Loading summary
Transcript459 lines
- [00:00]
A
This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant, so you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is that these great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those.
- [00:21]
B
Hired through the leading competitor.
- [00:23]
A
That's a big deal when every hire counts. Early on, I learned that hiring isn't headcount, it's do I see my family this week?
- [00:29]
B
Do we actually release episodes on time? Can I take a few days off.
- [00:32]
A
Without everything falling apart? When I've hired the right person, my life got easier. They took real work off my plate, caught problems early, and treated the business like it was theirs. That's when we actually grow with the wrong hire. I've spent months training, fixing mistakes, having the same conversations, and still ended up letting them go and starting over. You don't just lose money, you lose momentum, you lose morale, and you lose time. That's why I'm big on hiring right the first time, even if it takes a little longer.
- [00:56]
C
Hire right the first time, post your job for free@LinkedIn.com harbinger. Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com harbinger to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:16]
A
Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Nick Pell. On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and.
- [01:28]
B
Turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own.
- [01:31]
A
Life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become.
- [01:34]
B
A better informed, more critical thinker.
- [01:36]
A
During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks.
- [01:39]
B
From spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers.
- [01:43]
A
On Sundays though, it's Skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest co host and I break down a topic you may have.
- [01:48]
B
Never thought about and debunk common misconceptions.
- [01:51]
A
About that topic, such as astrology, acupuncture, weddings, the death industry, fast fashion, reiki healing, and more. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are Collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime and cults and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything.
- [02:11]
B
We do here on this show.
- [02:12]
A
Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app. To get started today, let me paint a picture.
- [02:21]
B
A 25 year old compulsive gamer with.
- [02:23]
A
Cystic acne lives in his mom's basement.
- [02:25]
B
He only turns off Call of duty to go on 4chan, an Internet message.
- [02:29]
A
Board and talk about how much he.
- [02:30]
B
Hates women and minorities. He's a big fan of Elliot Roger, the guy who decided to kill 6.
- [02:35]
A
And injure 14 out of his hatred.
- [02:36]
B
And malice for the opposite sex.
- [02:38]
A
I'm talking about incels. You might be familiar with the phenomenon, or maybe you just heard the term and you're not really sure what it means. Today I want to tackle the heart.
- [02:46]
B
Of the question about incels.
- [02:47]
A
Who are they really?
- [02:48]
B
Beyond the media caricatures, does what we.
- [02:51]
A
Think about them square up with reality? And what does this all say about.
- [02:55]
B
Men, dating and loneliness in an age.
- [02:57]
A
Where we're more connected than ever, yet somehow all feeling totally alone? Here to help me unpack the lonely truth is writer and researcher Nick Pell.
- [03:05]
D
Yeah, you. You give me all the fun ones. When do I get to do bananas or something?
- [03:10]
B
Man, you don't, man. You're my go to guy for exposing the shadowy underbelly of the Internet. Sorry, dude.
- [03:17]
D
No, it's fine. This is what I get for cultivating a relentlessly dark set of interests and living almost entirely online.
- [03:24]
A
Yeah, but also you're good for stuff.
- [03:26]
B
Like incels or antisemitism or the Lost Looks maxing episode because you help bring.
- [03:31]
A
Some balance to what are decidedly unbalanced subjects.
- [03:35]
D
Yeah, I sort of hate one dimensional takedowns of things that are more complex. I mean, the point here is to satisfy people's curiosity with reality, not caricatures.
- [03:45]
A
Fair.
- [03:46]
B
So incels. They're just total losers who can't get laid and have decided to punch the wall at women about the whole. Right.
- [03:52]
D
Well, in general, the answers to these kinds of questions require more than a yes or no answer. Which is why we dedicate an hour or more sometimes to unpacking these subjects. There's some history involved here. As per usual, the term incel dates back to the late 90s. And to disappoint any incels who might be out there listening, the term was coined by a foid.
- [04:15]
A
Okay, I'm probably going to regret asking.
- [04:17]
B
But what is a foid.
- [04:18]
D
It's their term for women.
- [04:20]
B
Okay.
- [04:20]
D
It's a shortening of femoid. I think the general idea is that women are sort of not really human in the same way that men are. They're these automatons who just act out of instinct and have no deeper emotional feeling like men do.
- [04:34]
B
Yeah. So men is the romantic gender, and women is the remorseless Machiavellian sharks. That's a new one.
- [04:40]
D
You know, it's not too far off from what German philosopher Schopenhauer had to say. And many incels will sometimes quote his text on women if they're a little more intellectually savvy.
- [04:53]
B
And you've read this, I'm guessing.
- [04:54]
D
Have I read the most important German pessimist philosopher of the 19th century? The man who inspired Nietzsche and Michel Welbeck? Yes. In any event, the connection between incels and Schopenhauer, it's more of a case of them, like, finding out that he said things that support what they already believe in this movement having any kind of intellectual heft to it. So the term incel was coined by a woman in the late 90s who we only know as Alana, and it was a gender neutral term. She was using it to describe her experience and, you know, presumably other people's on her blog. It just means involuntary celibate. Somebody who wants to have sex but isn't. And now you have femcels, which is kind of a different community, but not really any less toxic.
- [05:41]
B
So that's female incel, right?
- [05:43]
D
Yeah. We're just going to focus on the male of the species. Species for the purpose of this episode, because femcel's a whole other rabbit hole. And it's, you know, who even knew what that was before I mentioned it?
- [05:54]
B
Right, right. Okay. So where do they meet? I get the sense that these guys are not getting together and having meetups at the local Starbucks or the Elks Club or whatever forums.
- [06:04]
D
Mostly they were banned from Reddit. I see. Looked for incel subreddits. The only ones I found were banned.
- [06:11]
B
Speaking of Reddit, I have a funny aside, man. Sorry to derail you. So we did the episode on dick size recently, a couple weeks ago, and.
- [06:19]
A
I was like, oh, I'm going to.
- [06:20]
B
Post this on the Reddit forums where people complain and go, like, is my penis big enough? Right. Because that's, like, what we answered in the episode. I posted it on, like, average dick problems and all, you know, penis question. All these weird subreddits that, like, apparently exist and have Thousands of members by the way, and all they do is talk about dicks.
- [06:38]
A
And then I posted it on a couple of other subs, like small dick problems was one of them.
- [06:44]
B
And I come back from lunch today and it's like, you have been banned.
- [06:47]
A
From small dick problems. And then it was like you have.
- [06:50]
B
Been mute, you have been muted and.
- [06:51]
A
You cannot reply to this message. And I was like, this is the most small dick energy thing that I've seen. Like I'm banning your podcast about dick stuff because we don't allow podcast posts in here.
- [07:02]
B
And also I'm muting you so you can't reply. Haha. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's.
- [07:08]
A
Other forums were like, hey, like mods.
- [07:10]
B
Would message and go hey, we don't love cross posting. Can you add a little context?
- [07:14]
A
And I was like, oh, that's a very good response.
- [07:16]
B
Average dick problems, moderators, small dick problems, just like immediate nuclear option and you.
- [07:20]
A
Can'T even say anything back.
- [07:22]
B
Haha. I was just like, ah, the problem.
- [07:24]
A
Might not only be the PP guys, it might be the thing that's attached to it. I just thought that was like the.
- [07:29]
B
Most ironic thing that I got banned and muted from there. And that was the most ridiculous response that I got.
- [07:34]
A
And the podcast was completely reasonable if people heard it.
- [07:38]
B
And it was actually kind of designed to make some of those guys feel better, but yet they just rejected it out of hand. And I was like, I think I.
- [07:44]
A
See the problem that you guys might be dealing with a symptom of it.
- [07:47]
D
Anyway, as we get deeper into this episode, these comments will become strangely relevant.
- [07:52]
B
Oh really? Okay, okay, yeah, keep it coming then.
- [07:55]
D
Yeah, I mean in terms of like, maybe the problem is not the dick, it's the person it's attached to.
- [08:00]
B
Yes.
- [08:00]
D
Yeah, they were banned from Reddit. Incel is kind of like sometimes it's self applied and there's actually are guys who will get mad if somebody claims to be an incel but isn't, or they don't think he is, or don't think he has to be, or I don't. It's very strange. Sometimes it's applied ironically, you know, I'm such an incel. Or you know, like when people who aren't autistic call themselves autistic because they are socially awkward and have some niche interest or something like that, you know, use kind of comically. People have also started throwing it around as a swear word in a manner similar to how fascist gets applied to like anything and everything.
- [08:41]
B
I get called this Whenever I do an episode that might offend a certain group of people, I won't say the group because I don't need more emails saying ha incel.
- [08:50]
A
But it's basically if I say something.
- [08:53]
B
Like, I had an episode with this guy, this psychologist, Orion Taraban, and he talked about, like, here's what red pill gets, right? Here's some dating stuff. Here's some evolutionary psychology. And people were like, you guys are incels.
- [09:04]
A
And I was like, that's funny, because.
- [09:05]
B
We'Re both talking about, like, our significant others and the dating stuff and the years of dating we've done and brought this experience, but it was like, no. The fact that you think X makes you an incel now, even though that can't actually be true in our situation.
- [09:19]
D
Well, there's living, breathing proof that you've had sex at least twice.
- [09:22]
B
Yes, exactly. And I assume both of them are mine.
- [09:27]
A
They do look like me, so I've.
- [09:28]
B
Got that going for me.
- [09:30]
A
But, yeah, like, dude, I've seen people call Elon Musk an incel. And doesn't he have, like, four dozen kids? So, like, not an incel, I guess, you know?
- [09:38]
D
Right.
- [09:39]
B
Yeah.
- [09:39]
D
The incel communities start off as being, like, the supportive groups for these guys, which, you know, if you want to have sex and you're not, it's a bummer. Some of these guys are awkward, and the groups reflect that, but they're more of a support system for dealing with the feelings that come with that feel when no girlfriend or tfw, no gf, which is also the name of a movie about incels that I haven't seen and kind of refused to see. But Gotcha, I've heard, is very good, you know, and some of these guys, they're looking for a way out. They're looking for support and kind of a roadmap to get out of their incel them.
- [10:19]
B
Okay, so what's the way out?
- [10:21]
D
Well, there's different strategies. There's looks maxing, which you and I have talked about on the looks maxing episode that I'm gonna keep teasing the audience with. And, you know, looks maxing, in short, is ways of taking the raw material of the looks that you currently have and doing everything you can with them. So working out, dressing better, better skin care. There's more extreme versions of it, like pulverizing your jaw with a hammer.
- [10:48]
B
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. He's. By the way, he's not kidding or exaggerating about this, by the way.
- [10:53]
A
That.
- [10:53]
B
Yeah, just imagine shattering your cheekbone with a hammer so that it grows back more chiseled, no pun intended.
- [10:59]
D
Or cutting the fat out of your cheeks in a bathroom or. Yeah, anyway, yeah, you know, I don't think that this is a toxic impulse in and of itself. I don't think that women typically choose their partners on the basis of who is the best looking guy in the world. But, you know, if you're obese and you have cystic acne and zero social skills, working out, clearing up your skin, joining a club, making some friends, these are not going to hurt your chances with women. Even if you're just kind of average looking, you know, it's not a problem as such. But if you're average looking and then you go get some next level gym body and a flattering haircut, that's not going to hurt your chances with meeting attractive women. But at the end of the day, you're still going to have to talk to her. So if you're not cultivating social skills alongside it, none of this is probably going to help, because social skills are, I would argue, somewhat more important in for men trying to meet women than it is for women trying to meet men, which is about to get me called an incel. Maybe, but.
- [11:59]
B
Yes, exactly. I was going to say that's the kind of thing that gets you called an incel around here, but it's true.
- [12:02]
A
And also, I mean, look, haven't we.
- [12:04]
B
All met the guy who's like, dude, I had a friend also named Jordan in high school.
- [12:10]
A
This guy had more Riz than anybody.
- [12:12]
B
I've ever met in my life.
- [12:13]
A
And he always had just stunning women with him.
- [12:17]
B
And he would be like, oh, yeah, have you met so and so? And I would be like, yeah, I know her. Why? Oh, I'm going to go for that.
- [12:22]
A
And I remember, like, the first few.
- [12:24]
B
Months of knowing him, I would chuckle to myself and be like, good luck, dude. You are not even in the remote.
- [12:30]
A
Like, league of people who would be.
- [12:32]
B
Allowed to talk to a woman like that? And then like two weeks later, he's.
- [12:34]
A
Like, hey, dude, do you want to come and get some dinner with me and Catalina?
- [12:37]
B
And I'm like, is it your date?
- [12:39]
A
He's like, oh, she's my girlfriend.
- [12:40]
B
She'll be cool if you come along. And I'm like, what is going on? Right?
- [12:43]
A
And like, he did not have the things you're talking about. He was just. He had crazy Riz. And so, like, you really can do.
- [12:51]
B
A lot with social skills.
- [12:53]
A
And the thing was, he just ignored.
- [12:54]
B
All of his disadvantages. He just Straight up was like, these don't exist. They don't matter. That to me was incredible. That was like a life lesson just seeing someone like this. Anyway, I'm digressing here.
- [13:04]
A
I feel like this type of self.
- [13:06]
B
Improvement, right, Hitting the gym, getting what is it called a glow up a little bit, right?
- [13:10]
A
That, that was a big part of the early incel movement, right?
- [13:14]
B
It was.
- [13:15]
A
I remember back in the day, some of the message boards that became incel.
- [13:19]
B
Boards, like PUA hate, pickup artist hate.
- [13:22]
A
They were about guys who had tried.
- [13:24]
B
The things that I used to teach, for example, and like, didn't see success or had gotten scammed on a course. Yeah, not by us, but like, had gotten scammed on a course from like some other person was like, this all is a bunch of lies. Let's clown on these guys because they took our money and didn't give us any results. And I was sympathetic to that because they were. There was a lot of scams. But then it became like, by the.
- [13:43]
A
Way, this whole thing is hopeless and.
- [13:44]
B
Nobody gets results with this stuff. And I was like, well, that's not true. And it devolved into this craziness.
- [13:50]
A
But like, I guess my question is, how does the incel space go from like, hey, we're trying self improvement stuff and we're commiserating to, hey, we're trying.
- [13:59]
B
Self improvement stuff, but a lot of it's bull crap and a lot of scams. And then it became like, actually we're all losers and we should just all kill ourselves and we should be like the most nihilistic, cynical people on the Internet.
- [14:11]
A
When people say incel nowadays, that's what they're talking about, right?
- [14:15]
B
The sort of like dark underbelly of the Internet.
- [14:18]
A
They're not talking about dorks like me.
- [14:19]
B
Who are like, hey, I bet if we learned how to like talk to women, we could actually do it and it would work. You know, they're talking about like this dark underbelly of guy who's given up even on that.
- [14:28]
D
Yeah, no, they're not talking about just like sad, lonely man who's not getting laid.
- [14:31]
B
Right.
- [14:32]
D
That's not what this term means anymore. Part of it is just ossification. The guys who are upwardly mobile just don't have much incentive to hang around anymore. I mean, some of them are maybe doing a mitzvah by, you know, giving a hand up to the guys.
- [14:47]
B
Yeah, here's what worked for me. I did a lot of that and that's. That was how I started my business. Right. Because I Was like, I'm learning stuff that's working.
- [14:53]
A
Let me start a podcast that talks about this stuff. And you're right, though.
- [14:58]
B
A lot of clients that I had in my old business, the guys who.
- [15:01]
A
Really got it, you would eventually lose touch with them because they didn't become repeat customers.
- [15:05]
B
A lot of the time, they didn't hang around in our forum anymore because, you know, and I still get emails.
- [15:10]
A
From people that are like, jordan Harbinger, no way. I listened to your podcast in 2008, and then I met my girlfriend who.
- [15:17]
B
Became my wife, and I totally lost track of you.
- [15:19]
A
And I remember being like, that's kind.
- [15:20]
B
Of the best thing that can happen, right? Like, I would love it if you listen to my show now, but I.
- [15:25]
A
Don'T want somebody who's still asking me.
- [15:27]
B
For dating techniques 15 years in. That's unfortunate and very weird, right?
- [15:32]
D
Yeah. You solve the problem and you leave.
- [15:35]
B
Leave.
- [15:35]
D
And I think that's one of the things that was like. I mean, I took Jordan's course because I worked for that company that Shall Not Be Named. And I actually was, like, really impressed by how it was, like, mostly for guys who were like, you know, what I'd really like is to, like, get a girlfriend, you know, it wasn't like, oh, I just want to, like, bang a bunch of girls. It was like, I'd like a girlfriend, you know? But, yeah, you solve the problem and you leave. For the most part. Yeah, you don't want to be hanging around these guys much after. There's talk of the movement, you know, migrating to 4chan and that being the place where all this toxicity comes in. You mentioned it in the intro, but I just don't think it's accurate. I'm not really sure where they're supposedly migrating from because they have plenty of their own forums.
- [16:23]
A
So for Those who are unaware, 4chan.
- [16:25]
B
Is Nick, correct me if I'm wrong. It is the absolute sewer cesspool of the Internet. There's everything from casual misogyny to deep.
- [16:33]
A
Fake porn and other content that is.
- [16:37]
B
Actually insane that you don't or cannot find on other places on the Internet.
- [16:41]
A
And, I mean, think of the craziest.
- [16:43]
B
Subreddit that you can find of, like, people sticking weird dolls up their butts or something.
- [16:48]
A
And 4chan has, like, 10,000 times more.
- [16:51]
B
Of that and every flavor, pardon me.
- [16:54]
A
Using that word of that, that you could possibly think of and many things.
- [16:58]
B
That you would never think of. And it's just like a race to the bottom.
- [17:02]
A
Like, it is scraping the bottom of.
- [17:04]
B
The barrel in so many ways. And it's mostly images.
- [17:07]
A
Is that correct or is that wrong?
- [17:08]
D
This is a function of which boards you go to On4chan. 4chan is an anonymous image posting board with a bunch of sub boards. Kind of like Reddit. But I think it's. I always kind of explain it is like it's the opposite of Reddit. Like as on Reddit everyone's pretending to be smarter than they actually are.
- [17:24]
B
Right.
- [17:25]
D
And 4chan is full of smart guys pretending to be morons because they think, oh yeah, funny to act like an idiot on the Internet. And people talk about 4chan as if it's like the gathering point for all the mouth breathers on the Internet. And it's like you've either not been there or you're not getting the joke.
- [17:43]
A
That's true. I've gone in there several times for.
- [17:46]
B
Research and I'm like, wow, this person took a bunch of data and made an infographic about like some obscure topic and posted it. And then a bunch of other people are making memes based off that infographic.
- [17:56]
A
So at the very least these people.
- [17:58]
B
Knew how to like crunch data, turn.
- [18:00]
A
It into a visual, make the visual.
- [18:02]
B
Funny using graphic art programs, and then clown on that particular guy's actually really good work with like a high quality air quotes meme that all these people get.
- [18:13]
A
And it's very much like you have.
- [18:14]
B
To be a thinker to get a lot of this stuff. It's not all just like, here's my butthole.
- [18:19]
A
Lol.
- [18:19]
B
Right? It's not like that. That's the rest of the Internet.
- [18:22]
D
Yeah, yeah. I'm a 4chan defender and I've been on 4chan since like 2006, 2007. I mean, I've been on 4chan like forever. Yeah, there's a term for that, but I probably shouldn't use it on your show.
- [18:35]
B
Maybe not.
- [18:36]
A
I'm curious what it is though.
- [18:38]
D
The four channers out there, they know. They know. Anyway, back to the incel philosophy, there's an overlap between inceldom and manosphere ideas, which, like a lot of things on the Internet, began as this sort of grab bag that did include some toxic misogyny, but also was much more heavily dominated by like bonafide male oriented self help. And then the toxic elements kind of drove out the more nuanced aspects. And now it's just garbage. But 15 years ago it was like, yeah, there was garbage and there was stuff that was really good and there was stuff that was mediocre and there was stuff about, you know, this or that or the other. It was a total grab bag. And now it's just women are bad and men are awesome and if you're poor, you're a loser. And. But, you know, it didn't used to be like that. And the trajectory, I think, is very similar in that the toxicity chases out the more positive, noble, life affirming elements of it, leaving behind just the toxicity.
- [19:43]
A
This is such a metaphor for one.
- [19:46]
B
Of the reasons I stopped teaching the.
- [19:47]
A
Dating stuff, because we would be like.
- [19:50]
B
You said, the guys who would come in would be like, I just want a girlfriend. I want to get married and have kids. And like a lot of the other companies that were out there teaching it, especially some of the red pill stuff, was like, use bitches, bro.
- [20:00]
A
They're all terrible. And blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I got so.
- [20:03]
B
Sick of being like the. The drop of water in a barrel of oil, right? And being like, no, we're the white hat drug dealers, you know, it just didn't work.
- [20:12]
A
And then also you're right, like the toxic stuff, you'd be like, hey, you know, if you just worked really hard.
- [20:17]
B
On yourself, you would deserve what you want.
- [20:19]
A
And then the guys would go, huh, that sounds hard. What I'm going to do instead is complain about how the guys who have.
- [20:26]
B
Good genetics are always going to be a winner and then clown on you for giving me any advice to the contrary where I could maybe take some agency here.
- [20:33]
A
And I was like, why am I.
- [20:35]
B
Basically begging this moron, this loser mentality guy to like, get his shit together? It doesn't matter to me if you live in your mom's basement forever. I'm trying to help you. And they'd be like, lol, dork trying to help me. And you're just like, all right, bye.
- [20:48]
A
Right? The toxicity just chased out anybody who had more than two brain cells to rub together because it was an awful place to be.
- [20:55]
D
No, that's true. That's absolutely true.
- [20:57]
A
All right, everybody, quit crying on Reddit. Reality has better graphics. We'll be right back.
- [21:04]
B
This episode is also sponsored in part by Better Help.
- [21:07]
A
Every January, we all get hit with.
- [21:08]
B
That New Year, new you nonsense.
- [21:10]
A
And I'm like, hey, I can barely.
- [21:11]
B
Keep track of current me, thank you very much.
- [21:13]
A
That's where therapy comes in. A good therapist helps you spot the stuff. You're too close to see your patterns.
- [21:18]
B
Motivations, relationship issues, and betterhelp makes the.
- [21:21]
A
Whole process so easy.
- [21:22]
B
There's no reason not to start.
- [21:23]
A
You complete a quick questionnaire with 12 plus years of experience and a super high match success rate, BetterHelp will pair you with a therapist switch anytime if it's not a fit. These are legit professionals too. Fully licensed, strict code of conduct, all that. BetterHelp's got over 30,000 therapists, has helped.
- [21:38]
B
More than 5 million people, and live.
- [21:40]
A
Sessions average 4.9 out of 5 stars from over 1.7 million reviews. That is a whole lot of people who didn't try to fix everything alone. So if you want to start the year a little lighter, not reinvent yourself from scratch, BetterHelp is a great place to start.
- [21:53]
C
BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Jordan that's betterhelp.com Jordan.
- [22:04]
A
This episode is also sponsored by Wayfair. Every year when January rolls around, Jen and I get this itch to reorganize and declutter. Aside from aesthetics, when your space is cluttered, your mind feels cluttered too. It's like this low grade background stress. So this year we tackled one of our biggest pain points, the mudroom shoe situation. You know the one, the pile of shoes that multiplies monthly. Somehow we grabbed a new shoe storage setup from Wayfair and it instantly made the whole area feel calmer and more functional. No more tripping, no more where's that other shoe? Just organized. And the reason we went with Wayfair is they have everything. Not just shoe racks, they got practically everything for every room. Bedding with bath basics if you want that fresh start feeling stuff for kids, rooms to get them back on track, kitchen essentials for easy weeknight dinners, even work from home setups. So if the new year has you in that reset my life mode, Wayfair makes it really easy to refresh your space in one place on pretty much any budget.
- [22:53]
C
Get organized, refreshed and back on track this new year. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
- [23:06]
A
Don't forget about our newsletter, Wee BitWiser. It comes out just about every Sunday.
- [23:10]
B
We really love writing it. You guys seem to love reading it. We get a lot of responses to this. It is a great companion to the show.
- [23:16]
A
A little bit of wisdom from an.
- [23:17]
B
Episode from us to you.
- [23:18]
A
Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. But there is Kind of a tipping point where this stops being an unfairly.
- [23:28]
B
Mullig maligned movement of guys who are just lonely, they're just looking for a way to find a girlfriend.
- [23:32]
A
And it becomes what we now know, this festering sewer of hatred against women.
- [23:37]
D
Yeah, I think the Elliot Rodger attack is as good a place as any to mark as the cutoff point of that.
- [23:42]
A
Yeah.
- [23:43]
B
So for those who are again mercifully unaware, Elliot Rodger was an incel who went on a rampage killing in California in 2014 essentially because he was angry at women and he made really cringy, awkward videos about all of this.
- [23:57]
D
Yeah, incels call him the supreme gentleman, St. Elliot and er, to give you kind of a sense of who's kicking around in these these days. The thing is, he's actually a pretty good avatar for what we're talking about because he's not a bad looking guy. He came from money. The only thing keeping him from absolutely crushing it with women is that he had a total lack of social skills. I mean, you wouldn't really go so far as to like call him handsome, but looks are not his problem.
- [24:27]
A
Right?
- [24:28]
D
Looks are not the thing holding him back. He's fine looking. He was diagnosed with autism. He was also on Prozac and Xanax. Anyway, Elliot Rodger, he had a lot of social isolation. And while he did make some half assed efforts to do something about that, they were very half assed. Like he thought that screenwriting and inventing were shortcuts to riches. And then he gave up when he realized there was actual work involved. Okay, his parents were very supportive. They paid for his apartment and his college education. But he immediately flies into a rage when his black roommate tells him that he lost his virginity at 13.
- [25:08]
A
Is his roommate being black?
- [25:10]
B
Is that relevant?
- [25:11]
A
Like, why would this bother him?
- [25:12]
B
Also, this guy's all over the place, screenwriting, inventing.
- [25:15]
A
Like, he's clearly not passionate about any of this stuff.
- [25:17]
B
He just wants to what, find out how to get rich so he can. Because he thinks that's the primary lever of attraction with women. Am I jumping all over the place?
- [25:25]
D
No, no, that's reasonably accurate. He ha. He also has this whole line of resentment about how like black men get all the attention from pretty blonde girls on campus. A lot of where this goes from here is just gross resentment towards anyone who's happier with their life than he is. He starts hating everyone in Santa Barbara where he was going to college, especially couples. He followed a couple outside of Starbucks after he saw them kissing and threw his coffee on them.
- [25:55]
B
Scary.
- [25:55]
D
Yeah, that's assault.
- [25:56]
A
Yeah.
- [25:57]
D
He sees himself as a man of culture surrounded by philistines. He hates all couples. He decides that getting rich is the only way that he's ever going to get a girlfriend. So he starts buying Mega Millions tickets and then breaks his computer when he doesn't win.
- [26:12]
B
Oh, gosh.
- [26:12]
D
There's other incidents, like the Starbucks one. He shoots a bunch of teenagers with a Super Soaker filled with orange juice while they were playing kickball.
- [26:21]
A
He's a jerk. This is not a good guy.
- [26:23]
D
No, no, he's not. This is absolutely not a case of, oh, man, I feel bad for him, and I wish it hadn't come to that. Like, this guy was a time bomb waiting to go off. There was no way this was getting fixed. His parents hired life coaches for him and counselors, all kinds of stuff. You know, he had all kinds of family support. This is 100% not an example of someone who did not have any opportunity to lead a normal life. He had everything going for him. Everyone was trying to help him out before he decided he was going to kill people.
- [26:54]
A
Was he part of the incel community in any meaningful way?
- [26:57]
B
I mean, it's one thing to be a crazy guy with a manifesto. I'm assuming he had one of those because rampage killers usually do, especially narcissistic ones.
- [27:04]
D
Yeah, he did. He wanted to put women in concentration camps for artificial insemination and create a world where most men did not even know about the existence of women.
- [27:15]
B
That's so disturbing, to say the least.
- [27:16]
A
And so weird. So weird. Like, this thing triggers me because I can't have a girlfriend, thus, let's put.
- [27:22]
B
Them in concentration camps and dot, dot, dot, Handmaid's tale, the whole thing. It's like.
- [27:26]
A
And you think about that as a normal guy, and you're like, nah. Part of, like, the highlight of my day is hanging out with my beautiful.
- [27:33]
B
Daughter and my wife and, like, seeing young couples having a good time and, like, looking at attractive women and being like, wow, life is great. Isn't it amazing?
- [27:42]
A
Over, like.
- [27:43]
B
And he's the complete opposite of that. That it's scary that there's people like that out there.
- [27:47]
A
Honestly.
- [27:48]
D
Yeah. It's also kind of comical. I mean, it's like this is something out of a William Burroughs novel. On the one hand, yeah, it's super twisted, but on the other hand, it's sort of, like, darkly hilarious that he put this in a manifesto as if this ha. Like, this is not going to happen.
- [28:06]
B
Right.
- [28:06]
D
You know, this is Never going to happen.
- [28:09]
A
Right, right.
- [28:09]
D
And he's sitting there, you know, like he's Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber.
- [28:14]
B
Right.
- [28:14]
D
There's your Unabomber reference for the episode. Writing this brilliant, well crafted, deeply thought out manifesto. That's what he thinks he's doing here. And it's like it is disturbing on one level, but on another level it's like this is funny in a way because it's so bizarre. It sounds made up.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah. It's like if you were writing this guy as a character in a movie, I'd be like, eh, it's a little on the nose.
- [28:39]
D
Right. It wouldn't sound believable. If this was an episode of Law and Order, you would be like, man, they went a little overboard this week.
- [28:45]
B
But then it's Law and Order and you're like, ah, typical Law and Order episode.
- [28:48]
A
But anyways, who writes these things?
- [28:50]
B
But he was connected to the INCEL community. Right? He wasn't just some lone nut who couldn't get laid and finally snapped because.
- [28:55]
A
Of a host of psychological problems totally unrelated to his lack of success with women.
- [29:00]
D
Yeah, he posted a lot on PUA Hate, which you mentioned, and Forever Alone. Both of those are INCEL forums.
- [29:06]
B
Great branding on Forever Alone. Surprised that domain was available. Although then again, who wants to name their company that? So there's that.
- [29:13]
D
He bizarrely reached out for support@the bodybuilding.com forum, which.
- [29:17]
B
Oh God, why?
- [29:20]
D
I really don't know what he was thinking there. Because that place has all the compassion and support of a high school football team.
- [29:26]
B
Yes.
- [29:26]
D
Locker room.
- [29:27]
A
Guys, I need, I need help with women.
- [29:28]
B
Like.
- [29:29]
A
Of course you do, you fricking loser.
- [29:30]
B
I mean, I would just be terrified to post anything there.
- [29:33]
A
And I'm 45.
- [29:34]
D
Like the one big success story they had was I wrote about this ages ago, but it was this dude who's. Whose handle on there was wet breasts. And he was like, he was like my 600 pound life, bariatric bed, obese. And they like bullied him into losing 400 plus pounds and he was able to go lead a normal life. And then I think he scammed a bunch of people out of money, went to jail.
- [29:56]
B
Oh, okay.
- [29:57]
D
But he did lose a ton of weight because the bodybuilding.com forum guys were like, you know, mocked him until he lost weight. So that's their benevolent contribution to the world, I suppose. But yeah. So he does all this and then he goes and he kills six people.
- [30:11]
B
Elliot Roger.
- [30:12]
D
Yeah, yeah, not wet press. Elliot Roger killed six people. Two of Them were his roommates, two of them were members of a sorority that he targeted in his plans. And one of them was a friend of his roommate, and one of them was some random dude at a deli. And the irony here is that he killed more men than women, especially if you include himself. You know, he shot himself when he was done, as they often do.
- [30:35]
B
Yeah, of course, the peak level of cowardice, always called sort of capped with that, pardon the pun.
- [30:41]
A
So this is an extreme case, but.
- [30:42]
B
It'S also the most famous. Are there other similar examples of, I guess, incel violence on this scale?
- [30:49]
D
There's a specific category of terrorism called, not so surprisingly, misogynist terrorism. And there are 12 of these since 1984. I hate using Wikipedia as a source, but they have a page on misogynist terrorism and there's 12 incidents listed on it. That's all of the ones that the editors knew about. It's not just the ones with articles. So I'm kind of like okay with using 12 as the number because I couldn't find another comprehensive list of it. But if people have it, you know, I'm, I'm always willing to be corrected. 12 is of course 12 too many. But when someone starts talking about incel terrorism, keep in mind that we're talking about 12 incidents in the entire world over a span of 40 years. I don't think we need to get into the nasty weeds of each and every incident. But yes, Isla Vista Massacre. No one really is self identifying as an incel after this unless they have some deeply messed up feelings about women in general. Like, it's not a thing that, like, oh, I'm a sad, lonely man. I'm an incel. You don't see that after Elliot Rodger, it's all just like, you know, put women in concentration camps because I can't get a date.
- [32:03]
A
Right.
- [32:04]
B
It's like the most psycho level of stuff.
- [32:06]
A
Okay, so what are some of the.
- [32:08]
B
Messed up attitudes that you, you mentioned messed up attitudes that these guys have or messed up feelings? Tell me more about that. And man, I do feel like you're right though. It also goes beyond just negative attitudes.
- [32:17]
A
About women because there's some pretty toxic.
- [32:20]
B
Stuff in there about men while we're on the subject, but can you unpack that a little?
- [32:24]
D
Yeah, I think it's fair to say this is a more all encompassing toxic belief system that extends beyond just women. At its core in incel, involuntary celibate, you know, this just means you're not having sex, but you wish that you were. And like, there's lots of terms that mean more than their literal dictionary definition. And incel is one of them. You know, there's the dictionary definition of it. It's like, well. But really it kind of means these sketchy guys who hate women. The deeper theory and ideology here is that dating is monopolized by chads. Like, you know, I say Chad, you think some tall, buff, blonde guy and Stacy's. And she's his, you know, beautiful, perfect girlfriend. And these are the beautiful people. And they don't date down in terms of look. So you're just out of luck.
- [33:18]
A
Got it.
- [33:18]
B
Anyone again who's ever known a really.
- [33:20]
A
Funny, fat dude with a smokeshow for.
- [33:22]
B
A girlfriend just knows that this is not true. Going back to my buddy Jordan from high school, like, he just didn't need.
- [33:28]
A
To be tall or attractive physically, really, at all.
- [33:32]
D
Yeah, we all know that guy. He's an outlier. But the point remains. Like, I think men are much more likely to choose a partner based on looks.
- [33:39]
A
Yeah.
- [33:40]
D
And women are more into what you would call call status or aura or riz. Like they have something going for them beyond just being attractive. It could be money, whatever. Like, there's tons of starving artists out there with super hot wives and girlfriends. And it's not because women are gold diggers and they only go for guys with money. You know, it's like if these guys. A talented artist, that counts, you know, that's it. Like, I'm in love with him because he makes this wonderful art or he like, you know, drives a cool car. Like, you know what I mean?
- [34:09]
B
Like, hopefully not that shallow.
- [34:10]
A
But.
- [34:11]
D
Yeah. Right. But my point is, you know, you get my point that like your friend isn't. She's not just like, oh, he has a wonderful personality. It's like, no, he, he's like an over the top, larger than life. Yeah. Insanely charismatic.
- [34:24]
B
Everyone, like, everybody, right?
- [34:26]
D
Everybody likes him, you know, and it's like. And yeah, for some guys, it's. They have that kind of personality. For other guys is there in the band. For other guys, it's this or it's or it's that. Being a good looking man is generally not enough to get a hot girlfriend. You usually have to have. Like. And I don't think it really is ever enough because I don't think it's the thing that really attracts women. Like, they might go, yeah, he's a good looking guy. But like, so what? The world's filled with them. What else does he have kind of.
- [34:52]
B
Going on under The Hood Chads and Stacey's. This is going to be another one of those weird online subcultures with a lot of inside terminology.
- [35:00]
A
Are there key terms that they use that might be helpful for us to understand them?
- [35:04]
D
Well, I told you about foids. Black pill isn't exclusive to the incel community, but it basically means a nihilistic worldview. In the case of incels, that nihilistic worldview would be that genetics just determine everything. And if you're not, you know, a chad by nature, you're doomed to a life of loneliness. Or you need to spend all your time and energy trying to attain it by smashing your jaw with a hammer and cutting the fat out of your cheeks with a X acto knife or whatever.
- [35:33]
B
I gotta wonder how much of their attitude is a self fulfilling prophecy for these guys. Right? Like if you believe that, are you.
- [35:40]
A
Really going to try to beat that? No. Right?
- [35:43]
B
You're not going to try and like learn riz and be social and like.
- [35:46]
A
Lose a little bit of weight because you're, you're just going to go, well.
- [35:48]
B
I'm not tall enough and I'm not, I'm not a chad, so why bother?
- [35:52]
D
Yeah, and you're totally right, of course in the incel community it sometimes is a badge of pride to be black pilled. Like you're accepting the reality of despair rather than pying for this supposedly unrealistic dream of, you know, getting a girlfriend one day. I think that this gets at the very core of why people get into this subculture. It provides a very simple answer to their very complex pain.
- [36:18]
B
Yeah, right. And at the same time it also.
- [36:21]
A
Says that they don't really have to.
- [36:22]
B
Do anything about the situation because it's outside their ability to, to change.
- [36:26]
D
Well, there's looks maxing, right? Okay, the going to extreme measures to improve your looks, but kind of the only solution that they offer for the most part because they do bake into the. Even the ones who are like, oh yeah, I'm gonna chase after it. You know, it's baked into their analysis that like the only way that you can get a girlfriend is to get super ripped and get, you know, change your appearance basically. And PS Change your appearance to meet this very, very narrow definition of what all women find attractive. And it's like, you know, I can tell you that much like men, women are all different people and some of them find some things attractive and some of them don't find things attractive. There's no like one guy who's attractive to every woman on planet Earth. There's girls who are into chubby guys. There's guys who think short guys are hot. You know, there's girls who are into bald guys. There's all over the place what women are into. There's not. Like, you're not just gonna look like you're a men's fitness cover model and that's the only way that you're ever going to meet a girl who finds you attractive. It's just. This is not how it works.
- [37:32]
A
I get what you're saying, but you're.
- [37:34]
B
Not really doing a lot to dissuade me from the idea that these guys are all violent losers in their parents basement online and bitter about the fact that they can't get laid.
- [37:41]
D
Most of them are just mad on the Internet. I mean, the violence is really the exception.
- [37:45]
B
Okay.
- [37:45]
D
I also don't think it's fair to say that they're only mad about sex. I think when you get down to it, they feel excluded. And there's possibly quite probably in many other cases, a very good reason why they're being excluded. They're probably weird and awkward and unlikable.
- [38:04]
B
Yeah, it's harsh, but yeah, I get it.
- [38:05]
D
I have gone through intense periods of loneliness in my life and never once did I feel the need to start an account on incel forums like Pua Hate and talk about putting women in concentration camps.
- [38:19]
A
Yeah, same. That's fair. That is fair.
- [38:22]
D
But again, this is a fixable problem. Stop being such a weirdo. Take an interest in other people. Join a club. Learn a new skill. Get offline and meet people in the real world. Focus less on getting chicks and more on just being an interesting, engaged, and likable person. You know, none of this happens overnight, but I suspect that, like Elliot Rodger, a lot of these guys get enraged when they're not lining up dates with strippers and porn stars after their first Brazilian jiu jitsu class. Some of them may be socially engaged. They're just bad with women. Like, you know, you ran an entire business for guys who were. Who had a social life, but they just weren't very good at talking to women.
- [39:07]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It wasn't these specific guys. It was. My clients were very much more normal. Right?
- [39:13]
E
Yeah.
- [39:13]
D
No, your guys were different because they accepted responsibility for the situation and they decided to do something about it. That, that, you know, to some degree required a hard look at themselves and their own shortcomings and a willingness to do something about them. And it wasn't just, oh, I'm gonna go to the gym and get 20 inch arms and women are gonna be fainting in my presence or I'm gonna just go on a on some Internet forum and vent my spleen about how the world is unfair because I'm five foot three.
- [39:41]
A
If your idol is a mass murderer, maybe it's time to pick new hobbies. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quiltmind. If you're not on LinkedIn, it's probably a mistake. Not because it's so cool, but because it's practical. If you're trying to get hired, recruiters are there. If you run a business, people are absolutely looking you up before they take you seriously. LinkedIn is basically your credibility check. But here's the other mistake. Having a profile and never posting. Most people treat LinkedIn like a static resume. And that's leaving a ton of opportunity on the table because the moment you start posting, you instantly stand out. Hardly anyone does it consistently. Every time I post, I get a flood of DMs, people I haven't talked to in years saying, dude, that hit home and suddenly you're top of mind. Partnerships, interviews, opportunities, they start coming to you. That's not luck. That is visibility. That's why I use QuoteMind. They basically help execs get LinkedIn famous. In about 30 minutes a week. I hop on a quick call, they put out my stories and insights, turn them into short, punchy posts that actually sound like me. And they keep me accountable because my default setting is I'll do it later. Which, you know, means never curious what I'm sharing, look me up on LinkedIn. If you want quilt mind for yourself, shoot me a message or reach out to jordanaudiencewiltmind.com that's Jordanaudienceu. I l t m I n d com. I've got homes.com as a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows when it comes to home.
- [40:58]
B
Shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo.
- [41:00]
A
It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property.
- [41:04]
B
It's the location. It's the neighborhood.
- [41:06]
A
If you got kids, it's also schools.
- [41:08]
B
Nearby, parks, transportation options.
- [41:10]
A
That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth.
- [41:14]
B
Information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single time.
- [41:19]
A
And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep.
- [41:22]
B
Each listing features comprehensive information about the.
- [41:24]
A
Neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools.
- [41:28]
B
With test Scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
- [41:34]
A
So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Holmes.com we've done your homework. Thank you so much for listening to.
- [41:44]
B
And supporting the sponsors that support this show.
- [41:46]
A
All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com Deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday.
- [41:56]
B
Is there a connection between mental health and the INCEL phenomena?
- [42:00]
A
Because with our Elliot Rodger example, there's clearly something wrong with this guy that just he could have gotten a girlfriend.
- [42:06]
B
By some miracle a day later and it just. He's not going to get fixed. Right. This is not going to fix the problem. How common is that phenomenon that it's not just a problem with women per se, or like, the guys are just unattractive and they don't want to? It seems like it's an overall mental health problem where there's like a set of mental health problems in the INCEL community.
- [42:23]
D
I think you're right, but the issue is that it's hard to kind of quantify the overlap here. I mean, you can say on the one hand that guys who take to INCEL forums to deal with this problem have mental health issues. And I think you're probably right. But not everyone who has the INCEL problem does that, and not everyone with mental health issues is an incel. I mean, Elliot Rogers had some kind of autism spectrum disorder and there are tons of people, millions of people on the autism spectrum, who are, as we speak, leading very fulfilling and engaged lives. They have friends, they have girlfriends, wives, they're good parents, they're active in their communities. So I don't know, like, it's so difficult to quantify that overlap. And we have no idea who these guys are on these forums because they're anonymous or pseudonymous.
- [43:17]
B
Yeah.
- [43:17]
A
Is there any kind of data on.
- [43:19]
B
Who is using INCEL forums, like anything at all?
- [43:21]
D
We have one study of any significance and it was conducted by the British Home Office. It provides a very broad demographic view of these guys and who they are, but not much else. Everything that you're about to hear anytime I'm quoting a number statistic. It's from this one study in the British Home Office. The average age is 26. About half of them live with their folks, but 26% live alone. These are very high statistics for their age cohort to be either living alone or with their Parents and a whopping 25% of them screened positive for Autism Spectrum disorder traits. That does not mean that they have an Autism spectrum disorder. It means that they, they had traits of autism spectrum disorders.
- [44:11]
B
What's the racial dynamic like? Because I know in most people's minds this is a bunch of white dudes. Right?
- [44:16]
D
The racial demographics of the UK are much different than they are in the United States. But the Home Office study found that only 58% were white and 42% were non white.
- [44:30]
A
I have to admit I'm surprised by this.
- [44:31]
B
But this is in the uk, right? So maybe it's just a lot different here and that's skewing my perspective or I'm wrong.
- [44:37]
A
That is possible.
- [44:38]
D
Off the top of my head, I believe the UK is significantly whiter than the United States. Yes, that would.
- [44:44]
B
It would be even more mixed here.
- [44:45]
D
Right. We don't have the data on, you know, the side of the pond is they say there is this weird racial dimension to the incel thing where everyone is convinced that they're in the race that's not getting any girls. Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, Indian, whatever. Everyone is convinced that their race is a curse. Like that's the thing that's preventing them from getting a girlfriend.
- [45:09]
A
Is there any political dimension to it? I know that the manosphere is pretty.
- [45:14]
B
Right coded these days and it seems like there's an extreme or extremist masculine supremacist dimension to all this.
- [45:22]
D
Well, there might be, but this study from the UK shows us actually most of these guys identify as moderately left. So the Labour Party mainstream, basically the political culture of the UK is somewhat different from the United States. But to put it in terms, you know, listeners in the United States who I'm assuming most of the listeners can understand, they're just like, they're moderate democrats according to how they self report. You know, self reporting is always limited because it's based on self perception, which is not as accurate. But that's how they reported in this British study.
- [46:00]
B
Yeah, you always have to be careful with again our dick episode, we were.
- [46:03]
A
Like, oh, this study says, oh, it's all self reported.
- [46:06]
B
Well, throw this thing in the trash.
- [46:08]
A
Yeah, like no man would ever lie.
- [46:09]
B
About the size of his penis. Would they know? Okay. I mean, why would you even do a study like that anyway?
- [46:14]
A
Go on.
- [46:15]
D
Yeah, but I mean, the only way you would really do it is by like, I mean, it would be a whole other study where you'd ask them like 100 questions about what they think.
- [46:21]
A
About this or that politics, maybe you.
- [46:23]
B
Could suss it out, I think. For what The. The whole dick thing was a little more straightforward. No pun intended. Again, no pun intended.
- [46:30]
D
I didn't see a breakdown of how many identified as moderately left in the study. It was either many or most. It was really vague. Many could mean 16 out of a thousand. I think I saw. I think I saw it represented both ways. There was one thing I read about, it said many and one said most. So who knows? I think the takeaway here is that this is much more complicated. And also I think that to a certain extent these guys are siloing off the incel thing from the rest of their lives.
- [47:04]
A
I'm guessing that most of these guys are going to be broken is a.
- [47:06]
B
Joke, but you're about to tell me that they're all rich tech entrepreneurs or something. Like, all my stereotypes that I thought I had nailed were way off on this.
- [47:14]
D
The British Home Office study doesn't provide any information about their income, but we do know that 80% of them are not employed or in education full time. Okay, so they may not be NEETs, but they're not full time employed or full time in education.
- [47:32]
A
Got it.
- [47:33]
D
Only 4% of them are in full time employment. But this is another chicken egg thing. Are they awkward creeps because they're not working full time or are they not working full time because they're awkward creeps?
- [47:46]
B
That is pretty bleak, man. And I know you mentioned NEETs. I know we have this segment of the population in the US as well. To be clear. It's called neat.
- [47:54]
A
N E E T Not in education.
- [47:56]
B
Employment or training, AKA not really going anywhere.
- [48:00]
A
Probably living in their parents basement kind of thing.
- [48:02]
B
Like they're just not moving forward. Nothing. And they're not doing anything.
- [48:05]
A
And it's disturbing because it's actually not.
- [48:07]
B
A small number of people. They're going nowhere.
- [48:10]
A
They're aimless. And a bunch of aimless men in their 20s, 30s and 40s, that is.
- [48:15]
B
Potentially a very dangerous segment of society. I think the term Nick would use is powder keg.
- [48:21]
A
Am I wrong?
- [48:22]
D
No, it is. It's absolutely powder keg. Like, yeah, the military fighting age. Men who don't feel like they have any stake in society, have no hope for the future and nothing to live for. You do not want a bunch of these guys in your society.
- [48:36]
B
Right.
- [48:37]
D
It is not safe socially to have too many of these guys sitting around because they get attracted to extremism and you know, like the extreme of the extreme do dangerous things. It's dangerous. I suspect that there's this kind of feedback loop with a lot of these guys who are neets or neat adjacent. They have trouble finding a job because they're a little awkward. But they get more and more awkward the longer that they don't have a job because they're not out being around people having to be normal. You won't be surprised to hear that 86% of the men in the British study reported having been bullied. But hey, I've been bullied and I'm not an incel.
- [49:19]
B
Okay, Nick Sex haverpell over here.
- [49:21]
D
Yeah, put that on my tombstone, buddy. This is probably the most depressing stat, but 1 in 5, that's 20% reported having daily suicidal ideation over the last two weeks.
- [49:36]
B
That seriously sucks. And you're making me feel bad for incels, which, you know, I kind of.
- [49:40]
A
Didn'T really want to do on the.
- [49:41]
B
Episode, but yeah, that's really dark.
- [49:44]
D
Yeah, it's sad. I think there's a happy medium you can come to and say that this is tragic, but their biggest problem is that they can't get out of their own way. Like I said earlier, you know, assume they have an autism spectrum disorder. So do millions of other people who aren't just leading functional lives, they're leading vibrant, exciting, fulfilling lives. Having an autism spectrum disorder or major depressive disorder or some other, you know, non trivial problem is not an excuse to give up and become a loser who spends all day on pua hate talking about how much he hates voids. If you want help, you know, an incel or somebody you think is trending in that direction, give them a little tough love, get them to log off and maybe bully them to find some other less antisocial use of their time.
- [50:41]
A
Why do you think these guys seek help on Internet forums rather than through more traditionally and potentially more helpful resources? Because it seems like if you're circling this drain, go get a therapist for God's sake.
- [50:53]
D
I think that there are some people who are so socially maladjusted that they don't know what's the proper way to seek help and what isn't. And beyond that, you can recite the usual litany of reasons people don't seek professional help for mental health issues. They don't have the resources, they're afraid of the stigma against seeking help. They reject the concept of therapy in general.
- [51:15]
B
What kind of hope is there for these people once they get, you know, I don't want to say trapped in these communities because obviously they're the ones who are doing it and they have agency. But I think that once you cross that line, it's a bit like quicksand where you just. You get sucked in. Is that a fair assessment of the situation?
- [51:30]
D
Yeah, I think that's more or less fair. In general, I'm sort of curious about how much of the INCEL phenomenon is just guys punching the wall online. I mentioned. Are they siloing this off from the rest of their lives? I think in a lot of cases they probably are. They go online, they punch the wall, they rage, and then they go back to being normal as soon as they close their laptop. I really think a non trivial portion of these guys go log on, rage, log off, and then touch grass and kind of act semi normal for the rest of their time on earth. And hey, you know what people are just sort of barely waking up to is that the entire Internet is one big echo chamber. The algorithm is curated to show you what you think you want at any given moment. And it turns out that a lot of what you want to see is rage bait. Do you know what Twitter shows me more than anything?
- [52:27]
A
What does X formerly known as Twitter.
- [52:29]
B
Show you more than anything?
- [52:30]
D
Anti Semitic. Leftists. Sure. Protestants who really, really hate Catholics.
- [52:35]
A
Okay.
- [52:36]
D
And people who are still following COVID protocols like they're the last imperial Japanese soldier in the jungles of the Philippines fighting for the glory of the emperor in 1965. Like that's what Twitter wants to show me because it knows that that's what pisses me off. The algorithm shows you what you engage with, and what you engage with is probably going to be something that makes you mad. I built an entire career around this at one point in my life, so this is not really news to me. But some people still need to be told, or at least reminded.
- [53:11]
A
Yeah, but how did that work out for you?
- [53:13]
D
Well, about as well as crying on an INCEL forum is working out for these guys.
- [53:17]
B
Right? Okay, fine.
- [53:20]
D
The other thing is that there's a sense of being in an in group and having a shared jargon. Probably the closest thing to the incel phenomenon is the QAnon movement. The black pilling aspect, there's the whole us versus them, the weird inside code. Mostly. I think the common denominator is that you have no agency and everything is just fated to happen a certain way. And it explains everything. You know, it just explains everything for you.
- [53:46]
A
These kind of Internet cults around conspiracy.
- [53:49]
B
Theories are surprisingly common online.
- [53:51]
A
So what makes this relevant to the rest of us? If it's a niche Internet cult, will.
- [53:55]
B
Any of us Normies ever even come.
- [53:58]
A
Into contact with these folks or their.
- [54:00]
B
Beliefs outside of 4chan?
- [54:02]
D
Maybe, maybe not. I mean, I think it's kind of the bleeding radical edge of what people have called the male loneliness epidemic. I know some people, including your listeners, will dispute that such a thing exists, but I do know that a lot of guys, at least subjectively, feel lonely. And guess what? If you feel lonely, you're lonely. That's what loneliness is.
- [54:25]
A
Yeah, it's a feeling.
- [54:27]
D
It's a feeling. I think the risk of violence is small, but the violence is, I think, disproportionate in scale to their numbers. As I mentioned earlier, you know, having multiple generations of fighting age men who feel that they have no stake in society and nothing to lose is an absolute powder keg. People have literally no idea how dangerous this phenomenon can be because they're used to living in these safe, secure, affluent, liberal, democratic western societies that they very much take for granted. And you should not, because there are multiple examples of stable societies with broad middle classes and nice places to live. To kind of boil it down, they were like that one week and the next week they were hell on earth. And there is nothing special about where you live that prevents it from being that. With regard to the incel phenomenon tying it back to this, the more hopeless men you have, the more incels you're going to have and the radical edge of this, these are the guys who are going to start acting like Hezbollah in Beirut, not the guys who just mope back and forth to and from work every day. You know, like, oh, radicalization. And it's like 35 people. 35 people can break a lot of dishes if they're motivated enough. Yeah, that's the issue. And so, yeah, I think society has a stake in there being fewer of these guys around.
- [56:00]
A
But you don't think there's a lot.
- [56:01]
B
Of hope for the guys on the forums. From the sound of it, you don't see any way out for them really. So what's there to be done about any of this? I mean, we're not going to have state mandated girlfriends.
- [56:11]
D
No, no, we're not. I think someone proposed that, but I'm sure they did. Yeah, there are ex incels out there, but you don't hear about them because first of all, who the hell wants to be the spokesman of for the ex incel community? And second of all, because they're almost by definition leading normal lives that aren't really all that remarkable or interesting. They build social skills, they join communities, they get some kind of purpose in their life that isn't plastering the Internet with toxicity for 17 hours a day. And they move on. And it's like this weird, embarrassing thing that they used to be into. You know, fitness therapy, religion, mentorship, hobbies. These are all very low hanging fruit. Can anybody become handsome? No. But I do suspect there's some truth to the idea that you're not ugly, you're just poor.
- [57:05]
B
Meaning what exactly?
- [57:06]
D
I mean, look at Elon Musk. Before he had Bunny, his hair plugs went a long way. So much of what makes someone attractive is how they present what they have. So the looks maxers are onto something. If you take care of your skin, you get a better haircut. Hit the gym, give yourself six months to a year, and boom, tons of people probably won't even recognize you. Beyond that, your problem with women is probably not even your looks. It's probably that you lack social skills. Or maybe you just lack social skills. As they apply to women, there is a different set of social skills for chumming it up with the guys. Because I'm going to, you know, let everybody in on a very controversial secret. Men and women are different.
- [57:52]
A
Fire up those angry emails.
- [57:53]
B
People can't say that anymore.
- [57:56]
D
Yeah, women are not just men with boobs. Sorry, people. I think mocking incels can backfire. But if you're friends with one of these dudes, I mean, I don't know, man. I had this friend who was like practicing Germanic paganism and doing like weird rituals to Thor and stuff. And I like, I bullied the crap out of him about it. And he's an orthodox Christian now, so.
- [58:21]
A
The Jordan Harbinger show does not endorse bullying your friends into or out of different religions. Okay, bullying them to get off the computer, fine. Bullying them out of a cult, probably also. Fine. Bullying them into your cult. Slow down, folks.
- [58:37]
D
I mean, bullying may be the wrong word, but yeah, men respond to disapproval from other men, Especially when it's men that they respect or admire. I don't think it's at all inappropriate to apply a little negative reinforcement on a friend who has decided to wallow in his own misery with a total lack of self reflection. I mean, let your conscience be your guide here.
- [59:01]
B
Sure, I think you're right about that.
- [59:02]
A
There's mean bullying where you're just terrorizing.
- [59:04]
B
Somebody and then there's like giving your buddy a hard time about something that.
- [59:07]
A
You should absolutely be giving him a hard time about to motivate him to.
- [59:11]
B
Get his shit together.
- [59:12]
D
Right. And you also offer support you know, hey, why don't you come to the gym with me? I'll let's sign up for a karate class together or let's go to the driving range on Saturday and hit some balls or go on a hike or whatever. I think men tend to do better with activity centered hangs and that's you do that and then they start, you know, opening up through the course of those hangs on a long hike or something. These are also the kinds of things that can get them involved in other communities that are probably not just healthier, but a lot more fulfilling for them personally than endlessly posting on Forever Alone. So like, hiking is a kind of a lazy example, but like, yeah, you know, like I found a passion for hiking because my friend dragged me on a number of hikes and now I'm in this trail runner group and oh, whoa, would you know it. There's girls that are into this too or just like other guys that I can become friends with and that boosts my confidence and gets me off of pua hate for the day. I absolutely detest and abhor these attempts to like reframe masculinity and like turn guys into these domesticated liberal house pets that this is some kind of like new masculinity. But at the same time, masculinity is definitely not about whining on a forum and throwing your life away while you tunnel deeper and deeper into this pit of self pity and complete despair.
- [60:34]
B
I think the main takeaway here is that not all these guys are monsters or memes. They're just lonely guys who have a very toxic way to explain why they're lonely in a very toxic community that.
- [60:45]
A
Reinforces both their feelings of loneliness and.
- [60:48]
B
Their antisocial explanation of why they're lonely.
- [60:51]
A
In the first place. At the same time, dating is now difficult, man. You used to meet people through friends or family or even through shared activities.
- [60:58]
B
Now someone is going to decide in half a second if they want to swipe right on you or if they want to move on to one of the other 500,000 people in their area that they could be dating.
- [61:07]
A
And that means a lot of people, men and women, are struggling to figure.
- [61:11]
B
Out how to find partners that might.
- [61:12]
A
Make their lives more fulfilling. The problem isn't living in that reality.
- [61:17]
B
We all do.
- [61:17]
A
The problem is when you abdicate agency for how that reality impacts your life and then you start blaming other people for your problems. Are chiseled, jacked billionaires always going to have desirable partners?
- [61:29]
B
Probably.
- [61:30]
A
But that doesn't mean you can't find.
- [61:32]
B
Someone to be happy with that will enrich your life.
- [61:34]
A
And ultimately, that's what this is all about. It's not about celibacy as such. It's about guys feeling super lonely and pursuing terrible pseudo solutions in their quest.
- [61:43]
B
To do something about that loneliness.
- [61:46]
A
Thanks, as always, to writer and researcher Nick Pell for helping me separate the.
- [61:49]
B
Rejection from the radicalization.
- [61:51]
A
Thanks, Nick, and thanks to you all for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of skeptical Sunday to Jordanordanharbinger.com that's me. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show. All searchable and clickable@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.
- [62:08]
B
You can also connect with me on.
- [62:09]
A
LinkedIn and this show. It's created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm sure not your lawyer. Also, we try to get these episodes as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it's fact checked, so consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism.
- [62:41]
B
And knowledge we doled out today.
- [62:43]
A
In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What if everything you've been told about building wealth is total bs? Scott Galloway joins me to dismantle the myths and lay out a brutally honest roadmap to financial security in today's economy.
- [63:00]
E
The greatest bump in mortality for men is one when their spouse dies and two when they stop working. And when they lose their social fabric and their purpose, they get inactive, sometimes depressed. And when you get inactive and depressed, your brain kind of sends out a hormone or a message saying, oh, it's time to die. This person isn't adding any value. Supposedly, for every additional year you work, your life expectancy actually goes up. So what they don't teach you is the smart thing to do is the moment you have assets, start diversifying. And here's the thing. You don't need to be a hero. You don't need to find the needle in the haystack. Figure out what you're good at. Find a way to save more than you spend. Realize how fast time is going to go and diversify. This is what you become passionate about is when you get to our age, you become really passionate about taking care of your kids. You become really passionate about taking care of your parents and being able to take your spouse to really wonderful places. You become passionate about the absence of stress from your relationships that not having economic security injects into every relationship. Success in entrepreneurship is your ability to endure rejection, ability to endure failure. And entrepreneurship is really just a synonym for salespeople. Don't be an idiot. Follow these simple equations and you're going to be fine. Develop economic security for you and your family by finding something you're great at at make some money. Save some money. Understand how fast time is going to go and diversify.
- [64:26]
A
If you've ever wondered why working hard isn't enough, check out episode 1074 with Scott Galloway.
- [64:37]
F
This podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are the things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.