1310: Sick Mom Needs Me — But So Does My Family | Feedback Friday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show — Episode 1310: Sick Mom Needs Me — But So Does My Family | Feedback Friday
Release Date: April 10, 2026
Hosts: Jordan Harbinger & Gabriel Mizrahi

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Episode Overview

This Feedback Friday dives deep into tough listener dilemmas related to family responsibilities, boundaries, difficult business partnerships, and marriage dysfunction. The main theme explored is the conflict between supporting struggling parents and prioritizing one’s own nuclear family. Throughout, Jordan and Gabe provide practical, empathetic advice, share personal anecdotes, and banter with their characteristic blend of humor and candor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Question: Supporting an Ill, Financially Unstable Mom While Expecting a Baby

Timestamps: 10:33–34:08 (Main letter and discussion)

• The Situation:
  A listener and his wife (both in their late 20s, expecting their first baby) are repeatedly the fallback for family members struggling financially. Currently, his mother—who is battling cancer, socially isolated, has little financial savvy, and is not actively working to improve her situation—lives with them. The listener feels responsible yet deeply conflicted as the arrangement strains his marriage and soon-to-expand household.

• Discussion of Patterns:

  • Jordan and Gabe note how the listener has become "the one responsible person in the entire family," prompting other family members (including his brother and mother) to rely on his stability (12:58–18:43).
  • There’s identification of a long-standing role: “The guilt you’re feeling. Yeah, it’s... a symptom of rewriting an old pattern.” (19:51–20:44).

• Mom’s Depression and Passivity:

  • Gabe suspects the listener’s mother displays symptoms of depression and a lack of emotional fight—in part a result of her illness, but also a possible long-term pattern. The son has not only been a financial support but also an emotional one (20:16–21:33).

• Defining Real Support & Boundaries:

  • The hosts challenge the listener’s belief that “anything less than total caretaking feels like desertion”:

    “His definition of support... it’s a little bit miscalibrated.” — Jordan (21:49)

  • They encourage him to distinguish between supporting without abandoning and supporting at the cost of sacrificing his own family’s well-being.

• Specific Advice:

  • Set a clear, kind boundary: Have a loving, direct conversation with mom that establishes a move-out timeline (e.g., before the baby arrives), helps her seek alternate housing, and makes clear that staying indefinitely isn’t viable.
  • Enlist community resources: Tap into social workers, nonprofits, religious groups, and oncology departments for housing and support (24:03–25:02).
  • Consider quid pro quo if she stays: Explore options for her to contribute by helping with childcare, but set specific timeframes and duties (28:54–31:24).
  • Monitor but don’t enable: He may need to take a partial role in managing his mom’s finances, but not at the cost of his independence.

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “She’s expecting her son to save her because she won’t take basic care of herself, and because he continues to save her, she has no motivation to improve at all.” — Jordan (28:00)
  • “Babies are so financially irresponsible. When are they going to get their shit together?” — Jordan (16:12)

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2. Listener Question: Running a Business with an Avoidant, ChatGPT-Dependent Mom

Timestamps: 35:38–48:50

• The Situation:
  A massage therapist co-owns a business with her mom, who’s newly overwhelmed after they transitioned to an employee-based model. Mom avoids tough conversations, leans on ChatGPT for “wisdom” (often parroting back buzzwords), and can't tolerate business problem-solving, stalling progress.

• Mom’s Avoidance & Leadership Anxiety:

  • The avoidance is both emotional (“needs us to stop talking”) and philosophical (“doesn’t want us to ‘control’ employees”); Jordan and Gabe view this not as an AI issue, but as a deep inability to tolerate conflict, manage stress, or wield appropriate authority.
  • Gabe: “I think she’s so afraid of managing people and being in charge that she’s trying to wriggle out of this and find cute buzzwords...” (43:06–43:17)

• Language & Banter:

  • Entertaining digression on “wiggle vs. wriggle” and “tetchy,” illustrating their accessible style.

• Advice & Practical Steps:

  • Try an open, curious conversation: Address how their partnership isn’t working, what each notices, and what both need to be better collaborators (46:42–47:06).
  • Challenge to Mom: “My intention is not to overwhelm you, but when you get overwhelmed and pull away, we stop talking and don’t make any progress.” (47:06–47:25)
  • Prepare for possible business separation: If the pattern continues, consider whether the partnership should continue—perhaps buy out mom, let her buy you out, or start fresh.

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “If I had to listen to my avoidant and frazzled mom use words like ‘steward’ and ‘metabolize’ in meetings, and then just go off for three weeks and avoid discussions... I would be pulling my freaking hair out.” — Jordan (41:58)

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3. Listener Feedback: Did Gender Dynamics Influence Earlier Advice?

Timestamps: 52:11–59:39

• The Situation:
  A listener critiques how Jordan and Gabe handled a previous letter involving a daughter-in-law (Ellie) taking advantage of her mother-in-law, suggesting perhaps Peter (the son/husband) is more to blame, and that subtle misogyny may have colored interpretation.

• Hosts’ Response:

  • They readily consider her perspective, acknowledging that podcast advice can be limited by the available facts and that they “constantly obsess” over being fair and balanced.
  • Both question whether they overlooked the husband’s accountability but maintain that in complex family dynamics, blame rarely rests solely with one person.

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “It can be easier to point the finger at a woman when it comes to childcare than at a man who’s at work during the day.” — Jordan (55:27)
  • “For me, the biggest takeaway is we have to keep wondering about these people’s reasons for doing what they do, even when they’re doing something wrong.” — Jordan (59:33)

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4. Listener Letter: Surviving (and Leaving) an Abusive, Trauma-Laden Marriage

Timestamps: 62:20–80:33

• The Situation:
  After two decades in a marriage defined by his wife’s violence, infidelity, manipulation, and severe trauma, a listener is preparing for an inevitable divorce as their children become independent. He asks for practical (non-therapy) steps to protect himself during separation.

• Hosts’ Observations:

  • The wife’s traumatic history has contributed to her severe dysfunction, yet the listener has also enabled and shaped these dynamics by isolating himself from family and abdicating control.
  • Abuse has shifted from physical to emotional, with his wife now controlling finances and weaponizing suicide threats.

• Advice:

  • Secure legal counsel: Anticipate a messy divorce; start consultations and documentation now.
  • Ensure financial protection: Gather evidence, prepare contingency accounts and independent access to funds, with proper legal guidance (74:41–76:58).
  • Rebuild relationships: Begin reconnecting with estranged family and community for crucial support.
  • Have honest conversations with adult children: Allow them to discuss the family’s history for mutual healing (79:34–80:33).

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “This is a version of digging the well before you get thirsty. Emotionally thirsty, totally psycho-spiritually parched.” — Gabriel (74:38)
  • “No one deserves to go through what you’ve been through.” — Jordan (70:27)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “She’s outsourcing the most basic responsibilities to him... behavior I would expect from a preteen.”—Jordan (22:09)
• “Resentment, frustration, stress—so it’s like, which bad feelings do you want to feel?” —Jordan (26:39)
• “Don’t work with family. I’m not trying to shame you here—it’s just, this would be hard with any business partner. With a parent, 50 times harder.” —Jordan (40:08)
• “If you draw a boundary, she might bristle at it, you feel like a bad son, you cave, and then the situation just continues.” —Gabriel (25:59)
• “The housing is almost the least of it. What’s really at stake here...is your independence, your identity, your new family.” —Jordan (31:34)

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Light Moments & Banter

• Amusing asides about “walk-in closet sex,” the definition of “parasites” for babies, and running a business with parents (“Blah, blah, blah, something about leading a horse to water and drinking”).
• Linguistic digressions: “wiggle vs. wriggle,” “tetchy vs. touchy.”
• Frequent running jokes about office supplies, Spotify comments, and “ChatGPT therapy.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 10:33–34:08| Main listener dilemma: Mom vs. new family, boundary setting | | 35:38–48:50| Co-owning a business with a conflict-averse, AI-advice-seeking mom | | 52:11–59:39| Listener pushes back on prior advice—gender, blame, and empathy | | 62:20–80:33| Preparing for a long-overdue divorce from a manipulative spouse |

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Episode Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, empathetic, and mixes practical psychology with sharp (sometimes irreverent) humor. Jordan and Gabe use compassion for all sides, gently challenge assumptions, and inject their signature banter—even amidst serious discussion.

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Summary Takeaways

• Healthy boundaries are vital, even—and especially—when family members are ill or struggling.
• The pattern of over-functioning for dysfunctional relatives is hard to break, but necessary to protect one’s own family and future.
• Parental trauma often perpetuates cycles of dysfunction, but those cycles can be interrupted with support, tough love, and sometimes professional intervention.
• Working with family (in business or at home) demands self-awareness, clear roles, and tough conversations.
• Practical divorce prep includes not just emotional readiness, but legal, financial, and social groundwork—especially when manipulation has been chronic.

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For listeners new to the show, this episode provides a comprehensive, real-world look at complex family boundaries, self-care versus guilt, and the layers of navigating toxic relationships—with laughter never too far behind.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Grab that boho, look for that rooftop

[Jordan Harbinger]

dinner, those sandals that can keep up

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

with you and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling. Ross, Work your magic.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Back Friday producer the industrial binder clip helping me hold these stacks of life drama together and occasionally cutting off circulation to my fingertips when I get bored. Y' all know you did that in school too. Gabriel Mizrahi on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Money laundering experts, Russian spies, cold case homicide investigators. This week we had hacker slash musician slash technologist I believe is the term we're using. Ben Jordan. We talked about AI cameras that are being deployed all over the United States. And these cameras, they scan your license plates. They essentially track our movements and the data is blended with consumer data and it really can paint a picture that is not very anonymous of everything that we do. It's pretty invasive technology and pretty fascinating as well. And these things, your tax dollars are paying for this, which is even crazier. We basically talked about this new normal in which we are just constantly observed wherever we and how this is being used and misused by law enforcement, hackers, rogue states, other nation states, etc. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on water filters. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites and compare Gabe and my dynamic to various mundane office supplies. I guess also I am still sick as you can clearly hear. You know what's crazy? I did the math because I have nothing else to do, because I can't do anything. I've been sick the majority of 20, 26. I'm a guy that used to get sick, like, once every two to three years. And when I would get sick, I'd be like, oh, that's weird. I'm sick. And then, like, three days later, I'd be like, oh, okay, it wasn't that bad. Now I got sick in December, and it was some kind of kid cold that just took me out. And Jen got sick, too. She got better. And it took me forever to get better. Like, forever. I had a crazy sinus infection. I had to get antibiotics and everything. I'm prone to sinus infections, but I rarely get them. Then I fly to Saudi Arabia. I'm fine. I heal up. I fly back. Because that trip got aborted. You heard that before. And then I come back and my daughter's like, I don't feel so good. I'm like, okay. My kids, my son, same thing. They're sick for, like, 24 hours. Me and Jen get really sick. She gets sick before me, and I'm like, oh, I hope I avoid that. And about, I don't know, four days later, I'm like, I did not avoid that. And so I've got the same thing. Like, at least the same symptoms. I've got crazy amounts of stuff in my lungs. Crazy amounts of stuff. And I'm like, is this Covid or what? But I test it. I mean, I have an expired COVID test, which maybe isn't the most accurate thing because it's, like, two years out of date. But I tested for that. Nothing came up. So I'm like, is this the flu? Because my stomach is fine. I just have, like, slamming headaches, sinus infection, fever, and, yeah, it sucks. What's weird is I can work out. I can, like, eat. I have an appetite. That has not changed at all. I just feel crappy. And, yeah, it's been the majority of this year. It's such a weird thing. I'm not stressed out. I sleep fine. Like, I don't get it. How is this happening?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It must just be the petri dish of having children.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think it's just having kids, bringing home five different viruses, and then they get over it in 48 hours. And me and Jen are like, oh, my God, everything at once. So, yeah, so much for antibiotics slash, sleeping it off. Not working for me. Speaking of industrial clips, I got an interesting Spotify comment On the Abigail Marsh episode on psychopathy and altruism episodes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

1292 in 1293, by the way. Super interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. I actually read all those Spotify comments and I often respond. So this listener, Evil Double Z, wrote, research on the charitability of America can be misleading because some researchers count tithing giving money to a church as charity. It's not. Turns out if you remove that data from the pool, the US ranks rather low. Jordan, the fact that there are so many kids going without food and medicine means America is an awful place. I never really heard much about this tithing thing. I know next to nothing about how charitable giving gets calculated in these studies. So I shared this with Abigail and I was like, oh, yeah, maybe this person has a point. She had a really interesting response. Gabe, you want to read that for us?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sure. So she said, first, the US is a more generous welfare state than most people realize, even if it's a weird and inefficient patchwork. And at the individual level, there is not a close association between political orientation and how generous people are. Liberals and conservatives show different patterns of giving, but are roughly equally generous. That was news to me as well, Jordan. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, because I assumed the people who don't think exactly like me were all miserly, miserable, terrible people.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But okay, doesn't matter what side you're on. Just the other side's worse.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm saying both sides. Just if their opinion is different than mine, it makes them a bad person. That's what I've been told.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right. They're horrible people. Exactly right. Helps to not be on any side. And then everybody's the worst. And you are, too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. Everybody's the worst. That's what my Spotify comments are like right now. I used to love you until you disagreed with me on this very point that I love to make. That isn't even what you or your guests said on the show about Iran. Okay, unsubscribe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So she goes on. And lots of data sources point to Americans being on the high end of the generosity spectrum. If you look across countries, rarely the very top, but always close to the top, and across all different kinds of data, here are two. America is number eight most generous. If you look across seven different kinds of altruism. In our research, after New Zealand, the uk, Netherlands and a few others, among other things, we looked at the five year running average of charitable giving, volunteering and helping strangers, which is part of the World Giving Index, where we are consistently near the Top yes, we are a religious country, so we do give a lot of our charitable donations to religious organizations. And reasonable people can disagree about how that differs from other kinds of charitable giving. For example, Utah has historically been predominantly Mormon, and Mormons are prolific tithers. But historically, Utahns also donate by far the most kidneys to strangers per capita, suggesting these are not unrelated choices. But we are generous even when you use measures that don't rely on that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I thought that was a thoughtful take on this topic and thankfully backed up by real data. My gut response to that comment was that that listener had an ax to grind with America. In fact, I noticed that actually in Spotify comments specifically that a lot of the comments there are anti US or anti US policy or something like that, and they're much more. Is vitriol the right word? They're much more aggressive and vitriolic. Yeah. Than anything I see in my email inbox. And I think it's because it's easy to leave a Spotify comment and you can be like, yeah, my name is bum runner6 instead of like writing me from your email address, that's your name. And then you know, you know I'm going to reply to you at some point and be like, hey, none of these are facts. Anyway, I also vaguely assumed America was not the most giving country, given how much you hear in the news about income inequality and the wealth gap and selfish billionaires, blah blah blah. I mean, all that stuff can also be true. But Abby's research paints a very different picture. I know it's hard to measure this stuff, but it's great to know that even in America, this great sandbox of dog eat dog capitalism, there are decent folks helping other people in so many different ways. And look, I'm not saying that in a ra, yay, America's perfect kind of way. I'm more of a let's just be accurate and look at the data kind of guy. So big thank you to Abigail for that. Also, one quick thing before we kick off. A couple weeks ago we did some sponsored content with Bjorn Eckerberg on Red Light Therapy. Some of you guys had mixed feelings about it. I was actually expecting way more negative comments about this. People really actually quite enjoyed it. Sponsored Content Basically, for those who don't know, that's where I sell a little tiny bit of my soul for a bucket of cash. Again, a bit of my soul, not the whole thing. Nobody has had the budget for that so far, unfortunately, fortunately. But what it does, because people are like, oh man, you're Just making whole episodes that are ads now. Yeah, that's the idea. Because I can keep the ad load on regular shows lower because of that. So instead of having 12 ads or 10 ads in a show, like literally most podcasts on most networks do, I can go, you know what? I'm going to keep it at whatever it is, like six. And then the ones at the end, which I assume no one listens to unless you're, like, driving and can't switch the show. I can keep it low. I don't have to do more. I don't have to shove things in that interrupt conversation because some company is going to be like, hey, we want to have our CEO on and talk about something. Now. Some people said, hey, I'm skipping that. That's totally fine. In fact, that's why in the first five seconds of the episode, I say, hey, this is sponsored content. It's not the same sort of rigorous deep dive into a topic. The idea is, if you're not interested in that, you can skip it. I want to tell you up front so you don't figure it out 20 minutes in and feel duped. Most people actually said, hey, I like this. That's cool that this company sponsored you. I wanted to hear about this. And furthermore, don't worry. It's not like every week there's going to be a sponsored episode. Don't pan about that. You're not gonna have to screen every episode. Is this sponsored? It's gonna be marked as such. I mean, look, I'd love to have that every week. And then I could record this show from a fancy yacht, and then I can invite all of you to come on and hang out with me on it. But alas, it's just a sort of occasional thing for now, and it's always gonna be clearly marked. And again, I was pleasantly surprised at how many people really dug that kind of thing. So that means we're. We're getting it at least partially right. Okay. As always, we've got fun ones. We got doozies. I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I are both in our late 20s. In October 2023, we managed to scrape together enough money to buy our first home together. Since then, I've repeatedly found myself becoming the fallback plan for family members who can't seem to plan well financially. I've straight up said no to a few people, but I haven't said no to every person who's Asked.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's tricky. Why'd you give cousin Jeremy money and not me? Well, he's not a moron. Well, okay, fine, he's a moron, but you're an even bigger moron. I gotta draw the line somewhere.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, cousin and Jeremy's just funnier. I don't know. And he has better weed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, exactly. Like, awkward. But here's the real issue. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

For example, in summer 2024, my brother moved in with us for what was supposed to be a week and ended up staying nearly three months.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We only allowed this because he seemed like he was trying to do better for himself until he simply stopped working and stopped trying altogether. He sat in my living room and played video games for almost a month before we made the decision to kick him out. But the night we were going to give him the news on a time frame, his baby was born and he left on his own.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my gosh. You're lucky. That resolved itself. But how stressful. And also not cool. Imagine, Gabe. The Gall. The gall.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The gall. That is exactly the word that just came to mind. I cannot imagine moving into someone's home for a week, supposedly, and then staying for three months and playing Grand Theft Auto in the living room instead of searching for apartments on west side Rentals. What are you doing, dude?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is shameless. The point, like, I'm having secondhand embarrassment. I would be losing so much sleep over this. I would not. I would sleep in the backyard before I would sit on this man's couch and play video games.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I am with you on. I mean, I guess maybe he's like, I'm his brother. It's okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm entitled to this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Even if it's your brother. Maybe. But even if you're somebody's close relative. Yeah. I would not be able to even sleep comfortably. I would just feel too bad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I guess he was just escaping what sounds like a very stressful life. But it sounds like. Like he said he just gave up. That is just a level of squatting, freeloading that is hard for me to wrap my head around it in any way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And now he's a dad I want. So I wonder where he. Where did he go? I'm confused.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I have a feeling he just shacked up with the mother. Where was the mother?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But where was she? Yeah. Either way, he clearly had another option the whole time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, yeah, it's like, oh, I guess I could live with the woman who's having my child, but. Ugh, that sounds terrible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She doesn't like Grand Theft Auto.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, no, man, the Xbox is right here. That makes me just like, why does he need to move in with our friend here if he had another option the whole time? What a weird situation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Now, as of fall of 2025, so for about six months, my mother is living with us again due to poor planning and money issues. I say again because this isn't the first time I've had to house my mom for similar reasons.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dude, you need to move to China. China. None of these people stop asking you for a couch to crash on, for God's sake.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's so funny. Can I crash on your couch? Oh, yeah, totally. No. You know, the thing is though, it's in Guangdong now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah. Hey, look, no pro. If you're looking for jobs in Hunan, you can totally crash with me. I got you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Even before we owned a home, we had to move her into our first apartment, a 600 square foot studio, because she got evicted and had nowhere to go. Oh, boy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's sad. And stressful also. Wow, 600 square foot.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was going to say. Which part is more stressful? Getting evicted knowing your mom has gotten evicted, or living with your mom in a 600 square foot shoebox? I lived in one that was about that size and there was. I couldn't have a house guest for more than a day.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, no kidding. Unless they sleep on top of you. Maybe that's the idea. Well, both. Look, getting evicted later in life is crazy. I've been evicted before when I was in my early 20s and it was like a business thing. I had like rented this place for people who worked at my old company and like, you know, we just like, bit off more than we could choose. Surprise, surprise. And yeah, it's scary because, like, you're getting kicked out of the place where you live. Luckily, I had another place where I actually lived, but still. Yikes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I couldn't leave my mother homeless, so I told her to stay with us. And she did for a couple of months. Until one day when I asked her how much she had saved, her response, nothing. After that, we got her to save some money and we helped her move into her own apartment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't want to jump the gun here, but I am angry. So she could save money. She's living with you in a 600 square foot apartment. She just didn't bother doing it. Just like the brothers. So these people, they have options. It's just somehow easier to ask our friend here to house them because he was the only responsible person in the entire family and bought a house and actually pays his frickin bills.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But this time the situation has gotten a bit more complicated. For one, my wife and I are expecting our first baby who's due in about six months. We seriously couldn't be more excited about this since we'd been trying for some time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Amazing. Wow. Congratulations, man. I assume like that couple from last. Last week you guys conceived while your mom ate a Hot Pocket and watched Love island three meters away from you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You know what, Jordan? You're joking, but I'm just thinking about the math. She's been living with them for six months. Baby is due in six months.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yep. That was some walk in closet sex.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Thank God it wasn't the 600 square foot apartment that you guys conceived in. At least you have a little room this time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No. Well, 30 of the square feet. Was that walk in closet? Maybe. I don't know. That was some bathroom sex. I have a feeling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow. Okay, so now they have another freeloader. I assume the baby is crashing in her womb because it got evicted from the last one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Babies are so financially irresponsible. When are they going to get their shit together?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Never. Famously entitled.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Famously entitled. Yeah. Paris. Literal parasites.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The other major complicating factor is that my mother has been battling cancer for several years.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh boy. Ye old plot thickeneth.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I love my mom and empathize deeply with her illness. I've shown up for her in ways I never thought I'd have to because of it. She's a good person and we have a good relationship, but I also feel the strain this situation is putting on my marriage and my ability to focus on my growing family. The thing is, she can care for herself and live on her own. She doesn't make a lot of money, but when we suggest she work elsewhere, she says she feels stuck because her insurance from work is paying for the treatments and doctor visits, which I completely understand. But she also doesn't try to better the situation by gunning for a promotion, working a side job or anything like that. She works her 36 hours per week, comes home and hides out in her room most of the time. If my wife and I didn't cook at home most nights, she would literally just go to bed hungry. All of this makes us feel a little like she has no fight left in her. Fortunately, she's put on some more weight since moving in with us and she's gone for walks the past couple of days. So maybe there's a glimmer of hope there. Only time will tell, but I don't know her to be someone who sticks with things long term when they're uncomfortable caring for her is essentially all on me. The brother I mentioned bounces from job to job and has been evicted. My other brother is currently in prison. My aunt lives out of state, and my mom's not close with any other family. She's also been somewhat of a recluse since we all grew up and left home, so she doesn't have many friends either. We desperately want to reclaim our home and our privacy, but I'm struggling with how to tell my mom that we can't have her living with us long term. I'm torn between guilt and responsibility. Then recently her doctor said that he believes the tumor has gotten a little smaller. If our living situation has contributed to her getting better somehow, I don't know how I could possibly ask her to find other living arrangements. I feel bad for even feeling this way to begin with. How do I set a boundary with a parent who is seriously ill without feeling like I'm abandoning her or blowing up my family relationships? Signed in over my head trying to keep my mom fed and in a bed when she can't manage her bread. And I'm trying to build my own life instead.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh man. Very tough situation, very tricky. I really feel for you here. So first of all, congratulations on buying your own home, on building your own life, and now on the baby. That is super exciting. The sense I'm getting from your letter is that you've managed to do what the rest of your family can't become stable, keep a roof over your head, build a steady, connected, successful life. It's very impressive, man. Not a lot of people can create enough escape velocity from situations like this, but you did, and I'm so proud of you for that. This is reminds me a little bit of my mom. You know, she had like a craptacular kind of family situation as well. Similar in some ways. Second, I'm so sorry about your mom. Going through cancer just sucks. It sounds like she's handling treatment relatively well. I'm very happy to hear that she's getting better, but it's a really sad thing to watch a parent go through. And I'm sorry that it's pulling focus from the life that you want to build. Life is indeed crazy, man. I'm also sorry that your mom struggles to take care of herself on her own. I'm touched you guys have such a good relationship and I understand that she's not a bad person, but she is putting you guys in a very tough situation. She's making all of this harder. That sucks too. I also have a strong suspicion that taking care of your family has been your role for a long time, even before buying the house. And so thinking about taking a new stance with them just feels very strange. The guilt you're feeling. Yeah, it's partly a very normal reaction to not stepping in and saving people you love. But I suspect it's also a symptom of rewriting an old pattern. Feeling like you're ditching someone who's looked to you to save her and prop her up for a very long time.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, for sure. I also wonder if his mom might be kind of depressed right now. That's the vibe I'm getting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I get that vibe. I mean, he said it seems like there's no fight left in her. She just goes in her room and would go to bed hungry if they weren't feeding her. I mean, that's not a happy person.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The not trying to better her situation, the hiding out, the going to bed hungry, the not tending to her relationships, just the general passivity. They do sound like signs of depression. Now, being depressed when you're going through cancer and struggling financially is not uncommon. Very understandable. But I also get the sense that mom has probably been depressed or depressive even before the diagnosis. And what's interesting about that is if that's true, then our friend here probably hasn't just propped his mom up financially, he's probably propped her up emotionally. It is very common for children to feel like it's on them to keep their parents mood up, I think especially their mother's mood up, to keep them engaged with life even if they don't realize it. So I wonder if that's where a lot of this guilt is coming from. It's not just about making sure she doesn't become homeless, which of course is a very real concern. It might also be about withdrawing that fundamental life energy from a parent who really struggles to maintain it on her own.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. That basic desire to live and to

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

live well is a template that. That goes back a very long way for most people. And it can be really, really painful to put down.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, that's why he's worried about abandoning her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or like he said, feeling like he's abandoning her. I don't know if he is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. Anything less than saving her and doing what she wants, that feels like he's fundamentally failing her, which is interesting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. So maybe we need to talk about what abandoning means.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Agree. Cause I think his definition of support is it's a little bit Miscalibrated.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Anything less than, like, total caretaking feels like desertion.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, exactly. And meanwhile, she's actually the one who's putting him in this position.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Totally. I think you could make the opposite case. I think you could argue that his mom is abandoning herself, but he's taking it on him.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I agree with that. And then she's making it his problem, basically outsourcing the most basic responsibilities to him. I mean, think about it, Gabe. We have a few things we kind of have to do as humans, Right. We've got to work so that we can provide for ourselves food and shelter. And she's like, fine, I'll go and do the work thing and do the bare minimum, but I'm not gonna handle the food and shelter part. Wow. Okay. This is behavior I would kind of expect from a preteen. It's strange. To me. Anyway, so I'm a little torn here. If his mom were an awful person, if there were a bunch of other people who could help her, I'd feel more comfortable telling him to tell her, hey, sorry, mom, you gotta figure this out. But she's a decent person. They have a good relationship. She's clearly struggling.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But then he's also starting his own family, wants his home back. I mean, look, if she were very old, very sick, could not live on her own, different. But she can totally live on her own. And she's not, to your point, holding up her end of the bargain here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Cancer notwithstanding, that is not okay. So here's my feeling about all this. I think you need to find a middle way here. And that middle way, it needs to help your mom get through this chapter, and it needs to move you closer to prioritizing yourself and your family. You guys are stepping into a new life phase. It's a beautiful life phase. It's not really healthy or appropriate to be living with your mom if you don't absolutely have to. I think the question you need to ask yourself is, what is a fair role, a sustainable role that you can play in your mom's life without compromising your sanity and your family? Because there's a lot you can do for your mom. You can help her navigate housing, treatment, doctor's appointments, logistics. You can help stabilize her finances again. You can help her find another apartment. You can try to recruit some support so this doesn't all fall on you. If money is super tight, you can look into housing programs for people with medical conditions or income based housing. You can encourage your mom to rebuild ties with some other friends or family who can share the load. There are community groups, religious support networks. There are nonprofits dedicated to helping sick people manage their finances better. A lot of oncology departments, they have social workers and patient resource coordinators who are plugged into good options. And, of course, you can still help her coordinate her care. You can advocate for her with her doctors. You can provide emotional support, all within reason. So there's still a lot you can and should do to help your mom without turning your home into an open flop house. And the way I'd communicate this is I'd sit down with your mom. You could do this with your wife if it's helpful, or just one on one. And I would say, mom, we love you. We want to support you through your treatment. We're so happy that you're getting better. You're not alone in this. But with the baby coming, our home is going to need to just be the three of us. So we need to work together over the next few months to figure out a permanent living situation for you. Your health is trending in the right direction. The baby's due in three months. Let's set a date for us to find you a new home and get you set up. I'll still be involved. I'll still be close. I still love you. And you have a place to live until we find an apartment. You don't have to worry about that. But it's time to find a solution that works for all of us.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nice. I like that a lot.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then I would have the larger conversation about what she's been asking you to do for her, what you're going to need from her to make this work, Namely, basic financial responsibility. I know it's hard to imagine saying this to your mom, but I feel like she needs to understand the position she's put you in, the ways in which she's just not holding up her end of the bargain. Now, given the history here, she might not go, oh, a boundary. I love boundaries. I love hearing that. I'm not holding up my end of the bargain. And I won't be able to squat with my son indefinitely. Totally respect that. So I'd be prepared for any number of responses from her when you have this conversation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Good point. And if you get a negative one, I would try to stay neutral. Loving still, but neutral. And I wouldn't walk things back or capitulate immediately to make everything better. You can say, okay, I see this is really hard. I know it brings up some uncertainty. Nobody is leaving you on your own. We are going to figure this out together. I'm just asking for an equal partner here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The together piece is big. I think she needs to step up here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. And then I would be very vigilant about what that brings up in you. The guilt that you talked about, sadness, whatever it is, because that's part of the dance between you and your mom. She asks or demands, implicitly or explicitly, you feel guilty. You accommodate her. If you draw a boundary, she might bristle at it. You feel like a bad son, and then you cave, and then the situation just continues. If you want to rewrite this pattern without feeling like a bad son, like you said, you have to notice how these feelings arise in you, and then you really have to be willing to feel them capitulating to your mom. Yes. Part of that is a genuine desire to care for her, of course, and that's very kind. But part of that is also probably a way to not have to feel these feelings at all.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. But what's interesting is then he feels other feelings. Resentment, frustration, stress. So it's like, which bad feelings do you want to feel?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, it's a good question. Because he's accepting the unpleasant feelings over here because they feel safer and more acceptable than the unpleasant ones over there. And by over there, I mean the ones closer to mom, the ones that

[Jordan Harbinger]

might provoke her, might disappoint her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, he'd rather carry that than have to bear her response.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So I hear all that, and I agree. And I'm genuinely worried about his mom's money situation. Let's remember that our friend moved her into his studio apartment once before because she got evicted. She straight up didn't save enough money to pay the rent. And then when she moved in, she didn't save any money until he was like, hey, I'm getting involved and you are saving money. So my fear is, even if he manages to get her into a new place, how does he prevent this from happening again? I'm with you. He can't be his mom's savior over and over forever, especially if it's not even really necessary. But if she's not able to take care of herself in this way, is

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

it kind of necessary?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, I'm kind of worried that it might be.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would say there are solutions there, too. Maybe he needs to get more involved in her finances. Maybe he needs to monitor her bank accounts, cut the rent, check himself each month. Maybe he needs to collaborate with his brother or his aunt or his wife and tag team mom's money situation. So it's not all on him. There Are options.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay. Yeah. That's kind of a relief. There's a middle ground here. I'm just worried about this woman. I feel like she's expecting her son to save her. Because she won't take basic care of herself. And because he continues to save her, she just has no motivation to improve at all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But that's exactly it. If he stops this pattern, she might be forced to take care of herself in the best way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

True. And then there might be a transitional period where he supports her from afar until she can figure out how to do this on her own.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, he's late 20s, right? So she's probably what, in her 50s? Early 60s? Or who knows, maybe. Maybe even late 40s. I mean, she's not 70, 80, 90 years old. I keep picturing this frail old woman with cancer who can't keep track of her bank of America card. But then I remember that that actually is not the case.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, you know, that's a good point. But even if she can handle this better, if she's just inept and that won't change, Then he's going to have to be involved to some degree.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To some degree? The degree is where the boundary comes in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Look, another idea occurring to me here. You're about to have a baby. I'm sure you know that that's going to be very full on for a while. So if your mom can't afford her own place, if she needs to stay with you for a while, what if you told her, look, mom, we could use some help with the baby for the next year or two years, or, I don't know, six months, whatever. You pick a reasonable timeframe. So if you're gonna stay here, we'd like to ask you to pitch in for a couple hours a night. Watch the baby, help with dinner, whatever it is you guys could use help with. I know that might sound kind of quid pro quo. It is quid pro quo. She is straight up expecting you to give her free plays with free food, free rent, whatever. At least this way the arrangement becomes fairer to you guys and she feels more of a sense of purpose being there. But you need to make the time frame and expectations very clear. Once Naomi turns one or two or whatever, we find you your own place. And you are on the hook for two hours every weekday night. And four hours every weekend or whatever. Or every day on the weekend, whatever it is. And you just. You can't hole up in your bedroom and watch Virgin river every night and come out for food and go back in. We need you involved.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It is interesting because it is quid pro quo, but like you said, she's already made this somewhat transactional, so. Yeah, maybe fair is fair. This is a clever solution to this. It does sound like a win win to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. I mean, look, a couple hours of babysitting a night is like, let's say it's 30 bucks an hour, which is, I don't know, probably a decent wage. Where he lives, that's pretty good in exchange for food and a place to sleep, you know, and then four hours on the weekend, it's like, okay, well we're talking about 120. But I mean, this is like a person earning enough money to be tolerated, I guess. And look, he might not want her there at all, but if she has to be there, this feels like the best arrangement. And candidly, I'm a little disappointed that his mom didn't bring this up herself. Yeah, this would be a different story if she was like, look, I know I'm imposing on you. I know this is a lot to ask. I really want to find ways of being helpful to you. Let me help with the baby. Instead of being like, oh, I didn't save any money, I just figured I would mooch off you indefinitely. I mean, Gabe, I'm imagining he's like, how much have you saved? And she's just like a teenager who's wasted all their money on what do kids buy now? Yu Gi oh, cards. Like, she just looks down and is like, nothing. Like, oh, I was hoping you would just never ask and the consequences of this would just never come to bite me in the ass. It's like insanity. Like the brother, no self awareness, slash, doesn't care enough about other people to be like, yeah, I'm freeloading. I should do something about that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's a whole other part of his letter is that this seems to be a pattern in the family. This is the family way. But you know what else I'm thinking about? I wonder how his wife feels about all this. I have to assume that she is not a happy camper.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No way this is going to be a problem in their marriage if they don't figure this out, which I think he probably knows already. So I'm sorry you're in this position, bud. I know it's really hard, but this is also a great opportunity to find a new way with your mom, with your entire family. I want to say something that might sound a little mean. It's not my intention, I promise, but the picture you've painted here I get the sense your mom is a bit of a mess, and I'm sure her parenting played a big role in your brother's outcomes. You seem to have charted a very different path, which, like I said, is hugely impressive and beautiful. And I feel it's very important for you to protect this life you've built and not allow your family to drag you down. I'm not telling you to disown them. I'm not saying you shouldn't help them appropriately where you can. But the housing is almost the least of it. What's really at stake here, I think, is your independence, your identity, your momentum, your new family, all of which need to be your top priority. So my strong advice is to keep your eye firmly on those things and trust that you're not a bad person for not wanting to compromise them in order to save people who cannot or simply will not save themselves. Sending you, your mom, your wife, and your new baby a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know who else wants to live with you rent free, if not in your home, then at least in your head. The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank. And you know what? It's about time. Because if you've ever dealt with old school banks, you know the drill. Random fees, overdraft charges, minimum balances. It's like they're rooting for you to mess up so they can charge you for it. Chime flips that it's fee free. Smarter banking built for you, not the 1% you can get paid up to two days early with direct deposit. And with MyPay, you can access up to 500 bucks of your paycheck when you need it, not when your bank decides you deserve it. Some traditional banks still don't even offer that. And I like that. Chime helps you move forward. You can build a credit history without the usual stress, earn up to 3% APY on savings, and even get overdraft coverage without the usual punishment. They've also got this new Chime card which lets you build credit using your own money while earning cash back. No annual fees, no interest, no gotchas. That combo usually doesn't exist. My younger self would have really benefited from something like this. As a smarter way to manage your money without feeling like the bank is working against you.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

This episode is also sponsored by CookUnity. CookUnity has been honestly a lifesaver for our family and not just because our schedule gets crazy. We're also helping feed my parents who are in their 80s now and these days they're not really cooking. They're not driving much either. And look, the old solution for that used to be sad TV dinners and whatever frozen mystery tray was on sale, which is kind of bleak when you think about it. What I love about cookunity is now they have actual chef crafted meals delivered right to the door. Something that, well, didn't exist back in their day. If you told my parents years ago that restaurant quality meals made by real chef would show up ready to heat and eat in a few minutes, they would have thought you were describing life on a spaceship or something. That's what makes this so useful. Their meals are fully cooked. They taste great. They don't require shopping, prep or cleanup. It makes life easier for them and gives us a lot of peace of mind too. And there's a ton of variety from Greek herbed meatballs, chicken schnitzel. That's a fun one to say. Blackened salmon, no risk of flavor fatigue. And it feels like real food made by real people who actually care about

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Jordan thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers does keep the lights on. Keeps me flush with decongestant which apparently doesn't work or do anything anyway. All the deals, discounts and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey Jordan and Gabe. For 10 years I've co owned a small massage therapy business, 5050 with my mom. Our massage therapists have recently transitioned from independent contractors to an employee model. My mom and I have worked alongside each other, which created the illusion that we work together well. But truthfully, we were just in silos. Since moving to an employee model, conversations about building an ethical business have been coming up, and my mom and I have different ways of going about that. Namely, I'm noticing that my mom gets overwhelmed easily and struggles to collaborate. She has a strong need for autonomy, is not liking the idea of structure, and doesn't want us to, quote, unquote, control or police other people. I keep telling her that it matters how we wield our power rather than the fact that we have it. Nevertheless, we keep getting into these stalemates. I keep bringing issues up to her, problems I want us to solve with protocols, and my mom keeps getting overwhelmed and needs us to stop talking.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, I'm getting the strong sense that mom is not fit to run a business at all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Having these conversations continually get shelved is making it impossible to make any progress at all on solving the issues that are keeping us stuck to boot. She keeps going to chatgpt and wielding it as an ultimate authority. For example, she'll turn to ChatGPT and then say things to me like, she wants us to quote, unquote, steward instead of manage our employees.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's so annoying. So annoying.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But when I try and talk to her, she totally freezes up and checks out. She's gaining the knowledge, but not living it in action. I don't know how I'm supposed to run this company with her when every conversation needs to be quote, unquote metabolized for days on end, stretching into weeks. I don't know how I'm supposed to take her at her word when her words are coming from a large language model and not her. I brought up joint therapy with her and she said she doesn't think we need it. Blah, blah, blah. Something about leading a horse to water and drinking.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's hilarious. Meaning her mom uses the lead to horse to water metaphor. Or wait, no, she's saying she can't lead her mom to the water. Wait, I don't get it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Unclear. I'm realizing now that she might have just written that for herself as a draft and forgot to throw it in later. Like, what? Whatever.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's funny. I've done that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Whatever it is, is that is kind of hilarious.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I remember doing that on an exam in high school. I wrote something like, et cetera, et cetera. Something Something, something. It was a science exam. And the teacher was like, jordan, come here for a sec. He was also my neighbor and my friend's dad. Thank God. So I walk over there, and I'm like, yeah, Mr. Carney. And he's like, tell me how I can't remember. I was like, tell me how something with precipitation, you know, whatever works. And I was like, oh, da, da, da, da. And he's like, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, no, like, it does this and this and this. And he just kept saying, what do you. You know, Et cetera, et cetera. He was like, messing with me. And I was like, he explain it to me exactly. So I did. And he goes, okay, but here's what you wrote. And it literally was like. And then water evaporates, et cetera, et cetera, becomes a cloud, rains down later, et cetera, et cetera. And he's like, were you expecting me to fill that in for you? Because I've seen that trick before. And I was like, no, that was a placeholder. And he's like, you got to remember to come back to that stuff.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He's drawn X. I love the idea of filling out an exam and writing, like, in brackets, insert correct answer here. Yeah, okay. At least I. I should get some points for at least trying, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hey, here's the part where I don't know how anything works, etc. Etc. Oh, gosh. Anyway, her mom sounds extremely challenging. This would drive me up the wall.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, more like, blah, blah, blah. Something about one person rowing, one person drilling holes in the boat. Am I right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Literally. Blah, blah, blah. 10% off your first month of family therapy with your mom. Betterhelp.com Jordan et cetera, et cetera.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, boy. How do I deal with someone who keeps using ChatGPT for all mental and emotional labor and personal conflicts, in fact, for almost everything signed a massage entrepreneur trying to need. That's K N E A D. The knots out of the system that impedes a way to meet my need. That's N E E D, in case you couldn't see, of which which I have plenty, including trying to run this business at high speed, which is why I will concede that I would love to plead that my mom not use ChatGPT to advise on how to lead when I would love to proceed with running this business as I please.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That was a new one, Gabe. I like that format. Puns and meta rhymes. You Wyland, bro.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's changing up, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

All right, so this is mildly infuriating on so many levels. First of all, I'm very sorry you're struggling to work with your mom and to communicate. There's a reason people say don't work with family. I'm not trying to shame you here. It's just this would be hard with any business partner. I'm sure it's 50 times harder with a parent. And I'm sorry that it's making it impossible to make real progress on solving these problems. The thing is, running a company, it's all solving problems every single day. Big ones, small ones, managing people, taking care of your employees, making sure everything's running properly. If you and your business partner can't even talk about this stuff, I mean, I literally don't understand how you are supposed to run this company together. I can tell you exactly how this dynamic goes, okay? Either you start doing everything yourself because she can't and slash won't, and then you resent her and you guys grow even further apart. Or you continue to tussle and, or avoid each other and the business suffers, maybe even crumbles. Unless something big changes. You would have to change the way you approach her, the way you talk to her, how you frame these things in a way she can partner with you on. Not that I think that's really on you and. Or she would have to learn how to tolerate these conversations long enough to actually find a solution with you. And candidly, based on what you've shared, it sounds like it's more the latter. But I. I wonder what she would say if we could talk to her. It's possible. Just making room for this idea that there's something about the way you talk to your mom that easily overwhelms her. Now, even if that's true, I would still say she needs to be able to tell you, look, I want to find a solution with you, but I'm overwhelmed by the way you're talking to me. I need a different approach. So I'm not letting her off the hook here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's fair. But if she were the kind of person who could just say that, she probably would not be in this position in the first place and she would not probably be trying to get a. A mini part time MBA from the University of chatgpt.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. But you know, look, I'm trying to address all the possibilities here, so I'm actually a little surprised by your question. This is not ultimately about working with a partner who use AI to navigate personal conflicts. Although that is super annoying. And if I had to listen to my avoidant and frazzled mom. Use words like steward and metabolize in meetings and then just go off for three weeks and avoid discussions. I would be pulling my freaking hair out. Really? This is about working with a partner who, based on what you shared, just doesn't have the wherewithal to tolerate conflict, to manage stress, to hang in the tension of a decision, and to consistently collaborate with you on finding solutions and everything that entails. In other words, again, to run a fricking business. Shi. You went.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You did it yourself. You didn't go with the sound bite this week. Nice.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right now.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. And her mom also seems to have very different ideas about what good management looks like in the first place.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. I think you mean stewardship, Gabriel.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, sorry, dude. Stewardship. What? I don't even know what that means.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a corporate buzzword.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The sense I'm getting is that her mom has some real anxiety around power and responsibility in general.

[Jordan Harbinger]

100%.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't think this is philosophical. I think she's so afraid of managing people and being in charge that she's trying to wriggle out of this and find cute buzzwords that make it feel less stressful, which is absurd.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You said wriggle?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, wriggle.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wiggle out of. Wait, hold on. Are these two different words?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wiggle? And yes, I believe they're different words,

[Jordan Harbinger]

so I did not know that. I thought you wiggle out of responsibility.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wiggle out of it?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I thought you wiggle out of responsibilities. But no, it makes sense that these are two different words. Like, now that I think about it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I just looked it up. No, you wiggle, and I think when it's wr, you say wriggle.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, well, that makes sense. So I just thought that wiggle was spelled W. I. No. Why did I think. I guess I never knew how to spell the word wiggle. Okay. Or I thought it was both. I'm not sure. Now I have to examine my brain to figure that. And then also, I thought that was just the same word. You know what? It's funny because I also remember the word tetchy. T, E, T, C, H, Y. I used to think people were just saying touchy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And spelling it weird.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Weird.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or saying it weird?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's hilarious. No, that's a different word. Yeah. From the team that brought you kanaps.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is a little bit less dumb than that, I hope. But, I mean, I bounced off the rock bottom with kanaps.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think I just love that this is part of the family now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Leave Spotify comments about this. Did you know that wiggle and wriggle were two different things or were you kind of like, no, I thought you wiggled out of responsibility too, because now that's a funny visual.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To be fair, they are closely related. Like you wiggle is when you kind of move in place. But when you wriggle, I think it's when you like try to get out of something or avoid something. So they are kind of. They're a Jays, you know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, so back to the actual situation at hand. Why did they move to an employee based model if she doesn't want to manage people? I am so confused. That is the wor. That is a terrible decision.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Was just wondering the same thing. Yeah. Now they got to stay on top of them even more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There's probably reasons for this. Like maybe their state was like, hey, these people are definitely not contractors because they only work at your place. I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Fair.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But if you hate all power no matter what, maybe don't run a small business. You kind of have no business doing that. No pun intended. Go work for someone else. Because this stance on power, quote unquote, it's not getting you anywhere. In fact, it's. You are going to run into serious issues if you just refuse to manage the people that work for you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I feel like she needs to have a real conversation with her mom about what is happening here between them and how it's impacting the company.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I agree. But I have no idea where she's supposed to start because this monster has like six heads and they're all trying to eat our friend here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay. I probably would not go after the chatgpt head from the start. I think that's the least problematic part of this letter. Maybe you sit down with your mom and you say, look, I think we're both noticing some new challenges since we moved to this employee based model. That's to be expected. You and I have more contact than we did before. I'm realizing that we have very different ways of approaching problems. Here's what I'm noticing and you can share briefly some of your observations and you can ask your mom, what are you noticing? You know, what has this been like for her? And then I would say something like, I would really love to work on this stuff so that we can be better partners to each other and also for the benefit of the company. And if there's anything that I'm doing to contribute to any of this, I want to know and I want to See if I can do anything to make things more productive. But then I would talk specifically with your mom about this tendency to get overwhelmed, the struggle to collaborate, her apparent need for autonomy, this allergic reaction to structure, to controlling, quote, unquote, your employees, and why she feels the need to go away for days or weeks. And what is she up to in that time? And why is it hard for her to stay in touch with you as she works through a decision and maybe see if she responds to you in a new way? Even a little openness and flexibility could make a very big difference.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I like all that in theory, Gabe, but my fear is that her mom does what she always does and just gets overwhelmed and says, sorry, I need to stop talking about all this. I can sort of visualize this, and it's annoying. Even the visual of someone being like, I can't think about this right now. Gosh, get away from my business.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If that happens, then I would say, okay, Mom, I hear you, that you're overwhelmed. My intention is not to overwhelm you, but when you get overwhelmed and pull away, then we stop talking and we don't make any progress. So I'd really like you to stay in this conversation, and maybe you can tell me why it's so overwhelming, and maybe I can help you find a way to make these conversations more details, doable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And if she still can't?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If she still can't, then I think our friend needs to start thinking about whether this partnership really makes sense.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's where I'm at with all this. I worked with dysfunctional partners for years, just way too long. And I know how crazy making it is. I just don't see this ending well. These people don't change. Plus, when the partner driving you crazy is also your mom, that just adds a whole other layer to the dynamic. It's very tough.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Totally. I'm sure this overwhelm, this avoidance, these qualities didn't just crop up in their working relationship for the first time. Right. If she's like this at work, I'm guessing she was probably like this, at least to some degree, growing up in their home. And that probably taps into some very old personal stuff. And I'm sure that sends our friend over the edge.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm sure if I had to run an Etsy business with my dad or whatever, I'd last, like three weeks. We'd be at each other's throats. Love you, dad. Not gonna happen. Also, when you're annoyed with your business partner who's just a business partner, it's so much easier to say, hey, the way you're doing this is driving me crazy. We need to get better at this. But when it's your mom, that can be really hard. Even harder than if it's your dad. It might feel cruel, scary, or dangerous. It's just. It's hard to call out your own parent.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The other option is maybe you buy your mom out and you take over the company.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I think so. And if she's not open to that, I would say maybe you leave it to her and you just go start your own. There are options.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. But I would not make any decisions until you guys really talk. You got to give this one good shot and see if you can make progress before you make a big move.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Honestly, this sounds very stressful, very frustrating. It sounds to me like you're looking for a real partner here, someone who can really be in this stuff with you, which is what every business partner needs and deserves. And you're not getting that from your mom. Ultimately, you're not stuck in this business. I'm not saying you should peace out tomorrow. But I would remember that you have the freedom to partner with the people you want to partner with and build the kind of business that you want to build. It sounds to me like your values and skills are the right ones, and those are going to be great assets to you, whatever you end up doing. And if you end up going through a business breakup, maybe have ChatGPT write your resignation letter. I'm sure it will steward all of this perfectly, and it will give your mom plenty to metabolize. All right, now we want you to metabolize the deals and discounts that we're about to shove down your throat. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quints. I'm a pretty normal guy asterisk. You guys know me, so that might just not be true. I'm not spending hours chasing down fashion trends. How's that? I'm definitely not trying to reinvent my wardrobe every season. I just want clothes that are comfortable, well made, easy to wear without looking like, you know, too much of a dad. That's why Quints has become a go to for me. It's the everyday basics you actually use. Linen shirts, pants, tees, but with better materials. I picked up a couple of their linen pieces for warmer weather. They've been great. They're lightweight, breathable, comfortable. Somehow still make it look like you put in a little effort, even when you really didn't. I'm also a big fan of their super soft fleece hoodie and joggers. I got these a couple years ago. They've held up incredibly well. They're still some of the softest things that I own. And the part that really is surprising is the price. It's way lower than you'd expect for this level of quality, like 50 to 60% less. Because quints cuts out the middlemen, skips the big retail markup. For me, it's not about buying more clothes, it's about upgrading the stuff you already wear all the time with better versions.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

Quince.comjordan this episode is also sponsored by AG1. My schedule gets pretty chaotic. One thing that's easy to stay consistent with is AG1. It doesn't matter if I'm home, traveling, rushing out the door. One scoop of water takes 20 seconds and I'm done. AG1 is basically a daily health drink that covers a lot in one go. 75 plus ingredients vitamins, minerals, probiotics, superfoods. So instead of juggling a bunch of different supplements, it's all handled in one scoop. Way easier for me to It's a reliable baseline. It supports gut health, helps fill in common nutrient gaps, gives you steady energy without adding complexity to your routine. Especially during busy seasons, it's nice to have something that doesn't change. Travel packs make it even easier. I've thrown a few of those in my bag in the past, so if you want a simple habit that can stick, AG1 is a choice.

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[Jordan Harbinger]

way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser. It is a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign [e-mail] news all right, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hi Jordan and Gabe. I must say I'm a little disappointed with your recent feedback on Ellie the Woman taking advantage of her mother in law with those long visits with the kids. That was question three on episode 1294.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, this is the mom that was getting UTIs from sitting so long because her daughter in law like held her hostage and gossiped to her in the kitchen while the kids watch TV upstairs for hours every day.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You didn't give enough consideration to the fact that Ellie's husband Peter might be the problem. I'll be 49 this year and I've spent my 40s unlearning the subtle misogyny that's been bred into us all. I'm a mother myself and although my mother in law is an absolute dream, I never considered spending nine hours a day with her. That's probably because I have friends, parents and siblings and a husband who doesn't emotionally neglect me. Maybe Ellie has no one else. I'm not excusing her taking advantage of her mother in law though, so don't roll your eyes yet. Let's take a look at Peter. He seems to know very little about what his wife is doing at his mother's house. Or does he know everything? If he's the breadwinner, then why isn't he offering his mother some money when he hears that she's been feeding his family? Also, are we supposed to believe that he makes his own meals every night or eats out every day after work? Hey Pete. Pete, where the hell are you? He seems to be living a separate life from his wife and kids. Does he do anything with his family? Also this we don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, how would I know?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Fair questions, but we don't have the answers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Frickin Pete you deadbeat.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, the siblings all seem to be pinning everything on Ellie. Typical clannish behavior because bro can do no wrong. It's all very dysfunctional and precious. Peter seems to be out of the loop altogether while the whole family bitches about his wife who's probably struggling really badly and completely isolated this letter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I love her writing style. It's so this is what's going on in my head, but she's just writing it down. Love that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Did she move away from her previous life to be there? Is her own mother an asshole? Does any of Pete's crew actually have a relationship or conversation with her sister in law Ellie? I've always found that women are villainized so much more quickly than men. They either don't let Granny see the kids or Granny sees the kids too much. Anyway, love the show. I'd love to know if this gave you a little food for thought. Or are you rolling your eyes at the snowflake feminazi from Ireland? Signed, feeling a bit heartsick that you were so quick to point the finger at the chick.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is an interesting perspective. I appreciate it. To state the obvious, we didn't have the full story about Ellie. This is one of the interesting challenges of doing the show and it's something Gabe and I constantly obsess about. Are we getting this right? What are we missing? What would the other person in the story have to say? We try to account for this as much as possible. We don't always do it perfectly, but it's important to us and we do our best. So I think you are making some very fair points. If I recall correctly, we did kind of nod to Peter. What he knows about the situation, what he doesn't know, what role he can play in making things fairer for his mom. You're right. It's easy to villainize Ellie. There were plenty of details in the letter that suggested she was oblivious at best and selfish at worst.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But I also remember us being a little tough on the mother in law too. The mom of the writer for not having the wherewithal to stand up for herself a little bit.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Totally. And so is that misogyny? Are we just blaming all the women in the story because they're women? Eh, I'm not sure I agree there. But I do take your point that it can be easier to point the finger at a woman when it comes to childcare than at a man who's at work during the day. And I guess because the bar is pretty low for men in the childcare department, they're traditionally not as involved with the kids. But I also remember us saying that if Peter knew what was happening at the house, he might have some strong feelings about it and intervene. So I don't think think we really did let him off the hook entirely either.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I agree. I also don't fully buy the narrative that Peter might be the sole problem. I mean, even if he is more responsible for some of this than we appreciated at first, I think it's very rare that one party is entirely to blame for anything. The picture I got from that letter was mom was abandoning herself, which is a very interesting theme today among the moms. Ellie was probably taking advantage of her and or oblivious to how much he was asking of this mother in law. And then Peter is either encouraging it or he's just distracted and unaware himself. And together they all create the situation. That feels truer to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, where I fully agree with Our friend here is even if Ellie's out of line, we can be curious about her reasons. Like you said, maybe Ellie has no one else. Maybe she's spending so much time with the mom because she's lonely and exhausted and craves the connection. And that's fair. Although I do kind of remember us talking about that how maybe time at her mother in law's house is actually a reprieve from childcare.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We did. But what's interesting to me about this is yes, yes, let's absolutely be curious about Ellie's reasons for acting this way. Absolutely. But if it's born from loneliness and isolation, that's still her responsibility. Right? Like we can still ask the question, why is she so lonely? Why doesn't she have other friends? I don't think it's misogyny to say, hey, why are you so isolated? What are you looking for from your mother in law that you should maybe be getting from a few other people?

[Jordan Harbinger]

And why for sure I'm remembering now. Didn't the letter writer say that Ellie's only friends are parents of others kids

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Friends, yeah, the other moms in the carpool line or whatever. And that's about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. So yeah. So she basically just has no friends and so she's turning to her mother in law to meet all of her social childcare, everything needs. But I hear you. That's compatible with her husband being emotionally checked out and distant as well.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's also true that if Peter is this kind of husband, if there are some problems in their marriage or he's just not as involved as he should be, which is definitely challenging in its own way. It's still true that she chose him and she's not asking him for more. So there's also that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good point. But look, I totally share your view that Peter and Ellie need to be way more conscientious about what they're asking his mom to do. The money she spends on these visits, in a way that's the least of it, but it is significant and that's not cool to ask his mom to do. At the very least he should be checking in with her. Are you okay hanging with Ellie and the kids so often? Can we cover the costs? Do you need anything? That would be a nice thing to do. And you're right that a number of siblings in that family were pinning most of this on Ellie. Whether that means they side with Peter and feel he can do no wrong, maybe, possibly could totally be the case, but that's also speculation. So what I find interesting about your letter is I can hear you're very passionate about this topic, and I appreciate that. It's really good for us to see. And I do wonder if you might be mapping some of your own experiences and feelings onto this family.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Mapping interest? You mean projecting?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, no, ChatGPT specifically told me not to use that word. It's mapping, Gabriel. We say mapping.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, we say mapping now. Got it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But look, if you've dealt with anything similar in your own family, I can't blame you for that. Some of these dynamics and biases really are universal, and that's why I'm glad you wrote in. And some of them are unique to each family. And we just don't know whether this family is actually being truly misogynistic when they serve Ellie some side up. But I appreciate the questions and theories. I really do. For me, the biggest takeaway is we have to keep wondering about these people's reasons for doing what they do, even when they're doing something wrong. Also, I want to keep being curious about alternative narratives in these stories and keep an eye on any subtle misogyny that might creep in, because I share your view up to a point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My takeaway from that letter still is do not sit for hours if you have to pee because you can get a UTI news.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To me, that was a big lesson for me, too. It's funny you mentioned that. I've been thinking about that ever since that episode. Every time I'm at my desk and I have to pee, I'm like, all right, just go get up and pee uti like that mother in law who doesn't go to Zumba anymore. Speaking of taking a leak, now's a great time for a break. We'll be right back. Also, in case y' all don't know, there is a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes. If there's an episode you like, an episode you didn't like, you got questions about something, there's additional thoughts you want to learn from other people in the show. Fam, come check it out. A lot of cool conversations happening over there. That's at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, now for the recommendation of

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

the week, I am addicted to lip filler.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My recommendation of the week is an artisanal salsa brand called Double Take Salsa. Double Take Salsa. It's a mom and pop based in Minnesota. It's grown from a local passion project to a beloved national brand. And they sent me a case of salsa and a bunch of hot sauce. And at first, you know, I was kind of like, all right, salsa, hot sauce, okay. But it's amazing. It's almost all gone. It's been like a month. It's flavorful. It's unique. I let my nanny try it who she eats salsa every day. She's Mexican, and she loves it. She's like, this is high quality. This is good stuff. It's not so spicy that it knocks you on your butt. Everything is balanced really nicely. One thing that I love about it is there is a fine line with both salsa and hot sauce. There's a fine line between, wow, this adds kick and flavor. And then, you know, over the line is, I can only taste the spice. My mouth is on fire, and I got hiccups, and I'm drinking copious amounts of water. That's not the point of hot sauce, right? It should bring out the flavors in the food and the texture, not just replace it. And this stuff really nails it for me. Anyway, highly recommend this stuff. It's so good. They also, since I contacted them about this, they offered Everybody listening a 25% discount, which I think is pretty generous. Just go to doubletakesalsa.com, buy whatever salsa hot sauce you want. Use code Jordan at checkout. And I want to remind everybody, recommendations of the week, they're not sponsored. They're not paid for. They are just recommendations of things we like. This one happened to be from a brand that wanted to offer listeners a discount. This is not like they sponsored it. That's why there's a code. I figured I should say that just in case anybody was wondering. By the way, you can reach us [e-mail], keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. It makes our job a lot easier if you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox. A narcissistic, fair weather friend is insisting on moving in with you and your fiance, or you're stuck between getting mental health treatment and protecting a pension you've worked decades for. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up [e-mail] we're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I have been married for over 20 years. We've raised two wonderful kids and in many ways raised each other from idiot teenagers to the functional adults we are today. As is frequently the case when people get married too young. Our marriage has been fraught with strife from day one. Those early years saw a lot of physical violence. Her toward me, infidelity again on her part, only lying, gaslighting, and manipulation. I certainly won't pretend that I'm innocent of wrongdoing in our relationship, but I very much feel that I have given the best years of my life to a broken woman.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's intense, man. So a lot of conflict in this marriage, A lot of pain. This is sad. Wow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

For context, my wife grew up in an abusive home, riddled with violence and substance abuse. She was physically abused by her father and even witnessed him nearly murder her mother on several occasions.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. That's dark.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No wonder when we got engaged at 19, I had no way of knowing the ramifications this type of trauma can wreak on a personal person. To top it off, about 10 years into our marriage, she shared with me that she had been sexually abused by friends and family members, starting at a very young age and not ending until she left for college.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. That's terrible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, at one point during her teen years, her father left and started a family with another woman, only to be welcomed back by her mother about a year later, and the addiction and physical abuse resumed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. Holy cow. This poor woman. At first I was like, what a piece of work. But now I kind of see why she's hitting him and cheating on him and spiraling. She's just. I hope she's gotten some help.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Shortly after we got together, my family revolted against her. I was blindly in love and couldn't see the red flags, but they could. They did their best to talk me out of the relationship, but I rebelled. This, of course, led to major strife between her and them. Strife that continues to this day and has resulted in me having next to no interaction with them. I know there's blame all around for that situation, and as an adult, I could have more interaction with them if I wanted, but honestly, it's just easier not to and avoid the battle at home. Oh, man.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting. So now we're hearing how he's created this situation. So it's not just his wife. It's also how he's cramping around her and trying not to provoke her and choosing her over his family to keep things on an even keel and all that. That's fascinating.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The physical violence has been gone for about five years, but it was replaced with something much more devastating. A few years ago, she started using the threat of suicide as a method to get what she wanted.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. What a nightmare.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Among other things, she has Used this threat to get me to move three times, including a move across the country to be far from both our families. I went along with it, thinking that she would be better if she were away from her own dysfunctional family. But, of course, they just decided to pack up and move near us with her support.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What? That is so manipulative. I am just at a loss here, Gabe. I. I honestly don't know who to blame here and who to feel sorry for. There's so much stuff going on here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know. Very confusing. So, he goes on. Honestly, there are too many issues to list.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Yes, I believe you for sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Today, she has devolved into a very bitter, angry, controlling person. Person. She makes many demands, including that I bring her food and bed, do most of the household chores, and allow her to have full control over our finances. If she ever sees me sitting down and relaxing, she gets instantly pissed and gives me a laundry list of tasks to do, even if she's in bed playing on her phone. I've listened to enough of your shows to know why she acts this way, but frankly, I'm done with it. I'm very sympathetic to her childhood trauma and how it shaped her. I've tried talking to her about it, but. But she just doesn't care if I try to stand up for myself. She spends an hour lecturing me for being quote, unquote defensive or having a quote unquote pride issue. This argument just shuts me down.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, man, I'm biting my tongue. This is so hard to hear.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She did try going to therapy a few years ago, but it didn't work. I only recently found out that while in therapy, she refused to acknowledge the past sexual abuse, A move that I'm sure was made out of shame. Shame? She was put on antidepressants, which she still takes, but in no way did she heal from her trauma.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Therapy didn't work. Well, did you tell the therapist what was going on? No. I hid the most important information about my past and then gave up. Went to a shrink, put me on Paxil, called it a day.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Very frustrating. But, you know, to be fair, I'm sure it's more like the thought of even going near this stuff is too devastating and humiliating, so I just gave up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, I hear that, but this is. That's just no way to deal with your trauma.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, clearly not. Our kids are now 22 and 19, and I love them so much. I came from a broken home and made an early vow never to walk out on my kids the way my dad walked out on me. I knew early on that our marriage was toxic, and I acknowledge the fact that I'm currently in this situation because I refused to leave. To me, that was and still is worth it. I've been able to live every day in the same home as my kids, and we've somehow managed to spare them from most of our dysfunctions. I'm not naive. I know some of it has been seen by them, but my wife's issues are almost exclusively directed at me. I actually think she's been a good mother to them. Our kids are very nearly out of the house, with the oldest getting married this spring and the youngest sure to fly the coop within the next few years. For years, my wife has told me that she plans to leave me when the kids move out. While I do think this has just been a manipulative threat at times, I really can't see her staying with me much longer. Her for my part, I decided a long time ago that if she doesn't leave, I will. My relationship with my kids is strong enough to survive divorce, and I feel that I've accomplished my mission of keeping the family together until it naturally grew apart. I also love my wife. Believe it or not, I don't think you can spend 20 plus years with someone and not harbor serious feelings for them. I just can't handle the toxicity anymore. I'm not writing because I want to fix her or the relationship. I know that's a lost cause. I'm writing because I want to be prepared for our inevitable divorce in the near future. Aside from therapy, which I know you'll recommend, what practical steps should I be taking now to protect myself and be best positioned for life after marriage? I'm looking forward to a dues of a sign off by Gabe. Don't let me down.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, don't let him down, Gabe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I know he might stay with me for the next 20 years.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, ouch. Zing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Signed a husband at his limit though he knows that he's complicit in sticking around and refusing to pivot from a wife who's been quite wicked. Now it's trying to be explicit in it about shaking off this grimace Charting my own path without tipping it that I'm fit to file in a minute.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That was a ride, man. Both the letter and the sign off. I feel like I need a drink, man. I'm sweating over here. This was not even my marriage, so. Okay, let me start by saying I'm very sorry for what you and your kids have been through these past 20 plus years. You know better than anyone your wife's trauma, which is significant. It sounds like it's done a real number on you. You've had to live with a person, understand a person, take care of a person who's just in a lot of pain, who's inflicted a lot of pain as well for two decades. I can only imagine the psychological toll that that's taken on you. It's just got to be immense. Obviously, you've played a role in exposing yourself to that pain. I know you know that. I know you have your reasons. But that doesn't change the fact that everything you've been through, the physical and emotional abuse of many kinds, the betrayal, the manipulation, the chaos, I'm honestly still reeling from all this. It is heartbreaking, it's disturbing, it's unfair. So, okay, we could probably talk for hours about everything you've been through, about your wife's trauma, about the last 20 years. There's so much to discuss, but you're looking ahead. You want to know what practical things you should be doing right now to protect yourself and position yourself well for life on the other side of this separation. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And he's already taken away our favorite recommendation. So we can't talk about therapy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. The low hanging fruit is gone, which I have to go on record and say is absolutely one place you should be asap. Yes, and your kids, too, but that's their business at this point. You don't need me to tell you that you have some very real trauma of your own because of this marriage and some very important things to look at, including these qualities that blinded you to your wife's dysfunction that kept you sticking around through all this mistreatment. I really do believe, and this is the last thing I'll say about this, I really do believe that the best thing you could do to set yourself up well here is to find a really good therapist and start talking, because you have a lot to process. You're about to go through a massive transition, and I think the end of your marriage is going to bring up a lot of big questions and feelings and new challenges, and you're really going to want to have that space. Okay, so practical. First of all, you need to find a solid attorney. If it's true your wife is already planning on leaving you, I don't know how messy the separation is going to get, but given everything you've shared about her personality, I'd go into this assuming that it's going to get very messy and very contentious. Just for the Sake of being contentious, I have to imagine she's going to make everything more difficult than it has to be. I also think that because she controls all of your finances, which is a deliberate move on her part, just dividing your assets is probably going to be a clusterf, dude. She's probably going to rage at you through her eternity attorney. She's going to drive her own attorney insane. Mark my word, she'll fire. At least one or one of them will quit on her and that'll drag out the process. I don't mean to stress you out even more, but I could totally see that happening. So I'd go into this assuming that your divorce is going to be quite difficult. I would also find an attorney who understands the nuances here and who's ready and willing to fight. You need excellent representation. So honestly, if your mind's already made up, I would probably start reaching out to lawyers now. Now, book some consults, Share your story with them. Tell them your goals, your interest in this divorce. Ask them what they think is likely to happen based on what they've seen. And I would ask them, should I be documenting anything right now? What sorts of stuff? What financial steps can I legally take now? How might the court view financial control? Emotional abuse? What risks do I face if she escalates these self harm threats? Then start taking their advice. Now. That way, when one of you finally says, all right, I'm leaving, you're 12 steps ahead. I know that feels kind of Machiavellian, but I think you owe it to yourself to protect yourself in this way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sound advice. The other thing I would be doing is rebuilding your relationships with your friends and family. I think that's so important.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Read my mind, Gabe. He needs support. He needs community.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The sense I'm getting from your letter is that you're very isolated, obviously from your parents, but also, I imagine, from a lot of other good people in your life.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, she made them move away, remember? Which I assume was part of her strategy. So you're also physically far from people who could be showing up for you. That's not an accident.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It sounds like the closest people in his life are probably his kids, which is wonderful. And I would not be surprised if they're bonded through all of this. But there's probably kind of like an us against mom thing. Even if she was a good mom to them, they're all he has. And yeah, that's better than the alternative. But that also might have kept them from building relationships with other people outside of the immediate family. So. So I would Start rebuilding these ties. And it might take some time, especially with your parents, who I assume are probably pretty concerned and perhaps a bit hurt that you chose your wife over them when it sounds like they were absolutely right in trying to protect you. You said that you could have more interaction with them if you wanted to. So that gives me hope that they are just waiting for you to reach out and say, hey, can we try again? And if you're planning on separating, then I assume you don't have as much of an incentive to avoid the battle at home by being in touch with them. But. But if it's going to take months or even years to reconnect and repair with them, I would definitely start that process now. And that goes for anyone else in your life. Extended family, friends, colleagues. You might have to go through a phase where you guys talk about all of this, where you work through any conflicts or injuries that have resulted from pulling away like this. I wouldn't wait until you separate and then start doing that work. First of all, I think that's going to send maybe not the best signal to these people. And, baby, it takes time. So I would do that work now, see how it plays out. Heal whatever you need to heal so that you have this love and support you need in place when you need it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dude, 100%. This is a version of digging the well before you get thirsty.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Emotionally thirsty, totally psycho, spiritually parched.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. Before you get that cognitive cottonmouth. Exactly. I would also start making sure you're financially stable, especially since you don't control your assets. This is alarming for me. So little thought experiment here. Imagine you get separated next week. Picture the worst case scenario, right? She goes nuclear. She changes your bank password, she takes your name off the accounts, she drains the accounts and puts them somewhere else. You can't access your retirement, your brokerage, you can't go to an atm, you don't have petty cash. What would you do? Think about that. Then work backward. Obviously, you need to talk to your attorney about how to do this in a legally compliant way. You don't want it to look like you're moving money around in a way that's not appropriate. Appropriate. But you might want to consider opening a personal bank account in your own name, quietly setting some money aside, opening a credit card in your own name, stuff like that. So you have some lifelines and a safety net. And if you're thinking like, oh, my God, I can't alert her to this because she's going to get the mail, go to The UPS store or whatever and get a box and have that stuff sent there. Because if you end up leaving the house, what, your mail's going there now? Like, you should have an address where you can pick this stuff up. Just stuff like that. So you got lifelines, you got a safety net. I would also start gathering every financial record that you can. Tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, insurance policies, titles for the house and the car, stuff like that. Just sort of slowly gather that. Also related. Make sure you have access to your passport, your Social Security card, all that good stuff. Store copies of all that in Dropbox or Google or Icloud or somewhere secure that she cannot access an external hard drive. I mean, that's way less secure, but whatever. You want to have visibility into the marital finances before things become adversarial. That way, you know, she can't go, oh, drain an account and then say, oh, the joint brokerage. No, that never existed. Or, I don't. I don't know what you're talking about. Or. No, that was mine. That was never his. His name was never on there. Or just vastly understate her earnings or savings or property or overstate her expenses or stick you with credit card bills, stuff like that. All that stuff happens when things get messages, messy. This is really crucial. Just like a victim of domestic abuse. Well, which you are. A lot of your power and independence depends on your financial security. So that really, it has to be a priority.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm still thinking about his kids. They're probably going to be a big support for him. Maybe his only support, for better or worse. And despite what he said about sparing them from most of his and his wife's dysfunction.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I don't fully buy that, by the way. I just. I don't. Sorry.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm not sure I do either. I mean, look, maybe they shielded them from most of it and, you know, she attacks him. She doesn't attack the kids, whatever. And if so, that's great news. But there's no way you grow up in the same house with a mom like this. You see how she treats your dad? You see how she's dealt with her own pain and you're not affected by it. I don't know. I know that he's acknowledging that. I'm just appreciating what a number she has probably done on their kids as well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm struggling to understand how she could have been a good mother to them when she's like this. But he did say her stuff is. Is almost exclusively directed at him. She's been a good mom to the kids, apparently.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I really, really hope that's true. But even if it is true, that's still awful for kids to witness or even just, like, sense in the house. Mom and dad are not okay. Something is not right here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I have some strong feelings about the whole I vowed never to walk out on my kids the way my dad walked out on me thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I do, too, I have to say.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Like, look, I appreciate where he's coming from. This is a big reason he stayed. That was obviously a huge wound for him. He doesn't want to recreate it with his own kids.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right, but that didn't prevent all the damage from being done. The problem was getting married to her in the first place, not divorcing her when he realized things were this bad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. And how much more pain and chaos did he subject himself and his kids to by staying? I understand the logic, okay? I just. I don't want. He's saying, I don't want to do to my kids what my dad did to me. But I don't understand how it holds up when you really consider the consequences. There's no perfect outcome when you break up a family. But sometimes staying together really is worse for everyone involved. And that has to be true in this case.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, you know, that's up to him to decide. And I understand that he doesn't want us to, like, therapize him too much, but I have to imagine that not growing up with a father. Yeah. That informed this decision to stick around. But I think it also must have played some kind of role in why he ended up with this particular wife and why he struggles to stand up to her and protect himself 100%.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Man. When he shared that, my heart broke a little. This is his trauma. It sounds like unaddressed. And when this stuff goes unaddressed, it can lead you to some pretty dangerous situations.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He knows he's in this situation because he refused to leave. But then he said that wasn't. Still is worth it. And I guess I'm with you. I'm just. I'm not entirely sure about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'd love to ask him that question again in six months or a year, five years, see if it's still true. Maybe it is for him. Or maybe when he's out, he sees what he's been through. He'd be like, I cannot believe I stuck around.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Around.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's my bet.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I guess it depends on how wed he is to the idea of keeping the family together at all costs. But anyway, my point in bringing up the kids was just now that they're adults, I would maybe think about having some very open conversations with them about what the last 20 years have been like. You know, give them space to talk about mom and to talk about her honestly and share what their childhood was like and how they're feeling these days, what they make of all of this, if they have any thoughts or feelings about her or the marriage, even about. About you, our friend here, which is hard to bear, I know, but might be very liberating and healing for them to be able to share with you. So one thing you can do to set yourself up well for life after separation is really make sure that you and your kids are in a good place. Make it safe for them to talk to you about what this has been like, because it sounds like they're going to be very important people to you when you go through this transition. They can't be the only people. And there are certain things that you probably should not bring to your kids while you go through a divorce. But starting these conversations could be a game changer for all of you. I think it could also really help you guys stay close through all of this. And you guys all deserve that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Totally agree, Gabe. The last thing I want to say is, as you can tell, we both feel that you've co created this situation and enabled your wife in various ways. And I know you know that, but no one deserves to go through what you've been through. Maybe the most difficult detail you've shared with us in some ways is the threats to commit suicide to get you to do what she wants. I just. I find that incredibly disturbing. It's incredibly unfair and I genuinely worry about the impact that this has had on you. If she does that again, it sounds like it might be ongoing. I would really encourage you to take a beat and consider if you really want to play along. And I would encourage you to look into other responses, crisis lines, emergency services, mental health professionals, or nothing, and just see what happens. I know that sounds terrible, but I would not give in and play along again. Also dark Jordan peeking out, out. If she does end up in an ER or the police do a wellness check and she gets put on an involuntary hold or she has to enter a facility or something that could become useful in divorce proceedings. I'm not telling you to do any of these in order to screw her over. Not explicitly anyway, but if she's saying, I'm going to kill myself if you don't stay home more or whatever, and you're like Okay, I hear you. That you intend to hurt yourself. I'm calling 911. And there are. If there are consequences attached to that, that is on her. Dude, she's said it. She's doing this to herself. But my main point is I would start asserting yourself appropriately here and start looking for small ways to release these roles your wife has put you in, especially this one of keeping her alive and keeping her stable. It must be exhausting and beyond stressful to maintain. And that's gonna have to end eventually. You might as well start taking steps towards that now. Separating is not gonna be easy, but it is going to be life changing, liberating, clarifying, monumental. I am genuinely excited for you. So take good care of your putting bricks in this wall. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Ben Jordan and our Skeptical Sunday on water filters if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. It's the circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. The course is free. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at 6minutenetworking.com. Drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need them. Them. You can find it all for free at sixminutenetworking.com show notes and transcripts are on the website. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show [e-mail] deals I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram. Gabriel Mizrahi this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. One day, the encryption protecting your bank account, medical records and private messages will simply stop working. Not because of a hack, but because computers get smart enough to break it instantly. The scary part, that day is already being planned for and your data may already be saved for later.

[John Young]

Quantum computers actually are a real step in evolution in the way that everybody knows about a binary state, zeros and ones on and off. Well, that was and is the technology for the classic computers today. We've improved technologically much faster than we have been able to as a society come up with, with ways to prevent the harm. Quantum computers can lead to what's called Q day, or I prefer to call it digital disaster day D day two, because that's the day when all the digital secrets that the normal computers can't crack through encryption are going to be cracked by quantum computers. And that is really what gets people's attention. Combine that with AI and boy, we've really got a one, two punch that can make humanity take these giant technological leaps that we had no idea could possibly happen. And that's one of the big fears is AI that a lot of people are worried about. Now quantum's coming around the corner. It makes it even twice as scary. It's a huge mixed bag of possibilities for everybody that are great and also danger, you know, Terminator level existential problems. All the doomsday preppers actually are onto something. If this does happen in the next few years, we're really going to be in big trouble. That's why I'm sort of an evangelist out there trying to speak on it and let people know this is a major problem. We can't just stick our head in the sand.

[Jordan Harbinger]

To hear from quantum expert John Young on what Q day is, why it matters now, and what happens when our digital security hits its expiration date. Check out episode 1261 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.