1296: Saving Bro's Soul from Alt-Right Rabbit Hole | Feedback Friday

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1296: Saving Bro's Soul from Alt-Right Rabbit Hole | Feedback Friday
Date: March 13, 2026
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Co-host: Gabriel Mizrahi

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Episode Overview

In this Feedback Friday episode, Jordan Harbinger and Gabriel Mizrahi answer listener questions about challenging life dilemmas, personal growth, and tricky relationships. The headline theme explores how to support a younger brother who is being pulled toward alt-right and extremist media, unpacking the psychology behind radicalization and what can be done to guide loved ones back to a healthier, more critical worldview. Additional listener questions touch on difficult family caretaking, struggles with attention and focus, and workplace relationship setbacks. As always, Jordan and Gabriel balance practical advice, empathy, and humorous banter to decode complex issues and give actionable takeaways.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Saving a Younger Brother from the Alt-Right Rabbit Hole

[04:32–31:16]

Context & Listener Dilemma

• A listener writes in concerned about her 17-year-old brother, who, after starting with mainstream political content, has become increasingly engaged with alt-right/extremist commentators (including almost falling into the Andrew Tate sphere).
• The brother claims he’s seeking “all opinions,” but is lacking context, discernment, and critical thinking; he’s now beginning to voice anti-Semitic talking points.
• Main concerns: How to guide him without shame, avoid pushing him away, and how to generally keep young men from radicalization.

Core Issues & Analysis

• Allure of Extremist Content:
  Jordan Harbinger [11:14]:
  “A lot of adolescent men, even smart ones, are asking: Who am I? Where do I fit? Why do I feel angry, powerless? And these figures—these grifters—they give a clear villain, a flattering narrative: ‘You’re not wrong, you’re just awake, bro.’ They give you a sense of power, belonging, and a roadmap for getting rich or feeling superior.”
• Disingenuous ‘All Views’ Argument:
  Jordan [06:24]:
  “‘I just want to listen to all opinions and pick the good from the bad’—it’s almost never really true. If you were, you’d be reading Marx and Mao and Chomsky, not just alt-right YouTubers. It’s a pretext for indulging fringe ideas.”
• Critical Thinking vs. Policing Thought:
  “Despite my concerns about alt-right content, I don’t believe in policing what people consume… Part of growing up is engaging with different sources and trying different ideas. But for that to be healthy, it needs to be balanced by critical thinking, solid values, and close relationships.” [13:35]
• Role of Relationships:
  Gabriel [21:33]:
  “One common thread among young men who get radicalized—they’re often alienated, lonely, lacking support from friends or meaning in their lives.” Jordan [22:49]:
  “It’s way harder to buy into Andrew Tate’s world if you have close female relationships…if your sister or friend is a woman, you’ll question the most extreme takes.”
• Teasing Out the ‘Forbidden’ Appeal:
  Gabriel [15:01]:
  “You could even ask directly what speaks to him about this stuff—is it the substance, or is it because these guys are uncensored, ‘forbidden’ voices?” Jordan [16:00]:
  “Part of the appeal here is attitude, a response to over-policing of thought and language…but the substance is often asinine. Help him tease out: is it the ideas, or just the tone?”
• Practical Approaches to Counter Radicalization:
  • Encourage rigorous questioning (e.g., “What’s the counterargument? Does this logic hold up?”)
  • Foster exposure to new experiences and diverse people (travel, volunteering)
  • Support healthy goal-setting and independence (school, jobs)
  • Address underlying emotional drivers: feelings of anger, alienation, confusion, shame

Notable Quotes

• Jordan [17:26]:
  “Validate the effort, but remind him…it’s easy to fall into another echo chamber. True critical thinking means interrogating those extreme takes, understanding context, and spotting when someone’s misleading or manipulating you.”
• Jordan [29:12]:
  “Chasing goals and having something you’re going after makes it hard to hold damaging beliefs—one success begets another. Most of the problems these guys try to solve with YouTube, podcasts, or Reddit…they melt away when you’re grounded in the real world.”

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2. Caretaking for a Vulnerable Ex-Mother-in-Law

[33:16–43:49]

Listener Scenario

• A listener’s elderly ex-mother-in-law is in a precarious living situation (living with her ex-husband, who is abusing and stealing from her). The listener’s ex-husband and brother-in-law refuse to help.
• The listener is asking about legal recourse, how to get the sons involved, and what can be done for a resistant but vulnerable elder.

Key Advice

• Legal Limits:
  “There’s almost no way to force adult children to take care of a parent; the law is only enforced if the state wants reimbursement for care.”
• Elder Abuse Resources:
  Encourage contacting Adult Protective Services if there’s evidence of abuse or exploitation.
• Respecting Autonomy:
  Gabriel [40:45]:
  “You can care about her safety more than she does, but that’s not going to guarantee she changes. Sometimes you have to honor the autonomy of the person—even if it’s infuriating and painful.”
• Practical Support:
  Offer help in identifying low-income housing and resources, but be patient—change comes slowly, especially with fear and trauma at play.

Memorable Moment & Tone

• Jordan [43:19]:
  “As close as you and your ex-mother-in-law are, she might need one of her own sons to make her feel comfortable getting out. If you can make that happen, worth the effort. If you can’t, you haven’t failed.”

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3. Trouble Focusing: Is It ADHD or Modern Life?

[47:06–62:21]

Listener Issue

• A 16-year-old listener struggles with zoning out in lessons, conversations, and even when listening to the podcast—wonders if it’s ADHD and how to improve focus.

Host Insights

• Jordan [48:42]:
  “My mind just wanders…diagnosed with ADHD in college. Rarely a problem when something’s deeply interesting, but otherwise, my attention wanders.”
• Self-Study:
  “Get curious: Do you zone out to nowhere (dissociation)? Or does your brain go somewhere more interesting?”
• Tech’s Impact:
  Gabriel [52:14]:
  “Researchers now call it ‘attentional injury’—our brains are hurt by social media, endless scrolling, constant inputs.”
• Balancing Acceptance & Training:
  Practice “attention training”—try to focus for longer stretches, take notes, use tech like Notebook LLM that can summarize material in a more engaging way.
• Labels (ADD/ADHD):
  Get assessed if the label will help unlock support/resources; don’t use labels to give up but rather to inform strategy.

Notable Quotes

• Jordan [54:02]:
  “It can be hard to know: do I have something clinical, or am I just a person with a smartphone?”
• Gabriel [58:04]:
  “AI tools like Notebook LLM might make it easier to process lots of information, but we do have to be careful they don’t replace the need to learn how to actually focus—at least when it matters.”

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4. Manager Relationship on the Rocks After Office Drama

[68:15–81:16]

Listener’s Challenge

• Long-term good relationship with manager (“almost a mentor”) damaged after a work conflict with a team lead escalates. Manager takes complaints at face value and doesn’t offer support; listener feels “like a horrible person.”

Hosts’ Analysis

• Jordan [70:48]:
  “This seems less about the specific office situation and more about the disappointment of not being protected by someone you rely on for guidance and support.”
• Idealization & Parent-Child Dynamics:
  Gabriel [75:46]:
  “Major mom vibes…when a manager plays a parental role in our minds, disappointment in them can feel like something deeper, almost like abandonment. Dealing with this means accepting work figures are flawed human beings, not perfect protectors.”
• Repairing Relationships:
  “Focus on patching things with the team lead through practical steps and transparency. As for the manager, use this as an internal process to reframe your expectations rather than confronting her over disappointment.”

Memorable Quotes

• Gabriel [79:57]:
  “There’s an either/or thing here: either my manager and I are perfect, or I have to throw it away. Part of becoming an adult is learning to love people—including work mentors—in their complexity.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jordan [06:24]: “You don’t really want all opinions. It’s usually mainlining extremist viewpoints, claiming it’s about ‘hearing all sides’—it’s total nonsense.”
• Jordan [15:12]: "Whenever people are led by emotion, not logic, they say: ‘You just have to watch the videos.’ It’s about a feeling, not about facts."
• Gabriel [25:31]: “It’s easier to think women are dumb or shouldn’t leave the house if you’re embarrassed you’ve never been able to attract one.”
• Jordan [40:56]: “It might not be appropriate to care about your ex-mother-in-law’s safety more than she does, but that won’t guarantee she changes.”
• Gabriel [75:46]: “I do wonder if this manager is a kind of surrogate mother. She looks up to her, needs her, values her support. So when the manager wasn’t there for her, it didn’t just register as disappointment, but as something more profound, like abandonment.”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro, Alzheimer’s update, show purpose – [01:25–04:32]
• Saving Bro's Soul from Alt-Right Rabbit Hole – [04:32–31:16]
• Ex-Mother-in-Law in Danger – [33:16–43:49]
• Teen Zoning Out, ADHD, and Focus – [47:06–62:21]
• Manager/Workplace Conflict & Mentorship Grief – [68:15–81:16]

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Episode Tone & Style

• Conversational, direct, and honest—no sugarcoating tough realities, lots of humor, and self-deprecating asides.
• Critical yet compassionate—both regarding problematic online content and life’s personal challenges.
• Balanced—Jordan and Gabriel stress personal responsibility, open-mindedness, and empathy while calling out nonsense or unhelpful attitudes.
• Pragmatic and actionable—listeners get specific strategies and pointed questions to ask.

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Conclusion

This Feedback Friday episode is a masterclass in navigating complicated family, personal development, and workplace issues with insight and emotional intelligence. Jordan and Gabriel go well beyond surface-level advice, delving into the deeper psychological drivers of radicalization, the root causes of conflict and grief in professional relationships, and the modern challenges of focus and attention. Listeners leave with validation, practical tools, and a sense of solidarity—plus a healthy dose of wit and humor.

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Skeptical Sunday episode on anti-Semitism
• Notebook LLM (AI tool for summarizing/wrangling info)
• Six-Minute Networking (Jordan’s networking mini-course)
• Book Recommendations:
  • Nir Eyal’s work on belief
  • Recent audiobooks on Audible

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For anyone looking for actionable insights with depth, humor, and rigor, this episode is a standout example of The Jordan Harbinger Show’s unique value.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save some money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could be hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Not available in all states. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer the Needle, helping me drop into the right groove on this Absolutely Fire album of life drama Gabriel Mizrahi on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Undercover agents, economic hitmen, gold smugglers, astronauts. This week we had Nir Eyal on the science of belief and why it's more important than motivation. Really interesting scientific look at belief and even prayer, which I know y' all know is not normally my thing. But it's cool to hear the science behind all of this from a guy who's done a lot of research in this and similar areas. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, ponder the eternal questions while also knocking each other down a peg or three. And before we dive in today, I just wanted to thank everybody who emailed me and DMed me and posted in our subreddit about my mom after I talked about her Alzheimer's diagnosis. I'm always just blown away by this. You know, I figured I'd get a few responses, maybe an email here and there, but I was really overwhelmed by all of the love and the well wishes that I received from you guys. A bunch of you shared your own stories of caring with parents with dementia. Some of you shared books and websites and resources, all of which were super helpful. Some of you just said some really nice things. I just really appreciate that. It meant the world to me. Thank you so much. Yet another moment that made me go, man, I love this show. Family. I appreciate you guys making some room for me to talk about something very personal and very new. And just for reaching out in that amazing Feedback Friday spirit last week. Because when it rains, it pours. My mom fell and hit her head and had to go to the er and she's fine. She just had to get some staples. But it was, you know, scary. Old people. My friend made a joke. My actually, one of my previous producers, Jason DeFilibo, he made a funny joke which I assume comes from a comedian. Not because JPD is not funny, but because he watches a lot of comedy. Anyway, he said you can tell you're old by the way people react when you fall. If they laugh, you're young. If they don't laugh and they're horrified, you're old. But that's what happened with my mom. My poor mom. She slipped in the garage, fell off a step, actually. And she's, you know, had to call the fire department, had to go to the er, had to get staples, had to get stitches. It looked, since it's a head thing, Gabriel, man, it looks way worse than it is, right? It's like you're bleeding a little. It's a little swollen, but holy crap, it looks like you, you know, you've got like a zombie makeup thing going on the back of your head. It just looks terrible. Looks like somebody took a bite out of your scalp. And now she's got some kind of bug and she's sleeping a lot. I mean, just when it rains pours. She's having a rough time. But I'm feeling that thing that we talk about all the time, which is knowing you're not alone in something. It doesn't change the facts. Right? My mom is still going through all this. We're still figuring out how to best take care of her. But it does somehow make it easier to get through. And it makes me feel more supported and connected to all of you. So thank you so much for that. Speaking of slipping and falling, the deck on the Dews cruise is nice and slippery today. Gabriel, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Over the last few years, I've grown more concerned about my younger brother and the media that he's consuming. My dad and I have always enjoyed politics, philosophy and debate in general. So I think this started with my brother wanting to participate. He's going to turn 18 in a few weeks, but he's in 11th grade,

[Jordan Harbinger]

so that makes him like two years behind. That doesn't sound right. I was the oldest kid in my life. High school, I think. Or close to it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I guess that makes him one. One year or two. Maybe two years.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think it's two years. Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He started out by reading and listening to the same people my dad and I listen to. Since then, he's branched out into alt right and extremist commentators. There seems to be an attraction to them because they're forbidden, which I know is a pretty common thing for a teen, young adult boy to do. He's especially drawn to these masculinity type commentators. He nearly got swept up into the Andrew Tate world a few years back.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh boy. Not good.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He and I have always had a good relationship where we could talk openly. But I moved to the other side of the country a year and a half ago and our relationship has weakened a little. My dad reached out to me saying that he was concerned and asked me to put in a little more effort into calling my brother. I have, but my conversation with him yesterday worried me even more. He started spouting off some anti Semitic talking points, which, thanks to your Skeptical Sunday on the topic recently, I had exact data points to counter he was receptive. I work very hard not to shame or belittle him when he repeats ludicrous ideas, but it can be hard. I don't want to push him away or make him feel dumb.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For sure, that's great. Not an Easy thing to do when somebody's spouting off about Jewish space, lasers and the banking system. It sounds like you're handling this pretty well. This is the right approach.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He told me that he just listens to these people because he wants to listen to all opinions and pick through the good and the bad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hear this argument all the time. Time. There's so much wrong with it, I don't even know where to begin. I mean, first of all, it's disingenuous. The thing about this argument is it's never really true. Oh, I just want to listen to all opinions and pick through the good and the bad. Oh, okay, so clearly you're also reading Marx and Mao and you're tuning into Noam Chomsky's lectures. Come on, man, you're not really taking in all opinions.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, you're probably not curling up with Thomas Piketty as well, are you? Or is this just a pretext for indulging in far right ideas?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sure. And look, we're picking on the right, but it goes for the left too. And I'll talk about that, I guess, in a second here, but exactly. Okay, Another thing is they're never really going to the source, are they? They're not reading Mein Kampf or Das Kapital, Right? They're watching some YouTube crap and imbibing these reckless ideas. Second, or maybe even thirdhand from a two bit influencer who's chowing on eggo waffles in his mom's basement somewhere. It really worries me. And dude, I hear this all the time. Someone will crap on a guest we have on the show and they'll say like, oh, well, you know this guy, he sucks. He's just a grifter. What a bunch of crap. You know, you shouldn't platform idiots like this, this show totally fell off. And I'm like, okay, didn't you just post in another comment on this exact same thread that you take in all opinions and you listen to so and so because you want to hear all opinions. And it's like you don't really want to hear all opinions. You want to hear Qatar sponsored propaganda, or you want to hear right wing Christian nationalist propaganda, or you want to hear left wing communist nonsense that is being spouted by somebody. You don't actually want all opinions. If you did, you would not be shitting on the guest that I had on the show. You'd be going, oh, good. Another opinion from which I can separate the good and the bad. But instead you're angry about it. Why because it's popping this weird bubble that you've built for yourself. It's screwing with your echo chamber that you've built for yourself. So this whole I want all opinions is complete crap. The people who get all opinions are generally really good journalists. They'll do something like this, and it takes a ton of time. People who say they're doing it, they're mainlining extremist viewpoints and they're saying, oh, I just want to hear what these people have to say. And it's total nonsense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So she goes on. I agree with that sentiment, meaning listening to all opinions and picking through the good and the bad. But my concern is that he has little discernment or context. Yeah, the main point I made to him yesterday was that if 98% of what these people say is bad, what's the point of trying to find the 2%? But I know that will go away soon. He really is the sweetest kid. And he's so incredibly smart.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He's definitely the smartest 18 year old in 11th grade. Look, sorry I'm being mean here, but come on, man.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes, it's catchy and the crowds love it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I am being a dick. What am I talking about? But here's the thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Obama doesn't help.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, I'm just gonna shut up now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It was right there. I understand why you had to go for how can I help guide my brother? And how can we stop our young men from being radicalized, Signed. Keeping my brother from going off the deep end without forcing him into a knee bend?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I just want to be clear. I'm messing with. For all we know, this kid is 18 in 11th grade because he was appropriately held back in kindergarten, like, you know, half a generation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, they wanted him to be the biggest kid in little league or whatever. Sure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I mean, I'm just. I'm sort of just messing around with that. Another thing I want to address is people are going to be like, these are just left wings, libtards. That's because he's. We're addressing an alt right propaganda nonsense grifter pipeline question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's the same thing on the other side, Dude.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's the exact same thing on the other side. In fact, we did a show. This is years ago. I think this is during the pandemic where we had Collins on some new app that was coming out called Stereo. I don't think it exists anymore. Anyway, one of the people that sort of came in, they were criticizing me for criticizing Iran and North Korea. And they were like, isn't that ethnocentric? Shouldn't we take all cultures and regimes and governments and ways of believing? Shouldn't we put them on equal footing? And I was like, absolutely not. That's a totally ridiculous left wing argument that everybody in every regime and every way of thinking and every mindset is equal. It's total nonsense. No, I just want to be clear that this is. I'm not coming at this from like a. Everything on the right side of the political spectrum is bad. And that's why you should be really concerned about your brother. That's not what I'm trying to say here at all. Anyway, good question from this writer and obviously a very timely one. So, first of all, I'm sorry your brother has gone down this particular rabbit hole and that you're struggling to bring him back. I know how concerning and unsettling it is. If this were my little brother, I'd be worried, too. That said, I do understand the appeal that these people hold, especially for young men. We do ourselves a disservice if we ignore this. We have to understand their appeal if we're going to successfully bring them back. A lot of adolescent men, even the relatively smart ones, they're asking intense questions. Who am I? Where do I fit into this system? Why does the world feel. And you got to fill in the blank here. Unfair, oppositional, chaotic. Why do I feel angry sometimes? Why do I feel powerless? And then these figures, they offer some compelling answers to these questions. They give people a clear villain. They give people a sense of belonging, a flattering narrative. Like, you're not confused, man. You're not wrong. You're just awake, bro. And they give young men a roadmap, or what seems like a roadmap for getting rich or making money, acquiring power, feeling superior to others. It's so funny, Gabriel. I saw this video the other day from, I think, Coffeezilla, who's been on this show a couple times. It was about Tai Lopez. Do you remember Tai Lopez? Here in my garage, I got this landing. Yeah. He's a grifter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The grifter, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Yeah. And just a total tool. And he's got a new thing out that's like, you guys gotta be aware that people are out there trying to control you. And it was just. It was this nonsense about, you know, they are trying to control you. And if you buy my course, I'll show you how to get rich, and then you won't be controlled by them. It was just typical dumb crap. And I was like, what idiots are falling for this. And the answer is not idiots, but people who are, well one idiots, yes, but also young men who are just don't have enough life experience to realize that like no, they are not trying to control you. And even if they were, buying a PDF from this moron is not going to get you out of that tractor beam of control. Okay? They the people who've orchestrated the whole world order, they're not going to be defeated by a website based course that you can get on whatever you know. Tai lopez.net okay, that's not the kryptonite here that's going to get you ahead anyway, people love to figure out how to get rich, acquire power, feel superior to others, like I said. And that's an intoxicating blend for a lot of men. And it's especially intoxicating at 17. So obviously it's concerning. But despite everything I said a moment ago, I also don't believe in policing what people consume. I know that sounds very strange. I share your concerns around alt right content. I think the misogynistic and anti semitic stuff is especially harmful. It's gross, it's despicable, it's straight up, just factually wrong almost all of the time. But I also don't think it's wise or really even effective to tell people that they can't consume certain things or they can't entertain certain ideas, or that they should say well, all masculine influencers are garbage. Stay away from them. I think part of growing up is engaging with different sources and different ideas, trying them on within reason. It might even be necessary to some degree. So in that respect I understand when someone says I want to get differing opinions, I just think that that's usually a disingenuous argument. But for that process to be responsible for that, to not end up leading a young man to a weird ral or a creepy subreddit or 4chan or whatever, or for anybody really. It's got to be balanced by a few things. Critical thinking is the obvious one. Solid values, also crucial and close relationships. You said your brother's smart, so my hope is he's a decent critical thinker.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Although smarts and critical thinking not always the same thing, are they?

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, they are not. And that's a good point. One way to encourage that quality in him would be to say when he shares some of this stuff with you, say stuff like interesting. Okay, so what do you think? Or that's an interesting argument. What's the counter argument there? Does that hold any water? Or if you want to be Even more heavy handed. You're super smart. I'm sure you're asking yourself what your own opinion about women are. Jews or immigration, you know, whatever the topic is. Where does this person fit into that? What can you see that this person that you're watching the video of, what can you see that they can't?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also wonder if you could go with the forbidden thing more directly. Like, I'm curious to know what speaks to you about this stuff. Is it because these guys are saying things that you're not, you know, supposed to, or is there some real substance here?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's a good one. You know, Gabe, one thing I've found is whenever people are being led by emotion instead of logic, what they do is they go, you just have to watch the videos. They can't actually explain why an argument is compelling. They go, you need to watch it, just watch it. And then you go, okay, send me this video. And then they send you a video where the guy, it's like dramatic music and the guy's yelling about something and you go, ah, I see this person created a feeling in you and that feeling made you feel powerful or like you were in on some knowledge. But really what he said was nothing or a bunch of nonsense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dude, so many of this content is just riling people up and kind of getting at like something vague and moody instead of saying, here is a rigorous argument laid out with facts, data, building some worldview that actually is coherent. Most of it is not really that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah, look, part of the appeal of these influencers is. And look, some people are genuinely vibing with misogynistic misogyny and anti Semitism obviously. But a lot of guys, they just kind of enjoy listening to people who are uncensored. There's something thrilling about it. And they're like, yeah, look at this guy, he's so tough, he doesn't give a crap. Look, he can't get sponsors, but he doesn't care. It's because people are trying to silence him. That's so brave. There's something liberating about listening to people like that, but the substance is totally asinine. It's gross and offensive, but the attitude is kind of appealing. And I have to admit that, honestly, I get it. I think it's reckless and dumb and I think it's kind of immature and puerile almost all the time. But it's also partly at least a reaction to this over policing of thought and language that's taken place over the last 10 to 15 years. And once again, that does not forgive the ideas in any way. But again, I think it's just important to understand the psychology. So, yeah, that's a helpful and useful thing to help your brother tease out. Are you responding to the ideas or are you just kind of responding to the tone?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You could also say, you know, I respect that you want to expose yourself to these different ideas. You want to evaluate them for yourself. I just want to remind you, though, true critical thinking, it's not just about listening to these extreme takes. It's about interrogating them and understanding the full context so you can spot when somebody is getting it wrong or misleading you or manipulating you, which I'm sure you don't want, and come to an even better opinion. So are you doing that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I like that. Validate the effort, but also remind him that it's easy to just fall into one more echo chamber. So those are a few ways to encourage independent thinking without saying, you know, your podcast playlist is trash and you need to go watch the Gloria Allred documentary or whatever on the values front if he comes to you. Like, women just want men with money, so I'm going to hustle and not let any of these hoes get too close. Now I'm saying maybe you say, wow, that's a strong stance. How important is making a ton of money to you? Do you want to work hard to attract people? Or do you want to work hard because you want to work hard and actually achieve something? Or if he says something like, jews control the banking system. They're the reason we're involved in all these wars, whatever sort of Mickey Mouse version of anti Semitism appeals to teenagers, you can say, well, I get why you're questioning why we get involved in stuff as a country, but is that theory helping you get to the bottom of it? Does it make you understand geopolitics more? Jewish people more, or is it less because it's a smokescreen? Walk me through the logic here. Why is this the explanation? Or is it just all vagaries?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So the relevant values there are what, curiosity, intellectual rigor, empathy for other people?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, and these are just a couple examples. I mean, when we did the Skeptical Sunday on Anti Semitism, a lot of these people will say, they'll find out I'm Jewish. And they'll go like, ah, this is why you guys were expelled from 190 countries? And I'm like, okay, like, this is

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

why you guys were expelled. You guys can't stop doing podcasts.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, fine. That I can see kicking. You kick a group Out. Kick a group out of the country. Podcasters. Start with the podcasters.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So annoying.

[Jordan Harbinger]

First they came for the podcasters and I did nothing. The facts of these things, the air quotes, facts of these, usually don't even stand up. You're like, oh my God, they got kicked out of what is 109 countries. And then you look it up and it's just like, not even close to true. It's just a random number that people have made up. And. And then you're like, where's the list? And you go on like a Nazi sub board to try to find the list. And they count London as a country. And you're like, okay, so not only can you guys not count, but you're also terrible at geography. Color me surprised.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe the most important value we're talking about is actually wanting to understand an issue and all of its complexity instead of, you know, wanting to be right or repeat somebody else's talking points.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, because just wanting to be right, that speaks to other values. Wanting to be superior. Get one up on other people. Sort of a common conspiracy. Yeah, feel safe. Very common. Conspiracy theory thinking there's a huge overlap between people who have extreme left or extreme right ideology and conspiracy theory believers. I mean, some of this alt right stuff is actually just conspiracy theory, plain and simple. Andrew Tate, he runs a scam coaching empire. A lot of the anti semitic stuff is based on just laughably disprovable conspiracy theories that go back hundreds or even thousands of years. But some of this stuff is just like, well, there's this way of looking at the world, and it's not total bs, but it's deeply misguided. And then some of it is maybe accurate up to a point, but it's not necessarily a healthy or nuanced way of approaching life. But the process of depreciation, programming somebody who believes in it, it's all very similar.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, I think what you're getting at is that any belief, even if it is true or legitimate to some degree, if it's militant enough, if it's unthinking enough, then it always becomes toxic.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So in a way, it doesn't matter so much what you believe, but you know how you believe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And that's where the whole strong beliefs, loosely held idea comes into play. We talk about this in a recent wee bit wiser. One of my favorites, by the way, it's our newsletter, jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find a little gem. Most Wednesdays, that's the plug for the day. Some solid ideas in there. And it's a great companion to the show. I'm not lying about that. But yeah, okay, absolutely. That's a key value, too. And that's often the value that keeps people from getting fully sucked into this alt right stuff. Because so much of the alt right thing is we're right, everyone else is wrong, and they want to take your power and your dignity. So you better believe in this stuff or you should be scared. And I say alt right, but you could even just say extreme left and say the exact same thing, maybe with a couple shades different, and you're good. It's just not unique to the alt right. And I know tons of. Can you even say alt leftist? Is that a thing? They're just as militant, they're just as entrenched in their ideas. I think this is really more about the human mind than it is about any quote unquote philosophy, if you can call it that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You mentioned close relationships as another way to keep them grounded. Do you want to say more about that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. My thinking there is one common thread among young men who get radicalized is they are often alienated. Right. They just don't have close friends.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They're lonely. Yeah. And they tend to not have a lot of meaning from other sources in their lives.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And shocker of shockers, they don't do well with women. They feel undesirable and misunderstood, and that's what makes them go, oh, this explains why it's not me having done nothing to make myself attractive or interesting in any way. It's because women are only after guys with money or whatever.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And also these people get me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Now, she hasn't said anything that makes me think her brother is definitely in that camp. I think she would have told us if he was locked in his room and, you know, given off school shooter vibes. But regardless of how isolated he is, his relationships, especially with her, they are crucial.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, she did say that they've always had a good relationship, but their relationship has weakened a little bit after she moved away. So that could be playing a role in all of this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Which is why I'm glad she's putting in some work to stay close.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But to be fair, is it her job to keep her brother from being radicalized?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know. No, no, it's not. It's not. But she can help. I mean, it's these relationships that are going to keep him tethered to reality, that are going to keep him exposed to other ideas and ways of thinking.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would say, especially because she's a woman.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. It's way harder to buy into Andrew Tate's view of the world if you have close female relationships. Not impossible. Do you remember that guy Roosh v. Gabriel?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No. Who is this?

[Jordan Harbinger]

He had a blog. It was, like, this super misogynist pickup artist kind of guy, and he was like this kind of gross dude who traveled around to different countries, and he would write books about the different countries and how to, like, bang the girls in that country or whatever. And he got really well known pre Andrew Tate for being just really misogynist. And then investigative journalists found out that he lived in his mother's basement with his sister.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And he was like, leave them alone. They haven't done anything. These are good women. And it's like, you literally wrote countless words about how all women are predatory and terrible. And he's like, not my sister and my mom. So he had this crazy Madonna whore complex with women where his sister and mother were angels and saints, and every other woman on the planet was just a receptacle for him. And it was just like, not only are you mentally ill, but holy crap, you couldn't write this as fiction, right? It would be too unbelievable that this dude lives in his mother's basement and that was the end of him. I mean, nobody's heard a peep from that guy since we found out he lived in his mother's basement in a house with his mom and his sister. I mean, it was just so, hey, mom, the meatloaf. We want it now. The meatloaf. It was just the epitome of this. Right? Ok. And so it's harder, but not impossible to buy into Andrew Tate's or whatever, Roos's view of the world if you have close female relationships. Because then when he pops off about, you know, women belong in the home or women can't drive, or women are a man's property, which is so sort of comically misogynistic that it's hard to even wrap your head around. But there are people who actually believe this crap. Ok? When he says that if you got an awesome sister you talk to once a week, if one of your best friends is a woman, you're gonna go, okay, do I really believe Tiffany shouldn't be allowed to leave the house? Is Tiffany really my property or her future husband's property? Obviously not. Why am I listening to this guy?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And what else is he wrong about as a result?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So exactly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The other thing you can do with your brother is listen not just to his opinions, but to his feelings. Because Again, what drives the intensity of our beliefs, the content of the beliefs aside, is the function that they serve for us. And one big function that beliefs serve, I think, is to help us make sense of the world and to cope with our feelings about it. Jordan touched on a few of the main Anger, anxiety, fear. I think you're a lot more likely to believe that, I don't know, Jews are responsible for all the problems in the world. If you're angry with your leaders or you can't get a job, for example,

[Jordan Harbinger]

or it's way easier to think women are dumb and shouldn't be allowed to leave the house or have jobs if you're embarrassed because you haven't ever been able to attract one, or you're afraid

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

that your job is going to disappear over the next decade. So you're freaking out, but you're not talking about that or doing anything about it. Exactly. But there are other feelings that drive radical beliefs. Confusion is a really big one, although I guess confusion collapses back into anxiety because confusion about the world produces uncertainty, and uncertainty makes us anxious. And then we'll come up with all sorts of theories to deal with that feeling. But I think the other big one, we talk about this all the time, is shame. Shame about our abilities, our power, our limitations. You mentioned dating. I think that's a good example. So when you talk to your brother, yes, engage with the ideas, that's important. But also try to listen for his affect, what feelings he seems to be dealing with, what feelings he's bringing up in you. You know, maybe you say, I think I can understand why you would want to pin the blame on somebody, but I'm listening to you and I'm noticing you sound a little angry. Are you angry? And maybe you guide him to talk about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I like that. She doesn't even need to say, hey, you only believe this crap because you're angry and impressionable. I mean, she's certainly allowed to. Maybe sometimes that's appropriate. But if she helps him work through some of these feelings, the ideas might loosen their grip on him on their own. I gotta say, Gabe, I know tons of people that have followed similar things like this, and the vast majority were really unhappy, deeply unhappy with one or two areas of their life. Whether it was their dating life, it might have been their work life, it might have been both. But once that problem got solved, it was like a light switch. I had a really close friend of mine who was really into a lot of the misogynist stuff, and we talked a lot about dating because he Knew, you know, I used to be a dating coach and stuff like that, and we talked a lot about, like, relationship dynamics, and we just fundamentally disagreed on a lot. He didn't really have a lot of good points. It was mostly just. But this guy says, and it's like, well, that's a convenient explanation for why you're still single, but that's not the reason. And then he got a girlfriend in a serious relationship, and they're happy. And I'm like, hey, man, haven't heard you talk about this guy in a long time. And he's like, oh, yeah, you know, I mean, it's just like he didn't even have an explanation for why. And I was like, yeah, because you don't have to stay up late at night being angry that you're single.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Amazing how that works.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Suddenly none of what he's saying is interesting or makes any sense anymore. Surprise, surprise.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Another thing you might want to try is maybe encourage your brother to have as many new experiences with as many different people as maybe you encourage him to, I don't know, go backpacking on his school breaks. I think travel is generally one of the best antidotes to rigid thinking, the best way to break out of your bubble. Maybe you encourage him to volunteer in different communities, countries, neighborhoods. I think you're a lot less likely to hate Jews or black people or women or whomever it is if you're working with them or hanging out with them, getting to know them. So part of this is just life experience.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I like that idea a lot. Look, at 17, you probably only know your own family, your community, and your high school. Unless you traveled a ton as a kid, you just don't have that much data to work with. Your understanding of the world is pretty much mediated by the media, right? Cable news, which no kids watch, Podcasts, which are full of crap, present company included, Reddit, whatever it is. But that's a story. It's curated. It's at a distance. There's no substitute for actually walking through another country and talking to people from different walks of life and realizing, oh, there are people with a very different experience of life from me. They think differently. They have very different problems, they have very different beliefs. I have a lot to learn. Maybe before I form an opinion about how they're pulling the strings secretly or undermining masculinity or shouldn't be allowed to leave the house or whatever. I mean, you just need to make sure that you are not sheltering under a rock or, like I said before, dripping syrup on your lap from Eggo waffles in your mom's basement before you actually form a concrete adult opinion. And it's just, it's tough for a kid to do that. You know, you don't have a lot of resources.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, dude, maybe you even do some of that stuff with him. Take a trip together, volunteer together. That would be great for your relationship and for his worldview.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I would also keep encouraging his goals, doing well in school, getting a job, getting his own place when the time comes. Because having big goals and chasing them, that's going to require him to be in real relationship with people and institutions. It's going to require him to collaborate well with people. It's also going to make it hard to hold damaging beliefs about them. Also, not to mention chasing goals and having something you're really going after. It shows potential. It's attractive to the opposite sex. One success begets another. A lot of the problems that he's looking to solve through this nonsense on YouTube or whatever he's consuming, it's going to melt away. And that's basically the playbook for combating radicalization, getting to the real drivers. Alienation, isolation, disaffection, lack of purpose, powerlessness, or perceived powerlessness. Every one of those has an antidote. Community, relationship, goal setting, competence building, curiosity, models of masculinity that integrate strength and empathy. So I would imagine what those would look like in his life and just work backwards from there. Here's the good news. You're still the cool, smart, older sister. Your brother's a smart, sweet kid, according to you. So it's likely he's just going to grow out of this phase, right? At least I hope so. But your relationship will probably be a big part of that process. So stay close to him, engage him, listen to him, encourage him, and I'm sure that your dialogue will lead to the right conclusions. He's lucky to have you looking out for him. Good luck. Speaking of capital, we want you to spend some of yours on the fine products and services that support this show. Which, by the way, they don't want you to know about. And by they, I obviously mean Jews and women. We'll be all right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Momentous. When people talk about energy recovery and performance, they usually go straight to training and more protein. But one of the most overlooked pieces is gut health. If your gut isn't dialed, everything else is fighting uphill. I used to think fiber was just about staying regular, but it's way more foundational than that momentous Fiber plus addresses one of the most overlooked foundations of long term performance, gut health. Fiber is not just about digestion. It's a key driver of gut health which directly impacts nutrient absorption, energy stability, recovery, focus, mood, overall performance. I've been taking Momentous Fiber plus and what makes it different is that a complete three in one formula, soluble fiber, insoluble fiber and a prebiotic resistant starch. That combo supports the whole gut process, feeding beneficial bacteria, improving digestion, helping stabilize blood sugar so you get steadier energy without spikes and crashes. And it's classic momentous science. First clean and minimal ingredients, no artificial additives independently certified.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

to and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast. They're searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday all right what's next?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My former mother in law is an elderly lady with limited resources who shares a house in Washington state with her ex husband who has stolen from her and destroyed her belongings. My ex husband and his brother. Her sons don't or won't help her. She's made me the executor of her estate. We've advised her to go to the police, but she refuses to press charges against her ex husband. We've advised her to move, but she says she doesn't have the money to afford her own apartment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow, this poor woman.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

What an interesting situation. The person taking care of her is her son's ex wife, not her son or either of her sons.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's definitely unusual. But man, if it's true that the main men in her life won't protect her or are straight up hurting her, then thank God for our friend here. Assuming she's not just in it for the executor fees. It's quite a responsibility.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Though I'm currently remarried and live in another state, my children are the only grandchildren she has. We have a good relationship and my new husband is very understanding about my relationship with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm confused. So on one hand she's saying her husband is understanding, but at the same time, in the next breath she's like. The husband is like, why do you care so much? It's your ex's mom.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that is a little confusing. But she's going, yeah, it's my ex's mom and it's my kid's grandmother and I care about her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, then why is it so crazy that she cares about her? Yeah, of course she would. This isn't. I don't get it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I've also talked to my ex husband about what he should do for his mom. He states that he doesn't have a place for her to live. He also lives in another state. He won't help his mom because he's not the executor of her estate.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Okay, if that's true, this guy is really a pos. Okay, so he resents that his ex wife is helping his mom, but then he'd also help only if he stood to benefit financially. What?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also no guarantee that he would. If he's this kind of person, wouldn't he try to maybe enjoy the money and still not help her? Unclear to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point. Point. I am just marveling at this guy's mindset. What an absolute jerk. What an a hole. His own father is stealing from his mom and destroying her belongings and he won't do anything and he's mad that he's not the executor of her estate. This is ridiculous. I can see why this walking butt pustule of a man is your ex husband.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Do I have any legal right to make her sons help her? Can I press charges against my ex father in law? What do I do for a lady who's dear to me and my sons but drives me crazy because she doesn't seem to want to help herself? Signed. A dutiful ex daughter in law. Protecting her ex's vulnerable MA from his thieving no good PA when all she does is hem and ha.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh man, this is a sad story. Mostly sad. Your relationship with your ex mother in law, despite the fact that you're no longer married to her son. You've built this whole other life. It's quite touching actually. And honestly, it's a huge relief because I'm genuinely worried about this woman. She's vulnerable, she doesn't have any other allies from the sound of it, and she struggles to protect herself. That is really tragic and like you said, it's crazy making. So to answer your question, no, you don't have any legal right to make her sons help their mom, unfortunately. Interesting. In a lot of US states, including Washington, there are what's called filial responsibility laws on the books. These are laws that basically say that adult children can be financially responsible for indigent parents who can't support themselves. But these laws are rarely enforced and I'm not an expert in this area by any means. My understanding is that they usually come into play when a nursing home or the state is trying to recover unpaid long term care costs. They're of no help when it comes to forcing a child to care for a parent. They're just, they're basically about reimbursement and only the state can enforce them. You wouldn't actually be able to. And no, you can't press charges against your ex father in law. Yeah, you could call the cops and report the crime if it was a crime. The fact that she's still living with him, that's gonna complicate things. But they could theoretically pursue charges if there's clear evidence that he stole or destroyed her stuff. But generally speaking, I'm pretty sure the victim has to cooperate with the police in criminal cases involving theft or property destruction. If she doesn't, the cops are going to shrug, maybe they'll write up a report. Nothing's going to get done though. So that's the bad news. The good News is, I don't think this is the end of the road. I would gather information on housing options either in your ex mother in law's area or in your area and go to her like, hey, I know this is a lot to think about. I know it's scary. I'm your partner in this. I can help you find a safe and comfortable place to live. Will you help me do that? I don't know what your and your ex mother in law's budget would be, but if money is an issue, I would look into low income senior housing, HUD, Section 8 vouchers, Section 202 supportive housing, public housing. A lot of these options often adjust rent to match income. You could also consider affordable retirement communities, maybe look into roommate situations. There are some creative options here. Yes, it can take a while to be approved for these places. Years sometimes. That sucks. The system is flawed, but it can work. The key here, whether you look for a small apartment on your own or you try to get her plugged into a program, the key is going to be presenting this option to her many times over a long period of time and really putting in the work to help her feel safe, taking the leap and trusting you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm guessing that she's terrified of venturing out on her own and finally leaving her ex husband for good, potentially moving to a whole new city. I mean, for an elderly person, that can be really daunting, for sure.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So be patient, be compassionate, which you clearly are. Try to get her to explain her resistance, her fears and then find ways to address them. And maybe you say, look, if you choose to stay in this situation, I will still love you, I will still check in on you, I'll still support you, the kids and I'll still visit you. But there's only so much I can do here if you're not a little open to trying something new. And my hope is that you have this conversation enough times. Maybe she sees that things are not getting better at home and then one day she's like, okay, I've had it, I'm ready.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or maybe you take her to see a couple of apartments near you and she can actually imagine her life in one of these places instead of just, you know, facing this abstract new chapter that's probably pretty scary to her and that's what makes her feel confident to take the leap.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Totally. That'd be great.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would also keep in mind, if you ever suspect that your ex mother in law is experiencing something closer to elder abuse or financial exploitation, you can contact adult protective services In Washington State, this is one of the best resources out there for protecting older folks. You make a report, they will investigate. And if they decide that yes, your ex mother in law is being exploited or is being abused, they can do a number of things. They can create a safety plan with her. They can arrange for temporary shelter, food assistance, medical care in home support even. They can help her secure her assets, connect her with legal aid, revoke access to the property if necessary. In extreme cases, they can even recommend removal of the abuser from the home. I don't know if her ex husband really qualifies as an abuser, but if it gets really bad, they can look into that. They usually can't make that call alone and it can take some time, but they can coordinate with courts or law enforcement to make it happen.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if the police get involved, that can lead to charges for theft, fraud, vandalism, even elder abuse.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yep. So this can really make a difference if things are bad enough. I don't know if they are bad enough, but if they get there, this is an option.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm a big fan of aps, but Gabe, if this woman has her wits about her and can make some decisions for herself, she's not senile, she's not suffering from dementia or disabled in some way, and her ex husband isn't, I don't know, textbook abusing her APS can't really force her to accept help, Right?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. And so as we come back to time and time again, you also have to accept that there really is only so much you can do here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It sucks, man. I hate the thought of this older lady living with this guy with no one around to protect her. And I can just imagine what that's like day to day, just some guy being mean to you all the time and you're worried about your stuff and yourself.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, the reality is that it's true. You cannot care about your ex mother in law's safety more than she. I mean, you can and it's incredibly sweet that you do, but that is not going to guarantee that she changes her circumstances.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And it might not be entirely appropriate.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know when it comes to vulnerable people, older people, it's hard to know how much they're really, quote, unquote, choosing to stay in a bad situation. You view her living situation as a choice. She probably doesn't feel like it's a choice or not much of a choice. I'm guessing that she just feels constrained by her fear of change, by perhaps her trauma, by the lack of support from her sons.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So so it's tough really hating those guys more and more, I gotta say.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know. Where are they in all? This bothers me. So she could definitely use your confidence and your concern, but if she absolutely refuses to leave, then there really is not anything you can do again. Unless she's being abused according to certain criteria. So at some point, you might have to honor that preference and then live with the sadness and the frustration and the anxiety of not being able to get her out of there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Either that or go down an alt right rabbit hole. I hear that really helps.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. Andrew Tate should be able to help you figure out how to care for your ex mother in law. Yes, I think that's one of his specialties. What is it? Misogyny, women as property, and helping ex mother in laws when they need to move out of abusive homes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Those are his most fired videos. Basically, it's the Jews. The Jews are destroying her property.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So, bottom line, keep trying to influence the situation as much as you can, but it might be time to shift your role from savior to supporter here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I'm with you, Gabe. I'm just wondering if there's any role her sons can play in this. I know. I just trashed these guys. I mean, they do sound terrible, but based on what we're hearing, they're either not understanding the severity of the situation or they are just complete jerks.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, they also seem to be resentful and perhaps envious that our friend here is the executor and they're not. And instead of being good partners to our friend here, they're just refusing to help and making things harder because they can't stand that this woman, who is not part of their family anymore, directly stands to benefit from the estate. Which is absurd. Of course.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Being the executor is hardly like, yay, I won the lottery. I mean, you're taking care of someone's estate. It's a mess. Okay, okay, it's not fun. Look, I get why they're upset, but also, it's not like either of these pricks have shown that they are the right caretakers for her. So, I don't know, maybe shut the fuck up, Darren, and think about how you're gonna feel when you bury your mom. Anyway, my point. What was my point? My point was, despite how they've behaved, I wonder if she can work on her ex husband a little bit. Like, look, I know you don't have a place for her to live. I understand you don't want to get involved because you're not the Executor. But look, it's your mom. She's vulnerable. She needs you. I know it's not fun to work with me, but I do know that you love her. So can you please be my partner in this? Can we put our heads together and figure this out? Can you talk to her? Get her to consider living somewhere else? Whatever it is you want from him, maybe you've tried that, but if you haven't, it is worth a shot. And if you need more leverage, maybe you appeal to his sense of guilt. Like, are you really okay with her staying in that house when your dad is stealing from her? What kind of son do you want to be? How are you going to feel about all this when she's gone?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nice dark Jordan strategy there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm not above a little manipulation when it comes to stuff like this. Look, if this guy really is selfish, that might be what gets through to him. I know. Again, I know it's kind of manipulative, but I'm just giving you as many options as possible. Because as close as you and your ex mother in law are, she might need one of her own sons to make her feel comfortable getting out. And if you can make that happen, that would be worth the effort. Sorry things are playing out this way. It really is super sad. Thank goodness you're in the picture. I shudder to think what would happen to this woman if you weren't there looking out for her. I know it's a big responsibility, but you could make a big difference here. And if you can't, that's okay too. You haven't failed. But like Gabe said, then this becomes about your process of coming to terms with that and working through the feelings, which I think all caretakers have to deal with to some degree. Including me, by the way, sending you and your ex mother in law a big hug and wishing you all the best. All right now some deals and discounts so good even your walking butt pustule of an ex can appreciate them. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy. And Bombas is leading that charge. In my house, we love Bombas so much. It's all we wear. We even gift it to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the grip socks so we don't slip around on our floors. Bombas just launched their new sports socks, which are amazing for whatever you're into. Running, golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year and these things are cushioned, sweat, wicking and packed with techy features that make it feel like your feet are finally on your side around the house at night. I'm living in their Sunday slippers which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights. And Bombas also has underwear and tees. Buttery, soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ru every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated over 150 million so far.

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Head over to bombas.comjordan and use code jordan for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.comjordan code jordan@ checkout this episode is also sponsored by ZipRecruiter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

You can reach us Friday at JordanHarbinger.com Please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're going out of your mind working for a narcissistic politician of a boss, you're in a relationship with an unstable addict who refuses to get better, or you're trying to keep your schizoaffective sister out of prison when she's rejecting your help. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up [e-mail], we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All right, next up Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 16 and from the UK and I have an issue with zoning out quite consistently. This happens in many circumstances, lessons, video calls, and sometimes just being idle and often results in me making weird facial expressions, not registering when people are talking to me, and most importantly, not taking in information. Your podcast, which I love, is usually my background noise, helping to prevent boredom through some stimulation. But I also really care about the information being shared and I want to take it in more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this is really high stakes stuff. You're not getting every second of the show. You're missing the sponsor codes. Look, we gotta fix this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

As much as I care, it's very difficult for me to just not zone out. The only method of preventing this that I found is taking notes, which is hardly practical while walking across campus, being on a bus, etc. I try my very best to avoid the idea of this being related to any mental condition, since I feel like my problems are less significant than what I've heard from people who have one. But I guess it's not out of the question. Is there a chance that this could link to ADHD or ADD any advice on how to focus better in everyday situations? Signed a young chap trying to be frank about the fact that he's drawing a blank even when the content is dank.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I think I told a story on the show like a year ago about how I went to a dinner party with my wife and I completely forgot about somebody who was there, even though I was apparently talking to him for like 45 minutes. Which is weird because I never forget a face.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You don't forget the face, but you forget the person entirely.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Forgot the entire interview interaction.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, you're like Dory from Finding Nemo but with a microphone kind of.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Except then I'll randomly remember the color of the jacket of a guy I met in Serbia 25 years ago, or all these random details from my research for a show guest or so. It's not like I don't have a Men in Black style memory wipe every 10 seconds. It's kind of the opposite. And it happens to me all the time. My mind just wanders. It likes to ruminate and get into things. It always has. Probably surprised to no one that I got diagnosed with ADHD in college. Actually might have even been in law school by that time. Or Close to it. I'm not an expert in this clinically at all, of course, but I know from my own experience how this kind of brain tends to work. The only time my mind doesn't wander much anyway is when I genuinely, really, genuinely care about the subject. I know there's going to be consequences if I don't pay attention and I'm just wrapped because it's so good. It's like interviewing guests doing feedback Friday. Rarely my mind wanders during those times, but if it's almost anything else, even if it's kinda interesting, if it isn't freaking riveting and important, my attention wanders. So I'm not sure if I have the answer. Every brain is different and every person has to find their own approach to this. But here's a few things I've learned. First of all, if I were you, I'd start to get curious about what actually happens when you zone out. Do you zone out and go nowhere? Are you just dissociating or. Or do you zone out and you go somewhere else? That's what I do. Maybe you go somewhere more interesting or more pressing or more stimulating. Those are very different things. Dissociating or withdrawing. There are many causes of that. It could be anxiety, stress, trauma, could be a struggle to relate, could be sleep issues. Mentally traveling to something more interesting. That's just a very different thing. And it's extremely common.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And what you mentally travel to is probably just as important as well, because the things that your mind enjoys drifting to when it's bored, I imagine that's. That might reveal your true interests, maybe the direction you should be heading in life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, or it might even reveal something about the way your brain connects information that could be a huge asset. So I say don't just catch yourself zoning out. Try to figure out what the quality of your zoning out is. Write down your observations, see what you can learn. Obviously, look, I can't diagnose you or whatever. Nobody can do that remotely. But yes, of course there's a chance this focus thing could be related to ADD or adhd. Your brain might just be wired or conditioned to move around a lot. You might have a rich inner life or whatever they call it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He did say that our show is background noise and it gives him stimulation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Much needed stimulation.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And feeling the need to be stimulated. Kind of one of the hallmarks of add, man. Look, in some contexts, this thing was a real struggle for me, like school, working at the law firm. Although it was hard to tell if I just had trouble focusing or if I just hated what I was doing running my own company, me, way less of a problem. And most of the time it's an asset. Because when my brain jumps around to different subjects and makes connections, I go, oh, I wonder if that could be an episode, or, oh, I should write that guest and tell them what I learned over here, or whatever. I say that to remind you that this brain, yes, it's challenging sometimes, but if you use it in the right way, if you gravitate to roles and fields that benefit from it, it can be a real gift, a superpower. But here's where it gets complicated. Add, adhd, other forms of neurodivergence. Yes, they are real. It's also true that the world we live in, our tech especially, is doing serious damage to our attention. Very serious. Social media, endless scrolling, short form content, constant notifications, video games. It is so obvious that they're disrupting our cognitive function and our memory and our decision making. They're basically forcing our brains into a near constant state of shallow, distracted processing. It's actually insane.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was listening to an expert on this recently who referred to the impact of all of this tech as attentional injury.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Attentional injury, That's a great term.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I guess a lot of researchers are now thinking of it as a kind of trauma, ongoing trauma, and we need to allow our brains to heal from it. Which means, usually means taking long breaks from our phones especially.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, I'm screwed. But that does not surprise me. The assault on our brains from all these inputs. You can feel it, man. The dopamine hits, the deprivation when you don't get them. The struggle to pay attention for long periods of time, that is kind of an injury. Yeah, it's like getting a TBI via photons or something. But I think people your age, you guys are getting it way worse. Sadly, because you guys grew up with all this tech. It's all you've ever known. I feel pretty lucky that I got to be an Eagle Scout and lived in Germany and I didn't have a phone until I was like 19 or 18. At least my brain got to experience that before it got to experience the iPhone and Call of Duty or whatever. Like I said, a few weeks ago or a couple months ago on the show, my host father gave me a cell phone when I was in Germany in like 1990. And I refused to use it and take it with me. And he was like, take the damn phone. And I was like, no way, man. Now if I leave my phone at home and I drive two blocks, I'm turning around to get that thing. Like, I can't. I just can't. So look, my point is, it can be hard sometimes to know if you have something clinical or if you're just a person with a smartphone and a YouTube account, like, do I have a disease? Am I suffering from brain damage? Or do I just use social media?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or am I just a modern human?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So my advice is. Okay, a little bit of a paradox here. On one hand, I think your job right now is to study your mind, figure out how it naturally operates, learn to work with it as much as possible. That's what a lot of ADD coaches and experts teach their clients to do. I think that's healthy. You can read online about specifics of that. It's a lot of task management, organizing your day, doing things in the right order or stuff like that. I wish I had an ADD coach back in the day. That would have been amazing. And on the other hand, I also think your job is to start training your mind to focus for longer periods of time. With more intention. You can watch and listen to more long form content like this show. You can bring more awareness to your attention. Almost like a form of meditation. See how long you can focus on something before you zone out. When you do catch yourself, come back to the present, hit, rewind, do it again, Try to focus for longer. It's just like going to the gym. Do it enough, you will see the gains. I also like your method of taking notes. I know you said that that's not practical when you're walking or riding the bus. Why not, man? You could tap out some notes in your notes app while you're on the go. You can pause a podcast and talk into your voice note app and have AI transcribe it, whatever. It's another step, sure, but maybe that'll lead to even more multitasking. I just don't think it's a bad idea. I don't think it's the worst idea. I would also see if, again, AI tools can help here. They might make it harder to focus, but some of them can present information in a way that's really helpful to a brain. Like yours slash mine, dude. If I'd been able to drop legal cases and Supreme Court briefs, whatever, into these tools and say, hey, explain to me what I need to understand about this, why it matters, what the key takeaway principles are. Law school would have been very different for me. Man, I used to have to read those things literally 10, 20, 30, 50 times. And I totally Missed lectures in high school that I was and law school and college that I was in the room for. Man, I just zoned out. I was in there, I was in space. Imagine recording a lecture on a digital device, dumping that into AI and being like, recap this thing for me. Total game changer. And then you start to remember, oh, I remember when he said that. Okay, so that's what that was. Oh, I missed these 10 minutes, but now I get it. Man, that would have been great.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Have you used Notebook LLM? Jordan?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's actually crazy. Tell me what you're thinking though, first.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, it's just pretty amazing. I played with it the other day and it has this feature where you can drop, like, you can drop Google Docs and PDFs and ebooks and like whatever sources you want into this thing and then you can ask it whatever questions you want. But it has this one feature where it will create a conversation between two AI hosts talking about the subject as if it were a podcast, which is insane. And suddenly the same subject that was maybe hard to focus on, or there's just way too much information for you to digest and understand. It becomes super engaging and understandable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this is exactly what I checked out. My friend is suing a big company and he dumped all of the legal docs into Notebook LLM and it created, I don't know, a 20 minute podcast. When I listened to this thing to get a summary, I was like, podcasting is. This is a shot across the bow for shows that just deliver information and don't have anything else to add. Isn't incredible because it literally sounds like an intelligent young lady and an intelligent young dude talking. And it would say something like, yeah, so this is a case of so and so, and he is suing big company X. And wow, is this quite a story. So first of all, here's what happened. And they go through his injury.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's exactly what it sounds like. That's exactly what it sounds like. They'll be like. And he's saying. And I mean, like, he's making a good point. Yeah, that, that. And the other guy's like, yeah, but let's also remember the other side is coming back with this argument.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, it's crazy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It really is wild. And then at the end, and they're like, and this is what's actually unbelievable. And then they say something surprising. They don't. So I often will make a mistake where it goes. And this is what's unbelievable. It's Tuesday, February 23rd, and you're like, what? That's not. They actually do say, and this is what's actually unbelievable, they didn't pay him his severance. Can you believe that? Oh, that's just adding insult to injury. And you're like, wow, it understands what it's saying and why this is an emotionally charged part. It's just crazy to me that this exists. And so if you want to dump some boring information into something and make it interesting, this is how you do it, man. It's a crazy useful tool. And if I had this when I was in college, holy smokes. Different experience entirely.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I will say, not to sound like Notebook LLMs, fake podcasters, but there is a counter argument to this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What's the other side? Tell me more.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The other side. Well, they're making some good points, but you know, I think, well, I do wonder if maybe some of these AI tools will force our friend here and other people like him to not have to learn how to focus because they're doing all the work for him. And that might cut across this really great exercise you just gave him, but they can be enormously useful for people who struggle to process written information, or even people who don't struggle, but just can't get through hundreds and hundreds of pages of this stuff and come away with the right takeaways ways. But anybody who learns better in audio, this feature is a game changer.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I agree. And look, yes, there's something to this, but also, oh my God, you might not be able to process hundreds of pages of written information. Well, yeah, the point is, you don't ever have to do that again. Remember when we were younger, Gabe, and they would go, you need to learn how to do algebra in your head because you're not always going to have a calculator in your pocket. Well, how did that work out, Mrs. Greer? I have a calculator in my pocket when I need algebra once every decade. And it just does it for me. Me. Look, is it good to focus? Yes. Should you be practicing when it's high stakes and you're going to have this stuff on an exam? I would say maybe not. You can practice in other ways. You want to go to a lecture, Focus on the lecture. Go ahead, train your muscles. That way you don't have to do it at 8 o' clock in the morning.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But you know what's so crazy about what you're saying is that they used to tell us, you need to know how to go to the library and look up the call number and go find the book and Then the Internet came out and you're like, no, we don't need to do that. That's dumb. This is like, same thing with the calculator or whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This, though, is saying you don't actually have to develop your brain in the same way we have a new brain.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, it's true.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This brain exists outside of your brain, so you don't have to do a lot of this work anymore. It might be the exact same principle. But I do wonder if maybe that is a whole other category of this technology.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I think so. And look, you want to be able to synthesize the information so you don't cheat yourself out of it. But I don't know, man. I look at it this way. If you are hearing impaired and you go to a college lecture and you record it and you put it into AI so you can read it, everyone's like, yay, look at you. Coping strategy. If you can't listen well, and you put it in and you record it and then you put it in AI and have it summarize. And everyone's like, oh, that's cheating.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You're lazy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Why? Because you can see the other person's disability and you can't see his. So one's lying and one's not. That's like yelling at somebody who parks in a handicap spot and going, you don't probably have arthritis. You're walking and it's like, yeah, it hurts. Every step is painful. So I try to walk as little as possible. Go park further away. I can't see your arthritis. That's what we're doing to these people.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And you know what? You can really see what the other side's arguing. Yeah, some good points.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Making some good points.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's what Notebook LLM would say anyway.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I wonder if we put all this together, this could become a part of a new system for you. Let's say you're listening to the show. What if you tried taking notes while you listened? You dropped them into an AI tool, you sent a summary to people you think would benefit from them. Then you know you need to be paying attention. Your notes aren't just an excuse to focus for yourself. You're also creating content. And then you can save those notes and refer back to them regularly so you can remember what you learned. This is why I'm able to focus on audio books. One, they're audiobooks. But two, I know I've got to take notes on them because I got to do a show about it. So I do focus on the book. More than if I was just passively listening in the car. So there's your focus training, your processing and your networking taken care of in one fell swoop. I would also consider definitely being assessed by a psychologist, but only if you think the label is going to be useful to you. If it's just going to give you permission to go, welp, can't concentrate, have add, never going to work on this. If you're going to use it to let yourself off the hook completely, that's not going to do much for you. If it's only going to stress you out or it's going to create more resentment or embarrassment, maybe skip it. But if the label helps you find the resources you need, coaches, books, communities, other people with add, certain allowances or structures at school, a therapist who specializes in neurodivergence, that's a good reason to find out. And it's all about what you do with these labels. And honestly, you might not even need a label to make progress here. But listen, just the fact that you're noticing this tendency to, that you're seeing the costs, that's frankly a huge step. I can hear that you're motivated to work on this. Your motivation is about getting the most out of your media and your interactions, which I think is awesome. And that tells me that you want to have fulfilling experiences and that is going to take you very far. So stay connected to that, put in the work, find that balance between self acceptance and self improvement which we all have to do in every area of our life. And I think you'll be amazed by what you can do. Good luck. Luck. All right. Now for the recommendation of the week,

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I am addicted to lip filler.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That soundbite hits different today.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

RIP to our boy. I can't believe we're saying this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So for people who are not in the subreddit and slash don't follow celebrity gossip, which is probably most of you crazy story. So the guy who said I am addicted to lip filler, his name is Jordan James Park. He weirdly died six days ago. He was 34. For the investigation is still going on. There's no formal cause of death yet, but I guess there are reports that he might have undergone some kind of cosmetic procedure before he died. Two people, a 43 year old man and a 52 year old woman, they were arrested on suspicion of manslaughter, which is kind of fascinating because a couple years ago Jordan himself was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter After a 33 year old mother of five died. She was getting something called a liquid BBL at a clinic he ran. I guess it's where they inject a bunch of filler into your butt. And he wasn't ultimately charged in that case, but he was scheduled to answer bail next month, which, in England, that basically means returning to the police station on the date you were required to come back after being released. So I don't know all the details of that botched procedure, but the fact that he might have slash. Probably died after his own procedure, it's just sort of weirdly karmic. I don't mean he deserved it or anything. I'm just saying it's all ironic. The subreddit found this and somebody was like, oh, no wonder the licensing of the sound bite got easier. Come on, guys. No, it didn't get easier because he's dead. It got easier because he wasn't in jail anymore. And I sent him a message on Instagram and he replied. I didn't wait until he croaked. Give me a little credit, folks. Anyway, strange and fascinating story. Don't know quite what to make of this guy. I mean, he's just such a. He's a strange duck. I don't want to speculate too much, but Godspeed, Jordan James Park. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Our patron saint of wreck of the week for now and evermore.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I thought, okay, we do this soundbite. It's a throwaway. And then when we stopped using it, people were like, wait, wait, wait, where's the sound bite?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Where's our boy?

[Jordan Harbinger]

He's gonna live on forever in that iconic sound bite. Anyway, my recommendation of the week is speaking of focus. The reduced interruptions focus on your Mac and iPhone. So a focus is like do not disturb or, you know, regular rigger on whatever. Most people have heard of do not disturb, and they either use that or they're just available to everyone all the time. So it's off. This feature called reduced interruptions, it allows you to pick who can text you, who can call you, and you can say, like, if anybody calls me twice in a row, it breaks through within three minutes. It takes five minutes to set up. It's a game changer. You can also select which apps can notify you. So, like, yes, I want to get texts. No, I don't want to get email notifications or whatever. If you have Android, I'm pretty sure there's something similar to this. This feature is so money. It's so important for getting stuff done while also protecting your focus and your time. So, basically, if you set this up instead of getting distracted every five minutes because friggin Hungry Panda wants to tell me about a deal on bubble tea or I've got my phone on Do Not Disturb and I check it three hours later to find out that Jen's been locked out of the house the whole time and couldn't reach me. You kind of find this happy medium where the people and apps that you actually want to hear from, they can reach you and everyone else just goes straight to voicemail or it hits your phone with no notification. I don't know how it took me so dang long to optimize this, but I had my phone on do not disturb for like a decade. This is a far better compromise. I am a big, big fan of this feature. It's a game changer. So enjoy. And if none of that works to improve your focus, amphetamines never killed anyone, right? Citation needed. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audiobooks a week prepping for the show. And let's be real, there's there is just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all. Audio is my mode. I'm listening on Audible while I'm getting my 10,000 steps in, sipping coffee on the couch, all while jotting notes down into my phone. Honestly, I wish I'd had Audible back in the day instead of zoning out to hours of mindless tv. Imagine how much smarter I could have turned out. Listening on Audible feels like downloading knowledge straight into my head. Lately I've been into Michael Aaron Flicker and Richard Shotton's Hacking the Human Mind. Super fascinating stuff on Infinite Influence, decision making, what actually drives people, and Audible's well being collection goes way beyond that. Brene Brown, Jamie Oliver on nutrition, even nature sleep sounds from the sleeping world. Whatever supports your mindset, health or daily routine. Audible has it. Membership is $14.95 a month. After 30 days you can cancel anytime. Audible there's more to imagine when you listen. Kickstart your well being journey with your first audiobook. Free when you sign up for a free 30 day [e-mail] jhs this episode is also sponsored by AG1. When I'm on the road, routines go out the window. Airport food, no sleep, different time zones. You tell yourself you get back on track when you get home. But the truth is, consistency is what actually keeps you feeling good. That's where AG1 can make life easier. AG1 is a daily health drink clinically shown to support gut health and fill common nutrient gaps. It's got 75 plus ingredients, including five clinically studied probiotic strains. Instead of packing a multivitamin, why do they say 75 plus? Why don't they just say like 76 70? Instead of packing a multivitamin, probiotics and whatever else you think you need, it's one scoop done. They've even got travel packs which are easy to throw in your bag. Just shake it up with a bottle of water. Your bases are covered. What I appreciate most about AG1 is simplicity. Most supplement routines are complicated, makes it not sustainable long term. AG1 simplifies it. Vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, superfoods, antioxidants, all in one.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Go to drinkag1.com Jordan to get an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 for free in your AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order order only while supplies last. That's drinkag1.com Jordan if you like this

[Jordan Harbinger]

episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment support our sponsors. They're all linked, searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals if that doesn't work, email us jordanharbinger.com, we'll dig up the code for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show. All right, what's next?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Next Hi Jordan and Gabe. I've been friendly with my manager for many years and considered her almost a mentor. She usually has great advice, treats all of us with respect, and seems to truly care about our development. Then recently I went to her for advice after a meeting with a team lead who's not in my chain of command, in which this team lead was incredibly combative and angry and spoke to me in a raised voice that allowed me little time to reply to her accusations. The main one was that I was setting up meetings with our VP on a joint project without her and she doesn't like being left out. I hadn't set up any meetings with our VP at all. The VP had set up meetings with me and I'm pretty sure this team lead was in each one. My role on this project is just to make sure that we meet our deadline. My organization does not support speaking to each other the way the team lead spoke to me. If I had spoken half as rudely to anyone else in the office, I would have been in a lot of trouble. Trouble. When I finally replied calmly to the team lead, she seemed to believe me. We parted ways and she was much calmer. But I don't trust that things are actually okay. The problem is she complained about me to my manager before I was able to ask my manager for advice. By the time I talked to my manager, she let me know that she was getting complaints about me and that I needed to fix things. She wouldn't even try to give advice or comment on the horrible meeting with the team leading lead. She only listened to my story to point at language that suggested I was trying to quote further my own agenda and quote, ignoring the interests of others, which were the specific complaints that my manager had received. I left that meeting feeling like a horrible person. My manager did have some good ideas on routinely touching base with colleagues. I admit I should work harder to get to know them. But when I asked for advice on how to approach the situation with the team lead, she said I could try something, but but it doesn't mean I'll avoid a conflict like it again. Now I feel I can't trust my manager anymore. I want to tell her how her reaction made me feel, how disappointed I am that she couldn't even try to give me advice on managing the situation. But the couple trusted peers I've confided in say that I should just let it go. I think I'm grieving a great relationship with my manager.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, really good insight. I love that you're already onto this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is there a way to fix my relationship with my manager manager? Should I throw away years of trust over one terrible event? Is there a way to talk to her without making things worse? Signed a professional. Starting to quaver and hoping to be braver after apparently falling out of favor.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting situation, lots going on. Let's try to cut to the chase. So first off, being chewed out at work, I think we can all agree, never fun. It's unpleasant, It's a little scary. It sounds like this conflict was particularly difficult given the way it went very down. So I'm sorry that happened. And this team lead. Look, we only have your story to go on, but she sounds frankly annoying, a little paranoid. And even if she had a point, it sounds to me like she didn't handle this conversation very well. You attending meetings with this VP without her, that clearly did not sit well with her. It sounds like her read on all this is that you are being political and or self interested, not a team player. You're saying I was just there to get this thing across the finish line, I had no other motive. So honestly, I have no idea if this team lead had a point. I can't tell if she was justifiably angry about being excluded from a meeting she needed to be in or if she was just responding to you from a place of insecurity, which I know is very common in companies and part of the reason I could never work in one again. Of course, it could easily be both. But then you had that conversation with your manager. She didn't respond to you the way that you'd hoped, and you feel she didn't really have your back. Again, in the interest of total fairness, I don't know if that's because she kind of sided with the team lead or because she wasn't really listening to you, you taking you seriously, or because she had 17 other things to deal with and she didn't have time to get into this with you. All could be true, but that's not really what your letter is about. I think what your letter is really about is what it's like to be in conflict with colleagues and the disappointment and sadness at not being protected by your manager, who you've come to look to for guidance and for support. So Gabe, which one holds the key here? Where do we dig in?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know. Take your pick. They might be two different doors to the same room. Really?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'll start by saying I think I share her peers opinion that she shouldn't take this to her manager right now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I agree with that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's not that she doesn't have a point. It sounds like her manager could have been a lot more generous and helpful with her advice, even if she did think our friend was in the wrong. But I don't think that's the person she needs to repair with. I think the person she needs to repair with is this team lead. And the best way to do that is just to tell her, look, I hear you loud and clear. You want to be in these meetings with the vp, fine with me. I'm going to invite you to all of them or tell you when they're happening and you can tell me if you'd like to join. Sorry for giving you the wrong impression. It was truly unintentional. And then you know what? Do that. Show her you're not trying to sideline or sabotage her. You're interested in being collaborative. You're taking a real interest in her and her goals at this company and all you want to do is help them get this project across the finish line. That should patch things Up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And then her manager will probably see that and go, oh, okay, cool. Laura's got this. She's taking responsibility. She's learning. She's not running to me to solve everything for. For her solid employee. We're good. I've forgotten already.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. And if she needs to put a bow on it, in a few weeks, she can go to her manager. Like, hey, I just wanted to let you know Tina and I sorted things out. Happy to fill you in on why they played out the way they did if you want, but bottom line, we're in sync now. It won't happen again. Sorry you got dragged into it. If her goal is to really fix the relationship with her manager, the best thing she can do is take concrete steps to address the situation on her own.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Not just talk about it more. I totally agree. Part of me also wonders if she even really needs to fix anything with her manager.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know what you mean. It almost feels like she's spinning out, doing a lot of work around this somehow, but I can't quite put my finger on why.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, I don't know exactly why either. That's going to be for her to figure out. But what I'm hearing in the story is, well, a few things. First of all, she got tangled up with this team lead. That person kind of tore into her, mostly unfairly, maybe entirely unfairly, and then compromised her reputation with her manager, which sucks. But that really seems to have done a number on her. So much so let's remember that she left that meeting feeling like a horrible battle person.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, that did jump out at me, too. When you read that part, I was like, I get feeling a little bit bad or feeling exposed, but a horrible person. Why?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, there's like a whole judgment and maybe a shame piece attached to that. Right. So the sense that I'm getting is that our friend here is very vulnerable to other people's opinions of her, very concerned about, you know, her standing in the office with her colleagues and maybe being accused of being political and not collaborative. I wonder if that hurt. Not in a, oh, this feels bad. This feels gross. But I'll be okay. I just need to give them a chance to calm down, show them I'm not that person. We're going to be okay. But in a, like, oh, this conflict is dangerous. This is irreparable. These opinions are fatal, and I must be at fault. I'm the worst.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right? Right. Which has got to go back a long way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, Usually, Yeah. And again, only she can know for sure. But I think when we have this strong of a reaction, it's helpful to remember that our capacity for conflict with other people, our capacity to bear the negative opinions or feelings about us, that almost always depends on the quality of our early primary relationships.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Mom, dad, siblings, caregivers, etc.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, all of the above. Yeah, they're all with us at work, weirdly enough. So if she's looking for an explanation for why she feels so extremely anxious or why she feels so guilty, this I must be a horrible person thing in general, she might want to look back a long way. But it's interesting you bring up mom Jordan before, because when she was describing this relationship with her manager, I was thinking mom vibes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right? Major mom vibes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Major mom vibes. I do wonder if this manager is a kind of surrogate mother to her or she's maybe taken on shades of a parent figure. I mean, how did she describe her again? She said she usually has great advice. She treats us all with respect.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it sounds sort of mom ish to me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And not just a mom, but kind of like an amazing mom. Like maybe even an idealized mom. Right. She clearly looks up to this woman. She values her advice and support. She needs her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. Well, she considers her a mentor.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All very interesting and also all very normal. We fall into these templates with other people based on our early relationships, our needs, and our wounds, of course. And so we could probably talk for hours about idealization and what causes it. It's actually super interesting. But my sense is that when this manager didn't really have her back, that didn't just register as disappointment. It registered as something more profound, like abandonment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Totally. Mom was not there for me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Mom wasn't there for me. And mom is not as perfect as I thought she was. So this whole event came kind of shattered her idealization of her boss.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's the grief she was referring to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Although she talked about as grieving a great relationship with her manager. I think that's one big layer of it. But underneath that, I wonder if there's maybe a deeper grief about losing the idealized image of her and what that meant to her, like how her manager might have kept her feeling safe or supported or propped up, protected in the office. And now that's gone, or at least

[Jordan Harbinger]

it's changed, which sounds like a big loss for her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It does. I mean, to be fair, that can be extremely, you know, destabilizing, kind of terrifying and painful, depending on what your past is. And then it gives rise to all these other feelings. Shame, guilt, fear.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sadness, all of which do seem to be in the mix here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And this impulse to work very hard to win the mother figure back over, to get back in her good graces, maybe to recreate the idealization because the loss is just so painful. I think that's what you were picking up on a moment ago, Jordan. You said she's spinning out and doing a lot of work here. This might be the work that she's trying to do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, now that makes a lot more sense. So it feels like a workplace conflict. It's actually this Freudian clusterf.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I think so. All of life is a Freudian clusterf. CK really? We're all children deep down. Right. The history follows us everywhere.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Can't escape it, I guess.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nope. But crises like these are really good opportunities to see this stuff more clearly. My hunch is that her manager and this team lead have just like recreated her family system somehow in ways that we don't fully understand right there in the office.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's fascinating. And yeah, I agree, it's important for her to see. It's just painful. Painful, but. So, okay, what's the solution to losing an idealized relationship then? Do you just let go of the idea that this person you look up to is perfect? Do you just accept they're flawed?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, but actually, I think it's more the second thing, accepting that they're flawed. Idealization says, mommy is perfect, daddy is perfect, boyfriend is perfect, whoever it is. Perfect means they don't have flaws or limitations or contradictions. So I can love them and depend on them them without having to feel the anxiety of being in a relationship with all of them, meaning the entirety of them. De Idealization. Reality means integrating all of these parts of a person and then loving them, you know, in spite of those contradictions, or maybe even because of those contradictions. That's what a fully developed adult does.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So she could still have a good relationship with her manager?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Absolutely. It won't be the same relationship, but I think it'll be a better relationship because it'll be a more truthful relationship and therefore, you know, more mature.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So she'll have to relate to her manager as a person who can be really great sometimes and sometimes can be, I don't know, you name it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Short, distant, overwhelmed, unavailable, inconsistent, impatient sometimes. Exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right, right. And that's going to require her to be able to tolerate all of those qualities too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, exactly. When she says, should I throw away years of trust over one terrible event? I would say, no, not at all. You don't. But the Trust that you had in her was probably based in part on an inaccurate picture of who your manager is. Incomplete picture. And the fact that you feel you might have to throw it all away now, that might reflect a certain anxiety you have about being in conflict with people in general, like Jordan said, but also of being in relationship with a flawed figure like this fully.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's an either or thing there. Either manager and I are amazing, we have total trust, or we're no longer close and I have to throw it all away.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. And you can imagine how that picture gets developed if you come from a background where people were not consistently close with you through conflict, where you could still feel safe and protected even when there was a problem. Exactly right. So that kind of black or white thinking is a huge part of what she's writing in about. We've gone on a long time about this, so I don't want to bang on about this, but I feel very strongly that one of the big projects of growing up is making this transition in our relationships so that we can be in a real relationship with all of somebody. Not just the parts of them that are convenient or not, just the idea that we have of them, not just the parts of them that support a narrative about who are they? They are, you know, the idealized version of them, but them for who they actually are.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just one more reason to not talk to her manager directly about all this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Agreed. I would not go to her and be like, you know, before I totally idealized you, but now I see your flaws and I love all of you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, this is an inside job. I think at least for the moment,

[Jordan Harbinger]

best not to work out your mommy issue with the boss until you've got a good handle on it. Yes, but everything we're talking about can happen on your side of the equation. And almost everything with your manager and your team lead will start to settle and repair on own. Its that got intense, Gabe. I'm going to need a little palate cleanser after that. I thought we were just going to talk about some office drama. I guess. I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Feedback Friday Baby, when your manager is mad at you, that's mommy. And when your team lead turns on you, that's your sibling. Sorry. That's how it works.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, thanks for letting us Lydia you my friend. Lots to learn here. A lot of room to grow. You got this. And good luck. Go back and check out the episode with Nir Eyal on the science of belief. If you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself. The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need them. Sixminutenetworking.com is where you can find it shownotes on the website, Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show [e-mail] deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course Gabriel Mazarin Rahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, hey, share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. If you like this show, there's another podcast you should check out. If you want to stay informed about what's happening around the world without drowning in noise, check out the President's Daily Brief. It's built for people who want the big stories fast and clear. Think 20 minutes in the morning, then a quick 10 minute update in the afternoon. Just focused coverage of the developments shaping the world right now, from the Middle east and Venezuela to China, Russia and beyond, with an emphasis on what actually has real world consequences for the United States. The show's hosted by Mike Baker, a veteran of the CIA with decades of first hand experience. So you're getting smart analysis from somebody who's been inside the scene system. You get straightforward context to help you understand what's happening and why it matters. Follow the President's Daily Brief wherever you get your podcasts and stay ahead of the curve. This episode is sponsored in part by Little Sleepies. If you got kids, you already know the truth. Bedtime can turn onto a full on negotiation, but one thing that's been a reliable win in our house is Little Sleepy's Pajamas were fans of Little Sleepies for years before they even sponsored the show. Jen fell hard for for the adorable prince, grabbed a couple pairs and then it basically spiraled from there. Now I got a whole drawer full of them. The kids have the cutest matching sets. And yes, we've even gone full family matching pajamas. Kind of fun. Not gonna lie. And the fabric is the real deal. Ridiculously soft, super stretchy. The kids like wearing them, which means fewer complaints when it's time to change. Plus, we've had ours for years and I can say with confidence, these things hold up. That matters when you're buying kid clothes that get worn constantly and washed because, you know, lots of stuff gets on those clothes. I'll leave it right there. And they also make a great gift. The prints are adorable, the sizing is easy. Parents are always happy to get something cozy that'll actually get used.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is sponsored in part by Something you should Know Podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. Time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here. Just in a fast, focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently they've covered things like why we care so much, what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should Know has been featured in Apple's Shows We Love and it's got thousands of five star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that, I want to understand how people in the world really work itch. Search for Something you should know. Wherever you get your podcasts, look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.