1281: Can Your Love Be Blind to Her Conspiracy Mind? | Feedback Friday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show – Episode 1281

"Can Your Love Be Blind to Her Conspiracy Mind?" | Feedback Friday

Release Date: February 6, 2026
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Co-Host: Gabriel Mizrahi

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Episode Overview

This Feedback Friday episode dives into listener questions about navigating relationships, workplace challenges, and personal well-being, all delivered in the signature witty, incisive, and practical style of Jordan Harbinger and Gabriel Mizrahi. The headline topic: can you build a real relationship with someone who believes in far-out conspiracy theories? Along the way, the hosts dispense advice on how to give tough feedback to a struggling employee, what happens when career ambition rattles a marriage, and how to protect your family’s inheritance.

Throughout, listeners can expect humor, candid talk, and moments of genuine compassion—plus a few spicy quotes and memorable metaphors.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Feedback Friday Banter & Language Rabbit Hole

[01:18–06:37]

• Jordan and Gabe kick off with their usual playful banter, riffing on cold-myth metaphors and the arbitrary “Jessica is the new Karen” meme.
• They discuss why there isn’t a male “Karen” equivalent, landing on the point that women are socially punished more for assertive behaviors.
  • “It's really obvious that women are punished for certain behaviors that guys are not... and this is one of those things.” — Jordan, [06:22]
• The opening sets the tone: clever, self-deprecating, and inviting listeners into their cultural observations.

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2. Can Your Relationship Survive Her Conspiracy Theories?

[06:47–20:04]

Listener Letter:

A listener from LA meets an otherwise compatible woman from NYC, but is alarmed to find she subscribes to wide-ranging conspiracy theories—like Wayfair child trafficking and denying the Earth is round.

Key Discussion Points:

• Recap and debunking of the Wayfair conspiracy (humorously dissected)
• Genuine concern about how you can raise children or build a life with such fundamentally different views of reality (e.g., vaccines, science, everyday facts)
• The hosts draw a crucial line between tolerable differences and irreconcilable gaps in “worldview reality.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments:

“You know that phrase, never stick your dick in crazy? This is never stick your Q-tip in QAnon.”
— Jordan, [11:41]

“Can two people who essentially have a different view of reality have a long term relationship? How much latitude do I give to a gal who doesn’t believe in longitudes?”
— Gabe, [13:37]

“At some point, just think about the level of intelligence—or maybe the degree of almost like low-key mental illness—required to believe in this day and age that the dang Earth is flat. A sixth grader can perform an experiment that disproves this.”
— Jordan, [17:09]

Key Takeaways:

• These aren’t “reasonable alternative” theories–there’s no “fixing” this gaping reality mismatch, and you’ll eventually suffer for it.
• People who fall for conspiracies are more often driven by fear, anxiety, and a desire for control/tribal belonging than by pure ignorance.
• If she’s already deeply invested in flat-Earth or QAnon-level ideas, that’s foundational—not likely to change for a relationship.

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3. How to Deliver Tough Feedback to a Struggling Employee

[23:25–38:45]

Listener Letter:

A senior staffer needs advice on communicating with “Joe,” a bright, eager young team member whose awkward, verbose, and poorly-timed public speaking is sabotaging his career advancement.

Discussion & Actionable Advice:

• The problem isn’t mere technique (public speaking classes), but a fundamental misunderstanding of what’s appropriate communication and when to contribute.
  • “Joe doesn’t need to learn to yes-and... he needs to understand that his whole way of communicating—his understanding of why and when to communicate—is completely off.” — Jordan, [30:32]
• Direct, compassionate, constructive feedback is necessary—“take him down to the studs and rebuild.”
• Share the impact his style has on the team, meetings, and clients.
• Offer specific examples, reinforce strengths, and clarify what success would look like.
  • “If you crack it, you’re going to go far.” — Jordan, [36:33]

Resource Recommendations:

• Toastmasters or a targeted oral communication course (once foundation is set)
• Possibly technical skills training, but only after a mindset shift

Notable Moment:

Jordan shares his own early-career “cultural fit” struggles, revealing how formative blunt feedback was in shaping his own path:

“These types of talks are what made me realize that corporate was just not going to work for me...”
— Jordan, [32:23]

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4. Behind the Scenes: Criminal Investigations and Government Fraud

[39:51–44:45]

Listener Letter:

An IRS special agent (and previous Feedback Friday letter-writer) updates the show on his career and offers critical insight for listeners wanting to report pandemic-related PPP loan fraud.

Highlights:

• The IRS Criminal Investigation Division—not the FBI—now spearheads most PPP fraud cases.
• Statute of limitations for fraud has been extended to 10 years; conviction rate is extremely high (94%).
• Federal prosecutors are more likely to take cases when investigators have established relationships.

Notable Quote:

“PPP loan fraud is being investigated, but it mostly isn’t by the FBI...The IRS has forfeiture power, so that high-end home she bought and renovated can be seized.”
— Listener/IRS Agent, [42:58]

Takeaway:

• Justice grinds on, and financial crimes have a long tail. If you see pandemic fraud, contact your local IRS-CI office.

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5. Life Pro Tip: Don’t Let Your Inheritance Get Lost in a Bureaucratic Maze

[49:07–53:18]

Gabe’s Recommendation:

• Ensure all beneficiary forms for financial accounts are current and reflect your real intentions—a simple form update can avert probate nightmares and save your family time and money.
• If you have unique assets (businesses, crypto, foreign holdings), work with a lawyer who truly understands them.

Notable Exchange:

“My previous lawyer was 70 and semi-retired and insisted on FedEx’ing everything...She was like, ‘Don’t worry about your nickels in the piggy bank, sweetheart.’”
— Jordan, [52:57]

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6. When a Wife’s Career Ambitions Rock the Boat at Home

[54:03–73:32]

Listener Letter:

A mother of four recounts an arduous journey to becoming a music therapist while raising young children and overcoming profound struggles with OCD, depression, and identity loss. After landing her dream full-time job, her husband—formerly supportive—turns hostile and resentful, even as her mental health and the family finances improve.

Deep Dive Discussion:

• They unpack her husband’s abrupt shift: possible overwhelm, loss of control, lingering shame at not being ‘the provider,’ or feeling ignored.
• Speculation that his anger may reflect deeper fear, anxiety, or even missing their old connection, poorly expressed.
  • “What he might really be saying is: I miss you.” — Gabe, [68:14]
• The importance (and challenge) of joint participation in therapy; refusal to engage is telling.
• The impossibility and toxicity of “failure” narratives for ambitious parents; perfectionism’s toll on identity and mental health.
• How to focus on communication, mutual empathy, and re-evaluating standards for “success” in complex, evolving family life.

Notable Quotes:

“Calling what's happening here ‘failing’...that’s probably overly simplistic. In an ideal world, that’s an ongoing conversation between the two of you.”
— Jordan, [70:11]

“There is always more going on beneath the surface. In her case, anything less than exceptional might automatically make her feel like a failure.”
— Gabe, [72:14]

Takeaways:

• “Perfect” work-life balance is an illusion; focus instead on open communication, empathy, and being adaptable together.
• Both partners’ needs and vulnerabilities must matter; avoiding couples therapy may indicate deeper problems.
• High achievers especially need to watch out for rigid “success/failure” traps.

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Selected Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Never stick your Q-tip in QAnon.” — Jordan, [11:41]
• “Can two people who essentially have a different view of reality have a long term relationship? How much latitude do I give to a gal who doesn’t believe in longitudes?” — Gabe, [13:37]
• “Joe’s problem is deeper than technique or some style or skills. This guy doesn’t need to learn to yes-and...he needs to understand that his whole way of communicating...is completely off.” — Jordan, [30:32]
• “At some point, just think about...the degree of almost like low-key mental illness required to believe in this day and age that the dang Earth is flat. A sixth grader can perform an experiment that disproves this.” — Jordan, [17:09]
• “What he might really be saying is: I miss you.” — Gabe, [68:14]
• “There is always more going on beneath the surface. In her case, anything less than exceptional might automatically make her feel like a failure.” — Gabe, [72:14]

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Additional Resources (Mentioned)

• Previous and related Jordan Harbinger episodes on:
  • How to talk to conspiracy theorists
  • 6 Minute Networking (work relationship-building)
• IRS Criminal Investigation Division reporting links (PPP fraud)
• Trust & Will (for estate planning)
• Toastmasters (for public speaking)

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode epitomizes The Jordan Harbinger Show’s brand: sharp, sometimes biting humor, pop culture fluency, and genuinely useful, nuanced advice for real-world situations. Jordan and Gabe are unafraid to “call it as they see it” but do so with compassion and practical wisdom, making the show as entertaining as it is insightful.

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Conclusion

This Feedback Friday tackled everything from the dangers of “conspiracy thinking” in relationships, to the importance of honest career feedback, to the complexity of modern parenting and marriage. It’s a must-listen (or read) for anyone trying to be a better partner, boss, or human—and prefers their wisdom with a side of jokes.

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For full episode transcripts and sponsor information, visit jordanharbinger.com.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. Hiring for a small business is one of those things that sounds simple until you actually do it. Because you're not just filling a seat. You're choosing somebody who's going to affect your team, your customers, your culture, and your stress level. And when you get it wrong, you feel it immediately. It costs you time, momentum, and way more money than people want to admit. That's why LinkedIn Hiring Pro is so useful. It's basically like having a hiring partner built for small teams. Something that helps you hire with confidence without turning hiring into a second job. You can describe what you need in plain language and it helps streamline the whole process. Drafting the job, surfacing the right candidates, shortlisting them, even handling AI powered interviews for the initial screening step. So instead of spending hours buried in applications, you spend more time talking to the people who actually have a real shot at being a great hire. And it's fast. Nearly 60% of hirers find a candidate to interview within a week. So if you want to save time without sacrificing quality and you want to hire right the first time, check out LinkedIn Hiring Pro Hire right the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off toward your job. [e-mail] harbinger that's LinkedIn.com harbinger Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, with the name your price tool.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

From Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Pricing coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Ugg boots. Keeping my frozen tootsies warm as we trudge through this tundra of life conundrum. Gabriel Mizrahi.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I like that one. Nice to mix in some cold metaphors.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I feel like it's usually hot Dumpster fire hellscape.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, not today. No, no. Today we're chilly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Today it's an arctic wasteland.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, a glacial expanse. Today we need a jacket, a fur.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Lined parka and some long underwear. That's right. That's how ice cold the doozies are gonna be today. Or so I assume. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use. To impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. We rocket scientists, generals, jihadis, drug traffickers. This week we had Cory Doctorow, author of why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and what to Do About It. It's a hard cover right there. Haven't inshitified those yet. Well, debatable. We talked about how tech companies are making their products and life more generally worse for all of us in order to make more money and of course, what we can do about it. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on the Gold Standard. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, ones we can use without being anyway, and compare me and Gabe's ramble through life's big questions to an Antarctic walkabout. So, Gabe, before we dive in, funny thing. I was scrolling the gram the other day and I came across this local news segment about how Gen Z has their own Karen now. Like they have their own name for what millennials call a Karen. And that name is Jessica.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, I heard about this, actually. Hilarious.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it made me laugh pretty hard because for a while there, that was my go to annoying girl name here on the show. By just pure coincidence.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. And then we got a bunch of emails saying, hey, my name is Jessica. Can you please stop using my name whenever you need a character in a story who's annoying? And then we changed it up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We changed it up. I'm happy to do that. But apparently now it's official. Jessica is the new Karen and it was not my fault. I swear.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To be fair, asking us not to use the name Jessica to describe a Jessica. Such a disrespectful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Such a. You know, that's a good point. Maybe we should just go back to using Jessica. It's not our fault, guys. The whole generation decided we don't make the rules.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So do we know why Jessica is the new name now, or is it just arbitrary?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So they talked about this a little on this segment, and part of it is that Jessica is obviously a very popular girl's name among millennials, but it's also because both Jessica and Karen have that K sound.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was about to say the hard consonant. Yeah, the K. It's funny.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The hard consonant. It just makes it funnier, right? You can't say like it's an Angela. It doesn't slap as hard hitting that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

K. You do love Angela, though.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do love Angela. It was the only one I could think of. I don't know if you said Beatrice. Actually, that could work too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, it's just Ann. Not as funny.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not as funny.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hitting the K just slaps for some reason.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It does. It's an interesting example of how certain sounds and language can create an instant punchline.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, totally. Same with movies. You know, those hard consonants usually make for good movie titles.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true. Yeah. It's just, I don't know, more evocative or something. Anyway, I just had to share that with you guys. No shade on Jessica's we love you guys is not your fault. I feel for you, just like I felt for and feel for Karens who aren't annoying both of you. And so it's arbitrary. It's so arbitrary and ridiculous. But it did make me laugh because, man, it's such a thing on the show. And here it is. It's, like, official now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

By the way, I was chatting with one of our listeners, Madeline, and we were talking about the whole Karen thing, and she asked an interesting question. She goes, is there an equivalent male name? Like, is there a male equivalent to Karen?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not really.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They say it's Kevin, but nobody's like, you're such a Kevin. I've never heard anyone say that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, that's people trying to make it a thing. Like, oh, it sounds kind of like Karen. Let's make it the male version. It doesn't work. But also, you know what I mean? Now we're turning this into a serious conversation, unintentionally, I suppose, but there is no male equivalent. And it's not because guys don't do annoying things or want to talk to the manager. I mean, maybe guys are more likely to just mouth off or start violence instead of talking to the manager, but it's because women are punished more for doing that kind of thing. That's part of what makes it, quote, unquote, annoying is it's considered probably masculine behavior to, like, stand up for yourself and demand something.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Facts.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's the problem. Like society. If a guy's like, hey, this isn't what I ordered, or, this isn't what I wanted. You said this, and you get something. They'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, sir. And you'd be like, yeah, let the manager handle it, or, can I speak with the manager? That's a totally appropriate response. If a woman does it that exact same thing, people are like, ugh, what a Karen.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There's a bit of an archetype with the haircut and the Whole aesthetic. There is the look of that. And there is such an equivalent with certain men as. Well, there is. I don't know if it's a buzz cut or a certain. Like a kind of polo shirt or whatever. But yeah, you're right. There might be some subtle misogyny baked into the very idea of the.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Karen, there is. And everyone, listen, y' all know me. I'm not the guy who's like, there's subtle systemic misogyny everywhere you look. And I'm trying to, like, dig up stuff. It's just really obvious that women are punished by for certain behaviors that guys are not. And this is one of those things. Absolutely.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So interesting. I didn't even think about that. But you're making a very good point. Anyway, speaking of consonants and hard things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Shall we dive into the do's?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Let's get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I met a woman through a dating app. I'm in la. She's in New York, but visiting LA soon. We've chatted over the phone. We have the same ethnicity and religion. Not a total deal breaker for me, but preferred. While chatting for four hours the other night, I discovered she believes in pretty much every conspiracy theory under the sun, including that one about Wayfair being a cover for child sex slavery.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I covered that one.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I had not heard about this one until this letter, actually.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it might have been on Skeptical Sunday. Must have been a Skeptical Sunday, honestly. So Wayfair, for anybody who doesn't know, it's a furniture website. And if I recall correctly, some Reddit users, this is years ago, noticed that certain products on Wayfair had girls names and were listed for like over ten grand. So it'd be a chest of drawers and it would be named, I don't know, Catherine. And they're like, oh, my God, are.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You sure they weren't called Jessica?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was going to use that name. And then I thought, I'm just going to muck everything up. So people started saying that this is way too high for furniture. And the products were clearly, they had to be named after missing women or children.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is so nutty dumb. And apparently this started in a QAnon community I read.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of course it did. Where do you find people with a low enough number of brain cells to come to these conclusions and agree with them? It's insane.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, I started laughing when I was reading up on this. So these people believe that humans are being trafficked out in the open right next to quirky bookshelves. Seems like an odd venue for that, but okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's one of those things where you have to believe two things at the same time about conspiracies. Like, everyone doing it is so advanced and it's a secret cabal. Also, they use plain English on websites that your crazy Uncle Frank, who's up till smoking weed that he grew in his backyard, spots it and posts it on Twitter and everyone can see it. So it's like you just really have to believe that this conspiracy is one, international, two, run by all these super powerful people. And three, they're so dumb that they can't hide it. And it's so obvious to anybody who looks. I mean, none of it makes sense. To be fair, though, Wayfair does have a lot of experience with logistics, you know, moving things around.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's true. Yeah. Plus they allow returns, so they do return.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Child would not stop crying. Demanded food and water. High maintenance.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

One star assembly was impossible. Took three times as long.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dark.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Anyway, Wayfair had to vehemently deny the allegations, which is so absurd. And my understanding is they actually renamed the products and then gave more detailed descriptions of them so people would not be confused. Quote, unquote, confused.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah. Can you imagine being the marketing person who had got this assignment on like a Monday morning? So have you seen the week Twitter over the weekend? Yeah. So we're going to need you to read. Right. Instead of nightstand and has to say, definitely not a child from Albuquerque. Just a set of drawers.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

These people sometimes engineered wood media center is just engineered wood media center. Like it doesn't require much more than that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, here's the thing, guys, full disclosure. I have to poke holes in this conspiracy theory because Wayfair is a sponsor of the show and the master of puppets is pulling on my strings. They're insisting that I distract everyone from their crimes against humanity.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Mission accomplished. Good little puppet. So our friend goes on. Also, the moon landing was fake. She wouldn't say the earth is flat, but she did say that it's quote, unquote, definitely not round.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know what any astronomer would tell you? That it's not perfectly round.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The Earth is a trapezoid. Everybody knows that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know. I hear the science is still out on that it could be a rhombus. Yeah, I'm an avowed rhombite. Anyway, ridiculous. The whole thing is ridiculous.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Needless to say, I think all of that is not only complete horseshit, but also that people who believe it are, for lack of a better Term stupid.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If I'm being empathetic, I'd say they're scared and confused and these conspiracies make them feel in control.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That was really cute and nice, but yeah, if you were being yourself, what would you say?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, if I'm being Jordan Harbinger, which I will do right now, I'd say you're right. They're dumb as hell. There's no getting around it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And I basically told her as much as gently as possible. She actually asked if I thought she was stupid for believing it, which I kind of appreciated.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, bonus points for self awareness, I guess.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know, my first instinct is to run for the hills, but I think I might at least hang with her while she's in town and get an in person vibe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, my first instinct is to run, but she's hot, so, you know. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The attractive to looney tune ratio is unfortunately real.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And they share a background and he thinks there's something there. But I mean, I too, if I was also like, well, we're both Zoroastrian. Like, the number of people that you can meet is limited. Okay, so yeah, NYC to L. A. You live across the country and I don't know, I kind of get it, but that's not going to get you over this hump, my man. Speaking of humps, have fun with that. But don't put a ring on it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Put a nuva ring on it maybe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. That's right. Or just stay away. You know that phrase, never stick your dick in crazy? This is never stick your q tip in QAnon.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Instant classic. I love that. I do wonder how early in the four hour facetime they had she brought up the flat earth thing. Or was it like 15 minutes?

[Jordan Harbinger]

But isn't it amazing we can talk across the country. Yeah, it bounces the signal off satellites that go around the globe. The globe you say?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You mean the curved piece of paper on which God scribbled his plans for the world?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That one. That one, yeah. How do satellites work? Oh, you know, something, something. The. How do they explain that?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's why they're so busy. Anyway, he goes on, but imagine having kids and one wants to vaccinate them while the other thinks vaccines cause autism. Or you want to let your kids use fluoride toothpaste, but oh no, the government controls your mind with fluoride. I think I just answered my own question.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Great. Yeah. All right, Q2 now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Done. Moving on, my man. Yeah, Open and shut case.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My friend is going through this right now, his wife is a health influencer and they have huge differences in how to raise the kid. So unfortunately, he let it go because he didn't feel that strongly about it. He was kind of like, oh, it doesn't matter. I'm just gonna let her have her way. And I was like, no, you don't understand. Measles is real dude. Anyway, he basically just gave up because he didn't want to be in conflict with her. But now they have babies that don't have vaccines and they have all these unspecified health problems. It's not because of the vaccination stuff. I don't know. I mean, I don't have the details, but I think they also didn't get all the other kinds of, like, medical care that you get for kids that you have to get for kids or that you really should get for kids. I don't ask him the details because I don't want to get into it. But it's very curious that a health influencer has super unhealthy kids and has forewent a lot of important things that you should do when you have kids.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Can two people who essentially have a different view of reality have a long term relationship? How much latitude do I give to a gal who doesn't believe in longitudes?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think you could tell. My strong feeling is that no two people who have fundamentally different views of reality, they can't have a long term relationship or not a truly successful one anyway. Not without avoiding some big topics and just pretending that this isn't a huge issue. This is not. You know, I'm a Democrat and she's a Republican or she likes to eat vegetarian most of the time. That stuff is a big challenge for a couple, too. But I think there's ways to make that kind of stuff work. If both sides agree on core values, if they can have reasonable and respectful debates, they're not super entrenched and identified with their positions. This is. On the other hand, I believe in basic science and you don't believe in basic science. This is. I believe in math and physics and you just don't. And you don't have an alternative explanation. You just don't believe in these things.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I believe Wayfair is a place to buy a shower curtain and you don't.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. Well. Or I believe Wayfair is a place to buy a shower curtain, too. You can also buy smuggled children from Albuquerque or Modesto for that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's a start. That could work. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, you're going to be like, honey I'm going to buy a win rack and she's going to be like, no, we might get a Ukrainian girl by mistake. So I don't know. As far as dumb conspiracies theories go, these are by far the dumbest, man. She's not talking about the JFK assassination or the COVID lab leak theory or Boeing whistleblower death stuff. Those are examples of conspiracies that are kind of. All right. I don't want to say I believe in them completely or whatever that people should, but they, they fall into the category of huh. There's some interesting ev. Not enough to say for sure, but we can't entirely dismiss them. I've talked about this on the show. I am not a die hard lab leak theory person. I'm not super conspiratorial by nature at all, obviously, but I don't think we can just 100% dismiss that possibility anymore. There's a double digit percentage chance that that's just what happened and it kind of makes sense. The Boeing one, I don't know. I haven't read deeply about it could be a coincidence. It probably is, but you know, it's a little sus. There's something there that's like, Jen, my wife, thinks all sports are professional sports, the big game. She thinks they're rigged.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not rigged outright and that everyone's in on it, but like that maybe refs push people or that players throw games and we sort of found out that that's true. I mean we did an episode about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That and I've heard this from a lot of people. I mean people think the refs in NBA are correct.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, that's mostly what she's talking about. I mean we don't watch sports, but we'll watch the playoffs. And she's like, do the refs not have access to all the same video footage that we have? And it's like, nope, they're just making these calls and it's like, I don't know. So that's. There's stuff where reasonable people come up with theories and maybe they're not true or they believe things that are a little conspirator but Wayfair selling children online. The earth isn't round. I mean this is just the dumbest of the dumb conspiracies. It's bottom of the barrel BS that's so easily disproven is just laughable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Totally. It's like the Twinkies of conspiracy theories. Just empty calories that you don't have to think about at all in order.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To enjoy these theories, which. Can you even call them that? I mean, they attract the most gullible, tribal, low intelligence, low IQ people out there, period.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Which is ironic because they're also the hardest to believe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that's, that's a good point. To a person with a decent iq. Yeah, but I guess that is my point. Just think about the level of intelligence or maybe the degree of almost like low key mental illness required to believe in this day and age that the dang earth is flat. A sixth grader can perform an experiment that disproves this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Honestly, it's terrifying if you really stop and think about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's terrifying that these people have the right to vote as well, and they do exercise it at some point. It's enough to give you the goosebumps. Look, the only thing that might make this work, as if this woman is somewhat flexible in her beliefs, somewhat open to accommodating other evidence. I mean, a lot of people who believe silly conspiracy stuff, they can be talked to because they will believe anything. So you just show them science and.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They'Re like, oh, okay, that's the best version of this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's the best version of this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But if she were that kind of person, would she have fallen for this stuff in the first place? I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. So yeah, look, it's already doomed if she's already been sucked into the flat Earth funnel. That just really says so much about her at her level of reasoning. I don't know that you're going to be able to fix that or why you'd even want to try.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I feel like if I had to sit down with somebody and deprogram them from flat earth, it would already be over for me. Like, I don't know if I could be attracted to somebody who had to be talked down from that particular ledge.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Same. Look, there's not enough Cialis in all of the CVS pharmacies in all of California to compensate for that boner killer. But you gotta decide what you can live with, man. This is just us. Yeah, sadly, I don't have high hopes because this isn't just about believing some out there stuff. It's about the values and skills and just general awareness that those beliefs imply. That's the deeper problem.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We've talked in the past about how to talk to a conspiracy theorist. To your point, Jordan, most people who fall for this stuff, it's not just that they're dumb. Although that does seem to be very common. Some of them, by the way, might Even be above average in intelligence. I guess those people exist, but it's really that they are vulnerable that's the problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. They're vulnerable because they're anxious to an almost pathological degree. Or they're scared, they're confused, or they feel out of control, or they feel the world's out of control. This is all. That's all very common.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or they feel alienated, they feel misunderstood.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And that is a dangerous cocktail. And believing in the conspiracy gives them a sense of, you name it, Control, safety, or belonging. And if you look at the world as so many people do, and you go, man, this is scary. There's all this dark stuff happening. I don't trust the people in charge. I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense. And then you find a community that goes, look, it can all be explained by this really simple idea that you just happen to be able to wrap your head around. That can be really comforting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yep. And then you have all these new friends who believe the idea, too. And I think that's also comforting, for sure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would not be surprised if this woman had some of those qualities. And if you wanted to, you could try to suss those out and learn more about them and validate them and try to help her see what role these conspiracy theories are playing for her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, but that's a big lift, man. And I'm not. I'm not sure it's your job, to be honest.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, no. Look, if this was your sister, I would take the time to do it. Your cousin. Sure. Your best friend growing up. Sure. Some gal that lives across the country that you met on a dating app. Why bother my dude? Why?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, he might have his reasons, but I don't know if it's worth his time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, I think we all kind of know the reasons, but, like, you don't have to do that much to anyway. And most of these people, they tend to be pretty defensive, and they can be pretty dug in. So my guess is you're gonna have to invest a lot of time to maybe make some progress when you really could be spending that time with someone who you know isn't a kook. But look, if you want to have a fling, if you guys get along at a certain level, and that's interesting, what's the harm again? Be safe. Take precautions. Don't get too involved with somebody like this, at least until you learn more. But this conspiracy thing, this will become an issue eventually. We're going to link to a bunch of episodes we've done on talking to conspiracy theorists, how these people think, why people fall for kooky stuff. All that's going to be in the show notes for you. I'd give those a listen and go from there. She's probably not your gal, but it's great to learn this stuff early on. This is good to find out now. And good luck. You know what's locked up in a shipping container with your name on it right now? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and amd. Most of us don't think about cybersecurity until something breaks. Your power goes out, a system locks up, or somebody says, hey, this isn't supposed to be happening. The cybersecurity tapes starts right there in that uncomfortable moment before anyone realizes how bad things might get. Instead of explaining cybersecurity from the outside, Steve and Samir throw you directly into a story where small problems stack up fast. A brutal storm, a utility under pressure, strange system behavior, and a team trying to decide whether this is just bad luck or something more serious. You follow people making real time decisions with incomplete information. Tired, distracted, hoping it's nothing. Which is exactly how real world incidents unfold. What's great is you don't need any background in cybersecurity to follow along. You're just listening to a suspenseful story that happens to teach you how these situations actually spiral. And since this is part one of episode 12, it's very much the setup, the calm before things really go sideways. Perfect. Time to jump in now and stay tuned as the rest of the story unfolds. Subscribe now to the Cybersecurity tapes by Dell and amd. Wherever you get your podcasts, this episode is sponsored in part by bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy and Bombas is leading that charge. In my house we love bombas so much. It's all we wear. We even gift it to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the grip socks so we don't slip around on our floors. Bombas just launched their new sports socks which are amazing for whatever you're into. Running, golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year and these things are cushioned, sweat wicking and packed with techy features that make it feel like your feet are final on your side around the house at night. I'm living in their Sunday slippers which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights and Bombas also has underwear and tees. Buttery, soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ruin every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated over 150 million so far. Head over to bombas.comjordan and use code jordan for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O-M-B-A-S.com jordan code jorphdan@ checkout. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on our [e-mail] deals please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday okay, next.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Up Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a senior staff member in a large government office working with a fantastic team under an incredible supervisor who has mentored all of us and helped us learn and grow in our careers. We have a young, relatively green member of our team, let's call him Joe, who has been with us for a couple of years. Joe is the lowest ranking team member and still has a lot to learn, but is nevertheless an asset. He participates in our projects, is eager to learn new things, and once he learns something, is generally able to do more of the work independently and reliably. He leans into every task he's assigned with an eager and positive attitude, never complains, asks questions when something isn't clear, and definitely adds value to the team. He's also our department's natural social coordinator and logistical king, organizing group happy hours and arranging all meeting locations and travel logistics flawlessly. But Joe has a significant trait that's holding him back from advancement, and my supervisor and I have struggled with how to help him. He's an incredibly clumsy and awkward speaker in nearly all but the most casual one on one interactions. For example, in a meeting he'll pipe up to make a point and trip over his words, pause far too long to gather the next obvious word or concept, and use a cumbersome number of filler words and phrases, not just, but stating and restating completely unnecessary phrases from the original question or topic. It becomes so cumbersome that it's difficult to pay attention long enough to understand the point he's trying to make, and frequently the point he's making doesn't really add any value to the discussion.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh man, that's a real problem. I feel bad for this guy, but yeah, definitely something he needs to know about it Sounds very annoying as well.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The impact of this is far, far worse in a public meeting or when addressing a citizen committee. We rarely give him defined speaking roles in these situations, but the meetings are often casual enough that different staff members can chime in to emphasize a point or to add context.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, I know. Oh, boy. Okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

When Joe does it, it is always cringeworthy. Often he's piping up to restate something that was just said, but with fits and starts, and you can see members of the public or committee simply go cold. Another thing I've noticed is that in more intimate team settings, like when I'm giving him instructions to carry out a task, he eagerly interjects as I'm speaking, trying to finish my sentences to show how he gets it, which he often doesn't. Or interjecting with irrelevant examples, all showing that he's thinking more about what he can say in the interaction than listening to the direction I'm giving.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, this is so annoying. Even hearing about it is annoying.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Brutal, dude.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So that's coming from wanting to look good in front of you guys and wanting to prove his worth and wanting to be taken seriously. All of which he is clearly is doing the opposite. Exactly right. But this is so common, especially with younger employees, and it's probably might be something he can just nip in the bud.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I hope the poor oral communication skills are holding him back significantly. He's applied for several promotions and been passed over for all of them, and it kills my supervisor to be unable to promote him.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, that's interesting. Why does it kill his supervisor?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I'm puzzled. He's just not ready to rise up. Right. He's not a leader yet. What's the problem?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why is that so hard on the supervisor? Or am I just. Am I robot Jordan who's like, hey, if you were compassionate, this would be hard on you?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, I think. I mean, unless he means that they want him to rise up because they like him. Yeah, but they can't because he's a liability, and that's just stressful for them, I guess.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, but then coach him or let him go. Why is the supervisor agonizing over not being able to promote him if he's not promotable again? Maybe I just need, like, an ounce of compassion here more than I already have. I'm getting a sense that they're just tiptoeing around this guy and they're avoiding giving him really important feedback, and then they complain openly about him, and that is not going to fix this problem.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All of this is extra interesting given that the supervisor is apparently such a great mentor and has supported and coached them all so generously. But when it comes to this guy, it sounds like she doesn't quite know what to do. Anyway, he goes on. She's recommended that he take a course in public speaking, but didn't provide a specific course to plug into. And he hasn't pursued this because that's not real feedback.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Joe doesn't realize what a problem this is, right? He's not motivated to fix it. This supervisor was kind of like, oh, go take a Dale Carnegie course, hoping that that's going to fix it. But someone needs to sit this kid down and have a real talk about how he's showing up at work and how he views his role in this place.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was recently on an interview panel for his most recent promotion application where he performed very poorly with nerves overlaid on his generally awkward speaking pattern. Having interviewed him gives me a unique opportunity to provide him some constructive feedback.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Great. Good. Now we're talking.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know I can deliver it in a way that's helpful and affirming, but I'm worried that his confidence is already going to be dinged by still not landing a promotion after so many tries to. I don't want to further undermine his confidence to the point that he loses his comfort around speaking up at all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hear that, But I think it's also possible that he'll just be bruised enough in the best way to be receptive to this feedback.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Finally, I totally agree. Now he can't deny the results, and there's a pattern of being passed over. So he might be primed to take this in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then you're coming along and going, hey, you want to know why you're not rising up? This is why.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think he has to be willing to rattle Joe a little bit, right? He can't protect him anymore.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, 100% correct. Our friend here, he's not going to be a dick about it. He's not looking for ways to cut Joe down even more or, like, flex his power over him or whatever. He's just saying, hey, you need to hear this. That is necessary, and that's honestly, it's part of his job.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But more than that, I wonder if the two of you have any specific actionable resources I could recommend for him. There is a course at our local community college on oral communication that I'm going to recommend, and our supervisor would support his taking time to take it during the workday. I've looked for storytelling classes in our area but haven't found anything. And I don't think improv is what he needs as he shows no nervousness about speaking up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's the problem. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Are there online or other resources you're aware of that I should recommend? Maybe ones that would teach the fundamentals of structuring spoken word. Signed, trying to abide and be a good ally to a wide eyed underling who's hopelessly tongue tied.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Man, Tough situation. It can be really hard to manage somebody who has a massive blind spot like this because on one hand you're watching this kid put his foot in his mouth and trip over his you know what left and right and you're like, okay, someone's gotta tell him. On the other hand, it is super awkward to have to point something so painfully obvious out to somebody else because if they're doing this and they don't realize how problematic it is, then your feedback might be quite jarring. And that's a daunting task.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, totally. He's saying, I don't want to ding his confidence, but I think he might also be saying, I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm going to feel cruel or guilty for throwing this guy for a loop and hurting his feelings.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. And that might be why he's going. Is there just some chorus at the learning Annex? I can send this guy to frigging improv Olympics or something like that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Make it someone else's problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right, because that's easier than having a real conversation with the guy. So as you can tell, I don't think that's the solution here. Joe's problem is deeper than technique or some style or skills. This guy doesn't need to learn to yes and or understand what makes a great story arc or whatever. He needs to understand that his whole way of communicating his understanding of why and when to communicate at all is completely off. He needs to learn that part of being a good communicator is reading the room, understanding what people actually need from him before he opens his mouth. And he needs to understand that talking is not a smart way to look good and be perceived as effective and important and useful. He needs to understand that what he's doing is actually doing the opposite.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. He needs to be taught that these public situations are not opportunities for his own enhancements.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, exactly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That could be a nice secondary effect if he does his job well. But this is not his politicking time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, he's there to add value and serve other people's needs first. And foremost, not to hear himself talk.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I feel like this is an employee you kind of have to take down to the studs and then rebuild. It's not someone who just needs some tweaks here and there. Zip Zap. Zop at the UCB is not going to do it for.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. It's so funny. Zip zaps. I love that game, by the way. It's an improv game for people who don't know what we're talking about. You do a lot of fun stuff in improv and it is good for getting people to come out of their shell. Joe is not in his shell. He likes hearing himself talk and he thinks he's doing a good job and is a disaster. The whole motivation for talking is the problem here. Anyway, as wounding as it can be to be taken down to the studs, as you said, these are the kind of talks you need to get when you're young. And I think everyone who's successful has gotten a few around that age. Especially.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dude, I definitely got a few. When I worked at my first job out of college, there were a couple moments when I did a Joe like thing and I'm grateful for my managers for saying, hey, just so you know, that's not what's needed in that moment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, got it. These types of talks are what made me realize that corporate was just not going to work for me or especially certain corporate environments where people were really had really fragile egos and a lot of power. Because I remember people telling me, like, it's funny because we handled a letter like this last week, but it was like, tone down your personality. Don't try to have a sense of humor at work, things like that. This is a British law firm. Surprise, surprise, right? They did not like anybody with personality.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, this is the one where they got mad at you in the elevator for saying BS on the cufflink.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So that was actually the same firm but in New York. And then when I was in the uk. Yes, good memory. I got in trouble and a talking to on Monday because I went in the elevator and a partner, like a senior partner said something like, oh, what are your plans for the weekend? And I was like, oh, I'll probably go to the pub and maybe go to see the London Eye and the, I don't know, Natural History Museum. And I said, what about you? And he's like, I've got a fishing cabin. And then apparently he immediately emailed somebody and was like, that young man had the temerity to ask my weekend plans after I Asked him his plans. And I was like, what the actual. So when they talked to me, they were like, did you ask Mr. Crawford what his weekend plans were? And I was like, yeah. And they were like, why? And I said, because he asked me my weekend plans. And they were like, that man has worked very hard to get where he is. And I was like, I'm still at a loss to why I did anything wrong. And to this day, I'm kind of like, nah, bro, that's a you problem.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He was reading something into it that did not exist. What? That you were suggesting that he wasn't working hard enough.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think it was just like, he's allowed to ask me what I'm doing, and I'm not allowed to ask what he's doing because it's inappropriate for me to be informal with somebody like that. Even if they're informal with you, which to this day, I'm kind of like, nope, you're weird if you do that. And I don't. You cannot change my mind. You're being weird, not me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's absurd.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ridiculous. So that was why I was like, I can't work at Linklaters. It's this British law firm. It's kind of a cool. There's cool people there. Don't get me wrong. But I was like, this corporate culture does not jive with me. And then when I worked in New York, I went to a different firm, and I was like, okay, don't make these same mistakes. And I remember the partners there were like, hey, who got the fucking pizza? And I was like, no, no, no. This is my place. This is my place. I get it here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

These are my people.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It all sort of added up to me being like, you know what? This whole corporate thing, this is gonna be a weight on my shoulders if I can't be myself. And so I created a job where I'm myself all the time. And it works.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, but Joe's problem is different. Joe's problem is that he needs this lecture. It's appropriate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He does. And him being himself is the problem here, too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is the problem. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This isn't asking a partner what he's gonna do in the elevator. This is him wasting everyone's time in a meeting because he wants to a different and bigger problem. So I definitely feel it's time for a very direct, very supportive conversation with him about your observations. And the way I'd frame this is, hey, listen, Joe, I've been working with you for a while now. I've seen you shine in a lot of ways you learn quick. You have a great attitude, you ask good questions, you handle internal stuff like a champ. I'm impressed and grateful for all of that. I've also had the opportunity to see what kind of leader and speaker you're shaping up to be, both on the job and on the last interview panel. And I want to bring your attention to a few things that I think are holding you back.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dude, really nice start. Love this. Perfect.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then I would just tell him about some of these moments. I mean, he probably already knows, right? The effect that his agenda and style are having on other people, on the vibe and success of those meetings, how other people see him. I would definitely mention that thing about restating stuff that was already said. The thing about interjecting when you're speaking, chiming in unnecessarily, finishing your sentences to show how he gets it and that he often doesn't get it. I would literally say the sense I'm getting is that you really want to show us that you're on top of it, that you're ahead of things that you don't need to be managed. And I appreciate that. But the reality is that sometimes you don't get it. I often see you thinking more about what you can say than actually listening. When your job in those moments is to understand, take notes, and execute. And then you might want to wrap up with something like, I know this might be hard feedback to take in, but I hope you can see that I'm sharing it with you because I genuinely want you to succeed here. I know you're frustrated about not getting a promotion, and if a promotion is what you want, then this is what you need to work on. And if you crack it, you're going to go far.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's perfect. Dude. No notes. This conversation could honestly change this guy's life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Listen, that's all I'd say at first. Let him take that in. Let him respond. My hope is that he thanks you for this and he asks a few questions and he. He goes off and thinks about it and he makes some changes. If he doesn't respond well or if your words don't seem to really land with him, then I would back off. But that would be good information for you and your supervisor, too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. If he's truly promotable, then he is going to listen to this feedback. If he doesn't, then he doesn't actually want to be a good partner to them and learning. Rise up. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So that's my take. I think 80% or more of this problem is Going to be solved by him radically shifting his lens and his attitude. And if he works on this and he gets better, then you can help him look into a course.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. Best not put the cart before the course, you know?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Foundation first, then sign him up for Toastmasters.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm curious to know if some of the challenges that seem to be more about technical skills, like talking and fits and starts and filler words and being nervous, I wonder if those will also be resolved by this bigger conversation or if there is a technical aspect to his problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, my theory is that it will. He's probably sputtering and flailing and starting and stopping because he's nervous and confused and self conscious. Okay. Because on some level he knows he shouldn't be talking, but he can't help himself. And he's like, I need to say something so that people know that I'm smart and paying attention. If you just have a regular question, you just ask that question. But if you're like, how do I turn this into a speech on the fly? And you're not good at that, which nobody really is, for good reason, then yeah, you're gonna have a problem. So I think if he just shuts up, he won't have to worry about his performance. Cause he's not performing anymore.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's a really good point. Because he probably looks around and he sees people zoning out or going cold.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But then he keeps going, hoping he can like win them back over, prove that he should be talking. And that just makes him more confused, more anxious.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And since he's not really connected to the audience and what they need, it's making it really hard to even stay on message. So just racking focus back to the audience might clear most of that up. There's a lot of podcasters that ramble. I mean, I'm sure I do it too sometimes, but they'll ramble. And I'm thinking, why are you still talking? And the reason is because they're just thinking about their performance on Mike. They're not thinking about what the audience needs. So if you're going to be a good host, you need to mercilessly cut things that the audience doesn't need that are self serving. But look, if this kid still struggles, he might need some additional training. That's great. Hope he finds it. If he doesn't improve at all, he might not be the kind of guy who should be doing any public speaking at all. And that's okay too. But I do think he should know about this. I think he deserves a Real shot. And he's lucky to have a boss like you. I'm actually excited to hear how this goes. Good luck. You can reach us [e-mail], keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're toiling away for a grade A Machiavellian narcissist, your business partner has used your criminal past to push you out of the company you started, or you're panicking that your brother in law is moving your sister and their kids to a cabin in the middle of nowhere to murder them. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up [e-mail] we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter we bit wiser. It's a lot of fun. It's a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you. It's in your inbox most Wednesdays. It's a two minute read. Wisdom from the episodes, wisdom from our lives, wisdom from Feedback Friday. Mistakes other people have made that we've all learned from. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. Okay, what's next?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey guys. I'll start with a quick update from Feedback Friday, Episode 808. My wife wrote in after I had been rejected from the FBI. Then last December, I accepted a position with the irs. I completed my federal law enforcement training and am now a special agent with the IRS Criminal Investigation Division.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That sounds awesome. I'm glad we're reading this letter. I was excited about this one. Gabe. So this was an interesting letter. This earlier one, it was his dream to work at the FBI. His wife really wanted to support him after that setback. It was really sweet.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It was sweet. If I recall correctly, I think we talked about some good ways to support a partner after they go through a disappointment. And just like how to recover from rejection in general. Keep going. Stuff like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And apparently it paid off. Super happy to hear you landed on your feet, man. This is great news. It's funny how this stuff happens, you know, when, when God closes the door, he opens.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He opens an audit.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. He opens an audit. He opens an investigation. He makes you show receipts for that meal at the Sizzler. That's $1,100. I know, I know people think of the IRS as this super boring, functional agency, but obviously it is a very important agency. The Criminal Investigation Division's got to be kind of interesting. I mean, you're basically doing police work building cases, but financial ones. And that sounds pretty cool, actually.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You guys recently took a letter from a guy whose ex committed PPP Eidl. That's economic injury, disaster loan and other Covid relief fraud during the pandemic. And I wanted to share some additional information with you. The FBI is actually not the correct agency to contact about PPP loan fraud, and federal prosecutors don't like cases that are very complex unless an investigator they have a relationship with is bringing it to them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's super interesting. It also makes a lot of sense. Also, weirdly great plug for 6 minute networking. Better text your DA buddies on the regular or you won't get to slap cuffs on a perp who made up employees to buy a frickin g wagon. You know the spiel. It's 100% free. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com okay. Relationships, man. They are everything. Everywhere and every industry.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The IRS Criminal Investigation Division is handling most PPP loan fraud cases due to their complex financial nature and because they often intersect with employee tax evasion schemes. If that listener wants to seek a legal remedy, he should reach out to his local IRS Criminal Investigation office. The fake financials that his ex used to secure the loan could be used to start a tax evasion case because she probably didn't put that on her tax returns.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Great point. So money. No pun intended. Yeah, I bet she didn't report her fake everything on her tax returns. She just cashed the checks.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In the FBI's defense, a lot of the offices are short staffed after the administration change and fired all agents who had anything to do with the January 6th cases. Rest assured, Jordan, PPP loan fraud is being investigated, but it mostly isn't by the FBI. The statute of limitations for those cases was increased to 10 years, so we have time to catch them. My Office has a $3 million PPP loan case going to trial this month, and the IRS Criminal Investigation division has a 94% conviction rate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ooh, that's great to know. Damn, that's a high conviction rate. That is some, like, North Korea level conviction rate. I mean, not quite, but man, I'm.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Guessing once it's giving Red sc.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Giving ccp. Yeah, it's. That's a high conviction rate. Man, I am guessing once the government has proof that you stole funds and you're going to court, you are basically totally screwed. You are done.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, and aggravated Identity theft. Using a stolen identity in the commission of a felony. That carries a mandatory two year sentence for each stolen id. Every fake employee the ex made up will carry a two year sentence if she's convicted.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Based on that story, there were at least three fake employees. So that would be six years. On top of the base crash, her ex won't be seeing the son till he's an adult. And the IRS has forfeiture power, so that high end home she bought and renovated can be seized. If you have any further questions that involve financial crimes, feel free to reach out. Signed, the tax man. Taking an axe man to these low lives and transactions.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It should be transactions.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, yeah, I just didn't want to go full T pain on that. Wisconsin. What's that line in that T pain song?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, God, I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have a mansion in Riscansan or whatever. Where are we in this side off transactions? It's not just an infraction for which the feds lose their attraction. We're getting traction with these subtractions, which gives me a great deal of satisfaction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Nicely done, Gabe. This letter has given me a great deal of satisfaction too, because y' all know I have a raging justice boner for this stuff. I find people who steal government funds. That's my money. It's our tax money. I find these people absolutely despicable. We all foot the bill for their gross selfishness. And they always buy the dumbest stuff too. Like five cameras for their vacation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, it never goes into an ira, does it?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. God, I was so glad to learn that there's a division whose sole purpose is taking these turds down and just flushing them. So not much to add here. We just wanted to feature this one because we still get a decent amount of letters about whether people should report Covid fraud or they know their neighbor did this and that. I was happy to hear that these cases are still being taken seriously. So if anyone listening ever wants to report someone who stole government funds, now you know the right department. You can find a list of field offices by region on the IRS website, which we'll link in the show notes. Congrats again on the new job, my friend. Way to roll with the punches. I'm sure you're doing excellent work. Work that matters to all of us. Thank you for your service and keep up the great work. You know what? You don't need to steal millions of dollars in government funds in order to enjoy the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Sometimes February makes it look like everyone else has their love life totally dialed in. And no matter where you are married, dating, single, it can mess with your head. But in reality, nobody's got it all figured out, even the people who look like they got it all together. And yes, that includes me. Shocking, I know. And yes, that's where therapy can be really useful. It's a way to get clear on what you actually want, what's been feeling heavy, and how to take some pressure off yourself, whether you're working on a relationship, recovering from one, or just trying to stop replaying the same unhealthy patterns. That's why I use and recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the us. Just fill out a short questionnaire so they can pair you with somebody who fits your needs. They've been doing this for 12 plus years and their match fulfillment rate is industry leading so they usually get it right one of the first few times. And if not, you can switch therapists anytime from their tailored recommendations. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Jordan that's betterhelp.com Jordan this episode is sponsored in part by Northwest Registered Agent. As a small business owner, I can tell you it's really easy to underestimate how much paperwork comes with getting a business off the ground. The behind the scenes documents that actually keep you legit. That's why I like Northwest Registered Agent. They make it easy to build your complete business identity, operating agreements, meeting minutes, compliance paperwork, all the unsexy but critical stuff. And you can do it in 10 clicks and 10 minutes. They've been helping entrepreneurs for nearly 30 years and you get more with Northwest. Thousands of free guides, tools, legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place without the upsell maze. Plus privacy is automatic. They help protect your identity, they never sell your data and everything is handled in house. And if you have questions, they've got over 1500 corporate guides. Real humans who know your local rules and actually help. So if you want more more guidance, more privacy, more free resources and you want to build your business identity fast, go with Northwest. Don't wait. Protect your privacy, build your brand and get your complete business Identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes, visit northwestregisteredagent.comjordanfree and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest registered [e-mail] jordanfree this episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audiobooks a week prepping for the show. And let's be real, there is just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all. Audio is my mode. I'm listening on Audible while I'm getting my 10,000 steps in, sipping coffee on the couch, all while jotting notes down into my phone. Honestly, I wish I'd had Audible back in the day instead of zoning out to hours of mindless tv. Imagine how much smarter I could have turned out. Listening on Audible feels like downloading knowledge straight into my head. Lately I've been into Michael Aaron Flicker and Richard Shotton's Hacking the Human Mind. Super fascinating stuff on influence, decision making, what actually drives people, and Audible's well being collection goes way beyond that. Brene Brown, Jamie Oliver on nutrition, even nature sleep sounds from the sleeping world. Whatever supports your mindset, health or daily routine. Audible has IT membership is $14.95 a month. After 30 days you can cancel anytime. Audible there's more to imagine when you listen Kickstart your well being journey with your first audiobook. Free when you sign up for a free 30 day [e-mail] jhs if you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals if you can't find a code, you can always email us jordanjordanharbinger.com we'll dig up that code for you. It really is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, Recommendation of the Week I am addicted to lip filler.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So a friend of mine's father recently passed away and she and her siblings have been dealing with all of the admin. When a parent passes away, settling the estate, selling the house and handling insurance and all of that stuff and her father had a will. The will was very clear, everything was in order. This percentage to this sibling, this percentage to that sibling, you know, all of that. Pretty standard. When they started distributing any remaining money from his accounts, they learned that their dad had not updated the beneficiary forms at all of his banks since he went through a divorce and he went through a bunch of life changes and the family had changed since then. So like one bank account didn't have one. And then another account listed his ex wife as the beneficiary, even though that didn't really reflect the will and she might or might not play ball on dispersing the funds properly. So now they can't do what the will clearly stipulated just from a a bureaucratic point of view. And it's becoming a huge headache. And it's probably going to be fine in the end, but it's just way more complicated than it should be. So what I've learned from her and my recommendation of the week is how important it is to make sure that all of your beneficiary forms are filled out up to date. And talking to your parents about making sure that theirs are all squared away before it becomes a problem. Some accounts that you have don't even require you to fill one out, weirdly enough. So sometimes you don't even realize that nobody is listed as the beneficiary beneficiary, which could mean that the assets go into probate, which, as you probably know, is a huge nightmare, often a huge waste of money. So this is super easy. It takes like five minutes. Oftentimes you can fill out these beneficiary forms online. You can do it through your institution's website or you can call them and they'll just walk you through it. I'm doing this myself. I asked my parents to make sure they did it. It's nice to know all of that is squared away. Just a few minutes of you and your family's time now could just save a ton of stress and regret later on. So I wanted to share that with you.

[Guest or Listener]

You.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Solid red cave. My parents did this as well recently. They just sort of went over everything. A friend of mine, his dad died and it was a mess. He had like multiple mortgages and all these bills and he wasn't sharing them with anybody. So months after his dad passed away, they would get another thing that was like, hey, you're still on the hook for financing this furnace. And she's like, what are you talking about? You know, it was over and over and over and it was a huge headache and a massive source of regret. And I guess he was also hiding things. Like he didn't want anybody to know that he didn't have stuff a his whatever set up. So it was like, such a pain. Yeah, get this done. It'll save your kids or whoever else a ton of time, a ton of headache. It saves a ton of money. So this is a little bit of a different kind of recommendation, but I like Throwing in some life pro tips like this here and there. And on a related note, I'll just say if you don't have a will and or trust, you need to get on that. There's no excuse not to have one. In this day and age, it's insanely easy to set up. You can do it online with a real lawyer, by the way. Don't just do like a full. Get a real attorney. We happen to have a sponsor for this right now. Trust and will. They make estate planning really easy. Most people complete everything in about 15 minutes, which is as long as it's simple, and that's amazingly fast. By the way, you can go to trustandwill.com jordan for 10% off customized legal documents. If you've been sleeping on this, this is your reminder. This just happens to match Gabe's tip, which is cool. I hope y' all don't mind, but you need to do this. When I got a by the way, I had one will, Gabe, and then we had kids and all this stuff, and I took that and I gave it to the California attorney that I have now. And I was like, yeah, blah, blah, blah. This here's what I got. And she's like, well, okay, this doesn't include your business. And I was like, how is that possible? And she's like, well, you don't have crypto, do you? And I was like, some. And she's like, yeah, none of that's mentioned in here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, wow, that's good to know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And I remember talking with the lawyer about it, but here's the problem, and this is gonna sound a little. What is. What's the word? Ageist or whatever. The previous lawyer I had was 70 and semi retired and insisted on federal expressing everything. And it cost like $100 to transfer documents to her. And when we wanted ST updated, she wanted us to highlight it and FedEx it back to her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Let me guess, that she did not know what the blockchain was.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. So I told her about bitcoin and she was basically like, that's not really a real thing, so who cares?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Don't worry about your nickels in the piggy bank, sweetheart.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was pretty much that. She was like, that's not really a thing, so don't worry about it. Kind of assuming it was all just fad and was going to go away. She doesn't realize it's actually an asset class and you have to deal with it properly. Anyway, so our new lawyer, who's a little bit younger and sort of on Top of this stuff was like, no, no, no. This is a disaster. You're so lucky we're changing this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Another great, great life pro tip right there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Make sure you get somebody who understands what you're doing. If you get somebody who does trust in estates for people and they've never done one for people with a business. Get somebody who does it with a business, especially if it's an online business and not a brick and mortar, that's going to be different. And if you have a bunch of, I don't know, crypto or something like that, or holdings abroad, you need to make sure people have experience with this because a lot of lawyers will just be like, it's fine, I put your Chase account on there and it's like, okay, now all this stuff is now in probate or just floating around and you don't know what to do with it and your kids are fighting over it or whatever, ever. It's not good. You do not want that. Anyway. There's a subreddit for the show. A lot of listeners in there. Gabe's in there, Bob's in there. I'm banned. Whatever. You can find it on Reddit at thejordanharbinger subreddit. Alright, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a mom of four kids, ages 6, 5, 3 and 2 and my husband and I have been married for almost eight years. He's always been my biggest supporter, encouraging, empowering, gentle, patient and great about sharing responsibilities at home. After our second child was born, I decided to go back to school for music therapy. Partly to help provide additional income for our family, but also because I was struggling with new parent identity loss and needed something that was just for me. Music has always been a profound source of connection for me and I've always loved serving others. So music therapy felt like the perfect merging of those callings. Amazing love that my husband supported us financially while I pursued my degree. I completed a five year program in three and a half years, all while navigating young toddlers and adding our third child to our family. She attended classes with me for her first six weeks of life until she could begin the university's daycare program. I graduated with a 3.9 GPA. When I was pregnant with our fourth child, I pushed through my internship while dealing with preeclampsia, gave birth, took six weeks postpartum, finished my internship and passed the board certification exam. All before my fourth child was a year old.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Holy mo. You are a warrior, madam. This is an insane amount of stuff to take On. I would not. I would not make it through that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I am exhausted just hearing about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And to pull it off at that level of success is really something. During those years, though, our family was under significant financial strain. Living on one income with four small kids was incredibly difficult. And no matter how much we budgeted or cut back, we constantly felt like we were drowning. At the same time, my mental health was deteriorating. Being home full time, while meaningful in many ways, amplified my ocd, depression and anxiety. I struggled with identity loss, isolation, and feeling like I wasn't contributing in the ways I wanted to. I struggled with suicidal ideation and even had a near attempt when my fourth was a few months old.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, wow. I'm very sorry to hear that. That is. This is tough. So this period, super productive, stimulating, gratifying. But it clearly caught up with you while you were home with the baby, maybe. Poor thing. I hope you found the support that you needed, someone to talk to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm in therapy and have been for years.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Great. All right, that was my next question. Very glad to hear you have that support.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I began working part time as needed as a music therapist at a hospice center nearly two years ago. But it wasn't enough to stabilize either our finances or my mental well being.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just want to wrap my head around this for a second. Postpartum stuff. Ocd, depression, anxiety, identity loss, isolation, all these big existential struggles in a near suicide attempt. And her next move, Gabriel, is to go back to work.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, so work is clearly very important to her. But you're right, that is a very heavy chapter to move on from. And then to go from that back into therapeutic work yourself.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a lot. It is a lot. I'm just picturing her working at this hospice center, which I imagine that's gotta be a pretty intense environment, sitting with people who are dying. And she's thinking, yeah, three weeks ago, I almost killed myself. Anyway, let me shake this tambourine at a cancer patient. I don't know. Look, I'm not trying to make light of this. It's just a heavy role for somebody who's struggling in their own life as well, that's all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, no, no, It's a good point. Not just that she's throwing herself into work, but that she's throwing herself into this work. Yeah. And I'm sure she could have written many paragraphs about the relationship between her own suffering and this big calling of hers, because there must be some connection there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Maybe working with people who are dying also helps put things into perspective for her, that would be one big upside to going back to work when you're this fragile.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All of this made the idea of moving into a full time role feel not just practical, but necessary both for our family's surv and for my own sense of purpose and stability.

[Jordan Harbinger]

She keeps mentioning this purpose and identity thing so that's clearly really important to her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Then last year I was offered a full time hospice music therapy position. This job opened a lot of doors for us and offered essential income, stability and health insurance. My husband and I discussed the major changes. Our two youngest starting daycare, him taking on school drop off and pickup, and me working a structured 8 to 5 with a long commute commute. Those conversations went well and I felt completely supported. So I started the job excited about the opportunity. We're six weeks into this transition and now things at home feel like they are unraveling. The house is a mess, the Google calendar is overflowing, and the learning curve at a corporate national hospice company has been astounding. What's been especially hard though, is how drastically my husband's behavior has shifted since I started working full time time. The man who has always been supportive, patient and involved has become moody, irritable and short with both me and the kids. He's begun yelling and saying demeaning things to me in front of them, and he stopped doing many of the household tasks he previously handled without issue. He often complains that taking the kids to and from school is hurting his work and productivity. And when I offer to adjust my schedule or take one of those responsibilities back back, he refuses, saying things like, you wanted to go be a boss, babe. You said your schedule wouldn't allow it, so stick to it and get out of here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yikes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But then in moments when I'm simply communicating logistics, when I need to leave or get home, what my workday looks like, etc. He'll say things like I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ooh man, this is tough. So obviously he's going through it too, and this way of communicating is not super kind and not helpful. He sounds angry.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Angry or just overwhelmed and probably out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Of control, which can cause a person to lash out for sure. Not entirely fair, but understandable. But whatever it is, even if he has a point, not the most productive way to communicate that to your spouse.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The inconsistency has been confusing and painful and I'm not sure how to interpret what is really going on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a really nice way to Put it. I love that you're asking that question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Same. The interpretation is everything, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Staying open to what your husband actually means by this stuff as opposed to deciding what he means and then, like, building a case around that, that's going to make this much easier to work on for sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Meanwhile, my mental health has actually improved. Being back at work full time has given me purpose, structure, and stability. We're finally climbing out of a deep financial hole, but my husband refuses individual and couples therapy, saying he's quote, unquote fine and that I'm the one who should increase my sessions if I need help or support.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Fascinating how often we hear that, that's too bad.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Am I failing my family the way my husband insists I am? Is this tension just growing pains after six years of me being the primary parent? Or is there something deeper going on? How can I navigate this transition, support my marriage, and still keep the progress I've worked so hard to make personally and professionally? Signed, trying to find the formula to conduct this increasingly unwieldy orchestra.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay. What a story. What a fascinating person. So much going on here. So I just want to reiterate what you've built. This large family, I mean, meaningful career, a very complex but stimulating life through sheer hard work and a strong sense of what lights you up. It's extremely impressive. And honestly, it's very inspiring. Like I said, you sound like a badass. I probably couldn't achieve half of this with four small kids, so well done. But all of that has played out alongside and probably informed in various ways some very real mental health struggles. And now these challenges in your marriage. And I'm. I'm sorry about that. I can hear how stressful and confusing it is. It must make all of this so much harder. Candidly, the challenges you and your husband are having, which, by the way, I don't think are super unusual. I think all couples struggle at various points to manage stress, communicate well, collaborate effectively, parent young kids. But they're the kinds of challenges that you'll probably make the most progress on in couples therapy. But the fact that he doesn't want to go, that's a real obstacle. And also probably an interesting data point in all this. Not only is your husband very different from you in this department. I mean, therapy is your career. I'm guessing he's resisting going because he doesn't believe that he's responsible for these challenges and. Or he doesn't want to have to deal with what might come up in session. Whether that's specific issues between you or his own stuff. Or just the basic vulnerability of working with a therapist.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or maybe having to give up the narrative that this is all her fault, basically. Or that she's the only one who needs to change here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Whereas agreeing to go means opening the door to a new story about what's happening between them. A more complicated one, and I think probably a more accurate one, which would mean having to take ownership of his piece of the situation. I can empathize with them to some degree. A lot of people, especially men, especially men who are new to therapy, they can find the whole project daunting. I get that. But when one spouse is saying, I'm fine, you're the one who should go to therapy more often if you need help. Not only is that kind of invalidating, but it shuts the conversation down. It just narrows the paths forward.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. And it puts the onus back on our friend here to make all the progress in their relationship, which is tough.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Which, to be fair, she might be able to make progress by taking care of her side of the street. That is possible, but she's already in therapy. It's not like she hasn't gone near any of this stuff before.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And the particular problem they're wrestling with, it's not just an issue with her. Right. It's about their marriage. It's about the way they talk to each other, the way they support each other, how they work through conflicts and grievances or whatever. So I'm. I'm not sure in what world this is just a her problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Agreed. Completely. And I'd actually go a step further and say it sounds like there's a lot happening on his side of the equation here. This anger he has, the yelling, the saying demeaning things, his complaints about the impact the kids are having on his work, the passive aggressive comments about her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And her career, which are all new behaviors, let's remember. I think that's interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. She said he was always supportive and patient and involved, and now he's moody, irritable and short.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Totally different. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In what world is that entirely her problem to resolve? I mean, it can't be. Yeah. Even if he believes that she's the one provoking him, stressing him, that's still going through some process in him. He's still responsible for how he responds and how he communicates.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But honestly, Jordan, like you said a moment ago, I think one likely explanation for this sudden change is that her husband is overwhel, overwhelmed and stressed and feeling out of control, because that does seem to be the one Big thing that has changed is how they've had to reorient their lives to make her career possible. It's understandable. How could they not be? They have four young kids. They're juggling two big careers. The logistics sound bananas. They, until recently, were having money problems. They each want to contribute. They each want to be fulfilled. That might not always be possible. At the same time, like, this is a lot for any couple to deal with.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. And also, as a man, I think I can understand why the financial piece of this might be particularly difficult for. For him. We don't know for sure, but I do wonder if maybe he's experiencing some unique stress and shame around struggling to provide for the family. And that's just coming out as anger.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's a really interesting theory. So I agree with you that he's not making things easier. If he just said, honey, I am totally overwhelmed. I'm angry. I'm not getting as much done as I used to. I'm struggling with what your new job is putting us through. I feel bad that I wasn't able to provide for us, whatever it is, you know, I want to support you, but this doesn't feel sustainable. Anything like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just. That would probably be a huge. A huge help. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Totally different conversation. Right. If he only learned how to do that in couples therapy, that would probably be a big win. Although I think he would probably learn a lot more than just that. But that's a useful thing to know how to do. But actually, my original point was, I think we're both very identified with our friend here. We want her to have purpose in her life. I want her to be able to earn this money, then contribute to the family. She deserves all of it. She's worked so hard to get here. But I'm with you. I also do feel for her husband, and I just want to make some room for a guy who is probably struggling with some big stuff of his own, quite understandably, and doesn't really know how to address it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Totally. This amount of chaos and instability would do a number on anyone. I don't like the way he's trying to manage it, which is really not managing it. He's just lashing out and blaming her. But I agree with you. She'd only be helping them succeed if she took a real interest in his feelings right now. As much of an interest as she hopes he'll take in her hers.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also imagine that there are a few different sources of his anger, and probably his anger has a few different functions in their relationship. Just reading between the lines here, and I'm also going to be speculating a tiny bit, but her husband might have some complicated feelings about her new career. He might support her in one way and maybe resent her a little bit in another way, or he might not have realized until this moment that he would have preferred that she stay home with the kids or thought of herself as a mother first and a professional second. He might have some residual feelings about that period where she was really struggling. I mean, he might be worried about her mental health still or her ability to handle all of this. Who knows? He might even be angry about the near suicide attempt if he knows about that. I mean, he might just be anxious about the uncertainty of the whole situation, and that's what the anger is about.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point. Like, have you really resolved all that? Is that going to happen again?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

As we were talking about earlier, being angry at her might also be a way for him to avoid looking at his role in all this. I mean, he might be angry at himself for agreeing to the new job, for not being able to manage things as well as he thought he could, but instead of trying to figure out what he needs to do to adapt, he's locating that in her. So the anger might be a little projective in that way, and then also.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Protective, like, I'm so angry at you for putting us in this situation. You fix it that way. I don't have to acknowledge that I signed up for this and might actually have to find better ways of working with it. Yeah, I could see that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also wonder if this anger and this passive aggression, if it might also be a language for a message he doesn't quite know how to articulate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting. So what do you mean? Like, that's the only way he has of communicating?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. And that he might be communicating something more than just his disapproval or his anxiety. Again, I'm speculating, but when he says, you wanted to go be a boss, babe, so, you know, stick to it and get out of here. Here. He might be saying, well, you said you were up for this. You rearranged our entire life to make it happen after a very crazy period. So now prove you can actually do it. Show me it was worth it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ah, interesting. So the subtext might be, he's challenging her, he's holding her accountable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's a nice way to put it. Or when he says, I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while, what he might actually be saying is, I just wish you would prioritize me. You know, I feel disconnected from you, or I feel misunderstood or I feel uncared for. What he might be saying really is I miss you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting. So the anger is just the tip of the iceberg, but underneath it is all these other needs and feelings and messages that he refuses to explore because he won't go to therapy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's possible. And if it's not those particular messages, it's probably other ones. So when she asks, is there something deeper going on, I suspect that that's part of the something deep, deeper. This is not ultimately a conflict about the kids school pickups or what their workday looks like or whose career should take priority. This is a conflict about what they need as individuals and as a couple and how they feel about themselves and how they feel about the other and what this new lifestyle is bringing up for them. And probably years of challenges and tension that seem to have accumulated and are now boiling over. And ultimately, I think it's about how they take care of each other through all of this, how they evolve to service this very ambitious vision for their lives.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Also, I'm getting the sense that they are just exhausted. And when you're exhausted, it's really hard to show up as your best self. Sometimes anger is just the easiest way to communicate when you're depleted. I do it all the time. I snap at my parents for something minor, and I realize Papa Jordi needs a nap and a banana. The obvious answer is, get more sleep. Take care of yourselves. But with four young kids and two careers, they might just go through a period where they're pushed to the brink a lot, and they need to learn how to work with that stress better. So are you failing your family the way your husband insists you are? Well, calling what's happening here failing, I think that's probably overly simplistic. I understand that your husband feels you aren't prioritizing the right things. He's allowed to feel that way. He's allowed to check in and ask if you are. And you're allowed to decide for yourself if that's true in an ideal world. That's an ongoing conversation between the two of you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, you haven't told us much about your kids, what they need from you, what challenges might be coming up for them. So it's hard to know if you're feeling failing them. I can't say for sure that you aren't, but you haven't shared anything that would suggest that you're, like, seriously neglecting them or anything like that? I don't know if you guys were like forgetting to pick up your kids from school regularly or one of your kids were having behavioral issues that weren't getting addressed or you know, like multiple nights a week mom is just MIA and we can't reach her or whatever, that's a different story. But even then, I would probably say slapping a label like failing on yourself kind of misses the nuance of a parent who is trying to be a great mom and also wants to have a meaningful, meaningful career.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What I'm hearing is that you and your husband are juggling multiple goals and responsibilities and that means sometimes handling parts of your life imperfectly. That's just what happens. I don't think the standard here needs to be perfection, whatever that means. I don't know any parent who crushes everything 100% all the time. And the standard here I think should be are we supporting each other? Are we talking to each other? Am I clear on my priorities? Am I giving all of us every advantage I possibly can given the constraints here? That is something you can achieve. Achieve.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also wonder where this failing idea comes from because she never said that her husband said that about her. He might be implying it and hey, maybe that is how he feels. But as you pointed out, Jordan, she is being pretty thoughtful about what interpretations she runs with. And it sounds like this is one of those interpretations. Her husband can have some legitimate questions and concerns about how they're managing their family, how they're balancing their careers without implying that she's a total failure and all of the judgment that comes with a label like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do wonder if the concept of failure is a big one for her, especially given what a high performer she is.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The mother of three who finished a five year program in three and a half years with an infant in one arm and got a 3.9 GPA while pregnant and worked through her pregnancy and all these medical issues. I mean, she must hold herself to insanely high standards.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, and those standards must be a big part of how she sees herself, what kinds of experiences she wants to have in life, what she deserves.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dude, I have massive respect for anybody who achieves at a high level. But I think we all know that high achievers, super ambitious people. I'm not going to say there's something wrong with them. I'm probably fall into that camp sometimes. But there is always more going on beneath the surface. And in her case, anything less than exceptional might automatically make her feel like a failure. And I can only imagine the impact that that belief must have on her identity. And on her mental health.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yep, that's where my mind went. I'm sure there were many things contributing to the OCD and the depression, the anxiety, the meaningless. I'm sure she and her therapist have talked a ton about this. But holding herself to this abstract, impossible, monolithic standard, that's got to be a big part of it. And how she meets all these difficult feelings that result, to say nothing of the childhood and life experiences that created these ideas in the first place, 100%.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would really encourage her to consider a less rigid, less black or white rubric for what success and failure actually look like in a situation like this. I also just want to make room once again for her husband's feelings about this perfectionism. In one way, he might be reinforcing the perfectionism by getting angry at her for falling short as a mom and as a wife. In another way, though, he might actually be shining a light on the absurdity of it. Like, this is the rubric by which you wanted to measure yourself. You know, how's that working out for you?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting man. So much going on between these two. So we went deep into this one. I hope we've given you some new angles here. I do think there's something deeper going on. There always is. I don't think this is just growing pains. After six years of being the primary parent, although this is obvious, obviously a huge shift for you guys, it was bound to be a little bumpy. The best thing you can do to navigate this transition, support your marriage, protect all your progress, is to communicate with your husband as well as you can. Try to understand where he's coming from. Try to empathize with him while you take care of yourself. Keep taking care of yourself as best you can. And your therapist should be a big part of that. But more than anything, instead of looking at your life and going, I need to do this perfectly. I need to get this right. I would try as much as you can can to look at it instead and go, I need to keep learning as best I can. I need to be open to evolving, to handle all of this as well as I can, knowing I'm not always going to get it perfect, but that I can always adjust along the way and do better, whatever that means to you. I think you're going to get a lot further that way with far less suffering, sending you, your husband and your kids a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Cory, Dr. Rowe and our Skeptical Sunday on the gold standard. If you haven't done, done so yet show notes on the website, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at. Gabriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Jamie Mustard, who signed a billion year contract at age five while he still believed in Santa Claus and spent his childhood inside Scientology's Sea Org where kids were warehoused like livestock and denied even basic education.

[Guest or Listener]

The story of the lost children of Scientology has never been told. And I really do believe if people knew what happened to us in the 70s, 80s and 90s, what happened to us kids in that environment, they would stop it. There's a line for the suffering of children. By the age of five or six years old, I just basically started to go completely numb. These thousands of kids, they have autoimmune disease, they're all doing construction. And most of them, some of the more successful ones, get lucky because they become contractors. But if people knew it would happen to us, which is the story that I wrote, that people would stop, it would be the end. On the day of my birth, I was handed over to a religious paramilitary organization, high control authoritarian group in a slum tenement where I spent the first two and a half years of my life with little to no human touch. And that would be the beginning, beginning of pretty much a 20 year gauntlet where I wouldn't go to school and I would literally be animalized. We weren't looked at as anything of value until we could work or contribute labor. I never went to school. The age of 20, I could barely write characters and I didn't know how to use a comma or construct a sentence or a paragraph. The reason I never spoke out is what I write about that happened to me. It's humiliating. I don't want anyone to know any of the things that we've talked about about today. I mean, I think Scientology is the most sophisticated mind control system probably in the history of the human species. I'm starting for the first time in my life to be shame free to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hear what happened during the largest FBI raid in U.S. history. Which makes you wonder how this all stayed hidden in plain sight. And when he finally escaped, nearly illiterate at age 19, check out episode 1270 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. I've got Homes.com as a sponsor for this episode. Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo. It's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids. It's also schools, nearby, parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. It's so hard not to say home every single day, single time. And when I say in depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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