more easily sustained by his ignorance at the very beginning of how hard it is really to stick with something for the long term and become truly great at it.

A (67:03)

Yeah. Fascinating. So if your theory is correct, what you're saying is the rush he gets from new things might be a defense against these difficult feelings.

B (67:10)

Partly a defense. Yeah.

A (67:12)

Partly a defense against these difficult feelings. And when the honeymoon period wears off, that defense starts to crumble. Or like, the lifeblood of that defense dries up. And so he unconsciously looks for a new one. And the new one is boredom.

B (67:24)

That's exactly it. And he can decide if that fits. But I do think that's very common, and I have seen that in myself many times over the years.

A (67:30)

I'm just thinking about the implications of that for relationships. Cause we usually talk about the honeymoon period with people, Right. And now I'm thinking like. Like, is the excitement and mania of new love. Is that also a defense?

B (67:40)

That's a really interesting question. I think it might be, yeah. I also think that with people specifically, there's other stuff that fuels the honeymoon period. You know, there's that fantasy and that projection. We've talked a lot about that too.

A (67:50)

But there's also fantasy in our friend here's story as well. He's talking about his career and his hobbies, not people. But there's still this daydreaming thing, and maybe that's also preventing him from being in a real relationship with the reality of his goals. Because. Because he's indulging a story in his mind. But, like, I also get this, right? I've done the same thing. When I was a new lawyer, I was low key, fantasizing about being some baller partner who works three hours a day and owns four vacation homes or whatever. But then I, you know, before I realized I hated the law, or more recently, a couple years ago when I started working out, really seriously. Now it's been like five years, but I barely started managing my diet and I was already like, I'm gonna have a six pack. You know, I think we all do that to some degree, and maybe that's even useful on some level because it is exciting and it is motivating.

B (68:35)

I think the difference between a fantasy being a flight away from reality and being something closer to a dream or an aspiration, which is what you were talking about. The difference between those two things is how aware you are of what you're doing and then what you choose to do with that fantasy. In our friend here's case, the way he is putting it, when he unlocks a new interest, his brain immediately skips ahead 10 steps. He gets a job, he has a good first month, and then in his head he's like, I'm the CEO in the corner office in five years and I'm making a million dollars a year or whatever.

A (69:02)

So.

B (69:02)

So, okay, if he's going, wow, I have a knack for sales, I could be really good at this, and I want to lead this place one day. So what do I need to do week to week to put myself on a path to rising up? I would say that's a fairly healthy form of fantasy.

A (69:15)

But if he's living primarily in the fantasy that he has the Corner office and 5 million in the bank while he neglects his call sheet and his sales numbers plummet and he realizes he actually hates talking to customers.

B (69:24)

Exactly.

A (69:25)

Totally right. So it's not that fantasizing is inherently pathological.

B (69:29)

Not at all. I would say in a lot of cases. It's very productive and it's actually kind of beautiful. I mean, it's one of the fun things we get to do as humans.

A (69:36)

Right, but how do you fantasize? What do you do with your fantasies? That is the difference.

B (69:40)

Exactly what kind of mental paw patrol are you up to in your career, Brah?

A (69:43)

That's right.

B (69:44)

As a successful and unsuccessful fantasizer myself, I can tell you that those two, I think deep down we know they feel very different.

A (69:51)

Can confirm.

B (69:52)

Also, what makes this interesting in the context of his question is that there is kind of a grandiose quality to his fantasy. Right. He's the CEO, he's leading a team, he's crushing. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar grandiosity when it came to music and stand up. Whenever grandiosity is on the scene, I think that's always a moment to go, oh, better keep an eye on that. Because grandiosity is also a well known defense.

A (70:15)

Yeah, it took the words right out of my mouth. Once you start imagining you're the man or you could become the man, you're probably not in touch with the man you are right now who still needs to work hard and struggle and fail and get up in the morning.

B (70:25)

Yes. And be in touch with all of those feelings that we keep coming back to. That's exactly right.

A (70:30)

So, okay, let's get tactical. In my view, you cannot know right now that this new passion for becoming a therapist is going to last. No one can. We choose our goals, we set out on a path. Part of the journey is not knowing what we're going to confront along the way. Failures, adversity, fear, boredom, as well as joy, growth, expansion. We just don't know. And that's anxiety provoking. But that anxiety, as we keep saying that, might be one of the feelings that you are wanting to avoid.

B (70:55)

Good point. Like, even by asking this question in the first place, like if I could just guarantee that my passion is going to last this time, then I won't have to deal with this problem, this anxiety.

A (71:03)

Yes. But in light of everything we're talking about, I think there's a much better question you should be asking right now, which is if my passion doesn't last, or rather knowing I'm going to go in and out of my passion over time, no matter what I choose, how can I understand this pattern in my life better? How can I put the right systems and relationships in place to sustain me when things get hard?

B (71:23)

Totally agree. That is such a great question.

A (71:25)

I know. It's the right question. Because I've been in this guy's shoes many times myself. I know what works. You want some guarantee that your choice is the right one, whatever that means. But really, what you should want is to know that you are the kind of person who can make the choice. Right?

B (71:37)

Yes. Damn well said.

A (71:39)

That's some Jedi ish, I know, but it's true. And you can only learn to commit by actually committing and riding out these waves of inspiration and deflation, excitement and frustration, accomplishment and injury. There's just. There's no other way.

B (71:51)

Also, he would have to do that whether he decided to be VP of sales or a bodybuilder or a comedian or a therapist who treats patients. Patients. That said, though, I do think that a person who feels called to be a psychotherapist probably has an additional responsibility to really crack this problem. I hope that isn't too presumptuous of me to say. I'm not walking this path myself. Part of me would love to walk this path myself. I don't also have the courage or dedication yet to do that. And I know that you're working hard to work on this quality. But the reason I'm saying this is this particular problem you're wrestling with because it gets at such a crucial part of who you are are. And these are such universal challenges for all human beings, these feelings like shame that we all share. Your ability to understand them, to understand this pattern, to make progress, to bear your own fear and shame and frustration and boredom. That's part of your own therapeutic journey. And that's also crucial to being able to help your patients work through those things. So the stakes here are high in the best way. This isn't just a practical question like, how do I get over this tendency of giving up on things so hard I can start a new career. It's also, how can I use this training as a therapist to evolve and then be the best possible therapist I can be?

A (73:00)

So true. And you know, if he really takes this on and learns how to conquer this, this theme could even become part of his specialty. At the very least, he could learn to identify it in people when it comes up and really help them through it. But yeah, he has to be able to do that in his own life first.

B (73:15)

I also want to quickly say, I know we've given you a lot to think about here, my man, but I'm also really interested in this thing you said, how your people pleaser tendencies made handling objections tough when you were in sales. It's funny because that's an example of a quality that might suggest that sales is just not your game. But just like procrastination, people pleasing also has deeper roots. And I imagine that this quality will also come up in your career as a therapist. Because as I'm sure you know, being a great therapist is not about pleasing your clients all the time. You want to be kind to them, of course. You want to support them, you want to see them succeed. You want to be a source of hope and support. Strength, of course, for sure. But that will also mean challenging your patients from time to time, pointing out difficult truths, moving them into challenging territory, risking inviting conflict with them. Interesting theme on today's episode. Being able to bear some of these very same feelings. When you and a patient get into something difficult, hit a problem, go through a rupture, which therapeutically can be extremely valuable. So I just think that's another important quality to keep an eye on. Because switching to therapy is not going to allow you to avoid conflict with people. And it might even increase. Increase it. So if this people pleasing thing is designed to avoid provoking other people or might speak to a certain brittleness on your part, a struggle to hang in tension with people, then I wonder if that might echo the struggle to stay committed to your goals when they get hard. Because that's a form of tension too.

A (74:34)

Okay, we have thrown a lot at you, but to wrap up, just to be super practical, I would go into this new career knowing that the honeymoon period will end, the shiny new thing will get dull. And that isn't a failure or a crisis. It's just where the defense ends and real work begins. Create good habits, develop good systems. Find routines that support your studies. Surround yourself with people who are invested in this goal of yours, who will support you, who will cheer you on and hold you accountable. That is crucial. When you get bored, and it will happen, try to lean in rather than lean out. And try to notice when you're turned off by the material or when you're avoiding a feeling.

B (75:12)

I think he should actually expect his journey to becoming a therapist, even though he's so lit up about it, to lose its level, to just know that, that. To expect that that's part of what is going to happen and trust that that's actually a good thing. Because then he won't just be in a relationship with a fantasy or with his excitement, he'll be in a real relationship with the thing itself. And I think that's huge progress.

A (75:33)

You do that, you're going to kick off your career as a therapist with a huge win and an even greater capacity to meet your future patients with more empathy, more insight, more life experience. I'm excited for you, man. Good luck. Go back and check out Richard Shotton and Michael Aaron Flicker and our Skeptical Sunday on Left Handedness. If you haven't done so so yet, show notes on the website advertisers discounts, ways to support the show. Also on the website@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm @jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne and Joanna Tate. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Ken Burns, who says the real American Revolution wasn't a clean break from Britain, but a messy, violent civil war whose contradiction was we are still debugging 250 years later. A good story neutralizes the binary yes and no. You know, you're bad left, right, young, old, rich, poor, whatever the dialectic is you're involved in, a good story can sort of neutralize it and go, oh, wow, I didn't know that. There's no test we'd share with you our process of discovery. So all the stuff I've said about the revolution, I had no idea going, going in. And I am so overwhelmed with the joy of acquiring it that giving it away feels even better. The ideas are really, really powerful. At the heart of this, the idea that you could be a citizen, that you could have a say in your government after your family has worked the land for a thousand years for somebody else. And all of a sudden you come here and you own some land and farm and you can do this and you're Democracy is a really messy form of government, but it's better than all the other forms because the other forms involve a kind of tyranny or authoritarian certainty. Democracy is messy because you actually have to listen to people that you disagree with and you have to compromise. When that breaks down, then you lose the possibility of having it. America comes out of violence. It's born in violence. What would you guys do? What would I do? Would I be a loyalist?

B (77:59)

Would I be a patriot?

A (78:00)

What would I be willing to fight for? What would I be willing to give my life and all that I've accumulated in my life, my fortune? Would I do that? We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. For more on what else we've been getting wrong about our own origin story, check out episode 1238 with Ken Burns. This episode forces you to confront the version of America you didn't learn in school. I've got holmes.com as a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows what when it comes when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in one place. Homes. Com We've done your homework.