1324: Has "Vanilla" Guy Always Been Kinky on the Sly? | Feedback Friday

Summary

The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1324: Has "Vanilla" Guy Always Been Kinky on the Sly? | Feedback Friday
Date: May 8, 2026
Host: Jordan Harbinger
Co-host / Producer: Gabriel Mizrahi

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Overview

In this Feedback Friday episode, Jordan Harbinger and Gabriel Mizrahi deliver their signature blend of insight, humor, and practical advice as they tackle listener questions on sensitive relationship dynamics, career advancement, and building authentic friendships. The main theme centers around trust, honesty, and intimacy in marriage, using a listener's letter about unraveling her husband's secret sexual preferences as a launching point for an in-depth exploration of privacy, betrayal, and communication.

Additional questions focus on overcoming recurring job interview disappointments, navigating supportive friendships even when you can't relate to your friends' struggles, and a behind-the-scenes look at how Feedback Friday episodes are produced.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Cruise Stories & Social Observations

[01:01–21:32]

• Disney Cruise from Hell:
  • Gabe recounts his family’s Disney cruise - an upgrade “through Costco,” mass food poisoning, and learning about cruise ship worker cultures.
  • Insights into the mix of cruise ship staff (nationalities, generational divides), and candid reflections on their workload and living conditions.
  • Anecdote about interacting with a heavily-tattooed passenger (Nazi symbols) who, paradoxically, behaves kindly and politely—launching a reflection on how people’s surface and history can contradict their present behavior.
  • Observations on “Disney adults” and the pin-trading, gifting, and inclusivity that pervades the cruise.
  • Notable Quote:
    “It’s just as important to find out what kind of vacations you don’t enjoy as it is to find out the kind of vacations that you do.” —Gabriel [21:32]

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2. Main Listener Question: Is My "Vanilla" Husband Secretly Kinky?

[21:48–46:48]

Letter Summary

Married 13 years, together 17, the listener has discovered her husband’s secretive porn use and undisclosed kinks, which are at odds with his self-described “vanilla” persona. The husband indulges these preferences even in contexts bordering on the inappropriate (while at work, while caring for kids), and when confronted, responds with defensiveness or “trickle truthing.” The listener questions what constitutes privacy versus deception in marriage, whether trust can be rebuilt, and what to do when emotional and sexual realities seem irreconcilable.

Key Discussion Points

• Privacy vs. Dishonesty:

  • Jordan and Gabe balance empathy toward both spouses, recognizing everyone deserves some privacy in a relationship, but repeated concealment (“trickle truthing” [27:36]) erodes trust.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Are married people allowed privacy in this, or does that privacy only end up chipping away at intimacy?” —Gabe [29:36]

• Porn Use & Addiction:

  • Concern about boundaries: consuming porn at work, or while caring for a child, suggests compulsion and perhaps addiction.
  • Notable Quote:
    “If you can’t get through a workday or hang with the baby without rubbing one out to alien porn, then you might be flirting with something like an addiction.” —Gabriel [35:08]

• The Hurt Behind the Hurt:

  • The real pain is less about husband’s interests than the pattern of dishonesty, making the wife feel she never knew her spouse.
  • Acknowledgment that even full honesty could create fresh wounds, as preferences may directly challenge self-esteem or body image.

• On Body Image and Insecurity:

  • Husband's suggestion to try Ozempic (after his mother’s death) is interpreted as cruel given his private interests seem to contradict what he claims to want—and triggers major self-doubt.
  • The hosts carefully tiptoe around the body/weight conversation, asking if the listener’s hurt could be linked to her own self-image.

• Shame, Judgment, and Communication:

  • The husband's secrecy is likely rooted in shame and fear of hurting his wife or facing judgment.
  • Fixing communication alone may expose deeper incompatibilities; sometimes openness can make conflict more painful before it helps.

• Advice & Considerations:

  • Both spouses bear responsibility for how their feelings and needs are communicated and met.
  • Suggest working with a therapist, being radically honest (on both sides), and separating out issues of sexual compatibility from broader relationship repair.

Memorable Moments

• Playful but pointed banter about porn “genres” ("tentacle porn"), irreverent but used to highlight the emotional stakes. [32:44]
• Admitting the paradox: "Privacy is legitimate... and it can come at a cost." [36:51]
• Jordan's direct challenge: “Are you taking the best possible care of yourself? Not as a matter of aesthetics... but as a matter of you taking good care of you.” [43:04]

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3. Career Coaching: From Runner-Up to Winner

[46:48–57:30]

Letter Summary

A listener keeps getting to final rounds for senior roles but ends up as the runner-up, often losing out to someone with a specific edge (police experience, etc). Seeks advice on how to push over the finish line.

Key Advice

• Get Real Feedback:

  • Push for honest “off-the-record” feedback from interviewers.
  • Deconstruct interviews yourself for “tug moments” where you sensed hesitation.
  • Analyze who got hired—check their LinkedIn, background, how they differentiate.

• Narrative & Personality:

  • Make your narrative irresistible—show how you can quickly develop skill gaps or unique value.
  • Don't underestimate fit, warmth, and relationships—people hire those they want to work with.

• Leverage AI Tools:

  • Use AI (e.g., Notebook LLM) for interview prep—including generating custom podcast episodes about job roles.

• Networking Moves:

  • Consider reaching out to the person hired (congratulate, connect).
  • Maintain and build relationships in target organizations.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “Your story... is huge. It’s kind of everything.” —Jordan [50:15]
  • "So much of the job search is about luck. The best strategy is just to generate as many dots as possible." —Gabe [57:30]

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4. Behind the Scenes: How Feedback Friday Gets Made

[60:47–68:19]

• Listeners ask how Jordan and Gabe seem to recall episode numbers and respond in real-time.
• Revealed Process:
  • They prep episode references in advance (quick Google/text exchanges).
  • Sometimes Jordan responds “off the cuff,” sometimes it's a performance; often even after reading a letter, he surprises himself on recording day due to his “washboard abs” memory.
  • Prep allows for spontaneity: “It is the rigorous prep that allows for the spontaneity.” —Gabriel [65:14]

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5. Friendship & Empathy: Supporting Friends Through Depression

[72:12–79:30]

Letter Summary

A college student, upbeat and unfamiliar with depression, feels awkward in a friend group where discussing struggles is the norm. Wants to support friends authentically despite not sharing the same experiences.

Key Advice

• Validate & Offer:

  • What you’re already doing—expressing care, asking if they want to talk—is sufficient and kind.
  • If you want to deepen empathy, explicitly say, “I haven’t been through that—can you tell me what it’s like?” Listen and learn.

• On Fitting In:

  • It's okay to be different; intimacy doesn't require sameness.
  • Be aware of trying too hard to “prove” you belong via shared struggles; healthy friendships allow for both difference and empathy.

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “That’s what empathy is, isn’t it? Relating to and identifying with somebody, even when you haven’t been through what they’ve been through.” —Jordan [75:44]
  • “It’s okay to trust that you can have different mental health than these people and still be a valuable part of the group.” —Jordan [79:19]

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6. Quick Hits & Recommendations

[70:14, 72:12]

• Jordan recommends “paint your own pottery” experiences—simple, fun, and sentimental (“go overpay for a crappy ceramic bowl and it might just become a family heirloom”).
• Show shoutouts to earlier episodes, course recommendations (“Six Minute Networking”), and reminders to check out sponsors and the newsletter.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Trickle truthing. I’ve never heard that one.” —Gabriel [27:36]
• “If you can’t get through a workday or hang with the baby without rubbing one out to alien porn, then you might be flirting with something like an addiction.” —Gabriel [35:08]
• “Privacy is legitimate… and it can come at a cost.” —Gabriel [36:51]
• “Are you taking the best possible care of yourself? Not as a matter of aesthetics… but as a matter of you taking good care of you.” —Jordan [43:04]
• “It is the rigorous prep that allows for the spontaneity.” —Gabriel [65:14]
• “That’s what empathy is, isn’t it? Relating to and identifying with somebody, even when you haven’t been through what they’ve been through.” —Jordan [75:44]

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Flow & Tone

• Authentic, Playful, and Candid: The co-hosts mix irreverent humor (often at their own expense) with vulnerability and intellectual honesty, creating an atmosphere where complex and awkward topics feel approachable.
• Deeply Analytical: Even when riffing, Jordan and Gabe dig into emotional nuance, social psychology, and the layered realities of relationships.
• Supportive and Nonjudgmental: They continually remind listeners that imperfections and tensions are normal, and that seeking help, learning from pain, and nurturing curiosity lead to growth.

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Resources & Episode Recommendations

• Past episodes mentioned:
  • David Royce (Entrepreneurship & Sales Psychology) [03:05]
  • Dr. Courtney Conley (Walking and How to Do it Right) [03:05]
  • Todd Rose (Collective Illusions: Social Psychology) [03:05]
  • Skeptical Sunday: The Moon [03:05]
• Community/networking resource: Six Minute Networking—6minutenetworking.com [54:27, 55:00]
• AI tool referenced: Notebook LLM [46:48]
• Subreddit for discussion: r/jordanharbinger [67:15]

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Conclusion

This Feedback Friday is emblematic of The Jordan Harbinger Show’s style: honest, incisive, and compassionate, with a mix of meaningful advice and self-aware humor. The central listener story unpacks the thorny intersection of privacy, trust, sexuality, and the stories we tell—or withhold—from those we love. The co-hosts handle sensitive issues with both care and directness, model open-minded dialogue, and invite listeners to reflect on their own lives, relationships, and growth.

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For full transcripts and supporting resources, visit jordanharbinger.com.

Transcript

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know what I realized the hardest part about building a website isn't making it look good. It's getting what's in my head onto the page. But I've been playing with the new WIX Harmony editor and I'm impressed. You can literally just tell it what you want. Or if you're picky like me, jump in and move things around yourself. The nice part is you can hop between AI and hands on editing so you end up with a site that actually looks the way you pictured it. Try it out for [e-mail] Harmony

[Unknown Speaker]

and

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Liberty. Liberty.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Liberty.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Liberty.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This episode is brought to you by Lufthansa. Lufthansa Allegres is an innovative elevated travel experience across all classes, focusing on each person with their own individual and situational needs. Look forward to your own feel good moment above the clouds. Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris. All it takes is a yes. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer Mike My Woody Chasing waterfalls. My connoisseur of cacao, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, Gaby Cashewer is. That's what they call me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Amazing waterfall. Pick on the gram. My guy's like, damn, that's a legitimate waterfall. Look at that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You know, the worse the roads, the better the waterfalls. That is one of many things I. I have learned from Bahia.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, it almost like there's a deeper metaphor in there or something somewhere.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, really? Maybe you can explain it to me one day.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

No, you. You got to figure out some things on your own, Gabe.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm trying, bro. There's so much to learn. I'm learning a lot.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I now have that TLC song stuck in my head, like, don't go chasing. What a f. Please stick to the rivers and the lakes and remember that one. And then it was like somehow about aids. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah, yeah. First album I ever bought, by the way. Crazy, Sexy, cool. What?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

10 out of 10, man. Banger of an album.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That was so good. Well, I'm in Rio de Janeiro now, so that's basically what I'm doing for a week. Sticking to the rivers. I'm used to not getting A's, just to be. Just to be clear.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, so far we'll see.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm wearing shoes again, so that should help.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, but good idea. I do.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I do understand this place more. This place is like if Tel Aviv, Louisiana and Mexico City had a baby. That's how I describe it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow. So it's full of hipster Jewish Latinos buying $18 smoothies at Erewhon.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, no, no. I think you're thinking of Santa Monica.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's. That's what it is. Wilshire, west of the 405. My bad.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's been a transition, dude. I've gone from contemplating the stars every night to renting Uber E bikes to get to hot yoga and Copacabana. So very.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow. Vibe shift.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Vibe shift. Truly. You know what else is a vibe shift?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Our transitions. Because on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. And we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Former jihadis, drug traffickers, CEOs, rocket scientists, astronauts. We had a busy week this week. I've no, I don't think I've ever released this many episodes in one week. Well, through the magic of poor planning, we had five episodes. Monday we had David Royce. He started multiple companies, had huge exits, talked sales and sales psychology. I thought this was quite an interesting, if not a little bit offbeat. For this show anyway episode, we also had Dr. Courtly Conley on walking and how you're doing it wrong, which is a little bit alarming for those of us out there that are bipeds. For we also had my friend Todd Rose on Collective Illusions. This is some fascinating social psychology. And we had a skeptical Sunday on the moon. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and never stick to the rivers and the lakes that we're used to. Feedback. Friday always takes us to new bodies of water.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Speaking of which, you just got back from your Disney cruise, didn't you?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, God.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hey, show fam.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's producer Jace here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

If you want to take A skiff across the choppy waters of Jordan and

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Gabe's latest ridiculous adventure stories.

[Jordan Harbinger]

You can jump to 20 minutes and 20 seconds. Enjoy the show.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. The Disney cruise from hell, as we now call it in our house. Oh, no. Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That bad?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Not all bad, but a real mixed bag. And I know this is going to be like, boo hoo, first world problems,

[Jordan Harbinger]

but I have notes on the premium Disney cruise I took. Okay, but I'm just going to go ahead and guess that you. What new strains of plague did you acquire at sea this time?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. So much happened. So we booked a Fortnite cruise and we bought the. I wanted to check if there was a last minute upgrade and ChatGPT and Google are like, they don't do this. And everyone's like, disney doesn't do that. But we got it through Costco.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hold my beer.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Hold my beer. Costco, they buy a block of room. So I was like, call Costco and see if there's any last minute rooms. And they're like, yeah, we have these crazy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's where I go when I want premium experiences.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Here's the thing though, that's the thing. Like I thought Costco cruise. What? What's happening? They're like, yeah, we bought a block of rooms and we have these two ridiculously overpriced rooms that surprise, nobody paid $15,000 for, for the four day cruise. And I was like, if you give it to me for 1800 bucks, I'm in. I basically just lowballed them and they were like, you got it. Because I was like, you have to

[Jordan Harbinger]

buy them in bulk. Like, did you have to buy a.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I didn't have to buy a pallet of rooms, No. I just bought the one and they were like, you can choose whichever one you want. I was like, wow, this is great. So we ended up with this room that had like fancy boarding, early boarding, whatever, and like room services all included and what? Anyway, you get on and we get escorted to enjoy our first meal on the ship. This place called Triton's because they're all named after Disney, folks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is it 180? Small size of Frosted Flakes. Is that the breakfast?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. No, this was like really good looking food. And they're like, here's your steak and your mushroom thing. And I was like, this is delicious, by the way. This experience is unique to our family. I want to say it's not. Disney's customer service was amazing. There was a lot of amazing things on the boat, but I immediately got food poisoning after that first meal. Not just like, oh, that was a little rough. I've got some stomach pressure. No, like, keeled over. Stomach pain. Bowling ball in your gut. Puked eight times. Explosive. Everything. And I didn't eat for two days.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, no.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I couldn't look at food. And it wasn't just me. Jen's like, you're being a drama queen. You're gonna stick me with the kids on the first day of the cruise so you can lay around in bed. And then like, three hours later, she comes back into the room just to see me. Just, like, projectile, you know what? Everywhere. Like, then she's like, move. I got. I'm up. And I was like, oh, you got sick too? Because I made her try it. And it's like, this is so good. You gotta have some.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, how the toilets have turned.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, indeed, indeed. So we were like, thank God we upgraded and got two bathrooms in this state room. And then so, like, basically I just

[Jordan Harbinger]

playing musical toilets with your family. That's so intense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So I just like, puked out everything that I could, and I was like, I think I'm done. So I took a shower and took the kids out of the room so that Jen could just, like, you know, have the worst night of her life, poor thing. And, like, skip dinner, skip the show, go to bed. Woke up in the morning, I felt, like, somewhat human. She did not. I took the kids to the kids club. They were there for like, a couple hours, and they're like, this sucks. We want to leave. And I was like, great. The whole. The thing that everyone sold us on, which is that your kids are never going to want to leave this kids club, and you get all this alone time with your adult friends and your wife, whatever, that just wasn't happening. They're like, this sucks. We want to color in the room. We don't. Like, the people at the kids club. Like, they. They kept trying to make them do activities, and they were like, we just want to play with the blocks or whatever. They're like, no, we're going to make slime. We're going to color or not, whatever it was. And they were just like, we don't want to, like, cut out paper dolls. Want to, like, play dodgeball or whatever they were doing. I don't know. So, like, all the kids are like, we want to go swimming. And I was like, all right, fine. So took him to the pool. Anyway, it was just a nightmare because Jen got so much sicker than me, even though she only had, like, a couple of bites. And I think it's because, well, who knows why? But the cruises, by the way, just in general, it's the Olympics of wasting food. Like, they will bring you extra everything if you're like, oh, this was pretty good. They're like, oh, how do you like the shrimp linguini? And I'm like, a huge portion, but it's pretty good. And they're like, all right, I'm gonna bring another round for everyone. And it's like, what are you doing?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hard to watch sometimes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, it's tough, man. I'm like, in the morning, I was like, hey, my stomach's upset. Can you bring me a bowl of oatmeal and a little bit of sugar and some berries? They brought me like this massive fruit thing and they brought me like an entire whole ass container of sugar. Like more than I would use in a month in any amount of oatmeal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Is this because you bought it from Costco or is this cruise ships in general?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, they're like these Costco people, they want everything in bulk. So, yeah, I remember Jen was like, oh, I like raisins in my oatmeal. And they brought a container, like, no doubt a 10 ounce container of raisins that was bigger than the bowl of oatmeal.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some guy comes in dragging a grape tree.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Take your pick.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

They do grow on vines, but yeah, it was just like unbelievable.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Did I just say grape tree?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You did say grape tree. Not a thing. By the way, that's true.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That they do grow on vines. That's right.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

This is an educational podcast and you need to step your game up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We need a skeptical Sunday on grapes is what I need. I heard that come out of my mouth and I was like, I don't know why I can't picture a grape tree.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So strange.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I never contemplated where grapes come from. And then now I understand. Let's move on.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's where they get their grape can apps off of grape trees. The workers were also really interesting. There's a mix of people, right? So you get these kind of career workers that are all, I don't know, probably my age, 40 something years old, and they're from like Yugoslavia, Indonesia, the Philippines. The younger folks are from South Africa, Australia, the uk, New Zealand. So there's these two tiers of people. Like there's the people at the kids club and the people selling jewelry and the people who are doing excursions and they're all really young. And then you get these older folks that are in the. Probably the more money making positions like food service and Stuff. And I looked this up. Their hours are absolutely insane. First of all, they work seven days a week most of the time. They also work like 16 hours a day. These are probably good jobs because you make like 50 grand a year at the high end. And if you're from, I don't know, like a. Not a big place in like this, probably pretty good for Indonesia or the Philippines. Right? But you are. It's got to just be kind of miserable. And I'm going to go ahead and guess their stateroom is not as nice as the one that I had. Right. And doesn't have like floor to ceiling windows in it. They're probably packed in there. So I just found talking to them was quite interesting. It's a little tough though, right? Because it's a Disney cruise. You're like, hey, what are your hours like? And they're like, I love working here. And you're like, yeah, but you work a lot. And they're like, oh, but it doesn't feel like work. Bibbidi bobbidi boo. And you're like, okay, man, I'm out of here. I will Google it. Because they, like, can't say anything.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your face and your arthritis tell a different story, my friend.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. There's all these different South Africans with different South African accents. And I realized probably at age 46, for the first time was like, oh, yeah, there's like these Afrikaners and the people who are English and they totally have different subculture and, and language and everything. And so I was like, wait, you're from South Africa? But Brandon's also from South Africa and he sounds completely different. So I was able to talk to some of those folks. One thing that I thought was interesting is none of the South Africans were like, don't you love. The South Africans are all so nice. Except for Elon Musk. And everyone looked at her like, you're not allowed to say stuff like that on the boat. Like, just daggers.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That makes me happy because it reminds me of when we were in North Korea and everywhere you went, people towed the party line and they had their little scripts and they had their stories about how it is and how this is such a great country and they're very happy. And then every once in a while, we would just crack that. You would get past the facade and they would say one short, honest thing and you'd be like, now we're talking. I live for those moments. My favorite one is, and I haven't thought about this in a while, but I think you were not on this trip, this was one I did without you. And we were at the dmz, they have like a little museum where they have the document that they signed during the armistice agreement or whatever and they have flags. And on the table next to the signed document, they had the North. North Korean flag. And then they had not the US flag, but some other flag we use for diplomatic contexts. I can't remember.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think there was a UN flag.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It was probably a UN flag. And the story they told us, this like five star general who gives the tours is like, the Americans wouldn't use their own flag because they were so embarrassed about losing the war. And I said, wait, really? And she looked at me, there was a beat and then she just rolled her eyes openly with her back turned to the general. And I was like, that is the correct response. It's those little moments. Sometimes it's not even in words, but you just get, you know, you get past the propaganda.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, there's a couple of things. One of our friends there, I won't at her because I don't want to get anybody in actual trouble, but there was a. One of the guides was kind of a. She was quite privileged, I think her father was like a high ranking military or government official. And she was in the women's room with one of the British guides from the tour company that we used, our tour partner. So the British guy told me this. They were in there and they were drinking a little bit that day. And she was like, yeah, if you ever come to the uk, it'd be so great. And this North Korean girl goes, we just wanna be normal. We're so sick of all this Kim Jong Il this, Kim Jong Il that. And then she caught herself and was like, powder up my nose and go back out there and pretend this conversation never happened.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Correct. Yeah, I know exactly whom you're talking about too. And she was really special. And it was hard. It makes me sad.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. Especially if they've traveled. They know what semi normal is. Like they go to China and they go, wait a minute, there's not a food short globally. What are you talking about?

[Jordan Harbinger]

I used to think about that too. Like, it was so fun to get to know some of the North Koreans in Pyongyang who are in the tourism department. I was like, oh, if I lived here, this would definitely be the job I want. But then I was like, in a way it's worse because you're rubbing up against people from other countries and you know that what the government is telling you is not true. So In a way, it's harder. It's sadder. And then they say goodbye, and we never get to talk to them again unless we go there, which we can't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, the North Korea thing, that's a whole separate. That's a whole separate show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Before we get onto this, let's get back to the Costco cruise, shall we?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'll lighten it up. So since there were so many different foreign accents on the. I had. There's this place called the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique, by the way, on the ship. And it's for little kids to, like, go dress up as a princess or a pirate. So we bought Juniper this princess makeover thing, and she's, like, getting makeup done. Oh, kid.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God. Dude. The photos of her were so. Both of them were so cute.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Incredibly, incredibly cute. And so I had asked this guy from India where the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique was, and, sorry, this is gonna sound a little cringe, but he was like, oh, the Bibbidi Bibidi Boutique. And I would laugh so hard, and he was laughing, too, because he had trouble saying it. And then around the boat, asking every staff member where the Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique was so that they would repeat it in their accent. And it was so funny. And I'm not making fun of them. I. It was actually just the cutest thing to hear people be like, oh, the Bibbidi Bobbidi B take. It's on the third floor. And I was just like, wow, that. Like. I like that one too.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So whimsical. They must have known that when they

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

named that store, it was so funny. And again, the service was amazing. Everybody was super kind and seeing. One of the most interesting parts of this was seeing adults out of their normal element. So when you're out alone in the world as adult, you're just kind of like, whoever you are. But when you're with your kids, usually I would say, especially on vacation, the best version of that person, right? Because you want to set a good example for your kids. So there was this guy I bumped into, and I had to get around him in a line. He was in a line that was, like, blocking the way I needed to go. And I was like, oh, excuse me. I didn't mean to bump into you, because I was looking at my daughter, and I turn around, and this guy with a giant Nazi tattoo on his chest is like, oh, you're good, man. It's all good, bro. And I was like, whoa, you're wearing a huge Nazi Tattoo across your entire chest. And I looked at him, he's like, shaved head, head, you know, like, beard. And I was like, this dude is a. This is a neo Nazi, or at least an ex neo Nazi.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That is very confusing.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes.

[Jordan Harbinger]

American history acts at sea 100%.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

He had, like, American flag swim shorts, which sounds like it contradicts the whole Nazi thing, but actually is kind of like, you know, makes perfect sense a little bit now. Not because Americans are Nazis. Save your emails. But because a lot of the sort of like, super patriot, white nationalist type people, they consider themselves like, we're the real Americans. We're the, you know, we're the Christian ones that came here first, and it's our land. Like, that's a belief system that I've explored here on the show before, if you're familiar. So I just thought that was so interesting because I was like, what is this guy thinking when he sees me walking past with my clearly mixed children? What is this guy thinking when he's got the. I think it's called the Reichsadler on, like, the Nazi iron eagle that's perched on the swastika all across his chest. And I was like, does anybody say anything to this guy? Like, half the cruise is Asian people and, like, Latinos. I mean, it's a very mixed crowd on a Disney cruise.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then that guy turns around and saves you the last buttermilk pancake.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, he was like. He was getting ice cream with his kids, and it was just such a weird juxtaposition because you're like, oh, you

[Jordan Harbinger]

should not be allowed to enjoy ice cream with that tattoo. I'm sorry.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I like to think he got that when he was younger. He doesn't have the money to remove it. He grew his chest hair over it, and he's got a bunch of other tattoos. And he's like, yeah, I was an idiot. What can you do? I told myself if I weren't with my kids and I saw that guy again, I would be like, dude, I gotta ask you, what's up with the tattoo? I'm so curious because he didn't seem scary. He seemed like a very friendly guy. That was so bizarre to me.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Let me guess, not a Neapolitan guy.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I did see him later, still with my kids, and he was eating chocolate ice cream. And I was like, there's such a good joke in here that I will not, absolutely not.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Where my mind went, like, you have with that tattoo, you got to pile on the vanilla all the way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I was like, huh? Chocolate, huh, pal? I knew it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Interesting choice.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There's a funny meme on Twitter that says, never ask a white supremacist to show you a picture of his wife. Because it's always like an Indian lady or Latina.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, my God, that's so intense.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Well, I'm glad the crew has brought out the best in these people. That's all I can say.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Anyway, everyone was friendly. Not a single dickhead. Even the guy with the Nazi tattoo. A lot of Disney adults, by the way. So this was the whole thing where I was like, these gotta be the weirdest people ever. They're. First of all, they're super nice because they're basically grown up kids and they're all friendly and they're in their happy place, right? Cause they're on a Disney cruise and they're like trading pins with my son.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No judgment, but yes, a little judgment maybe, but that's weirder to me than the Nazi tattoo.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I look at it this way. I'm 46. My wife is 40. We would not go on a Disney cruise without little kids. But there were a lot of people our age that had no kids or even younger that had no kids with them. Look, maybe I just saw them without their kids, but I'm pretty sure these were the same people. Like, I never saw them with their kids. And they also had like Disney tattoos and stuff like that. And I thought, oh, no, these are Disney adults. Like, they're buying jerseys in their size. Goofy jerseys in their size.

[Jordan Harbinger]

At the store you got a Minnie Mouse tramp stamp and you're going on this cruise. I don't know, man. It's not the cruise that bothers me. It's the trading pins. You have to draw a line somewhere. For me, it's trading small objects as a grown adult. But maybe I don't understand the magic of Disney.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, there was a 70 plus year old man, maybe even 80 plus, who had an eyepatch, which is funny because it was a pirate themed day. And I kept going like, oh, look, a real pirate. And he'd go, yar. But he definitely was just missing an eye.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah, he needed it.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And he had a Mickey Mouse iPad, by the way. It was definitely for the trip. And he was pin trading. And I was like, oh, let's go trade pins with this older guy. It'll be so nice. And I brought my. My son and two of the girl. My friend's kids were there with us. And he was like, nah, this pin's more value. Like, this girl's like, I'll trade you this one for this. And he's like, no, no, no, this isn't a class above. I'm not going to trade you this. And he was like hardballing these little kids during pin trading. And I was like, oh, he's not like, oh, sure, whatever makes you happy. He was like, nah, this is a good pin Your sucks.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This is the greatest TV show I've seen in. This is too funny, dude.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I'm gonna wrap this in a sec. But there's this gifting culture where people. It's called pixie dust. Where like, you can leave a bag or people make magnet hooks and stuff and they stick them to their cruise door. Jen made a bunch of necklaces to give away. And it's like, take a necklace. And people would leave little rubber ducks or little necklace jewelry things, keychains, stickers in the little mailbag. And the kids were stoked because they'd wake up every morning, there'd be like new little toys in their mailbox. And it was just a really fun thing. And we would go in the elevator and this little girl had a sword, but she was a princess. And I said, oh, a princess with a sword. And she goes, actually, does your son want this? I don't need it. I'm a princess. And she just gave him this really cool sword. And the whole cruise was like that. It was just a lot of sharing and fun and older kids being really nice to younger kids. I just thought it was such a good environment for that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's cute.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I did see a show fan, or I should say a show fan spotted me on the boat.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, that's awesome. Who wasn't?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

A couple of them, actually. I only got the name of one shout out to Carlos, who spotted me on the boat. We were just walking in a crowd of, I don't know, 200 people to get to something I don't remember now. And he's like, Jordan Harbinger. And I was like, oh, yeah, hey, man. And we talked for a second. He's like, I'll let you get back to it. Cause the crowd is pushing us, you know, in different directions. Basically, it was just a funny place to get spotted. Cause of course, I'm like a mess, right? Food poisoning, unshaven, with kids, probably have different bits of drool and boogers stuck to me somewhere. And I was like, oh, hey, hey, bro. Thanks for listening to the show. Actually totally on brand, now that I think about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was gonna say, it's sounds like you always run into fans when you're either on your way to the bathroom or coming back from the bathrooms. Weird.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's true. And I was both of those things for the majority of the cruise.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That sounds like it started off real rocky, but actually turned around in a. In the best way. That's. That's actually very sweet. It sounds like a pretty solid vacation.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. It's just as important to find out what kind of vacations you don't enjoy as it is to find out the kind of vacations that you do. So it wasn't a waste at all. And the kids said they had fun, even though the majority of that was coloring in the room and going down a water slide. So whatever. All right, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in a long term marriage. We've been together for 17 years, married for 13 this coming fall, and have three young kids. And I feel like my understanding of my husband and my relationship has been unraveling piece by piece over the last year for our entire relationship. He presented himself as very vanilla.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You don't say.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I completely forgot about that. Did not see the vanilla coming.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You did not see. See that coming.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Did not see the vanilla coming. If I ever asked about his sexual preferences or kinks, his answer was always some version of I'm just vanilla, babe. And he told me he only had eyes for me. He also consistently downplayed his porn use, saying it was minimal or basically non existent and only came up occasionally.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Ooh, here we go.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Something tells me this dude is about as vanilla as rocky road as that ice cream that that other guy probably avoids. Like the plate. Are you getting that vibe?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I am. This guy is one of those 80% cacao vanill you only. You only find those in Belgium.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I'm just vanilla, babe. You know, the kind of vanilla that keeps you up with heart palpitations till four in the morning, but that kind of vanilla.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. I can't wait to hear what this guy's pornhub search history was. Let's go.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I've never had an issue with porn use. I even worked at a porn store while putting myself through grad school. But that's changed over the past year. After his mom passed away, I started uncovering things that made me question his honesty and our entire relationship. Since then, I've repeatedly discovered ongoing porn use, specific kinks and interests he never disclosed, and behaviors that directly contradict what he's told me about himself. This has included using porn frequently in situations that feel especially inappropriate to me. Like at work. And even while he was solely responsible for caring for our infant, which has made this feel less like a private habit and more like something that's crossing serious boundaries, some of what I found has also crossed into spaces in our home and family life in ways that feel deeply inappropriate and unsettling to me.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wait, what does that mean exactly? Like, literal spaces or figurative ones?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Either she means he's rubbing one out on the couch in the living room or something like that while the baby's sleeping in the other room. Or she means he's, like, trying to bring it into their relationship in some way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably the former one, but I hear her. He's not discreetly partaking in the bathroom before bed or something. He's being way too loosey goosey about it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Bold. Coming from the guy who partook in the bathroom while his. What was it? His in laws heard the video on the Bluetooth speaker in the living room?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Now you're thinking of me being in the car in a parking lot at Kaiser Permanente.

[Jordan Harbinger]

No, no, no, you're.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh, the video that my friend sent me. So long. Oh, my God, that was so long ago.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Some friend that was.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah. I will never live this down. Why did you bring that up?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Because, you know, it's our love language, Bubba. And I love you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Okay. All right.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I just have to remind everybody that you did that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Straight out of a Judd Apatow movie. That moment I go to take a leak, my friend tells me to watch some dumb adult video. This is years ago, okay? I forget my phone' connected to Bluetooth. I have to walk back in because I can't hear it. So I crank the volume right. I walk back in wondering if they know what they heard and figured it out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, it's so ridiculous. I could not write a better scene myself. One of my favorite stories of yours.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Glad you enjoyed. Let's get back to her nightmare, shall we? Let's do that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Most of what I found directly conflicts with what he said he's attracted to, which makes me question whether I was ever given an honest picture of his sexual identity at all.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I can see why that's the hardest part.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that and the cleaning bill for the upholstery. But I hear that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

And the, yeah, $800 prepaid cleaning warranty from La Z Boy. Schwing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

There have also been moments that make the contradictions even harder for me to process. At one point, after listening to an episode of the Jordan Harbinger show about Ozempic. He encouraged me to listen to it too, because he wanted me to consider taking it due to his concerns about my weight and lifespan, even though I'm relatively healthy and have always been a plus sized woman woman at the time. I tried to take that at face value and even attributed it to his grief after his mom passed. But in the context of everything I've since discovered, including the types of women he's consistently looking up, consuming and drawn to, it feels deeply hurtful, confusing and contradictory and makes me question what is actually true about his attraction and intentions.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow. Yeah, that's a tough message to take in. So I'm assuming he's looking at like super thin women or something and then he's going to his wife like, hey, have you heard of the GLP1? Ozempic. Super interesting. Jordan Harbinger told me all about it. Don't put this on me, pal. But yeah, that's tricky, to put it mildly.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I've tried to make sense of this and part of me wonders if this is tied to shame around his actual preferences that what he presents and what he's drawn to privately don't match. And I've been given the more socially acceptable version.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Shame or fear? Yeah, socially acceptable maybe. I mean, you haven't told us specifically what he's into, but maybe this is more about what he thinks you would find acceptable. Gabe, I'm not getting the idea that he's watching dudes or anything. I feel like it would be more clear cut that he's. Oh my God, my husband's gay. Right. That correct. Okay, yeah, yeah, so I'm just guessing. It's, I don't know, women that are built differently.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But even if that's true, it still leaves me dealing with the dishonesty and confusion that come from not being told the truth for 17 years. What's been most damaging isn't just what I found, it's the pattern around it. Every time I discover something and try to talk with him over this past year, I've met with defensiveness, denial, I don't remember, or a minimized version of the truth. Truth. When he does admit to something, it's usually only after I have evidence and I'm told that's everything or there's nothing else. Then later I find more.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh yeah, that's. So this dishonesty, the withholding and the obfuscation, whatever you want to call it, that's sort of a problem on top of the problem and might actually be the real problem.

[Jordan Harbinger]

This has happened enough times that it feels like I'm being drip fed the truth over time instead of given honesty from the start.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yep. Ye olde trickle truthing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Trickle truthing. I've never heard that one. One Interesting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I've tried addressing this in multiple ways. Calmly, directly, and emotionally, but the pattern doesn't change.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, if that's true, assuming you've made it genuinely safe for him to be open with you, then at a certain point, this does become about him.

[Jordan Harbinger]

When I try to talk about it, the focus shifts to how I'm bringing it up. My tone, my reaction, my phrasing, instead of the fact that I keep uncovering things I was never told.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So either she's not making it totally safe to open up, which is possible given how sensitive this topic is, or.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or he's kind of like throwing up smoke screens and pointing the finger at her.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, exactly. I truly cannot tell. I would love to talk to this guy.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I leave these conversations feeling more hurt, confused, and dismissed. And like I need a full case file of evidence just to be taken seriously. At the same time, sex feels like a priority for him in a way that doesn't match the emotional reality of our relationship. What an interesting way to say I don't want to have sex with you right now, ma'.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Am. Yeah, I was just kind of thinking the same thing. What a way to turn someone down. Hey, you want to get it in? Oh. That does not match the emotional reality of our relationship right now. I mean, I get what she means,

[Jordan Harbinger]

but yeah, I don't feel safe, respected, or fully appreciated yet. There's still an expectation for physical intimacy, even though no real relationship repair has happened for the level of betrayal that I feel.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, in all seriousness, I totally understand what you're saying. And that's got to be a strange feeling, being intimate with a spouse when there's all this unresolved stuff between you that you're not making real progress on.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On the other hand, he clearly still wants to have sex with.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

With her.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's interesting. That matters too. But she feels betrayed by this. But he's just like, I. I enjoy this stuff privately. This is mine.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, it's an interesting question. What exactly hurts about this? And who's creating that hurt?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Knowing what I know now and how long it's been hidden makes me feel like I don't even know who I married. She said that three or four times now. So this is a really big thing. Yeah. I'm struggling to understand where the line is between private behavior and deception that undermines a marriage.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Again, Such an interesting question. Are married people allowed privacy in this? Or does that privacy only end up chipping away at intimacy?

[Jordan Harbinger]

At what point does repeatedly hiding parts of your sexual life, including porn use and undisclosed kinks, cross from privacy into a breach of trust in a monogamous marriage? Can trust realistically be rebuilt when the truth only comes out in bits and pieces and only after being discovered, after being busted?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And how do I move forward in a long term marriage with young children when I feel like I was never given a fully honest picture of who my husband is and I still don't know if I have it now, now signed all up in my feelings now that I know what and where my husband is streaming.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Wow. Big questions. Good questions. This is intense, man. So I'm obviously very sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I can hear how much it hurts. I can totally understand why this is unsettling. To feel like the person you've been with for 17 years. Is that what it was?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Together for 17, but married for 13.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

To feel like they're actually this whole other person, or maybe to be more accurate and more fair to him, that there's this whole side to him and what he likes that you didn't know about, and that side different from yours, different from what you offer him. In some ways unsettling and hurtful, for sure, probably not intentionally, but painful for you. But then when you layer on top of it the issues of body image, potential porn addiction, dishonesty or incomplete honesty, rocky communication, questionable boundaries, I think I can understand why it's doing such a number on you. And I'm sorry about that. That said, I want to make a little room for how tricky this might be for your husband, just in the interest of total fairness and here to state the obvious. And this can be an uncomfortable fact to confront. And I think it's important to say he's allowed to be into whatever he's into as long as he's not harming himself or anyone else, of course. And for a lot of people, consuming porn is like kind of their way of enjoying those things. And yeah, the topic of porn is complicated, but generally speaking, I kind of think people are allowed to consume whatever they want again, as long as they're not engaging in any harm. And there's a philosophical argument as to whether people who make that are being harmed always by you consuming it, but I'm not addressing that right now. The other thing I want to acknowledge is, yes, it's possible that your husband is dealing with some shame about his preferences. And if so, I actually feel for him there to a certain extent as well. Shame is generally very hard to work through, especially in this department. It's also his shame to deal with. I also think, like I said, that he sees how sensitive this is for you and he probably doesn't want to hurt you. So maybe shame is only half the equation at the same time. Man, Gabriel, I don't know. He still wants to have sex with her and he's watching porn to like scratch an itch or curiosity about something else. And it's. It doesn't mean like, oh, I don't love my wife anymore because I'm watching, I don't know, 20 something year old, thinner women have sex. It's not. Think about it like this, maybe the reason that this bothers her so much. And we don't have information here, but let's assume he's just watching younger, thinner women have sex or something like that on screen. That's a bad example of what I'm about to say because it's. It maybe hits on insecurities, but like, imagine he's watching, I don't know, tentacle porn. You'd probably go, well, that's kind of silly. Do you want to have sex with an octopus? And the answer is no. And it's just like, oh, well, that's a weird thing you're watching. Watching. Yeah. I was just kind of curious what it looked like, and it's almost like a joke. But the fact that he's watching something that specifically it's hitting certain switches in her that is making it way worse. I don't know. If you were watching cartoon porn, it would be like, he watches cartoon porn. What a weirdo. Not, oh my God, what does this mean about me?

[Jordan Harbinger]

But the fact is that it is closer to them and their marriage. So it does. Yeah. Which switches, does it? Hidden her is exactly the question. I think that's a very good point.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's possible that at least some of his dishonesty can be attributed to his desire to protect you or spare you from being hurt. I don't think he's going about that in a great way. Certainly not the best way. But if he's a decent person and he loves you, which I hope he is, I hope he does, then some

[Jordan Harbinger]

of this might be coming from a quote unquote, good place in him.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I think there's a decent chance that if we could ask him, he'd be like, I'm into this kind of stuff. My wife is different in certain ways. I care about her. I don't want to hurt her. I see how hard this is for her. So I just keep it to myself. And I honestly, I think I'm allowed to keep it to myself. Call me crazy. I just. I don't think that makes him a monster.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's a very fair point. And I appreciate that you're making some room for him in all of this, but all of that is having some apparently painful effects, and it is putting some distance between them, and I'm just trying to figure out exactly why.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So let's talk about that. One layer of this that does seem problematic to me is the way he's engaging with the porn. Okay. A lot of what she described, it does sound compulsive. Almost like he isn't in total control of it, or at least he's not being very thoughtful about it, which is unfortunately very common. Porn addiction is a weird term, but, like, porn addiction is so widespread, it's kind of insane. So even if we allow that he can watch this stuff privately and it's all fair, it's also true that he needs to be mature and respectful and disciplined and appropriately boundaried in all those things, especially with a kid in the house.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I know you were kind of like, is porn addiction a real thing? But I also feel like the moment you're using porn frequently at work, which we don't know if he works from home, but even if I do. Yeah, but we don't know. I mean, people do this in the office of the bathroom at the office, or if he's just.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or, like, while rocking the baby to sleep. I think you might have a problem.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Like, hey, man, I know you're in the middle of something, but I really. Can I get that latte? I'm kind of in a hurry.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I'll get to your pistachio latte after I'm done with the tentacle porn. Just give me five minutes.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, exactly. Hold on. I just have to adjust something. Yeah. Hard. Agree. Oh, unfortunate Turner phrase there, chubby.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Agree. I understand. I got you.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Tuck that. Agree. In the waistband. Banned. Precisely. So even if the porn use weren't bringing up these challenges for you, I'd still say this is something your husband needs to address. This is not coming from a moral, finger waggy kind of place. I trust that's obvious. I hope it is. This is coming from a. It sounds like you have a potentially unhealthy relationship with this stuff, bro. And if you can't get through a workday or hang with the baby without rubbing one out to alien porn. Then you might be flirting with something like an addiction. And it's possible that this stuff has hijacked your mind and you need some help, or at least to go on a little detox. That's the place I'm coming from. And it's okay to need help. I don't think it's controversial to say that pornography has the potential to be quite harmful. We've done several episodes about this over the years. But it's not okay to not address this stuff and start using it responsibly when it starts to take over your life in this way.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I agree. So let's talk about this. Honesty, intimacy, tension, intention, general.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Let's. I truly do not know where to land on that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, like you, I'm kind of of two minds there. On one hand, I think every person deserves a certain degree of privacy in this domain and in other domains as well, in order to be safe, to be free, to be an individual, you

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

know, I agree with that in principle. Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And in fact, being truly close with another person might require that privacy. You know, that's kind of like the essential separateness that allows for togetherness. Whereas a total loss of privacy or separateness might actually start to become. I don't know. Or has the potential to become something like enmeshment or control or something like that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Good point. Kind of like how boundaries are what, allow for true closeness. We've talked about that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

On the other hand.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah.

[Jordan Harbinger]

We cannot deny that his hiding stuff like this has hurt his wife quite deeply and it has put emotional distance between them. So then I wonder, can you really be private about this stuff and still be close?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's a weird paradox. Both feel true. It's like privacy is legitimate. It's kind of sacred, and it can come at a cost.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But does it come at a cost? Because it's inherently wrong to hide any part of yourself from a spouse for long because, like, the moment you're hanging on to something, you're all already kind of pulling away. Or does it come at a cost when the other person expects to have access to all of those parts of you when they might not?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Ah, good question. Like, is he automatically hurting her by hiding his preferences and habits? Or is he hurting her because her need to know about this stuff is

[Jordan Harbinger]

almost creating the problem made further complicated by the fact that even if he were being totally open with her about all of this, she would probably still be hurt by some of these preferences.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Another good point, because. Yeah, she couldn't blame him for lying or whatever, but she might still feel like she isn't giving him something important that he wants.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So there's an interesting opportunity for her to really take stock of the source of her sources, of her hurt, and where he needs to take responsibility for the way that he's communicating with her. And, you know, she might also need to take responsibility for taking a little bit better care of herself because she's kind of blaming him for all of her feelings. I can imagine that it's very tempting for her to say, my husband has been hiding this porn addiction or something like it. He's not being straight up with me about the stuff that he likes. And when he does tell me, he doesn't tell me the full story. And what he does tell me suggests that it's very different from what I can offer him. And that hurts. And I get that. From her perspective, that is true. But a moment ago, Jordan, you made room for a couple possibilities on his end that might also be equally true and might, in fact, make his behavior maybe more painful than hurtful. Meaning she experiences pain, but he's not intending to hurt her. She has some tender spots in this department that his private porn use is touching on, and I think that might be important to recognize as well.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Agreed. But what I'm also appreciating is that we have the potential to hurt someone unintentionally, especially a partner when we're cagey about certain information. He might not be aware that hiding and communicating like this can create problems, but the reality is that it does create problems. So this question of who's responsible for her pain is kind of. It's a tricky one.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, another excellent point. And it can be true that her pain, which again, is fair, really is making it hard for both of them to talk about this. He might be afraid and overwhelmed by her pain.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Pain.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And she might be hurt and kind of turned off by his preferences. Throw all of those feelings together, and even if she's sitting in front of him saying, look, I'm willing to hear the truth. I would rather know everything, even if it hurts. Please don't lie to me. He might still feel her judgment, her distaste, her hurt. He might also be contending with his own feelings about others and just go, I can't. Yeah, I can't talk about this fully, but can't.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's a flexible concept. He can learn.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's true. He could if he wants to.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Whether he wants to, that's another story. The tough thing is Go, Gabe. Even if he does decide to start being fully honest, that might bring to the surface other potential incompatibilities between them.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Getting better with the communication and openness might not fix the problem. In fact, it might, ironically make it worse. But it would eliminate at least one huge level of their conflict. She can no longer blame him for withholding.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Right. But also, this depends on how important their sex life, broadly speaking, is to them. For some couples, it's not a big deal. And that's fine.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I mean, it's fine as long as both parties are on the same page and they want the same things, need the same things, value the same things. I'm not sure.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, I'm not sure they are. It's just one more question for them to explore. I'm also curious, a bit curious, anyway, about what else is going on in his life. The big thing hovering in the background, although I can't tell how big of a role it's playing here, is his mother's death.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Oh, yeah. I'm glad you brought this up. It was after she passed away that our friends started finding out about all this stuff. So that is interesting.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I thought that was interesting as well. Did he start consuming all this porn as a way to numb himself and his grief and it got out of hand? Was he consuming it the whole time, but the grief made him turn it even more and he became more reckless about it? Is the grief making him care less about whether our friend finds out and what she thinks?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or is our friend attributing a lot of this, like, the Ozempic conversation to his mom's death? Because that makes it somehow easier to cope with.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

You mean, like, the only way I can seriously consider this recommendation is if it's truly a question of health and that's tied to your mom's mortality?

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's actually a very interesting possibility. A related one, which is what I thought it was, was you encouraging a zempic is so hurtful to me. I have to believe that it's because you're grieving that you thought this would go over well at all. I'm kind of hearing both possibilities in her letter.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm not sure this Ozempic thing, man, is so loaded.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, so loaded.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I'm afraid that if we got into that, this letter would take up the whole episode. The whole question of size and weight and aesthetics, whether we can legitimately frame this stuff as a question of health, or whether the moment you start thinking about losing weight, you're already in disordered territory. It's all extremely complicated. We are not qualified to really wade into those waters responsibly. But it might be worth making some room here for your own feelings around your weight, whatever they are. This is me inviting you to get curious here. This is not me telling you how to think. You said you're a plus size woman. I don't know what that means. I can imagine it means a lot of things, but you also said that you're relatively healthy. I realize tiptoeing up to this is already a very delicate matter, and I hope you can tell that I do it with a lot of love. My question for you is, does any of your anger and hurt and confusion about your husband's preferences, does any of that have to do with your own feelings about yourself? Maybe they have nothing to do with each other. Maybe there's some connection there. It's hard to put your fingers I want to be clear. I'm not saying hey, go on ozempic or you need to make a change. Unless you were like medically obese, in which case I would feel pretty comfortable saying it's time to start taking care of yourself. This is objectively dangerous, but my sense is that getting this wreck from your husband is particularly dicey for obvious reasons. And if it turns out that he might have a point here, like if you could be taking better care of yourself, which might have the added benefit of helping your sex life, if that's something you want to do, then there might might be something valuable for you to hear there. And I wish it were not coming from him right now in this way, but this is where it's coming from. I recognize this is not a PC take. I recognize that a lot of people are yelling at their car stereos right now and getting angry at me. I make room for all of these reactions and beliefs and I swear to you, I really do. I'm not here to tell you how you should look or anything, but you chose to include that piece of information, which I appreciate. And by your own admission, your health could be better. So putting aside all of this very painful and naughty and confusing sex and intimacy and honesty stuff, just focusing with a lot of love and curiosity about you. The question I'm posing to you is are you taking the best possible care of yourself? Not as a matter of aesthetics, not even just as a way to please your husband, but as a matter of you taking good care of you. And if you did, would that change any of your feelings about all this? Intense question. I know, but I'd be remiss if I didn't put it on the table. Table. Warm up those angry emails, folks. I know. It's a minefield. I get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Wow. Yeah. Very much the DMZ of marriage problems. But I appreciate that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I suppose all relationships are. And that's kind of what we're talking about, right? Marriage is like a gymnasium for trauma and healing. Some people are doing abs alone in the corner. Some people are jumping rope outside. Some people are doing partner squats in the middle of the gym. That metaphor maybe doesn't make a ton of sense. Whatever. Lots of different ways to be in a relationship is what I'm saying. Lots of different risks and upsides. Sorry about where you are, my friend. I know it hurts. I'm also confident that you and your husband are right where you need to be, because we always are. But the difference between living with this hurt and evolving from this hurt is what you do with it on your own and with him, if he's up for it. But I do really hope that your husband finds a more helpful way to talk to you about this and that you remain open to understanding exactly why this hurts. Because my sense is that there are several contours to this hurt. And I hope that together, you guys figure out how to talk about all this in a more direct way, including how you repair and how that informs the intimacy. But between you sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best, you know what else you can enjoy with one hand? The pornographically good deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by 1-800-Flowers. After having kids, I appreciate moms more than ever. You realize just how much they're carrying all the time. The planning, the patience, the invisible work. Nobody sees it is a tough job. And moms deserve way more credit than they usually get. So this Mother's Day show the moms in your life some real appreciation with 1-800-Flowers. They've been doing this for over 50 years. They've got the details down. Bouquet has picked at peak freshness, carefully packaged, backed by a freshness guarantee. And right now, when you order a dozen roses, they'll double it to two dozen for free. Twice. The flowers for the mom who gives everything. They send a bouquet to the studio. And I gotta say it, this leveled the place up. Fresh, vibrant, full, and the kind of arrangement that actually makes an impression the second you see it. If your mom or your wife get something like that, that's gonna land. And if Mother's Day snuck up on you? Well, they've got same date delivery, Mother's day is Sunday, May 10, and bouquets are selling out fast. Trust me. Don't wait to claim your double roses offer before they're gone. Visit 1800flowers.com jhs that's 1800flowers.com jhs1800flowers.com jhs this episode is also sponsored by Gusto. Running a business, especially a small one, you end up wearing every hat. Some of our hats are not fun. For me, payroll and HR was always one of those I'll deal with it later kind of tasks until later shows up and now it's urgent or in some kind of immersion emergency. It's one of those things where if you mess it up, it's a big deal. People need to get paid correctly, taxes need to be filed right, there is no room for error, and doing it manually is a huge time suck. So that's why Gusto has been a game changer for us. It just takes all of that and puts it on autopilot. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one remote, friendly, incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. It's quick and simple to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. Plus, don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Get unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. Gusto is one of those things where you don't realize how much time and mental energy it's taking until you stop doing it the hard way. Try gusto [e-mail] Jordan and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free [e-mail] Jordan One more time. Gusto.com Jordan thank you for listening to and supporting the podcast. All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are on the [e-mail] deal deals. Please consider supporting those that support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Dear Jordan and Gabe, A couple of weeks ago your recommendation of the week was Notebook LLM. I was up for a job at the time, Major Events Manager for Citywide Events. So I uploaded the job description, role person spec and every bit of info I could find about the company and got it to create podcasts about the role, which I listened to throughout the interview process. I was so impressed by what it could do.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Amazing use case. I love that you ran with this idea that AI is insanely good. I think I mentioned that a friend used it to create a summary of this pretty complicated legal case that he's involved in. That's right. And instead of explaining it to everybody and being like, read the filing, which no one's going to do, he's like, here's a podcast about it and I just know a lot of students use it, but prepping for a job interview is another brilliant application of this Nice work.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I was excited to email you to say that I nailed the interview and got the job, but it didn't go my way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Oh man, sorry to hear that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Apparently it was mine right up until the last person they interviewed who had some very specific experience that I don't have. I'm really experienced in events and entertainment, but this person had police experience which gave them a safety edge which was a priority for them. Historically, I've always been great at interviews and got my early roles easily. I've then been promoted into senior positions but since I had kids and am applying directly for senior roles, I've had this experience of being the runner up for a job four times three. After my first baby two years ago, I ended up going freelance because I couldn't land land a job and now it feels like history is repeating itself. After my second baby, people keep reassuring me that the reasons I haven't gotten these jobs were all out of my control. I ask for feedback and it's always the same story. We loved you, we know you could do it, we'd love to work with you but someone else had X thing so we gave it to them. But I am the common denominator and I'm sure there's something I can do differently then recently one of the companies I didn't get a role with last time contacted me to say the job is up again and I have an interview. Do you have any suggestions of how I can get the edge that will move me from almost there to we definitely need to hire her? Signed Trying to win over the boss when I'm not quite sure how I come across.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Excellent question. So first of all, I am very sorry this interview did not go the way you'd hoped. I know the job market is crazy and taking time off to have children, that can be tough and there's so many variables in a job search it can just be mad maddening. But there are so many great signs here. The positive feedback, your mindset and taking responsibility for your results. Looking for ways to improve your creativity in the way you prep for interviews. This latest invitation to come back and interview. Companies don't do that unless they are genuinely interested in you. So this is all great news. So one general thought about getting real feedback while you're interviewing. It is really hard to do. These hiring managers, they might be telling you the truth when they say it was out of your control, that they loved you, that they love to work with you. But. And look, I get the sense they do mean it, but if there does happen to be more to it than that, they're probably not going to tell you. Both because it's uncomfortable for most people to give direct feedback, which sucks, and because it can sometimes be sensitive or even legally risky. Also, even if this was out of your control, from their perspective, from where they're sitting, somebody better just happen to walk in. That doesn't mean it's actually out of your control. So it's kind of an annoying response. Although I get why hiring managers do say that. And even if this were out of your control, that still means the other candidate had something that you didn't. Right. So in a sense, it might be under your control insofar as a lot of these qualities or skills are ones you could cultivate too. I mean, you can't become a cop overnight, but you can develop so many skills that you don't have yet, or

[Jordan Harbinger]

learn to tell the story that you can develop those skills pretty quickly. And here's how I would do it, given the chance, Stuff like that.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Exactly. And the story you tell about yourself, it's huge. It's kind of everything. So this is a dilemma that every single candidate finds themselves, themselves in. How to know what's really happening when things don't go their way, how to get meaningful feedback when they need it most. And it sounds to me like these interviewers aren't really telling you the full story. Maybe it really is as simple as the other person had police experience, which we suddenly need right now. I guess that makes a lot of sense.

[Jordan Harbinger]

But that could also mean that your story was not quite as compelling as it could have been for them to overcome that person's experience.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Or that they really shined in the interviews and connected on a personal level with the hiring manager, or that they had a relationship with somebody at the company that put them over the edge. I'm speculating, obviously. Obviously. But it would be great if these companies called you and said, you have A, B and C qualities we loved. We didn't see D, E and F. That's where we'd focus. But they're not going to do that. So you're left with a few options. Option one is you go out of your way and be slightly pushy with these hiring managers and get the feedback you need. This is a bit awkward, but we've heard from listeners who have done this and gotten great notes. They're literally like, hey, listen, between you and me, totally off the record, I could really use some feedback on how this went so I can get better. Please tell me how this went and where I could improve. It takes work and tact and the hiring manager also has to be willing to talk. But it is doable and it can be a game changer. Option two is you try to get feedback from other sources. Friends, family, peers, career coaches. That's pretty straightforward. Option three, you look inward. You do a post mortem on your interviews. You consider all the signals and feedback you've gotten up till now. You connect the dots yourself. Of course, ideally you do all three, but this is the work we need to do in order to get an accurate picture here. So my main question for you, you is if you are being brutally honest with yourself, when you get quiet, replay your interactions, really listen. Where do you suspect you need to develop? For example, are there any moments from your interviews that tug at you? Maybe a moment where you went, oh, I don't know if I'm really landing this answer. I kind of feel like I'm bullshitting right here. I'm doing my best and I can see the hiring manager just zoning out a little bit. Those are usually good pointers to areas we need to develop. Another idea, I would study the person who did get the job if you can. Maybe you can ask around about them or check them out on LinkedIn. You might learn something interesting. What experience they have that you don't, how they present themselves, how they brand themselves. LinkedIn is a personal branding extravaganza. I'm not saying you should mimic this person or anything like that. That's probably a losing strategy. But this could be another good source

[Jordan Harbinger]

of data, another idea. Since you're playing with AI, what if you typed up some notes about your job hunt or you recorded a voice note and dropped it into clot or chatgpt or go back to Notebook LLM. The good, the bad, you know, the sticking points the questions have right now and just asked it to give you an assessment and maybe some next steps and resources to keep developing. I feel like you could easily turn an AI platform into like a kind of career coach. I mean, it is going to get some stuff wrong, but at the very least It'll point you to some next steps. You know, here maybe there are a few practices or exercises or good books or maybe some communication templates for reaching back out to these hiring managers. You know, like following up, asking for feedback in the right way, stuff like that. Just an idea could be a cool use case as well.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

It's a great idea, but look, another tough fact about the job search is that so much of it ends up being about personality, vibe, relationships in a way that's quote unquote unfair. A few people over the years have written us saying exactly that, and I can see why. I used to think like that too. And it can be a tough pill to swallow for people who put a lot of stock into their credentials. But in another way, it's exciting because that's another dimension of this process that you control. And it's a skill like any other. We are tribal creatures, all of us. We want to work with people we like, people we identify with, people who make us laugh. So, yeah, absolutely, keep working on yourself skills. But I would also encourage you to make sure that you're shining just on the level of personality and personal style and connections. Are you relaxed and inviting when you're in these interviews, or are you a little serious and task oriented? Are you able to chat and have a laugh a little bit during the interview, or are you all business? Are you cultivating relationships at these companies or just hoping the hiring manager you happen to meet with likes you? Who's rooting for you in the organization? What social capital are you coming in with?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Are you telling your story and answering their questions in a way that makes them lean in, that makes them really want to invest in you? I think that matters exactly.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Are you going into these interviews feeling a little insecure about taking time off to have kids and having lost out on a few jobs, or are you going in there really psyched to figure out what they need and how you can meet that need? All of this stuff really matters. I would be remiss if I didn't do a shameless six minute networking plug here. This is literally what the course is for. Both to open doors to the interviews and to make sure that they stay open so you can walk through them. 6minutenetworking.com. It's really simple stuff. You can start right now developing and maintaining those relationships. In fact, on that note, here's a somewhat crazy idea. What if you reached out to the person who got the job, the one with the police experience, and you were like, hey, I was interviewing for the events job. Congratulations. On getting it, I can see why you were a great fit. I'm super intrigued by your background. I would love to connect and have a quick phone call if you're up for it. Whatever version of that feels right to you. If you can even find out who this person is. Of course, you never know where that might lead. Maybe in six months, that person is in a position to hire someone else, or they have relationships at other companies and they make an intro or they fill you in on what these companies are looking for from candidates and how to prep. In fact, when I was a lawyer, one of the things they had us doing because we were recruiting, they were like, oh, Jordan, you went to Michigan. Can you jump on this call with this other guy who's a few classes below you that we might hire? And I would jump on the phone and be like, hey, Andrew, it's Jordan Harbinger. I don't know if you know me. And they're like, oh, yeah, I think I remember you. You're a couple of years ahead of me. I'm like, yeah, you're thinking about coming to Thatcher Profit and Wood, huh? Like, chatting it up. Because the company was like, oh, this guy will feel more comfortable if somebody he maybe knows is on the call. And when I got recruited, it was like, oh, Jeremy is over here. And go say hi to him. And he was like, oh, Jordan, hey, let me sort of walk you in the door. And as you guys might remember from the show, I did my first interview with this law firm while the interviewer was eating a sandwich, because I didn't schedule the interview. I was just walked in and he's like, if you're willing to talk to me while I cram this subway sandwich in my face, then we can do the interview. And it was like 10 minutes. Minutes of, yeah, well, okay, you want to do this? Do you watch football? Yeah. What do you think of New York? You'd probably be stuck in New York. You cool with that? Yeah. All right. You want some Diet Coke? We got diet Coke in the back. You know, like, that was. That was the interview. Because Jeremy, who is like my old roommate's new roommate or something like that was like, oh, Jordan's cool. We've hung out twice. You know, it was like that.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Really do be like that sometimes. Yeah.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Look, different market, right? That was law firms going, we will hire anybody with a pulse as long as they're not a super strong liability risk or a total jerk. That was the bar far back then. So it's different now, but it's still, the whole getting walked into the door thing, do not underestimate that. But yeah, if somebody reached out to me like that, I think I'd respond very well. And honestly, why not? It's not any crazier than reaching out cold to somebody you have zero connection with at all. But listen, all this said so much of the job search really is about luck. Your skills have to align with their needs. You have to be the right candidate at the right moment. There's always a mystery to some degree, and in a sense there is a lot of stuff that's out of your control. So the best strategy is just to generate as many dots as possible, get as many at bats as possible to maximize your chances of getting lucky.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Exactly. I think all you need at the end of the day is one company to say yes. But you have to kiss a lot of frogs. Way more frogs than you want to have to kiss.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Frog kissing. That is what a lot of life is. I'm pumped for you, my friend. You sound like a very diligent, responsible, hard working person who has a of ton. I love that you're asking these questions and opening yourself up to as many sources of guidance as possible. It's inspiring, really, and I know it'll lead you to great places. Good luck. By the way, you can reach us [e-mail] Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you've been disinvited from your brother's wedding because your bride's to be had a falling out, you're trying to get your husband to realize that he was raised by narcissists who might abuse your infant son or you suspect your wife might be in the closet. You want to help her come out. Before you separate whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up fridayordanharth harbinger.com, we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right. You know what's almost as great as a life changing career opportunity? A discount code on a mattress and or living trust and or some supplements. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, they usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land. But the flight is part of the experience too. Just like a great hotel can shape an entire trip, so can a great flight. That's exactly what Lufthansa Allegris is built around On a long haul route, comfort matters more than people realize. If you're cramped, tired and can't relax, you feel it the second you land. But when a flight is comfortable, you can actually stretch out, rest, work, or just enjoy the ride. It changes the whole trip. I was thinking about that on my recent Intercontinental Lufthansa flight. I got so comfortable I honestly didn't want the flight to end, which is not something you say very often after a long international trip. That's why Lufthansa Allegris stands out. It's built around the idea that people travel differently. Lufthansa Allegris Business Class has five seats options. You've got the suite, the privacy seat and the extra long bed, the extra space seat and the classic seat. So you can choose what works for you. And that's what I like most. It feels elevated, but still practical. More privacy, more comfort, more thoughtful design for the way people actually travel. Now visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris all it takes is a yes. Limited availability on select routes. More routes coming soon. This episode is sponsored in part by AT&T. You know why I love Summer? All those plans we made. They finally make it out of the group chat. Seems like there's more time to fit everybody in whatever you've got in store this summer. Capturing those memories is a must. That's why I love the iPhone 17 Pro I picked up from ATT. Its center stage front camera auto adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone. No awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it. Just the perfect group selfie every time. And AT&T makes sharing those moments with everybody easy. Because you gotta share the pic or it didn't happen right? Right now at ATT, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible iPhone. Trade in any condition requires trade in of iPhone 15 or higher excluding iPhone 16e and 17e requires eligible plan terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit att.comiphone or visit an ATT store for details. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. Wee Bitwiser it is. It's a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you. Delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the show and the wisdom from it, it's a great place to come and do that. You can sign [e-mail] news all right, next up.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. It's always astounded me how during an episode you guys will say something like, that was episode 1192 with so and so. For anyone wondering, I've always figured it was a note written beforehand, but we've all learned that Jordan's memory has washboard abs.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That is a very charitable way to say that I have the memory of Dory from Finding Nemo, but okay.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Your memory is rocking a vicious six pack, my dude.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

The reframe I did.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Do you plan ahead of time the episodes you might reference during an interview, or do you just know them by memory?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, we definitely do not know them by memory. When one of us says this, we. We either thought about a related episode when doing the prep and made a note to include it or, and this is more often the case, I'd say we'll think of it in the moment, quickly Google it, and then mention it. And through the power of editing, it sounds like it was in the moment and. Or Gabe will text me while I'm talking with the episode number that he looked up so we don't have to stop. So I got old Gabe GPT over here helping out.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Another question, if you're cool, it can you explain how you get ad revenue and how we can support you as listeners use your promotion codes? Got it. But is that it?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That is the main way, yes. And as I say all the time, it is so huge for us. It's literally the reason we can do this show and it means the world to us. When you guys use our sponsor codes, when you need to get something for the house or buy a gift or whatever, it's just absolutely huge. Nothing replaces it. That's why we have the deals page and everything to make it as easy as possible.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Sometimes I find myself listening to the ad break because I think it could potentially help. But I'm never sure if I'm going to listen to Jordan sing the homes time. I'd like to think that there's an upside.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So some places check, like did the ad get delivered? But if you're forwarding through it, it's still delivered because it's downloaded. I mean, I don't know if there is some magical metric out there that measures whether people fast forward through the breaks as well and that factors into things somehow. I don't think that there is yet, but when you stick around and listen, you get the codes. You hear me talk about products that I have personal experience with, and I hope that gives you confidence and trust that I really, genuinely believe in the sponsors and everybody wins. So that's why I hope you stick around.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Finally. Sometimes Jordan responds to Gabe reading the letter in real time, interjecting with outrage. For example. What? Oh, my God, this is heartbreaking. I can't believe this. This person is crazy, full stop. Which sounds like he's responding to something as he's listening to it with us. But then later, he'll say something like, we wanted to run this one by Corbin Payne, making it clear that they've already done their due diligence on it. Or his answer includes some sort of script he's offering the writer about how to respond to someone they're writing in about. How often does Jordan go into a question blind versus with a plan? Anyway, just thoughts that came to mind. They're very low stakes, which is why I've never asked before. But I just got the itch this morning. Signed. Pretty chuffed to learn some stuff about how often you're truly off the cuff.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Fair question. And I'm happy to pull back the curtain a little here, even though part of me is like, do most people really care about the process? Just enjoy the sausage, bro. So the answer is yes, Sometimes I really do go into a letter totally blind. It happens all the time. This is how I used to do the show in the early days. All the time, 100% of the time. It was fun to end, improvise, but there were obvious downsides. However, over the years, your letters have gotten more and more complex and more and more nuanced and longer, and they've demanded better and better answers. Then Gabe came on board with five or six years ago now.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Almost six years.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, six years ago, let's say. And our workflow changed a lot. Gabe, I'm about to pull back the curtain on you for a moment. I hope that's cool.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, no problem. I'm just over here watching some porn, so just let me know when you're done talking, okay?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Power googling, not safe for work content. That's gonna make me insecure about my thighs.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Good luck proving it, dude. My brows. My browser history has washboard hubs, so

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

you clear that cache, brah. Catch me outside.

[Jordan Harbinger]

How about that?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's right, man, that's so good. The mantra of every dude who rubs one out in a shared family laptop from the laundry room during his lunch break. Anyway, so the thing about Gabe, he's big on the prep. This is a man who preps. And when he joined the show, he brought a lot more research and diligence than we had before. He made a big push to build our community of subject matter experts. He likes to take a lot of notes and come in with at least real take, and all of that just sort of rubbed off on me. I learned to like that way of working, even though I'm a very improvisational person, as you guys know. So it just kind of became our process. Both of us prepping individually mostly, but sometimes together when it's a really tough question, and then just flowing when we sit down to record. But as you can tell, we still feel our way through things and banter and stumble into digressions and stories and stuff like that. So this is one of the things I appreciate about my collaboration with Gabe. I think we balance each other in a lot of ways. My chaos builds on his prep, and his prep grounds my chaos.

[Jordan Harbinger]

That's a nice way to put it. It really isn't. Interesting Yin yang, you and I.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

So what you're usually hearing on Feedback Friday is a combination of rigorous prep, because that's what you guys deserve, frankly, and spontaneity. And actually just to touch on something really powerful I've learned in my career, it is the rigorous prep that allows for the spontaneity. I'm always surprised by how hard you have to work in order to truly be in the moment and be effective, but I digress. But about those questions where I'm reacting to the letter, even though I've clearly already read it, you're actually hearing two things there. One thing is, I enjoy reacting to the letter as if it's my first time hearing it. And sometimes I'm remembering my reaction the first time I read it, and I'm just restating it because it kind of puts us all in the same position. I don't know how that started. It was just organic. But a bunch of you told me you like when we do that, and I guess that's one way that we get to be playful within the prep. The other thing you're hearing, though, like you just said, my memory has washboard abs. My cognitive transverse abdominis is jacked. So sometimes when Gabe is really reading the letter, I am genuinely reacting as if it is my first time hearing it. That probably doesn't make me look very good, but it's the truth. I'll read a letter, make some notes, turn it over in my mind, and then days later, a million things have happened since then. We read it together days later, and I'll be like, oh, oh, his sister ratted him out. I Didn't catch that. The first hour. Wait, his mother said that I totally forgot about that. So it's kind of ridiculous, I know, but that is actually how my mind works or doesn't work.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is such a funny thing. I end up spending more time with the letters than you do because I pick them and I edit them, and then I read them several times while I'm taking, taking notes, but even I hear new things. And then when we read them together, because after I've thought about a story and then I reread it for the fourth, fifth, sixth time or whatever, the details do take on new meaning for me anyway. And I'll start making new connections, and then it's like I get to enjoy your stories all over again on a new level. And then sometimes Jordan will seize on a certain detail in a letter that also makes me pay attention in a new way. It's like, you know when you're hanging out with a really good friend, and then all of a sudden you're aware of, like, how funny something is that you would have missed when you. You're alone or they point something out and you're like, oh, yeah, that is weird. That is really beautiful. That is hilarious. You know, that just makes the letters new for me as well, all over again.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, that's part of our collaboration. I think seeing these letters through multiple prisms, it's an interesting thing, doing a show like this. Part of the magic. And I also have to give a shout out to Jace, our editor, who's just a wizard in the edit. So much of what is seamless about a great show is the editor's touch. Part of the magic is what he does to create this thing every week without pointing to the. The wires. But it's also kind of cool to pull back the curtain a little bit. And who knows, maybe our way of working gives you some ideas for how to do your own work and. Yeah, you know, kind of what Feedback Friday is all about learning from one another all the time. So thank you for ruining everything with your questions. No, I'm glad you're enjoying the show. Thank you for asking this question in our subreddit. I think that's kind of a fun place to discuss these kinds of things. And other people, so many people had the same or similar questions and upvoted it that we decided to bring it here on the show. Speaking of our subreddit, if you want to join us over there, it's on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. If you are a redditor, A lot of cool conversations happening over there. You know what? I'm definitely improvising on the fly and have not prepared at all this ad pivot. We'll be right back.

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keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment. Support the sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website@jordan harbinger.com deals and hey, if you can't find a code, something's not working for you. Do email me jordanordanharbinger.com somebody here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support support the show. Now time for the recommendation of the week.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I am addicted to lip filler.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

My recommendation of the week is and this is gonna sound kind of silly as many of these are, but it's the paint your own pottery places. You know, you pass these all the time and you never Go in there. A little while back, one of Jaden's friends from school invited him to go to one of these places. I think it was just like she was taking her kids and she's like, oh, come join us. Jen's like, hey, do you want to come? We're kind of close by right now. And I was like, I'll stay in the car. She's like, this is going to be like 90 minutes long at least. And so I was like, all right, I'll go in. And she's like, do you want to make a clay thing? And I was like, no, I'm just going to hang out. So the kids are painting Juniper and Jaden. They made piggy banks, which they still use months later. And then Jen's like, yeah, just make something. So Jen and I got into it. We made each other wedding ring holders out of these little things they have sort of pre made for you to paint. And now it sits on my desk and I put my ring on it from time to time. It's just a really cute thing that I see every day that my wife made for me and I made one for her and she got hers in her bathroom. And I noticed that my dad actually still uses a crappy bowl that I made for him in maybe kindergarten or something like that as a change bowl. And I remember they were like, do you want to glaze this? And I was like, no. So it's like this unglazed, painted, solid blue only with holes in it. Terrible, terrible clay bowl. And it's 40 plus years old on his desk that I made for him. You know, I was thinking the other day, because I went over to their house, they moved across the street a few years ago. The bowl is still on his desk. So he moved to California with this bowl that I made for him 40 years ago. And I just realized, like, wow, this bowl means something to him. This is a guy who got rid of everything, right? He basically kept like a chair, I think a bed, his desk and his clothes. And then he brought this crappy change bowl. So I'm kind of a fan of this. You pay a lot. It's expensive, it's something small. But what you get is super cute. And it's a fun thing to do together as a family or a friend group. So that's actually my wreck of the week. Go overpay for a crappy ceramic bowl and it might just become a family heirloom and a fun memory.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Color me mine.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

How about that? Yeah, how about that?

[Jordan Harbinger]

All right, next up, Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a fairly new listener of the show, last three months, but I love every minute of it. I feel like a genuinely better person and more critical thinker ever since I started. I am at a great point in my life with college kicking off, and I'm starting to make meaningful relationships that I hope will benefit me later in life as well is right now. So cool.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Amazing to hear. My friends, super proud of you. Yes, I've read this letter once before, but I literally just heard that as if it were the first time. And yes, I am genuinely proud of you, Gabe. This is weird. I'm super in my head about responding in real time. This is genuine, you guys. I swear I don't remember most of this stuff by the time I see it here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I am also incredibly blessed to have never experienced depression or a depressive episode or severe instability. I am almost always happy, which might be some different disorder I don't know about.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yeah, well, now you're just bragging. No, that's. That's fun. I mean, Dear Lucky, that's great. Great. Good for you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

At college, I have an awesome friend, group of people I've known since high school. What brought us together is a community theater that we all perform in. And we fall a bit into the dramatic stereotype in that most of us are very open about hardships and mental health struggles. Everyone in the group except me and this one other guy have talked about a depressive episode, and all the others talk about how they relate, but when they turn to me, I have nothing to say. Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but it feels like this is really becoming a wedge in my relationships with all these people. I currently just say something along the lines of, I'm so sorry that happens to you. Do you want to talk about it? But that feels more ineffective as time goes on.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Honestly, that's a great place to begin.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. The perfect place, I would say.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I wonder why that's becoming more and more ineffective. Do they want something different from this listener? Do they sense that they don't mean it, or they want to just complain about being depressed but not really talk about it? I'm confused.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Or is this all perfectly fine, but our friend is just being, like, maybe a tad paranoid that they're not fully there for them or something. Anyway, anyway, they go on. I really want to be able to make these friends feel like they are seen and heard, but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through. How would you talk to these friends about this? Difficult topic without them feeling distant or unheard. And how would you tackle conversations like this in general? Signed. Hitting a spot of trouble as I increasingly fumble when it comes to my friends. Mubble fubbles.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Interesting question. So, first of all, you sound like a solid friend, that you want the people around you to feel seen and heard, that you want to be there for them, especially since you haven't struggled in the same way. It's very touching. I'm sure it means a lot to them. As I said a moment ago, when you see a friend struggling and you say, I'm sorry, you're going through it, or you went through that, do you want to talk about it? I think that's a really thoughtful way to respond.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah. Truly one of the kindest things I think you can say to someone. Really. Do you want to talk? I'm here to listen. Whatever you want.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

I agree. Assuming you mean it, of course. You're not just saying the words to say the words and check a box. Or you say it and they start opening up and you either check or you start doing something else, like trying to talk them out of it, or you're giving them advice too quickly or something like that. I assume you're not doing any of that. It's just. It's good to keep an eye on those things. And if you offer and the other person doesn't take you up on it, that's perfectly all right. You can let it go, or you trust they'll take you up on it when they're ready. Or you can say, if you ever want to talk, I'm here. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do beyond that. Once they engage, we could talk about how to listen, how to relate, how to be in a tough conversation, how to be loving and supportive. But all that, it begins by just taking an interest in them in the first place, which you seem to be doing well.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's the relating part that our friend seems to be getting hung up on. Like they said, I really want to be able to make these friends feel seen and heard, but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through. There's something in there, but that's what

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

empathy is, isn't it? Relating to and identifying with somebody, even when you haven't been through what they've been through. That can be hard sometimes. It's not impossible.

[Jordan Harbinger]

I wonder if that might be where they're getting stuck, though. Like, can I really be there for someone if I haven't been through exactly what they've been through. But I'm with you, Jordan. Yes, of course. And how amazing that we have the capacity to do that. But we have to develop that capacity, especially if it doesn't come naturally to us. And you might have to listen for a little while and learn more about the other person to really be there for them. So if you're struggling to understand what it is your friends deal with, then that's a great opportunity to say, you know, it's weird, but I haven't really experienced depression before or I haven't dealt with it the way you have. So can you explain a little more? What does it feel like? How do you cope with it? What do you want from other people when you're feeling down, you know, how can I help? And then again, just listen. I'm sure that would mean a lot to them, too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's a nice approach for anything, really, not just depression. Gabe, I wonder if maybe our friend here is a little too concerned about supporting their friends.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, interesting. That's kind of what I was getting at a moment ago, but what do you mean by that?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, okay, it's super sweet. They want to be there for them. I think that comes from a genuine place. But I'm also hearing almost like an anxiety about not being there for them in the quote, unquote, perfect way. I don't know.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, I'm hearing that too.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

There's genuinely wanting to connect, understand, and worrying that you're not showing up in the best way for people. I get that. I appreciate that. And then there's this, like, obsessing or spinning out that you're failing your friends if you don't get them to talk about something or they don't see you as a person that they can talk to about a certain thing. And I wonder if both might be happening here.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, that's a really good observation. And so if there is a bit of that second anxiety, what is that about? Is our friend worried that these people are not going to stay close or they're not going to view our friend a certain way if they don't open up? Does our friend feels some guilt or maybe even like a perverse envy that they don't experience depression in the same way? Does our friend have some anxiety about being just being different from them? Like, huh, I don't struggle with the same stuff that they do? So am I really in the tribe or, you know, is my place in this friend group a little precarious because I'm not depressed, like, all the Theater kids, and, you know, I'm. I'm not able to be in their depression with them, so where do I stand?

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

That's interesting. You know, now that you put it like that, I have a strong feeling that the last thing is playing a role, especially at this age, what, 17, 18, hanging with friends who go back all the way to high school. I think in that stage, also as an adult, but especially as a young adult, this question of, do my friends and I share the same neuroses, the same struggles? It feels very important. And if you're on a different wavelength, in whatever significant way can feel a little scary.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, well put. Whereas the capacity for both difference and empathy hopefully increases as you age, and you can stay close with people who are very different from you, but you hopefully also don't care as much about belonging in that way.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Well, that's kind of where my mind is going. I don't want to be overly tough here, because this sounds like a sweet group of people, actors, community theater people, probably very, very sensitive, very extra, very in their feelings, and that probably creates a lot of intimacy, vulnerability, and that's sweet. But if your connection with these friends, if you're belonging in this group as a whole, depends largely on your mood states or your ability to get your friends to open up to you about their struggles, and that's the main thing these friendships hinge on, I'll put it this way, that's something to keep an eye on. Okay. I'm not telling you to ditch your friends or anything like that, but I. I also wouldn't work overly hard to stay close with people or fight for a certain place in a friend group, if that's the main connective tissue. And I get why it's a big part of this community. I get why you're concerned about it. But it's also just something interesting to notice why exactly this feels so urgent to you and how that shapes the dynamics of the group. But honestly, that's something I would say to anybody in any friend group, because the motivations and politics of friend groups get tricky sometimes. And it's okay to grow in different directions.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's okay to grow in different directions. And it's also okay to trust that you can have different mental health, these people and still be a valuable part of the group. You know, you can still love these people and you can still be loved, even if your mind works differently.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

Yes, but I love that you want to nurture your relationships. I love that you want to be there for people. That quality is going to serve you so well in life, but you might be learning about the limit of your influence on other people, the limit of your ability to get them to relate to you in the way that you want. It's important to remember that it's also up to other people to decide whether to accept your interest and empathy and respecting those signals. My feeling is keep being kind, keep being curious, keep being non judgmental and available and all that good stuff and keep listening and you truly can't go wrong. Thanks for joining our show fam. Well done on running with everything you're learning and for sharing your question with us. We need more emo community theater nerds in our community. Keeps me and Gabe in our feet in the feels. Good luck. Don't forget to check out our episodes. David Royce, Dr. Courtney Conley, Todd Rose, and our skeptical Sunday on the Moon if you haven't done so yet. Speaking of emo, the moon so dramatic, am I right? Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com, advertisers deals ways to support the show on the website as [e-mail] deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Insta Abriel Mizrahi if you want to see great waterfalls, some amazing waterfalls and barefoot feet pics. Actually you might make some extra money from from that. I don't know. Do I get a cut if people start buying your feet pics? We'll discuss this show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You probably don't picture drug cartel operations running through rural America, but that's exactly why they're so hard to stop. Mariana Van Zeller breaks down how these networks hide in plain sight, using everyday systems and small town blind spots to stay one step ahead.

[Unknown Speaker]

I've been covering the cartel for many years now and I sort of wanted to do A story about cartel presence in the US and one thing, once we started researching it, I realized that actually the story should be about all the things that we don't know about cartel presidency in the US including the fact that they're in small town America. So one of our first shoots for that episode was in Georgia. And we started with a murder investigation of this woman who was tortured and they cut off her fingers and then eventually killed her. And she was killed by the cartel. And it was in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. And then we followed the investigation and realized that they're everywhere and particularly like to operate in small town America. Less law enforcement, easier to hide the drugs and have their distribution networks. You know what was so interesting about that story is that in order to get access to the cartel in the US we actually had to go down to Mexico and gain permission and have them say yes. Because a lot of these groups have people that were for them in the US Obviously the US Is the end goals where they were sending their drugs. And so eventually he said, okay, we've got you. And it was all set up and we were supposed to meet them in Minnesota. We got there and then we waited and waited and waited for days and the guy never showed up. I want people to see many of these traffickers again. We do not condone what they do. It's difficult to even empathize. But the majority of the people that I talk to are people just like you and me that don't have the opportunities or the luck that we have. I try to always do my job as a journalist, which is hold people accountable.

[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If you want to hear how cartels hide in plain sight, Check out episode 1302 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

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[Gabriel Mizrahi]

If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H Vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-granger. Visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. This episode is sponsored in part by Something youg Should Know Podcast Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast flow focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently they've covered things like why we care so much, what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should Know has been featured in Apple's Shows We Love and it's got thousands of five star reviews because it's consistent. So if you want another show that scratches that, I want to understand how people in the world really work itch. Search for something you should know. Wherever you get your podcasts, look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.