1278: Afraid You Could Lose Her Off-Grid with Abuser | Feedback Friday

Summary

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The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1278: Afraid You Could Lose Her Off-Grid with Abuser | Feedback Friday
Date: January 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally powerful Feedback Friday, Jordan Harbinger, Gabriel Mizrahi, and producer Scrunch Pants field listener questions about complex family conflict and difficult relationships. The standout letter revolves around a woman’s fear for her sister, who may be isolated by her abusive husband in the Canadian wilderness. The hosts, with their signature empathy and wit, examine red flags, family dysfunction, and how to intervene—or accept the limits of intervention—when a loved one refuses help. Other letters touch on parental criticism of foster adoptive parents and disentangling from an emotionally exhausting friendship. The team delivers both validation and practical advice, spicing it with memorable banter and moments of dark humor.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Off-the-Grid Abuse and Family Inaction [07:33–28:50]

Situation:
A listener fears her abusive brother-in-law will isolate or even harm her sister and kids by moving them to a remote cabin in Canada. The family minimizes the risk, avoids conflict, and offers no safe escape plan.

Analysis & Advice:

• Red Flags for Escalating Abuse:
  • History of violence and brain trauma doesn’t excuse, but may explain behavior. The hosts refuse to buy the “impulse control” excuse for violence but acknowledge TBIs can complicate personality (08:09–09:34).
  • Isolation, secretiveness, and disregard for consent (“he bought land 2,500km away without discussing it”) are classic abuser tactics (10:14–10:48).
• Family Denial and Dysfunction:
  • “My family is the type to sweep things under the rug and pretend things are all fine…we would all rather watch someone slowly die than confront the fact that we could save them.” (12:03)
    Gabriel: "Sadly, very common. But man, this is how bad things happen." (12:43)
  • Mother’s minimization (“Property was cheap, I guess,” 13:11) infuriates the hosts, pointing to the deep roots of avoidance and failure to protect.
• Victim’s Dilemma:
  • Lack of resources, no safe place to land, and a family unwilling/unable to help explains why abuse survivors stay.
  • “Without her husband, my sister is in a really perilous place…She also doesn’t have a place to land if she tried.” (12:47)
• How to Support an Isolated Victim:
  • Empathy over Confrontation: Build rapport and trust before urging escape ("It’s very similar to talking to someone in a cult…If you come right out and say, ‘Yo, you’re in a cult, you’re insane, you’ve got to get help,’ they’re going to shut down." (21:08))
  • Ask, Don’t Tell: Use strategic, open-ended questions to help her see objective reality (“What do you think the kids make of the way he treats you? What do you think they’re learning?” (23:35))
  • Harm Reduction: If immediate escape isn’t feasible, urge her to at least delay the move and keep options open (24:09–24:32).
  • Be the Lifeline: Even after moving, maintain trust and communication so she knows she has a way out later (21:56).
• Acceptance and Anxiety:
  • Sometimes all you can do is accept your powerlessness, grieve, and channel anxiety into constructive support.
  • Scrunch Pants: “Acceptance does not mean peace…it just means recognizing that there’s only so much she can do here…and then it’s up to our friend here to live with the fear, dread, sadness and grief” (25:12).
• Powerful Reflection:
  • Obsessing when powerless is a way many cope with helplessness—sometimes it replaces real intervention (27:26–28:19).
  • Scrunch Pants: "I know when I feel like I can’t do anything about a problem, I’ll just obsess about it…as if obsessing moves the needle, when really it just makes me miserable"(28:05).
• Resources Provided:
  • Listeners are encouraged to check the show notes for domestic violence resources, including shelter information, expert interviews, and hotlines (24:55–25:07).

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan: “It’s very similar to talking to somebody in a cult…You need to build rapport. You need to invest in the foundation that will allow your sister to go, ‘Okay, I can admit that something is very wrong here.’” (21:08)
• Gabriel: “If the worst ever did come to pass…anyone looking at this history would go, ‘Ok, well, all the signs were there. Years of abuse, isolation, dependency, creepy cabin in the woods…’” (17:53)
• Scrunch Pants: “I feel very alone in my panic and anxiety. I feel like I’ve been ostracized from my own family…I’m angry and deeply sad. But I’m also not sure if I’m overreacting.” (15:05)

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2. Foster Parenting, Family Criticism, and Intergenerational Conflict [31:57–49:56]

Situation:
Adoptive parents of four high-needs kids are criticized and undermined by their own parents, who refuse to understand trauma, blame all issues on parenting, and show favoritism among grandchildren. A recent blowout with a brother (who repeated the criticisms) has led to a strained family relationship.

Analysis & Advice:

• Triggers and Unfairness:
  • The hosts praise the letter-writer’s honesty, noting that while no parent is perfect, assigning blame to adoptive parents for their kids’ trauma- and drug-exposure-related struggles is cruel and factually wrong (33:15–36:14).
• Navigating the Conversation:
  • Set Clear Goals: Go in with a plan—acknowledge imperfection, share the reality and complexity of their situation, and try for mutual understanding (39:28–40:49).
  • Frame Feedback Appropriately: Use “When you say X, I feel Y because Z” to focus on the effect of words, not just intent (41:16–42:42).
  • Draw Healthy Boundaries: If the pattern can’t change, explain you’ll have to pull back from the relationship to protect your family (44:15–44:41).
  • Distinguish Facts from Narrative: Address interpretations—just because parents seem dismissive doesn’t mean their opinions are solely about struggle or success (45:49–46:16).
• Consider the ‘Grain of Truth’:
  • Take seriously any valid criticism—are they hitting a tender spot for a reason? Are there improvements worth making?
• On the Brother:
  • Narrate and explain your anger (“I’m angry because I’m hurt…You haven’t spent enough time with us to judge our parenting,” 47:14–48:01).

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan: “The only way we get better at this stuff is by doing it and doing it imperfectly and learning.” (39:33)
• Scrunch Pants: “Why is family so good at pushing your buttons? Because they put the buttons there in the first place.” (35:08)
• Gabriel: “It does suck that your parents only see you guys in one context or when things get tough and then they’re like, yeah, you guys are to blame for all this. That does seem unfair.” (33:11)

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3. Dealing with a Toxic, Insecure Friend [50:31–58:55]

Situation:
A listener’s once-fun friend, Lily, spirals into deep insecurity and control. She repeatedly demands to know who is ‘closer,’ polices social group dynamics, and blames others for her growing isolation, refusing therapy or feedback.

Analysis & Advice:

• Recognizing the Pattern:
  • The letter is a case study in self-fulfilling prophecies; Lily’s behaviors push people away and validate her insecurities.
  • “She wants people to change who they are in order to feel better about herself.” (54:07)
• Limits of Helping:
  • The listener is praised for her sustained empathy, even as she is pushed to exhaustion. She’s done her duty.
  • “I would not engage with her. I would keep my distance. I would just focus on yourself and other people. It’s really that simple.” (58:24)
• When to Let Go:
  • No room for martyrdom: “She has to find her own answers. The only thing you need to do is hold this boundary.” (58:05–58:09)
• Aging Out of Tolerance:
  • Jordan: “Once you turn 28, 29, 30, your patience for the Lilys of this world plummets, goes way down…Life is too short to put up with this kind of insanity.” (58:35–58:44)

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4. Bonus: Sharing Goals and the Value of Silence [63:35–70:10]

Situation:
A listener asks when to share personal projects/ambitions versus holding them close.

Analysis & Advice:

• Check Your Motivation:
  • “Are you opening up to get real support and help, or to avoid the real work?” (65:23–66:27)
• Gauge the Recipient's Response:
  • Share a little, see how it lands before going deeper (69:36–69:57).
• Protect the Seed:
  • Sometimes, holding something close shields your excitement or creativity from unnecessary negativity or skepticism in the early stages (66:53–67:20).

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan: “There’s no real textbook rule here. It’s more about being thoughtful and self-aware and considering your audience. It’s really an art as opposed to a science.” (69:58–70:05)

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Notable Banter and Quotes

• On Pixar moms and dance classes:

  • “Pixar mom's mad thicc.” — Jordan (00:25)
  • “The only place you drag your wife is salsa. And she loves it.” — Scrunch Pants (09:44)

• On the remote cabin plan:

  • “That’s one entire United States away from the nearest Wendy’s, if my calculations are correct!” — Scrunch Pants (14:10)

• On toxic friendship demands:

  • “Who has the time? It’s not your sister.” — Jordan (56:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:33–28:50] — Sister in Abusive, Isolating Marriage: Red Flags, Family Avoidance, Strategies for Intervention
• [31:57–49:56] — Foster Parenting, Parental Judgment, Navigating Intergenerational Conflict
• [50:31–58:55] — Toxic Friendships: Boundaries and Letting Go
• [63:35–70:10] — Sharing Ambitions: When Silence Beats Speakers

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Tone and Takeaways

As ever, The Jordan Harbinger Show walks a line between sober clinical insight and caustic humor, keeping both hosts and listeners engaged with relatable jokes, vulnerable admissions, and a clear focus on action over hand-wringing. Listeners are encouraged to show radical empathy—without sacrificing self-respect or boundaries—when navigating complex relationships.

Top Takeaways:

• Support abuse survivors by building trust and gently inviting reflection, not confrontation.
• Be clear about your own goals before entering family conflict; boundaries are as important as vulnerability.
• You can “wish someone well from afar,” and walking away is sometimes the kindest choice for all.
• With both ambition and relationships, thoughtful self-awareness trumps either secrecy or oversharing.

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For further resources on domestic violence, boundary-setting with family, or dealing with toxic friendships, see the show notes at jordanharbinger.com, or consult organizations listed during the episode.

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Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer the Scrunch Pants wedging into this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Existential crevasse of life conundrue Gabriel Mizrahi.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Scrunch pants. Those are the yoga pants that make your butt look better. Is that what you're talking about?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They ride up your crack and they make you look like a gym influencer, right?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Or a mother in a Pixar movie for some reason.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, that is one of the funniest memes out there. So how Pixar mothers for some reason. What's a polite word here? Pixar mom's mad thicc.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I actually did not realize that was even a thing until I saw those memes. I clearly have not been watching Pixar movies.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You're focused on the wrong thing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to be.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Paying attention to the beautiful animation and.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Excellent storytelling, but people online like to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Point out that there be some freaks over at Pixar.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Apparently all the moms in the movies have absolute dump trucks.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

There's a reason they win Oscars and it's not geniuses like Michael Arndt, I can tell you that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Former show guest no, no, it's not.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The world class storytelling.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's the mom butts. Anyway, on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Can use to impact your own life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Former cult members, arms dealers, gold smugglers, money laundering experts. This week we had Isabel Boymke, author of Rad the Untold Story of Nuclear Electricity and How It Will Save the World. We debunk myths and misinformation about nuclear energy, talk about the many benefits of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nuclear power, from powering cities to desalinating.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Water with the smallest environmental footprint of any energy source.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Go nuclear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And we talk about how our culture might be fumbling the bag a little bit on the cleanest, most powerful energy source in human history. I also sat down with Colton Scrivener on morbid Curiosity, why we humans are attracted to gross, gory and dangerous things. Super interesting psychology. There's we also had a skeptical Sunday.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Last Sunday on Incels. Speaking of strange psychology.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites and try to contain the Chernobyl grade clusters in our inbox every week.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

If you think about it, Feedback Friday as really the clean nuclear energy of the advice world.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Call us Edison, the way we're keeping.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

The lights on around here before we dive in. A few days ago, Jordan and I had a meeting and he was running a few minutes late. I was too, for reasons.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Uh huh. Because you couldn't find parking at your mom's house.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

There were no guest spots open in my mom's garage. Okay. So I had to wait for her to leave so I could take her spot. Because, yeah, I'm staying with her while I'm in la.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Shout out to Robin. We love Robin, the woman who introduced.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Me to Alfred Hitchcock movies.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

That was a special night. I like that night.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whenever I see your mom, I think about the movie.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Rebecca. Amazing movie.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, great memory. You on the couch, just riveted. I will never forget that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

People probably don't know that your mom is like a really, like, knows a crazy amount about film and film history.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Film buff.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I probably never seen an Alfred Hitchcock movie, really? Unless I was a little kid, like just on TV passively.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I'm watching this and I'm basically getting real time director's cut ish type of commentary from your mom. And I was like, wow, this movie's.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Way better when someone's like, the way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They filmed this was this. And what this metaphor is. It was really cool.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, it was amazing.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

It's way more fun when you're sitting with somebody who's genuinely nerding out on a movie.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

It's cool. Anyway, yeah. Running late to our meeting because. Yeah, because I'm homeless. And I asked Jordan what his holdup was and he goes, sorry, I got out late from dance class.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's true. I am not denying it's not my daughter's dance class.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Not your daughter's. Your own dance class? My co host is in dance class.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I thought you would be proud of me.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I am proud of you. But after all of the vicious roasts about my dance workshops, I find out you're secretly taking salsa classes with Jen. What is this?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the salsa class. So I originally wanted to take tango.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Cause I was like, I can do this. I saw a tango demo and I was like, this looks easier than other kinds of dancing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, it's very different from hippie flailing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And forced intimacy class. The stuff your interpretive dance or whatever you signed up for.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

It was not interpretive dance, but okay. Fair enough. But still, I love that you did not Tell me this. You just were gonna wait for me to find out, or you just. You didn't want me to know?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was kind of hoping to keep.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It a secret forever.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

So was this your idea or was this Jen's idea?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was my idea. So I was in Patagonia, and I was like, oh.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Someone was like, oh, yeah, I got my wife this for Christmas. And I was like, oh, my God, I have to buy my wife a Christmas present at some point. Not that I've totally forgotten, but I was on vacation. I wasn't thinking about it, and I.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Was just at a loss, because when Jen needs something, she buys it. And I don't know what she's looking.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

At on her phone at 1am on Instagram or anything like that. So I was like, hey, I wonder.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If we should do some tango.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Because, again, I was in Argentina and I'd seen tango down there. I was like, we should do something together.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She'll love it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So that. That's. Yeah, it was like, let's do something together.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Well, I love that. And now, unfortunately, I cannot make fun of it. So congratulations. So are you enjoying it? Is it fun?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, yeah, the teacher is really good.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The teacher makes or breaks any kind of that you do, especially for a physical skill. Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because last time I took a dance class, it was kind of like, why can't you do this? Your wedding's coming up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, my God. It's not that hard. What's your problem? Which is like, you know, every.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Not a fun vibe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not a fun vibe. He wasn't a bad teacher, but he.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Was rightfully frustrated with me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And this is, like, before I got.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In shape and everything.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

My memory of your wedding is that you nailed the dance.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I did nail the dance, yes. After a ton of hard work.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Because I've been to weddings where the bride and groom do the dance classes and then they butcher it when it comes time to do it. But you guys were flawless.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Jen and I don't crack under pressure, so there's that.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Okay, but this guy's more positive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He's more positive. And also I was like, he's like, oh, you're enjoying this. And I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of, like, screwing around. And I used to screw around in.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The other dance class. And the teacher was like, come on, man.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You have limited time. And this teacher's like, no, I love that little, like, funny thing you just did.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, let's work that in, or whatever. And I'm like, oh, that's cool.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Sounds like a cool Teacher. I like this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's fun. Yeah. And just salsa's, like, playful and silly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Whereas ballroom stuff is like, no, your.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Left foot goes three inches to the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Left, and if you don't do it right, she's gonna trip over you, and everyone hates you.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Much more regimented. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. So salsa's like, hey, you're two drinks in, and you, like, meet some girl at a bar, and it's like, I'm.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Spinning her around and all this stuff. It's cool.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's just more fun. And the stakes are zero.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right? Because it's like, if I don't learn.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This in a year, nothing happens.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That is, as opposed to being embarrassed in front of all my family and friends and my new wife at my wedding.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I did fully even think about the pressure of that. Like, having to do that at your wedding in front of everybody, that changes the whole experience. Now you're just doing this because it's fun.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. So after our wedding dance, Jen wanted to keep dancing, and we dropped a bunch of cash on lessons. And I was like, I hate this. I'm not going anymore. And so we, like, basically ditched it. And then five or seven years later, however, I think it's been seven plus years, we go back to the dance studio, and they're like, oh, hi. We remember you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What's up? And we're like, do we have a credit with you guys? And the new owner's like, no, because.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I inherited this business with, like, a hell of debt or whatever after the pandemic.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And he's like, but I will give you some free lessons if you promise.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You'Re not just gonna quit. And I was like, well, if we quit, I'll pay you for your time.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

That's nice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So he gave me a bunch of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Free lessons, and I'm like, this is awesome. So now we're just staying there.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I love this. Well, I'm a big fan. I just, you know, found it curious that you didn't come right out and tell me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, I'm a closet dancer.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

You're a closet freak. I got you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's closet freak.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Like a Pixar illustrator seven days a week.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Closet freak, two days a week now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But, you know, we could ramp it up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

All right, Gabe, what's the first thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Out of the mailbag?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Happy Friday, Jordan and Gabe. A few years ago, during a Christmas party that my sister and her husband attended, I was babysitting my niece. My nephew hadn't come along yet. My sister comes home way earlier than expected. She tells me that her husband got drunk and grabbed her by the back of her hair and dragged her around the hotel room. She locked herself in the bathroom and slept on the floor, her body blocking the door. I reported it, but to my knowledge nothing happened. This wasn't the first time my brother in law was abusive. I had no idea until recently. But he's been verbally abusing my sister for a very long time.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Ooo, that's so sad.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

After the incident in the hotel, there was also a night he got drunk and was verbally abusive to both my sister and me. I was shocked. I've lost all respect for him. I am polite but never friendly. I come around to see my sister and the kids. When my brother in law was younger, he fell and hit his face. It caused a traumatic brain injury that he took medication for. He suffered from a lot of seizures. I've read a lot about frontal lobe trauma and the increased likelihood of violence and impaired impulse control. That makes me nervous, dude. Jordan, that is one of my greatest fears in life. Getting a TBI or like a brain tumor or something and then having just a radical change in personality overnight. So scary.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know it's scary to think about a normal person becoming monster because part of their brain was damaged.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And of course we only hear extreme.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Examples like this one or that guy who went and shot a bunch of people and was like, there's something in my brain. And they did an autopsy and he had a tumor, that stuff.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I mean, we don't know what kind of person this guy was before. Maybe he was not a good dude before he hit his head, as probably was the case, I'm guessing. But still, this suggests that at least part of his violence can be attributed to this injury.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It certainly complicates the picture.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But then I wonder like, okay, if you're suddenly so different, you go to the doctor, you take your meds, you go to therapy, you learn to cope with your anger. There must be ways of working with a different brain that don't involve dragging.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your wife around by the hair.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Come on.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Sure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Also, lack of impulse control. I'd probably just overeat and play Call.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Of Duty six days a week. My impulse wouldn't be to berate my spouse and physically hurt my family.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I already, I already abused my wife and kids as much as I want, which is zero.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, the only place you drag your wife is salsa.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And she loves it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All right?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

And she loves it. Then late last year, my sister's husband announced that he was gonna buy a property in the northwest territories for $25,000 and wants to take my sister and my niece and nephew out there. This decision was not discussed with his wife. It's about 2,500 km away from us and 5,000 km away from any real civilization. I saw the land. There's a broken down shack and just nothing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh boy. So for people who don't know where.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The Northwest Territories is because they're not Canadian, it's in Canada, but it' way up there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know how you look at a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Map of Canada and you see all those cities at the bottom near the us?

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is above all of that. Some of this is as north as Greenland and more north than Alaska. People forget, especially Americans. Canada is absolutely enormous and most of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is totally empty or just has trees on it.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

So when he randomly decided to buy this land without warning or reason or seemingly any thought, my alarm bells went off. No one knows why he wants to do this and my stomach is turning thinking of him taking my family up there. I'm now afraid that he's going to take my sister and their kids to the middle of nowhere and murder them. I decided to message my sister and tell her how I felt about this whole situation. I live two hours away by car, so most of my conversations with her are by text. Unfortunately, either because he controls my sister's phone and reads these messages or because she told him herself, he now knows I think he's going to murder them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh great.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Initially she was angry, maybe a bit taken aback. She went on the defense saying, let's not make it something it's not. Through my sister. Her husband said he wants an apology. Apparently he keeps mentioning it in an offhand, somewhat passive aggressive way. I love that he wants an apology after abusing his wife.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is insane. Like maybe we're not even close to even, you prick. And you should just suck this one up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But seriously, his sister in law suggests.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That he might murder his wife and instead of going, huh?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why would she think I would do something like that?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He's all, I demand an apology.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know if this guy's a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Killer, but he's definitely a piece of crap.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Christmas dinner, to say the least, was awkward AF I arrived later at night after the kids went to bed. My sister, her husband and I exchanged pleasantries, but I felt the hum of anxiety between us. On Christmas Day, he took the kids to his dad's place and left my sister and me alone. I felt like she wanted to communicate. So did I, but nothing came of it. Sadly, neither of us have the skills to aptly talk this through. It's scary. My whole family backs my brother in law up which hurts me and I assume deep down hurts my sister too. My family is the type to sweep things under the rug and pretend things are all fine. As a rule, we don't talk face to face about anything serious. We would all rather watch someone slowly die than confront the fact that we could save them. We are slowly peel the band aid off people so they're avoiding conflict to keep everything from exploding.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sadly, very common. But man, this is how bad things happen.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Come on.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Complicating matters though is that without her husband, my sister is in a really perilous place. She wouldn't be able to run from him with her two kids and have the money to raise them alone. She also doesn't have a place to land if she tried I don't own a house. I live in a one bedroom apartment with my partner. My mother's house is out of the question for reasons. My father also lives in a one bedroom apartment and drinks like an angry fish.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Man, that's tough.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, all of this kind of helps.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Explain how she ended up with this guy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sadly, this is why a lot of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Domestic violence victims stay with abusive partners. Just because the logistics, the practicals are so hard.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I've asked my mother what she really thinks about the situation. Why he bought the land knowing what she knows about him and his past. She said I don't know. Property was cheap I guess.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh yeah, let's not do any thinking about this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Come on, Mom.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, the broken down murder shack in northern Manitoba must be a great investment property.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, she Zillow says the saw basement.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is going to appreciate the next 20 years. This is ridiculous.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

She goes on. It's totally infuriating. If I were a mother whose daughter were abused regularly, it would be my sole mission to bring him to justice.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, they wouldn't be able to find him. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I'm sorry to say there's something.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wrong with your mom. If she knows about this abuse and is totally fine, just fine with her daughter moving with her abuser 5,000 kilometers away from civilization with your grandkids.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Dude, that is one entire United States away from the nearest Wendy's. If my calculations are correct, it's far.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The nearest neighbors are going to live in igloos.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I'm dying to know what those reasons were that her sister can't move in with her mom. I mean her daughter might be in serious danger and she what are the reasons why can't you move in with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, reasons is that just means there's.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A whole other Feedback Friday letter in there that she didn't have time to take.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's gotta be something pretty serious. If their own mother can't take her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Endangered daughter and grandchildren into the house.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What reasons could those be?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I agree. But I do wonder if they need to revisit those assumptions. Because anything must be better than living with this guy and sister needs a place to stay badly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, the only thing I can.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Think of is it's like mom's got.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A drug problem or like she lives with a man who's a kid toucher.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, who knows, you know, still.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

And those are horrible possibilities. But are they worse than living with this guy who wants to isolate her and hurt her? I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, well, I mean, neither option is good, I'm afraid. The whole family system is failing this woman.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But to be fair, I know it's complicated.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She's also failing herself to some degree by not letting her sister in, by not seeing this situation clearly.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Right. Or not trying to take steps to improve her situation so that she had the power to leave. Of course. But I know it's really hard. So she wraps up. I feel very alone in my panic and anxiety. I feel like I've been ostracized from my own family. I'm angry and deeply sad. But I'm also not sure if I'm overreacting. All I know is that I love my family fiercely, and I had to say something. Am I overreacting? Was it wrong to warn my sister? Maybe I should have thought about it more. How can I keep my family safe when I can't physically prevent them from going up there? And how do I keep myself from exploding with anxiety? Signed, still in shock and trying to overcome these blocks before my sister becomes a Netflix doc.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dark, Dark. Sign off. Gabe.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Sorry.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When I hear about, like, oh, they.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dragged her around by the hair. I've been extremely mad at Jen before.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, the whole impulse control thing. It doesn't flash through my head to do something horrible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then just like, I decide not to do it because I have a moment of calm where, like, this thing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In my brain, it doesn't even go through my head at all.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I mean, you're not insane and you're not a monster.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, right.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

It's hard to wrap your head around the psychology of somebody who would do that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

The trauma or whatever that would cause them to react that way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's just.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm so not on that Same plane at all. And again, I've been like, so angry and I've said horrible things. Right. And you have to, like, undo it and. But I've never done anything even remotely close to that. Right. It's just.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ugh.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is a sad story, man, on so many levels.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The abuse your sister is experiencing, the.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Pain and stress this must be causing you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is a lot to deal with.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My heart really goes out to you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If this were my sibling, I am.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Pretty sure I'd also be freaking out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And doing everything possible to help wake.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Her up and get out of this relationship, man.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

But when a victim does not want help, it is so hard to know what to do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's why I feel for our friend here. There is a limit to how much she can intervene.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, what is she supposed to do?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Kidnap her sister and the kids? Barricade her in the mom's basement? If her sister's literally saying, I'm moving.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

With him, I don't want your help.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know what she's supposed to do.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We'll get into that in a moment. Are you overreacting? That is a hard question to answer. On one hand, maybe. I mean, them moving to the woods 2,500km away is scary, bizarre, risky. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean this guy's definitely gonna murder. Might be imagining the worst case scenario.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Which I, you know, can't blame me for doing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On the other hand, terrible things happen to people all the time. Your brother in law has a track record of violence.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He has a track record of poor impulse control.

[Jordan Harbinger]

These are the guys who are capable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Of doing stuff like this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if the worst ever did come.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To pass, I'm sorry to go there. We have to consider it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Anyone looking at this history would go, okay, well, all the signs were there. Years of physical and emotional abuse, Isolation?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Check. Dependency?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Check. Creepy cabin in the woods.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Of course this happened.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why didn't anybody do anything? Where's the family? So from that standpoint, no, you're not overreacting.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Also, even if your brother in law isn't capable of murder, it probably pays more to overreact than to underreact. If it means protecting your sister from more danger. And nobody else in the family is paying attention.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. He might not be moving them out.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There to kill them, but it's pretty obvious that moving to the middle of nowhere with an abusive spouse and two young kids and no connections and zero.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Resources is a terrible idea. Yeah, what are the. Also, what are the kids supposed to do up There, there's no school, no other kids within 100 miles, no Internet. I mean, are they moving to a tiny town that has that? It's going to be boring as hell.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Sounds like the cabin in Finland I stayed in. But so much worse. Yes, I guess they're going to have to use Starlink. They're going to go out of their minds. I think, like in two weeks they're going to realize that this was a very poor decision.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Anyway, the frustrating thing is you can't know if you're overreacting, but I think the better question is, what can I do to protect my sister as much as possible? So, no, of course it's not wrong to warn your sister. I think you kind of had to. I mean, knowing that her husband is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

On top of her all the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe texting, that wasn't the ideal move.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe, you know, you should have had the in person conversation or a phone call so it could stay private.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I understand with the distance, texting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is the easiest slash, the only way to really be in touch.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Also, if she did tell her husband what you said, then it doesn't matter how you went about it, she would have done it anyway.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, good point. If she might be telling him everything.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Her sister says, that makes this so.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Much harder, but that must also speak to how scared and indoctrinated this woman is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a massive obstacle. So like I said, you're in a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Really tough place here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And let's just acknowledge that must be awful.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Absolutely awful. I really, I'm just, as we talk about this more and more realizing how she said it's very isolating. And on top of the sadness and the anger and the fear, to be alone in those feelings makes it all so much worse. Yeah, no way around that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't think you're out of moves yet, though. I don't know exactly what you said.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To your sister in those texts.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know how much you've tried.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To talk to her about how she's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Feeling these days, how she's making this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Decision, whether she understands why you're so concerned.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But given how Christmas went down, given.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The way your family navigates conflict in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

General, I do get the sense that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The best version of this conversation hasn't happened yet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And the best version of this conversation is talking to your sister, ideally privately, ideally live in person, FaceTime, phone, whatever, and telling her how much you love her, how much you care about her, how much you want her to be happy and safe, inviting her to talk about what's going on with her husband, what their relationship is like these days, how she feels about him, what the abuse has been like for her, what the move to the sticks is all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

About, why that appeals to her and listening to her, validating her, make her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Feel genuinely understood and respected. We talk about this all the time. You're going to have to turn off.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That part of your brain that wants.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To convince her to not move and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To leave her husband. Anyone healthy and rational looking at this situation would know that that's the answer.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But you're talking to a person who's been victimized, a person whose trauma and life experience has led her into this dangerous marriage, has made it hard to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

See abuse as abuse to protect herself appropriately.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's very similar to talking to somebody in a cult. If you come right out and say, yo, you're in a cult, you're insane.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If you stay, you got to get help.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They're going to shut down. They're going to defend the cult. You need to build trust. You need to build rapport. You need to invest in the foundation that will allow your sister to go. Okay, I can admit that something is very wrong here. I can acknowledge this is a terrible idea.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I do need help.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah. All victims of abuse are kind of in a cult of one, aren't they?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And her abuser is the cult leader. And that cult has its own logic. It's its own power dynamics, its own gravitational pull or whatever. It's really hard to counteract that. So that's a crucial phase, and that might take several conversations. That phase might last for weeks.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know how much time you have before they plan to move. But I would be patient and invest in this foundation because I think that's.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Probably what's going to allow you to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Get through to her.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yes. And in a world where she does end up moving up there, that foundation will still be extremely important, because if you ever want to help her get out, you're going to need that foundation in that timeline as well. The challenge is because this family doesn't do conflict. Well, I think this conversation is going to be hard for both of them. It sounds like she'll be building that trust, that rapport from scratch in a way. Because if you haven't had much successful conflict over the years, then you don't really have that true intimacy. Right. Like the love for her sister is there. It's clear. It's obvious from her letter. But this emotional foundation you're talking about, Jordan, in this history of closeness and trust, the Ability to have a tough conversation, the language, actually, that allows two people to navigate these differences. All of that results from successful conflict over the years, and they don't have a lot of successful conflict.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, there's that clumsiness when you get into something difficult with somebody you haven't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Really had conflict with before.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

You're both having to have the disagreement and learning how to have the disagreement. So it's a lot to do at once.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. And I'm sure that's why our friend here feels so helpless, because there's not much of a way in with her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sister, even though she cares for her deeply.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

And then there's the time crunch, because she needs to get through to her before the move. So the stakes are so high.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But look, if you can build that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Foundation even a little bit, then at some point, you need to make your plea. You need to try to help your sister see the situation more objectively.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would do that by asking her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A lot of questions and really encouraging her to answer them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For example, instead of saying, you're in.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Danger, you're crazy, if you move up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There, maybe you say, help me understand how you're making this decision. What makes a marriage safe in your view? Like, specifically, how are you deciding that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Your husband is a good partner?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or instead of going, you need to move into a shelter with the kids tonight. You might say, what do you think the kids make of the way he treats you? What do you think they're learning? Is this the right move for them? How are you thinking about them in all this?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, those are all great questions. I do think the kids are a good tool here because her sister might be afraid. Afraid of her husband. She might not care much about her own safety, but any decent parent should care about their children totally.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So if you can help her see that she's endangering them by moving out there with an abusive father, that might.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Be the thing that finally makes her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Realize that she needs to rethink all this.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Also, maybe the goal shouldn't be to convince her not to move ever, or to leave him immediately. Maybe the goal is just to get her to slow down and put off this move for a little while so that she's making the best decision for herself. And that would give you more time to work on her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point. That's a way easier lift. Although it sounds like they're on his timeline. But she can still say, can we take a few more months to think about it? Or she can come up with some excuse for why she needs more time to move.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In order to buy them all more time, basically.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Right. I don't want to take the kids out of the school year in the middle or I need a couple months to shop for furniture or whatever it is. And then if your sister miraculously decides to let you in and separate from her husband. Big if. I know, but I'm crossing my fingers. Then you can get tactical about how to leave and how to leave safely, which is to some degree a bit of a science.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And we're going to link to a bunch of resources about that in the show.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Notes for you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Highly recommend checking them out.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Past Feedback Friday episodes About this interviews with experts we've done, DV hotlines, nonprofits. There's a whole world of information and.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Support for people in you and your sister's shoes. I would avail yourself of all of that.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

You know, Jordan, we talk about acceptance a lot. We talk about surrendering to the terrible things that happen in life. But. But in a case like this, if her sister is determined to move up there with the psycho, acceptance does not mean peace. You know, acceptance does not mean that everything is suddenly okay. It just means recognizing the fact that there's only so much she can do here and that her sister is really at the whim of what I imagine are traumas and life experiences and ideas about herself that are making her vulnerable to a very dangerous guy. And then it's up to our friend here to live with the perfectly appropriate fear, dread, sadness and grief associated with whole situation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's horrible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I really hope her sister listens to her.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Of course, I hope that too. But it's just occurring to me that this pain she's really struggling with is also the price that we pay for being in right relation with other people, including people we really love. Kind of gotta honor the fact that we are not them. And we can't make people do what we want, even when we know what's best for them, even when they're family. You know, everybody's ultimately responsible for themselves. And we know that intellectually, but emotionally, that's hard to live with.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, agreed. Much easier said than done.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

But I do believe that those painful feelings might also be an indication that we are on the right side of that boundary. You know, her last question was, how do I keep myself from exploding with anxiety? And I think what we're saying is the best thing you can do is first of all channel that anxiety into trying to get through to your sister. That might not diminish the intensity of the panic, but it will give it Shape, it will give it purpose. That is obviously the most productive use of that anxiety. But in a world where you can't get through to your sister and she moves up there, then you might explode with anxiety sometimes, and that sucks. But assuming you do everything in your power to save your sister, it might also be an important signal that you are also respecting her autonomy, her separateness, and still living your own life too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, you're right. My heart just breaks for this woman who has to watch her sister choose on some level to be isolated, to walk into more abuse and possibly worse.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's mind boggling.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It also occurs to me, Gabe, our friend here clearly runs a little anxious. Although who wouldn't be anxious, I guess.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If their sibling were being abused?

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I wonder if there's also some.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Connection between her anxiety and their family's conflict avoidance.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Interesting. What are you thinking? Like, what's the connection?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just wonder if the whole sweet things under the rug approach, they're general avoidance.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I wonder if that makes our friend here feel like she really doesn't have.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A way in with her sister, just like we said, which makes her feel helpless and ineffective. So maybe her mind is going. Well, if I can't do anything about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All this, maybe I'll just worry about it. Maybe ruminating on the worst possible scenario.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Will accomplish what my words and actions can't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Even though I think we all know that it doesn't work that way.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, you're onto something there for sure. And that might be another big benefit to good conflict resolution. You know, not just the trust and the intimacy you build, but hopefully reducing this kind of ineffectual anxiety. Which is almost like a false substitute for the real intervention.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Precisely.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I've never really looked at anxiety that way, but I know when I feel like I can't do anything about a.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Problem, I'll just obsess about it.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

As if obsessing moves the needle, when really it just makes me miserable. And it makes it harder to see the ways in which I can have some influence.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Very sorry about your sister, my friend.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And the whole family ethos that makes this situation so hard to resolve.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's concerning.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's heartbreaking. No way around it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I do think that there's hope still. And you have to do everything you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Can, really, to help your sister get out of this marriage safely while she can. To protect her and her kids, of.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Course, but also to know that you did everything you could so that if.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She does move, and I sincerely hope nothing worse happens, I really do if.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She does, stay with this creepy. You don't toss and turn for years.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wishing you had done more when you could have.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sending you and your sister a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know, it's a great way to decorate your broken down murder shack in the sticks. Getting your hands on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by CookUnity. At the risk of sounding a little bougie, we actually hired a personal chef.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

For a while to drop off cooked meals every week. It was a long time ago. It didn't really work out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hold on, folks. We had a ton of mouths to feed.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We were working nonstop.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We wanted to eat healthier. Awesome idea. Until we realized it was like three.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

And on top of that, it was stupid, expensive, insane.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

That's why cookunity is so great. It's the personal chef vibe, but with actual pro chefs. And you're not locked into a boring rotation. You get a rotating menu of 300 plus meals so you can keep it interesting week after week after, just to name a couple. We loved Miriam Milord's chicken and goat cheese salad. Fresh, bright, super satisfying. In Chase Evans miso cod, which tastes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Jordan this episode is also sponsored by Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank because it is built for real life, not the 1% and not for people who never have an oh crap moment. I know those too. I remember when I was grinding, watching everydollar and trying to build my credit the hard way. And my credit score is. It's one of those things I'm genuinely proud of because that did not happen by accident. It took time and consistency and that's why I like Chime. It's fee free. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees, no minimum balance games. And it actually gives you tools that.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

So if you're thinking I should have started sooner, yeah, you probably should have and I get it. But it's not too late to build your credit. Chime just makes it a lot easier.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Thank you for listening and supporting the show. All of our deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and [e-mail] deals please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

All right, next up Dear Jordan and Gabe, My wife and I are the parents of four kids, all adopted out of foster care. All have varying degrees of special needs in addition to various learning delays related to drug exposure. All of them have diagnosis of ADHD and two have reactive attachment Disorder and oppositional defiance disorder. One has severe allergies to the point that even smelling the allergen on someone else's breath can send them into anaphylactic shock. Poor kid has it rough.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My God, those poor kids. Y' all are doing God's work.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Seriously, My parents live in the same city and they've played a key role in our lives. They've supported us by babysitting often and have also been very financially generous when we've needed help.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Help.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

We used to see them a lot. The problem is, they blame most of our children's admittedly bad or socially inappropriate behavior and poor grades on our parenting. I'LL be the first to admit that we have flaws. We work hard, but sometimes the pressure of dealing with their issues and the exhaustion of weekly therapy and other medical appointments have led to us being impatient and snippy with our kids at times. My parents are often with us in the middle of stressful situations, which doesn't help. They don't see the many sweet, fun times we share as a family when they're not around.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's really tough so far. I gotta say, I appreciate how balanced.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You'Re being about all this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It does suck that your parents only see you guys in one context or when things get tough and then they're like, yeah, you guys are to blame for all this. That does seem unfair.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

They also have a long history of helping the kids do things behind our backs. Nothing major, serious, or dangerous. Just not appreciated. They also favor one kid over the others, which causes a lot of pain. For example, two of our kids had birthdays recently and they gave one $40 and the other $100.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Ooh.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That can send a tricky message to.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

A child who's already been through a lot and is probably conditioned to view stuff like that as an indication of whether they're lovable or how lovable they are. That's sad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, I definitely get why that doesn't sit well with our friend here.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

So he goes on then. Recently, my brother told me off for being a bad parent. He's only spent about four to six hours with us total over the last couple of years, which makes me suspect that my parents are sharing their opinions with members. I completely lost my cool and bit his head off. I didn't say anything I didn't mean. I am a people pleaser and hate confrontation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Interesting theme today, but it doesn't sound that way. Like, I destroyed him and I said I meant every word of it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, by the way, I hate confrontation. Well, okay, you're get your exposure therapy, apparently.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I think what he means is that was a big deal for him to do that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, no, I get it. I'm just kidding.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's just like, I hate confrontation. And I kicked that guy's ass so hard, and he deserves.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I've been working through this in therapy for a long time. I've come a long way in my professional life, but I still struggle with close family and friends.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, as do so many of us, man.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I think finding a new way of being with family is probably one of the hardest things in life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's so much history. The grooves are all so deep. So A long time ago, I went to one of those, like, lame O self help seminars, and they said one thing that stuck with me that I.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Thought was clever, that I guarantee you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

They stole from someone, but it was. Why is family so good at pushing your buttons?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Because they put the buttons there in the first place.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Nice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I've tried to talk to both of my parents about this. Individually. They listened, but basically said, if you were better parents, your kids wouldn't have these problems.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

What?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, the crack babies they adopted.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, that's an unfair.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Oh, man, this feels, again, very unfair.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, if they have some feedback for you guys, fair enough.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, my parents like to be like, you're giving them too much.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, whatever. No parent's perfect.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We can all do better.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if there are things you guys need to be doing better, I would.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hope you'd be able to take that criticism in. But based on what you've shared, it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just sounds both factually inaccurate and totally.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Unnuanced to say something like that.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

And quite hurtful considering the sacrifices I imagine they've made for these kids.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. I'm really sorry to hear this. I'm actually kind of angry on your behalf. That's really. Yeah. Not cool.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I love my mom and dad, and they were good parents to me. All of their kids are happy, healthy, and financially successful adults. I think this makes them feel like we didn't struggle. What's your problem? They're retired professors, so they're very educated. But they seem to think that the kids diagnoses are basically nonsense that could be overcome by love.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Mm. So they're ignorant about this stuff and maybe even kind of naive.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

But that doesn't entirely let them off the hook for being nice and curious about why this is hard.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, it doesn't.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But it sounds like it's hard for.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

His parents to grasp how hard life can be for people from different circumstances. They might not even really understand this whole adoption thing. It might just probably seems crazy to them.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

My working theory at this point in the letter is that watching their grandkids act out and watching their own kids struggle to parent them is probably pretty distressing to them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Which, to be fair, I can understand their household.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It sounds like a lot.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I mean, it sounds like a chaotic home sometimes. And it's also a massive responsibility that they have taken on here. But instead of going, okay, this is really hard to watch. How can we support our kids in this noble mission of theirs? Do we need to give them some understanding, some grace when the kids act out. In addition to giving them feedback, they might be going, well, if you just love them, everything will be fine. But that's almost certainly not the case.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They probably just want this problem to go away, so they hit him with this overly simplistic parenting advice. Air quotes, advice.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Since the conversation with my brother months ago, I've been avoiding spending time with my parents. In that time, our home has been more peaceful and the kid's behavior has improved.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So there's some connection between his parents, involvement in the kid's struggles.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Is their involvement contributing to the poor behavior, or do he and his wife just handle things better without the parents around?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hard to say. But this is a meaningful observation. And it's also possible that things just feel more manageable without one more source of stress.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Right. And it might make them more available to their kids, which helps, or something. So he goes on. My wife and I met with a counselor a few months ago ago. They told us that we need to sit down and directly discuss this with my parents and then bring in a third party if that conversation doesn't go well. But instead of listening to that advice, I kept on ignoring and avoiding them until my mom finally asked me what's going on a couple of days ago. I told her we need to sit down and talk it out. My wife, my parents and I, we're going to get together in a couple of weeks. How should I approach this? Should I ask if they've been talking about us behind our backs or just. Just leave it alone? Should I apologize to my brother even though I didn't say anything I didn't mean? How do I address and own my part of this problem while still standing my ground? Signed, a foster parent. Trying to lean in when the ice feels thin with this tricky kin.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Fascinating story.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like I said, you guys are saints. Y' all have taken on a very big responsibility here. These kids are massively lucky to have ended up with parents like you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And you have my admiration for them. That. I'm sorry that it's created such chaos and stress. Although I'm sure you and your wife.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You know, probably knew what you were getting into and were willing to take that on. And as far as you could sort of wrap your mind around it at the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I'm sorry that your parents haven't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Always known how to see things from your point of view or make things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Easier, even if they don't intend to make things harder.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I get why it's been so hard.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So there are a bunch of different threads here. Let's try to pick them apart. First things first. Just like in question one, I think the struggle to do conflict well is definitely making all of this harder for you and for your parents and this conversation you're gonna have with them. It's a chance to make progress on the parenting thing, but it's also a way to build these conflict muscles.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And I know how anxiety provoking that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is, but this is an excellent opportunity.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

For you to grow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ultimately, that's a gift. The only way we get better at this stuff is by doing it and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Doing it imperfectly and learning.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Second, I would get clear on what you and your wife's goals are for this conversation. If I were in your shoes, I think my goals would be one, to acknowledge to your parents that these conversations can be challenging, that your instinct when.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It comes to conflict is to ignore.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And avoid, which you know doesn't help, but that you want to work on.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That and you appreciate the chance to do that with them. I think that'll set a nice tone.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Two, to help your parents understand what.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All of this has been like for you guys.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Raising kids with these intense needs, factoring.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In your family's advice, making sense of their opinions, balancing parenthood with all your other responsibilities, all that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Three, to have an open conversation about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The kids and your parenting philosophy, where.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It'S succeeding, where it needs work. If you and your wife are open to that, of course you are not obligated whatsoever to listen to their advice in this department.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And maybe that's actually a separate conversation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But it might be helpful to invite it again if your parents can have a thoughtful conversation about it. And four, to come to a better understanding of your parents perspective, to help.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Your parents come to a better understanding.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of yours and hopefully find a more productive, more accurate, more loving way of talking about your kids, whether that means revising their opinions or sharing them differently.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or not sharing them at all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I laid those out as goals. But that can be a loose game plan for this conversation.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I think it's terrific, Jordan. Yeah, really nice. That's how I would do it too, by the way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I wouldn't bring the conflict with your brother into this conversation unless you it explicitly relates to how your parents come to these opinions. I think that's between you guys and your brother. And even if it's unpleasant, they're still allowed to talk about you guys, unfortunately. And there's a version of this conversation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That you should probably have with your brother too.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, I agree with that. And just to dig into this conversation with your parents A little bit more. A nice way to begin might be to say, mom, dad, you guys have played a really key role in our lives. You've supported us in all of these ways. Babysitting, money, gifts, just your presence. And we love you for that. And we are so appreciative. There are also parts of our relationship that are challenging, as you know, and we want to work on that. Namely your opinions about our parenting and the kids and the way that you share those opinions with us. And then you can talk about some of the specifics. For example, you might want to say, I know that you attribute most of the children's bad behavior and poor grades to our parenting. And we recognize that we could always do better. I'll be the first to admit, by the way, we have flaws. We can get impatient. We can get snippy when things get overwhelming. And they do get overwhelming a lot. Lot. But we also feel that a lot of your opinions, they do seem to gloss over the very real challenges that the kids have. Their childhoods, their biology, their chemistry, their trauma. So when you state an opinion like that, not only can it be very hurtful and kind of demoralizing to us as parents, it's also inaccurate and unfair and ultimately not something we can really do anything with in terms of becoming better parents. Because it feels more like you expressing your disapproval or insisting on your version of all of this rather than understanding and supporting us as parents, which is really what we would want from you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I really like that, Gabe, because he's not saying, you guys are trying to hurt us by saying that stuff, so keep your opinions to yourself. He's saying, here's where we struggle with certain opinions.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Here's how they land.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Whether you intend that or not, are you open to reconsidering? Are you open to having these conversations differently?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Exactly. And it creates an invitation for his parents to try things in a new way. Maybe they say, wow, we did not realize we were doing that. You were right, Right. Let us go off and reconsider some things. Or maybe they say, well, the kids might have their challenges, but, you know, your parenting is really, you know, just double down on whatever they've been saying. Or maybe they say, okay, we hear you, we're sorry. We'll try to do better. But we do have some opinions about the kids that we believe and that we feel are important. So can you hear us out? Any of those would be progress, though, even if you and your wife disagree? Because I think your parents would be responding to you with a lot more information about you and your family, how you hear things. It's only through these conversations that your parents can come to understand the full picture about your kids and about your parenting. The only way that they can really have an opportunity to appreciate how their comments are affecting you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They probably don't even know that they're having this effect on him.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Look, his parents might be a little oversteppy, right? They might be judgmental. They might be whatever you want to say about them. Naive, privileged, tone deaf, uncurious. All of that might be true to some degree. And our friend here might not be giving them every opportunity to understand the situation as well as they could.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Before he decides how to feel about all this, he should probably give them a real chance to see things in a new way.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

There's really no guarantee that his parents can change or that his parenting will become perfect, for that matter. But that doesn't have to be the goal. I think, to your point, Jordan, the real goal is, are we talking? Are we coming to understand one another better? Are we in a process together, A.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Process that will hopefully lead to better outcomes for both of them? Yes. Which ideally, again, really does depend on.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Certain amount of healthy conflict.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But listen, if your parents can't hang.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In this conflict with you, if they can't meet you with the same curiosity and openness, or they're just not interested in reflecting or reconsidering their approach, maybe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The answer is to pull back. That might mean setting some boundaries. You know, mom, dad, we still want.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You in our lives, but we're going to ask you to keep your opinions about our parenting to yourself because they're not helping and we got to do this our way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is an option. It might mean still listening to their opinions, but doing something different with them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe what you do with them is nothing. You just hear them out and let it go.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or maybe you try to look for.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, the one gem in their opinion, even if it's mostly wrong or unfair, and see if you can do something useful with it. And that's just, you know, how you cope.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

There might also be some work for you guys to do to not allow their opinions to shake you quite as much, because to be fair, that is a process that you're a part of. And I know it's really hard with parents, so I totally get that. But maybe the answer is for you and your wife to be more aware of the feelings and interpretations that you guys form about your parenting based on their opinion, because that is under your control.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And Actually, on that note, I think.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that, look, his parents might be clumsy in the way that they phrase things, or maybe they're overtly hurtful, we don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But is there a kernel of truth to what they're saying? Are they pointing out some difficult but perhaps important things about their parenting?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I'm really glad you're bringing this up. Yeah, it's a good point.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, I'm not letting them off the hook for being thoughtful, but it can be hard to take in otherwise helpful feedback when it's coming from a certain.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Source in a certain way.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

So true.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think I'm mostly on our friend here, so.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I also just want to invite him to consider whether part of the distress he feels is actually because they're hitting a tender spot.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, it is a very fair question, especially because there are a few things in his letter that speak to how he's interpreting his parents words. When he was talking about how his parents were good parents and all his siblings are happy and healthy and financially successful, he said, I think this makes them feel like we didn't struggle, so what's your problem?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's not what they said though. But that's what he heard, right?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

That's the implication that he's reading into it, which might or might not be fair. He also said they seem to think that the kids diagnosis are basically nonsense that could be overcome by love, but it sounds like they didn't actually say that and that might not accurately reflect their true beliefs. It might, but it also might not. So it might be nice when he sits down with his parents to say, look, sometimes when you guys give me parenting notes, I wonder if you feel like, well, we didn't struggle, so what's your problem? Is that in fact how you feel? Or to say the sense I'm getting from your feedback is that the kid's diagnoses are basically nonsense and they just need love to overcome it. Is that your read on things and just clear that up up? You know, maybe they say, yes, that is exactly what we believe. And then you can help them see that that's not really the full story. Or maybe they say, no, no, no, that's not what we meant at all. What we're trying to say, whatever they're trying to say. And then you won't be left to read between the lines or assume things that are not true and that are making this conflict harder. I think that would also be a good goal for this Chat again.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yet another reason that having these conversations is so important.

[Jordan Harbinger]

As for your brother, my advice there.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is, I totally understand your anger with him. It sucks to hear a family member tell you that you're a bad parent when they only say, spent five hours with you in the last two years.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Also that I'm confused by that subplot as well. How is that a helpful thing to say? Like, what does the brother get out of telling him that in that way?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Honestly, Gabe, I hope there's more to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That story that would explain why he.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Did that, because it just sounds cruel. Yeah, maybe there's some history there, some sort of larger dynamic, but my advice is try to narrate your emotions and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Explain them rather than leading with them. You can say, hey, Ben, I gotta.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Tell you, bro, I am freaking angry.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That you said I was a bad parent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm sorry I yelled at you on the phone, but I'm angry because I'm hurt. And I feel that you haven't spent.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nearly enough time with us to really weigh in on what kind of parents we are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I'm confused why you would even.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Want me to know your opinion on that. That's going to make the conversation with.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Him, hopefully a lot easier. But, Gabe, I just got to say, I know we usually end up identifying.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

With the person writing in, but it really does sound like his family is being quite judgmental. And it's not that they're not allowed to have opinions. It's not that our friend here is a perfect parent by his own admission.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But I just don't understand why this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Family thinks that saying these things is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Helpful, even if they have a point. The way they're going about it just.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Makes me wonder if his family has a massive communication problem or like a, you know, attitude problem.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, I mean, you know, he's the narrator, so we really only have his version of events to go on. But at a minimum, it's not unreasonable to hope that they would say, here are some things we're noticing. We know how hard it must be to raise children with these needs, but can we offer a couple suggestions? Is that okay with you? Even. That would be a different conversation for sure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And no, I would not ask your.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Parents if they've been talking about you guys behind your backs unless that directly relates to how you guys get along. Like I said, you need to be thoughtful about which issues you bring into a conflict. At the right time, they're allowed to talk about you behind your back with your brother. Unfortunately, that might not always be kind. That might not always lead to the best conclusions, but it's not something you can police. Right.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Although he could say, feeling that you and brother talk about us and arrive at these conclusions without all the information is kind of hurtful and frustrating for us. I do think that is fair game because he's not saying don't do it. He's saying here's how that does to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

True, because that's about his experience, not about their behavior. But I mean, that's just for me, it's lower priority.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, man, we went deep in this one.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I hope we've given you some ways.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To address and own your part of this problem while still standing your ground.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But I gotta tell you man, I.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Think you're already doing that beautifully. In fact, you definitely need to lean into conflict.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Conflict more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You need to give your family more context, set some new standards. But my read on you is that you're owning your piece of this and protecting yourself and making room for other points of view, which you know is what everyone should aspire to do.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But not everybody can do that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I commend you for that. And I know that's going to help.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You land in the right place here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sending you, your wife and all the kids a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us [e-mail], please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That makes our job a lot easier.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Easier if you're being harassed by a peer in your professional circle, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your business partner has kicked you out of the company you started for a crime you committed decades ago after rehabilitating in every conceivable way. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up [e-mail], we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Alright, what's next?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, Two years ago I reconnected with an old friend, let's call her Lily. Things were great. She would join the friend group on adventures and we'd all get along just fine. She's funny and we could make jokes about our lives. One day, for example, we were walking downtown together during a rainstorm trying to meet up with some friends. Every car that drove by splashed us. We got completely soaked and I can't remember the last time I laughed that hard. It's one of my favorite memories of Lily. Then a year ago, the insecurities Started to come out. Out of nowhere, I got a text from Lily asking if I'm better friends with her or our other friend. Mar.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay. Is Lily 8 years old?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is this letter from a third grader? Gabriel?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Nope. Full adult.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm already on our friend here's side. Don't even need to hear the rest. That's a crazy thing to text another adult. Go to therapy, Lily. Work it out on the couch.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Not realizing what the next year would bring, I responded politely that I don't really rank my friends like that, but I have unique friendships with both of them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Solid reply. Seemingly unnecessary, but solid reply.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Then Lily confronted Mary and was upset that Mary was stealing so many friendships away from Lily. Mary is one of my best friends. She isn't dramatic. And the accusation that she's stealing friends isn't anywhere close to reality. When Lily asked me about it again, she mentioned that she feels like she can't spend time with me because Mary is always around, which is also not the case. I acknowledge that she felt that way and that those feelings are valid. But when I asked her why she felt that way, she was unable to provide an explanation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nice response. That's much nicer than I would have come up with. That's almost too validating.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But, yeah, it's so telling that you were like, like, okay, I hear you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That you feel that way. Can you tell me why?

[Jordan Harbinger]

And she's like, nah, it's just that way. End of discussion.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Over the course of the next eight to nine months, we had this conversation repeatedly to the point of exhaustion. Even as this was happening, both Mary and I continued to invite Lily to various social gatherings. Lily still claimed she felt left out and that she couldn't be my friend. No reason given. Meanwhile, Lily and Mary had their conversations. And Mary finally got fed up with the accusations. And. And they're no longer friends.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Understandable.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Separately, Lily wanted a person named Oliver to tone down his boisterous personality. Oliver said, absolutely not, and they're no longer close.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, ridiculous. I'm on team Oliver here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Team Boisterous bro.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Lily also asked three other guys if they're closer to Mary than to her. And all of these guys are like, wtf is she even talking about?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

God, this poor woman.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is deep insecurity, pure and simple. And now I'm almost back to feeling bad for her again. Because if you're doing this, there's wrong. There's some real trauma. You got a personality disorder. Something's going on.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Well, she said she wasn't like that before, and Then did something happen during a time when they weren't in touch? Maybe. I don't know. She goes on. Lily asked Mary not to talk to certain guys because she was interested in dating them. She tried to tell a guy named Ross that he was participating in a certain group chat incorrectly. And at least three other people have been confronted by Lily because she wants them to change their behavior officially back.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To hating this woman.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Who does that?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Lydia of the highest order.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is a toxic person. I know that word gets thrown around a lot, but this is for real. I have some empathy for a person like this, but this is so dumb and so weird and so not your problem. How do you participate in a group chat? Wrong. That's what I want to know.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

She goes on. I think Lily is deeply, deeply insecure about so many things and wants to control her external world in order to make her internal world feel better.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Better.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

She wants people to change who they are in order to feel better about herself.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Bingo. Control, projection, lack of self awareness, poor social skills. This is a dangerous cocktail.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Someone needs to tell her to stop.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Fixating on other people and start focusing on herself.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I started out a year ago very empathetic toward Lily. I know what it's like to be excluded. But I've recently become extremely blunt with her. Providing evidence that she's been invited to many things while she's invited me to none. And telling her that my friendship with Mary is not preventing me from being friends with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Her.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I also stopped inviting Lily to social events because I don't want the drama. She has problems with multiple people at these events. But Lily doubled down and blamed Mary for the fact that I can't be friends with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bruh. Move on dot org. Get out of here.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

It's gotten to the point where she's losing friends and she's not being invited to things because she's so confrontational. It's the clearest self fulfilling prophecy I have ever seen unfold before my eyes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Happens all the time. So much easier to see in other people. Of course.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Our fears, our insecurities, our stories. We say we don't want them, but.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They often end up creating our outcomes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not in a woo woo way, just.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A very practical way like this. It is very sad.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I finally gotten frustrated enough that I told her I need to step back from this friendship. In her final reply to me, she said she's working on a way for she and Mary and I to be able to hang out. I didn't reply, but I wanted to say, what are you Talking about we were all hanging out, we were all friends. And your insecurities have blown everything. Giving up. But I didn't think that was healthy, so I didn't say it. I knew Lily 20 years ago, and I don't think she was ever like this. At least 3 of the people she's confronted in the last year. Have gently suggested therapy. When I did it, she said she can't imagine a therapist would tell her to do anything differently. She's already doing everything right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Clearly. Wow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, man.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's the final straw. She's literally putting her fingers in her ears. Like, I'm perfect. This is a person who can't be helped.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You tried.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Next, imagine thinking. Thinking you are the one. Look, I have no friends, but it's not because of me. It's because other people can't do the group chat, right?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Dude, I think your theory about a personality disorder is probably true.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Gotta be.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I've lost all patience. And I'm not even sure I want to salvage the friendship at this point.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What is there to salvage? Who has the time? It's not your sister.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Nothing left to say.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sheesh.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

But we go to the same social event every week, so I have to see her. Although I don't necessarily have to interact with. With her. What do I do? Here. Signed, Feeling famished for some advice on how to brandish this new shield against a friend who's been tragically banished.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dude, can you imagine being around somebody like this regularly?

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

You know, it's actually scary because Lily does not exist in the same reality as everybody else. And that can be a very unsettling feeling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Again, the line that really freaked me out was. I can't imagine a therapist would tell me to do anything differently. I'm doing everything right. Like, whole, holy shit, dude. What?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, well, I'm sorry your friendship with.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Lily played out this way. But the reality is this is not somebody you could have a real relationship with.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But, look, I'm also sorry for Lily. Whatever wiring and life experiences made her become this way is. It's sad. Her insecurity, her projection, they're isolating her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Which is exactly what she says she doesn't want.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My hope is that one day she.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wakes up and goes, huh?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I got no friends. I got no partners. I got no prospects. I wonder why that is. Hi, it's me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm the problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's me. Whatever. Right. What does that sound? Go. Or someone comes along and gives her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This feedback in a different way. Maybe at a more vulnerable moment. And she's like, oh, okay, I need to hear this.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I suppose it is possible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, I'm not holding my breath.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And at this point, look, this is not your concern slash problem.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So, honestly, I don't think there's anything for you to do right now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You've done it all. You've been kind to Lily.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You've been patient with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You've been compassionate. You tried to understand her. You included her far longer than you had to. You tried to help her see things more clearly. You encourage her to see a therapist. And in a variety of ways, she's.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, no, I want more. Or like, no, thanks, I'm good.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So Lily's on her own now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She has to find her own answers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The only thing you need to do.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is hold this boundary.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know it's awkward. You're in the same mixer every week. You're gonna have to see her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It sucks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But you can be a decent person. You can smile when she comes around. You don't have to go out of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Your way to be mean. But, yeah, I would not engage with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would keep my distance. I would just focus on yourself and other people.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's really that simple.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Gabe, I don't know how old our friend here is. 20s, 30s?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Older? Hard to say.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm getting early to mid 20s vibes just based on the fact that, I.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Don'T know, once you turn 28, 29.

[Jordan Harbinger]

30, your patience for the lilies of this world plummets, goes way down.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Man, that's right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Life is too short to put up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

With this kind of insanity.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, I think she's learning that pretty quickly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Definitely. But look, you can still end a friendship with somebody and wish them well from afar. And I do hope Lily works on all this stuff.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She gets better.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if she ever comes to you in a different spirit, you know, wanting to apologize and make things right, you could consider that. Cautiously, of course. But until then, bye, Felicia. Focus on your healthy friends, and good luck, guys. I gotta take a quick break to tone down my boisterous personality. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy. And Bombas is leading that charge in my house. We love Bombas so much.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's all we wear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We even gift it to our family and our friends and our neighbors. Nanny. We're big fans of the grip socks.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So we don't slip around on our floors.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bombas just launched their new sports socks, which are amazing for whatever you're into running, golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year and these things are cushioned, sweat wicking and packed with techy features that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Make it feel like your feet are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Finally on your side around the house at night. I'm living in their Sunday slippers which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights. And Bombas also has underwear and tees. Buttery, soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ruin every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased one donated over 150 million so far.

[Sponsor Voice]

Head over to bombas.comjordan and use code jordan for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O-M-B-A-S.comjordan code jordan at checkout.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. Have you ever thought about how much your imagination can expand just by listening to a story? That's where Audible comes into play. It's your gateway to exploring not just any stories, but those that fuel your passions, spark motivation, or provide that expert advice you've been seeking. Audible offers a vast universe of content that challenges you to think bigger and explore new perspectives. Audible isn't just entertaining, it's a powerful tool for personal growth. It can lift your spirits, alter your habits, enhance your well being. All through the immersive experience of audio, Audible is unrivaled when it comes to variety. They offer an unparalleled selection of audiobooks, podcasts, including this one, and unique Audible originals, all available through a user friendly Whether you're catching up on bestsellers, discovering new releases, or exploring an array of included titles, there's always something new to check out. Plus, Audible seamlessly integrates into your daily routine. Listen while you're jogging, during your commute, or even as you're doing household tasks. It is the perfect way to enrich.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Your day to day activities.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So dive into Audible to enhance your mental landscape while you go about your day. Sign up for a free 30 day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.comjhs if you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The amazing sponsors who make this show possible.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Everything is searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals. If that doesn't work, you can email me jordanordanharbinger.com, we're happy to dig up codes for you. Yeah, it's that important that you support those who support the show.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All right, back to Feedback Friday.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And now for the Recommendation of the Week.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I am addicted to lip filler.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Someday we're gonna have to replace that soundbite.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But today's not that day.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Never, never die.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My recommendation of the Week is a minimalist wallet. Most wallets, including my previous, they're just chunky. They're annoying.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I had a huge wallet when I was younger.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And actually, it's bad for you. Do you know, Gabriel, do you know it's bad for you to keep a wallet in your back pocket because when.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You sit on it, your hip bones are all uneven and stuff.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Oh, never thought about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But yeah, it can cause problems. I assume a small wallet, no big.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Deal, because you got a little bit of junk in the trunk, like a Pixar mom.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But if you don't have that, then your hip bones aren't alone. Anyway, that's not the real reason. I just didn't want my whole pocket.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Taken up by a personal filing system with George Pe. Stanza has.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's just weird. So then I got a money clip, and that was better. But then you got this metal thing in your pocket, and it's still kind of unwieldy, so it would set off.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Metal detectors and all that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I bought myself a slimfold Nano soft shell.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'll link it in the show notes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's super minimalist. The wallet itself is slightly thicker than.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A couple of credit cards. I think when there's nothing in it, it's like the thickness of a credit card.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's thinner than my phone with cards in it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But inside I've got four cards, cash.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Including an air card that tracks it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And, you know, other credit cards and insurance cards, all that stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a great purchase, highly recommended.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's not that expensive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We'll link to it in the show notes. And basically, you get your pocket back.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Which is kind of nice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, if you keep it in the front pocket like I do now, you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Can actually keep something else in there.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

You know, I have another little solution for you, Jordan. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's called a man purse.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A man purse.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Oh, God, no. And then you don't have to worry about pockets at all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, you just have to worry about people misgendering you in public.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

People's judging. Pick your poison. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, episodes you like, episodes you hate, come check it out. It's in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. In fact, everyone's in there but me. No, I lurk in there all the time.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I just can't post a reply.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But Gabriel's in there to speak on our behalf. All right, next step.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Hi Jordan, I just read your Wee bit wiser on when not to talk about your goals with other people, when your silence is actually more effective than speaking.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, that one was interesting and a lot of people replied to it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Might as well take this opportunity to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Say, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out the newsletter. It's called We Bit Wiser. You've heard me talk about it a bunch.

[Jordan Harbinger]

2 Minute Read from a past episode or sometimes just from our heads, from.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Us to you comes out on most Wednesdays. A lot of responses to that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It really is a great companion to the show. And jordanharbinger.com news news is where you can find it.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

So he goes on. Silence is a form of responsibility, I suppose. A heavy demand. I wholeheartedly believe that sharing your dream often kills it. But at some point as you're networking, you need to share how and when do you share what you're up to as you're taking action and making headway? Where's that line between keeping things private and opening up? At what moment do you share certain things with people while building relationships? Sign wondering when to be heard when sometimes mum's the word.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good question. So for anyone who didn't catch this news, Leonard, what we're basically saying is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That opening up about your life with people, that's obviously crucial.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But there's also something to be said for not opening up too soon or too much. Because when you keep something to yourself, that allows certain ideas or goals to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Take shape, it allows them to just.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Be yours for a little while. It also doesn't give you that false.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sense of accomplishment that talking about your goals can do instead of actually, you know, working on on them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Staying quiet also forces you to really think before you speak, to make sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That you're actually saying something meaningful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And as this listener mentioned, we don't always have to say something to be understood. Sometimes staying quiet and the quality of that silence, how you listen, how you process something, how you look at someone, sometimes that says more than words ever could and that can be much more powerful. So I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about This, I think it's more about taking a moment to consider why you're sharing something with someone, somebody.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

What you stand to gain from doing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That, what you risk giving up if you do that, how the other person.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Will receive the information.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, let's say you're having coffee with somebody, a peer, someone in your industry, and you want to tell them about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

An idea for a project you're starting, maybe something you want to grow into a side business one day, whatever it is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you take a moment and you ask yourself, why do I want to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Talk about this right now?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe the answer is, I'm excited about this thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I need help getting it off the ground.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I want this person to know where.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm headed, what lights me up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Those are good reasons to share a little bit about it. But you might also realize, well, I don't know exactly what this project is. It's still coming together. I should probably be home right now working on it. And actually, I think I just want.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This person to take me seriously.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Those might be good reasons to go, okay, hold off on talking about this now. Oftentimes it's a mixed bag. There are upsides and downsides to sharing, so sometimes you just have to do.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A calculation about whether it's worth it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But keeping an eye on your motivations, why you're saying what you're saying to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This particular, particular person at this particular moment, I think that's the most important thing.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

I also think it's helpful to think about what the person's response might be and how that might affect you. Like, for example, if you tell that person about that side project that you're excited about and they don't get it, or they don't think it's a good idea, or they get it, but they're not super gracious or supportive, is that going to infect your feelings about the project? Maybe at a time when you don't need other people's voices in your head, that would also be a good reason to hold off.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That happens all the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You find something you're passionate about, and one person is like, yeah, I mean.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I guess if that's what you think.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or they're actually critical of it, and suddenly you're like, maybe this is dumb. Maybe I don't have what it takes. And I remember early in the days.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Of this podcast, I would tell people about my idea, and they were like, what's a podcast? Nobody listens to that. It seems like a waste of time. It's not as interesting as you think. It is. This is really boring. And I just stopped talking about it because I didn't really care to hear any of that.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Was it hard for you to hear that? Like, did it make it harder for you to be excited about your podcast?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not as much because I thought that they were all wrong.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Wrong.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because I was like, it's a hobby.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

You just knew that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it was kind of like, it's a hobby.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't really care if you don't like it. Like, somebody might like it. Why are you crapping on my hobby? I'm not even asking you for your opinion, you know. Yeah, yeah.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Well, that can be very helpful. Like, you were able to hold your excitement even when they were kind of undercutting it. But for some people, that can be really hard, you know, like, if you get a piece of feedback, especially if it's from somebody you're close with. Like, interesting theme today when we were talking about how our friend was interpreting his parents feedback about his parenting. Like, when it comes from a source like that, it can be hard to not let it in so much, you know?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I did get some good feedback from people that were really. They were like, you're talking really fast now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I talk quickly but not crazy rapid with no breaths.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But yeah, I think if you're looking for people to just reinforce how awesome.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Your idea is to stay motivated, this is like, not really a great way to do that.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Yeah, I mean, that's a good. Different piece. It's a different type of feedback because they're just saying, hey, I'm noticing this thing as opposed to whether it's even worth percentage. But this is a little bit tricky because there's obviously, to your point, great value in getting feedback from people on your ideas along the way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's the dance, I guess.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

So again, what you said about checking in with your motivations is key. Are you keeping things close to the vest because you don't want to hear some difficult but necessary feedback, or are you keeping things close to the vest to protect your excitement, to give yourself the necessary freedom to play, to develop? If it's the latter, then I think that's a very good reason to stay quiet, especially in the early days of a project.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's the other thing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If you're keeping things low key for.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, like three, six, nine months, okay, that can be useful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If you're refusing to breathe a word.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

About an idea you've barely worked on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For two years, that's probably a sign.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You'Re overthinking this and maybe protecting something else.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

You know, I think we usually know deep down when we're sharing for the right reasons. If you check in with yourself, you know when you're opening up about something because you want feedback or you want help or you need insight, or you want to become closer with somebody by sharing something important with them, or when you're opening up to impress them or sound smart or avoid doing the work better back at home. If it's a mix of those things which does happen or you truly don't know, then I would say err on the side of saying less, because you can always share more later, but you can't take something back.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Agreed. Also, if you don't know how someone's.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Going to respond to a piece of information or how interested or supportive they.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Are, you can just share a little.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And go from there. You can be like, yeah, so I.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Have my job and on weekends I'm.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Playing with this interesting idea I found. If they're like, oh, okay, cool, maybe you don't elaborate or if they seem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Eager to poke holes in it, maybe you keep quiet. But if they're like, oh, that's awesome.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have a couple ideas myself.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You want to talk about it? That's a sign you're probably in good company.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's safe to share.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's no real textbook rule here.

[Scrunch Pants (Producer)]

Great point.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's more about being thoughtful and self.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Aware and considering your audience. It's really an art as opposed to a science.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Love your thoughtfulness. Love your mindset.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know that'll make these conversations a lot more valuable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And good luck. Go back and check out Isabel Boymka and Colton Scrivener and our skeppy Sonny.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

On Incels if you haven't done so yet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. That circle of people I know, like and trust. We're teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free. It's our six Minute Networking course. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy. And you can find it on the thinkific [e-mail] the drills really take a few minutes a day.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dig the well before you get thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need them all@6minute networking.com. advertisers discounts ways to support the show on the [e-mail] deals I'm @jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn Gabe's on Insta Gabriel Mazra Rahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Use the advice we gave here today.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you you learned.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And we'll see you next time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Think you need top secret clearance to catch war criminals? In this preview, Elliot Higgins shows how everyday citizens with nothing but wi fi and curiosity are uncovering global crimes that governments tried to bury.

[Elliot Higgins]

Bellingcat does something called Open Source Investigations thanks to smartphone technology, social media, and the wealth of information we have online. Stuff like Google Maps giving you satellite imagery, ship tracking websites, plane tracking websites, all kinds of information that's accessible to you now. I started doing this in 2012 as a hobby. I just tried to figure out how can you prove if a video is filmed somewhere and I realized that you could compare landmarks visible in the video with satellite imagery and do a kind of spot, the difference fit. Now that's a technique known as geolocation, but back then it was just me playing adult spot the difference on social media platforms. I think when we live in an era where the truth is constantly contested, especially on the Internet, it's good to have something where you can not only point to the evidence, but the actual process you use to come to your conclusions and open it up for debate. Because there is a tendency for people just to read stuff that reinforces what they already believe and that causes a lot of problems. If we're going to have a debate about something, it should be on actual facts, not just the event opinions of a newspaper colonist you've just read, what we do is important. It's not just about allowing people to see our working, but giving them the ways to actually do it themselves. And if we let the world just be run by people who want you to shut up, then it's going to be a very dark place indeed. For me, it's really about taking open source investigation and getting as many people as possible to use it. Yeah, I'll just say give it a go if you're interested because that's what I did, and I turned out quite well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To hear how Bellingcat is using open source sleuthing to expose war crimes and rewrite the rules of intelligence, check out episode 1192 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.