1282: The Vagina | Skeptical Sunday

Summary

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The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1282: The Vagina | Skeptical Sunday

Original Air Date: February 8, 2026
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Co-Host: Jessica Wynn

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Overview

In this frank, lively, and educational Skeptical Sunday episode, Jordan Harbinger and writer/researcher Jessica Wynn break down the myths, taboos, and science surrounding the vagina—one of the most misunderstood aspects of female anatomy. Rejecting euphemisms and shame, they use proper terminology and skepticism to address everything from cultural discomfort and medical misconceptions to issues of health, pleasure, and product marketing. This episode aims to replace ignorance with knowledge while challenging stigma, sexism, and pseudoscience.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. Why Vaginal Literacy Matters

• Cultural Shame & Misinformation
  • Society openly discusses male anatomy but shrouds female bodies in secrecy and euphemism.
  • Lack of basic language hinders health advocacy, safety (especially for kids), and sexual fulfillment.
  • “If you don't know the language of your own body, it makes it harder to advocate for yourself with doctors, in sex ed, in relationships.” - Jessica Wynn [04:49]
• The Power of Naming
  • Using anatomical terms (vagina, vulva, clitoris) is not indecent—ignorance is.
  • Misuse of 'vagina' as a catch-all for female genitals compared to calling an entire face ‘your tongue’.

2. Anatomy 101: What’s What Down There?

• Vagina: Internal muscular canal.
• Vulva: All external genitals (labia, clitoris, urethra, etc.).
• Clitoris: Predominantly internal, highly sensitive organ responsible for most female orgasms.
• Cervix and Uterus: Other key structures, not to be confused with the vagina.
• “The vagina is a muscular canal. Everything external, the clitoris, the labia, the urethra, the part you can see, that's the vulva.” - Jessica Wynn [05:30]

3. History of Shame and Suppression

• Ignorance enforced from Roman times through Victorian era (and beyond); women deliberately kept uninformed.
• Sexual repression and body shame were (and are) tools of control and marketing.
• Modern progress (The Vagina Monologues, ongoing activism) still battles centuries-old stigma.
• “Historically, women were kept ignorant on purpose...” - Jessica Wynn [11:20]

4. Mythbusting: Size, Shape, and Function

• No, Sex Does Not ‘Stretch Out’ a Vagina
  • The vagina is elastic, comparable to a muscle: expands during arousal, childbirth, and returns to resting size after.
  • “Tightness” is often a harmful myth; the goal is comfort and pleasure, not restriction.
  • “The vagina is a muscle, I assure you, it’s not memory foam.” - Jessica Wynn [18:29]
• Vulva Diversity
  • Wide variety in shapes, sizes, and colors is natural—porn promotes a narrow, unrealistic ideal.
• Clitoral Truths
  • Only ~18% of women orgasm from penetration alone; clitoral stimulation is crucial [20:45].
  • The clitoris has ~8,000 nerve endings—double the number in the penis.

5. Cosmetic & Medical Procedures

• Function vs. Appearance
  • Many surgeries are functional (e.g., for congenital or post-trauma issues).
  • Cosmetic surgeries (labiaplasty, “rejuvenation”) are rising—often driven by industry-fueled insecurities.
• Product Pseudoscience
  • The vagina is self-cleaning; external washing is sufficient.
  • Products like douches, tightening creams, detox pearls are at best useless and at worst harmful.
  • “If somebody’s selling you detox pearls... ask for their data, not their discount code.” - Jessica Wynn [30:31]

6. Vaginal Health: Facts vs. Marketing

• Self-Cleaning & Microbiome
  • Over-cleansing and harsh products upset the delicate balance, causing problems like bacterial vaginosis and yeast infections.
• Discharge & Odor
  • Discharge is normal, varies by cycle, and rarely “dirty.”
  • Unusual odor or discomfort merits a doctor’s visit, not a spa or influencer remedy.
• Periods: Still Taboo
  • History of poor, male-driven product design; innovation still lagging.
  • Toxic shock syndrome from unsafe high-absorbency tampons is a real historical example [45:10].
  • Cups and period underwear offer safer, reusable options.

7. Societal and Medical Neglect

• Sexism in Research and Care
  • Women’s pain and symptoms long dismissed as ‘hysteria’ (whose root means uterus).
  • Modern gynecology built on unethical experimentation and ongoing racial health disparities (see the story of J. Marion Sims) [52:14].
  • Example: Endometriosis (1 in 10 women) often takes 7-10 years to diagnose due to dismissal of women’s pain.

8. Sexual Health and Pleasure

• Communication and understanding of anatomy are key to mutual satisfaction.
• The ‘orgasm gap’: 95% of men, 65% of women orgasm in heterosexual encounters [64:35].
• Kegels & Pelvic Floor Health
  • Kegel exercises strengthen pelvic floor but can be done incorrectly; some people need to relax these muscles, not tighten.

9. Vaginal Changes with Age

• Menopause brings changes (dryness, atrophy), but treatments exist.
• Staying sexually active helps maintain health.

10. Regulation, Politics, and Autonomy

• Ongoing legal, financial, and cultural control of women’s bodies.
• Access to care, accurate info, and products remains a challenge.
• “When women can control if and when they have kids, then they can control their education, their careers, their lives. And that makes some people very uncomfortable.” - Jessica Wynn [61:03]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Knowledge is not indecent, ignorance is.” - Jordan Harbinger [01:55]
• “Using vagina as a catch all term, it's like calling your entire face your tongue.” - Jessica Wynn [05:21]
• “Shame has always been a business model.” - Jessica Wynn [33:49]
• [On detox pearls and “pussy pops”] “Wellness does not mean science... my vagina is the last place I'd like to put citrus.” - Jessica Wynn [34:11]
• "Medical sexism sounds bad." - Jordan Harbinger [51:50]
• “Vaginas are not broken. They’re incredible. Anything that can produce pain, pleasure, and another human being should probably be celebrated and not be a taboo.” - Jordan Harbinger [65:29]
• “Just let your vagina do its job. And stop buying detox pearls.” - Jessica Wynn [65:40]

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Segment Timestamps

• [00:00-01:55] — Intro, frame for honest, educational discussion
• [02:25-04:39] — The Vagina Monologues & early messages about body shame
• [05:04-06:07] — Anatomy basics: Vagina vs. vulva, clitoris, cervix
• [11:20-13:19] — Historical repression of female anatomy
• [14:01-19:34] — Debunking myths: elasticity, “tightness”, porn-fueled expectations, clitoral facts
• [24:33-30:17] — Medical vs. cosmetic interventions; functional surgeries vs. labiaplasty, rejuvenation
• [30:31-36:04] — Self-cleaning truths, product myths & microbiome health
• [40:19-45:14] — Period talk: history, product innovation, toxic shock syndrome
• [50:11-52:14] — Period pain, endometriosis, “medical sexism”
• [53:14-56:44] — Hysteria, history of vibrators, modern screening (Pap smears)
• [58:04-61:25] — Birth control options, device mishaps, reproductive rights
• [62:18-64:00] — Pelvic floor exercises & misconceptions
• [63:13-64:55] — Aging, menopause, and sexual health
• [64:34-65:55] — The orgasm gap, advice for listeners, conclusion

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode is candid, playful, and deeply informative. The co-hosts blend humor and empathy, making potentially uncomfortable topics accessible and engaging. Their direct approach demystifies anatomy, counters shaming narratives, and arms listeners with the knowledge needed to advocate for their own health and well-being. The message is clear: vaginas—and those who have them—deserve accurate information, respect, and control over their bodies.

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Transcript

[Jessica Wynn]

Why have I asked my H Vac guy I found on angie.com to change my grandpa's trachea tube? I was so amazed at how he replaced our air ducts, I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think we should call a doctor Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail] welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Jessica Wynn on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays though, we do Skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest co host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic, such as circumcision, the lottery, toothpaste, crystal healing, diet pills, hypnosis, homeopathy, and more. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime and cults and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today. A little warning. This episode contains frank discussion about female anatomy using proper medical terminology. It's educational, it's not explicit, but if you'd prefer your kids learn this stuff, you know somewhere else first, maybe save this one for your commute. Today on Skeptical Sunday, we're diving into the beautiful, powerful and often misunderstood world of vaginas. The whole world of vaginas. Half the population has one, but we treat them like they're classified information. We use euphemisms and myths rather than just talking honestly. We'll discuss any other body part without a second thought, but say the word vagina and watch people blush and squirm. And especially when you say it like that, I guess. But heads up, we're going to be using proper anatomical terms like vagina, vulva and clitoris throughout this episode. Because here's the thing. Knowledge is not indecent however, ignorance is. And it's time we stop treating basic biology like forbidden knowledge from some mystical cave of wonders. Joining me to get deep inside vaginas is writer and researcher Jessica Wynn. Hey, Jazz. So let's dive in with an important, very scientific question. If your vagina got dressed, what would it wear?

[Jessica Wynn]

Quoting the Vagina Monologues right off the b. Impressive. I've always said she would wear a machine washable jean jacket.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Ah, the old Canadian tuxedo. Practical, sturdy, can go from day to night. So remind everyone about the Vagina Monologues.

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, the Vagina Monologues is this episodic play by Eve Ensler centered on women's stories about their bodies, sex, joy and trauma. It's meant to delete the shame from the feminine body. I actually saw it off Broadway as a kid in the 90s. Like, my friend had this really cool mom and she took us. Some people thought we were too young, but it definitely taught me that talking about our bodies isn't taboo. It can be powerful and funny and normal. Just buy every girl you know a copy of the play. Really? Everyone should read it and see it if they can.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I'm wondering how you knew some people thought you were too young. Did people come up and go, aren't they a little young to be watching the Vagina Monologue?

[Jessica Wynn]

Because it was like a day like we left school, we took the train to New York, and then of course I was talking about it and other friends, parents, teachers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, so not people who were there watching the Vagina Monologues saying, you're too young to be here. Okay, that makes way more. Because I'm thinking, like, what hippie goes to see the Vagina Monologues and is, oh, you shouldn't bring kids who are learning about their bodies to the. Like, those are the people who would applaud you being there. That makes way more sense.

[Jessica Wynn]

Very supportive audience. I remember one specific teacher, when I was talking about it, being shocked that we went and saw it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's funny. Cause it sort of proves your earlier point. She's probably like steeped in her own shame.

[Jessica Wynn]

Exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

About her own stuff and is. I can't believe they would allow someone else to do this. So is it a musical? Like, are people singing about vaginas or it's just a play.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's not a musical. It's a play. It's a bunch of monologues. Now, I think they have different women come out and do each monologue, but originally it was just the author doing a one woman show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So do you think women are ashamed of their bodies generally?

[Jessica Wynn]

That's subjective. Right. Some aren't. I'm not. And this episode's not about shock value. Right. It's about taking a skeptical look at myths and misinformation and helping people understand their own bodies a little better.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There does seem to be a massive cultural discomfort around vaginas. It's wild. We haven't normalized science based discussions about anatomy and health and pleasure and all that.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. We should be as comfortable talking about our vaginas as we are our lower backs. If you don't know the language of your own body, it makes it harder to advocate for yourself with doctors in sex ed, in relationships.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So let's start with the basics. Because even the word itself gets misused. People say vagina for everything below the. I mean, I do this too, right? I say something, something vagina people are like, oh, Jordan doesn't know what the vulva is. And it's no. And you also know that everyone says that and you're just trying to embarrass me. Screw. No.

[Jessica Wynn]

It can be frustrating how it's used. But can you confidently describe the difference between the vulva, the clitoris, the cervix and the vagina?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's actually not that hard. I mean, uterus, where baby go. Vulva, outside of vagina. Vagina, the canal. Cervix, at the other end of that thing. Right. I mean, this is not like, complicated.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, you've done your homework. A lot of people haven't. And most people can't tell the difference, including a lot of women. Technically, the vagina is the muscular canal inside the body. Everything external, the clitoris, the labia, the urethra, the part you can see, that's the vulva. So using vagina as a catch all term, it's like calling your entire face your tongue.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. To be fair, most men aren't experts on their anatomy either. I'll be talking about something and people will say like, oh, the glands. And I'm like, do you mean glands? And they're like. Or they don't even know what that is in the first place. They're using words like. Like, we have a lot of words for our stuff too. And I guarantee you most guys don't know what the dorsal part of their penis is, for example. They have no idea.

[Jessica Wynn]

And that's just a failure in our education. It's not really anybody's fault. You have to take the time to learn all of these things. But women's anatomy is More complex. So you've got a penis and testicles and yes, you have a bunch of little. You know, there's other parts, but it's less complicated.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I feel like generally it's less complicated.

[Jessica Wynn]

And we've got ovaries, uterus, vagina, cervix, clitoris, labia, vulva. Because we're designed to gestate life. And yet boys get clearer language. Penis balls, their gift, their power.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I've never heard anything that's cringe. Nobody calls it that.

[Jessica Wynn]

You never heard the gift. That's a pretty common one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, that's cringe.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it is very cringe. But women get euphemisms like down there, coochie, muff, and a whole lot of shame.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And then as adults, pharma gives men ED meds, while women face laws regulating their bodies. And ads imply their feminine odor is some kind of crime scene. And periods need to be disguised so that you can do gymnastics. Those ads always cracked me up. I would be little in watching these, and I'm like, I don't understand what this is for. She's swimming or she's like doing a bath.

[Jessica Wynn]

She can go on a hike.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, so is this an ad for gymnastics? It's an ad for hiking. It's an ad for riding a bicycle. And then when I was older, I was like, oh, mom, so when you have your period you can't ride a bike? And she's, what the hell are you talking about? I'm like, I don't know. I don't understand the advertising.

[Jessica Wynn]

My dad would turn the TV off. He could even watch the ads.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow, that's a bit extra.

[Jessica Wynn]

So old school. Like when he was in front of his daughter, it was just too much, which no fault to him. What kind of message does that send to your daughter if you're like, oh, shit, I can't watch this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Oh, I'm not allowed to see a pubescent girl ride horses.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Men just get, you know, behold, my mighty dragon of virility. And women get that. Have you considered that you stink when.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We talked about dicks? I got some pushbacks from surprising places. Like from men, not from women. When this airs, I fully expect emails saying it's vulgar or people had to turn it off because they were eating lunch or something like that. I don't know. It's. People get weird about this stuff.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I'm preparing for dick pics in my DMs, so more than usual.

[Jordan Harbinger]

More than I was going to say. What else Is new. Yeah, exactly.

[Jessica Wynn]

There is this bias in our language objectively. And naming anatomy correctly. It's not dirty. It's just grown up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So how do you handle teaching kids this language?

[Jessica Wynn]

You teach the real words. It's not inappropriate. It's actually a safety issue. When kids know proper anatomical terms, they can communicate clearly if something's wrong or if abuse occurs, euphemisms create confusion, and confusion may protect abusers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, I have heard that on social media, like, don't teach your kids these weird, like, euphemistic, silly words for things like cookie. Because then when the prosecutor or teacher, she's like, uncle Tom touched my cookie. It's like, okay, my uncle likes cookies too. And, like, they just brush it off, right?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. See, that kid doesn't know what they're talking about. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then the person's like, oh, yeah, she had cookies and I ate one of them. I'm not a pervert who belongs in prison. But if you teach them the real words, then they go to somebody, like, their doctor says, yeah, something went in my anus. It's like, well, she clearly told me that this bad thing happened and I have to report it now. There's no sort of hiding it anymore. I actually had a really solid health teacher in sixth grade. We thought at the time, too graphic. I guess it was probably fine. And then another one in seventh maybe, or eighth grade. I forget now. She had no qualms about any of this. It was super educational, but it was uncomfortable. A lot of, like, condom demonstrations. I remember, like, the guys and the girls both being like, oh, my God, when is this gonna be over? It was intense because you're not used to that, especially our generation. Right. It was like our first expos? To a lot of this stuff. And you're just sitting there learning about this, and you're like, oh, my God, what do we do? Class clowns were on overdrive. Oh, my God. I have to make jokes about everything because it's uncomfortable.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, we're definitely on opposite ends of that experience. And I was thinking about it. I think because I was in the orchestra, I got out of health class. Like, I would get out of health and gym. So I think I just skipped sex ed. I never had a sex talk at home. I just didn't live in that kind of house. So I did what kids do when adults won't explain things. I reverse engineered it. I looked at old encyclopedias, books I was absolutely too young to be reading, and movies that I probably should have had a permission slip for.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

And before anyone could shame me, though, I was like squatting over a mirror in my bedroom checking it all out, like, all right, let's see what's going on here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's vivid, I know, but I think.

[Jessica Wynn]

It was healthy and I think that's probably rare. But there are entire generations of women who have gone their whole lives without ever looking at their own vulva. And that's not accidental. So historically, women were kept ignorant on purpose. So from roman times through 16th century Christian Europe, the female body was tied to sin. And then later Victorian era medicine treated female sexuality as a disorder and shame was used as control and eventually to sell feminine products. So extreme sexual repression continued into the 20th century, but the late 20th century finally cracked the door open on talking about female reproductive health. And the 21st century keeps pushing it. Right. So there's things like the Vagina Monologues and non stop political fights over women's bodies that have become mainstream, but there's this centuries long taboo we're still shaking off.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I guess there were no chastity belts for men. There are now, but I should probably stop visiting those websites.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, Jordan, whatever you're into, we're not shaming here. But yeah, not that long ago there were modesty laws, corsets, and this whole chastity culture. So women were literally shackled. So a kid with a mirror is not the weird problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I thought a corset just made you.

[Jessica Wynn]

Look thinner, but it's also tying you up and so it's keeping you unavailable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, I didn't know that. I thought it was just something weird to make you look thin and smash your ribs together or whatever. I didn't know it was a chastity thing.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's harder to get to the skin, so you can't be as loose.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When I think corset, I think Wild west prostitute at a saloon.

[Jessica Wynn]

I don't think that's originally what it was meant for. I don't think originally it was meant to be this sexy article of, like lingerie or clothing. It was definitely meant to keep women in line.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Got it. Because I'm thinking if you're a prostitute, isn't a corset the last thing that you want on this is going to take 20 minutes to get off. Yeah. I have to relace this five times a day.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I've been walking through the red light district in Amsterdam and it's part of it. After they open the curtains after their customer leaves, you watch the madam retie the corset. There's definitely A fetish thing to it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah, you would think they're just like a zip up version. I don't know why we're on this. Okay, so the vagina's complexity is not really taught. It's hidden.

[Jessica Wynn]

Which is wild. Right? Because the vagina is remarkable. It can allow a 10 pound baby to pass through and then return to its original size a few months postpartum.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so a lot of people are going to say that's not true. But let's talk about the obsession with tightness. We spent a lot of time on penis size in episode 1225. But vagina size varies as well.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, absolutely. And there's this whole tight pussy, big dick mythology. Look, I will be honest, I'm a size queen. Dick size matters to me. But the idea that sex permanently stretches out a vagina is complete nonsense. The vagina is a muscle and muscles don't work that way. Vaginas are designed to deliver humans, not flatter men.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So it's not just. It's not a canal surrounded by muscle, it's a muscle itself. Or there's got to be some difference between that and like my bicep.

[Jessica Wynn]

The vagina is a muscular canal. It's this elastic fibromuscular tube and it's made of entirely smooth muscle tissue. That muscle is what connects the cervix to the outside of the body.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Got it. I just wanted to make sure because I know people are like, I'm not listening anymore. Because she said the vagina is a muscle. And it's technically. And it's like, okay, all right, so we gotta be careful here. So you're saying vagina size does matter, just not in the way people think. But there are differences in size.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, for sure. But size changes before penetration. So during arousal, the vagina goes through a normal physiological process called tenting, where the vaginal canal lengthens and widens, it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Relaxes and lubricates built in engineering. And I gotta say, it's really funny to read this because of course I think a lot of people maybe know this and a lot of people don't, but you see these guys on Twitter, they're usually like arguing for some sort of antiquated, in my opinion, point. And they'll say something like, vaginas don't actually change size and they don't actually do this. And not all women lubricate. And then the responses are all like, oh, my God, tell me you've never given a woman an orgasm without telling me you've never given a woman an orgasm. Or like.

[Jessica Wynn]

Or just never turn somebody around.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You've never aroused any of the women that you've been with because they're like, I've never experienced this. And maybe you want to delete that because that is a shocking accidental confession slash admission. Yeah. Yikes. That was one of the funniest tweets I've ever seen. The most funny would be the guy who took a picture of the scale. But it was reflective and it had, like, a reflection of his tiny, tiny little penis.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, no.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then the next tweet was, how do you delete a tweet?

[Jessica Wynn]

He should get an award. That's comedy gold.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And all these people are like, laughing at him. And other people are like, whatever app you have, click the dots. And then da, da, da. And it's like, oh, it's too late, bro. 16 million impressions later.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. And the vagina is highly elastic, and it can double in length from around 3 inches to up to 7 inches. So increased blood flow causes the tissue to expand and relax, which increases the flexibility. And then the width expands too. So the vaginal walls, which are folded and also highly elastic, expand significantly in width to accommodate penetration from a narrow resting size to about 2 to 3 inches in diameter during arousal. So the increased blood flow also causes the walls to secrete lubricating fluid, which reduces friction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's just. It's seriously impressive.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, it's wild. And tenting is why it can feel shallow when you're putting in a tampon, but can accommodate a well endowed partner. So since the vaginal canal is highly elastic with arousal, it can comfortably accommodate a large partner. And when that stimulus isn't there anymore, it naturally returns to its resting state. So, yes, you can get used to a bigger partner, but if you break up, your body adapts right back. There's no permanent change. There's no damage, there's no downgrade. Sex isn't stretching a vagina out like an old sweater?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that should clear up some anxieties and maybe some bragging, because I've definitely heard men worry that, you know, a woman is ruined by having sex with someone bigger. There's other damage that can occur, right? I mean, like, people can tear during childbirth and stuff like that. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about just because your girlfriend slept with somebody once who was more well endowed than you doesn't mean that some permanent thing.

[Jessica Wynn]

Definitely not a thing. We're not going to get into it. But of Course, there can also be damage if there's trauma. If there's forced penetration, you're not aroused. So that can cause different problems. But just generally speaking, that's not a thing. So any anxiety about that, that's their ego. It's not about her anatomy. The vagina is a muscle, I assure you, it's not memory foam. And it responds to what's happening in the moment. So the goal isn't tight. It's comfortable, aroused, pain free sex.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Men should know this. It works out better for everyone, for everybody.

[Jessica Wynn]

And anatomy varies for sure, just like penises vary. So vulvas come in every shape, size, color, and hairstyle. But we've created this idea of one perfect, like porn vulva, and that's harmful. And preferences are fine, but shame isn't. And the clitoris matters here too. It's a complex erectile structure that swells during arousal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting. Yeah, we covered the hairstyle thing during our redheads episode. You're saying the clitoris actually expands and contracts like it's got its own little tiny hulk boner moment?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's a clitoral erection. So blood flows in, it swells and firms up during arousal. Then after orgasm, it goes back down. And the visible tip of the clitoris, that's just a small part of a much larger internal structure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's what he said.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, but it's true. Inside it's much bigger.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I swear there's more in there somewhere.

[Jessica Wynn]

Do you see the size of her clit for clitorises? It's true though. And in fact, some are a little closer or further from the vaginal opening. And a new study found that women whose clitorises were farther away from the vaginal opening were more likely to have trouble orgasming due to decreased stimulation. So pay attention to your partner's unique design if you care about satisfying them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I feel like we should have standardized tests, maybe how to pleasure one another properly. I guess you don't get down there with a ruler, but you could just sort of eyeball it. We need a whole section on the clitoris, whatever test that is.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. The clitoris is so cool. And it has about 8,000 nerve endings. That's roughly twice as many as the penis. And they're all dedicated to pleasure. So it's basically the control center of orgasm. And here's the kicker. Only about 18% of women orgasm from penetration alone. So most need that clitoral stimulation. So get into it, partners.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's a lot of pressure on women to orgasm the right way.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. And it's based on bad information. And it's not a dig on men or women. It's just how our bodies are designed. If women can figure out how to make you orgasm, you can figure out how to return the favor. Add in a little DJing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

DJing?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Men jerk off, women DJ. That's what least my friend group calls it. Flicking the bean is just. Just wrong. Please don't flick anyone's clip.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, so that's what I've been doing wrong. All right, take notes, everybody. All right, before we go any deeper inside this topic, and yes, that pun was unavoidable. Let's take a quick break to hear from the folks who make the show possible. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Superpower Health Incorporated. I'm all for being protective about your health. If you wait until you start feeling off, that could be too late. That's why I recommend you check out Superpower to get a deep, meaningful look at what's going on inside your body. A licensed professional can come to your home, or you can go to a nearby lab. And from that one visit, you get insight into 100 plus biomarkers, which is way more than a typical checkup. Their app breaks it all down. Heart, health, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, even environmental toxins, supplements, sleep, diet. Everyone has an opinion, and most of it is generic. Superpower gives you an actionable plan based on your data, and you can even order what you need directly through them. They also show you your true biological age and track your results over time. If you have questions, there's an on demand clinician team to help you make sense of Superpower. Used to be 500 bucks. Right now it's $199 for the full experience. If you want to stop reacting to health problems and start getting ahead of them with real personalized data, this is the move.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy, and Bombas is leading that charge. In my house, we love Bombas so much. It's all we wear. We even gift it to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the grip socks so we don't slip around on our floors. Bombas just launched their new sports socks which are amazing for whatever you're into, running, golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year and these things are cushioned, sweat wicking and packed with techie features that make it feel like your feet are finally on your side around the house at night. I'm living in their Sunday slippers which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights. And Bombas also has underwear and tees. Buttery, soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ruin every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased one donated over 150 million so far.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Head over to bombas.comjordan and use code jordan for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.comjorphdan code jorphdan checkout.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Don't forget about our newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser. It's a short bit from me to you every Wednesday. It's an under two minute read. Highly practical, something you can apply right away. It's either wisdom from the show or wisdom from our lives. You can find it at jordanharbinger.com News now back to Skeptical Sunday. There are procedures out there women go through to alter the size and appearance of their vaginas. And, and I've heard this is on the rise, actually. What about things like labiaplasty?

[Jessica Wynn]

Some procedures are cosmetic, but many are medically necessary. So conditions like Meyer, Rokontansky, Kutzner, Hauser, which is M R K H I know, it's a mouthful. It's a syndrome that exists and it causes what's called vaginal absence, where the vagina and uterus, they don't fully form. So instead of a vaginal opening, there's just like a small dimple. And there's also severe vaginal stenosis where the canal is too narrow or scarred. So people who've had trauma or cancer or really complicated births, they can suffer from these. And for them, surgeries like vaginoplasty are about function and pain relief, not aesthetics.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this isn't about sexual performance, it's about health.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. And some people are born with these congenital conditions like mrkh. And surgeons may have to construct a new vaginal canal completely from scratch. That's called a neovaginoplasty and that can involve, like, skin grafts and dilators to prevent the canal from closing again.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oof, that sounds intense.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, because it is. But for people who need it, it can mean a normal, pain free life. Same with things like a hymen that's too thick or rigid, that can make penetration impossible or excruciating. And a hymenctomy fixes it. And there are pain conditions like vestibulitis, where the tissue near the vaginal opening is extremely painful. So the treatment for this can include physical therapy or surgery.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Now I get why knowing the language of your anatomy is so important. Oh, my God.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know, right? Because tightness isn't like a personality trait. It's sometimes a medical problem. And vaginal stenosis, that can be congenital, or it can happen after scarring from childbirth or like a radiation treatment or certain surgeries. And it can make sex painful or even basic exams painful. And that's where dilation therapy or surgical repair comes in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I associate dilation with labor. What is dilation therapy?

[Jessica Wynn]

So it's the same concept, but it's a different purpose. Dilators are medical tools used gradually over time to gently increase vaginal comfort and flexibility, especially when there's scarring. Or like a short, narrow canal. And it takes time. It's slow, consistent, medically guided progress. Which also kills the myth that penetration stretches out a vagina.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Those women would be like, where do I sign up for that? Gotta find a big one one night, and then you're good to go. No more inserting whatever that thing is and leaving it in there for six weeks.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, again, that's not how muscle tissue works. The goal is supposed to be pain free. And if someone is in pain, that's a health issue, not a compliment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. How are these procedures done? It sounds invasive, and it sounds a little bit scary.

[Jessica Wynn]

Sometimes it's minimally invasive tools, sometimes it's surgery. It just. It depends on the problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the headline here is vaginas aren't one size fits all. And the medical stuff is about health.

[Jessica Wynn]

Exactly. Then there's the other category. Cosmetic procedures marketed to perfectly healthy women. So the labiaplasty, that's done for symmetry. There's clitoral hood reduction, vaginal rejuvenation. That's where the line blurs between health and culturally desirable aesthetics.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Rejuvenation is a weird one. That's one of those, oh, is your vagina tired? Like, what are you rejuvenating?

[Jessica Wynn]

Offensive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Do you think porn plays a role in these aesthetic procedures, because there's gotta be some sort of industry standard people are going for. I would imagine, let's say in the 70s or 80s or before that you didn't see 10,000 vaginas and go like, oh, they should look like this. You had sex with whatever handful of people or a couple handfuls of people.

[Jessica Wynn]

And you were grateful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You were like, all right, works for me.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Porn has pushed this narrow, ideal vulva look. Hairless, small, barely visible labia. There's one acceptable model, but most vulvas don't look like that. And they don't need to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, it depends on the porn you're watching, I guess.

[Jessica Wynn]

But yeah, and then labiaplasty. That can be medically necessary if a woman experiences pain during exercise or sex. Exercise, yeah, things are moving around down there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my gosh. I never thought about that. But I guess you're right.

[Jessica Wynn]

Like, you're the only one who needs a cup. No, I'm just kidding.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I guess if your scrotum was, like, attached, weird. And you couldn't run, well, you'd want that to be fixed up.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. It could be painful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.

[Jessica Wynn]

But a lot of these procedures have become cosmetic. They're driven by comparison. Probably some shame. So if you're considering a procedure, just ask. Is this solving pain or function, or am I trying to look like an unrealistic template?

[Jordan Harbinger]

And there's a whole industry built around that template.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, man. It's a whole industry selling insecurity. And not just through procedures. The products pushed on women to fix, tighten, or clean their vaginas. It's outrageous.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is there maintenance required to have a healthy vagina?

[Jessica Wynn]

No, there isn't. Here's the really boring truth. The vagina manages itself. It has a microbiome that maintains its ph. Balance the outside the vulva. Wash, like normal skin the inside. Leave it alone.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I remember when I was a kid, you'd see ads for, like, summer's eve or whatever. I still don't know what that is.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's not good.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, it's. Maybe leave that outside. So all these ph balancing products or whatever, they're not doing anything.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, please. Ph balance your balls, guys. It's all mostly marketing. So the vagina is self cleaning. If somebody's selling you detox pearls or these vaginal steam treatments or rejuvenation surgeries and designer vaginas, ask for their data, not their discount code.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, hang on. I'm, ph, balancing my balls. I'll be right with you.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, please. Do. But seriously, these perfumes, these beads, they're harsh cleansers. They can cause irritation and infections. So when an ad says feel tighter, look younger. That's not medicine, that's Botox. For your insecurities and maybe your lack of satisfaction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So you don't need to steam your vagina?

[Jessica Wynn]

Only if you're cooking dumplings in there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow, you really can do everything with those. I did see somewhere online people are apparently, oh gosh, they're eating cow vaginas. And they call it a fragrant delicacy, which makes my stomach turn a little bit somehow.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, great. Yeah, I didn't come across that, but.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It'S like Vietnamese or something.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, fun. Let's not cover every incorrect use of a vagina here. It's a slippery slope.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Self lubricating slope, in fact.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yes, but I guess that's proof that vaginas can be delicious.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I have read about common problems. Like a lot of women get bacterial vaginosis and they don't even realize it. Is that from these products? Like the summer's EV type stuff? Ph, balancing, whatever.

[Jessica Wynn]

Sometimes. Definitely. Messing with the microbiome can increase the odds of BV and yeast issues. And then people buy more products to fix the problem the product created. So it's like this expensive little doom loop.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What about the probiotics and supplements and things like that? Is there any science behind those?

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, there's real science on lactobacillus being a key part of a healthy vaginal environment, but the supplement world is a mess. The rule is if someone's promoting vaginal detox, run.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So stick to the old fashioned douche then.

[Jessica Wynn]

Absolutely not. I can't stress this enough. Shower like normal and you're good. Douching is one of the fastest ways to disrupt the microbiome. And here's the fun fact. The douche didn't even start as a vaginal product.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What would it be? For your ears.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, damn. I was kidding.

[Jessica Wynn]

You're actually dead on. These Parisian guys invented the douchebag for bodily irrigation of ears, sinuses, bladder, intestines and vagina. So they went back to the drawing board and then just started aggressively marketing it to women as hygiene. In 1910, they even introduced a breast douche for, quote, thorough breast washing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But so that's not internal because you can't get anything in there. But honestly, I get so many sinus infections, I probably could use a sinus douche.

[Jessica Wynn]

Douche your nose.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. Nothing says medical innovation quite like man. This is not Working. This has failed completely. Let's market it to women by telling them that they need it.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know, it's like, shame has always been a business model.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I've actually recently gotten targeted for ads. I don't know, somebody must have been using my phone. But I'm getting ads for yoni pearls, somebody and tightening cream. And a lot of women owned wellness companies sell this stuff, like Goop and Lemmy. There's a yoni pearl is what? A pearl that goes in your vagina.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, yeah. Just place this stone in there and watch the magic happen. I'm not exactly sure what kind of psychosomatic stuff is supposed to be happening. It's all pseudoscience nonsense. Wellness does not mean science. A couple months ago, Kourtney Kardashian's company, Lemmy, launched Pussy Pops lollipops for your vagina that are, quote, formulated with pineapple and vitamin C. So I don't know about other women, but my vagina is the last place I'd like to put citrus. And my favorite part about the Pussy Pops is that her ad campaign shows her with a lollipop in her mouth, which makes me wonder what she thinks a vagina is. So I don't know when people started thinking they should or could alter their body's PH balance. But you can't. And if you do, you could die.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It reminds me of those people that they sell different kinds of water and they're like, this changes your blood ph. And I'm like, no, it doesn't. Because that would kill you pretty much immediately. Your stomach and intestines, digestive tract changes that into what it needs to be, which is regular water. And you don't need the machine.

[Jessica Wynn]

Way to get around the marketing restrictions on labels and things like, okay, we'll try this till they outlaw it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. Your lungs, your kidneys, all that stuff takes care of your body's PH balance.

[Jessica Wynn]

And what actually maintains vaginal health is balanced flora, hydration diet, and just overall health. If your genitals require a goop subscription, maybe capitalism's the real infection.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Keep your communism down there in Echo park, you hipster.

[Jessica Wynn]

Well, studies show there are more bacteria in your mouth than in your vagina. So relax and just don't believe the marketing hype.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What about discharge? People treat that like it's dirty, but not to be too gross. Isn't special cleaning needed there with the discharge and the smells and stuff?

[Jessica Wynn]

Not even a little bit. Go ahead and douche your penis hole and get back to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Whatever, but I pee out of there. So is that not. That's kind of cleaning.

[Jessica Wynn]

Discharge is part of how the vaginal microbiome maintains itself. It changes throughout a women's cycle. It's not dirty, it's information. And so if something smells sharply fishy or you have itching or burning, that's when you see a doctor, not a steam spa.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Got it. The vaginal microbiome sounds like an absolutely fire punk band, but what exactly is that? We should have probably covered that earlier.

[Jessica Wynn]

The vaginal microbiome is one of the most finely tuned ecosystems on Earth. What's happening there is the role of Lactobacillus. So it does get affected by antibiotics, by what you eat, sex, and hormones. Which is why over cleansing can backfire. If you use mouthwash 50 times a day, it just nukes everything, and then bad stuff moves in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I understand that. I actually knew a girl who used mouthwash literally, like 30 to 50 times every time we did anything. She was always mouthwashing, and it was like an OCD thing, I think. But she had sores in her mouth, and I was like, oh, but you're using all this mouthwash. And our friend who's like a doctor, he goes, no, what's happening is she's killed all the healthy mouth bacteria. So all these opportunistic infections that a normal person would never have move in there. It's like when you have HIV or something in the 80s and they couldn't counteract it, you'd get all this stuff that doesn't make sense because you're basically. Your immune system is totally gone. So there's a whole industry that has convinced a lot of people that vaginas need maintenance.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. I mean, it's the same thing when you're douching your vagina, you're. You're cleaning out all the good stuff, and the bad stuff moves in, and people are just convinced that vaginas are inherently wrong. In the 1920s, Lysol, the household cleaner, was marketed as a vaginal douche.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. Ouch. It's not the same thing, though. Is it that spray that kills all the. Is it the same thing?

[Jessica Wynn]

The thing people would clean their toilets with?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. The ads suggested that women who didn't douche were failing their husbands.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. Color me surprised that vaginal douching is encouraged because of men. But that had to cause chemical burns. If you get Lysol on your skin and you don't wash it off, it hurts, let alone on a mucous membrane.

[Jessica Wynn]

That's absolutely. But the ads kept running because shame sells, and that's still the playbook. The feminine hygiene industry is worth billions, and it's all based on lies.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what should people actually do?

[Jessica Wynn]

Wash the vulva with warm water and mild unscented soap if you want. That's it. Don't put any cleansers inside. If something feels off, talk to a clinician, not an influencer.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So don't give it a lollipop. Okay, but what about smells? What should vaginas smell like?

[Jessica Wynn]

They should smell like you. They should smell like you, not like me personally.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay.

[Jessica Wynn]

Every vagina should smell like Jordan Harbinger.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, a lot of them do, actually. Unfortunately for the. See a doctor, if your vagina smells.

[Jessica Wynn]

Like me, a healthy vagina, it has a mild scent, and that's normal. Your diet might affect it slightly, but the obsession with making it smell like flowers is just more marketing. And it's not consistent. Like, throughout our cycle, our scent changes. Men have scents, too, by the way, which is fine. But I have noticed these bogus products that are always marketed to women. They're starting to creep into the men's department, too. I assure you guys, you don't need Fresh Meadow Scrotum Mist.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. This episode brought to you by Scrotum Mist. Don't fix the problem. Mask it. Okay, so does scrotum mist actually exist? Is that a real.

[Jessica Wynn]

I made it up. But there are products that. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, isn't that kind of what Axe Body Spray used to be?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, Axe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Like, you could spray this under your armpits. Or we can get people to use more by telling them it should go all over their body.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Or you could just jump in the shower for five minutes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, no, thanks. That's too much work. All right, let's talk about periods. Because even saying period makes people weird. And there's people pausing this right now and stuff.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know, right? That time of the month. Aunt Flo. Shark Week. Just say period. It's a basic body function, not a shameful mystery. It literally happens to every woman once a month. Just say it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It seems like we're still shaking off how women were treated during their periods throughout history.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, we are. For most of human history, there were no pads or tampons. People used whatever worked, right? Moss, animal skins, papyrus. Even in ancient times, they would wrap lint around sticks, which I can't even imagine. That sounds awful. And then cloth rags became the standard. That's literally where the phrase on the rag comes from.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Gosh.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That all Sounds miserable.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, definitely not comfortable. And disposable pads didn't show up until the early 20th century designed by men who didn't menstruate. So these early versions, they had to be like, pinned in place or worn with belts.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What are you pinning? You're pinning it to your clothes, I hope.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yes. Not your skin, your clothes. Adhesive pads didn't become common until decades later.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's insane. Both that the products came so late in that women weren't the ones designing them because you'd think if you're going to make something, you might want to, I don't know, consult somebody with a vagina.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. And it's almost like women should be the ones making decisions about female issues.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Don't be ridiculous. This show is free because our advertisers are somehow less afraid of the word vagina than most politicians. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Drip Drop. I take hydration seriously. Your body runs on water. If you're a little behind, you feel it. I work out. I'm on the mic a lot. I need to keep these vocal cords nice and lubricated. So Drip Drop is my go to for staying properly hydrated. When I'm on top of it, my focus is sharper, energy is steadier, my mood is just better. It's one of those habits that quietly makes my whole day work better. Drip Drop is doctor developed proven fast hydration that helps your body and mind work better. Which is exactly what 2026 U actually needs. What makes it different is the formula. It uses a precise ratio of electrolytes and glucose for rapid absorption, delivering three times the electrolytes and half the sugar of leading sports drinks. So you feel the benefits fast without that heavy, sugary aftertaste or crash. And this isn't just a workout thing. Drip Drop's science backed formula is trusted by firefighters, medical professionals and over 90% of top collagen pro teams because it's engineered to rehydrate you faster and more effectively than water alone. That's why it's part of my daily routine. Not something I reach for only after exercise. And it also really tastes great, which matters. I like the watermelon flavor. I'm also a big fan of the zero sugar options. It's actually what I use. Plus they got flexible subscriptions, so I'm never stuck without.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is also sponsored by Shopify. I literally just bought something from a Shopify store and I knew it immediately because the checkout was almost too smooth. Like wow, they made it so incredibly easy to take my money smooth. That purple pay button pops up, it's one tap and I'm done. I don't hunt for my card. I'm not trying to remember a login. I don't have password roulette going on. Honestly, it shouldn't be that hard to give you my money. And with Shopify it's not. Which is why if you're selling anything, I recommend Shopify. It is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses worldwide and about 10% of all E commerce in the US from huge household names to brands that are just getting started. And on the seller side, it's not just make a store and good luck. Shopify helps you launch a beautiful site with tons of templates. It's packed with AI tools that can write product descriptions, sharpen your page headlines, even improve your product photos. Plus you can run email and social campaigns like you got a marketing team while managing inventory, payments, analytics, shopping and returns all in one place. Bottom line, less juggling, more selling.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their Shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Jordan go to shopify.com Jordan that's shopify.com Jordan thank you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For listening to and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday why did it take so long for product options for women to come on the market? It seems like this would have been lucrative in the first place. It seems like this should have existed forever.

[Jessica Wynn]

It was just ignored because menstrual health research was and is underfunded and disposable products then became insanely profitable which discouraged more innovation. If men bled from their balls once a month, every toilet would come with a built in bidet and free products. These products are expensive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I'm famously a bidet guy, so I can get behind that.

[Jessica Wynn]

But when profit drives design instead of safety, people pay the price. Like with the toxic shock Crisis in the 1980s with these super absorbent tampons.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I kind of remember that. What exactly happened?

[Jessica Wynn]

So toxic shock syndrome is this rare but life threatening Illness, and it's caused by bacterial toxins that the bloodstream. It's historically linked to these high absorbency tampons that were left in too long. But it's also seen with skin infections or surgery sometimes. It often shows as a staph infection and it comes on fast. You get like a high fever, vomiting, rash, dizziness. So if symptoms appear, remove the tampon immediately and run to the ER. But it was really bad in the 1980s because these ultra absorbent synthetic tampons, they let bacteria thrive and toxins build up, especially when they were left in too long, which was this design failure. And it turned convenience into a really serious risk until those products were pulled and safety standards changed. That didn't happen till after several women died.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh wow. Women died from this?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, oh yeah. It peaked in the early part of the 80s at about a hundred deaths a year.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

But they pulled the products and by 1989 there were zero menstrual deaths that were reported. So today we have more options. There's safer tampons, pads, cups, period underwear. The cups are the healthiest because they can be worn for up to 12 hours. They're reusable, they're eco friendly. And period underwear has these built in absorbent layers you wash and reuse, and they're game changers. So I discourage women from using tampons at all. Again, designed by one man, this guy Earl Haas, who didn't seem to think about how those fibers leave tiny scratches in our vaginas, which sets us up for infections.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I did not realize that, by the way, the cups, is that like a silicone thing that you dump out and wash?

[Jessica Wynn]

Dump it out, rinse it and put it back in?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hate to use this terminology, I feel bad, but it just sort of like plugs you up for a while. Is that what it does?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, it's just thoughtfully designed and it just collects the blood and then when it's filled, you dump it out and rinse it and put it back in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It seems like you could accidentally make a huge mess doing that if you pull it out wrong. I assume you gotta be sitting on the pot to do that.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, I mean, I've seen people do it in the ladies room at the sink.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Savages. No, I'm kidding.

[Jessica Wynn]

We're good at this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. That seems cause for me, I'm trying to imagine doing that down there without being able to see everything. And I just.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's like seeing a woman take her bra off without taking her shirt off, you know? You know you just kind of learn.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Impressive. Okay. Can you lose a tampon inside you? This seems dumb. I know. People are gonna be like, you're stupid and you don't know what vaginas are like.

[Jessica Wynn]

No, it's a fine question. But it can't go past the cervix, so a tampon can get stuck, though. And yes, accidents happen. I grew up with a girl. Her brother kicked her so hard in the crotch that her tampon had to be surgically removed. So these accidents can happen. And, gosh, I haven't thought about her in so long. But, Taylor, wherever you are now, I hope your vagina is happy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Her vagina might be fine. Her cervix has a dent in it. That's incredible. Wow.

[Jessica Wynn]

This is why anything you put inside your vagina should have a string on it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, but I assume it went into her uterus through. Like, it punched through her cervix or so. That must have hurt so bad.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it was quite the talk of.

[Jordan Harbinger]

9Th grade duck at the town. What about menstrual huts, Jess? What do you think of those?

[Jessica Wynn]

What about them? Do you think they're a good idea? Women being sent away during their periods to face exposure, sometimes violence? Women have died in menstrual huts.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Really?

[Jessica Wynn]

In places like Nepal today, girls are still sent to isolated huts during their periods because they're considered impure. And these huts often have poor sanitation, little food, no protection from cold or animals. And people have gotten seriously hurt or died from exposure. I read about a lot of snake bites happened to girls in these huts. So it's illegal in some countries now, but it still happens.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So a menstrual hut, it's not a spa retreat for you to enjoy and relax a little.

[Jessica Wynn]

Not even close. It's period shaming to its most extreme form. And that same idea that menstruation is contamination, it shows up in subtler ways, too, like tampon taxes. People are embarrassed to buy products. We just treat periods, like something to hide.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What about period pain? Because I feel like the default setting is take some ibuprofen and shut the heck up. It can't be that bad.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. Again, women have not historically had a seat at these research tables. So some cramping is normal, but debilitating pain is also really common. There was a recent study done by female doctors that shows menstrual pain can be as painful as myocardial infarction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

A heart attack?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, indeed. It hurts a lot. Not every time. And not everyone, but women experience vomiting, passing out, inability to function because there are often underlying conditions like endometriosis or fibroids. Again, the language about how complex female anatomy is matters. It's not just cramps. It's intense pain. Endometriosis is when tissue similar to the uterine lining grows outside the uterus that can cause severe pain, heavy bleeding, sometimes infertility. And about 1 in 10 women have it. And it currently takes an average of seven to 10 years for a woman to be diagnosed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's crazy common. And seven to 10 years. Why so long?

[Jessica Wynn]

Because doctors just don't take women's pain seriously. They say it's just part of being a woman or it's in your head. Women's pain is routinely dismissed as emotional or exaggerated.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's horrifying though, because endometriosis is crazy pain. I've heard of that before.

[Jessica Wynn]

People are just living with it. And it's well documented. This is a systemic issue, and it's rooted in centuries of medical sexism.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Medical sexism sounds bad.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's really bad. And modern gynecology in the United States was literally built on experiments and torture on enslaved black women. So this guy, J. Marion Sims, is often called the father of modern gynecology, but he developed surgical techniques by experimenting on enslaved black women without anesthesia.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Without anesthesia? That's Nazi level stuff.

[Jessica Wynn]

He operated on one black woman over and over, like at least 30 surgeries. And he claimed black women didn't feel pain the same way white women did, which is a racist lie that still echoes in medical bias today.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is truly disgusting.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, and today, black women in the US they're still three to four times more likely to die from pregnancy related complications. Recently, Serena Williams, she almost died after giving birth because the doctors didn't listen to her symptoms.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If Serena Williams, who's probably a billionaire, can't get doctors to listen, what does that say for everyone else?

[Jessica Wynn]

So when we talk about vaginas, we're not just talking about anatomy. We're talking race, class, power, history, and sex. Still, women's pain is generally dismissed as hysterical.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. So the word hysteria has a fun little etymology, doesn't it?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it does. Hysteria comes from the Greek word for uterus. And for centuries, any woman who was anxious or depressed or angry or just inconvenient could be labeled hysterical and was institutionalized. And then one of these treatments was pelvic massage. So doctors manually stimulated women to orgasm to supposedly release their hysteria. And eventually the vibrator was invented as a medical device not to help women, but to speed Things up because, and this is a real quote, the doctor's hands got tired.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. So the vibrator was invented to make male doctors jobs easier. That is ironic. So now it just replaces husbands, or so I've heard.

[Jessica Wynn]

Aw.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I also think it's worth noting here. This is before gloves.

[Jessica Wynn]

God, yeah. Raw dog medicine.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

The fact that pelvic massage brought women pleasure was treated like a side effect. So that's the level of absurdity we're dealing with historically. It's amazing they could even figure it out since the clitoris was barely acknowledged until the 20th century. Like it wasn't fully mapped until 1998.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is insane. It's like men who probably never even saw a vagina were treating them and treating them.

[Jessica Wynn]

Absolutely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do think it would have been funny to be a doctor back in the day who specialized in hysteria. Oh, yes, sir. I'll be over right away. Situate your wife on the kitchen table and go to bed. She'll be fine by morning. Wink, wink. Just put some gasoline in my special vibrator tool here.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, God. Gross. I mean, this ick is why I've always insisted on a female gynecologist.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Jessica Wynn]

But I want to tell you, the first gynecologist I went to was a man. I was 14, 15. Whenever you first go. He had also delivered me at birth. And he was in my whole family's vaginas. My mom, aunts, sisters. But at that first visit, I thought it was weird it wasn't a woman. And then Jordan, I saw his car in his designated parking space when we were leaving. My mom just laughed when I pointed out his license plate. This man's personalized license plate read Goldfinger.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, God.

[Jessica Wynn]

G, L, D, F, N, G, R. It's a hundred percent true. And I refuse to go back. I think Dr. Stack's dead now, so. I'm sure he was a fine doctor, but I would never have been comfortable discussing my body's development with him. Certainly did not want that man giving me a pap smear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What are those actually for? I've heard of those before.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. So a Pap smear is a screening test to find abnormal cells on the cervix that could become cancer. And it's incredibly important and it saves lives. And the procedure is relatively easy but really vulnerable. You lie on the table, your feet are in the stirrups. A speculum is inserted to open the vagina. I assure you, you're not aroused. And the doctor uses this small, like, brush to collect cells from the cervix.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that sounds like a medieval torture session.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it kind of looks like a torture device. It's uncomfortable and for some people, painful. But regular screening dramatically cuts cervical cancer deaths. And generally, if you have a cervix, you should be screened every three years starting in your 20s.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It just seems like there has to be a better way than a metal beak from 1900.

[Jessica Wynn]

Not surprising. Women doctors have now invented better options. Things like hpv, which is the human papillomavirus, which is extremely common, and it's spread through skin to skin contact. It has no symptoms, but it can lead to cancers that are now easier to screen for. So there's tests that look directly for high risk strains of the virus that cause cervical cancers. There's swabs for HPV that you can do yourself with no speculum now. And there are improved speculum designs. Thank you, lady doctors. And techniques that focus more on patient comfort. But the whole, like, women should feel pain, childbirth is supposed to hurt, stop complaining mindset, that's really slowed innovation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that's not all you go to the gynecologist for. Right. There's other issues specific to the vagina you have to look out for.

[Jessica Wynn]

Oh, yeah, of course. Yeast infections are really common. That's an overgrowth of yeast that normally lives in the vagina and causes intense burning and itching. There's bacterial vaginosis, which we mentioned before, which is an out of balance bacterial infection that usually expresses itself after sex.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dirty dicks. I knew it.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, that seems to be the culprit. And women often suffer urinary tract infections. That's not the vagina, but it's all in the same zip code, so people confuse the three. And studies show only a third of women who buy these over the counter yeast medications actually have yeast, so the rest have something else. Again, vocabulary matters. So trust your body when something feels wrong. But go to the doctor, which isn't.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Always so easy in America, depending on the options you have within your state and through your health insurance.

[Jessica Wynn]

Sure, that's why we need Planned Parenthood. But as far as birth control, every method has pros and cons. The pill is still very common. It's around 99% effective if you use it perfectly. So it's closer to like 90% in real life because people miss doses. But there's side effects from that. Some people feel great, some get mood changes, weight shifts, lower libido, and all of this gets brushed off by Doctors.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What about IUDs? Are those any better?

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, IUDs are over 99% effective and they last for years, which is great.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this is an intrauterine device. It's a device that goes inside your uterus.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah. They alter your hormone levels. There's hormonal and copper versions and they're great for many people, but the insertion is actually really painful. Doctors often downplay that. I actually have a friend who's. She's going through it right now. Her IUD went missing in her uterus. Just lost. We're like, yeah, we don't know what happened to it. Which I've heard is more common than we think. But there's not a lot of equivalent. Like, oops, we lost a medical device in your scrotum. But it's scary. She had to have an MRI and is currently waiting to have it surgically removed because it's like just floating around in her uterus.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I feel like us guys, we would have a task force for that.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. She's just sitting around, around freaking out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's just floating around in there.

[Jessica Wynn]

But there's also implants in the arm. There's shots every three months. Patches, rings. Condoms are still the only method that protects against STIs. Sexually transmitted infections. There's emergency contraception like Plan B. It has a huge target on its back politically, but it's a critical tool for preventing pregnancy after unprotected sex. And plan B has a pretty long shelf life, so. So it's not a bad idea to stock up right now because depending on what happens in your state, you may be able to help someone in a few years if that drug becomes unavailable. I also just read a report. Non sequitur. But I just read a report that says one of the most commonly doordashed items is Plan B.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Early morning delivery guys providing healthcare. Amazing. Yeah, like where do you get your healthcare? Doordash and Amazon. We could probably do a whole episode on birth control. But why so much fear mongering about this?

[Jessica Wynn]

That's a million dollar question. But because reproductive autonomy threatens systems of control. When women can control if and when they have kids, then they can control their education, their careers, their lives. And that makes some people very uncomfortable. It's wild that our vaginas are regulated by the government.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, let's not open that can of worms just now. But man, women are strong to deal with the fact that they are born with a vag in the first place.

[Jessica Wynn]

I know. And we keep getting stronger. That's why Kegels are so popular these days.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, everyone's Heard of those? Not to brag, but I used to hold the record on Kegel Camp, which is a Kegel app by my friend Emily Morris. She runs Sex with Emily podcast and stuff. I was on level 20. Nobody else even came close.

[Jessica Wynn]

That is amazing. I don't even know what that means. Level 20. But for anyone who isn't a record holder like you, Kegels are exercises for the pelvic floor muscles, and that supports your bladder, your uterus, your bowel. And done correctly, they can help with incontinence and they can improve sexual function. And they can help men too, like things like premature ejaculation and bladder control. I don't know what your problem is, Jordan.

[Jordan Harbinger]

None. I got a distance record.

[Jessica Wynn]

The problem is most people do them wrong. And they're not for everybody.

[Jordan Harbinger]

How do you do them wrong?

[Jessica Wynn]

So you can do them wrong by clenching your abs or your thighs or your butt instead of the pelvic floor. The vocabulary matters. You have to know what you're targeting, or if you bear down instead of lifting up, or you hold your breath. You can make things worse if your pelvic floor is already too tight. So some people need to relax their pelvic floor, not tighten it. So a good doctor can guide you to what exercises you should be doing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So not everything is solved just by doing Kegels. I actually don't even know how to relax your pelvic floor or stretch it or whatever.

[Jessica Wynn]

I mean, you would have to probably take some pregnancy courses, I think.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But squats. Gotta do some deep squats.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, it's back to the literacy again. You need to know what you're talking about.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What happens with age? Because vaginas don't just retire.

[Jessica Wynn]

Definitely not. As estrogen declines, especially after menopause, you can get vaginal atrophy. Thinner, drier tissue, less elasticity, more discomfort with sex, more infections. But the good news is there are vaginal moisturizers, lubricants, and low dose vaginal estrogen that acts locally. So hormone therapy has been unfairly demonized. And for lots of people under medical guidance, it can be really safe and life improving. So staying sexually active solo or with a partner can help maintain blood flow and elasticity. So sex in your 60s, it might be different than in your 20s, but it can still be really good.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And sex should always be really good. That's kind of the point.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yeah, always. For all the men listening, it's important for you to understand the complexities of the female anatomy to make your sex life better, too. So communication is Everything for healthy, fun, satisfying sex. I like to think of sex as, like, a competitive sport.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so, like, be louder than your neighbors. I don't know what you mean.

[Jessica Wynn]

Just understand the game, understand the positions and the equipment, and I don't know I'm gonna win. But once I knew about the orgasm gap, I feel like I got competitive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What's the orgasm gap?

[Jessica Wynn]

In heterosexual Encounters, men orgasm 95% of the time, women orgasm 65% of the time. And in lesbian encounters, women orgasm about 85% of the time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So the common denominator is what prioritize female pleasure.

[Jessica Wynn]

It's not women's bodies. It's knowledge and effort.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, sounds like a lot of work. But I guess we all deserve participation trophies and snacks. And you just. You hope you don't pull a muscle. Warm up, everybody.

[Jessica Wynn]

Right? And respect your teammates. Asking questions about vaginas isn't indecent. It's necessary. The more we understand about our bodies, the less power, shame and pseudoscience have over us. Okay, the feminine hygiene industry, the cosmetic surgery industry, a lot of these wellness brands, they profit from making women feel broken.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Vaginas are not broken. They're incredible. Anything that can produce pain, pleasure, and another human being should probably be celebrated and not be a taboo. So to the vaginas of the world, I salute you.

[Jessica Wynn]

Yes, me too. You are powerful. You are weird. You are wonderful. You're not a problem to be solved. So just let your vagina do its job. And stop buying detox pearls.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right? Yes. It's time to retire the pussy pop. All right, I'm gonna go buy my wife and her vagina some flowers and candy. Maybe not candy for the vagina. Thanks, Jess, for letting us get inside a woman.

[Jessica Wynn]

Of course.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And thank you for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of skeptical Sunday to me. Jordanordanharbinger.com advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm ordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram where you can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her substacks between the lines and where shadows linger. We'll link to those in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and I'm definitely not a gynecologist. As evidenced by this episode. Also, we try to get these as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it's fact checked, so consult a qualified professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What if the most powerful painkiller, memory booster and mood shifter wasn't in your medicine cabinet but in your playlist?

[Daniel J. Leviton]

Well, experiential fusion is a term coined by Richard Davidson at University of Wisconsin, Madison, who works closely with the Dalai Lama about altered states and meditation states and such. And the idea is that it's sometimes referred to as flow, although it's slightly different. A flow state.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You're in the zone.

[Daniel J. Leviton]

If you're a basketball player or if you're a coder, you just lose track of time. But the experiential fusion that you and I are talking about with music is that under the right circumstances, you forget that you're listening to music. You might even forget who you are. You become one with the experience. There is an evidence base now for music therapies and music interventions. We know that music can affect the immune system in several ways. Listening to pleasurable music can increase levels of immunoglobulin A, an important antibody that travels to the site of mucosal infections.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And help fights them off.

[Daniel J. Leviton]

We know that music that is pleasurable to you can increase the production of natural killer cells and T cells, also important for fighting disease and infection. Some music can lead to reductions in inflammation. Why music does this and why the immune system responds to it, we don't know. But it does.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For more on how music hacks your brain's chemistry to heal in ways that medicine can't, check out episode 1147 with neuroscientist Daniel J. Leviton. Quick break to recommend something that's useful if you want to stay in the loop on what's happening in the world without doom scrolling for an hour. Simple English News Daily is perfect. It's seven minutes a day, super easy to follow, gives you the most simple version of the biggest stories from different continents every day. Africa, Asia, Europe, the Americas. You name it. And the best part? No opinion, no analysis. Just the news. Clean, clear and done. Just search simple English News daily in your podcast app or go to send7dotorg.