1316: If His Ex Was a Rebound, Why's She Still Around? | Feedback Friday

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show – Episode 1316: If His Ex Was a Rebound, Why's She Still Around? | Feedback Friday
Date: April 24, 2026
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Co-host: Gabriel Mizrahi

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of Feedback Friday centers on navigating complex relationships—specifically, the murky dynamics of spouses staying friends with exes, boundaries in family caregiving, the varying goals of therapy, and the ripple effects of family trauma. Jordan and Gabriel tackle listener questions with their signature blend of empathy, analysis, and banter, highlighting that most situations are multifaceted and rarely have black-and-white answers. Notably, the episode features a rare follow-up from a sibling offering a radically different perspective on a letter previously read on the show.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gabe’s Brazilian Paradise (Travel Stories & Mindfulness in Nature)

• [02:12–12:33]
  Gabe describes his stay in the coastal Brazilian town of Praia de Algodões, drawing contrasts between urban stress and the relaxed rhythms of rural life.
  • Stresses how unplugging from routine and responding to the "real" rhythms of the day can be grounding and therapeutic.
  • Compared to “primitive” existence and "nature therapy."
  • Memorable moment: Gabe marvels at the natural beauty:

    “It's like stepping outside of time or something.” – (Gabriel, 04:53)

  • Humor: Playful banter about never wearing shoes and the challenges of travel.
  • Reflection on how certain spots remain pristine due to the difficulty of access:

    “It being far away is why it's not ruined.” – Jordan (07:40)

  • Jordan jokes about his own “Disney cruise” upcoming, setting up their ongoing playful comparison of lifestyles.

2. Listener Mailbag

a) When Is a Rebound No Longer Just a Rebound? [13:37–34:45]

Situation:

• Listener's husband maintains a close friendship with his ex (Kelly), which causes friction. The wife is introverted and reserved, the husband highly social. Recent trip led to discomfort when he planned family outings involving Kelly, was particularly friendly with her, and failed to include his wife.

Hosts’ Analysis:

• Jordan notes ambiguities: Could be innocent friendship, could be emotional affair, or something in between.
• Kelly’s openness about her own marital issues complicates the “threat" narrative.
• The husband’s sociability, guilt, and openness with Kelly contrast with his wife’s introversion; this could spur insecurity but doesn’t, on its own, signal anything inappropriate.

  “If you’re into somebody, you’re not like, ‘let’s bring our spouses out to have dinner together’.” – Jordan (20:37)

• Hosts reflect thoughtfully on introvert-extrovert misunderstanding (esp. the "forced hug" incident) and encourage the wife not to over-interpret social customs as threats.
• Therapy Guidance:
  • Bring up feelings as “data” in therapy, explore what gets triggered by Kelly, ask the husband to articulate honestly what this friendship means and what boundaries exist.
  • The ultimate focus: not just resolving the “Kelly question” but developing improved communication, trust, and clearer boundaries as a couple.
  • Quote:

    “Clarity, communication, integrity... that is my hope for you.” – Jordan (34:34)

b) Is Therapy Only for Problem-Solving? [37:30–46:27]

Situation: Mechanical engineer listener wonders if ongoing therapy is necessary once “main” problems are resolved, or if it's okay to quit.

Hosts’ Analysis:

• Jordan and Gabe both agree: therapy can be finite, especially if your orientation is goal- and symptom-focused.
• However, therapy can also be useful as an ongoing process of self-discovery—even after acute issues are resolved, new questions or challenges inevitably arise.

  “Sometimes the thing that brings you into therapy is just the entry point, but it’s not necessarily the main thing or the only thing.” – Gabriel (39:58)

• Gabe cites psychologist James Hillman: symptoms are not just to be “cured” but can be sources of meaning and growth.
  • Working through existential questions in long-term therapy can deepen self-understanding, not just “fix” problems.
• Actionable advice: Goals are great; if progress stops, it’s time to re-evaluate. Don't feel pressured to stay or go—choose based on your growth and needs.
• Memorable line:

  “You’re not failing therapy if you go for a year and then you stop.” – Jordan (45:42)

c) Caring for a Difficult, Aging Parent [49:32–62:48]

Situation: A listener, retired, is primary caregiver for his reclusive, 100-year-old, racist mother. She refuses outside help, draining his time and energy. His brother can help, but the mother’s racism prevents his Asian wife from visiting.

Hosts’ Analysis:

• Hosts express empathy—and frustration—over the mother’s rigid boundaries and emotional manipulation.

  “She is just asking a whole lot of her kids with, like, no remorse whatsoever.” – Jordan (60:00)

• They encourage the listener to reconsider which accommodations truly serve both his mother’s (and his own) needs, and to establish firmer boundaries, stating it is acceptable to seek caretakers even if mom protests.
• Suggests enlisting brother and setting (even imperfect) compromises, perhaps with the help of care agencies who are sadly used to such prejudices.
• The hosts walk the line between “honoring your duty” and “being consumed by it.”

  “There is a way to fulfill this duty to her without completely sacrificing your own life.” – Jordan (63:06)

• Humorous aside about the “light at the end of the tunnel” when a centenarian parent is involved.

3. Listener Update: The Other Side of a Family Trauma Story [68:53–99:52]

Background:

• Several months prior, a 29-year-old man wrote in about escaping a mentally ill, controlling, and abusive mother, wanting to reconnect with a sister who had cut him off.
• In this episode, the sister writes in with her own story, revealing much darker details:

Key Points in Her Letter:

• Mother severely abused, isolated, manipulated, and gaslit her children, even impersonating them online.
• Sister endured not just neglect and psychological abuse, but also serious physical and sexual abuse by her brother (while both were minors, and while he too was a victim of the mother’s dysfunction).
• After escaping (with brother’s help), she went no-contact for years to heal. She and her brother have since reconnected, with deep ambivalence and heavy grief.
• She struggles with guilt over her mother’s disappearance, the family’s fragmentation, and her own traumatic past.

  “I think I will carry this question, this guilt, for the rest of my life—am I the one who ruined that for them?” – Sister (86:50)

• Despite all this, she maintains a wry sense of humor and hope for the future and is remarkably compassionate toward her brother, echoing the complex ways victims of family abuse can feel both anger and forgiveness.

  “If we had grown up in a healthy environment, we would have been healthy too. If mom weren’t crazy, we wouldn’t have done crazy things.” – Sister (84:56)

Hosts’ Reflection:

• Jordan and Gabriel are shaken; they revisit lessons about the need to consider all sides of a story, and the immense resilience of survivors.
• Note the importance of long-term therapy for such severe trauma, and discuss the paradox of children still longing for a relationship with abusive parents, as well as "learned helplessness" and difficulties in regaining agency.
• Gabriel:

  “Sibling sexual abuse is incredibly traumatic and very complicated... In a lot of cases, the abuser...is both perpetrator and victim. And that must really confuse the picture.” – (99:23)

• Jordan stresses the need for compassion and trauma-informed care, offering the writer validation and hope.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On extroversion vs. introversion:

  “This is exactly the type of thing that happens between introverts and extroverts. An extrovert gives someone a hug because that's what they do. And they're not looking at any of the—they're just tuned out to all these other channels...” – Jordan (25:10)

• On boundaries and difficult parents:

  “Is our friend especially susceptible to that message? Do those words get in very easily with her? Is it hard for her to gently stand up to her mom?... there are many ways to respond to a parent, and there are many ways to help them.” – Gabriel (57:43)

• On sibling abuse and trauma:

  “Sibling sexual abuse is incredibly traumatic and very complicated. We've learned a little bit about it from our experts over the years. It's been a very big education for us.” – Gabriel (99:23)

• On the power of perspective:

  “We're always hearing one side of the story ... when we do, I often feel like we get a little bit closer to the truth, whatever that is.” – Gabriel (93:20)

• On hope and resilience:

  “There's so much sadness here. ... You know what? There's also so much hope and potential.” – Jordan (99:57)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------| | 02:12–12:33 | Gabe’s Brazilian travel, nature, mindfulness | | 13:37–34:45 | Letter 1: Husband’s friendship with ex (Kelly) | | 37:30–46:27 | Letter 2: Therapy—goal-oriented or ongoing? | | 49:32–62:48 | Letter 3: Elderly parent, boundaries, racism | | 68:53–99:52 | Letter 4: Follow-up from sister—family trauma | | 99:52–End | Reflections, resilience, outro |

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Structure & Tone

• Language and Tone: Conversational, thoughtful, often wry or humorous even when addressing difficult topics; open to differing perspectives.
• Hosts’ Approach: Deeply analytic but relatable; regular use of self-deprecating humor to soften sensitive content.
• Overall Mood: Compassionate, nuanced, and ultimately optimistic about the potential for growth, healing, and agency—even in the messiest of life situations.

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For New Listeners

This episode exemplifies the show's depth, nuance, and willingness to sit with ambiguity. If you want advice that's not just fast “fixes” but an invitation to deeper reflection, and are willing to accept that real-life stories are rarely simple, this is the podcast for you.

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Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Dr. Rhonda Patrick]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

early book with vrbo. This episode is brought to you by Lufthansa. Lufthansa Allegris is an innovative elevated travel experience across all classes, focusing on each person with their own individual and situational needs. Look forward to your own feel good moment above the clouds. Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris all it takes is a yes. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer or my bro in Bahia, my co creator crouching beneath the coconut trees, Gabriel Mizrahi. The H is indeed silent in that word.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is that Bahia?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bahia.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is it Bahia? It's like half silent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It makes the a longer kind of.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's not Bahia, but right. Maybe it's Bahia.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I have to ask because I am the KANAPS guy My self confidence and, well, my reading ability, my linguistic has been shattered over the past year. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turned their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Neuroscientists, war correspondents, rocket scientists, astronauts. This week we talked with Nicholas Niarchos on rare earth minerals that go into things like batteries, what kind of environmental damage this does, who's mining these minerals, how this sets up an almost entirely new world order based around China and these minerals. It's actually kind of a crazy tale of both economics and human suffering. But it ends with an optimistic note. I don't want to undersell it too much. We also had a skeptical Sunday. This Sunday on Bees On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and somehow, against all odds, splash around in the waves of your most pressing existential dilemmas from opposite ends of this beautiful blue marble. Speaking of which, Gabe's Instagram. You've been far too glam this week.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey, it's producer Jace here. If you'd like to skip Gabe's travel

[Jordan Harbinger]

stories and move straight to the DOO's cruise, you can do so so by skipping ahead to 12 minutes. Enjoy the show. Having a good time down there in Brazil, bud?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dude, I am having the best time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, the photos are ridiculous. I'm jealous. I'm over here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, yeah, in my office. I'm sorry, I'm not gonna rub it in your face, but it's been pretty.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No rub vigorously. I'm going on a cruise next week. Go for it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm in a town called Praia de Algadois in Bahia and it is just like one of these tiny, very underdeveloped, very pristine towns on the coast of Brazil. It is stunning, dude. Like, probably one of the most beautiful places I've ever been.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is it better than North Korea?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, of course not. Yeah, don't be crazy. Nothing tops Wonsan in the summer.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's what I thought. All that concrete just reflecting the heat.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, dude, it's just so. I'm kind of at a loss for words because I just don't know if I've been in such a beautiful place before. But it's just so peaceful. Very calm. It's a beach town. The water is warm, dirt Roads, you know, like, they haven't paved the roads properly, which I think is part of why it's still so nice. Very little development. Kind of a headache to get here. You have to fly to Sao Paulo, and then you have to take another flight, two hours to this town called Ileos. And then you have to drive like two, two and a half hours to Algodois when these roads that are just so bad, like, it's worse than the worst turbulence on a flight you can imagine. But when you get here, it's hard to describe it. It's like stepping outside of time or something.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It sounds a little bit like my travel group Wayfinders. Like you'll be in a nice yurt in the middle of the Moroccan desert, or a cabin without WI fi in the Amazon, where one wall is open to the jungle, but you're kind of in heaven once you get past the howler monkeys, which sound like demons at night. And then you're just like, oh, this is how the world used to be. You're more conscious of time, like real time. You know, you're in bed at 6 because it's dark and. And just how time moves when you're not commuting and picking people up and go into the dry cleaners and all that crap.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, the experience of time is very different. And you're also more in touch with the rhythms of life. Like when you're awake, when you're tired, you're like, oh, I'm tired. This is the part of the day where you get sleepy and, you know, you just feel like every segment of the day, what it feels like, what it offers, what you're supposed to be doing. I just. I always forget how much we need that until I come to a place like this, which doesn't happen too often, so.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Nature therapy. Your voice is even more buttery smooth than usual, so I can tell you're very relaxed.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Is it? I was actually going to say I'm starting to lose it a little bit because I was talking to a bunch of people a couple days ago and I haven't slept a lot. So my voice is a bit weird actually today, but maybe it sounds different in my head. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Here's the real metric. How many days in the last couple of weeks have you worn shoes?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I have not worn shoes in about two weeks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's all I needed to know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Does that tell you anything?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Primitive Gabe starting, you know, hanging from trees or whatever with your bully opposable toes? Yes, the Jungle Book. Nice. Yeah, exactly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Do you remember the computer game the Secret of Monkey Island?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. My friend had it. I didn't. I think it was for Commodore 64 or something like that. Right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't even know what that is.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, don't worry about it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It was on my PC when I was growing up. Yeah. This place is giving Secret of Monkey Island a little bit minus the witty sword fights.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Aren't they more partial to machete fights down there in Brazil? Isn't that kind of more their vibe?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. I've seen so many machetes since I've gone here. I think every. Every person who works around here carries one just like. Yeah, I'll paint you a very quick picture before we ram the old dude's cruise into the first iceberg, please.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Tropical warmth before we dive into the frigid Arctic of other people's troubles.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So I'm sitting right now in a bungalow at this poozada, like, a really nice inn. And the beds are not great. You sleep in mosquito nets. It's kind of raw. But I walk maybe 30ft, and I'm at the water, and the sand is white, and the water is like. Imagine the perfect temperature of ocean water. Like, that is the temperature of the water. And the waves come at this particular frequency and size. So when you go in, it's like. It's so hard to describe it. It's like the ocean is, like, hugging you every time the waves come. I do not mean that, like, just as a metaphor. That's really how it feels like. You wander into the water and you're like, this isn't just a nice bath. This is like you're being fed somehow by the ocean in a way that I don't think I've ever felt.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, toss that in your TripAdvisor review

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

and ruin this town with more tourists? No, no, thank you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It being far away is why it's not ruined. Right. People are like, it's too much of a pain. I'm not doing this. Like, you have to commit to go there for more than a week. Otherwise, it's just kind of probably not worth at the journey.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Anyone is welcome to come, and people do come. We're in the low season right now because it's the rainy season, so there are not a lot of people around. But I hear during the high season, it's pretty busy, so it's not, like, crazy to get here. But, yeah, you really have to do some work to get here. And, dude, at night, it is even more insane. I have never seen stars like I've seen stars here. Just God's glitter spread from one end of the sky all the way to the horizon in the distance. And to get to the other part of town, I often cut down through this property and down to the beach and walk down. And every time I go and I come back, I just stop and stare at the sky for like 5, 10, 15 minutes, just in awe. It's just incredible. There was a full moon the other day and it hovered right above the water. It looked like the sun was coming up, but it's the moon. I didn't even know that was a thing. It's just I'm such a city kid, anything will blow my mind. But this is very, very crazy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I've experienced stuff like that just rarely. When we were in Patagonia, there was. What is it called? Super moon, maybe. So you would go up the hill and this moon would just be enormous. You know, the moon's usually like a pencil eraser in the sky. This was like full on gymongous full moon.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Huge.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Isn't it wild?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. And we were just kind of like, wait, is this. Are we safe right now? Because, you know, I'm sure we've had supermoons in the Bay Area and you don't even notice because of light pollution clouds. But this was just a completely, you know, nearest skyscraper, 600 miles kind of situation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's like storybook stuff.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When I saw your photos, I was like, whoa, is this like one of those Nano Banana AI remixes?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It looks like AI a little bit, but no, just the universe, dude. Definitely intelligent, but nothing artificial about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Wow. So what about. Do you. Are you surfing? Obviously you're doing yoga. I don't even need to ask.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I do do yoga on my own every day here. There's like, on the property they have a. An oka, like a yoga shala. Open air. And yeah, they're surfing. There's yoga, meditation, sound baths, which you would love if you were here, obviously.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Somebody.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think I got a. I got a WhatsApp message today saying there was a tai chi class in the oka, which I did not go to because I couldn't go. But yeah, alternative healing and massage therapy. You know, it's kind of like that

[Jordan Harbinger]

kind of town that tracks almost. It's a little Brazilian. Bali, maybe.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I haven't been to Bali, but there's probably some overlap for sure. But right now, like I said, it's the rainy season, so there are really very few people here. Just locals and a bunch of friends from Spain. And Portugal and other parts of Brazil. And everybody here, for the most part, is incredibly sweet. Like in a way where you're like, I just met you at breakfast and we're already buds. How did we become friends this quickly? There's something about the town. It's very sweet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Weren't you in New York before this? How was it going from Manhattan to rural Brazil?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So ridiculous.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I cannot think of a more juxtaposition. You wake up on an airplane and you're in the complete opposite type of place.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It was a little jarring, but also remarkable. You know, like Friday before last two Fridays ago, I was buying soba noodles at the Whole Foods in Chelsea.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My match. All right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. You know how it is taking the subway to go see. What's his name? Harry Potter. What's that? Daniel Radcliffe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, his name's not really Harry Potter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know. I just couldn't remember his name for a second.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just checking.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Everybody calls him Harry Potter, but, you know, Daniel Radcliffe is in this play about why life is beautiful. I think it's called every brilliant thing. My friend Brenna bought me a ticket and took me and I was just like, I was having that New York experience. And then the next thing you know, I'm like drinking acai in a hammock while I prep the show for this week.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, the only difference is the acai in Manhattan is $14.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right. Yeah. Here, you just pick it from the tree.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That' don't get too comfortable. I guess if those sign offs start slipping, you know, you taking away your

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

nomad card, you have nothing to worry about. The sign offs will stay fire, I promise you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, look, I'm going on a Disney cruise next week, so that's where I'm at. It's either going to be awesome or a living hell where children are bullying me. I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That sounds like another paradise to me. Maybe a more man made one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, look, I'm also maybe not going to wear shoes, so. Take that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They do have paved roads here on the cruise.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It may be slightly more commercialized than your hippie dippy Brazilian town, but I bet they have. What is it called? An oka. Is there a Goofy themed oka?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was gonna say if there's an oka on your cruise ship, it's probably like a Disney character meet and greet.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sir, can you step off? That's from Mickey.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I can't wait for you to come home with four new strains of rsv.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. You gotta collect em all. It's like Pokemon. I'm already mentally preparing for it happens every time.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Just take your vitamins Papa. Get some wellness formula. I've told you about this. It works. I swear to God it works.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, you know what else works? Locking myself in my room for the entire yeah, I know. I need to prepare for the Game of Thrones level picture dish that is waiting for me. But I don't know, should be fun. The kids are going to love it. I'm mostly maybe going to be reading by some sort of buffet and going down the water slide with Jaden and Juni. It sounds great. Honestly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm going to Honestly, it sounds pretty sweet. I hope you guys have an amazing time.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We'll swap stories later. You can send me more Sora AI caliber videos from paradise while I hack up a lung wearing my Mickey Mouse ears. And by the way, some of you may have seen on our Instagrams that the Jordan Harbinger show is the number two top performing podcast according to Oxford Road, which is like one of the largest ad agencies. They have some benchmark intelligence tool. It's an analytics company that ranks the top performing podcasts based on advertising conversion efficiency rather than just audience size. So that's awesome and I'll explain a little bit about what that means. But the reason we rank number two on there is that you guys check out all of our episodes and you support our sponsors. So I just wanted to thank you guys for being so awesome. It's literally your loyalty and generosity and trust of the things that we recommend on the show that shot us up to the top of that list. And it means a lot to us. It does right by our sponsors. It literally makes it possible for us to keep spilling all this top shelf tea every week. And all right, as always, got fun ones, got doozies. Want to dive in? Gabe? What is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, My husband and I have been together for 12 years and have a 6 year old son. Since the beginning of our relationship, his friendship with his ex girlfriend, let's call her Kelly, has been a recurring point of friction. He and Kelly dated 15 years ago when we first started dating. He attended her wedding alone, claiming she was a family friend, even though he was the only family member invited. He maintains that he stays friendly with almost all his exes because he genuinely likes them as people, a trait that I have tried to accept over the years.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's a contentious topic with most couples. Understandably.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He described his time with Kelly as A short term rebound relationship that he eventually ended because she wanted more than he did. He admits to feeling some guilt over the breakup, which I suspect is why he insists on staying in touch. While I've made peace with their occasional texting, this specific friendship always feels like a chronic sore thumb. Compared to his other exes, my husband is naturally outgoing and has a massive network, but his defensiveness over Kelly feels different. The situation recently came to a head during a business trip. My husband pushed for our son and me to join him in the city where Kelly lives immediately after booking our flights. He used her as a resource for kid friendly activities and tentatively scheduled a dinner for both our families without consulting me first. I was not thrilled about this at all, but he didn't really leave room for me to say no without it being obvious that the change of plans was coming from me. I've always had the sense that Kelly was a bit judgmental about me from the beginning of our relationship. One time early on, my husband met up with Kelly and her husband for dinner during a business trip to that area, and she admitted to, quote, unquote, stalking me on Instagram to see who I was. This struck me as a bit possessive, as if she were trying to find dirt on me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, look, we're early in the letter, but people Instagram stalk people online all the time. It doesn't mean that it's malicious, I don't think.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I feel like at this point that's just a synonym for looking someone up, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. I mean, you can do it to dig up dirt on somebody, but unless she did something weird with the information or like, went 15 years back or whatever, a decade back in the post history, I'm not sure this is possessive or nefarious. I mean, you just like, oh, okay, they went on a cruise. Oh, she's pretty. Okay, she has kids. I mean, if it was kind of like one of those while waiting in line for Starbucks, whatever, man. Yeah, I don't know that alone. It's a data point, but it's not an indictment.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The dinner itself was incredibly uncomfortable for me at the start. Kelly ignored my clear body language and forced a hug on me. I'm not a hugger at all, especially with strangers, so I typically go in for a handshake. Then she and my husband spent the night catching up and reminiscing about their past. I wouldn't say they were outright flirting, but it was much friendlier than I've seen my husband be with just about anyone. I'm a quiet, reserved, person. And my husband is very outgoing and talkative. So when we're in social situations like this, he often makes an effort to include me and sets me up to join in the conversation because he knows it's hard for me to do that. He did not do that at all here. I forced myself to say things here and there so it looked like I was participating.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, this is so fascinating. These two could not be more different.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

At one point, they brought up a funny story that happened while they were dating. And offhandedly, Kelly said to me, oh, do you even know this story? I just kind of smiled and nodded and they went on with the conversation as if nothing happened. I did know the story. I know more about her than she would probably like. A few years ago, she confided in my husband that she had had an affair with her neighbor. I remember that they had a lot of back and forth conversations about that at the time. All of that makes the family friend dynamic seem implausible to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting. I'm actually getting the opposite read from that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Meaning if she's talking to him about an affair she had, then they truly might be real friends.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Let me think about it for a second. Because what she's suggesting is if she would have an affair with somebody else by telling her husband about it, she might be signaling, hey, I'm open for business, or whatever. But my first reaction was, oh, they must be really solid friends if she's trusting him with that information. I don't know, maybe I'm being naive.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, that's where my mind went. Like, if she wants to start something, something with him telling him about another guy she had a thing with. Not exactly a great look.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, like, hey, by the way, I've cheated on my husband and I'm probably gonna cheat on you. If we ever start anything, just put that in your pipe and smoke it. Keep that in the back of your head.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I don't know. I. That's. Yeah, I suppose we don't know, but I'm just not sure that that chips away at the friend label. Again, maybe I'm being naive or too open minded. And I feel like this might be one where we get a bunch of emails from women that are like, you guys are dense. Here's what she's doing. And you know, I'm open to that. I'm open to that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He could tell I was bothered by something after our trip, but he hasn't come out and addressed it, which is unlike him as well. If he sees something, he will say

[Jordan Harbinger]

something that's good, first of all. But he must sense that you're not a fan of Kelly's and he doesn't want to ruffle your feathers. And I can relate. I get that, man.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also wonder if he doesn't want to bring it up because he doesn't want to have to end this friendship if they really talk about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a really good point. So maybe just stay far away from this one. Ye olde rug sweep. That's the strategy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Something like that. So she goes on. I haven't said anything because it feels like beating a dead horse at this point. And I didn't give much pushback when the plans were brought to my attention in the first place. We are in couples therapy at the moment, and some aspects of our relationship have improved, but this whole ex situation has kind of pushed me over the edge. Why would this relationship mean so much to him if it were just a rebound relationship, as he states? What do you recommend I bring up in therapy about this? And what underlying issue do you think this brings to light? Signed, tightly wound and on shifting ground about this profound and confounding rebound?

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is interesting. So, first of all, sorry that your husband's relationship with Kelly has caused you so much stress, distress, confusion. I think these kinds of relationships, they can be challenging, they can be confusing, they're a little ambiguous. And if there isn't a clear understanding with a partner, if there isn't a ton of trust and very open communication around this kind of thing. Yeah, it can obviously create a lot of problems. And to state the obvious, sometimes these friendships really are problematic and unfair, and no amount of trust or communication would make one. Okay, so let's talk about Kelly. Honestly, I don't know what to conclude about this woman and her friendship with your husband. We only have your account to go on. Obviously, you're not a fan. So we're getting one angle here. Is she after your husband or at least open to knocking some boots, or is he interested in her? Maybe. Could totally be. I have no way of knowing. Are they legitimately just friends and that's all behind them? Also, maybe if you listen to the show regularly. You know, we believe in male female friendships. I know some people don't, but I think they're really important as long as everyone's interests and intentions are clear and everybody is on the same page. Great. And the fact that this was a rebound relationship for him, that she's with somebody new now, that she's talking to him about some pretty intense personal stuff

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

that he's having dinner with her and her husband. It's not just them. Like going out alone, having five drinks and staying out for four hours.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a good point. Yeah. I feel like if you're into somebody or they're really into you, you're not like, let's bring our spouses out to have dinner together where they can observe the entire thing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Correct.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Unless you're really going out of your way to make it look like everything's on the up and up or, you know, when you're secretly trying to smash. I don't know. If that's the case, then you usually wouldn't. You meet one on one on the DL, like, oh, I got to go pick up the dry cleaning and the Bronx. I'll be back.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. You're not asking them for tips about Legoland for your kids when you're in San Diego.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No. Unless that Legoland Rizz is tight.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

What does that even mean?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I don't know. Nothing, actually. Which orca show at SeaWorld do you recommend for my wife and my toddler? Not the panty droppers that most men who are stepping out are going to directly. So all of this, for me paints a picture that he and Kelly are probably just friends now. If they had a super intense relationship and it lasted for years and there was some weird breakup, like somebody got a job and moved, and it wasn't that they broke up for any other reason. Okay, maybe they're still pining for each other. That's a story. But I also understand that you're seeing some things in your husband that is giving you some pause.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think that's what makes all of this very tricky for her. Right. Her husband is outgoing. She's quieter, more reserved. He's very interested in hanging with Kelly. He's making plans with her without consulting our friend, which is an interesting choice. She feels that he's being defensive about the relationship with Kelly. And generally, he's much more social and friendlier with Kelly than with other people. But he's not making as much of an effort to include his wife. I mean, to her, all of that reads. Well, they must clearly be flirting when she doesn't understand these qualities in her husband.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. But anything out of the ordinary for him, even if it doesn't suggest flirtation or adultery, that feels loaded for her somehow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And that's kind of what I'm getting at. Like, we. We cannot know for sure what is in her husband's heart. What's in Kelly's heart. She might still be into him and he's not. He might be into her, but she's not. They both might be into each other, they might both be legitimate friends who just really get along well. But putting that question aside for a moment, there's obviously something about Kelly that is meaningful to him. She gives him something or draws certain qualities out of him, including this openness and exuberance that rubs his wife the wrong way. Or maybe Kelly represents an important time in his life or they have a certain connection or rapport that has lasted all these years. Presumably he does with her too. Maybe in the way that he listens and talks things out with her. Like this whole thing with the neighbor, even if that isn't romantic, that does not sit well with our friend. And I'm very curious to understand why

[Jordan Harbinger]

she sounds, and I mean this in the most non judgmental way possible because I can really understand where she's coming from. She sounds a little bit insecure or envious and maybe threatened. But in this one particular narrow instance,

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I hear that too, and I think I can understand. I have to imagine that a few things are contributing to that. She might be looking at her husband, be super funny and talkative with her and go, like, who is this guy? Like, are you flirting right now? I haven't seen this part of you in a while or ever. Are you into her? What about me? Like, why aren't you like this with me? And I can understand why that might make her feel weird.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that, to me, largely hinges on communication. I think, you know, when a spouse is being respectful of you, I think you when his spouse is hiding something. So that does seem like one thing. He could get better at talking to her about all this, what she means to him, what that brings up for both of them.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She might also be going, do you even know why this person matters so much to you? Like, is this a meaningful friendship? Is it just, I don't know, feeding your narcissism? Like, what's the deal here?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a fair question.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, she said her husband is super outgoing. So I have a feeling he's more naturally in touch with his social side, his narcissist, his healthy narcissism, than she is more at home with it is maybe a better way to put it. Now, there's nothing wrong with that inherently. But if he's not totally clear on what he's getting out of this friendship, if it is something a little questionable, whether it's attention or validation or just a certain kind of social contact that might blur the lines a little Bit that could be potentially problematic even if they are not, you know, having an affair or moving toward having an affair.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, stuff goes into an emotional affair pretty quick before, you know, sometimes, I mean, there's, you know, you could dangerously veer into territory where there's something vaguely romantic about it, even if it's not sexual per se.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. But again, that's where the self awareness and the communication do make all the difference.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But again, she might also be particularly activated by Kelly because Kelly's kind of the opposite of her in many ways. Right. She said it herself.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. And that was your original point, that that might be where she's feeling some insecurity. We don't really know her, but she's outgoing, she's friendly. She apparently takes great interest in her husband's life, including looking up his wife online, which felt weird to, but might just be her wanting to get to know her. Also, she's a hugger. I thought that was really interesting.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That little detail is fascinating. I'm not sure how much to read into that, but when she said she ignored my body language, she forced a hug on me. I'm not a hugger. I go in for the handshake. I was thinking, I mean, is that so bad? She sounds pretty nice. It reminds me of A funny Story. You know what it reminds me of? A couple things. One, Susan Cain, who wrote a book about the power of introverts, one of the things she said was that introverts tend to look at other people's body language and communication, verbal and nonverbal, they pay closer attention to it. Extroverted people, they tend to be more focused on their own. This is exactly the type of thing that happens between introverts and extroverts. An extrovert gives someone a hug because that's what they do. And they're not looking at any of the. They're just tuned out to all these other channels where the person's like, I'm not a. I don't hug people. This isn't a thing that I do. And introverts tend to be much more calibrated when it comes to that. The other thing it reminds me of is my friend Vanessa Van Edwards, who is a literal body language expert. She was pitching, I think, a TV show to, you know, let's. Let's say Netflix. I don't know really know who it was, but let's say Netflix. And she's go. She goes in, she meets this guy after talking with him on email a bunch, and she goes, oh, My God, are you a hugger? And goes. And gives him a hug in the. As she's going in for the hug, he goes, no, absolutely not. I'm not a hugger at all. And she just is like, I'm over. I've already committed to the hug. And, like, basically gives this limp noodle guy who's. It's like Pepe Le Pew. Remember where he's, like, snuggling up on the cat, the skunk. And she's just hugging this guy, and he's like, clearly, like, I don't want anything with this. And he sits down, and it's so awkward, and she's just staring at the floor like, I just did that. I just did that. In this very important meeting to this very important man, oh, man.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

From the guy she's hoping is gonna buy her TV show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. So when. When she didn't, I guess, like, the whole. The thing. This is years ago. So I guess when it didn't happen, she was like. Like, was it the hug or what? And her agent's like, it wasn't the hug. Stop. Just relax. It wasn't the hug. And she's like, but it might have been the hug.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe I need to empathize more with people who don't like to hug. But I'm just like, what's the problem here?

[Jordan Harbinger]

What's wrong with you?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There's somebody, like, somebody can hug you. And I guess it could be, like, weirdly intimate or, like, way too affectionate too soon. But that's. But if someone's just going in for, like, a normal hug, also, this is, like, they've been friends forever. Now she's meeting his wife, like. Like, I don't know. Maybe just. I don't understand what it's like to be wired that way. What is the aversion, really, to, like, two seconds of contact with a person like you?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm not that person. I'm also probably a hugger, and maybe I'm making other people feel weird constantly, and there's a bunch of gossip about me. I mean, even if she didn't want to hug, the hug might have been a signal that Kelly wanted to get along. Well, a handshake is not. It's not crazy, but it's also. It's not super warm. And for a good friend spouse you've heard a lot about, like you said, I don't know, a hug comes across. It just comes across as nice. I'm having a hard time reading this as anything but that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

She's listing all of These things as, like, faux pas or points against Kelly. I'm just not convinced that they are. The more helpful question is, why does this person get under my skin so much?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So that's, I think, the important question. I think it could be all of these things in addition to her struggle to understand why her husband wants a friend like this in general.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's funny, the more we talk about this, the more I feel like Kelly and her behavior are kind of the least of it. Whatever Kelly does, she has to be hitting our friend here in some vulnerable spots to be working her up like this. I'm not saying that she's automatically wrong or entirely wrong. I'm not trying to, like, subtly gaslight her that her, you know, if her spidey senses are going, something is not right here. This feels off. But, you know, spidey senses or whatever are tricky. I think she's bringing a lot to this equation. And what's especially tricky is all of these things can be true simultaneously.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. Kelly could be a little inappropriate and. And they could just be friends, or her husband could be a little overly involved with this woman, and our friend here might be feeling especially insecure about that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. It is quite complicated.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So about what you should bring up in therapy. And by the way, I'm so glad you guys have that space together. I was very relieved to hear that. In the question, what you should bring up is sharing the feelings that the Kelly situation is bringing up for you, not as facts, but as data. In other words, not going, I'm insulted and hurt about your friendship with Kelly and you need to end it. But maybe saying something like, like, your friendship with Kelly makes me feel hurt and insulted, and here's why. And then delving into that with your therapist and exploring it with your husband. On a related note, talking about the parts of you that are getting activated by Kelly. For example, this quiet and reserved quality, your formality, the differences between you and your husband in the socializing department. I think all of that is relevant. Another thing you might want to do is ask your husband in session about his relationship with Kelly. Really give him space to talk about it openly. Like, we were just talking about why she feels important to him, what makes their friendship worthwhile in his eyes, why he might be kind of defensive about it, as you put it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And, like, is he being defensive or is he being protective?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. What does he stand to gain and lose by maintaining or ending this friendship? That might actually be a good question to ask in session to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would also bring into session any earlier Experiences of similar feelings, like maybe in other relationships in childhood. Anytime something in the present echoes something in the past. I think there's usually something useful to look out there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. And a lot of listening, ideally for both of you. You trying to understand your husband? Your husband trying to understand. Dude, I just thought of an example of this happening in my own life. This is like 15 plus years ago, but I met a girl I became. We dated like once. Like, we went out on a date or two. And then I was like, eh. And she was kind of like, eh. But then we stayed friends, and then she met this other guy, and the guy was like, I don't like Jordan. I don't like your friendship with Jordan. And she was kind of like, well, that sucks. And he's like, yeah, you know, kind of gonna put it down. And she's like, maybe we can straighten this out. And then we hung out. And he was like, all right, I begrudgingly admit that he's nice, but I still don't like it. And I was like, you know what? I'm not trying to ruin your relationship. Call me in a year, and he'll probably be like, whatever, this is fine. Right? Cause when he's more secure with you guys. And then a few months later, we all met up and I was like, oh, I'm so glad to see you guys. You know, Nick, I'm. You know, I'm glad that. Because I know there was, like, some sort of issues. I don't know much about it because I didn't want to, like, out her. And he's like, no, here's what happened. My ex cheated on me. And you remind me so much of this guy. Not. Not anything that I did or anything. He just happened to be, like, somewhat similar to me in certain ways that were just random. And he basically projected all of that onto me and onto his relationship. And he was like. Once I sort of became conscious of all that, he's like, I just re. This whole thing is just. It doesn't even make sense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It doesn't even matter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So what? Your voice reminds me of a person that my ex girlfriend used to hurt me. It literally had nothing to do with me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's really sweet that you guys were able to talk about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We're all friends now, actually. It's totally fine. And he was, like, almost embarrassed. And I was like, don't be embarrassed. This is like the most human thing ever. You find a new relationship, you like, and I remind you of somebody. And it's not like I was just randomly Friends with her. Like, I'd already gone out with her twice. So there was, like. It started with a little bit of romance. So it's not. He wasn't totally off his rocker thinking, like, something could happen. It's just that he. Instead of it being a 1% chance, he dialed it up to 80 in his head. And then once it was like, no. Really? No. He was like, oh, okay, I'm being an idiot. And they're married and stuff now, so it's all good. We're all friends now. I just thought this was very interesting. It's just a lot of this reminds me of that. Like, it just. I was pushing all the right buttons in him inadvertently, and it. It just. Just wasn't my fault, really.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's almost a simpler situation than the one we're dealing with here. Just because he's bringing a lot to the equation and he was projecting a lot. And in here, I don't know, the math is messier somehow. But what's so interesting about this and about the process of therapy in general, I think, especially couples therapy, is that you don't know exactly where this is going. You don't necessarily know what the solutions to this problem are. Indeed, you don't even know how much this is a problem yet. I think that's the byproduct of talking about it in this way. The goal of therapy, and I think you're already onto this by asking what deeper issue this brings to light, is not necessarily to, say, get your husband to drop Kelly as a friend or put all of your anxieties about this friendship to bed. That might be where this leads. But what you guys learn in therapy and how you apply it to everyday moments, like learning to communicate better about all of this or appreciating how your respective pasts are playing a role in all of this, I think that's what's probably going to determine your outcomes, your decisions together as a couple. So maybe you get to a place where you understand Kelly better and you work on the qualities or the wounds that she's touching on, and this friendship doesn't bother you in the same way. Or maybe your husband realizes that there is something a little unfair or inappropriate about this friendship, and he needs to pull back from Kelly, and that's what settles things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

These are byproducts, you're saying?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Basically, yeah. I only bring this up because I think she's particularly worked up about Kelly right now, and she might be trying to figure out, you know, like, how. How do I get my husband to Reconsider Kelly as soon as possible when that might not be the real progress that she's looking for.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm with you there. But I just want to say if you find out that there's something romantic about this down the line, yeah. You'll be vindicated in many ways. So please don't misinterpret what we're saying. We're not trying to talk you out of your feelings. I'm not saying you're crazy for thinking this. I'm sure you have some good reasons for feeling hurt. And even if they end up having less to do with Kelly herself, again, even if there isn't anything romantic happening here, there might be aspects of this that are concerning, but this is a highly ambiguous story. And where there's ambiguity, there's often something that needs working out. Clarity, communication, integrity. So that is my hope for you, that you guys get to do that and then see where these pieces fall, including Kelly. And in the meantime, my other hope for you is you keep being curious about all of this. Most of all about yourself. Sending you a big hug.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, maybe not.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, my bad. I didn't read her body language through the letter very well. Sending you a big handshake, firm handshake, and wishing you all the best. You know who else wants to give you a non consensual embrace? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by 1-800-Flowers. Mother's Day really makes you think about all the moms in your life and how much they do. Obviously my mom, but also Jen, she's holding everything together at home in ways that just don't always get recognized. My mother in law is always stepping in to help with the kids and give us a break. And even our nanny and Jen's aunt have played such a big role in raising our kids, they're basically second moms to them. That's why I like giving flowers for Mother's Day. It is simple, but it actually means something. It's a way of saying, hey, I see you, I appreciate you. I had a bouquet from 1-800-flowers sent to the studio and the flowers were fresh, vibrant, carefully packaged. Any of the moms in our life would light up getting something like that. And for more than 50 years, 1-800-Flowers has nailed the details. Everything is picked at peak freshness and backed by a freshness guarantee. And right now, when you order one dozen roses, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen for free. Twice. The flowers for the mom who gives everything. And if you're cutting it close, like a lot of us do, they've got same day delivery. Mother's Day is Sunday, May 10, and bouquets are selling out fast. Trust me. Don't wait to claim your double roses offer before they're gone. Visit 1-800-flowers.com jhs that's 1-800-flowers.Com jhs 1-800-flowers. Com jhs this episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, they usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land. But the flight is part of the experience too. Just like a great hotel can shape an entire trip, so can a great flight. That's exactly what Lufthansa Allegris is built around. On a long haul route, comfort matters more than people realize. If you're cramped, tired, and can't relax, you feel it the second you land. But when a flight is comfortable, you can actually stretch out, rest, work, or just enjoy the ride. It changes the whole trip. I was thinking about that on my recent intercontinental Lufthansa flight. I got so comfortable I honestly didn't want the flight to end. Which is not something you say very often after a long international trip trip. That's why Lufthansa Allegris stands out. It's built around the idea that people travel differently. Lufthansa Allegris Business Class has five seat options. You've got the suite, the privacy seat and the extra long bed, the extra space seat and the classic seat so you can choose what works for you. And that's what I like most. It feels elevated, but still practical. More privacy, more comfort, more thoughtful design for the way people actually travel. Now visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris. All it takes is a ya. Limited availability on select routes. More routes coming soon. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are on the website, searchable and clickable jordanharbinger.com deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hey guys, I'm a mechanical engineer and I started listening to the show a year and a half ago on the recommendation of a co worker who started listening to more Life and Psychology podcasts when he began therapy. I know you guys recommend therapy often, and even though people give you crap for it sometimes, I appreciate it. I just started therapy for the second Time in my life, it's been helpful, but I'm still figuring out exactly what I'm doing there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah, that's kind of me every time I start therapy. I think it's part of the process, I think.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But I'm a little confused by something you guys sometimes recommend, which is sticking with therapy for a long time, even after you've resolved the thing that brought you there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Do we say that? I don't know if I do that, Gabe. Is that a you thing?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I. I don't know if I have said exactly that. I'm sure we have. Maybe it's mostly me, actually. We've talked about maybe how rewarding it can be to work with a therapist for a long period of time as you continue to evolve, you know, like, new problems present themselves, new questions come up, the relationship deepens and it grows and all that. So maybe stuff like that I think we have said.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I agree with that in principle. Everyone's different, though. Depends on your goals, I suppose, and how much you enjoy paying someone to listen to you complain about your mom for. For 12 and a half years.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe I'm being too literal or something, but I went to therapy to work on some very concrete things. Some professional challenges and moderate anxiety. And once I make progress on those things, I'm not sure that I would stick with therapy. In fact, the goal for me is to not be there forever or even for a long time. But is that wrong? Am I missing something? What value does therapy have beyond working on your main goals? Problems. Signed. Hoping to get off the couch once I'm done saying ouch.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Really good questions. So it's funny, I'm probably actually more in our friend here's camp than I am in Gabe's. Or what I assume Gabe would say about this. Let's see, I've been in therapy a few times in my life. I genuinely believe in it. I wouldn't recommend it otherwise. But obviously if you're there, you're there to work on something and hopefully you make progress. I've known people, I think we've heard from people here on the show who spend months or years in therapy without making real progress on their goals. And that's obviously a problem. At a certain point, you're either good or it's not a good fit. But just like we were saying, new stuff kind of always comes up. So you might begin therapy to figure out your, I don't know, your career, or you're working on your anxiety and you make some progress, and then new stuff comes up and you get a new boss and you start a new relationship because you're less anxious and you have more energy to start a new project, whatever it is. And suddenly there's all this new stuff to talk about that could be really helpful.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, totally. Or you go in to talk about anxiety and you realize that the causes of the anxiety are many. Suddenly you're talking about your childhood, or how people listened to you growing up, or how you made decisions, or what your relationships are like. Sometimes the thing that brings you into therapy is just the entry point, but it's not necessarily the main thing or the only thing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. And so as long as you're learning and growing even after you've made some progress on the things that brought you there, that's super useful. But I can't say I'm one of those people who's like, everybody should be in therapy for life. Absolutely no problem with people who do. I'm just a little more goal oriented, I guess. What about you, Gabe?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, like you said, everybody's different and everybody's interests in therapy and desire for that experience is different, and that's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with being goal oriented in therapy. In fact, you probably should be goal oriented to some degree in therapy. I think it can give you direction and it can give you a sense of priorities and hopefully you can measure your progress better that way. I guess one way to think about this is, is therapy about symptom reduction or is it about something more? What I have found, and full disclosure, I've been in therapy with the Same psychologist for 14 years now. It's just crazy. What I found is that therapy, or at least the kind of talk therapy that I've done, other modalities are by definition more short term, and sometimes that's actually what makes them very effective. But talk therapy, psychodynamic therapy, is by definition very open ended. It's very flexible, very associative of the canvas, can be very, very big, infinitely big, really. And so it kind of becomes like a tapestry that never ends. And within that frame, there are a lot of really interesting possibilities for what you can talk about, for what you can get into, for what you can feel and work out. And so, yeah, one goal of good therapy is symptom reduction. If you decide to start therapy because, say you're dealing with depression and you're still in the same place with no noticeable improvement years later, there's something worth talking about. And that is probably a moment to reassess. You know, you either approach Therapy differently, or you find a new therapist, or you find a different modality. But there's so much more to therapy than just like, getting rid of symptoms. And in fact, some really great analysts, there's this guy named James Hillman, for example. They argue that the whole curing symptoms goal of therapy can actually be a weakness in the tradition. And sometimes it can even be an obstacle to real growth.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Growth, huh? I'm a little surprised by that. I mean, I see what you're getting at, but if therapy isn't about making you better, then I don't know, what is it for?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Fair question. Let me rephrase. It's not that therapy shouldn't be about making you better. It's that how we define better is an important question. And how we get to better, whatever that means for us, is crucial. So this guy Hillman I just mentioned, one of his big arguments was that our moods, our pain, our neuroses, whatever gets in the way of our lives. He viewed these things as like, essential experiences. They're not ones to necessarily be overcome or avoided, you know, like put to bed. He thought therapy should have more respect for symptoms and not like, treat them as suffering to be cured, but as an opportunity. So the question that he kept asking was, what message is the symptom trying to relay to the patient?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I see. So he still believed in helping people get better, but he wasn't trying to just like make depression or anger or whatever your parents said to you 20 years ago go away.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. And by the way, this is just one interesting analyst out there. I'm not saying that he's absolutely right or that his is the only way. It was just on my mind because I happened to read his book and it kind of relates.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do agree that a lot of our culture, American culture, I mean, but in the west in general, we are very solution oriented. We want to know where we're going and we want to get there yesterday. Or is that just me?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes. And I do think a lot of our system is about band aids and shortcuts, rather than real solutions and real process. Also, once you get beyond symptom reduction, you know, being in a real relationship with a therapist, having the experience of someone taking a real interest in you and healing certain wounds or working through certain patterns in that relationship, that is one potential of long term therapy. And also contemplating, like, big existential questions, whatever they are, like, what am I doing here? What gives my life meaning? What makes me happy? You know, like, how do I cope with death? What do I want to dedicate myself to while I'm on this earth. I mean, so much of what we talk about on the show. So a lot of that is not really about symptom reduction, narrowly speaking. Although interestingly, these conversations can go a long way in reducing symptoms, in my experience. Anyway.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting. So our friend here, he's more of a symptom reduction guy, which is an engineer. That makes sense. He's like, how do I solve this problem? Am I making objective, measurable progress? And I don't know, I kind of. I get it. I'm that way too, for sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I get it too. And to be clear, I also love that he doesn't need to entirely let go of that idea. I'm with you. If you're not getting better in some meaningful way, then that's an issue. But my experience, and again, it's just my experience, I also happen to really enjoy talking. And that's me. My experience is that the full potential of therapy as a relational experience and as a kind of like existential sandbox where you get to play, that is extremely helpful and can be very productive.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I could see that. I also get the people who are like, just help me beat insomnia and learn how to stand up to my boss. I don't need you to ask. My mom has nothing to do with this. Even if it does, there you have it, man. You might find that the things you brought into therapy are just the tip of the iceberg, or they lead you to other questions, or your anxiety gets better and then it gets worse. And that's not necessarily a step backward. It's an opportunity to understand what made it worse and why.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And that's also a really important point, Jordan, because progress on therapy is usually not linear. So you kind of have to have enough time and space to take a step back and then take a step forward and see what's going on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Definitely. You can come in fits and starts, right? Sometimes you take a step back or, I don't know, step sideways and meanwhile you are actually growing. And by the way, I, and I think, Gabe, you'd probably agree you're not failing therapy if you go to it for a year or somewhere and then you stop. If you feel better, great. But maybe also stay open to how the journey evolves, which also depends on the person you're working with, whether they're a good long term fit, whether they want to work in that way. This is also interesting for me to think about. I might. Maybe I need to. I might need to start therapy again after my Disney cruise.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, those Mickey Mouse pancakes can be mildly traumatizing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I mean, it's the check that you get at the end of the meal that's more traumatizing. But I'm need some EMDR to get my sea legs again. All right, keep up the great work and good luck. By the way, you can reach us [e-mail] Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're trying to find the right boundaries with a sick but presumptuous parent, you're torn between chasing financial stability that'll keep a roof over your head or a dream that will nourish your soul. Or your BFF from childhood disinvited you from her wedding after a series of absurd conflicts, creating ripple effects throughout your whole family. We want to talk about all of it. Guys, hit us up [e-mail], we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And now for my favorite modality, retail therapy. Let's reduce the symptom of overpaying for stuff you need by getting deep with the amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Hiya Health. As a parent, one thing I think about a lot is how much ultra processed junky food our kids are surrounded by now. It's everywhere. It's a big reason we started using Haya. A lot of kids vitamins are basically candy in disguise, sugar, artificial ingredients, gummy junk. Haya took the opposite approach. Their chewable kids vitamins have zero sugar, no gummy additives, none of the weird stuff you don't want your kids getting every day. And they're made with a blend of 12 organic fruits and veggies plus 15 essential vitamins and minerals. So it feels like something actually worth giving to your kids. What I also like is my kids genuinely enjoy them. The first order comes with a cool reusable bottle and stickers, so they had fun decorating it and making it their own. The refills show up every month, which makes life a lot easier. And here's something every parent needs to hear. If getting your kids to eat veggies feels impossible, Haya's New Kids Daily Greens and Superfoods is basically chocolate milk just crammed with veggies. You just mix a scoop with milk or a milk alternative and they actually like it. We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best selling children's vitamin receive 50% off your first order. To claim this deal you must go to Hiyahealth.com Jordan this deal is not available on their regular website. Go to H I Y-A H-E-A-L-T-.com jordan to get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow to healthy adults. Hi, I'm Jade and I love Hyav vitamins. Hi, I'm Juniper and I love Hyavitamins. This episode of the Jordan Harbinger show is brought to you by booking.com look, if you got a vacation rental and you want to grow that business, you got to make sure people can actually find you. That's where booking.com comes in. It's one of the most downloaded travel apps in the world, and since 2010 they've helped more than 1.8 billion vacation rental guests find places to stay. That's an enormous number of people looking for places like yours. But here's the thing. Most vacation rental hosts don't even realize they can list their properties on booking.com and if you're not on the platform, your rental is basically invisible to millions of Booking.com travelers worldwide. After all, they can't book what they can't see, right? Once you list, your property gets in front of a huge global audience of travelers, which means more visibility, more bookings and more chances to build real momentum with your rental business. And the barrier to entry is low here you can register your property in as little as 15 minutes minutes and nearly half of hosts get their first booking within a week. So if your vacation rental isn't listed on booking.com, it could be invisible to millions of travelers searching the platform. Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach. Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen, get booked on booking.com by the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, Wee Bitwiser. It's a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you. Delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. It's a two minute read or less. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from the show, I invite you to come check it out. It's [e-mail] news.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

All right, next up Dear Jordan and Gabe, I recently retired and have spent the last three years as the primary caregiver for my elderly parents. My father passed away nearly two years ago at the age of 96. He maintained many friends and a positive outlook on life. Even as his health rapidly deteriorated in his final year due to a cancer recurrence, he would often say how lucky he was to have lived such a wonderful life. Just a couple of weeks before he died, he laughed and told me, the problem with your mom is that she has longevity on her side.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Savage.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He said it as a joke, but now I feel like he hung on as long as he could just to save my brother and me from having to deal with mom.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow, that is quite a thing to say about your spouse.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My mother is nearly 100 years old. Physically, she is remarkable. She takes no medication and can get around the house with a cane. Mentally, she's relatively sharp, except for some short term memory loss.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Amazing. What's her secret?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But she's become a total recluse and hasn't left the house in three years.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, well, maybe that's it. She's not putting up with other people's shit.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I live an hour away and visit daily to handle her shopping, cleaning and meal prep. Caring for my mom is emotionally exhausting. She can be very negative, particularly in the mornings. She frequently calls to tell me that she is dying or. Or too weak to get out of bed. Yet she has never actually fallen. By evening, her mood shifts. She becomes cheerful and loves reminiscing about the past. I've realized that she conflates loneliness with imminent death. Or perhaps she just says she's dying to guilt me into spending more time with her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's really tough. I'm sorry. I also wonder if the mood swings and shifting outlook are symptoms of dementia or other cognitive decline. I mean, that sounds. Sounds, you know, familiar.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Recently, I've been spending about half my nights at my mom's. I do this partly to cut down on driving time and to spare myself from her morning phone calls, but also because I believe she should have someone visit at least once a day, especially since she is spending more and more time in bed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. You are a saint, my friend.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I hold a comprehensive, durable power of attorney for her and manage her finances. So I know she can easily afford professional in home care there, but she flatly refuses to have, quote, unquote, strangers in her home, leaving the entire burden on me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's frustrating.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Very frustrating. My brother, who's also retired, lives out of state and stays with her when I go on vacation. He'd be willing to spend more time with her, except that she's racist and refuses to allow my brother's Asian wife to stay in the home.

[Dr. Rhonda Patrick]

Whoa.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, that took a turn. So, mom, has she's got edges.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Maybe that's what's keeping her so youthful. The racism.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's right. Asian hate just takes away those fine lines and wrinkles. Wow.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh boy. Okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Jeez.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I thought my mother had put her prejudices aside, but they resurfaced about 10 years ago when Trump's anti immigrant rhetoric seemed to make it okay to be openly racist. Around that time, my father pulled me aside to reveal that my mother didn't want my brother to inherit the house because she didn't want Asians living in there.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. What a weird thing to have to tell your kid. Holy smokes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He made me promise never to tell her we had spoken, as it was his wish that the inheritance remain a 5050 split with my brother getting the home and I getting the other assets. My mom regularly seeks reassurance from me that I will live in the home after she dies. I have no desire to live there, but I lie to keep the peace. Meanwhile, she talks about changing her trust to make me the sole beneficiary of the house to ensure my brother's family never moved to in. I continue to deflect, reassuring her that as the executor, I will handle everything and she needn't worry.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, honestly. Look, I. I hate lying, but in a case like this, a 100-year-old woman who's not going to heal her racism at this hour, this late hour, I think this is the right approach. Just let her believe what she wants to believe, reassure her, then do what's right and treat your brother fairly. Of course. Why make this a fight? You don't need that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm now at a crossroads. I love my mother and want her final years to be happy, but I'm realizing that she could live another five years or more. I have several vacations planned this year, during which my brother will stay with her while his wife stays with friends nearby. I dread what happens when those trips end.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I hear you, but I'm glad your brother is still willing to come even if his wife can't. That just really sucks for his wife. But you deserve some freedom too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I've considered trying to get her to sign a written agreement to accept in home care next year. She might agree simply because she's convinced she'll be dead by then. But if she were to live until then, I fear that her racism will lead her to mistreat any non white caregivers, resulting in endless complaints to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I didn't even think about that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That had not occurred to us. Dude, new one big lebowski yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Philip Seymour Hoffman in the back of the limo.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So good. Am I destined to spend the best remaining years of my life tethered to a woman who uses guilt and prejudice to maintain control? How do I fulfill my duty to her without completely sacrificing my own retirement? And the healthiest years I have left left. Signed. Remaining my mother's keeper when the cost is growing steeper.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Man, such great questions. Tough questions. So, obviously, I'm very sorry that you're dealing with this. Caring for an aging parent, it's part of life, and in a big way, it's an honor. Part of the cycle of life, part of our duty to some degree. But when caring for a parent comes with challenges like these, and there are so many here, the mood swings, the panic spirals, the hurtful words, the guilt trips, especially when there isn't another parent or sibling who can share the responsibility that can eclipse the joy of taking care of an old parent. And I imagine it must be quite a burden. So my heart does go out to you, really. Your mom is remarkable in many ways. We should all be so lucky. But she also sounds like a handful, to put it politely. So you're asking exactly the right question. How can you do right by her without losing yourself? And my feeling is there's probably a way to do both. It sounds to me like you've given your mom a lot. You're sacrificing a lot to keep her safe, keep her connected, keep her comfortable. And that is beautiful. When she goes, I think you're going to feel really good about how you showed up for her. But I also wonder how much you've thought about the degree to which you should accommodate her. Whether you've been as creative as you could be about making sure she's taken care of, given her, I don't know, tricky personality. For example, spending half your nights at your mom's house. I understand there are some very real upsides. The driving, sparing yourself the morning phone calls, wanting her to have company since she spent so much time in bed. But she's also really boxing you into that corner to some degree. By refusing to have in home care, by dumping on you with the phone calls. And I'm not saying it's necessarily conscious or entirely malicious. She might be a little senile and scared, and that makes her want to reach out for help, which I totally get. But what's interesting about that to me is it sounds like you're very quick to adjust your life to meet her needs and expectations and kind of in

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

every way when she's not really going. I wonder if this is too much to ask of my daughter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Clearly not. I mean, look, maybe she's getting older. Maybe that's senility, maybe that's entitlement moment. Maybe it's some manipulation or narcissism. I don't know. I hear all of those possibilities in the letter, but I do wonder how she goes from that to, well, I gotta be there every single day at a huge cost to me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's kind of where my mind is going. The whole I don't want to get her morning phone calls thing is a meaningful data point. She doesn't want to be woken up by her 100 year old mother crying that she's alone and she's gonna die. I totally get that. Of course.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, nobody wants that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Distressing. Yeah, it's heartbreaking, breaking. But is our friend especially susceptible to that message? Do those words get in very easily with her? Is it hard for her to gently stand up to her mom? Because there's a part of me that's wondering if she could say, you're not alone, Mom. You're not going to die today. I promise. I know this is scary, I know it's hard, but you're in good shape. Go downstairs, make some coffee, sit on the porch. I'll be there in the afternoon or I'll call you in an hour to check in or whatever it is. Is that possible?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So that's what you'd do, not go over there every day?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm not entirely sure. What I would do though, is be very mindful about how these words from my mom land with me. Like, how do I respond to mom and why am I allowing these words to affect me the way they should? How much choice do I have in the matter? How do I define my responsibility to her? Do I just respond to her very raw needs?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. She might not have included all of the different options she went through before she landed on this one, but I do get a pretty strong sense that she very quickly bent over backward for her mom after her dad passed away.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And by the way, so did her dad to some degree. With the whole, don't tell your mom we talked about this, but here's the real deal with the inheritance thing, it feels like everybody's kind of cramping around her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a good point. I can only imagine how many other conversations he sidestepped because he just knew she wouldn't budge. And they were so different, which is also fascinating. I have to assume that even he didn't really know how to bridge that gap in a lot of ways. But even before he died, I wonder if mom subtly influenced them in various ways. Like she said, she uses guilt and prejudice to maintain control. I have a strong feeling she did influence them because look how quickly her dog daughter picks up the cue.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that is a really good point. This didn't just come out of nowhere, right? And that's a hard message to ignore from a parent. But now we're back at the topic of those inner boundaries, right? Like, can she create a little room to sit with a difficult phone call from her mom? Allow whatever feelings are there to be there, Maybe some guilt or some sadness or just like a very basic distress. All of which, by the way, very common when caring for elderly parents. And then decide what her mom actually needs and. And what she herself can actually do. I mean, it's fascinating to me that she's always fine by the evening, right? She's a totally different person. But our friend is going over there in part to spare herself this morning phone call. So a good question might be, what exactly am I sparing myself from, Gabe?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because I have two older parents, one with Alzheimer's, as you guys know. I totally understand why this is so hard for her. You know, when your older parent suffers, it hurts you want to help them because anything less, you kind of feel like you're abandoning them, and it feels cruel. Cruel.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, yeah, no, I hear that. And her mom lives alone and she's very old, so I. I don't mean to discount that. And thank you for reminding me that this is quite hard. But I guess I still stand by this idea that there are many ways to respond to a parent, and there are many ways to help them. And her reasons for doing what she's doing for her mom, I do think they're worth keeping an eye on. I think there's a world where they change a little bit.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm also still bothered by this I won't have anyone else in this house thing. I hear a lot of older folks are like this. I get it. You don't want a stranger in your home. Home. But I also find it rather unfair that this woman is totally fine having her daughter drive over there an hour each way once a day, having her son come over from out of state despite the fact that his wife is not welcome in the home. But she's also going, no caretakers, especially not brown ones. I mean, that is just. What's the polite word? Presumptuous. I mean, gosh, maybe when you get old, you just stop giving a crap. But she is just asking a whole lot of her kids with, like, no remorse. Remorse whatsoever. So I'm back to my earlier question. Is there any way to reopen that conversation? You mentioned getting her to sign something. Okay, that's fine. It's not going to be legally binding in any ways, and it might be like your way of dealing with her stubbornness, but if she can afford it, and this is unsustainable for you, I wonder if you can say, mom, I hear you. This is not ideal. Living in the house with somebody else. I get it. But this is a lot to ask of us, and we need some help. Help. I know you care about us, too. So can we find a middle ground here? Can we give you a live in aid in the mornings or on the weekends or a couple days a week? You know, whatever you decide you need. Let's find you somebody who's respectful and quiet. Let's look for somebody you approve of and then call the staffing agency and be like, look, here's the deal. My mom is kind of racist, and it's weird and embarrassing, but there it is. So we need a white nurse or somebody who looks, like, white enough to pass as a white nurse. Look, I promise you, these agencies have heard it all before.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm sorry, I'm. I'm only laughing because I'm just like, I want you to make this phone call for her, and I'll make the call. Yeah, I just want you to have to, like, stumble.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Racist. She doesn't like Asians, and that's not the word she uses for Asians, but if you know what I mean.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I wonder if the staffing agency has heard that before.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, for sure. Like, they for sure get people. And they're like, this man is so sweet. And then he's like, by the way, no Filipinos. And you're just like, oh, never mind. Yeah, speaking of which, I wonder how much you've really tried her. If she just really put her foot down on that and you're like, all right, Mom, I'm gonna spend $30 in gas and four hours of my life every day coming over. And maybe you get together with your brother and you have that conversation as a family, so she sees that it's not just coming from you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I like that idea a lot, Jordan. I also wonder where her brother is in all this. It's interesting because he has some very good reasons to stay away, obviously because of his wife. But is he also watching all of this and going, yeah, you know, Lena's got it. Fine with me. Not my problem. Because that's not entirely cool either, I guess. I wonder, have she and her brother discussed that? And are they on the same page? Or did our friend here just kind of decide on her own to take this all on herself?

[Jordan Harbinger]

And is that part of the template, too? So, no, I don't think you're destined to spend the best remaining years of your life tethered to a woman who uses guilt and prejudice to maintain control. First of all, she's 100. Huge accomplishment. But in all likelihood, this situation is. It's going to resolve itself fairly soon. Sorry. It could be five years, could be five months, could be tomorrow. You just don't know. So keep that in mind. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I feel like such a bastard saying that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But both senses of the phrase, I think.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I should not be laughing so hard

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

now I'm thinking about it. We'll see where mom ends up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, the no Asians in my home thing might be a bit of a sticking point at the pearly gates.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

What if she gets there in St. Peter's Chinese?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, worm your way out of that one, Mom. More importantly, hey, you're not destined to do anything. The big idea we kept coming back to today, that was savage, dude. I. Anyway, the big idea we keep coming back to today was carving out a little more agency for yourself. Taking a step back, reconsidering your strategy here. There is a way to fulfill this duty to her without completely sacrificing your own life. And I. I think it involves a combination of asking for help, appropriately challenging your mind, mom influencing her, appropriately dictating some of the terms of your caretaking and keeping an eye on those inner boundaries, and making sure that your mom is part of your life, a very important one, but that you aren't allowing her to become your entire life. And that is your job. That is not her job. It's not your brother's job. You're already doing that by taking these vacations and asking your brother to step up, which is excellent. Sending you and your mom a big hug. A big white hug hug. And wishing you all the best. Maybe don't tell her I'm a Jewish guy married to an Asian lady, though. Yeah. And good luck. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, it is over there on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, you know what's definitely welcome in Mom's home? The fine products and services that support this show. All made in China. Probably. But whatever. She doesn't have to know that. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire that can help you grow your business. This gives me flashbacks to a nightmare hire in my previous company that really stunted the business. And even talking about it now makes my blood pressure go up. But the right hire is the exact opposite. Somebody who takes ownership, solves problems and helps the business grow faster. And when you're small, that kind of impact is massive. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes to find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you. So instead of sorting through applications, you spend your time talking to candidates who are actually a good fit. With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, Those hiring with LinkedIn are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for [e-mail] harbor harbinger terms and conditions apply.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

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[Jordan Harbinger]

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Which Is take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals. And if links don't work, if codes aren't working, working, you're not sure if they exist, email us jordanordanharbinger.com, we're happy to dig up codes for you. It really is that important that you support those who support the show. And now for the rest of feedback Friday. All right, time for the recommendation of the week.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I am addicted to Litvilla.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My recommendation of the week is Amex Offers. American Express Offers. What? This is anytime you have an Amex card, you can download their app. And in the app app, there's a little section called offers. And it's like $15. When you spend a hundred at Lululemon or whatever, there's a million of them. Well, not a million. There's some weeks, there's 50, other weeks there's 10. And I was like, oh, I never sign up for these. And you have to activate them or they won't work. When you buy something at Lululemon, like, it's not automatic. So if you go to Lululemon and you don't have the offer activated, you spend a hundred bucks, you spend a hundred bucks. But if you activated this offer, you get that 10 bucks back after the purchase, and it. It just works. And I was like, all right, let's see if this even makes sense. I don't even know most of these brands. Some of them are podcast sponsors and stuff too. So I'm like, okay, I know these, but I don't know how often I buy a new grill, for example, So I just do it every Monday. I don't even look at what it is. I just add all of them. There's no downside. It takes five minutes even on offer. Heavy weeks, like when there's 50. So far this year, we've saved like $900. Because you get these things where it's like, oh, you needed a new mattress and you actually got 250 bucks back when you bought that. Oh, gee, I don't even activating that. Or, oh, yeah, you bought smart glasses for Jen. And there was $100 rebate at Sunglass Hut for a minute, and it just got 100 bucks back. And it just. It adds up so fast that I'm actually quite shocked. So if you have an Amex card and you actually use it, grab the app, do a little calendar or task to do on every Monday and just add the offers, it's really surprising how much this adds up. I thought we were going to save like 100 bucks a quarter, 100 bucks a year. I didn't realize we were going to save hundreds of dollars per month on some of this stuff. And a lot of it's like food, groceries. It's not all just stretchy pants and mattresses and that's it. All right, what's next?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So, Jordan, a couple weeks ago we got an email from a listener who had a different view of the whole Ellie the entitled, selfish sister in law story. You remember that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, the self. She said she was a feminazi from Ireland.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A feminazzi from Ireland. Yeah. So her argument was basically like, open the aperture, guys. This might not be all the woman's fault. She was making a few different points in her letter. But our big takeaway was let's keep making room for the other side of the story in these letters as much as we can.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. There's always another side. We're all unreliable narrators to some degree. Even though I'm pretty sure I disagreed with a lot of that letter. It's always a good reminder.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. So it's in that spirit that I wanted to read this next letter, which is, well, another opportunity we do not get very often. This is a very unusual one. So the letter goes, hey guys, back in December, you took a letter from a 29 year old man who talked about his crazy mother and a little sister who now wasn't speaking to him. So just to remind everyone this was the guy whose mother had some serious mental illness. She controlled him as a child. She impersonated him with his friends and he ended up pulling away from other people because he was so embarrassed about it. And he eventually got away from his mom at I think 21 years old. And he was still dealing with the trauma and this feeling of being just lost and unprepared for life at like 29 years old.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. It was a very dark story. Didn't the mom tell him his dad was abusive and didn't want anything to do with him? And then he tracked his dad down and found out that just wasn't true at all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right. And then he helped his younger sister escape from the mom's control as well. But that apparently did a number on both of them. And the sister doesn't talk to him anymore.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Right. It was so sad. And then the mom is sort of MIA now. Right? He can't find her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. In the wind. So his question was, I know my mom is nuts, but I still want to have a relationship with her. Is that possible? And also, can I rebuild things with my sister?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. And our advice was, if I recall, was, basically, you probably did her a solid by getting her away from this mom. But for whatever reason, his sister's saying, I can't be close with you right now. It's too painful. And you gotta respect that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right. Just stay close. Let your sister know you're respecting her distance, but you're ready to talk whenever she wants, and that's really all you can do. Well, she goes on, I am that little sister.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Okay. I can't wait to hear this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I went three years without seeing my older brother after moving in with my dad. To answer your question, yes, we have different father fathers. Our mom took us away from our fathers. They never had a chance to be a big part of our lives and therefore never knew the abuse we went through as kids. For me, she basically kidnapped me from him while he was out of town for work. I was 5.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. That is just awful. This mother is terrible. So she did this to two men?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Two men. Growing up with our mother was a nightmare. As my brother described, she was very controlling. I watched her merge her life with my older brother and older sister sister pretending to be them. So I learned. I lied and said I had no social media. Since she couldn't pretend to be me, she created fake accounts and added my friends. She would stalk their pages, and if I was ever posted on them, she would bring it up to me as if she just magically found out. Sometimes she would use it as a reason to lash out at me. One day, I snooped on her phone and saw that she had been sending hateful, bullying messages to my friends over Instagram. Instagram. We were 12 years old.

[Jordan Harbinger]

My God, what a piece of work. Like we said on that episode, this is Netflix documentary worthy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, so here's the thing. The letter gets a little difficult from here on out. I just want to give everyone a heads up, listening. If you're listening with kids or whatever, just take care because it's gonna get a little intense. Okay? My mother would withhold food and water from me for up to weeks at a time. When I was really young, she would hide me away in rooms when my paternal family was around. I wasn't allowed to see them. When I got old, older, and she moved us out to a rural town about an hour away because she lied. They were bad people who wanted to hurt me, and she was just protecting me. She wouldn't Even let me go to my grandpa's funeral when I was 11 because it was my dad's side of the family. She would routinely lash out at me for no reason and would only leave me alone once. I had reached a point of sobbing so much that my face was numb and I was hyperventilating. Then suddenly she was so sorry and would say stuff like, I wasn't even yelling. Why are you so upset?

[Jordan Harbinger]

So, abuse, isolation, manipulation, gaslighting. She's a monster. I'm sorry. This is somebody who should never have been allowed to raise kids. I'm so angry at this Mom. What the hell?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I became so scared to do anything in my own house that I made my mother write and sign a note that said I was allowed to take a shower whenever I wanted. I felt so dirty in our house for quite a while. She stopped buying laundry detergent. Maybe not the biggest deal, but in our house we had various cats and dogs over the years. Years they ended up peeing and pooping in the carpeted house and my mom and her boyfriend didn't clean it. I didn't have the right supplies to do it. And our house smelled disgusting. I smelled disgusting. I distinctly remember my sixth grade teacher asking me to stay behind at the end of a school day to sit me down and have a chat about how I smelled. It was affecting her and the other kids in the class. This is so sad, dude.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. That's heartbreaking. So utterly heartbreaking. I'm so sorry. I would like to think, Nelson, now, you know, this happened in the 80s or the 90s. I would hope now a teacher would go, this is something I should report, not, oh, you need to take a shower and wash your clothes, young lady. Like, obviously something is wrong at home, you knucklehead. My God.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My mom was also a borderline hoarder. So in various spaces throughout the house, there were just piles of junk that sat untouched for years. On top of already being pretty isolated in a rural area. My mom's mindset was that everyone was out to get get me and that she was my only safe person.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh my gosh. Her own little cult. Unreal.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So I had a hard time trusting my own thoughts. I knew what I felt and thought. But then there was mom reminding me I was wrong. So perhaps I didn't actually know what I felt and thought.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's terrible. And fascinating. We've never heard from a child of a parent like this describe what it's like to be manipulated in this way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

How it undermines your reality Your very basic sense of self. Self, man, that is. It's just so despicable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is. That you would want to mess with a child like this. I can't wrap my head around this.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

By 16, I legit reached a point where I thought I was going insane. One day I spent an entire class sitting on the floor scratching the back of my hand over and over and over because that was the only thing I knew was real. Ah, it's quite an image, dude. I have always heard people talk about self harm as a form of like self soothing or release or something. Something. I've never heard someone talk about it as a kind of like grounding exercise. Like, I'm going so out of my mind I need to hurt my body because at least I know my body exists. Wild.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, man. Heartbreaking and fascinating. She's quite a storyteller. And I mean that in the best way is this is vivid and vulnerable, what she's sharing. I'm just so sad for her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The only reason I stopped scratching was that my teacher looked over and freaked out because I had blood all over the back of my hand and finger. Fingers. And don't get me started on being a daughter to our mother. The woman was giving me all kinds of beauty products by the time I was 10 years old because I needed to get rid of all the wrinkles I had.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bruh. In fifth grade, you can't buy a jug of Tide, but you. Your daughter needs oil of Olay. God dang.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's. I'm sorry I'm laughing, but that's literally. What? That's so insane. I don't even.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So insane.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm taking back. I wasn't allowed to go out and see friends unless I had shaved my arms and legs.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What is America's Next Top Model? I don't understand.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

America's Next Top Nightmare.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think more like. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Tyra, Kim Jong Il and that woman from Unknown Number all in one literal supervillain. Yeah. This degree of mental illness, this is what they study in psychology programs in college. Like the fact that people like this are just out there raising kids without any consequences and seemingly nobody's intervening. This is insane to me. But this is clear. Probably happening all over the place.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was 14 the first time my mom screamed in my face that I was the reason she wanted to kill herself. My existence made her miserable. So her mistreatment of me was just. Need I go on? Cause I can. It was just crazy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, I mean, look, if you did, I'd listen because this is weirdly. Fascinating, like I said. But no, we get the picture. I'm so sorry, dude. You. You just deserved so much more. So much more.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

When I was 16, CPS was actively investigating our mother. Finally. I'm so glad that somebody.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Finally, finally. Geez, ten years later, I wonder how that happened.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Did the teacher say something? Did she call? Did a family member call?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some friend was probably like, shelly doesn't have laundry detergent and her mother's a psychopath and God knows what's going on in that house. Somebody should do something. And then somebody finally called it in.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Whoever did is an 8 angel. So she goes on. When I was 16, CPS was actively investigating our mother. And the only reason I left before they officially intervened was that during one of our arguments, my mom's boyfriend got tired of us fighting all the time and told me to, quote, grab my and go. So the following weekend, my brother, the one who wrote you originally helped bring boxes of my stuff to my dad's house and even came back to our house when I knew my mom was going to start an argument with me. He was my support, my back backup. I haven't seen or had contact with her since then. I'm 20 years old now, so that actually puts this in the. In the early 2000s.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Not the 80s or 90s. Early 2000s.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I just assumed she was my age and I don't really know why I did that. The teachers should have known better. This is extremely disappointing. Like, what nincompoop sees a kid that smells like cat feces and dog feces and goes, hey, you know, maybe you should do laundry. It's like, no, clearly something is wrong at home. Holy smokes. What's wrong with you?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Who knows what teachers go through, but man, what a journey. I'm so glad you got out when you did. I'm so sorry you had to go through that, but good friggin riddance, man.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This absolutely.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So she goes on. As for my brother, I didn't just cut him off because, quote, he reminded me of our family. Unquote.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, this should be interesting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay, so again guys, this is a heads up for everyone listening. Things are about to get difficulty more difficult before. I just want you guys to know that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, Okay.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I won't go totally into detail, but the reason I didn't see my brother for three years was that once I was out of that up fog of my maternal family, I had time to grasp just how up it all was. When we were kids, I was a victim to my big brother strangulation Beatings, sexual assault. He did them all to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, not the brother.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Damn devastating.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this is all kinds of messed up. This whole family, family is just traumatized.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't mean to repeat myself. I am genuinely sorry for how difficult this letter is. Guys, listening right now. I know these stories can sometimes feel like, I don't know, trauma porn or whatever a little bit. And that, that is not my intention. I just wanted to share what she took the time to write. It's her story. She wanted to share it with us. I just. I hope we can do something helpful with it. But I'm just sharing what she shared with us. So she goes on. I still remember the feeling of him straddling me while I was on my back, back, laying down on the nasty carpet in the dirty room I mentioned earlier. With his hands gripped around my neck, watching the smile on his face grow bigger as I kicked and hit him faster and faster. And my vision started to fade and I thought I was going to die.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh my God.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I remember sitting on the bathroom counter in the morning before school, putting on my mom's makeup so I could cover the bruises on me. I remember him having me watch him cut himself. All this while I was in the midst of thinking I was insane and obviously in a bad mental state.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm sorry to jump the gun, Gabe, but okay, if all this is true, and look, she sounds credible to me, why in the world was her brother like, oh, my sister won't talk to me. I don't know, how do I win her over?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, exactly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

He just conveniently left out years of horrific abuse. What?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is kind of one reason I wanted to read this letter because that is, that is one big question I have about what he was trying to do by writing in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Does he not remember? Because he wrote in to theoretically get some sort of of like insight from us. But it's like, hey, you probably know because you sexually assaulted and tried to murder your sister. What are you confused about? I'm going to. I know. We're going to get emails from trauma specialists that are going to be enlightening because I'm confused.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So he was told through our mother that I didn't want to see him anymore. He thought that was mom being crazy and he was scared for me. So he took an hour long taxi ride out to our rural home and broke into my bedroom through a tiny window on the second floor.

[Jordan Harbinger]

What the hell?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I woke up to the sound of his hand feeling along the carpet because it was like 3am and the window was Right next to the stairs. One wrong move and down the stairs he would go. Half asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this figure coming into my room through a window I didn't think a grown man could fit through. That didn't sit well with me, especially given the state I was in.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, it sounds like a zombie movie. Somebody crawling in your window and sliding on the carpet. Also, weird choice. The window. You're not just to going to be like, hey, I'm here to check on my sister. Sorry, it's 3:00am I just. I thought it was an emergency. Oh, that's reasonable. No, you know what I'm going to do? Break in through the second floor. Like, what is going on here? What is happening?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Less than ideal entrance as your sister's abuser and aspiring savior. This is very confusing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yes. Again, a heads up text would have gone over a little bit better, but okay. He was trying to sneak in. I can see this story happening in my mind and it is insane.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I would also argue that in some ways my brother was perhaps still is, obsessed with me. There are three kids in this picture. My older sister who has the same dad as my brother. My brother and me, they are close, but my brother and I were always closer and had a stronger bond. He used to send me poems in the mail, some of which sounded like something you would send to a long distance lover.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, intense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If I had to make a comparison for our relationship, I would say I am Olivia Benson from Law and sv and my brother is William Lewis.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay, that's a Gabe reference because I've never seen those shows.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I actually only know this because my friend Brenna directs Law and Order svu. So I've started watching a little bit and I've pieced it together. So basically there's this plot line where this guy William Lewis, who is like a real monster, becomes obsessed with Mariska Hargitay's character, Olivia Benson, and he ends up kidnapping and torturing her. And it's insane. And she ends up surviving it and she takes him down, but she's kind of like scarred forever because of this.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. So quite a comparison. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Time to rewatch season 15. Get some secondhand catharsis, I think. So she goes on all this to say, I didn't just cut him off because he reminded me of crazy. He was part of the crazy. I was scared. I needed time. Understandable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I completely understand. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My brother and I have since reconnected, seen each other again after all these years. In fact, he's the one who sent Me. The episode where you took his letter.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Okay. I was wondering how she knew to write in, and I was thinking, oh, my God. She also coincidentally listens to the show and then recognized her situation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

But, dude, do you realize that makes this crazier?

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know what? That's a really good point. Because he's like, hey, this might shed some light on this totally confusing situation where I don't understand why you won't talk to me. I mean, I'm. Again, I am mystified. He left out all of this hugely significant stuff. The fact that he abused her, and then he sends her the episode, presumably in an attempt to rebuild their relationship.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

How did he think she was gonna respond to that? That's what I want to understand.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So this makes me wonder, and I feel bad because I'm, like, crapping on a listener here, but it makes me wonder how mentally there he is, to put it bluntly. I mean, if you told a radically different story about something this formative, which, given what she's been through, that's got to be creepy and re. Traumatizing, why would you send your sister the episode like, hey, hope you enjoy my story. Love to be close again. Give me a call. This is so bizarre to me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm afraid that all of this is just further evidence that their mom did serious harm to both of them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. Clearly, man, there are so many angles here. Carry on.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm in a better place now, too. I don't hold him accountable for what he did when we were younger. If we had grown up in a healthy environment, we would have been healthy too. If mom weren't crazy, we wouldn't have done crazy things.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a very compassionate stance. And look, of course you're right, but I'm not sure I would be able to come to that conclusion if I were you. At least not without a ton of time in therapy. You are. Are a very kind person.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm not as scared of him anymore either. During our time apart, I had my own experiences of crazy outside the family, and I guess that helped me build a thicker skin. I can handle more than I used to. I absolutely missed my brother, my mother, and my sister during the years I spent away from them all. But that time was necessary to process and somewhat put all the shit I experienced during the first 16 years of my life into the balance. Background. To learn how to exist on my own, to learn that not everyone is out to get me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, man, that's gotta be quite a process.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I always had hope that one day I could see My mom again, that we'd all get our ducks in a row, and then I'd come back and we could be okay. But as you know, our mom has disappeared now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Gabe, again, sorry to jump in, but I'm really struck by the fact that both she and her brother still want a relationship with their mom after everything she did to them. Because, of course, it's not my mom. So it's easy for me to say, but I would just be like, oh, my God. Never want to see this person again. They're terrible.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Another reason I thought this letter was fascinating. I think we talked about that on the earlier episode. Just how strong this need for a mother must be if these kids still want her in their lives.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And how complicated that relationship is with an abusive parent. Yeah, yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I mean, I get wanting a parent, but I mean, how do you get these ducks in a row?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do not know. These ducks are un. Rowable. Question if they're even ducks in the first place. Like, that's how far gone this is. This is just crazy to me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

In my brother's letter, he said that my leaving took a toll on her mentally. So maybe my leaving is the reason she ran away. And now my brother and sister don't have a mom anymore either, which they deserve. I think I will carry this question, this guilt for the rest of my life. Am I the one who ruined that for them? God, I'm so sorry. Perhaps I should have stayed for them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, man. No, no, no.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Nope.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Absolutely not. I am deeply sad that you're left with this feeling. I can't even tell you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You did not make your mother run away, my friend.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your mother ran away because she's mentally ill. She's unstable. She's not all there. She's fundamentally broken. Okay, I'm not to be reductive, but she is. And you making that your responsibility, to state the obvious, that is completely unwarranted. Understandable, yeah. But unwarranted. And I have to think it's a symptom of the trauma that you and endured.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The way you and your siblings feel responsible for one another is another complicated layer of the story. In a way, it's beautiful that you guys banded together and tried your best to protect one another, but in another way, I just feel like it's laden with so much guilt and sadness and these ideas of failure that are just not yours to carry. Dude, they're just not. It's so sad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The adaptation makes perfect sense. I guess I'm happy they did their best for one another. Well, I Don't know about her brother, but you get what I mean.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We don't know about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is something she's gonna really have to unpack and put to bed at some point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So she goes on. Or maybe it's self centered to think I was the one holding the family together. But mom always talked about how she wanted to leave her boyfriend. And once I left and it was just the two of them, I guess she had nothing holding her back anymore. I constantly wonder how things would be different if I had stayed.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, it's not self centered per se,

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

but it's like overstating her role, her agency in all this. Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, exactly. We talk a lot about how children, even children of relatively healthy parents, they learn to kind of contort themselves in various ways to secure their parents love.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The false self developing and all that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

The self that becomes easiest to love and keep alive basically. And part of that in a case like this has to be the idea that it was on her to basically keep mom in their lives. Hence the guilt.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right, the guilt. As opposed to anger at this mother for not being willing to stay in their lives and treat them well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bingo. This is one legacy of the trauma here.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I also have a feeling that wondering how differently things would have turned out if she had stayed, that might also be pointing to some grief, incipient grief on her part. Like exploring that thought as a way to grasp at this childhood she didn't

[Jordan Harbinger]

get to have totally like in that other timeline. She gets to have a mom such as she is, if only in her mind. And what's behind that? Grasping tons of sadness I would imagine

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

all event sadness, rage, regret. Poor thing. Dude, this is so intense. So she goes on. I still feel scared of everything in life. I've realized that I don't have a lot of control over what happens. So I've let go of the wheel and I'm trusting that the universe has a plan laid out for me and I'm just living it. Trusting where the wind takes me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting paradox there. Hyper developed sense of responsibility for having broken up the family. Total relinquishment of control over the rest of the her life.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's a really interesting point. So reconnecting with my siblings right now is just meant to be. I am hopeful that the three of us will only have good things from here on out and that together we can heal and have some sort of fun life we should have had when we were kids.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There it is again. God, this is tragic.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

We still have a long way to go in Getting to know each other again. But at least we can start by bonding over the fact that we have a crazy mom who abandoned her kids. Lol.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Lol. That did not see that coming.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Signed, not trying to fib or be glib. Just paint you a picture of my crib and why it's hard to be close with my sib. Although he did help me jump ship.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was not expecting the LOL at the end of that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know they're make a Hulu show starring Patricia Arquette about my family. Tongue out emoji.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, she's got. She's got a good sense of humor about all this. I have to hand it to her. I think this childhood, it would just bury most people. The fact that she's made it out this clear and articulate and apparently relatively stable is a mis. Miracle. So she must be very strong. Gabe, I don't even. What do I even say about this letter? Dude? I don't know.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I truly do not know, dude. I just had this feeling that we should read it. I just thought we had to.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm glad we did. There's so much in this story, but she's not asking for advice. So I'm just thinking about, okay, what can we offer her other than holy smokes, that was a ride.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The main reason I wanted to share it is she's been through something really extraordinary, and it's obviously done a real number on her and her siblings. And I just wanted to share her story, first of all, and acknowledge what she's been through. Through, for starters, because she's part of our show fam now in the strangest way possible, like through her brother sharing the letter. And she's obviously listening and really engaging. And so I just wanted to make some room to share what she's been through.

[Jordan Harbinger]

For sure. I second that. Also, this letter sounds like an important addition or maybe correction is a better word to the original letter from her brother.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like I said at the top, it's a topic we come back to again and again. But some stories like this one, really bring it to life. Like, we're always hearing one side of the story in these letters, and it can be very challenging to make room for other ones. Sometimes it's hard to even imagine that there could be such a different one based on what we're hearing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm gonna remember this forever. Like, as soon as we. Next time we hear a bizarre letter, I'm gonna be like, I wanna hear

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

from the other person.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. But in our defense, I could never in a million years have imagined that his sister would have such a wildly different story from his. I mean, I think we wondered about that when we heard she wasn't speaking with him. I think we both were kind of like, oh, there's probably more going on if she doesn't want to talk with the guy who saved her from this monster. So I guess we were onto it a little bit, but it didn't even occur to me that he did anything terrible to her, other than, you know, maybe pulling her out of the family in a controlling way or something. I was really expecting it to be a lighter version of things, you know, I just needed to get away from the crazy, not like, oh, actually, totally.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And this raises an interesting question. Uncomfortable question.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Which is, how do we know she's telling the truth? Now I'm all paranoid.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I know. Look, like you said, all of this sounds very credible. The details are so specific, and I cannot imagine why somebody would want to, like, make this up. To slander her brother anonymously.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, it doesn't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Also, I should have mentioned this earlier. She included some facts that I left out to let me know that that was, in fact, her brother. So she confirmed, basically, that she really is the sister, and she knows him by name and other identifying details. I meant to mention that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's important. Good. I'm glad. Well, that does change things a little bit, and it makes her more credible. And we're not just getting played by some. Somebody off Reddit or whatever. But still, if the thing we're taking away from this letter is how many stories and angles there are in any given situation, what would her brother say to all this? I mean, what. What would their sister have to say, the other sister, about their childhood? It's just sort of infinitely complex.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. Well, like you said, I guess I just want to take this as an invitation to do exactly what you said on that episode a couple weeks ago, the one about Ellie, and keep remembering that there's always another side, and keep trying to make room for at least the possibility of another interpretation, another theory. Because even when the person writing in is telling the truth, even when. When they are right, whatever that means, that's usually still not the full story, you know, and it's not easy to do in this format, but when we do, I often feel like we get a little bit closer to the truth, whatever that is, even if we don't know exactly how everything went down.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I totally agree. The other takeaway from this letter is, man, how resilient we humans can be. And also how vulnerable yes. She survived a childhood that is frankly, unimaginable. Abuse of various kinds from two different families members, temporary insanity, kinda manipulation, self harm. I mean, my God. And she's still here. Wounded, clearly, but alive, coherent, clear. I'm very proud of her for that. But what breaks my heart and makes me even angrier at this mother, which is a tall order, is how much grief she's carrying around this childhood and family, how badly she still wants to be connected to this disaster of a mom. And I get that. We all need, that we all deserve, observe that. And I worry that that's a legacy of the abuse she endured. One of the ways her mother continues to have a hold over her, both through her own efforts at control and through our friend's legitimate need for a decent mom. And I do think that's something she's gonna have to explore in a more formal way one day, hopefully soon. And how you work through that exactly, I don't know. But she's gotta do it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. To put this grief to bed, so to speak.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. This is not a mother who deserves the name, the label. I truly don't mean to pile on. I don't want to twist the knife, and I anyway. But this is a mentally, severely, mentally ill woman who was absolutely unequipped to be a parent to anyone. And I think our friend here knows that. But I suspect that part of her process around her mom and a big part of the grief that she's probably still in the early stages of, part of that is really coming to terms with the reality of her mom's situation, her mental health, her character, what she did to them, mourning that which might actually be a lifelong process to some degree. Degree. And sort of locating her mother in the right place in her mind and her heart so that she could move forward and build a new life.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Very well said, Jordan. And I gotta say, locating her mom is a fascinating turn of phrase in context, given that she's in the wind at the moment.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was about to say she's longing for this mom and meanwhile her mom is just AWOL off with some kooky boyfriend somewhere. If that doesn't say everything about whether this woman is a safe person for her, I don't know what does.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Obviously I do hope she can work with a therapist as soon as possible. I'm just gonna fall on that sword this way. I guess you fell on it first. I'll fall on it tw twice again. But I think she already knows that. It would be very helpful.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. I don't Know how you make it through life after a childhood like this, without that support? This might take some time. It's probably not something you're going to do alone.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So much more to say about this. We don't have a ton of time, but before we wrap, I just want to talk about this control piece. The whole, you know, let Jesus take the wheel vibe she described.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I found that interesting. So what's your read on that? Is that depression, nihilism, self protection, a symptom of trauma? What's going on there?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Probably all of the above and more.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I guess it's just this weird salad of concepts like, oh, my life was crazy. Now I'm just going to let everything, the chips fall where they may. I. I don't get it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm sure having a mother like this, growing up in a house like this, with all of this chaos and manipulation and uncertainty, confusion. I mean, it must really impact how you view the world and how much power you think you have within that world. Right? Like, I. I wonder if there's some, like, learned helplessness here. This might be a little overly simplistic, but if you grow up feeling like you have no control, like what you do has no impact on, for example, how your mother treats you or how other people see you, or what kinds of experiences you're allowed to have out in the world, or when you do try to change things, then you get punished or shamed or like, yelled at by a literal crazy person. I have to assume that that makes you go, well, nothing I do matters, so I might as well do nothing and just trust that there's some plan at work that's going to sort of vaguely take care of me and I just have to kind of give myself over to that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I can see math. I do worry about that worldview, though. I worry about the outcomes it's going to create for her. That's it's a little dangerous.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I agree with that. In a way. It's kind of touching that someone this hurt can hold such a benevolent view of the universe, you know, like, in a way that might end up being a huge asset to her. So. I appreciate that. But obviously that worldview can lead you to some very difficult places. The path of least resistance, you might end up involved with people and institutions that might not always have your best interest. Was a heart concerning.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, kind of no wherewithal to change those circumstances. I mean, this is how people end up in exploitative jobs, abusive partners, creepy dark cults. Not saying that's definitely going to happen. To her at all. But if I were her, I would definitely keep an eye on that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Keep an eye on it. Yeah. Especially because she did say that during her time apart from her brother, she had. What did she say? Her own experiences of crazy outside the family. So, yes, God knows what those were.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That jumped out at me too, man. I was thinking, okay, so more trauma happened because of, you know, crazy patterns and people and more chaos. I know she said that that helped her build a thicker skin, and I believe her. But I gotta wonder what kinds of people and experiences she's sought out or put up with because of this childhood.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I mean, building a tolerance for adversity is obviously important. And, you know, being strong, being able to cope with these feelings. Yeah, useful and necessary. But the layers of protection she's had to build just to get by, I assume are immense.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And how all this manifests in her, what she needs to do to find a new story and tap into new resources inside of her. I think that's one of the strands of therapy that could be life changing for her. Yet another reason. I hope she gets there.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

As for your siblings, man, I don't even know what to say there, really, in light of what you've shared with us today, I do not blame you for keeping your distance from your brother just for your own sake. Although, like Jordan said, you seem to have a lot of empathy for him, and I. I do find that remarkable. I'm just. I just wonder about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But they've seen each other again, which has to be intense, and I can't even imagine what that meeting brought up. I'm not 100% sure I would have even advised that. Obviously, it's her call. Of course.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Sibling sexual abuse is incredibly traumatic and very complicated. We've learned a little bit about it from our experts over the years. It's been a very big education for us. In a lot of cases, the abuser in question is both perpetrator and victim. And that must really confuse the picture, you know, like, how angry are you supposed to be? How forgiving are you supposed to supposed to be? Is it really their fault? Right? Like, do you condemn that person? Do you empathize with that person? Can you have a real relationship with them as an adult? Like, I do not envy the person who has to sort through all of that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, dude, this is way over my emotional pig. I feel like I'm using the word dude a lot because I'm. I'm on my back foot, man. This is way over my emotional pay grade. That's what it's for. But obviously something a professional could help her with. A real professional. Not just do not do podcast bros wearing jorts or whatever you got on down there in Brazil. Man, this letter just kills me. There's so much sadness here. There's so much pain. You know what? There's also so much hope and potential. I'm deeply sorry, so deeply sorry for the things that you've been through, my friend. I'm angry, I'm disappointed in your mom, to say the least. And I'm so confused and saddened by your brother. Although I do understand you were both victims. So my heart does go out to him too. But mostly today I'm thinking about you and I thank you for writing in and sharing your story with us. And I hope you know know that with a lot of hard work and resourcefulness and patience, there's a lot of healing and growth you can do. You've already begun. I hope you keep going. And I'm confident that there's a very different experience of yourself, of other people, and of life itself on the other side of this. Sending you a big hug and good luck. Don't forget to check out our episodes with Nicholas Niarchos on lithium and rare earth metals, as well as our Skeptical Sunday on bees. If you haven't heard those yet, the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It's free. It's not gross, not shenanigans. It's just stuff I Wish I knew 20 years ago. Build those relationships before you need them. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. You can find that at 6minutenetworking.com show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram. Gabriel Mizrahi if you want to feel jealous about going back to your office while he's on a beach. Beach somewhere. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear I on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview about the biggest threats to your health that most people never see coming. From microplastics in the brain to everyday habits that quietly chip away at your energy focus and longevity.

[Dr. Rhonda Patrick]

I think microplastics are a problem. Most people know generally what they are. I mean, these are like small pieces of plastic that come off large, larger pieces, and they get into our bodies, mostly through what we're ingesting, and they're in the air as well. And so they get smaller and smaller and smaller. They're called nanoplastics. And as the smaller they get, they become more dangerous in a way because we can absorb them easier. It's in our water sources. It's on the plants that we eat. So vegetables and fruits, because it's in the soil and they get on the plants. It's in the plants, it's in meat, it's in every. It's all over, over the place. Air is a big source of microplastic pollution as well. It's getting everywhere in our organs. But dietary fiber seems to prevent absorption in a couple different ways. Particularly soluble fibers, fermentable fiber. Prebiotics. Right. Those are all sort of interchangeable ways of saying soluble fiber.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Fruits.

[Dr. Rhonda Patrick]

Fruits is a big one. The skins of fruits, some vegetables as well. But you can supplement with it, like inulin. You know, there's a lot of these prebiotic fibers people take as well. Beta glucans is another one. The point is, is that if there's something you can do to prevent your body from absorbing it, that's the best. And try to eliminate these microplastics as much as they can. And the number one thing you can do is get a water filter for sure. Air filters in your house, water filters in your house. Those are the two top things that you can do. The reality is, is that microplastics, it's just air everywhere.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Catch the full conversation with Dr. Rhonda Patrick for the science behind it all and the practical changes that can actually make a difference on episode 1267 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

[Dr. Rhonda Patrick]

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