1348: Medical Tourism | Skeptical Sunday

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode 1348: Medical Tourism | Skeptical Sunday
Date: June 21, 2026 | Host: Jordan Harbinger | Guest co-host: Nick Pell

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Skeptical Sunday, Jordan Harbinger and writer/researcher Nick Pell dissect the global industry of medical tourism—where people travel abroad for medical procedures, typically to save money or skip wait times. They investigate the promises and dangers behind “bargain” surgeries, debunk glamorous influencer narratives, and examine serious issues like lack of legal recourse, inadequate follow-up care, and the dark market of organ harvesting. Their conversation is a mix of practical warnings, grim facts, and their trademark banter.

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Key Discussion Points

The Allure—and Risks—of Medical Tourism

• Medical tourism is booming: 14–22 million people travel internationally each year for procedures (09:04).
• Popular destinations: Mexico, Thailand, Turkey, South Korea (10:02).
• Procedures range from dental to cosmetic (BBLs, veneers, Botox, lipo), but also include major surgeries (orthopedic, cardiac) (11:05).
• Common motivators: affordability, escaping long waits, and the influencer-sold dream of luxury care and vacation-like recoveries.

“On the surface, it’s the ultimate life hack... you recover on a beach somewhere, maybe on your stomach if you got the BBL. But behind the filtered recovery photos is a massive global industry that relies on wage arbitrage and a total lack of legal oversight.”
—Jordan [02:31]

Safety, Standards, and Legal Protections

• American medical facilities vs. abroad:
  • US has strict regulations, malpractice laws, and professional oversight—giving patients recourse if something goes wrong (06:05, 31:10).
  • Abroad, regulations/oversight vary hugely. Some clinics may have excellent reputations (e.g., hair transplants in Turkey), but many have minimal standards.
  • Brokers (travel “facilitators”) often lack accreditation, pushing patients toward clinics offering higher referral fees, not better care (16:02–21:14).
• Many medical tourists don’t get proper follow-up care—raising the risk and severity of complications (31:43).

“You’re essentially betting your life that nothing goes wrong, because if it does, there’s no undo button and no legal recourse.”
—Jordan [02:13]

The Real Cost of Bargain Surgeries

• Complications can be severe and expensive:
  • US hospitals pay out $26,000–$154,000 per botched-surgery patient returning from abroad (33:56).
  • Common complications: infection, wound dehiscence (leaking, non-healing wounds), hematomas (internal bleeding).
  • Deep vein thrombosis (DVT) risk soars with early post-op air travel (35:07–38:16).
  • Statistically, 5% of medical tourists report significant complications, with 67% requiring care back home (38:25).
  • Survivorship bias: social media highlights success stories, hiding a growing body count and thousands of disastrous outcomes (38:25–39:47).

“If your recovery plan involves a beach, a cocktail, and zero legal recourse, maybe balance that out with something sensible…”
—Jordan [41:19]

Grim Realities: Organ Harvesting and Human Rights Abuses

• Transplant tourism: Chinese clinics offer organ transplants with shockingly short wait times—possible only through forced organ harvesting (63:24–64:53).
• International organizations and UN tribunals confirm widespread use of prisoners (notably Falun Gong practitioners and Uyghurs) as organ sources (65:11–67:12).
• Some countries and US insurers now refuse to cover aftercare for transplants conducted in “high-risk” countries as deterrence (68:33).
• Enforcement is weak: economic interests override action against human rights abuses (69:44).

“Biologically, you cannot schedule a deceased donor transplant weeks in advance unless you know exactly when the donor’s going to die. This is what first tipped off international investigators.”
—Nick [64:53]

Red Flags and How to (Minimally) Protect Yourself

• Red Flags for Medical Tourists:
  • BOGO or Groupon-like deals for surgery (72:02)
  • No oversight, licensure, or hospital access for emergencies (72:37)
  • Brokers or clinics pushing you to stack multiple procedures in one visit
  • Push to return home quickly after major surgery (increases risk of thrombosis)
  • No or unverifiable accreditation
• Due diligence advice:
  • Start with credible health websites (CDC alerts), legitimate plastic surgery associations
  • Ask specifically which hospital(s) your surgeon has admitting privileges at
  • Prioritize clinics with international accreditations (JCI, ISAPS)
  • Treat too-good-to-be-true pricing with skepticism—“you are also trading away your right to legal recourse and your surgeon’s accountability for follow-up care” (73:52).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Witty Banter & Dark Ironies

• “My wife’s desire to transform herself into a walking advertisement for a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon is kind of why I know a lot about these procedures.”
  —Nick [04:15]

• “We do love a bargain, but I like having a living wife better.”
  —Nick [04:39]

• “In the United States, surgeons won’t [stack surgeries] for the most part because the risk of pulmonary embolism and surgical shock skyrockets... Abroad, it’s like, oh, it’s the mommy makeover package—get six different procedures.”
  —Nick [47:07]

• “If your surgeon sells vape cartridges out of the front office, we need to talk.”
  —Jordan [59:50]

Stark Warnings

• “We aren’t talking about a one in a million freak accident. We’re talking about a measurable rising body count… The patient becomes a customer and the body becomes a commodity.”
  —Jordan [61:47, 74:59]

• “BBLs are the deadliest cosmetic procedure in human history.”
  —Nick [56:27]

Indicator of Systemic Issues

• “The global medical market is not a loophole. It is a trade-off.”
  —Nick [73:56]

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Important Timestamps

• 02:13 – Medical tourism: the risks behind the influencer/TV-fueled dream
• 06:05 – Key differences in legal and medical standards around the world
• 09:04 – How big is medical tourism? (global and US numbers)
• 10:02 – Most popular global destinations
• 11:05 – Dentistry, surgery, and the surprise breakdown of procedures abroad
• 14:21 – Gender and age demographics in medical tourism
• 16:02 – Medical tourism brokers and their ethical pitfalls
• 31:10 – Regulation, risk externalization, and long-term problems
• 33:56 – The financial impact of botched surgeries on US healthcare
• 35:07 – Recovery/flying risks, and what legit clinics do differently
• 38:25 – Survivorship bias and (rare) complication data
• 47:07 – The danger of stacking surgeries
• 56:27 – BBLs: deadly statistics and an influencer culture horror story
• 62:45 – The dark world of organ harvesting
• 64:53 – How China’s transplant system exposed itself
• 68:33 – Ethical personal choices and legal (in)action
• 72:02 – Practical risk management and red flags for patients
• 73:56 – The true “trade-off” of cut-rate medical tourism

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Conclusion

This episode calls for skepticism and informed caution regarding medical tourism. Cosmetic procedures and life-saving surgeries can look like a bargain, but the hidden costs—physical, financial, and ethical—can be astronomical. For those determined to go abroad, due diligence is essential, but even the best efforts can’t substitute for robust legal protections, thorough follow-up care, and honest data. As Nick summarizes, the “hack” is a trade-off, and the stakes are often your health—or your life.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you in part by Air Doctor. You know, it's funny, we filter our water, exercise, wear organic clothing, and then we just sit around breathing whatever's floating through the house. But clean air matters. You're breathing it all day, all night, while you sleep. Your kids are sleeping while you're working, relaxing or dealing with allergies, Dust odors, Wildfire season, which happens more and more now. That's why we've added Air Doctor into the mix at home and for us it's about cleaner air for the family, fewer odors and extra peace of mind. Air Doctor uses powerful three stage filtration that captures extremely small particles, about 100 times smaller than what typical air purifiers can remove. It helps capture dust, pollen, mold spores, pet dander, wildfire, smoke, bacteria, viruses, odor smoke, ozone, VOCs, volatile organic compounds. It's whisper quiet, has auto mode to help ensure optimal air 247 and filter reminders so there's no guesswork about when to replace things. Air Doctor won Newsweek's Reader's Choice Award for Best Air Purifier. Head to AirDoctorPro.com and use promo code JORDAN to get $250 off select AirDoctor air purifiers, including the 3500, 4000 and 5500 models. You will receive Air Doctor's 30 day money back guarantee. This is an exclusive podcast only offer available now at airdoctorpro.com, that's a I R D O C T-O-R-P-R-O.com and use promo code Jordan. Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co host, writer and researcher Nick Pell on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers. On Sundays though, we do Skeptical Sunday, a rotating guest co host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic, such as astrology, recycling, toothpaste D pills and energy drinks. If you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime and cults, and more. It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today on the show, you might have seen episodes of botched where Dr. Dubrow and Dr. Nassif have to piece somebody back together after a bargain surgery went south. In fact, a contributor in a way of our own show had to deal with that at one point. We'll get into that later. Usually that story starts with a flight to another country and a price tag that seemed a little bit too good to pass up. On today's Skeptical Sunday, we're talking about medical tourism. On the surface, it's the ultimate life hack, right? You fly to Turkey, you fly to Mexico, you get a Brazilian butt lift or a new set of veneers for 70% off, and you recover on a beach somewhere, maybe on your stomach if you got the bbl. But it's the dream sold by influencers and reality TV alike. But behind the filtered recovery photos is a massive global industry that relies on wage arbitrage and a total lack of legal oversight. When you leave the country for a procedure, you're also leaving behind malpractice laws, insurance and safety regulations. You're essentially betting your life that nothing goes wrong because if it does, there's no undo button and no legal recourse. Today, we're talking at the true cost of these savings. We'll break down why the complications are often socialized by U.S. hospitals while the profits stay private. We're also going to take a look at the darkest edge of this marketplace, where the lack of transparency leads to genuine human rights horrors like forced organ harvesting. It's a look at what happens when the human body becomes just another link in the global supply chain. Here today to help me separate the cosmetic from the chaotic is writer and researcher Nick Pell. Nick, how many cc's did you get for your Brazilian butt lift?

[B]

Zero. I just got a ton of tattoos, but my wife really wants a ton of procedures, so saving my pennies for that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Every single episode of Skeptical Sunday contributes to what your your Get My Wife Freakishly Large Boobs fund.

[B]

Yes, that is actually exactly what she wants. And freakishly large is a good way of putting what she wants.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

My wife's desire to transform herself into a walking advertisement for a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon is kind of why I know a lot about These procedures. And we've actually had conversations about exactly why she will not be flying to Turkey to get a thousand cc's of silicon put in her boobs.

[A]

That's weird, though, because we both know you guys love a bargain.

[B]

We do love a bargain, but I like having a living wife better.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Even if you trust a doctor in Bolivia, which, by the way, I don't. There's tons of other issues you're going to run into getting plastic surgery abroad in the best case scenario.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's important to point out that there are tons of countries where you can do medical tourism that's super safe. You know, I can go to Taiwan and get probably around 20 grand worth of health checks for like $4,000. I know that's still expensive, but stuff like scans for early stage cancer, tons of blood work, MRIs, CAT scans, CT scans, whatever. Tons of exploratory stuff. I mean, I had like a thyroid scan, and they're like, you have little things in there that we got to check up on in a year or two, because that might be nothing. It's probably nothing, but it could also be like stage zero cancer, basically. And so, like, I'm going back this year, and if it's bigger, they're going to do something about it. And if it's not, then they just let it go. And the truth is, most people have something like that. You just find out about it when it's all over your body and you have to do chemo or you're going to die. So I'm like, let me get ahead of that. And Taiwan has the third best health care system in the world, at least on the ranker that I took a look at. So it's not like I'm not flying to a Caribbean island to get a dick implant. All right, anyway, what are some of the differences between the American health care system and health care systems abroad? Just generally, besides the fact that ours is super expensive and everybody complains about it.

[B]

I'm not, you know.

[A]

You know what I'm talking about.

[B]

Yeah. Malpractice laws is the big one. Laws in general, it's a pain because malpractice insurance and litigation drive up the cost of American medical care, as I'm sure you know, because I'm sure you've had heard doctors talk about it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But they also mean that you have a recourse if things go wrong. So if you're getting a thousand ccs of silicone pumped into your chest in Bolivia, there's a lot of things that can go wrong.

[A]

Right? And people aren't thinking about that when they see somebody got a BBL in Thailand for 1000 bucks using basically a Groupon they found on Instagram.

[B]

In fairness, I'm sure tons of people go abroad, save a few bucks, get the exact same procedures they wanted, and they're fine. But you're taking a massive risk. The world's best doctors are in the United States. I'm not really aware of anybody who disputes this. This is especially true when you're talking about unnecessary elective cosmetic procedures. Countries with single payer and other forms of not for profit healthcare just do not have the same robust market for doctors that we do in the good old US of A. Before people jump on me for this, according to Newsweek, out Of the top 10 hospitals in the world, four of them are in the United States.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Mass General, and the Cleveland Clinic. Doctors in the United states perform roughly 22% of all global cosmetic surgeries. 7.4 million procedures annually. And when it comes to plastic surgery, volume correlates heavily with skill. American doctors are just getting their reps in, in a way that doctors abroad are not.

[A]

Yeah, okay, so I want to also just sort of say, like, we're not saying, hey, doctors in Turkey and Thailand are bad and they're going to kill you. This is like exclusively cosmetic surgery that you don't need. And the skill of the health system as a whole, not like the doctor that you are or your cousin is or used in Bangkok is automatically terrible. I don't want to get emails about that because I was like, that's like, not.

[B]

And the risk of getting an MRI is like zero.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Like, if you're getting an MRI in Turkey, it's fine unless they're bashing you over the head with a hammer or something. When they put you in the machine, like, it's fine. We're talking about a clinic in. I mean, the thing is there's like guys in Mexico doing 5 BBLS a day and they're getting their reps in nick. But I worry that some of them might not actually be doctors. And that's kind of where I'm going with this. Not like, oh, Mexican doctors aren't real doctors. But like, no, this person is a guy who dropped out of nursing school in the United States and went screw it. My cousin runs a clinic in Tijuana and he can show me how to do inject silicone into somebody's butt. This isn't that hard. And they're doing a bunch of those. But, yeah, that's not because they're qualified. It's because there's nobody stopping them. So do we know how many people are engaged in medical tourism every year?

[B]

The Medical Tourism association estimates roughly 14 to 22 million people a year travel internationally for medical care. Medical tourism is valued at approximately 40 to 48 billion in 2025 and is currently growing at between 15 to 20% annually as of 2024. 2025 estimates suggest that over 1 million Americans are again crossing borders for medical reasons.

[A]

I can't even believe there's a medical tourism association. What is that for? Advocacy group, I guess.

[B]

It's a nonprofit trade organization.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Dedicated to medical tourism and the international patient industry. And it's headquartered in. Drumroll.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

West Palm Beach, Florida.

[A]

0. I was going to guess Miami, but I think West Palm beach is like, basically that, but, like. Yeah. Okay, so what are the biggest. What are the biggest destinations for medical tourism?

[B]

Mexico gets over a million international patients a year. Most of these are from the US and Canada. Thailand is getting over 3 million annually. That's the big spot in the Asia Pacific region. Turkey sees hundreds of thousands of visitors a year specifically for hair transplants. They do about 1500 of these every day.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Stomach, Botox, weight loss procedures is another big one. And South Korea reached a record high of 1.17 million foreign medical tourists in 2025.

[A]

Someone close to me went to Turkey for a hair transplant, and I have to say, they crushed it. It was really, really well done. Which I guess shouldn't be a surprise when there's 1500 per day being done over there. That's like a chunk of their economy. That's crazy. What are the main procedures people are looking for? Hair transplants obviously, is serious, at least in Turkey, but I find it hard to believe that 3 million people are getting, I don't know, double eyelid surgery in Thailand every year.

[B]

Surprisingly, the big one is dentistry. It's over half. 55% of medical tourism trips every year are for dentistry. Cosmetic surgery is somewhere between 17 and 24% of the industry, and the rest is taken up by cardiovascular surgery, fertility treatments like IVF and orthopedic surgery.

[A]

We're talking about not just cosmetic surgery for medical tour. I just. I don't know why. I guess I assumed all of it was just like, I want a tummy tuck, and it's expensive. So these procedures, it seems like the people would skew older. Specifically, the cardio and orthopedic surgery. I mean, I don't know a lot of 25 year olds or 30 year olds going to get a orthopedic surgery done.

[B]

Well, it depends on what you mean by older, because I got some bad news for you about my age and your age.

[D]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

We're old people now.

[A]

Lay it out. Lay it on me.

[B]

So baby boomers are the wealthiest age cohort in America, so they're more likely to just have it done down the street. Here in America, the majority of medical tourists are between 40 and 60, and they want stuff like hip and knee replacements on the cheap. There's been a surge in people 30 to 45 seeking surgery abroad. That's the prime demographic for lipo, BBLS, veneers, hair transplants. Also, it's weird that those four things are lumped in together because two of them are like, you might die and the other two are like, you might have an ugly hairline.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. At worst, yes.

[B]

So what you're seeing is Gen Xers who are just too broke to get medically necessary surgery done domestically, and millennial digital natives who don't think any of this is at all suspect because they heard about it online and you know, they trust influencers. In fact, their problem is that they're going to be more credulous of whatever it is that the influencers have to say than traditional advertising.

[A]

So seniors are mostly not engaging in medical tourism because they don't need to.

[B]

They are just not to the same degree. Like I mentioned, like, boomers are the wealthiest age cohort in America, but a lot of them are on fixed incomes. So with the cost of healthcare constantly on the rise, they need to find ways to get today's procedures done at yesterday's prices. So they fly to Costa Rica, they fly to Panama, Thailand, and that's where they get their dental overhauls or long term cardiac care. There's also tons of people from countries like the UK and Canada with socialist medicine who just don't want to sit on a waiting list forever. So they go somewhere with a strong private sector or a stronger private sector anyway, that's also way cheaper than where they live. The one common denominator among age groups and nationalities is that it's mostly women. It's 60% of all people engaged in medical tourism. But Turkey got such a name for doing hair transplants as we mentioned, that 90% of people who are going to Turkey for medical tourism are mentioned.

[A]

Yeah, okay, that kind of makes sense. Do we have any stats on men versus women when we're talking about cosmetic procedures versus more necessary procedures? I don't I guess I just assumed other than hair transplants, it was mostly women getting, you know, fake boobs, for example.

[B]

Well, we don't have anything specific, but we do know that the overwhelming majority of people getting cosmetic surgery are women. That's north of 80%. It's fair to infer that this would skew harder towards women if we were only talking about cosmetic surgery.

[A]

What's the history of this? How did countries like Thailand and Turkey even get these industries in the first place? It seems so random, I guess. I don't like. How does any of this happen, really?

[B]

Well, globalization also creates global labor arbitrage. This is where companies decide labor is cheaper somewhere else, so they build their business where labor is cheap.

[A]

Okay. Hence why cars are not made in Detroit anymore.

[B]

Correct. But labor arbitrage doesn't just apply to manufacturing. Individual consumers might decide that a product or service isn't something they want to pay American labor prices for, but they're going to pay Turkish and Thai labor prices for it that they're comfortable doing. I mean, the last three companies I've worked for, the entire admin team, is in the Philippines, I think may even be the last four, like admin teams for e comm businesses are like always in the Philippines or Indonesia or, you know, Belarus or somewhere.

[A]

Malaysia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Regulation and accreditation might also be lower somewhere else. And that's going to drive down the price because it's just not as hard or expensive to get going.

[A]

What's the deal with the medical tourism brokers? I've seen these advertising online as well.

[B]

The travel agents no one knew existed. They're Exactly. Yeah. They're sometimes called facilitators, but they might as well be called salesmen. So let's say you want to, you know, go to Turkey and get veneers. How are you going to do that?

[A]

Well, that's a good question because I have no idea. But I would probably start Googling hospitals in Turkey with English websites or just Google like Turkey veneers and pick one that didn't only have Turkish. As a result, this. This already sounds like a really bad idea and I would probably try to find somebody who can help me. Yeah.

[B]

So nobody knows how to go get veneers and jerky.

[A]

Okay. As it turns out, no patience. Yeah. Nobody out of nowhere. Yeah. The patients.

[B]

Right. Well, there are people, they're the brokers.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So there's tons of moving pieces involved. And the brokers, they fill the gap.

[A]

And this is legal. I feel like that's. We don't have that here.

[B]

No, we don't. It's not legal in the United States. There are specifically laws against kickbacks. You cannot pay someone for referrals in the United States. But as anyone who's ever been to a Mexican pharmacy knows, I think someone may be listening right now who has. This is not the case in other countries.

[A]

No, I mean, I. I've definitely never purchased contraband at a Mexican pharmacy that the doctor who works next door told me to go to. That's never been anything I've done as a child.

[B]

Yeah. Bet it wasn't the same thing I get off the dark web either.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And a lot of other countries paying for referrals isn't just legal and allowed, it's completely normal. So if you've been to Mexico, you know that if you want a drug from a pharmacy, lo and behold, wouldn't you know it, there's a doctor right next door to the pharmacy who's going to diagnose you with whatever your heart desires. And you're going to walk over to that pharmacy with the script that he just gave you after, you know, you told him what you wanted. A script? Yeah. Right, right. And you're going to get it. You know, like basically anything short of OxyContin. They're not going to give you opioids, but other than that, they'll give you anything. Right.

[A]

I feel like my testosterone is really low. Even though I'm 20 years old and I work out all the time, I definitely need some help with that. Okay. Yeah, go to the vet next door and make sure. Get this particular thing from a vet. I remember when I lived in Mexico, I wasn't into that particularly, but I. There were tons of guys at the gym and I remember being like, let's go eat. And they're like, hold on, we gotta go do something. And we would walk to literally like a veterinarian and they would be like, oh, yeah, I need something for my horse. And the guy would just start laughing and like hand over a big ass bottle of, I don't know, horse steroids. I guess they would just be like, cool, thanks.

[B]

Trend balloon.

[A]

Yeah, it was like Equipoise. Something called Equipoise or something.

[B]

I think Aquapoise is Tren Ballone.

[A]

Oh, maybe.

[B]

Yeah, because they all have like six different names and maybe it's not, I don't know.

[A]

But it is Boldenone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Undeclinate, a veterinary anabolic steroid used primarily to treat debilitated horses, improving appetite and weight gain, is an androgenic Steroid. Its function is to enhance muscle growth and red blood cell production. Side effects include overaggressiveness, not for human use. Okay, well, that explains a few things with these guys. You know, getting in fights with hot dog vendors essentially for absolutely no reason, and each other all the time. Yeah. Anyway, so, okay, tell me about the brokers.

[B]

The brokers work on commission. That comes with a whole host of ethical issues. They get anywhere between 10 to 40% of what your procedure costs.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that means not only might they push you towards procedures you don't actually need or want, it also means that they're going to send you to the clinic with the highest commissions, not the ones with the lowest infection rates or the ones who are the best at doing what you want or need. Yeah. They're also often partnered with influencers who they use to market their services to a broader audience.

[A]

Yuck. Yeah. Okay. All of a sudden, the infection factory looks like a med spa in Beverly Hills and someone's like swimming in a pool after their liposuction or something and they're like, this place is great. The food is amazing. And I can just. I've seen these reels or whatever where they're like laying out and I'm like, didn't you just get whatever stomach, Botox, you know, they're just like hanging out and showing it off. I never even figured that they were getting paid, but also, I mean, I figured they were getting paid, but I didn't also think that there was a broker that they were sending people to that was also getting. I mean, that just seems. This is a recipe for disaster.

[B]

Yes. So they're not going to show you the person who got mrsa, right. And spent weeks fighting that infection off. I mean, why would they? By the time you realize that what you thought was a luxury recovery suite is actually a filthy old hotel with no medical staff, you're out thousands, you're in a foreign country and you can't move.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, some of these hospital. I've seen some of the Thailand and Taiwan hospitals as well, and they're super nice, but you don't necessarily know what you're getting when you book this thing sight unseen. Right. With the AI photos and stuff. So how does one become a broker?

[B]

They like to call themselves case managers or health coordinators. And you become one. The same way you become a nutritionist. You start calling yourself one.

[A]

I see. Okay.

[B]

I'm a nutritionist.

[A]

Congratulations.

[B]

Yeah, exactly like, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm a nutritionist now because I said I AM one is.

[A]

There's.

[B]

There's no official procedure.

[A]

Yeah, what do you call accreditation?

[B]

There's no licensure certification. You just wake up one morning and declare yourself to be one and lo and behold, you are.

[A]

Look, y', all, if you're gonna let a doctor remodel your face in a strip mall overseas, at least make one good decision today, like supporting the sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Zazzle. We're planning Jaiden's birthday party and Zazzle has been amazing. We made custom goodie bag tags, a custom seventh birthday shirt. Everything fits the theme without us having to jump between a bunch of different sites. Pick a product, choose or build a design, add your details, and Zazzle handles the rest of the Zazzle has also become my go to for people who are impossible to shop for. My brother in law just got a new puppy, Milo. So we ordered custom tea towels and a beach towel with Milo's face on them. They were made and shipped so fast and I cannot wait to see his face when I gift it to him. We also ordered a mug from my dad with the kids photos on it that says best grandpa ever. Fine. It's a little cliche, but I'm not just saying this. He literally teared up. He was really moved. Personalized gifts hit different plus, Zazzle ships super fast, which is clutch when your gift idea is thoughtful. But your timeline is not so thoughtful right now. Save 25% on your first order at Zazzle.com that's 25% savings on your first order at ZazzlE.com. go make something zamazing. Yes, they made me say that. It's part of the copy. Zazzle.com this episode is sponsored in part by Concierge Maryland. I've tried plenty of telehealth and concierge services over the years, and a lot of them sound great until you actually need something. Then you're waiting on shipping. You're chasing them down. You're sitting through rushed appointments where nobody really explains anything. That has not been my experience with concierge MD at all. What stands out most is how responsive they are. Orders get sent to the pharmacy quickly, and in my experience, medications have shipped the next day or shortly thereafter. But it's not just speed. It's about communication. They take the time to explain what I'm taking, how it works, why it matters. They don't talk down to me, and they're not trying to rush me off the phone after a few minutes. That is surprisingly rare. And for me, health and performance aren't one size fits all. I want a physician led team that looks at the bigger picture. Energy, sleep, recovery, hormones, longevity, travel, lifestyle, and helps me understand what is actually going on. They even helped with documentation that I needed for a trip to China and sent a travel thermos fridge thing to help keep medication cold during the flight. Small detail, but it showed that they really were paying attention. Concierge MD works around your schedule and keeps everything connected under one roof. Go to conciergemd.com Jordan and use code Jordan. Don't forget about our newsletter, Wee Bitwiser. It's a bite sized gem from us to you every single Wednesday. Asterisk, most Wednesdays under two minute reads. Really, really fun to write. Really, really fun to read according to y'. All. So go to Jordan harbinger.com/news. That's where you can find it. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. So throwing your hat in the ring being the whole requirement, that's kind of, kind of like starting a podcast. Okay, so brokers, they also try to pitch it like a vacation. I've seen this. They'll encourage you to, you know, see the sites. And that to me seems a little dangerous depending on what kind of procedure you had. I mean, I guess my point is the broker is also not a doctor. A doctor would. I don't speak for all doctors, but I'm going to go ahead and say a doctor is never going to tell you to hoof it around the Istanbul farmer's market less than a week after you had a bunch of invasive surgeries done on your body.

[B]

No. And you can absolutely do medical tourism, that's relatively safe. Dental care, it can go wrong. But like the how wrong can it go matters here. But these elective procedures from someone who knows what they're doing and does follow up, you know, that's the other piece of the puzzle. Like you mentioned Taiwan, like Taiwan has an excellent medical system. Other countries are not known for having excellent medical systems.

[A]

And generally sort of the cheaper the cosmetic surgery is, the less it's gonna potentially the less safe it's gonna be, I should say.

[B]

Yeah. And then the other thing is, you know, if the goal is kind of like speed and stacking as many surgeries as possible on the same trip, you are going to have a bad time.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I hadn't thought about that. But you're right, it's kind of like, hey, I've got one week, should I get a hair transplant, come back. Then a year later, six Months later, fly back to Turkey, get this thing done. It's like, no, get the hair transplant, the silicone face injections, the tummy tuck and the BBL at the same time. Because you know, like you're here and you only have two weeks of vacation. You know, don't you want to? So anyway, but let's talk about that later because I have more questions about that. But why are so many Americans doing this? Other than cost, which I'm sure is a big driver. It's a big world out there and Americans being the number one medical tourists. I probably shouldn't be, but it is surprising to me somehow.

[B]

Well, a big part of this is an incentive gap. Physicians are just not going to make a killing doing veneers and BBLs in England like you would in the United States.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There's also the size of the market. America is kind of unique in that it both has a large population and its population is affluent enough to, to have a robust market.

[A]

Okay. But China, Russia, Australia, Brazil, they're all kind of big in terms of population and size. Well, Australia I guess maybe not so much, but yeah. Don't they have the same level of disposable income that average Americans have? Is that why? I mean, maybe they don't. I have no idea.

[B]

No, no, not at all. No, they don't. They don't. China, India. That's why America sits in a sweet spot. Large population with disposable middle class income.

[A]

I see.

[B]

As an American, you can move to basically any other country in the world and pay as much, but get more.

[A]

By the way, I don't want people to think I'm absolutely a moron. I know people in China, Russia and Brazil make a little bit less. I just meant relatively speaking, isn't there a huge middle class? But I guess not really.

[B]

Not like the United States. Not like the United States. America is the like the perfect market for everything for this reason. Yeah.

[A]

China's got to be on the come up for that though. And I have sort of seen like China getting more cosmetic surgeries and stuff like that. But anyway, whatever. That's neither here nor there.

[B]

Yeah. So in America a middle class person can save their pennies and see a top end plastic surgeon. You could see a top end domestic surgeon as a plastic surgeon. As a, you know.

[A]

Yeah, you're just going to be paying it off for like two years and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, you're going to be paying it off forever. You're going to be saving up, blah, blah, blah. But you could do it. But Then it's like, okay, you know, well, I could do it in Brazil and it's like half a week's wages, you know.

[A]

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Most people, that is not within their reach. That's a really good example of the, like the difference between the American middle class and the Chinese or the Russian or English middle class for that matter. The point here isn't to be alarmist though. It's just to let people know that the world of cheap cosmetic surgery abroad can come with some very high costs.

[A]

So people who do this, do they kind of think they're going to get the exact same surgery at significantly lower cost? Because I assume that they think, hey, it's basically the same thing as the US where I'm just not paying for the USA markup. But right out of the starting gate, that's wrong. Right? How is plastic surgery abroad different?

[B]

So even if you trust the doctors to do their job properly, and we're going to get into that part of things later, they are not even dealing with the same raw materials. Here's a really good example. There are 20 FDA approved injectable fillers in other countries. It can be as high as 190. And you know what, Maybe all those fillers are fine. I genuinely have no idea. Maybe they are. But what I do know is that 170 of them are illegal to stick in your body in the United States.

[A]

I've seen other comments about this with fillers specifically because I was doing that dick episode several months ago and there is stuff that's like, better for that, but it's just too expensive to get FDA approved, even though it might be better. But the other issue that a doctor here told me about, Dr. [e-mail], one of the things that he told me was like, hey, we just don't also have long term data on this. And so the FDA does not like stuff like that. Like they don't want to find out that, oh yeah, this filler was better. But it turns out you can get necrotic tissue after about 10 years and you're going to have to have your wiener whacked off. Like that's not. Probably shouldn't say whacked off, cut off, that's not good. Anyway, so for whatever reason, at least some of these fillers are illegal ostensibly because of safety reasons or a lack of long term data or whatever.

[B]

Sure. And like whatever, maybe in 20 years we'll have 190 legal fillers in the United States.

[A]

And then there's going to be 400 used abroad, but yes, I get your point.

[B]

American facilities, in addition to government oversight, are regularly inspected by private accreditation bodies such as the American association for Accreditation of Ambulatory Surgery Facilities. That's the quadruple asf. I guess they're branded.

[A]

They're taking liberties there, but okay, yeah,

[B]

they're currently branded as quad a. They require 100% compliance with very strict standards for staff, equipment, operating procedures, things like that. I don't know what the bar is for the regulatory body, but I would bet money, sight unseen, that theirs are much higher. So it's a good, quick and easy way to filter out who the hack jobs are. In the United States. Do they have this accreditation, yes or no? Abroad, it's far more common to just go shopping for somebody who gives you the green light. We talked about the, you know, the pharmacies earlier. Stateside, when you get a procedure of any kind of. You're not just paying for the actual procedure. You're paying for your little share of a $50,000 per year compliance officer who makes sure that they get that accreditation by seeing that instruments aren't washed in leftover dishwater before they cut you open with them. Ugh. Yeah.

[A]

For a guy who hates regulations, bro, you're making a pretty strong case for regulations right now.

[B]

Well, the thing is, people just assume that there's the same kind of regulatory rigor abroad as there is in the. In the states. And I'm totally fine with people using whatever medical care they want, but they also need to be aware of what they're getting into.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Another aspect that people don't understand is the externalization of risk. So you go to a sketchy American doctor and you get a bbl. That sucks. But hey, guess what? He's legally and ethically responsible. There's gonna be consequences for this guy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are gonna be dire consequences for this guy.

[A]

Yeah, he's going to jail if he screws this up.

[B]

Yeah, he's losing his license at best. So nearly three quarters of all medical tourists are not even getting proper follow up after their procedure, which makes the chances of something going wrong much greater. Part of the reason for the follow up is, remember we talked about, you know, catching stage zero cancer before it becomes. Yeah, catching these little problems that if they go untreated, become very, very big problems.

[A]

You know, that's interesting you mentioned that because I. As I said on the wiener episode several months ago, again, Dr. Pash over [e-mail], i should probably verify that URL, but whatever. The dick doctor. I wanted to, like, sort of do a Louis Theroux and get, like, something checked for my. Or have the procedure myself. I didn't have the procedure, obviously, but he filled this little tiny dent. Cause I was, like, looking for a reason to have a needle stuck in my penis just so I could talk about it on the show. You're welcome, everybody. But even then, he was like, hey, FYI, even if I put, like, this half CC into this little, like, thumbprint on your wiener, like, you have to come back in a week and. Or do a somewhat awkward FaceTime so that I can make damn sure. And he made me come in. Like, he was like, I want to feel that wiener in my hands. You know, like, he's like, I want to make sure that it's not inflamed, that there's not the weird stuff happening with the tissue around it. And I was thinking to myself, when we were doing the notes for this episode, I was like, wait a minute. What happens if the person who did the original whatever it is to you is in Thailand and you're back in Bristol? You just don't get to do that. Like, and if you go to wherever and you get a bbl, like a really serious one, and you get a gnarly infection, you are not flying back to your medical tourism destination to get it treated. You're going to the emergency room and you're in the UK or in the US or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. Which honestly makes me kind of mad because you and I are paying for that.

[A]

Yeah. I wondered about that. Right. If they can't afford it, it's going to be Medicare, Medicaid, whatever. Or it's just insurance companies go, well, we got to raise rates because all this medical tourism and people are coming back with infections and, like, we got to. We had to pay for that. So everybody else's insurance for getting hit by a car is going up by $100.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A recent study found that the average cost for a US Hospital for a botched surgery done abroad, it's that specific. Ranges from 26,000 to $154,000. So the patient saved 5,000 bucks. But the US healthcare system, which is your tax dollars and your premiums, just paid six figures to save their life because they wanted to save a few bucks on a. On a bbl. Yeah.

[A]

Great. So you get a bootleg butt strapped on, and the American public has to pay the equivalent of a small suburban house in 1997.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To make sure that you don't croak as a result. Great.

[B]

Okay, stay tuned for the housing crisis episode, and we'll explain why you can't get a house for $150,000 anymore.

[A]

Maybe in Compton, you can rent a room in a house for that. You can get a condo for that much these days. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so even in the best case scenario, the chances of complications are high because after you get the procedure done, you're gonna go sit on a plane for 10 hours, and that causes a condition known as deep vein thrombosis, or dvt.

[A]

You know, I've actually heard about this, and I just remember it's like, oh, if your flight is over X number of hours, you should, like, do airplane aisle yoga.

[B]

Ye.

[A]

The blood doesn't pool. Something. Something in your feet. I don't know. It's one of those silent killers that you can't. You can't really see it until it's too late, and then you're in deep doo doo. So I think the short version is you get a blood clot, usually in your leg, because of the way that you're seated or just from being seated, which then breaks up and then goes to your heart and stops it from beating, kind of. So your body treats surgery as a major injury and starts clotting much more easily, like crazy in some people. And then you go sit on a plane in the sky in a economy plus seat for four, if you're lucky for 14 to get home. And the recovery time, as far as I know, for most surgeries before you're safe to fly, cabin pressure, dehydration, sitting for 10, 14 hours, whatever, it's like a month or more.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And most of these medical holiday places, they've got you out the door in, like, a week or less.

[B]

Yeah. Five to seven days is pretty typical. I've actually never seen the television series Botched, but, oh, you're missing out. In the course of researching this, I learned that how soon after did you fly? Is the question the doctors ask everyone who walks in the door.

[A]

Yeah. Frankly, I'm slightly amazed that you of all people have never seen that show. It's a funny guilty pleasure to watch. Like, if you're in a hotel and you've got cable, which I haven't had since, like, childhood. It's up there with Dr. Pimple Popper and 90 Day Fiance, where you're like, oh, botched is on for the next seven hours. Just turn it on while we exist in this hotel room and we'll, like, glance at The TV every seven minutes.

[B]

It's more my wife's thing. I'm a bar rescue guy.

[A]

That guy was on my show. What is his name again? The bar rescue guy that he just like, screams at people.

[B]

I don't know his name. I just like, I've worked in bars and stuff. So I. I love when he goes into some place that's functionally identical to a place I used to work and screams at people for problems that would have bothered me when I was working there.

[A]

John Taffer.

[B]

John Taffer.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was on the show and he's. I was like, oh, he's a pretty nice guy. And then I was. But as I was watching Bar resc. Oh, I see. He is a. Like, he's basically a Gordon Ramsay on the show. He's just like screaming at people.

[B]

Gordon Ramsay for bars.

[A]

Right. Exactly. Another reminder, by the way, that I need to come hang with your wife at some point and watch trash ass TV inane reruns of Bravo shows where people almost kill themselves for, you know, bigger whatevers on their body.

[B]

I'll make sure to have popcorn and barf bags ready for the both of you.

[A]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[B]

Anyway, yeah, traveling too soon can double or even quadruple your chances of getting thrombosis.

[A]

Right. And the thing is, you don't get thrombosis just by not flying. I feel like there's a whole set of medical apparatus that legit clinics have on hand so that you don't die because you went to get your boobs lifted someplace.

[B]

Yeah. They also have prescription drugs and will recommend that you extend your stay if they think it's medically necessary. A lot of people need more than just rest and hydration after they had a major procedure like breast implants or tummy tuck or whatever.

[A]

How common are problems when it comes to medical tourism? Because I don't know, I don't hear about this, but I also don't know anybody who does this other than the hair transplant guy that I mentioned before.

[B]

We don't really know because there's a survivorship bias involved here.

[A]

I see. So survivorship bias is generally when people focus on success cases over failure cases, which is exactly what I'm doing with this hair transplant guy, because he was fine. It was like, oh, that's great. If I ever need this, I'm totally going to do that. So you're essentially saying that people are going, hey, I know that this guy did this and everything was fine. Literally what I Just said, basically, hey, this guy did it and he was fine. So I'm almost certain to be fine. I'm guessing the CDC or whoever tracks this stuff, fda, they don't get a notification every time somebody flies to the Philippines to get a facelift or something.

[B]

Yeah, my old man used to drive drunk like constantly. And lo and behold, he's still walking around alive. It does not make drunk driving a good idea.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's no rigorous official tracking of this. We do have a little data. A large scale population study found that roughly 5% of medical tourists report significant complications upon returning to the U.S. of those who experience problems, 67% required medical care back in the United States. Wow. Data from the British association of Aesthetic plastic surgeons or BAPs. Yes, that's really what they're called, BAPs. They showed a 94% increase in patients needing hospital treatment after for overseas surgery over a three year period.

[A]

Okay, but complications, that's kind of vague, right? Is that not just like, hey, this is a little bit red. And it's like, oh, okay, here's some ointment and a bandage like that could be required medical care back in the United States after a surgery.

[B]

Yes, absolutely, that would be included in complications. Vagueness is doing a bit of work here and we should address that. In Colombia, for example, which is a popular destination for medical tourism, some high end clinics report a 6.2% complication rate which is actually comparable to benchmarks for US board certified clinics and physicians.

[A]

I see.

[B]

The issue is what are the complications? And that's where we need to get more specific. But there's not a ton of data.

[A]

Yeah, like one is, hey, this is a little swollen. The other one is you're going to potentially die from this if you don't go to the ER right now or whatever.

[B]

Like you're a little red here, you need some, you need a cortisone shot versus like whoa, that's necrotic tissue.

[A]

We have to amputate this.

[B]

Yeah, we have to cut that off. So in the United States you might get a staph infection. In medical tourism we see non tuberculosis mycobacteria, also known as ntm. I love that. Whenever I have to pronounce something difficult, I put on my radio news reporter voice.

[A]

Yeah. Otherwise nobody will understand what the hell you said. So we do appreciate that.

[B]

Yeah. These are waterborne bacteria found in tap water used to clean instruments at lower end clinics.

[A]

If your recovery plan involves a beach, a cocktail and zero legal recourse, maybe balance that out with something Sensible like supporting the sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by SimpliSafe in the US there's a break in every 26 seconds and the problem with a lot of home security is it alerts you after the break in has already started. And that's too late, obviously. That's why I chose SimpliSafe for our home. With the Outdoor Camera Series 2 and advanced AI alerts, SimpliSafe's US based live agents can identify threats on your property and help deter intruders before they ever get inside. That's the kind of security I actually want. SimpliSafe has been a huge upgrade for us. I love being able to check in when we're traveling out with the kids or when I hear some random noise outside at night that's probably just a cat or weird marsupial jumping on our roof. I also like that there are no long term contracts and monitoring plans start at around a dollar a day. I want you to experience the same peace of mind that I do, which is why I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to my listeners. Right now you can get 50% off your new system by visiting SimpliSafe.com Jordan that's half [e-mail] Jordan there's no safe like SimpliSafe. This episode is also sponsored by Whatnot. Have you seen the buzz around live shopping? I did not get it at all until I checked out Whatnot. Now I understand why so many sellers are paying attention. I've watched these shows firsthand. I've seen the rankings, I've looked at the seller numbers. Small businesses, side hustlers, larger sellers are using whatnot to connect with buyers in a really different way. If you sell online or out of a storefront, you know the challenge, right? You list something, you wait around hoping people find it. Whatnot really flips that model. You go live, show what you've got in real time, answer questions, and sell directly to people who are already there to shop. And it's not just collectibles, although those are big there. Obviously. Whatnot has beauty, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies. Basically, if there's a niche, there may be an audience for it. What makes Whatnot interesting is the sellers are not just posting products. They're building relationships with buyers who come back. And buyers spend more than an hour a day in the app. So they're engaged, they're watching, they're chatting, and they're buying. Some sellers make more Some make less. But for people who show up consistently, Whatnot can be a serious way to grow. Download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search whatnot. Whatnot in the App Store and start scoring amazing deals. We've got a subreddit for the show if you want to discuss how terrible I am with other show fans. Actually, that's only 10% of the threads. Join us over on the Jordan harbor subreddit. Now back to Skeptical Sunday. Shout out to the compliance officer in the United States who does not allow people to just rinse things off in the break room sink and then put them back on the tray for the next person. Oh, my God.

[B]

Wipe it on a napkin and it's good to go. So these are, in addition to being gross, incredibly hard to treat. They require months of heavy duty antibiotics, and those can cause permanent kidney or hearing damage.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

So it's not just, like, eat a bowl full of pills for a month and you're fine?

[A]

No, it sounds like IV stuff at that point. IV antibiotics. Oh, my God, dude, I didn't realize. You know, I have heard of hearing damage and, of course, kidney damage from antibiotics, but I. Ugh, that's really gnarly. So this, again, as I mentioned, it goes back to regulations and compliance. American hospitals are insanely regulated and thus incredibly clean. There's also a massive bureaucracy just filled with people who, frankly, would probably love to ruin a hospital's day by finding violations.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The stereotype of Latin law enforcement being essentially freelance has been confirmed by absolutely everybody I know who lives there and has lived there. And I remember. And again, this is anecdotal, but I'm talking about. A lot of show fans write in about this stuff, too. But when I was in Panama and Mexico, first of all, I remember in Mexico, I had to pay the cops to let me go for something I didn't do. Surprise, surprise. And in Panama, when I worked at the US Embassy there, they would pull you over and the joke was, oh, they must be hungry. It must be lunchtime. Because they'd be like, you ran a stop sign, and you're like, there's no stop sign here. And they'd be like, I need $10 for that violation. And the running joke with everybody who lived there was just, it was lunchtime, they were hungry and they didn't have any money. And $10 was the price for a decent lunch. And I knew guys that were doing, like, serious stuff over there because I was working with the narco folks. In. At the US Embassy, if you. As you go up chain, the corruption is worse and more expensive. You know, it's not a $10 bribe. It's a trip to Vegas or whatever.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I've known multiple people who lived in some of the least corrupt countries in South America, and they confirmed that. Like, you got a problem with your passport or your visa. Well, you got 100 bucks, you don't have a problem anymore.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Obligatory. Okay, fine. It happens in America, too. But we're talking about, like, hospital compliance. Medical compliance is like. Is crazy here. It's just mostly we complain about the opposite thing. Like, wait, this thing left open and in the air in a sterile room for more than a few minutes, and now you have to throw it in the garbage and open something else? Like, that's ridiculous. And it's like, well, there's a 0.01% chance that something floated and landed on it. And we're doing heart surgery on a vulnerable person, so, like, yeah, we're going to waste $1,000 worth of shit because they might die if we don't. It's like, all right, that's probably the best practice.

[B]

Yeah, I know exactly one person who's ever bribed American cops.

[A]

That's a story for another podcast, I assume.

[B]

Yeah. So there's also the issue where people stack surgeries. We addressed this a little earlier. You fly to Thailand, you get a procedure because it's cheap, and you go, hey, let's get a bunch while we're there. Let's get everything done in one trip, and then I don't have to pay for another flight. So your tummy tuck, your breast implant, your lipo, your bbl, your veneers, your Botox, the whole deal.

[A]

Yeah, because you're like, I'm already in pain. I'm gonna already be taking codeine. I might as well just like. Like, get it all knocked out.

[B]

Yeah, well, in the United States, surgeons won't do that for the most part, because the risk of pulmonary embolism and surgical shock, it skyrockets when you start stacking these.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But abroad, it's like, oh, it's the mommy makeover package. Get six different procedures done.

[A]

Right? And to people like me who don't think deeply about this until right this moment, it totally makes sense. Like, I got all four of my wisdom teeth removed at the same time. Why wouldn't I also get my butt and my boobs and my lips and my double eyelid surgery and my whatever else implant at the same time? Because I'm already going to be on pain meds, watching Netflix and sleeping all day, like, get her done. But no, you're saying the body might kill you as a response to all of these invasive injuries, which, like, duh, of course that's going to happen. So other than thrombosis and the dangerous mycobacteria, what are some common complications for medical tourists in. And if this is gonna get really gross, maybe. Heads up, y', all, it might get really gross.

[B]

It's gonna get reasonably gross.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Infections and wound dehiscence.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

Yeah, so infections people get. Wound dehiscence is when your wounds don't close, they leak.

[A]

Oh, bro, I've never even heard that word, dehiscence, but, man, is that disgusting. So, like, just a festering open sore that just. Yes. Come on, man.

[C]

Oof.

[B]

Yeah, it's extremely gross. It's also half of all hospital visits for medical tourists after they get back home. So what type of complications? Weeping open wounds that don't close. Lastly, there's hematomas, which is a form of internal bleeding that is going to require another surgery to open it up and drain the blood.

[A]

Damn, that is all pretty serious. This is not. Hey, I have an inflamed incision around the edges. I took three days of antibiotics to clear up a potential infection or like, like, I don't know, put some ice on it or like you said, a cortisone shot. I mean, that's really gross. That's really, really gnarly. Like, you don't want a wound that leaks. I mean, that's.

[B]

There's a bit of survivor bias involved in this, because when someone flies to Bulgaria, we'll pick on the post Soviet world, since we've been picking on the third world the whole. The whole episode. And you get major plastic surgery and nothing goes wrong. We have no idea. But yes, the takeaway from this is that if you do have complications, they are going to be a big deal, if not life threatening.

[A]

Yeah, look, tmi. But, hey, what else is new? I might as well keep talking about my wang. I had a vasectomy last year. Or maybe. No, it was even more than last year, a couple years ago, and that very rare. But it got infected and I had a speaking gig and I could barely walk. Thankfully, the gig was in Hawaii. And I told the event hotel and organizer what happened, and they basically gave me, like, the craziest deal ever to stay at the hotel for a week and recover. And it was kind of awesome because I had medical care for Something that was relatively minor, but I cannot imagine having that kind of issue someplace else and having to deal with it. I mean, this was like a massive swelling in where the sun don't shine. And I went to the ER in Maui, and I'm actually still paying that off because it was like $4,000. But I was in no danger of, you know, dying from it because I had real medical care. No, it was serious. And even Kaiser Permanente was like, hey, you probably think we're lying, but this never happens. And the doctor was like, Dude, I'm 65 and I've been doing this for my whole career and I've seen like a handful of this. And I was like, well, maybe stop sneezing on the scalpel or whatever. He's just like, no, you just got like terrible luck. This is just straight up bad luck.

[B]

Buy a lottery ticket, man.

[A]

Exactly, Exactly. So, but how many people actually die from complications from surgery? Do we know?

[B]

The CDC reported 93 US citizens dying following cosmetic surgery in the Dominican Republic. Again, that's a specific to the Dominican

[A]

Republic and U.S. citizens and specific to cosmetic surgery too. So that's a lot sounding from just that narrow place with a narrow niche.

[B]

And it was just in 2009. Yeah. Deaths are increasing in the doctor. From 2009 to 2018, the average was about four deaths per year. Between 2019 and 2022, that jumped to 13 deaths per year with a peak of 17 deaths in 2020. Almost all of these were women with a mean age of 41. And the leading cause was embolisms.

[A]

Geez. I'm guessing that that trend of people dying is not that medical care quality in the doctor is going down, but that people are going there for more dangerous stuff like bbls. Probably.

[B]

Probably. Yeah.

[A]

So that's really terrible. I wish we had better stats to compare to the US because I'd love to get an apple cider to apples here.

[B]

It's very, very difficult to get apples to apples because you have to compare the exact same surgery. Because like, right. No one is dying from hair transplants. I mean, apologies to the one person out there is like, hey, my brother died from a hair transplant. But like, for the most part, people are not dying from hair transplants there, but lots of people are dying from bbls.

[A]

One thing I do know is that you are not supposed to die at age 41 if you're a healthy woman from elective cosmetic surgery. That's terrible.

[B]

Yes. Mexico is the number one destination for Americans with over 1 million visitors annually. You absolutely can find high quality medical facilities in Mexico, but the basement tier clinics can be lethal. In 2023, an outbreak of fungal meningitis linked to cosmetic surgery clinics in Matamoros, Mexico, killed at least a dozen Americans and left dozens more with permanent neurological damage, which I think from, if I'm not mistaken, is probably pretty bad.

[A]

I'm going to guess permanent neurological damage is not just like, yeah, I can't feel my fingertip anymore. It's probably like, oh, I can't walk properly anymore because I have had fungal meningitis.

[B]

Yeah. Or I have, like, symptoms that are functionally identical to Ms. Or something.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Health authorities in Mexico report that the mortality rate in their medical tourism sector is roughly 4 to 5 deaths per 100,000 procedures. That doesn't sound like much, but it's significantly higher than international benchmarks for elective cosmetic surgery. The best data we have for the US Puts it at one to two deaths per hundred thousand for elective cosmetic surgeries. So it's like five times as much. Tijuana, big hotspot for medical tourism. That's 20% of all surgical fatalities in Mexico. Oh, wow. And that's primarily cosmetic procedures like tummy tucks. They have a fatality rate of 5 and 100,000. Which again, doesn't sound like much, depending on where you are, where you're going. Couple factors. That could be 10 times the rate it is in the United States.

[A]

Ugh, dang.

[B]

So, again, doesn't sound like much when you put it that way, but when I say, hey, do you want to have 10 times the risk of dying? People are like, no, of course not.

[A]

No, thank you.

[B]

No other thing to remember is that people may be traveling to places that aren't super safe for reasons other than medical procedures. In 2023, four Americans were kidnapped and two of them were killed while they were traveling to Matamoros for a tummy tuck. This is a very real concern. One of my best friends was kidnapped in Mexico.

[A]

Well, I mean, I was kidnapped in Mexico 26 years ago.

[B]

You're who I'm tell. Talking about. And also, like, okay, my cousin was murdered in Mexico, but he was.

[A]

Oh, dang, I did not know that.

[B]

He was doing sketchy shit. So.

[A]

Okay, well, okay, that's like saying my. My friend was killed in la. Yeah, he was a crip. Well, okay, not that that makes it okay, but it does increase the likelihood that you're, you know, if you're buying a brick of cocaine, it can. You're. It's not the same as somebody who's going to the Four Seasons to drink beers at a bar? What about other places?

[B]

Well, we mentioned Turkey as a hotspot. The British Foreign Office issued a warning after 28 British nationals died in Turkey following medical procedures since 2019. In 2023, dozens of medical tourists contracted botulism poisoning. No. Which is a potentially fatal nerve toxin.

[A]

Yeah. How do you get that stomach?

[B]

Botox.

[A]

Oh, duh. Of course.

[B]

Yeah. It's botulism injections.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They went to a weight loss clinic in Istanbul and Izmir. The thing is, again, this is just the tip of the iceberg because there's not much in the way of official records. There's no real rigorous record keeping. We only find out when there's a problem that that requires that scares somebody enough to go to the hospital.

[A]

I see. Okay.

[B]

There's a couple things to note as regard fatalities. Most official stats only count deaths that occur within the country that they're going for medical tourism or shortly thereafter. So if you die of a secondary infection six weeks later in a Chicago icu, that is probably not going to be counted as a medical tourism death stat.

[A]

Sure, yeah, if you have like a blood infection. But yeah, you got it because you got staph from them washing the scalpel in the break room during your. Whatever. BBL. Right, exactly. Yeesh. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. BBLs are the deadliest cosmetic procedure in human history according to the the Aesthetic Surgery Education and Research foundation, which was a group of surgeons founded specifically out of concerns regarding bbls. There's a huge risk of fat embolism. That's where fat. They accidentally inject fat into a vein and it travels through your heart.

[A]

Oh, gosh dang, dude. I've heard that these are super dangerous if you don't really know what you're doing. And they're still dangerous even if you do. In fact, I mentioned this at the top of the show. The guy who originated the phrase that we use on the show all the time. I am addicted to lip filler. Let me find. It's one of our sound bite that we use on the recommendation of the week.

[B]

I am addicted to lip filler.

[A]

That guy. So he worked in the UK and he gave this mother of five a BBL using filler. I don't totally get how it works. And he's not a doctor. She died. And so he got arrested and he posted bail and he was supposed to. In the UK they call it answer bail, which I guess is just go to trial after you've to court and. And before he could he got a BBL with the filler and he died getting that, which is crazy. Like the. I hate to say karma. Cause that makes me sound like I'm saying he deserved it or something. But basically it just came full circle and he passed away. And it was like days after I licensed that. Cause I had written him. And I was like, hey, can I license this? He's like, yes. I was like, here's the document. And he's like, great. And I was like, send me the recording. He sends me the recording. And I was like, hey, could you do this, like, edit on this thing? And there was no answer. And I was like, like, ah, this guy. Come on, man, you're just going to take my money and run? It's just a really simple edit. And then never heard from him. And then somebody posted on our subreddit and they're like, oh, that guy died. And I was like, oh, okay. I guess I won't expect a response to this poor guy. Just to have two people die from bbls associated with the same person. The odds just can't be good. And again, he's not a doctor, but he didn't do it illegally. I guess you just don't need to be a doctor to do this, which is crazy to me.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, surgery in general under the best of circumstances can be very, very dangerous. But yeah, yeah. It's especially true of bbls, though new techniques have made them much safer. The death rate is now one in 15,000 for newer procedures, which, like, people are like, whoa, after hearing one in a hundred thousand.

[A]

Right. It's still super dangerous. Holy smokes.

[B]

But it used to be 1 in 3,000.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Their real time ultrasound guidance has nearly eliminated the risk of death by fat embolism.

[A]

But like, somebody's got to do that. That and it's probably not the guy who works at a salon and isn't a doctor. I feel like influencer culture has to play a huge role in this. Somebody on Instagram has the work done abroad, they go online, they say it went fine, don't worry about it. Then they take a couple pics of their bougie recovery suite and it's like, you know, sign up through my link, right?

[B]

The testimonials by influencers either conceal or distort the danger. Again, the survivor bias. Lack of hard statistics makes it very hard for people to properly assess the risk. And when people find out that the $10,000 surgery they wanted forever is $2,000 plus a $1,000 round trip ticket abroad, maybe they're going to do due diligence, but maybe they're so excited to get down to business that they get caught up in the moment. They forget that serious illness, disfigurement, even death are very real possibilities.

[A]

If your surgeon sells vape cartridges out of the front office, we need to talk. But first first let's talk about the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire that can help you grow your business. This gives me flashbacks to a nightmare hire in my previous company that really stunted the business, and even talking about it now makes my blood pressure go up. But the right hire is the exact opposite. Somebody who takes ownership, solves problems and helps the business grow faster. And when you're small, that kind of impact is massive. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes to find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you. So instead of sorting through applications, you spend your time talking to candidates who are actually a good fit. With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, Those hiring with LinkedIn are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire get started by posting your job for [e-mail] harbinger terms and conditions apply.

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[A]

Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. It is your support of our sponsors that keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are on the website, searchable and Clickable over at jordanharbinger.com Deals now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. We aren't talking about a one in a million freak accident. We're talking about a measurable rising body count of people who thought they were buying a lifestyle upgrade and ended up in a morgue because a broker sold them on a clinic that didn't have proper emergency care on site in many cases. One thing I'm dying to talk about is what role we mentioned this in the intro, but what role organ harvesting plays in medical tourism? Because like, I might not be as cynical as you, but I'm definitely cynical enough to think that people are for sure flying to Asia to get kidneys that were harvested from Chinese dissidents and Falun Gong members or something like that. I've actually done multiple shows on this in the past, so I know that that's like there's a UN report. This is a real thing. This is not like a weird TikTok conspiracy.

[B]

Yeah, this isn't like you got drunk and went home with some girl and woke up in a bathtub full of ice and a note saying my kidneys are gone. This is a very real thing. What's the common denominator of all medical tourism? You want to save money or time? You want a cheaper procedure or a shorter wait or both? If people are willing to do this for a nose job or whiter teeth, they're definitely going to want to cut the line or cheap out when it comes to a life saving organ transplant.

[A]

Yeah, let's talk about kidneys. I mean, you already started of stole my thunder with the guy meets a girl at a bar and wakes up in a tub full of ice. But like, what's the real version of this? Is there one?

[B]

It's honestly and very sadly not as different from that as you might think. In America, the average wait time for a kidney is somewhere between three and five years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

There are Chinese websites in English, Russian and Japanese, not Mandarin mind you, that promised people new kidneys in one to four weeks.

[A]

Holy moly. Wait. So from three to five years down to you'll wait a month if we really take our time to find a donor.

[B]

Yes. And there are definitely regulations that make it harder to get organ transplants in the United States.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But the main driver of the Wait list is not that the people at the Health Resources and Services Administration who regulate organ transplants, plants, you know, they're not just like being big socialist meanies who want to deny people life saving treatment. This is a very basic problem of supply and demand. There are tons of people who need kidneys in proportion to the people who are dying and gifting a usable kidney to the next generation.

[A]

Okay, but what about the idea, and I know I'm playing devil's advocate because I've done shows on this, but what about the idea that there are way more people, way more people in China, so maybe they have more dead people's kidneys to give away and more death row inmates because they have more capital crimes or whatever it is.

[B]

So here's the thing. Biologically, you cannot schedule a deceased donor transplant weeks in advance unless you know exactly when the donor's gonna die.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this is what first tipped off international investigators that something was amiss in the People's Republic of China.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I can see how that might raise red flags. Is there any positive evidence that organs are being harvested in China for the purposes of selling the them on the international market?

[B]

Well, as you know, the China Tribunal, which was an independent people's tribunal who released their findings in 2020, concluded that forced organ harvesting had been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale.

[A]

Yes, and I can stop playing dumb now, but you can hear more about this on episode 497 with David Kilgore, who did. He was a part of that whole UN China tribunal.

[B]

Yeah. So China officially claims about 10,000 to 17,000 transplants per year through their voluntary system. However, researchers using bed counts, staffing revenue data estimate the actual number is closer to 60 to 100,000. The evidence points to Falun Gong practitioners and Uyghur Muslims being used as living organ banks. Survivors from reeducation camps have testified about receiving frequent medical exams and blood tests that were focused solely on organ health rather than general wellness.

[A]

Yeah. By the way, Falun Gong is like a meditation. If I say cult, people flip out, but it's sort of kind of like that. But I guess as far as cults go, it's like kind of harmless. Ish. Imagine that Buddhism has an offshoot and this offshoot decided that they hate the ccp, the Communist Party of China. And so they're getting persecuted and like they just arrest these people. And also apparently their organs are really good because they're vegetarian and they live a healthy lifestyle full of like semi abstinence and meditation and Exercise. So you're getting. This is so gross. But you're getting like a high quality kidney or a high quality liver from the person that gets arrested and murdered for their corneas or whatever it is. And yeah, I mean, if people are coming back from camps and the numbers don't match and they're getting organ help health tests rather than general wellness tests, I mean, it just kind of seems like a pretty big tell. And I'm not alone in thinking that because there's a whole UN tribunal, the whole China tribunal kind of came to the same conclusion here.

[B]

It starts getting really yucky when you introduce medical tourism into the mix. In transplant tourism, it really seems like the state views a detainee which again, it should be highlighted here. Like what gets you thrown in a prison or given a death sentence?

[A]

In.

[B]

In China, sometimes it's a real crime, other times it's not a crime at all.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's not a crime in the rest of the world. Right. To say like this Xi Jinping guy is a psychopath who's locking us up as part of COVID and this government needs to go like that will get you a death sentence potentially. In China, yes.

[B]

And it seems like they just view them as like spare parts that they can sell to wealthy tourists. And the people engaged in transplant tourism have at best decided not to ask too many questions about where these organs are coming from.

[A]

I mean, I kind of get it, you know, like, I'm not saying I would do it, although, I don't know. That's a hard thing. Look, you're gonna die unless you just don't ask a bunch of questions about where this came from. It's probably not that hard to just ignore your gut when you are literally going to die otherwise.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that we can be like, fair in acknowledging the pressure that these people are under, but that does not absolve them of the ethical implications of what they're doing. You know, both things can be true.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So several countries and some US insurance providers are beginning to refuse coverage for any post operative care related to transplants performed in what they deem high risk countries. To deincentivize the practice. The American Stop Forced Organ Harvesting act moved to sanction individuals and even entire medical systems involved in this trade.

[A]

Man. Sounds like something out of a horror movie, dude.

[B]

Yeah, it sounds like an Eli Roth movie because it's absolutely grotesque. So, you know, like we said, if you're dying, you're unable to lead a normal life. Yes. People are going to do Whatever they have to do to extend their life or get their life back to normal does not wash their hands of what they're doing, which is coming to buy a living person's organ a month before the Chinese government executes them for having the wrong religion.

[A]

Why is there no international enforcement against organ harvesting? Or is there?

[B]

Well, international law is a gentleman's agreement. Where's the carrot in the stick for international law?

[A]

That's true. What about the sanctions you mentioned? I mean, we're not going to sanction China because they're selling a few thousand organs per year, probably.

[B]

No, because it's a rich mine of slave labor for cheap consumer electronics in the west. And China can absolutely skirt basic human decency on a lot of fronts because the rest of the world's decided that they would rather deal with them for $800 iPhones than do anything about it.

[A]

Yeah, that's not gonna change whether it's

[B]

organ harvesting or human rights violations. No, it's not going to change. You know, it's just the thing that we talked about earlier. On a larger scale, people who want a kidney decide not to ask too many questions. The world outside of China has likewise decided not to ask too many questions and to ignore what they do know. With that said, Mr. I Hate Laws. I think it's completely appropriate to have laws and private business practices that punish people for getting organ transplants in high risk countries.

[A]

Yeah, man, this is so tough because I'm trying to think like, would I do it? What if it was my kid, would I do it? And I'm like, oh man, this is like, it's really tough. It's really tough to make that decision. So, okay, say you've decided you want to go abroad for a procedure. Where would you begin? Risk management.

[B]

I think risk management is a really important takeaway here because lots of people are going to just say, I don't care. I'm comfortable with the risk. That's their right to do. But it's important that they be armed with the right tools to make an informed decision.

[A]

So the place to start. What is the CDC website? I suppose that has medical tourism alerts on it. I mean, I know it does because I just checked it out.

[B]

Out.

[A]

All countries are definitely not equal in this regard. So it seems important to choose countries that don't have a frighteningly high rate of complications to the point where the CDC is actually getting involved in telling you not to go there.

[B]

Yeah, the plastic surgeon associations like the American Society of Plastic Surgeons and the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic surgery can have information. You can also dig around for malpractice information. But be forewarned, the lack of regulation means a lack of litigation, which means a lack of information. There not being any available evidence for malpractice does not automatically make a surgeon safe. It's just the bare minimum.

[A]

I see. What are some red flags for people to look out FOR?

[B]

In the U.S. board certified plastic surgeons generally don't offer bogo discounts or, you know, any kind of deep discount. Surgery is a medical procedure. It's not a Black Friday door buster. So if you see that kind of language, at the very least you should be extremely skeptical. This is the type of thing where like extremely skilled plastic surgeons do not need to go out with a guy wearing a sandwich board to get customers. They got more than they can.

[A]

What are those?

[B]

Yeah, they got more than they can deal with.

[A]

Tossing the sign around outside and dancing with the headphones in. One of those guys on the corner.

[B]

Yeah, they don't need that. That. We talked a lot about infections and complications. Some good questions. One very good question to ask is if I have a complication, which hospital do you have admitting privileges at? If they say they handle everything in house, that is a giant screaming red flag. You want a surgeon who can get you into a fully equipped accredited hospital if things go south.

[A]

Yeah, you would think so. So if a broker says you can fly home five days after a major procedure like a tummy tuck or a bbl, well, it sounds like they're prioritizing their bed turnover over your life and recovery. And a safe recovery usually requires at least, at least, at least, at least two to four weeks on the ground before a long haul flight to mitigate thrombosis risks. And sometimes it's longer than that.

[B]

You should check for international accreditations like jci, which is Joint Commission International. We mentioned the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgery. If you can't verify their license on an official government registry, they do not exist.

[A]

We live in a world where we're told we can hack almost anything. We can hack our productivity and our sleep and our investments. It's incredibly tempting to believe we can hack the high cost of American health care by simply getting on a plane.

[B]

Yeah, and you might be hacking your wiener off if you do.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I would be very, very careful.

[A]

Speaking of life hacks, how about chopping off that extremity? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The global medical market is not a loophole. It is a trade off. And you make decide. That's fine. That's your decision to make. But when you see a price tag that's 70% lower than the domestic average, you are not just saving money on some nebulous overhead, you're paying for the removal of the safety net that exists. It's a double edged sword. The regulations are very, very burdensome in some ways, but they also mean that fewer people die. And you are also trading away your right to legal recourse and your surgeon's accountability for follow up care and possibly even access to emergency services in the event that something horrible happens on the operating table. I do not want to have a cardiac arrest on an operating table in Bolivia.

[A]

No, I don't want to have one anywhere. But if I have one somewhere, I hope it's in next to the. Whatever. Was it the Cleveland Clinic or the Mayo Clinic?

[B]

Dude, I don't want to have one at the hospital down the street from me.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah. I want only the best guys on the job. All right. As we explored with the grim reality of transplant tourism, there's an extremely ugly side to medical tourism in general. Whether it's a bargain BBL in a strip mall clinic or a scheduled kidney in a black box hospital system, the results are the same. The patient becomes a customer and the body becomes a commodity. Thanks to Nick Pell for helping us lift the bust and the buttocks of our medical knowledge. And thanks to you for listening topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to me jordanordanharbinger.com advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, [e-mail] deals I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram, where you can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Also, we of course we try to get these as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it's fact checked. So consult a qualified professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. You probably don't picture drug cartel operations running through rural America, but that's exactly why they're so hard to stop. Mariana Van Zeller breaks down how these networks hide in plain sight using everyday systems in small town blind spots to stay one step ahead.

[C]

I've been covering the cartel for many years now and I sort of wanted to do a story about cartel presence in the U.S. and once we started researching it, I realized that actually the story to you about all the things that we don't know about crunktail presence in the U.S. including the fact that they're in small town America. So one of our first shoots for that episode was in Georgia. And we started with the murder investigation of this woman who was tortured and they cut off her fingers and then eventually killed her and she was killed by the cartel and it was in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. And then we followed, follow the investigation and realize that they're everywhere and particularly like to operate in small town America. Less law enforcement, easier to hide the drugs and have their distribution networks. You know what was so interesting about this story is that in order to get access to the cartel in the US we actually had to go down to Mexico and gain permission and have them say yes, because a lot of these groups have people that work for them in the US Obviously the US Is the end goals where they, they were sending their drugs. And so eventually he said, okay, we've got you. And it was all set up and we were supposed to meet them in Minnesota. We get there and then we waited and waited and waited for days and the guy never showed up. I want people to see many of these traffickers again. We do not condone what they do. It's difficult to even empathize. But the majority of the people that I talk to are people just like you and me that don't have the opportunities or the luck that we have. I try to walk, always do my job as a journalist, which is hold people accountable.

[A]

If you want to hear how cartels hide in plain sight, Check out episode 1302 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

[D]

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Did you know?

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