Transcript

A (0:03)

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional drug trafficker, four star general or Hollywood filmmaker. And if you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about it, I suggest our Episode Starter Packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today. If you've ever looked at the Internet and thought, wow, this used to be less awful, congratulations. You have noticed in shittification. Today we're discussing why every platform you love eventually turns into a flaming dumpster full of pop ups, scams, knockoff backpacks from brands that are named like a cat just walked across the keyboard in a subscription fee just to use the thing you already bought or that you thought you bought but now I guess it turns out you're renting it. I don't know. Facebook promised they'd never spy on you and now spying is their business model. Amazon didn't just win E commerce, they locked us in, shook down merchants, cloned their products and raised prices everywhere. So we all pay the Amazon tax whether we shop there or not. Twitter speed ran itself from town square to scams, porn and Nazis in record time. Google, they didn't win by being the best search engine. They won by making it a freakin nightmare to even try to use anything else. My guest today is Cory Doctorow, who coined the term inshittification. We're breaking down how this happens, why switching costs keep us trapped, and how tech companies gaslight us into thinking that this is all Norma and what, if anything, we can actually do about it. Because when your car, your phone, your books, your software and your social life all come with terms and conditions written by Satan's interns, something has gone very wrong. Now here's Cory Doctorow. Why is the Internet going downhill?

B (2:13)

So I think you know the Galaxy Brain meme where you've Got the three different explanations. The one for the little brains, the one for the medium brains, the big ones. So the little brain answer to this is like, it's yours and my fault. We are as consumers, the all powerful arbiters of everything that happens in society. Our consumption choices determine everything. We did not shop with sufficient care. We used services that were free and didn't think about what pitfalls might be in the future. I think this is nonsense. Okay. I think the idea that you're going to shop your way out of a monopoly is like the idea that you're going to recycle your way out of the climate emergency. Like I don't care how well people in the Palisades sorted their recycling. Like that's not going to stop the fires. Right?

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show – Episode 1280: Cory Doctorow | Why Everything Got Worse and What to Do About It

Release Date: February 3, 2026
Guest: Cory Doctorow

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jordan Harbinger sits down with renowned author, activist, and technology critic Cory Doctorow to unpack the concept of "enshittification"—how digital platforms, once beloved and useful, become progressively worse for users. Together, they dig into why the internet and tech platforms have become so exploitative and frustrating, why policy and monopoly power are at the core of these problems, and what, if anything, we can do about it.

Doctorow explores the interplay between regulatory capture, predatory business models, monopoly power, and the real-world consequences these have on consumers and society. The conversation is both humorous and urgent, packed with memorable metaphors, sharp critiques, and a deep dive into the forces making everything from internet search to shopping, apps, and even car features, worse over time.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is Enshittification? (00:03–02:13)

Jordan introduces "enshittification": the process by which platforms degrade, becoming full of scams, pop-ups, and hidden fees as they prioritize profits over users.
Doctorow, who coined the term, is here to explain how and why this happens, and to discuss the systems and policies that allow it.

2. Who’s To Blame: Consumers, Tech Oligarchs, or Policymakers? (02:13–05:39)

Small Brain Take: It's the consumers’ fault for poor choices. Doctorow calls this nonsense: "Shop your way out of a monopoly is like recycle your way out of the climate emergency." (02:28, Cory Doctorow)
Medium Brain Take: Evil tech billionaires (the "Zucker Musky" types) are to blame for their greed and malfeasance, but Doctorow argues they’re simply exploiting the system left open by policymakers.
Big Brain Take: It’s failed policy—regulators and economists who insisted "monopolies are efficient" and dismantled earlier safeguards. Doctorow: "We used to not have a rat problem because we were using rat poison. And then these guys were like, stop using rat poison. And we stopped." (04:07, Cory Doctorow)

3. How Monopoly Powers Lock Us In (05:39–12:54)

Acquisition is at the heart of Monopoly: Facebook buys competitors (Instagram, WhatsApp) to recapture departing users and cement market power.
Jordan: "I always wondered why Apple didn't get into the search game... If anybody has the resources, it's them..." (10:33)
Doctorow highlights blatant admissions in internal communications: Zuckerberg wrote "it is better to buy than to compete." (08:34)
Google’s empire is built almost entirely on acquiring other companies, not internal innovation.

4. Making Products Worse on Purpose (12:54–18:14)

Google purposely degraded search quality to increase ad impressions when growth stalled. Internal memos revealed executives debated between quality and revenue, with revenue winning out.
Doctorow: "If we make search worse... so you have to type more, it's pretty easy to do... and now we're searching two and three times, which means they're getting two or three chances to show us ads." (14:01)
Discussion of Apple’s $20B/year deal with Google to ensure default search status, stifling even the possibility of competition.

5. The Power and Problem of Switching Costs (18:14–24:27)

Companies strategically raise "switching costs"— barriers to leaving a platform (e.g., linked family phone plans, vendor lock-in).
Regulatory changes (like number portability for cell phones) can lessen switching costs—evidence that public policy can empower consumers.
Doctorow: "Switching costs arise out of policy. Sometimes, we have policies that deliberately lower switching costs... sometimes we have policies that raise them." (19:40)

6. How Law Makes Fixing Things Illegal (24:27–32:03)

IP law expansions (like the DMCA & international equivalents) make bypassing "digital locks" on devices a felony, even for legitimate uses.
Doctorow: "We made it illegal to fix someone else's broken technology. And then we wonder why all our technology is broken." (24:40)
Example: Authors can’t even give readers tools to use audiobooks they’ve bought, due to DRM laws.

7. Surveillance, Data Leaks, and Privacy Erosion (25:03–31:22)

Tech companies have enormous insider threats: employees at Facebook, Google, and even the NSA have exploited their access to stalk people.
Any data you collect will leak, and Meta, Apple, Google, etc., are all vulnerable because of their troves of personal information.
Doctorow: "Any data you collect will probably leak, and any data you retain will definitely leak." (27:03)

8. Collective Action Problems and Lock-In by Network Effects (28:20–31:22)

Platforms hold social relationships hostage; you can’t leave Facebook or WhatsApp without leaving groups, info, or support networks behind.
Doctorow calls this a "collective action problem": "Mark Zuckerberg understands that so long as you love your friends more than you hate him, you'll probably stick around, even if he makes the service worse." (28:54)

9. Hostile Interoperability Is Now Illegal (31:22–32:09)

Early Facebook let users pull MySpace messages into Facebook via bots; teens created OG App to get ad-free Instagram feeds. Such "adversarial interoperability" is now rendered illegal by anti-circumvention laws.
"If there's a countermeasure that you have to defeat... that's a felony with a five year prison sentence and a $500,000 fine." (31:30, Doctorow)

10. DRM, Ownership, and Losing Control of Your Stuff (35:23–38:03, 81:06–84:37)

Users and even authors can't legally escape DRM—giving or using tools to unlock bought content is a harsher crime than actual theft.
Real-world outcomes: Kindle can remotely delete books; car companies can disable features unless you keep paying subscriptions, and you can’t transfer features you’ve paid for (heated seats, high-beam assist) when you sell your car.
"It's really kind of the end of private property." (83:48, Doctorow)

11. Algorithmic Wage Discrimination and Economic Extraction (84:37–89:14)

App-based gig economy (Uber, nursing agencies, etc.) uses algorithms to pay workers less if they appear desperate or have more debt.
Doctorow: "Uber can impute a level of desperation... The more shitty rides you take, the lower the wage you're offered." (85:58)

12. Amazon: Predatory Practices and the Hidden 'Amazon Tax' (54:46–63:32)

Amazon uses predatory pricing & Prime to lock in high-income shoppers, then hits sellers with rising fees and forces sellers into its ecosystem.
"Prime was a big example... They pre-sold US shipping at a loss a year at a time." (56:04)
Most Favored Nation clauses mean if you sell through Amazon, you can’t list cheaper elsewhere.
Sellers pay 50–60% in junk fees; the cost gets passed on everywhere: "We're all paying the Amazon tax. Even if you go, 'I don't use Amazon,' you're still paying." (60:10)
Amazon’s "advertising" is really payola for top search placement, making search results purposely worse. "The top result is always either more expensive or worse or both." (61:00)

13. Poor Product Ranking, SEO Games, and AI Summaries (69:55–74:09)

Shady product listings and "pay-to-play" dominate Amazon rankings; Google’s AI summaries now worsen the problem, summarizing (and amplifying) low-quality, high-commission recommendations.
Honest reviewers lose; grifters and grifteralgorithms win.

14. Policy, Regulation, and the Hope for Change (73:20–76:39)

Doctorow gives an example of how the CFPB tried to fix comparison shopping for financial products, requiring real disclosure and easy switching—killed by subsequent administrations, evidence that real change is possible if policies change.

15. Why Are Tech Firms Betting Big on AI, VR, and Growth? (47:03–54:46)

Tech giants pivot to VR/metaverse, AI, etc. not necessarily out of faith in the product but to keep their "growth company" status and support their inflated valuations.
Doctorow: "If you don't hit your growth target, they're like, okay, you've got a good business, but it's a mature business... Everybody panic. Sell now." (49:16, Jordan; 50:03, Doctorow)
Tech leaders may be true believers in their pitches, but mostly they’re keeping ahead of the market’s demand for endless growth.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"Shop your way out of a monopoly is like recycle your way out of the climate emergency." – Cory Doctorow (02:28)
"They do evil for the same reason your dog licks its balls—because they can." – Cory Doctorow (04:00)
"It's pretty abnormal that we have property that we want to use in lawful ways and the manufacturer disprefers it—and that takes precedence." – Cory Doctorow (31:55)
"Any data you collect will probably leak, and any data you retain will definitely leak." – Cory Doctorow (27:03)
"Switching costs arise out of policy... sometimes we have policies that deliberately lower switching costs... sometimes we raise them." – Cory Doctorow (19:40)
"Amazon charges for search result placement. In order to recoup the money from that auction, they have to charge more. So the top result is always either more expensive or worse, or both." – Cory Doctorow (61:00)
"It's really kind of the end of private property." – Cory Doctorow (83:48)
"If you make the website 40% shittier, 80% of our users are going to go to the search engine and type, 'how do I block ads?'" – Cory Doctorow (77:56)
"The more shitty rides you take, the lower the wage you're offered. That's algorithmic wage discrimination." – Cory Doctorow (85:58)
"When your car, your phone, your books, your software and your social life all come with terms and conditions written by Satan's interns, something has gone very wrong." – Jordan Harbinger (Intro, 01:27)
"We're all paying the Amazon tax, even if you go, 'I don't use Amazon.'... you're still paying." – (60:10, Jordan)

Timestamps of Important Segments

00:03 – Introduction to the episode and concept of "enshittification"
02:13 – Laying blame: People, tech moguls, or regulators?
05:49 – How Facebook, Google, Apple acquired and destroyed competition
12:54 – Google's purposeful degradation of search (with internal memos)
18:14 – Switching costs and why it’s so hard to leave platforms
24:27 – Policy and law as enablers of digital locks and DRM
28:20 – How social networks trap us through collective action problems
31:22 – Interoperability, OG App story, and adversarial tech
35:23/81:06 – DRMs, lack of ownership in digital goods and cars
54:46 – Amazon, predatory pricing, Prime, the "Amazon tax"
61:00 – Amazon's payola masquerading as search result ads
69:55 – Fake reviews, SEO hell, Google AI summaries, and "affiliate crap"
73:20 – When regulation works (CFPB banking order) – and why we lose it
77:56 – Web ad-blockers, apps, and why firms prefer apps (and you can't block ads there)
83:48 – End of property: digital features, car “subscriptions,” irrevocable company power
84:37 – Uber, algorithmic wage discrimination, how desperation means lower pay
89:14 – How to get involved: Electronic Frontier Foundation, grassroots action

Takeaways & Action

The "enshittification" of tech is policymade, not inevitable – meaningful reform is possible, and has happened, when laws are enforced (see cell number portability, or CFPB banking regulation).
Collective action, interoperability, and regulation can help restore power to consumers—but only if policy shifts and citizens demand it.
Support orgs like EFF, pay attention to digital rights policy, and understand that shopping your way, or "being a good consumer," alone can’t fix monopoly power.

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1280: Cory Doctorow | Why Everything Got Worse and What to Do About It