1354: Arthur Brand | Recovering the World's Stolen Masterpieces

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan Harbinger Show – Episode 1354

Guest: Arthur Brand | Recovering the World's Stolen Masterpieces

Date: July 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the shadowy, thrilling, and occasionally absurd world of international art crime with Arthur Brand, known as the "Indiana Jones of the art world." Arthur has helped recover over 200 stolen and missing works of art, including masterpieces by Picasso and Van Gogh, World War II loot, and priceless religious relics. Together with Jordan Harbinger, he unpacks how art crime actually works, why masterpieces get stolen and almost never resurface, the tangled web of organized crime, corrupt officials, and clueless collectors involved, and which iconic art stories are too wild even for Hollywood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Art Detective’s World: Rare but Real

• Role of an Art Detective ([03:18]):

  • Art detectives like Brand are rare—he may be the only true civilian dedicated to recovering stolen art.
  • Most 'art detectives' are ex-police working for insurance, lawyers responding to cases, or provenance researchers.

• European Convenience ([04:05]):

  • Arthur doesn’t even have a driver’s license—bikes and public transport serve his crime-solving needs in Amsterdam.

Art Crime: Not Just for "Rich Weirdos"

• Eye-opening Scale of Art Crime ([05:25]):

  • Contrary to the image of art theft as rare, the illegal art trade is worth an estimated €8 billion a year.
  • "The regular art market is like 70, 80 billion. Art crime is a big thing... not that difficult to fake something. You attract a certain kind of people, and that's who we are fighting." (Brand, [05:25])

• Top Criminal Money Flows ([07:46]):

  • Art crime ranks among the top global criminal moneymakers, alongside drugs and arms.
  • Organized crime, terrorist groups, and even some state actors (e.g., Iran) are deeply involved.

How Art Crime Happens: From Ground to Black Market

• Looted Antiquities and Corrupt States ([09:05]):
  • Stories from the Middle East highlight how ordinary people are trapped between poverty and violent, corrupt systems when ancient treasures are found.
  • Example: In Syria, even reporting a find can lead to brutality and the artifact still ends up on the black market.

Real-World Recoveries: Stories from the Field

The Diwan of Hafiza and Iranian Espionage ([13:34])

• Brand recovered an ancient Persian relic—a legendary poet’s book—stolen from a German-Iranian. When the Iranian regime learned Brand had it, they dispatched a covert team to retrieve it:
  • "The Iranians found this book so important that they just wanted to kidnap it. So they sent a team over." (Brand, [15:26])
  • Dutch and German secret services intervened, and the exchange had to be carefully managed for safety.

Nazi-Looted Art and World War II Ties ([28:12])

• The largest art theft in history occurred during WWII, and hundreds of thousands of items remain lost or hidden.
• Recent recovery: Two WWII-lost paintings from the Dutch-Jewish Gaudsticker collection returned after a family was 'shamed' via the press.
  • "They had 80 years to do the right thing, and they didn’t." (Brand, [31:57])
• Many looted items are found in unexpected places—descendants of Nazi collaborators, émigré estates in Argentina, etc.

Flea Markets, Family Heirlooms, and Guilt ([18:46]–[28:12])

• Both Jordan and Arthur describe firsthand encounters with WWII relics in odd places, noting the moral weight and haunting nature of such finds.
• Brand encourages returning documents/artifacts if at all possible, using tools like social media for crowd-sourcing.

Criminal Players: Mafias, Dr. No, and the Real Power Structure

• The art underworld is run by a handful of high-level operators—the “Dr. Nos”—who are often “black sheep” from reputable families ([41:13]).

• The myth of wealthy criminals commissioning heists, à la James Bond, mostly comes from pop culture. In truth, art's liquidity problem means most stolen works move endlessly among criminals, become collateral in drug deals, or are ransomed back, not hung in secret lairs.

• Memorable Quote ([41:13]):

  • "Whenever the Dr. No shows up [to buy from thieves], it's always a policeman in disguise." – Arthur Brand

The Business of Art Forgery & Museum Scandals

• 30% of art in circulation—possibly more in some museums—is estimated to be fake ([53:25]).
  • "If you buy something at Sotheby’s, it’s far lower... but generally said, 30% of all the artworks in the world are fake." (Brand, [53:25])
• Case of the “18th Olmec Head”: Experts authenticated a modern stone carving as ancient, until photographs surfaced showing it being made in modern times.

Why and How Art Gets Returned

• Art becomes "hot"—impossible to sell—and a liability for thieves, often ending up in the hands of people who don’t know what to do with it ([57:57]).

• Returns are often negotiated; less out of goodwill and more to reduce sentences, collect rewards, or because an ex-wife or jealous rival tips off authorities [[61:04]].

  • Quote: "I had this German woman...she sent me a picture of a stolen painting hanging on a wall. And I said, how are you so sure? And she said, because it’s the home of my ex-husband." (Brand, [61:04])

Iconic Recoveries & Absurd Criminal Behavior

• Tinder Confessions & Picasso ([63:31]):

  • One Picasso was recovered thanks to a Tinder hookup; the thief drunkenly boasted about his heist to a date, who reported him.
  • "We are doing our thing, you know, in bed, and he starts telling me about a Picasso he stole."

• The IKEA Bag Van Gogh ([77:04]):

  • A priceless Van Gogh was returned in an IKEA bag—bloodstained and wrapped in a pillow—from a rival criminal, using a spat over a woman as leverage.

  • Brand on Instagram backlash: "The first hundred [comments] were, why is that idiot not wearing white gloves?" ([79:40])

  • Museum now displays the IKEA bag as part of history.

Risks, Rewards, and Challenges in Art Recovery

• Statutes of limitation often prevent legal recovery of WWII art; many museums are reluctant (or refuse) to return looted works, sometimes shaming or stonewalling survivors ([55:25]–[57:38]).

• Art squads in most countries consist of only a handful of officers ([67:46]).

  • "In Belgium, we had one. In the Netherlands, we have three to four. In England, they have three or four."

• Civilians like Brand can be more effective than police—no bureaucracy, just a bicycle and a knack for meaningful negotiation ([68:21]).

Museum Vulnerability & Recent High-Profile Heists

• Despite their importance, museums are often more vulnerable than jewelry stores; thieves copycat successful heists like the recent Louvre jewelry robbery ([85:29]).
• Sometimes, Italian police even swap paintings with fakes in anticipation of theft but fail to catch the culprits ([93:29]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Art’s True Nature:
  “The bottom line in the art world is money. They want you and me to believe it’s about beauty, but it’s not. It’s only about greed.”
  — Arthur Brand ([08:21])

• On Discovering Fakes:
  “Either the Olmecs had cameras or this was a modern forgery.”
  — Arthur Brand on the “18th Olmec Head” ([51:49])

• On Motivations to Return Art:
  “The more divorces, the more stolen art we will get back.”
  — Arthur Brand ([61:23])

• On Police and Museums:
  “It’s too easy to blame museums. They should be open for the public—not turn them into a Fort Knox.”
  — Arthur Brand ([88:59])

• On the Mona Lisa’s Fame:
  “It wasn’t a famous painting before 1911—until it got stolen. That’s one of the reasons why it’s the most famous painting in the world.”
  — Arthur Brand ([95:47])

• On Art Thieves’ Mindset:
  “When Okie is asked, ‘Why did you steal these two Van Goghs?’… His simple answer was: Because I could.”
  — Arthur Brand ([85:29])

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Timestamps of Significant Segments

• Art Crime as a Major Underworld Industry: [05:25]–[08:42]
• Middle Eastern Art Looting Stories: [09:05]–[12:19]
• The Diwan of Hafiza / Iranian Secret Service Threat: [13:34]–[16:22]
• Returning Stolen WWII Art / Nazi Collaboration Fallout: [28:12]–[34:40]
• Art Forgery Cases and Museum Fakes: [49:57]–[54:20]
• Motivations for Returning Art / Best Informants: [57:57]–[61:30]
• Picasso Tinder Confession: [63:31]–[64:50]
• IKEA Bag Van Gogh Recovery: [77:04]–[80:13]
• Louvre Jewel Heist and Museum Security Flaws: [85:29]–[90:42]

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Additional Insights

• Art recovery work is “thrilling but filled with moral and physical danger”—from evading hostile state actors to negotiating with gangsters.
• The episode blurs the line between true crime, historical drama, and international intrigue, displaying Brand’s humor and matter-of-fact courage.

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Conclusion

This episode is a fast-paced tour through the underbelly of the art world, highlighting art crime's money-driven reality, the persistence of WWII trauma, and the bizarre, all-too-human stories behind legendary recoveries. If you think art heists are just a movie trope, Brand’s stories prove they’re real—and often stranger than fiction.

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For further reading and listening:

• Arthur Brand’s website and television series
• Robert Whitman’s undercover stories (former FBI art squad)
• Previous Jordan Harbinger Show episodes on crime and espionage

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“It shouldn’t be, you know—it’s still crime. But when something is stolen and it’s being returned, it’s a good story.” — Arthur Brand ([95:25])

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Episode Starter Packs & Further Episodes

• For listeners new and old: collections on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, and more.

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Share this summary with art lovers, true crime buffs, or anyone curious about the hidden dramas of the world's masterpieces.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers. Even the occasional organized crime figure, gold smuggler, hacker or real life pirate. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I I suggest our episode Starter packs. These are collections of some of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today we're talking with Arthur Brand, the Indiana Jones of the art world. Which sounds like a fake job until you realize he's recovered stolen Picassos, van Goghs, Nazi looted treasures and ancient religious relics, and apparently whatever else Europe keeps misplacing in attics, basements, and even IKEA bags. Art crime sounds niche, like something for rich weirdos with linen pants and suspiciously quiet tax attorneys. But it's a multi billion dollar underworld involving mafias, terrorists, smugglers, forgers, war criminals, and thieves who are somehow smart enough to steal a Picasso, but then dumb enough to brag about it on Tinder. Today we're getting into stolen Jewish family art, Nazi loot, forged masterpieces, priceless relics sitting on kitchen couc encounters, why criminals steal museum pieces that they then can't sell. And how Arthur negotiates with people who have extremely expensive things that they absolutely should not have. This one's a bit of a ride. Here we go with Arthur Brand. So you're an art detective. I feel like there's not that many of those around, are there?

[C]

No, there are some ex police officers who worked in the police squad and now working for insurance companies. There are some art lawyers, but they are not really searching. When they find something, they are being called. And then you have some provenance researchers, they study the history of an object to see if something is wrong with that history.

[A]

I see.

[C]

Which might indicate that something has been stolen. But sometimes I think I'm the only civilian who's really trying to go out there and try to recover stolen art.

[A]

You've so many interesting stories. You've gotten art stolen by Nazis, jewel heists, museum heists, and people call you the Indiana Jones of the art world, which is kind of fun. You're missing the hat. And I guess you're not a professor, so it's not exactly totally accurate, but whatever.

[C]

I miss a lot more, don't worry. Yeah, to be Indiana Jones. I don't even have a driver's license.

[A]

That's funny. You don't need a driver's license. I guess you live in the Netherlands, so you just take transit everywhere.

[C]

Well, I live in Amsterdam and you know these big cities, a car is horrible. So like most Dutch men, I drive a bicycle.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't even think about that.

[C]

I drive around.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. The fact that you don't have a license though, that's crazy. Somehow I guess you don't need it. Unbelievable.

[C]

Yeah, it's a very small country and we have very good public transport and that's fine.

[A]

Yeah, I can't relate. I live in the United States. So you've recovered something like 200 or over 200 stolen or missing works of art. I'm curious how these investigations work, and I've got a bunch of questions about how this all goes. The recent, well, recent ish Louvre incident from last year. That's something I want to discuss later for sure. But when I started originally researching this, I thought, okay, art crime, this is going to be really small. There's a reason there's not many art detectives. Probably almost nobody is stealing art. It's only something you see in movies. But actually, I was reading a bunch of the articles that you've written and things you've written on your website and shows you've been on. Art crime is worth about 8 billion euros, that's what you said. And that's an order of magnitude larger than I thought.

[C]

The regular art market is like 70, 80 billion. And part of that is illegal art theft from museums, from private individuals, forgeries, illicit antiquities. In many countries, people dig in the ground, you know, or with a metal detector. So it's quite a big thing. And it's not that much surprising because there are a lot of art collectors in the world. Almost everybody has a painting or a little statue at his home. So it's a big market. And when there's a big market and a lot of money, and it's not a real science, so it's not that difficult to fake something. You attract a certain kind of people, and that's who we are fighting.

[A]

I suppose that's true. There's so much gray area. So there's art heists, Illegal. Right. Thieves stealing art. And there's people who buy things from auctions that I suppose maybe have been authenticated and have been for sale before and were bought from one person to another with certificates or however it goes. But I remember interviewing a guy on the show a few years ago, and he had sort of a bug up, as, you know, what about searching for this lost city in, I want to say, Ecuador or El Salvador or something, and he found it. He found it using lidar from an airplane. And then they hiked through this really dangerous, really thick jungle where there's all these dangerous snakes and things like that. And he found all these relics and artifacts, and they were basically just being stolen at a crazy high rate because I think the country that was hosting it was like, look, we can't keep a battalion of soldiers here in the middle of nowhere. It's expensive and there's nobody Around. So there was one or two guys, and they could steal at will, their friends could steal at will, and other people could steal when they were turned facing east. The guys would come in from the west and steal things right out of the ground. But even this guy who had found the city, he's an older guy, he had all this crazy stuff in his house. I was like, oh, what is this statue of this lion on the ground? And he'd go, oh, yeah, I brought that back from Ecuador. And I'm thinking, can you do that? Can you just pick something out of the ground and fly home with it? That doesn't seem like you should do that.

[C]

No, you can't. And every time when an archaeologist dies, her or his collection comes at auction and I always take an extra look because suddenly as an archaeologist, if you die and you have a collection of 2,000 pieces, where does it come from? And surprisingly, all these objects match with the places you have been digging.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Of course, not every archeologist is dead, but have some surprises now.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. If you have a, I don't know, a sarcophagus from a pharaoh in your garage, you probably didn't pick it up at a garage sale or a flea market. Yeah. And the 8 billion euro figure is not just something that you made up, by the way. I think you based that figure on info from the CIA, which calculated, and this surprised me, that art is the third largest criminal money flow in the world. So first of all, what are the other two? Drugs and guns or drugs and people or something?

[C]

I think something like that. And some people dispute it, that it's not the third or fourth, but who cares, you know, it's 8 billion, it's 1 of the biggest in the world. And the mafia bosses states, even states, everybody is involved. It's about money. You know, the bottom line in the art world is money. They want you and me to believe it's about beauty, but it's not. It's only about greed.

[A]

You mentioned in one of the articles, I should say it's the Italian mafia, which I'm always surprised still exists, but I guess, of course it does. The ira, which I thought the Irish Republican Army, I thought that was done in the 80s or the 90s, but apparently not. You got the Taliban, you have ISIS, you have states like Iran, which I guess just loot their own antiquities, basically. I don't know how that works.

[C]

I can give you an example. There was this guy in Syria and he found 12 golden Roman coins, 2,000 years old. So he Found them. And he thought if I tried to sell it like other people do, they might catch me and punish me, you know, you don't want to be punished in Syria. So what did he do? He went to the police. So the police said, what do you have? He said, I have 12 golden Roman coins I found while working on my lands. And they beat the shit out of him because they thought that he came there because they would hear something. And they suspected that he probably had found 40 or 50 and only turned 12 in. So they beat the shit out of him. And later he found out that these two 12 pieces made it to the black market. In many countries, if you find something, people try to sell it on the black market. If you go to the police station, one thing for sure, it might be resold by then. There are a lot of examples of this. And these soy in the Middle east, they are so rich of this stuff. If you dig there, you find something. And if you are poor and you find a golden helmet, what you gonna do? Yeah, you want to be beaten up by the police or you find someone to sell it to.

[A]

That's true. Yeah. I suppose. If you live in the mountains of Iran and, I don't know, you take shelter in a cave when you're herding your sheep, and then one day you, I don't know, find something in the cave, you go to the local police, they, like you said, beat you up, or they steal it from you and sell it, or you just, I don't know, try and sell it yourself or keep it in your house as an heirloom until you figure out what to do with it.

[C]

They hang you. In Iran, it has happened. People took shelter in a cave, I don't know, for the weather, for the heat, and they found one of the biggest treasures ever, and the police got on a trail and hung them.

[A]

Is this in Iran?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. The amount of injustice that happens over there is just shocking.

[C]

And the worst is that in many of these countries, you are being punished. But the same people who punish you, they take it from you and put it on the black market. There are so many examples of this. It's so corrupt.

[A]

It's so disappointing. I mean, Syria, of course, is a crazy failed state. I had a friend, actually, this is quite related to what you're talking about here on the show. I had a friend who went to Syria, I want to say, maybe 10 years ago. So during the civil war. He just went there because he's crazy. And he told me that one of the things he was doing, was going around, he had local friends and they would say, like, oh, I have this backgammon set that is hundreds of years old, centuries old backgammon game set or this other kind of game. And would you buy this? Because I have to escape and I've got to walk to, I don't know, Turkey. And I can't bring this thing with me because I'm bringing my kids, I'm bringing a blanket, I'm bringing a thing of water. So he would give them money for their journey and he would bring this thing back and he would take their name and say, like, if your family wants this back in 20 years, call me. And he lives in New Zealand, so he basically has a museum in his house in New Zealand of just stuff from Syria. Little statues, games, carvings, wall hangings, rugs that are family heirlooms from all these people that he met that he basically traded for cash and a little card with his phone number on it. And he says, have your grandkids call me if they want this back and I'll give it to them.

[C]

That sounds like a good deal. The problem in these countries is there are terrorist groups. Now, let me give you one example. The German Secret Service revealed 15 years ago that Mohammed Atta, the guy, the leader of the guys who flew into the World Trade center, he was studying in Germany. And a year before these attacks, he went to his professor and said, we have a bunch of Buddha statues from Afghanistan. We would like to sell them at Sotheby's Crisis. What should I do? And the professor said, what do I know? You cannot just sell stuff like that. It might be looted. And he even said, according to the German Secret Service, we want to buy a plane. And at that time, nobody would imagine that these planes would be used for this horrible event. But it turns out that apparently even Osama bin Laden tried to gain money from looting. So that shows you who the players are in this field. It's scary.

[A]

It is scary. The people involved in this are unsavory characters. Exactly. To give people an idea of what you do and how you do it, tell me about this stolen Persian relic. This is called the Diwan of Hafiza.

[C]

Oh, that was a great story. We were filming that live for television. I had at the time my own television series in the Netherlands. It was stolen in 2007 from an Iranian German. Bert Hafiz is one of the most famous poets in Iran from the 15th century or a little bit before. And this was one of the first books, one of the first Prints. So it was a very special book, his poems. It had all this gold inside. It was stolen from this guy and of course he was trying to track it down. And I was tracking it down in London and then we were filming. I recovered it and I wanted to bring it to Germany to this guy, to hand it over to him. And then live on television, the Dutch police called me, a friend of mine, and he said, arthur, we were just called by the German secret service that the Iranians found out that you have this book and they are now sending a team to the Netherlands. What are you going to do?

[A]

So when you say team, by the way, you don't mean diplomats are going to call you, right?

[C]

I prefer to think so, but no, of course not. There was, in my street there was protection, there were some cars, but it was quite scary. We put it on television because it happened all live. So they told me, you don't travel to Germany. And the place I wanted to hand it over in Germany was a police station with the German police. But they called it off. They said, no way you're coming here. So I said, thank you so much, I'm a civilian, let somebody protect me.

[A]

The Germans said, don't come here because we can't protect you from the Iranian secret service who's going to operate in Germany and try and what, kill you and take this book?

[C]

It sounds like a crazy story, but you can call the Dutch police and ask them. They were in my series.

[A]

Yeah, this is documented in a bunch of articles on news websites. I obviously fact checked some of this before I had you on.

[C]

The Iranians found this book so important that they just wanted to kidnap it. They thought it's somewhere out there, it's this idiot, this Dutchman has it. He stands no chance against our team. So they send a team over.

[A]

Wow. Did they find the team at all? Did they have eyes on these guys or they just had no idea?

[C]

No, I returned it very soon to the man in question. They came here to Amsterdam and handed it over and I thought, good luck with it, go away.

[A]

So is that guy okay? Because he flew back to Germany with this priceless relic and the Iranians are looking for him too.

[C]

Probably when they found out that the secret service was involved, the German secret service and the Dutch, they backed off. But talking about killing, there are hitmen active in the Netherlands and in Spain. You can read it in the newspapers sent by the Iranian government, killing political opponents, refugees in Europe. So it is a bit of scary. These guys.

[A]

There was a story recently, actually, I'M gonna get the details wrong, but I think he was essentially a custodian or a janitor at some business, and he got murdered in the Dutch Secret Service. It was like, why did the Iranians kill a random immigrant who's been here for 40 years? And it turned out that guy in Iran had put a bomb in a meeting of the ayatollahs during the Islamic revolution. He killed a bunch of them, and then he fled to Europe, ended up in the Netherlands under a totally different name and identity. And he got spotted somehow in a photo. And they said, that's this guy that we've been looking for 40 years. And they went and killed him. Which is crazy.

[C]

Yeah. No, but it's not the only case. There are more cases. They tried to kill some politician in Spain. It's not the people you want to have as a neighbor.

[A]

No, exactly. So this book, Diwan of Hafez, was an ancient book, and a random guy, a random Iranian, just had it in his possession. Is it a family heirloom for him? Like, how did he get it?

[C]

In the past century, in the 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s, it was easier to get your hands on something special. Today we have the Internet and there are more people collecting, but in those days, it was. You could even buy a Van Gogh 100 years ago for a reasonable price. And some people saw this painting thinking, what is it worth? Nothing. He never sold anything. I like it. Give me 10. And these people did the right thing. So in the old days, you still could find a little treasure somewhere. It's over, of course, with the Internet and all the people searching everywhere. But those were the good days. Good old days.

[A]

It's interesting you mention this, because I lived in Ukraine for a summer, so like, three months, and this is in 2002. People had Internet, but it was like, dial in, use your email service, download your email, get out. It wasn't browsing the Web or anything, especially not in Ukraine during that time. And you could go to these flea markets and you could look at things. There's no Van Gogh paintings hanging out, but you could go to these flea markets, and people would be selling family heirlooms and stuff like that from the Soviet Union because they needed money and there were no foreigners there. And so they would all come to me and be like, hey, I got to show you this. You're going to want to see this. And so I remember going and thinking, man, I wish I had more money and a bigger suitcase, because there was a guy who showed me all of this really nice teacups and plates. And on the bottom of the plates had a swastika because it was all made by the Nazis.

[C]

Oh, yeah, I've been there, too. Ten years later, trying to find some paintings. They were stolen in the Netherlands. The museum hired me, and I found out that the paintings were stolen by a Ukrainian guy. He took them to Ukraine, and the police found out about it. They went into his home, they arrested him, and they took the paintings. And they should have brought them back to the Netherlands, but they didn't. They gave it as presents to their chiefs or whatever you call them. And I find it out. And that was also a big case where I had to encounter a secret service, the Ukrainian sbu, in this case, that was also a scary one. I went once to Ukraine, and I went to this market where you were. I even bought a Wehrmacht passport from one of the German army. It was. You could buy it everywhere. There was. I was thinking, all the stuff that must be there. Many stuff from Russia, from the tsars, ended up in Europe in the 1920s, from the last century, 100 years ago, because all these people had to flee Russia because the Communists entered. And they took all their belongings with them, and they sold them here for small prices. And now these pieces do millions. Eggs, you know, stuff like that.

[A]

Yes. These are flea markets, so I didn't see any eggs. But I would see Nazi silverware, Nazi cups and plates, lots of documents, lots of military uniforms, lots of war medals. In fact, back then, there was a trend, and all these guys are probably dead now, but back 25 years ago, there was a trend where if you were an old guy and you had fought in World War II, you would have your blazer and your suit on and your hat, and you would just wear all of your war medals, or at least a bunch of them while you're walking. I would see these old guys walking, and I had nothing to do. I was just there to learn Russian. So I would stop and say, hey, what is this all about? And these guys couldn't wait to talk because they were going to the park to talk to other old guys. So they find an American kid that's interested in the medals that he got on. And I remember this guy was like, tomorrow, come to the park and I'll show you my Order of Stalin or my Order of Lenin. I forget which it was. I think it was Stalin, actually. And he would. He had this medal, and it was like. This was like a plate. It was like a square tea saucer, and it had a certificate and he's like, I got this for. And I don't fully understand his story because it was in Russian and my Russian was middling.

[C]

And.

[A]

But he had done something basically like Medal of Freedom, some sort of heroic anti Nazi thing involving explosions and fire. And he had gotten this really important award. He wanted to sell it to me because he needed money. So I gave him money. And when I tried to fly home with it, I got robbed by the customs agents in Ukraine who stole all of my money and my Palm Pilot and all of these war medals. And they stopped when they saw that because they called somebody from upstairs to come down. And he goes, where did you get this? And I said, oh, it's from an old guy in the park along with everything else. And they were like, oh, they were relieved because the guy even told me. He goes, oh, I'm glad, because if this was actually somebody that you knew, I think we'd have a bigger problem because they don't want to rob somebody whose grandfather had this basically Medal of Freedom, because they're a big deal if you have that. And I thought, this poor old guy sold this to me for 50 bucks. He just needed the cash and didn't care about it. It's clearly a national treasure because they had to call the head honcho from customs while they were committing a crime and robbing a tourist to make sure that they weren't going to get bent over for it.

[C]

And that's the reason why sometimes rich people. There was a dictatorship revolution. They lose their position, they flee, and they take all their belongings with them. They have to sell them for a very low price. And that's how people spot these hidden treasures. That's how it goes.

[A]

Now, a quick word from our sponsors, none of whom, to my knowledge, have ever tried to hide a stolen Van Gogh in an IKEA bag. Strong Brand safety so far. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Ground News. One thing Arthur Brand talks about today is how easy it is to fool people when they only see part of the picture. A forged painting can look completely authentic until you compare it with other evidence. I think the same thing happens with the news, and that's why I like Ground News. It lets you compare coverage of the same story from across the political spectrum so you can see how different outlets frame the exact same events. For example, I was looking at a new CSIS report estimating that the war in Ukraine has caused more than 2 million military casualties since 2022. Ground News found dozens of sources covering the story the Guardian's headline focused on the overall human cost more than 2 million military casualties caused by Russia's invasion. Meanwhile, Stars and Stripes emphasized Russia's losses Russia's staggering losses push Ukraine war casualties past 2 million same report, same data, different emphasis. And that's why Ground News is so useful. It helps you see not just what's being reported, but how it's being reported. Go to groundnews.comjordan to get 40% off their unlimited access vantage subscription. That's groundnews.comjordan again. Ground news.comjordan use that link so they know we sent you that help support the show. And if you like conversations we have on the show about following the evidence instead of jumping to conclusions, I think you'll appreciate Ground News mission as well. This episode is Also sponsored by K12 as parents, we all want our kids in a learning environment where they feel supported, motivated and able to do their best. And the challenge is every kid is different. What works for one child may not be the right fit for another. Which is why K12 powered schools are definitely worth a look. K12 powered schools offer tuition free, accredited online public education for students in kindergarten through 12th grade. K12 helps students learn at their own pace with curriculum tailored to their needs, interests and goals, all in a setting that works for your family. They've been a leader in online education for over 25 years, so they know how to make virtual learning work. Their dedicated teachers are trained in virtual instruction and provide real time support, which means students have guidance, structure and connection along the way. And this isn't just school on a screen. Students can be part of a vibrant online community with extracurricular activities that help them connect with peers and explore their interests. Students can enroll at any time during the school year, so you don't have to wait for some perfect window. See how K12 powered schools can help unlock your child's full potential. Learn [e-mail] Jordan the letter K the number 12 Hey, a lot of you might not know using our promo code doesn't just get you a discount, it really does help the show too. We don't really earn a commission directly from each sale, but when companies see that people respond to our ads and use the codes, they're more likely to renew and continue their partnerships with us. So if you decide to sign up for anything, use our code. It's usually Jordan. It's not always that though. You can double check on the deals page. It's a great win, you get a great deal and you help keep the show Thriving. Thank you for your support. Now back to Arthur Brand. So this is somewhat unrelated to art, but I. When I was in Ukraine, I did buy a lot of stuff that I didn't get stolen. Not all of it got stolen. Some of it was hidden really well or accidentally hidden well. Or I had flat documents put in books and they didn't look in there. And I have this. Yeah, I didn't think I was smuggling, but I accidentally smuggled some of the stuff out. The rest of it was just in a box. If I'd known I was going to get robbed, I didn't think anybody be interested in that. If I thought I was going to get robbed at the actual airport, I would have smuggled the rest of it home or mailed it or something. But I found these work documents that are like Nazi work documents for maybe a Jewish guy or a Hungarian guy. I got to look at it again because it's been 25 years, but I bought them. It's occurred to me now as an adult that I should probably try to return these documents to the family of the person who the documents are for, because this is dark. But it could be the last photo of that person.

[C]

I know I went to Argentina and I saw stuff there too, you know, at the market. Many Nazis went to Argentina. I saw stuff too, in Ukraine and other countries. And you see a picture of a man, of a woman, probably Jewish or Hungarian or whatever, on false labor. And probably they didn't survive and probably their family never knew what became of them. If you have such a passport or whatever, a pass, of course, you know, it's a real hunt to try to find out who was he or she is somebody alive. I definitely would do that if I were you, you know.

[A]

So how do I do that? Because I've gone to the Jewish Museum in la and they were kind of like, yeah, we'll hold it for you, or we'll put it on display or we'll show it. But they're like, we can't help you find these people. And there's gotta be an organization that helps find these people because it's their personal property that I picked up from somebody in Ukraine who's probably either fought Nazis and killed them and took that out of their drawer, or their work camp might have been in Ukraine and they raided it. And that was a document in a box somewhere. Somebody's got to care.

[C]

Can you read the name still?

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's. It's all written in German, but it's a work passport, basically, is what it

[C]

says it's not that difficult these days. You just put it on X and try to ask the public to help.

[A]

That's a good point. I could just tweet it with a photo and say, can anybody help me find this person? Yeah, that's true. It's interesting. It does have personal information for the person that could narrow it down. It's been a while since I looked at it. It's literally right next to me in a box. But it's got the town where he was, the camp where he was, and it's got his name in a photograph of him. So, yeah, it's haunting.

[C]

Yeah. Sad stories because you know, almost for sure that these people never made it back. And you see sometimes the fear in their eyes when this picture was taken. It's so sad. This whole story and this whole World War II story.

[A]

It is sad. Yes, you're right. This is not a smiling photo of this person. It's a mugshot. But he's scared. Yeah. So I feel like as a kid when I bought it, I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. You know, it's 20 years old or something. But now as an adult, I'm like, oh, gosh, if that was my great grandfather, I would want to have this. Not have it in Jordan Harbinger's attic.

[C]

At least it's some way it has not been destroyed. But in my field, in the art recovery, World War II was the biggest art theft in history. Art of Hitler, Hermann. Both were art lovers. They stole millions of pieces all around Europe from private individuals, museums especially from Jewish collectors, of course. And still a few hundred thousand are gone. They are missing. And even today, I recovered one, by the way. It's fresh from the press. Wow. And two weeks ago, we had. Of course. I don't know if you heard about that one. We had a big one, a very big one related to World War II.

[A]

You said you recovered something today. What did you recover today?

[C]

It has to do something with two weeks ago. It was one of the craziest cases in my career. World War II was the biggest art theft in history. They stole a lot from Jewish families. One of those families was Gaudsticker. He was a Dutch art dealer. Dutch, Jewish. The Germans entered the Netherlands. He fled to England by boat. But at night, he went upstairs on the boat and he fell and he died. So Goering personally came to the Netherlands and confiscated his entire collection of 1200 paintings. So Gauzdecker really is a symbolic name for the looting by the Germans. And then a Couple of months I was called by some young man and he said to me, arthur, there is a big secret. And I said, what? And he said, I was at the home of my grandmother and she told me a secret. So his grandmother told him, listen, our last name, we changed it after World War II. This is not our real last name. Our real last name is Seifert. And Seifert is a very familiar name, especially in the Netherlands. Seifert was the highest collaborating Dutchman in a Dutch general. In World War II he helped the Nazis. He became the general of the Dutch Voluntary Legion who fought in Leningrad. They even fought it at the last days in Berlin to defend Adolf Hitler in 45. So he was the head of this legion. He was killed in 43 by the Dutch resistance and the Germans retaliated. Dozens of Dutch men have been killed because of that. When he was assassinated, it made the front page of the New York Times at the time, in 1943. So this guy faints. You can imagine you are a fresh young boy just out of college, you want to make it. And then your grandmother tells you the family secret. We are the descendants of Waffen SS General. So he steps up, he faints, he steps up later. And then his grandmother takes him to the hallway and she said, do you know this painting? He says, yes, I've seen it my whole life. And then she turns it around and there is this label of Gautsticker. And she says, this is stolen from the famous Haudsticker collection. It was stolen from this Jewish family. It's in our family for decades. It's our family secret. Nobody ever is allowed to know. So he faints again. To dark secrets like these in one day. And he knew they would never give it back. So he then approached me and he says, have all the proof, put it in the press. If not, they will not give it back. If you call them, they will say we don't have it and they will destroy it. If you put it in the press with all the evidence, they might return it. So two weeks ago, Monday morning, we put it in the press. It went all over the world. Dutch general, Nazi General. His family has looted Nazi art hanging on the wall. You can imagine the headline, you know. And after five hours, they handed over the painting to us.

[A]

So they had to be shamed into doing the right thing, but at least they did.

[C]

Yeah, we didn't mention their new last name. I don't want to hurt people. It's not their fault that their family member was a Nazi general. But if you are such a family. And you have a looted painting on your wall. Stolen from Jews. That's one bridge too far. And they had 80 years to do the right thing, and they didn't. A couple of days ago we were called by another person who said, I turned around my painting and I see the same label, Gautziker. Do you think it has been stolen too? Because Gautsticker, of course, was a big art deal. And before he fled, he had a regular business before the Nazis came. So some of these paintings were sold legally. So he sent us these pictures. I did some research, and yes, it is another Gautzdicker painting that was stolen. So he sent us back a message saying, I want it to be returned to the family. So it's two times in two weeks, you know, it's crazy weeks for us.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. It would just be wild to me to have something returned after 80 years or whatever. And I suppose if your family flees, it doesn't matter if you were rich when you lived in the Netherlands, you might have a normal existence now. Especially if your great great grandfather, whatever it is, died on the boat on the way to fleeing. Right. You could have just been like a regular Joe at that point, because you leave with nothing and you start your life over as a young person in another country, in England or whatever. So then what? You get Portrait of a Young Girl from this collection, and then you get another one. And these are worth millions of dollars.

[C]

These are worth tens of thousands. But we have recovered paintings also worth millions. But in this case it's more the symbolism. A Gautsticker in the home of the descendants of a Nazi general. It's the worst you can get. We had the same case in Argentina half a year ago. It was also a Nazi who escaped to Argentina. And some Dutch journalists followed his family. He died. They wanted to do an interview and these people didn't want to talk about it. And then they looked their address up and they saw on the Internet that they were selling their home. So they watched these pictures, and above the sofa they saw one of these stolen paintings that he took with him when he escaped to Argentina. That was hanging above the sofa. Also a Gauntznicker, also the descendants of a Nazi. So you can imagine how many of those paintings are still within some families with these last names. It's horrible.

[A]

That's wild. Imagine you go to an estate sale in Argentina and they say, yeah, there's some paintings in the attic that don't really match the decor of the house.

[C]

Oh, I would love to go there with you.

[A]

Oh, man.

[C]

To see what they have.

[A]

I love stuff like this. I actually last year went hiking through Argentina, went to Patagonia, but we didn't go through the typical tourist route. We would stop at farmers houses and stuff like that. And we found one place, they had a beautiful deck and a beautiful big farm. And they were German. And I thought, oh, how interesting. There's Germans in the middle of nowhere in Argentina. And I speak German. So when they were serving us tea and stuff, because they had basically like a little business, if you're a hiker or you. They have Airbnb, right? You can rent one of the rooms in their house. And it's really nice, you. And I said, oh, where in Germany are you from? And the girl was like, oh, I'm not from Germany, my mom's from Germany, I'll go get her. So this older lady comes up and I said, oh, where are you from? East Germany or West Germany? And she goes, oh, when I left, it was just Germany. And I thought, okay, well, I can read between those lines because for the partition of Germany, so World War II. And then I said, where exactly? And she said, oh, it's this part of southwest Germany. And I said, oh, when did you leave? And she says, a long time ago. And I said, when? Look, you can guess by someone's age there's a certain window which they left. And then she hedged and didn't really want to talk about it anymore and just said, you're German's really good. And then walked away. And I thought, I'm pretty sure I struck a nerve because I'm in the middle of Argentina, I'm in the middle of the countryside. These people are German. They left during World War II or slightly thereafter. Why are they all the way out here in the middle of nowhere? Look, they could have just been random refugees who didn't want to live in a broken country, of course.

[C]

But there is a chance that indeed I was in Buenos Aires and they have still have this bar, this restaurant, abc, it's called. As far as I remember, that was the German pub where after the war, Mengele drank his beer together with Eichmann and all these other high ranking Nazis. They were all in the same bar. We were looking for them and they were drinking their beers in Buenos Aires. Crazy stuff. Yeah.

[A]

When I was in college, I went to a talk and this guy, I can't remember exactly what secret service he worked for, but he went undercover or something like that in Buenos Aires and eventually tackled Adolf Eichmann and basically tied him up and took him to Israel.

[C]

Yeah, that's a real great story. There was this. The son of Eichmann, of course, they didn't tell anybody who they were. Eichmann was living there with his son, and his son had a girlfriend, and she was Jewish. So he visited her parents home and he said his last name. And then the father started to think, this could be the Eichmann we are searching for. So he informed the Mossad. I don't know if they were called the Mossad already in those years. And they didn't trust him, first because he was a blind man. But then finally they sent somebody over, and this guy went to the home of Eichmann to see if he could take a picture and then send it back to Israel. And these pictures, you can Google them up. It's crazy, these pictures. So he knocks on the door and he asks some questions, and then he takes pictures of Eichmann, he sends them back to Israel. They watch it, they think it's not him. But when they see the pictures, they know, oh, my God, this is Adolf Eichmann. Crazy story. Fascinating story.

[A]

Imagine finding somebody like that. Yeah. He told the story of just tackling him. And I can't remember what he said, but he said something like, I got you now. You thought you got away with it. We got you now.

[C]

It was the Garibaldi street. I think I even remember the street. It's not that I know all these details.

[A]

Yeah, he tackled him in the road and was like, hey, Israel's got you.

[C]

Yeah, they were standing there. They had a car standing there. It was late at night. Eichmann would come back from his work with the bus, but he wasn't in it. So they waited a little bit more. They were standing there with a car, as if the car had broken down. They were bending over, and then Eichmann passed. And then they said something to him and they took him in the car and took him away.

[A]

Yeah, he basically woke up in an Israeli prison. What a nightmare for that guy. Not that he didn't deserve it. And I think he had pretended to be contrite about the whole thing and denied who he was. And then they knew who he was. They had him dead to rights. They gave him a trial, and then they hung him. And his last words were something like, death to the Jews. So they knew they got the right guy.

[C]

And his defense was, yeah, I only took orders, most Nazis to their defense. They said, yeah, they ordered me to do it. But then the prosecutor said, so if everybody only took orders, we only can blame Adolf Hitler and nobody else, because he gave the orders. So in the end, everybody would have walked free and only Adolf Hitler would have hanged.

[A]

Yeah, Not a defense. So back to the stolen art here. Most stolen artwork never resurfaces. I gotta wonder why is it just sitting in some collector's house? It's in a storage unit in a freeport somewhere. Nazi art. I kind of get it. The person who has it now doesn't even know where it came from. It was given to them by their mom or dad, who got it from their mom or dad.

[C]

Yeah. What happens with. There is this movie, Dr. No, the first James Bond movie. You probably have seen it. It's from 1962, a year before they stole a very important painting from the National Gallery in England, a painting by Goya. And the painting was still somewhere out there. They hadn't recovered it. So when the writers were writing the script for James Bond, they thought, let's pretend that Dr. No, a villain who was fighting James Bond in this first James Bond movie, that he has this painting. So when James Bond enters the home of his opponent, Dr. No, he sees this painting. Of course it was a copy, but they pretend as if it was the real one. And then James Bond says, aha. Here is that stolen painting. People watching that. Thieves who normally steal your car, they think, oh my God, why don't we steal a painting from a museum worth 10, 20, 30 million, and we try to find a doctor no, a guy who's rich and has his private stolen art collection, and then we can retire. So a lot of these people who steal art think that there is a Dr. No out there. But that's Hollywood. There is no Dr. No. Because if you have money, you are not going to buy a stolen piece of art. You cannot leave it to your children, you cannot show it to your friends. If you die, where do you leave it? You cannot sell it. So Dr. No doesn't exist. The funny thing is, the police knows that these thieves are searching for Dr. No. So when they have a lead to a certain group, one of them dresses up like Dr. No and approaches the group. And that's the trick. Whenever the doctor no shows up, it's always a policeman in disguise.

[A]

Got it? Okay. You said that you discovered the illegal art trade is run by just a few dozen people working together in varying alliances. And they're at the top of the pyramid. The treasure robbers, the forgers, the smugglers, the art thieves are all below them. Who are these people? If It's a few dozen people running the illegal art trade. What are they, just gangsters or who are these people?

[C]

There are gangsters, of course, but it's not your local gangster. If you want to be active in the art world, you have to speak your language. You have to know how you drink wine. So normally there are black sheep from very decent families. And one of the biggest in the 70s, 80s and 90s was a Dutchman, Michel Van Rijn. He was at the top of the pyramid. Scotland Yard said Michel van Rhein was responsible for 90% of all the outcry in the world and wants us to believe he's also responsible for the other 10%. Typical of a ride. So in the 90s, he got shot at in the Netherlands. He was a Dutchman, by the way. He got shot at. So he went to England and he started to become an informant for Scotland Yard. Normally when you become an informant, you keep it a secret, but he started a website saying, I'm now an informant and I will reveal everything I know about all the key players in the art market and all the shady business that's going on. And when I started to collect art, I found out pretty soon that there are a lot of forgeries. So I stumbled upon his website, reading it, and I sent him an email. I said, Mr. Van Rijn, it's good to hear that you're on the good side right now. Keep up the good work. And then he invited me over to England and he thought, oh, he's a young Dutch guy, let him come over. So I went there to proclaim a fancy address there. And he invited me in and I sat down. He didn't speak to me. And I was sitting watching him, you know, the former greatest art criminal in the world turning informant. And then the doorbell rang and he said, open the door. So I opened the door and it was the mailman with a package. And he said, who was it? And I told him who it was. And I said, I have to make an important phone call. You cannot hear it. You go outside and you can open the package. So I opened the package. There was a book inside. And then I listened to the door, listening if he was still on the phone. And he wasn't, probably he hadn't phoned at all. So I entered the door and he was sitting there with his two fingers in his ear. And he said, what is it? And I said, a book. And he said, oh, my God, I have so many enemies. I thought it was a bomb. Ah.

[A]

So he was going to have you do it.

[C]

I was just half an hour in his home. So I was watching him. He was smiling, relieved. And I thought, oh, my God, this is nuts. I thought, I should go home now. If my mother knows this, she's going to kill me. But I thought, if I want to have some adventure in my life, I better stick around. And that's what I did. And he introduced me to mafia bosses, to people within the FBI, journalists, informants. And then in 2009, after a couple of years, I helped him with his website. I found out that he was still a little bit. One foot in, one foot out. He wasn't informed he was working with the police. But on the other hand, I suspected him being involved in some other stuff. Then I left, and I started for myself, and here we are. Michel, by the way, died two years ago. He died in his sleep. So he escaped his killers.

[A]

Ah, okay. So I guess he's not coming on the show anytime soon, because he does sound like an interesting guy.

[C]

Yeah, he was.

[A]

Sorry, so. And I know you had your TV show Art Detective, which makes perfect sense. It seems like you launched quite a cool career off this. But. Okay, so if the illegal art trade is run by just a few dozen people, and this is an $8 billion market, these people are insanely wealthy. Or am I misunderstanding the numbers?

[C]

They have so much money. Imagine that some guy in Egypt is working on his land and finds a Greek bronze statue. He sells this to a middleman for, let's say, $10,000. The middleman sells it to a dealer in the United States for, let's say, 200,000, and then they put it at auction, or they sell it to a museum for 10, 15 million. It's a dangerous game, but there's so much money involved. And it's a cleaner game than dealing in drugs.

[A]

The Egypt stuff is wild to me. I took a little sailboat, I think it was called a felucca up the Nile. And when you're around Giza or whatever, you got all these pyramids. There's antiquities everywhere. There's even stuff in water, canals. You see a statue of a lion tipped over in the canal, and they don't even bother to get it out of there because there's a million more. But if you go away from there, remember going to the bathroom, and one of the guys in the boat was like, hey, check this out. He moves a bush, and there's a little wall there, and the wall has a staircase behind it. And inside the staircase, it can go down a little bit before it gets Too dark. And you can see hieroglyphics on the ceiling. And I just thought to myself, we're in the middle of absolutely nowhere. If you are an art thief, you could chip this whole plate right out and put it in a case and you could sell it. And it's priceless.

[C]

And that's what they do. They probably miss this one, but that's what they do. That's how many of this stuff ended up in our museums. The museums in the Western world are full with stuff from some of it bought legally, you know, but much of this stuff has been looted. And again, I have to say, people from the state where most of the time they were involved.

[A]

Oh, people from the states. So Egyptian government, basically. Yeah. Because you got to smuggle it out somehow.

[C]

I knew some Jordanian diplomats who used their diplomatic status to smuggle everything out of the country where they could take with them from Egypt or from Jordan, Lebanon and Jordan. Yeah, Jordan too. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. More with Arthur Brand in a moment. But first, a quick break from the only people in this episode not trying to sell a forged Matisse to a guy named Oleg in a Geneva parking garage. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by HomeServe. We've had enough surprise home repairs to know they happen. Well, never at a convenient time. We've had a pipe leaking in the ceiling, a broken air conditioner, a water heater that randomly quit on us. And when something like that happens, you're scrambling, you're calling around, you're basically thinking, okay, whatever this costs, we just need it fixed. And of course they know that when you call, that's where HomeServe comes in. HomeServe offers plans for different home systems so when something covered by your plan goes wrong, you're not left figuring it out from scratch. You call their 24. 7 hotline, you start the repair process and get connected with a local, experienced professional. HomeServe is like a subscription for your home. For as little as $4.99 a month, they got your back. And regular homeowners insurance usually does not cover a lot of day to day wear and tear stuff like plumbing failures, H vac breakdowns, electrical issues, water heater repairs. With nearly 4.5 million customers, a 4.7 out of 5 rating on Trustpilot and an A BBB rating, HomeServe is the real deal. If I had this during some of our surprise repairs, HomeServe is definitely what I would have wanted in place. Your next costly home repair is already coming, is already on the way. Act now and get protected with a plan through HomeServe for 50% off your first year. Go to HomeServe.com/Jordan to find the plan that's right for you. That's homeserve.com/jordan for 50% off savings compared to renewal price void in Florida. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. We have come a long way when it comes to talking about mental health. People are more willing to discuss stress, burnout, anxiety, and the challenges that they're dealing with. But what's interesting is that even though we talk about it more, actually reaching out for support can still feel like a hurdle. BetterHelp recently released its 2026 State of Stigma report, and the findings really stood out. 2000Americans surveyed revealed that 85% believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say that society discourages people from doing so. One of the ways we can change that is by treating mental health support the same way we treat any other kind of support. If a friend was struggling, would you encourage them to talk to somebody? I know many of us would. BetterHelp connects people with licensed therapists based on their needs and preferences through a brief questionnaire. And I mean brief. It takes like a few minutes at most. There's over 30,000 therapists on the platform and have helped over 6 million people globally. Live sessions have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on more than 1.7 million client reviews. And if your first match isn't the right fit, switch anytime. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with better help. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's betterhelp.com jordan if you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. They make the show possible. All the deals, discount codes and ways to support us are searchable and clickable on the [e-mail] deals if you can't remember the name of a sponsor or you can't find a code, email me jordanjordanharbinger.com we're happy to surface codes for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Arthur Brand. The forgery examples are crazy, too. I mean, was this thing this Olmec head that was just fake?

[C]

Oh, yeah, that was so great. This man, Leonardo Patterson. Such a fascinating story. When he died last year, they gave him an obituary in the New York Times, they interviewed me for it, and they asked me, how was this man, because he was the biggest looter of Latin America. And I testified twice against him. And I always told him, leonardo, when you die, I'm gonna write a book about you. And he said, wait till I die.

[A]

Wait till I'm dead.

[C]

And that moment is now here. He was a very charismatic man. He went into the jungle there in Guatemala, Peru, everywhere around Latin America. And he took entire palaces out, everything that he could find. Gold, silver, and an Omeg hat. The Olmecs were an old Mexican tribe, 3,000 years old. And they made these huge stone heads. You have to Google them, they are so great. And There are only 17, and it's the national pride of Mexico, the Dutch. We have the Sunflowers of Bangor, and they have the Omega heads. There are only 17 existing. And then another number, 18, showed up in Spain during an exhibition. And the owner was Leonardo Pettersen. So somebody from Mexico called me, a state official, and said, can you do some research? Because this has been looted. They don't fall off the tree in

[A]

Italy, you know, they weigh between 6 and 50 tons, and they're between 5ft to 11ft tall. So these are absolutely massive. And they were carved by the ancient Olmec civilization of Mesoamerica, which is now in Mexican Gulf coast, the area of the Mexican Gulf Coast, 1500 to 400 BC. So these are ancient and Mexican.

[C]

And so they asked me to try to find out when was it smuggled out of Mexico. So I hung around Leonardo, and then I got my hands on some pictures, because this omeg head was 100% authentic. That was for sure. I did some research. Many experts in the world, the biggest expert, said this piece is 3,000 years old. So no question about it. So then I had to find out when was it found and smuggled out of Mexico, because that's illegal. And then after a couple of years, I was called by somebody in Germany, also somebody involved with Nazism, his family. They sold stuff for the ss. But anyway, a very important man. And he said, arthur, Leonardo sold me the old May cat, but I want to show you some pictures. And he gave me the pictures, and you can find them on my website, arthurbrand.com these pictures, you see a man with a cap on carving this head out of a big stone. In other words, either the Olmecs had cameras or this was a modern forgery. And the worst was that the experts who had said that this piece was authentic were also responsible for most of the pieces. We see nowadays in museums all over the world and in private collections.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So I published this piece is fake. So all the experts in the world said, you are nuts. You are ridiculous. And then the next day I published these photos.

[A]

So what percentage of art is forged, you think?

[C]

I think around 30% if you buy something at Sotheby, St. Christie's it's far lower, of course, than if you buy it in a small auction house on ebay. Ebay. But generally said 30% of all the artworks in the world are fake.

[A]

Wow. Imagine if 30% of the currency in the world was fake. So if 30% of art is forged, what do you think the percentage of art in museums is Fake.

[C]

I know of some museums that half of it is fake.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

There was this museum in France that was dedicated to one painter. I forgot his name. And then it came out that 55% of every painting in that museum was a fake. So people started to ask their money back. Oh, you don't want to go to. And I think 40% of all the Latin American, the pre Columbian arts from the Aztecs, the Indian, the Incas, et cetera, in the museums all around the world is fake.

[A]

Damn, that's crazy.

[C]

You can earn a lot with fakes. And the trick is this, what they do. Some looters find a coin hoard or some Roman statues, some Greek statues, and they want to put it on the market. And they know they're going to get a lot of money on the black market for each piece, but they have these pieces in their hands and they think, why don't we make a few copies and we double our profit. So whenever a looter comes to a shady art dealer with some of these statues, they always try to pick out the fakes because they always mix it up with fakes. So they gain double. They first loot the stuff and then they make some copies.

[A]

Jeez. This is just absolutely fascinating. Something I meant to ask before. If somebody in, I don't know, the Netherlands has Nazi art that their grandfather took from a Jewish family or Jewish art dealer, can the police recover the art? If you see it in a photo for a property ad like they did in Argentina, can the police go? Okay, well, you have stolen property in your home, so we're going to go ahead and get that.

[C]

No, unfortunately you can't. There is a statute of limitations, which means that a certain period of time, you cannot take it away. It's too long ago. Argentina, they did it. But I'm not sure if it's legally okay, what they did. And in the United States, we now have a new law there, which goes into the direction that maybe in the near future it will be possible. But in the Netherlands and most countries in the world, it's absolutely not done,

[A]

because I understand the statute of limitations, but that usually applies to, hey, this person assaulted you. But it was 20 years ago. There's no witnesses, the evidence is all gone. But I mean, if you say, hey, this was stolen from Jews during World War II, and here it is, I feel like they could make a law that says that doesn't apply to that kind of thing.

[C]

That's an interesting thing, because everybody's hoping for that. And in Argentina, the case against this family of Nazi descendants who had this other painting of Grausticker in their possession. That trial will start pretty soon. They're now called me. I cannot say too much about it, but. And the Argentinians, they are trying to recover these pieces, saying, look, what the Nazis did will never expire. It was against humanity. And it's, of course, a very normal way of thinking. Why didn't we think of that before? Sorry for my French, but the statute of limitations. I helped some Jewish families to recover Stalina. We found a piece in the Louvre, in the Royal Dutch Collection that wasn't scandal. Some of these families, 50, 60 people, and only one made it back from the concentration camp. He or she comes back almost crippled. After two years, he or she goes to a museum, sees this painting that belonged to her family, and what happened in the first decades in France, in the Netherlands, in Germany, in England, everywhere around the world, when this person went to the museum director saying, sir, this piece belongs to us. I am the only one who came back. You know what they told these Jews? They said, you should be lucky that you survived the war. Go away.

[A]

Yeah, that's terrible.

[C]

And until 20 years ago, they had no chance to get these pieces back. Only in the last 20 years. There is now a small window of getting some of this stuff back, and we should encourage that.

[A]

Yeah, of course. That's absolutely insane. But also par for the course, especially after the war. I read a lot of the recovery of art is done without police, but it's negotiated, and I know you facilitate that. So tell me about that. First of all, why would somebody give stolen art back in the first place? If I'm sitting on a valuable painting, what the heck do I want to give it back for?

[C]

I can tell you why. Because first of all, if you're sitting on it, you start to get nervous because you won't be able to sell it if it has been stolen from a museum, for example. Let's go back a little bit further. You steal a painting, you try to find a doctor now. So what do they do? They sell it to another criminal, or they use it as a bargaining chip, or they use it as collateral in a drug deal. So it goes from one criminal group to another. Nobody really wants this painting. What can they do with it? So in the end, it ends up in a group of drug laws whomever who have no idea anymore who the original thief is. In most cases, the thief has already been sentenced. He's already somebody out of jail, maybe 10 years. So this painting is going around in the underworld. Nobody really wants to have it because you cannot put it on your wall. You cannot do anything with it. And when the police finds out, they're going to hunt you down. So if you have stolen property in your possession, a painting of Van Gogh or with the Louvre, you know what was stolen there? These diamonds belonging to the Napoleonic era. You cannot do anything with it. In case of damage, you can reshape them. But let's go back to paintings. So what happens then is there is never a thief who calls me or the police saying I stole a van Gogh yesterday. It's never the thief himself. It's always somebody else who hears something, or it ends up in a group who got it through a drug deal. So when we have a lead, the police or myself, it's very hard to prove that they have it in their possession. You can raid their homes, it's never there. They don't leave this stone of veg under their bed. So the problem, problem is if you raid their homes, you will not find it and they will burn it. There have been many examples of pieces that have never come back. There was a golden helmet stolen last year in the Netherlands. It made headlines all around the world. It was 2,400 years old. It belonged to Romania. They had lent it to the Netherlands. It was stolen. They got the thieves, like in the Louvre. They have the thieves arrested. But where is the loot? So what happens after a couple of years, it goes from group to group and then somebody tips it off, or we find out who they are. So then you go to them and you say, look, I know you have this stolen painting. And they say, I don't have it. And then I say, yes, you have it. And if I know, the police knows. The problem is we cannot prove it. But your problem is we know you have it. So the police will Wiretap you the next three years and your aunt and your neighbor and all the criminals you are dealing with because probably you are drug lord. So what are we gonna do? So in many cases, you can convince them with the golden helmet. We convince them to give it back because then they would get three years in jail instead of six years for this robbery. The French police is probably doing the same now with them who are in jail. So there are a lot of reasons why they would give something back. Sometimes somebody calls because he hopes to get a reward. And in many cases, the best informants. Make a guess who are the best informants.

[A]

For me, the best informants. Isn't it just criminals?

[C]

No.

[A]

No wives or girlfriends. Hey, this guy I used to date said this. Yeah, that totally makes sense.

[C]

I had this German woman a couple of weeks ago on WhatsApp, and she sent me a picture of a stolen painting hanging on a wall. And I said, how are you so sure that it's in dead and dead address in Munich? And she said, because it's the home of my ex husband.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

So those are the best. Wow. The more divorces, the more stolen out we will get back.

[A]

That's amazing. Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Do you get a suspicious girlfriend or another criminal who's jealous or somebody who realizes they can't sell the art they've stolen? Or somebody who says, hey, my dad had this and it's a stain on the family and nobody wants to return it because it's embarrassing. Can you arrange for this to be returned?

[C]

I have a painting here at my home right now, which I recovered. A painting stolen in World War II half a year ago. And then I was caught by another family saying, Mr. Brandt, we've also a painting stolen in World War II. We have no idea where our father bought it. Probably at auction somewhere in the 70s. Nobody knew at the time. We get stuck with it and we don't want to destroy it, because first of all, you don't destroy art. It's what Hitler did. And if art is stolen and you destroy it, you get a punishment for that on top of it because you destroy cultural heritage. So they said, is there any police informed? I said, no, there's a statute of limitations. Nobody can touch you. But it would be great to bring this painting back. And I said, you can come and get it. And that's what I did. So it's still at my home right now because I wanted to leave it to the police. And they said, no way, Arthur, because we cannot be Involved. So we are now waiting to bring it back to the country where it was Stonehenge from a museum. And we bring it there to the embassy and will be a big ceremony.

[A]

You have some priceless piece of art sitting in your house. Are you not worried someone's gonna rob your house?

[C]

No, I don't. First of all, this stuff is not in my home for a long period of time. And believe me, you're not going to steal art from the art detective, because they know I will come after them. And the Dutch police will come after them. And in the end, they cannot do anything with it. If you steal this painting, what are you going to do with it?

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[C]

Maybe I've hit a camera somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, at least I hope you at least have a camera. A couple cameras hanging out. I would assume as you get more and more well known, leads come from really unexpected avenues. What's this about getting a tip you've found somebody on Tinder or somebody had matched with somebody on Tinder?

[C]

Oh, that's a great story. Was this Picasso stolen in 2012 from the National Gallery in Athens? A Picasso. Very special Picasso, because Picasso had given it to the Greek people for their resistance during World War II. So it was a national Picasso. It was hanging there. It was stolen in 2012. Everybody was looking for it all around Europe. And then I got a call from a woman, and she said, arthur, I know you're from television. So I have this strange story, and I said, what is it? I met this Greek man on Tinder, of all places. So we are doing our thing, you know, in bed, and he starts telling me about a Picasso he stole. And I said, yeah, right. And he said, no, I stole the Picasso from the National Gallery. And she told me, and I couldn't believe it. I thought he's bragging. But then I started studying his history of this man, and I got my hands on some pictures. And then we knew, oh, my God, this man is telling the truth. So he got arrested in Athens, and we got this Picasso back. But it's another lead you get from a woman. Women are the best, Jordan. Wow. At least in my field, we need them very hard to solve these cases.

[A]

What's crazy to me is these guys are complete morons, right? They're smart enough to pull off an art heist, but they're too freaking stupid not to tell random women that they're shagging, that they met on a dating app. At that point, just go straight to jail. What are you doing? They're so stupid.

[C]

We know that the Russians send these beautiful ladies to English politicians to get all the secrets out of them.

[A]

Yeah. Unbelievable.

[C]

We men are weak.

[A]

That is true.

[C]

That's for sure.

[A]

What are some of the most valuable things you've recovered? The Picasso has to be quite valuable. That national Picasso, that must have been serious.

[C]

Yeah, that one. But I also recovered a Picasso stolen in 1999 from France from the yard of a sheikh. And that piece was, when I recovered it, like 50 or 60 million dollars worth.

[A]

Oh, wow. From a sheik's yacht. Oh, my God. How did you get it?

[C]

Off a boat repairman. They were doing some repairing there, and the next day it was gone. So when I got it back, I hang it on my wall for one night. I told the police, first of all, we called the French police, and they said, there is this statute of limitations. We cannot do anything. Please bring it back. So we did our best, and finally I got this piece back together with the Dutch police. But they didn't know I would receive it on Tuesday. I told them on Wednesday to the police. So I hang it on my wall for one night. And that was so great, to have this Picasso. I was sitting there the entire evening watching my own Picasso. Wow. And for this part of my work, you don't get paid much, hardly anything. So that's the satisfaction I get out of it, to have this painting on my wall. When I recovered the Van Gogh, it was, by the way, in the same room. I had it here. I wanted to have it on my wall for a night, but the police was there already, and they said, no way, Arthur. We take it with us. You're not gonna fool us again.

[A]

Yeah, no kidding. Wow. Do you get a reward for finding these things or not?

[C]

No. First of all, there is hardly ever a reward. Museums are mostly not insured. It's too much. Insurance companies hardly hire people to recover this out because they don't care. In most cases, they don't care because we are talking here about a billion dollar business. All these underwriters, all these insurance companies, and when something gets stolen, they just raise the price. At the end of the year, what makes 2 million difference on 20 billion? And if there was a reward, I always refuse it because I work closely with the police. I am not police. I have to say it to people who listen. Maybe people in the criminal world thinking I have a story, I should call Arthur. But I always ask permission to the police to dig into a story. And I can never do anything illegal. You know, I always want to have Permission from a prosecutor. And I work now for 15 years with the Dutch police and the Spanish police and the German police. And you don't want to lose that trust. In most countries, the art squad is like one or two people.

[A]

There was a guy on my show years ago. I can't remember his name, but he was working for the FBI and he was on the art squad. And I said, oh, wow, how big is your team? And he said, it was just me until I retired. And now there's no one.

[C]

Yeah, in Belgium, we had one. In the Netherlands, we have three to four. In England, they have three or four.

[A]

Robert Whitman. Does that name ring a bell?

[C]

Rob Whitman. Yeah, he was by the FBI. He has written a book about. What was his name? He's a great guy.

[A]

Yeah. Art Crime. I can't remember the name of the book. I interviewed him in 2020.

[C]

Yeah, I have his book here somewhere.

[A]

How I Went Undercover to Rescue the World's Stolen Treasures.

[C]

Yeah, he had some advantages because he was working for the FBI, but I know that I have my own advantages because the FBI and police squads are normally very bureaucratic. And that's always the downside of it. We are civilians, and people don't realize we have a lot of rights. In some cases, we are allowed to do more than a police officer. Once a police friend of mine said, arthur, you're so lucky. You can go to a criminal that you suspect who's owning stolen painting. You just knock on his door. He says, when I want to do it, I have to fill in a lot of paperwork. Probably I won't get permission. And you just jump on your bicycle. You go there, knock on and say, yeah, but you wear a gun. You know, I go there on my bicycle.

[A]

Yeah. He needs. Needs a warrant, the equivalent of a warrant from a judge. And they have to say, what probable cause do you have? What do you want to ask? You got to make sure you read him his rights or something. And you just show up and go, hey, man, have you seen this painting? I feel like you might know the guy who took this. And the guy goes, all right, come on inside. You want a beer?

[C]

The thing is that most people do not realize is a lot of people, decent civilians who have their normal daily job, they are afraid of the police. And why? Because they are so decent. When the police is around, something is happening. They don't want to get involved. They think if they buy something and it turns out to be stolen, it could be a car, it could be a necklace, it could be a painting. If they go to the police, that the police will lock them up, will hear them out. Don't want to be in that mess. So it's always great. A couple of years ago, a notebook of Charles Darwin was told somewhere in England. It was a very important notebook because he wrote down this theory of his theory of evolution. Yeah. So it was stolen and it was a great loss. And then two or three years after that, they found a package on the doorstep saying, have a great Easter. Sorry for this. Here you have it back. So sometimes people regret what they do. Or sometimes they get something in their possession, but they don't want to go to the police. They prefer to throw it away in the river. And then it's great that they just leave it somewhere. Sometimes they go to a church, leave it there, at the home of a priest. Sometimes they leave it on the doorstep. Sometimes they call me. That's the way it works. But again, I have to say, it's not like we let people get away. Every step I do, it's always in cooperation and with permission from the prosecutor.

[A]

You have some serious stories under your belt. I love this one story. It's one of the world's most notorious art thieves. I think his name is Octave Durham. Also lives in Amsterdam. You were chasing him in 2002 for having stolen two Van Gogh. I know you say Van Gogh, but I can't get used to that. The following year, Durham was arrested. He serves two years in prison. Wasn't you who caught him. But the first time you guys see each other is on the streets of Amsterdam in late 2018. And you just stare at each other. And then later on you go for a beer. And I just thought that was such a funny kind of visual. Right. Because you see this guy and you're like, I'm pretty sure that's that big art thief. And it's like, screw it, we gotta go for a beer. And this guy, he's interesting. He doesn't use violence in any of his art heists. He refuses to do that.

[C]

Yeah. He is one of the biggest art thieves in the world. He stole two Van Goghs in 2002. He sold them to a very famous mafia boss. His name is Raffaell Imperiali. He was the second most wanted person in Italy. Can you imagine in Italy? Rafael Imperiale. He sold them to Rafael Impreial. And when Raphael Imprialed is a drug lord, when he had a court case and they wanted to give him 20 years. And then his lawyer said, we have two stolen Van Goghs. We turn them in you will have to lower the sentence. So Oki sold them to Rafael Impriale, a boss of the Mafia, who used them to make a deal with Italian justice when he was caught for drugs. I am an art detective, and he is an art thief. And he is quite well known, and I'm a little bit known. So we knew each other. We never met. And then I was sitting in this restaurant next to the Van Gogh Museum, of all places. I was sitting there at night and I was eating there with somebody, and I saw somebody passing by the restaurant. It was dark, but I recognized him. That was Okie, my archenemy, because in the same town. And he was walking straight to the Van Gogh Museum. So I jumped out and I knocked on his shoulder and I said, okie, do you know who I am? And he said, yes, you are this idiot, this AR detective. And I said, where are you heading to? Don't tell me you are heading again to the Van Gogh Museum. And he said, oh, no, please, no. It was just a nightmare. He stole these Van Goghs. He spent years in jail. He got a fine of half a million, more or less. So it was a nightmare for him. And then after a couple of months, we saw each other on the street again. And we did this stare down, you know, I saw him walking, he saw me walking, and we stopped and we walked each other in the eyes. And it was 20 meters between us. And then we walked over and we went to drink a beer. He probably wanted to know all the stuff that I knew. He already stopped being a thief, but there were still some cases that had not reached the statute of limitations. So he probably wanted to get into my head to know what I know. And I, of course, wanted to get into his head. But in the end, we became friends, and he helped me recover some important pieces, like the Van Gogh that I recovered in 2023 that was stolen in the Netherlands.

[A]

More in a minute. First, a few sponsors. Because unlike stolen museum jewelry, these offers are actually easier to use when they're not broken into pieces and sold in Dubai. We'll be right back.

[B]

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[A]

and affiliates don't forget about our newsletter, we Bit Wiser. It is specific and practical and it'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, psychology and relationships. It's an under 2 minute read every Wednesday almost. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. Now for the rest of my conversation with Arthur Brandt. Really some cat and mouse James Bond stuff here. It's like playing poker with Le Chiffre. Right? And the guy that bleeds from his eyeball when he has a bad hand. And it's really incredible. It's such a small world.

[C]

Yeah. You must understand that in most art thefts there is nobody killed. Okie never laid his hand on anybody during his lifetime. I'm not saying this is not crime, don't misunderstand me. It's crime. It's severe crime. But it's not drug, it's not killing. You know what I mean? I always tell Okie, okie, you are a very good person from inside, but you do very stupid and bad things. You did them. But it doesn't mean that somebody has to be a bad person. I have to learn to understand that some criminals, not all, some are really lunatics, but some are just regular people who had a bad education, whose father, like in Okie's case, was dealing in drugs. All his neighbors were burglars. So not trying to excuse this, but you have different kinds of criminals. Some are not really bad. They're only doing bad stuff.

[A]

Yeah. They're not dangerous, you mean. Right.

[C]

They're not dangerous. And they're not deep down inside, they're not real bad people. They do stupid things. They steal, which they shouldn't. But that's something different than being a serial killer, you know?

[A]

Yes, of course.

[C]

I Agree somebody who's. Who's selling tons of drugs, where people die from it. That's another level. It's not that hard to sit with Okie and have a beer. And I have to do it because it's my work.

[A]

Another favorite story of mine. Your doorbell rings outside. There's a man holding a large blue bag. And in it is a painting called the Parsonage Garden at Nuenen in spring. This guy had just gotten it from another criminal and he gives it to you and walks away.

[C]

It was stolen 2020 in the Netherlands. And the police caught the thief and the buyer. The guy who bought it, it was a drug lord. He thought, if I buy this stolen Van Gogh and they give me seven years for drug related cases, I will show the Van Gogh and say, look, give me less. But we don't do that in the Netherlands. They do it in Italy, but we don't do it in the Netherlands. So the police had everybody in jail, the thief, the buyer, but they didn't want to give the painting back. And then after a while, with the help of ok, by the way, somebody approached me saying, look, this piece, I know where it is hidden. Where? The guy who's now in jail for drug stuff, I know where it's hidden. Nobody can sell it. It's a headache if they get caught. It's all problematic. And I have a score to settle with this guy. And it was about a woman, of course. And he said, I want to bring it back. I don't want to get arrested. So I talked to the prosecutor and we were very excited. Of course, we thought, we're going to get it back and we could prove that this guy had nothing to do. Of course, he was not from the Salvation army, that's obvious. But he was not involved in this case. We allowed him to do it and he brought it back to my home. So I opened the door. Of course the police was everywhere. Just for my protection. I didn't need it, but they wanted it. And the guy was standing there on a Monday morning, one o', clock, with an IKEA bag. And out of it stuck a pillow. You can watch it on my Instagram account. We have filmed it. There is this pillow full of blood. And I said, what the heck? And he said, yeah, it was hidden somewhere. And they had built a trap with glass. So I cut my hand and I said, but in an IKEA bag. And then he says, arthur, I bring you back this fan. Go. It's going to be front page all around the world tomorrow. And it did it made the Wall Street Journal front page. Are you going to complain? He said, then I turn around and walk away. I said, no, wait, give it. And thank you so very much. And then we filmed it. And I walk up the stairs and I take out the pillow full of blood, and there it was. And I put it on Instagram the next day, this film. And I had all these interviews. So two days after I thought, let's watch Instagram. What? People say they will congratulate me, but nothing of that. The first hundred were, why is that idiot not wearing white gloves?

[A]

You're gonna hate to find out where that painting was for the last few years if you're worried about me not wearing gloves.

[C]

Exactly. That's what I wrote. Yeah.

[A]

Like, no white gloves. It's been in an IKEA bag with some criminal's blood all over it for the past few hours. And before that, it was in a hole in a garage

[C]

with gloves. But the funny thing is, we return it to the museum and with the police, of course. And now they show the IKEA bag also as a piece of history.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So next to the Van Gogh, you have this IKEA bag, this plastic IKEA bag.

[A]

The plastic IKEA bag that has Van Gogh paint chips and blood in it. This is probably one of my top stories. This is the most European thing I've heard in a while. In the summer of 2022, you answer the doorbell and there's a box. Tell me what you find in the box that just. Somebody just leaves this on your porch?

[C]

Yes. Some weeks before that, thieves entered a cathedral, a church in France, and they stole a small box of gold. The problem was, it wasn't gold. It was gilded. And the next day, when they opened the newspapers, they found out that the small box they had stolen contained, according to legend, blood drops of Jesus Christ. It was a Catholic relic. And according to history, when Jesus was crucified, they took some blood drops of him. They survived, and they were already, for 1500 years in that church. So the thief, he had entered this church, seeing this golden basket, thinking, oh, my God, I have a golden basket. And then he comes home and he sees it's not gold. He's killed with copper, whatever, and it contains the blood drafts of Jesus. You don't have to be a religious person to start to get a little bit nervous. I know a lot of thieves who always tell me, arthur, I wouldn't steal from a church. Not a penny. I've never done that. Because it's bad karma. So what happens then? I was Approached by somebody by email, saying, look, I know the guy who did this. He repents. He wanted to return it to the church, but they have put on cameras. Now what are we going to do? Are we going to do it to throw it in the trash or can we put it on your front door? And I said, of course. When are you going to bring it? And they said, we are not going to tell you because we don't want the police to be there. And you cannot put the police on your doorstep for three months at night and day. There's not money for that. They have other things to do. And it still could be a joke. You never know. And then after a week or two, my doorbell rang at night. I looked out the window. I live on the third floor. I looked down and I saw nobody, but I saw this big box there. So I went downstairs, I ran down the stairs, I took it up. And it was not only the blood of Jesus, what they had stolen this dwelling, but also other stuff. And I started unboxing it. And in the end, the blood of Jesus came out. And I'm a Catholic, and whether it's the real blood of Jesus, it doesn't matter. More than a thousand years people have gone to this church during the plague, during the Crusades, praying there for their daughters and children, believing that these were the blood from Jesus. So I had it in my home for a couple of weeks because the French police on holiday, that's where I gotta pause you.

[A]

Right? Because when I said this is the most European thing ever, you call the French police and Dutch police and they're like, hey, we're actually on vacation, so just call us in a couple of months. And in the meantime, you've got this relic with the supposed blood of Christ. And where is it? Like next to your toaster, on your kitchen counter? Where are you keeping this thing?

[C]

No, I put it in my living room. Not because I'm a Catholic, but it's such a precious relic. So important, so old, it means so much for so many people. I put it there and I didn't curse. For these two, three weeks, I had it in my home. When I took a shower, I put a towel. Maybe it's crazy, but I put a towel around me. I never was naked in front of. Really felt religious to me. If for thousands or 1500 years, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, even in the year 1050, when they're praying, there was so much preying on this relic, you feel it. It's strange. Maybe I imagine it, but There is this aura around it that you feel it's something special. I wanted to respect that. And when they took it away, when the Dutch police came to collect it because the French were ready, it was hard to say goodbye.

[A]

I just can't believe the police were like, yeah, we'll get it, but you gotta call us back in September because everybody's on vacation. They just don't solve crime over the summer. That's so European. I don't understand.

[C]

The thing was, nobody was killed. It was safe at my home. They knew I would enjoy it, and they would enjoy the sunbathing at whatever beach they were.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Like we're drinking on a beach, smoking unfiltered cigarettes. Call us in two months.

[C]

What the heck? But they know it's safe here and they have to fill in the paperwork.

[A]

Right? And who wants to deal with that?

[C]

And to be honest, I didn't push them.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I kind of relate. I'm not even religious. And if I had an ancient artifact from a church and they said, we need you to hold onto it for a few weeks, I think that's pretty cool. Thanks for trusting me with that. What I'm curious about as well is some of these recent heists. There was the Louvre heist. We touched on this. Where do I even begin? Why would you steal something from a super secure, famous place? And as I understand it, they took it apart for the stones. Right. So if you just want the gemstones. What are you doing? Because you said they can't steal something that's so famous they can't sell it. So they steal something that's super famous and then they just rip the stones out. It seems like you're incurring a bunch of risk just to dismantle the thing. And by dismantling it, it's way less valuable. But I guess it's the only way it has any value on the black market.

[C]

Yes. When Okie sometimes is being asked, why did you steal these two Van Goghs? Because you were a millionaire already at the time, because you stole so many stuff 24 years ago. His simple answer was, because I could. And with the Louvre, people have been thinking about all the ex thieves. I know. They always brag about their biggest theft. It can be anything. And they all dream, of course, of robbing the Louvre. They are now making a movie already about this heist, so it gives you credibility in the criminal world. So they probably went there, looking around, thinking, oh, my God, this is going to be easy.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[C]

And that's what they did, it was so easy. I don't know if you have seen clips of it. They went up to the first floor with an electronic ladder.

[A]

So they use a cherry picker to go up to the second floor window and they just open the window.

[C]

And they open the window. Yeah, with something. And they go in and take out the stuff and they slowly go down by the electric ladder and they just go away and says, merci beaucoup.

[A]

Wow. And this is like five minute heist.

[C]

Yeah, something like five minutes. And then they have the crown jewels, the French crown jewels, and they driving up off with them on their motorcycles. And now all these guys are in jail, but we have no clue where the stuff is. Oh, and what you said is they cut it down, it's worth like 80 million all these jewels together.

[A]

18 million.

[C]

Wow. No, 80.

[A]

80 million.

[C]

80s. 8. 0. Yeah. And of course you cannot sell it, nobody will touch it. But if you sell them separately, you reshape a little bit the diamonds. It's still like 5 to 10 million. It's still a lot of money. And that's probably what they wanted to do or maybe already have done. That's the big question.

[A]

That's crazy. So a lot of people would think this is a commissioned heist, right? Some villain says, I want this, go get it. But you said, Dr. No doesn't exist. That's only in the movie. So it just seems like there's gotta be an easier way to get gemstones. Why go after a priceless historical artifact just to get raw materials? It seems like way too much risk when you could just go rob a jewelry store.

[C]

A jewelry shop is better protected these days. That's the whole thing. Because they know they are a target and they are very well protected and museums are not. And the bad thing is all the thieves all around the world, everybody who is listening now, whatever village you live in, everybody has his local group of thieves. They all saw this happening and they thought, lying on the couch, oh my God, they did it at the Louvre. And they start thinking, don't we have a local museum?

[A]

Right. Because if you can rob the Louvre, you can rob the museum in your second tier city.

[C]

Exactly. So on the same day that the Louvre was robbed, I was called out of my bed by the Dutch police. The same night another museum was robbed in France and they stole a hoard of gold coins the same night.

[A]

It's crazy to me and probably everyone listening that it's easier to steal from a museum because they're designed for public access. Right in A jewelry store, other locations, they sell things. But you probably have armed security. There's more vaults. People maybe look at a display or a photo. And then somebody's got to go get the piece for you. You got to make an appointment. So there's ironically more security at stores. And I guess if you're Tiffany Co. Or Cartier, you have a big budget for security. But if you're a public museum like the Louvre, you're spending your money on other things and not security.

[C]

Exactly. And 10 years ago or a couple of years ago, they did an investigation there and they wrote a report saying it's not good. Somebody could jump on the first floor with an electronic letter or whatever. They jump in and they walk away. Nobody read this report. As it always goes. They pay for reports and I never read it. And this exactly happened. And now they are gone. The French crown jewels. But it's too easy to blame museums. As you said, they should be open for the public and not turn them into a Fort Knox. It's just not going to happen. You go there with your children. We don't want armed guards in Western Europe. We don't want to have shootings with thieves or whatever. In some cases, these museums are in very old buildings from the 16th, 17th, 18th century, historical buildings. So it is difficult to protect the museum. Of course, they should do whatever they can. But I've cracked cases in which the theft was at gunpoint. So if they cannot take an electric ladder or whatever, they just take a gun. They walk in and say, where's this painting?

[A]

So then they make you unlock it. Or they just start shooting people. Yeah, I mean, they're gonna get it anyways is sort of the moral of the story. This is probably not a thing, but can you identify a gemstone by looking at it with a microscope or something? Like, because diamonds have inclusions and stuff. Right. There's little specks in there. Can you fingerprint important jewels somehow? And then like 10 years from now, someone shows up with a ring and it's like, wow, that gemstone. The fingerprint on this thing is. It's actually from this Crown Jewels that was stolen 10, 20 years ago. Where did you get this? Oh, I got it from this jewel. Can you trace things like that or is that not a thing?

[C]

I know some do have a fingerprint. You have to put it in there in the diamond. As far as I know, some of them do have it. I even heard once that they all have. The bigger ones have their own passport with some things written in it. But Maybe I say something very stupid, Jordan, but I think that's the case. So it's not impossible to recover these diamonds, but the diamonds from 200 years ago don't have it.

[A]

So recently there was also a massive heist. This is Magnani Rocca foundation near Parma, Italy. Four hooded thieves. This is in March 2026. Four hooded thieves executed a lightning fast break in at night, making off with three priceless paintings in under three minutes. So these are pros. The paintings stolen include Pierre Auguste Renoir's Les Poissons, which I guess the fish. Approximately $7 million in value. Matisse's I'm going to butcher this. Odalisque on the terrace and Cezanne, I guess you would pronounce it that way. You can tell I know a lot about art. Still life with cherries. The total haul is over $10 million. And the museum and the police, they keep the robbery a secret. And they had some sort of undercover investigation. It seems like there's more art crime now than there ever was. Is that accurate or are we just hearing about it more?

[C]

It has always been there. I always say on Monday art was invented. On Tuesday, the first art was stolen. On the third day, the first art was faked. But what we do see is from the 80s, we had some record prices for Van Gogh's and stuff like that. So people started to talk more about art related to money. And then you see a rise. And in the last 10 years we see that instead of stealing paintings, in this case in Italy, they stole paintings. But instead of paintings, they now target gold, silver and diamonds. Because these idiots in Italy, what are they going to do with these paintings?

[A]

Yeah, that was my question. Where are they going?

[C]

It's not worth, worth five years, six years in jail. It's worth nothing. You cannot do anything with it. I have no idea why they did it, but we will find out because the Italians will find them sooner or later. There was this funny story in Italy a couple of years ago. I think it was in 2019. The police was informed that some thieves would target a church. Bruegel, we say in the Netherlands, was hanging a very nice, important painting by Bruegel. They knew they were going to target it and they thought, we can remove the painting, but then they will target another church. So the painting got stolen. Everybody was mad in Italy. And then the police revealed, three days after the theft, we knew they were coming, so we replaced it with a forgery. So the thieves walked away with a fake painting. So they were probably happy for three days and then found out that the police had tricked them out. Yeah.

[A]

Was there a tracking device in the frame or anything like that?

[C]

No. They put up their Italians. They probably only put some cameras there that didn't work in the end. They never caught the thieves, of course.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

I love the Italians, by the way. My favorite people, but you know what I mean.

[A]

Yeah, it seems like. And they have the biggest art squad too, of anywhere in the world.

[C]

300 men and women. That's obvious because Italy has this tradition, you know, if you walk around Italy, the only thing you see is old stuff. Antiquities. The soil is full of uncovered treasures. And of course, Italy is also the country of the Mafia. When you combine the biggest treasury in the world and the biggest criminal group in the world all together in a small country, this is what you get.

[A]

You gotta wonder, what are those guys doing if they can't catch the thief and they know they're coming? And they even managed to swap the painting out. It's like you couldn't put an airtag in the fricking frame. Guys, come on. Wow. This is just insanely interesting. At some point, we've got to do another one of these.

[C]

And at this very moment, I'm cracking a gaze theft in the Netherlands. And I do it with. I was interviewed by two American journalists who have their own newspaper. They are six and nine years old, two little girls. They interviewed me for their printed newspaper.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And I promised them one day we would crack a case together. And we are now in the process of cracking that case together. They're helping me now. And let's see if we manage to do it. You don't need. Always need Okie or another ex criminal. Sometimes you just need two smart girls of six and nine years old.

[A]

Amazing two little Nancy Drew fans. I don't know if people know who that is. There was little detective stories when I was a kid. Unbelievable. So interesting, man. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I know it took a while to arrange, but I just find this endlessly fascinating. Any sort of art crime is interesting to me. Forgeries, heists. I think people just have a soft spot for this. The world loves hearing about it. That's why it makes front page news.

[C]

Yeah. And it shouldn't be, you know, it's still crime. But then again, when something is stolen and it's being returned, it's a good story. And in most cases, nobody gets killed. It's not a dirty game. It's stealing beautiful art. And hopefully we recover it. And the mona Lisa, for example, was not a famous painting before 1911.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Until it got stolen. Oh, I didn't know that it was stolen. And then the attention of the entire world was focused on this painting. And everybody thought, this is a great painting. This is the Mona Lisa. And that's one of the reasons why it's the most famous painting in the world. One of the reasons is because it was stolen in 1911.

[A]

I see. So when you have a painting that famous, the security, I would hope, is a little bit better than the windows locked. And don't worry, we closed the door at night. It's gotta be better than that.

[C]

One of the biggest collections in the world is in the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston. And in 1990, it has a Vermeer, a Rembrandt. And in 1990, there was a knock on the door. Two guys were sitting there, two guards. One of them was a student. He was smoking pot the entire day. And they were told, never open the door, not even for the Pope or whatever. So the two police officers knock at the door, and they say, we have to enter because we got a complaint. And they say, no, we cannot. And then one opened the door. The police entered and said, gentlemen, this is a robbery. And they turned off the alarm, and they were in for, I think, 80 minutes. And they took for half a billion word of pain.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

You and I could have pulled it off, Jordan. We are not the smartest, but you and I could have done it, you know.

[A]

Yeah, there's not a whole lot of trickery. This is not Ocean's Eleven. If you just knock on the door and pretend to be a cop and then steal over the course of an hour and a half,

[C]

sometimes the easier the idea, the better it works. You don't have to jump out of an airplane on top of a museum with a parachute. You just knock on the door and say, can I have a pee?

[A]

I went to go see Edward Munch's the Scream, and I remember thinking I could just grab that and rip it off the wall and run out. And then I thought, no, of course you couldn't. There's about a ton of hidden security. There's lasers and stuff you probably can't even see. And now that I think about it, no, I probably really could have just taken it off the wall.

[C]

It has been stolen twice already. And there is this clip. I think it was the 1994 case that it was stolen. There were these guys, they put a letter to the wall of the museum, to the first floor, the ladder Falls on the floor, they almost break their legs. They go up again, knock out a window, and they walk out with one of the most expensive paintings in the world. They left a note saying, thank you very much for the bad security.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Goodbye. So it has been stolen twice. So if it gets stolen the third time, we have proof. Jordan.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't have telegraphed my. Now you know it wasn't me. Or was it? Arthur, thank you very much for coming on the show. Man, this is absolutely fascinating.

[C]

No, it was great, Jordan. You're welcome.

[A]

You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show. With a skilled art forger who made millions selling his fakes, I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion, present it to a experienced expert, and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine. We flooded the market with my paintings, and eventually the FBI were led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me, but they never actually got you. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And how are we having this conversation? I guess that's the greatest story of all. To hear details of how Ken Parenni evaded the scrutiny of everyone from the mafia to the FBI. And live to tell the tale, check out episode 282 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Big thank you to Arthur Brand. I mean, the guy has had stolen van Goghs delivered to his door, religious relics left on his counter, and cat and mouse beers with actual art thieves. Meanwhile, I get nervous when FedEx says my package was left with residential and I don't know which resident. Gotta go to Amsterdam at some point and interview him and that famous thief together. I think that would be a really fun episode. As usual, all things Arthur Brand will be in the show. Notes on the website, advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show. Also on the [e-mail] deals please consider supporting those who support the show. Don't forget about six minute networking as well. [e-mail] I'm ordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. Or just hit me on LinkedIn. And this show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tata Sidlowskis, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. In fact, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who's interested in true crime, art crime, or organized crime, definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

[B]

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