← The Jordan Harbinger Show
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1361: Creep's Snaps Turn Tide on Body Positivity Ride | Feedback Friday
01:29:29
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- [00:00]
Jordan Harbinger
This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire that can help you grow your business. This gives me flashbacks to a nightmare hire in my previous company that really stunted the business, and even talking about it now makes my blood pressure go up. But the right hire is the exact opposite. Somebody who takes ownership, solves problems and helps the business grow faster. And when you're small, that kind of impact is massive. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes to find the right fit. And that's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you. So instead of sorting through applications, you spend your time talking to candidates who are actually a good fit. With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, Those hiring with LinkedIn are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free@LinkedIn.com harbinger terms and conditions apply.
- [01:02]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word.
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Jordan Harbinger
My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvanna. Twas a lovely suv, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it.
- [01:21]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Tonight we feast.
- [01:25]
Jordan Harbinger
An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the dude helping me take on your problems while I'm in Taiwan, Gabriel Mizrahi. It's early here on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. To help. During the week we have long form conversations with neuroscientists and investigative journalists, astronauts and cold case homicide investigators. This week we had an out of the loop update on scam centers with Lindsay and Nathan over there in Cambodia. Those scam centers are being hit by F16s. There's a conflict going on. It's actually crazy and a bunch of the people have been rescued but not Quite enough. So we did a whole update on that. Don't forget to check that out if you haven't done so yet. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and pack you in our suitcases while we gallivant around this strange, incredible planet of ours. Speaking of which, this is my last episode I'll be recording in China because we fly home tomorrow.
- [02:40]
Gabriel Mizrahi
This month flew by for me, anyway. I don't know what it was like for you.
- [02:43]
Jordan Harbinger
Well, yes and no. I suppose it has been a bit of a blur between visiting a few different cities and putting the kids in summer camp here and running around exploring. Four weeks does go by really fast, but also at the same time, you're kind of like, okay, we're on week two. Does this not feel like we've been here a month already? So every week you feel like you've been there for a month or more, and then by the end you're like, wait a minute, we didn't even get to do all these other things on the list.
- [03:08]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So, any highlights since I last saw you?
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Jordan Harbinger
Nothing huge. Just more weird observations, really. I think about China and Chinese culture.
- [03:15]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I love it. Let's hear them. What you got?
- [03:16]
Jordan Harbinger
So, first of all, I don't know if it's like, we don't care about the rules because we're rebels. I don't get it to be kind of from that angle. I think it's just that there's a lot of rules that people decide are not important, and then there's invisible rules that are so you don't want to lose face and stuff like that. Right. All these little invisible rules you've heard about in China where, like, you don't want to get embarrassed and things like that. And I'm not going to go deep into that because it's very complicated. But a lot of visible rules. Like, hey, there's a painted double yellow line on the road. You're like, nah, I don't care. I'm going to drive on the other side. Or smoking next to a sign that says no smoking. Even in places where it's wildly inappropriate. Like, you'll go into the bathroom at a hospital and there will be people smoking in the bathroom next to the no smoking sign in the hospital.
- [04:04]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Are you serious? Inside?
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Jordan Harbinger
Yes.
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Gabriel Mizrahi
Not even outside?
- [04:07]
Jordan Harbinger
No. Not like, too close to the door? No. No. Like inside the hospital or the clinic, or there'll be a school and a guy will flick his cigarette through the fence of the school into the playground where there's kids playing and he's just like, whatever, I don't want this anymore. And it's like, uh, o. Okay. You could have put that literally anywhere interesting. Yeah, there's a lot of that kind of thing. It's very bizarre to me. And I don't think it's like, yeah, screw it, we don't care about them kids. It's just kind of like, eh, smoking. It's not that bad. Everybody does it, whatever, who cares? I think it's more like that. I really do. And it's very strange to see somebody go to a park, eat a bunch of food that they bought at a food vendor and just leave the trash all over the whole area of the park.
- [04:53]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh, that kills me.
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Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I wanna very clear. China is a country of, they say 1.3 billion. I think real estimates are more like 800 million. It's not all 800 million people doing that or the place would look way worse. Okay. It's a few people. And when I ask other Chinese people like, hey, what's up with these people just leaving the trash everywhere? Young kids especially, they're like, yeah, he's a gross guy from probably like a small town. And they just do stuff like that there. There's sort of this like, oh, if you don't live in a city, they call them peasants in Chinese. And they. It sort of just means farmer. But it also has a little connotation like, yeah, of course you're spitting on the ground because that's what you do over there. So there's this rural urban divide that I think especially young people are acutely aware of. I was talking to a buddy the other day who went to Macau, which is a former Portuguese colony, now part of China officially again. And they have a lot of casinos there. It's basically like Las Vegas but even more crazy with the casinos and stuff like this. They have the Wynn and stuff. And I said, oh, I heard Macau was gross. And he goes, no, Macau is beautiful, but the people who go there to gamble are gross. So it's actually a lot like Las Vegas in that respect, now that I think about it. But he said he'd be at the Wynn in like a nice large carpeted hallway. And you're walking down the hallway just like you would be in Las Vegas, and you're getting ready to go see a Cirque du Soleil show or something like that, and there'll be a guy smoking similar to Vegas, and he's going to gamble thousands of dollars per hand on baccarat. Or roulette. And he suddenly goes and spits on the floor. Indoors, in a carpeted hallway.
- [06:34]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh, no. Yeah, inside.
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Jordan Harbinger
Inside. On the floor of a carpeted hallway. And this is a guy who's wasting tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars gambling. And he's not drunk and doesn't know where he is. He's just like, I'm gonna spit on the floor because that's what I would do at home.
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Gabriel Mizrahi
Horrifying.
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Jordan Harbinger
Horrifying. I know. That's like your actual nightmare, your actual worst nightmare. For me, it's certainly something that I would not be able to handle. There's a lot of spitting here. I just never saw it indoors. And I wasn't visiting a lot of casinos or anything like that. You see a lot of people, like they'll be getting their bike out from a rack of scooters and they'll do it. And you're just like, wow, right in the road, huh? But you know, you're outside so you can kind of wrap your mind around it because if you were going to spit, which you probably shouldn't do in public, you would do it outside, but they'll just do it right on the sidewalk. It's a little gross. It's a million times grosser inside. And then when you add the carpet factor, it's just like, holy cow, I
- [07:30]
Gabriel Mizrahi
can't imagine doing that within 50 yards of a Cirque du Solacea.
- [07:33]
Jordan Harbinger
No. And a bunch of people behind and around you too, right? On a carpeted floor. It's like, no, okay, they're going to clean it later. I just. That I can't quite wrap my mind around. There's also an insane amount of abandoned properties that are just absolutely enormous. And I'm talking about stadium sized luxury hotels or would be apartment buildings, just incomplete concrete husks similar to what we saw in North Korea. Remember that humongous hotel that turned out to be unsafe to occupy? And they ended up just covering it with. They had Egypt Telecom, I think when they came in to create the mobile network, they just had them cover it in glass so it doesn't look terrible. And they would Photoshop it out of skylines when they took photos. So China has a ton of those. And I don't really know why. I tried to figure out why. I asked people and they'd be like, yeah, they were building a hotel here for Marriott. And then they just stopped and I'd be like, well, when was that? And like, oh, seven years ago. And so you're like, okay, this is probably not coming back. So it's just in the middle of town. And what's crazy is they'll be the reason I found some of these is I go, oh, we should have stayed here. They have a. Whatever. St. Regis. I wonder. It's probably reasonably priced cause it's in China. And you're like, where's the St. Regis? And you look behind the sign, which is in perfect condition, and there's a giant concrete husk of what would have been the St. Regis or whatever. And it's just this massive city block sized property that's just completely empty and there's no equipment. It's not like they took a pause, like I said, I asked people and they were like, oh, that's been here for, you know, five years, seven years. They're not coming back. If they come back, they're on the edge of having to destroy that just because it's been exposed for so long. Concrete husks. I looked this up. Concrete building husks. They last maybe five years in good condition. Like, good enough. And then you have to clean it because of mold and stuff. And then after that it's like, okay, you have to inspect it and chances are you have to just tear the whole thing down because the rebar starts to corrode and stuff. So it's just going to end up being a total loss. And you'll see these. It's not like, oh, this is a random place, it's close to town. Or it'll be like at the top of a mountain. And you go, oh my God, that place is going to be amazing. What's the ETA on that? And they're like, oh no, that's been here as long as I've worked here and I've worked here for four and a half years. They're not working on that. You're like, oh, so it's just somebody bought that and licensed it or whatever and just started building and then ran out of money or like didn't know the right people who came to power at that time and they just didn't finish it or, you know, I don't know. It's very hard to see what they're going to end up doing with that. And it's a shame because sometimes the massive center of an area will just be a bunch of those. And you're like, oh, like the waterfront will have three. Just. It's a shame. I also, I was reading at a cafe when I was in Dali China, which is again a tier 4, tier 5 city. I was reading the Atlantic. There was a piece on Iran, the Iran deal, by a friend, Graham Wood, who's been on the show before. And I sent him a text because I really liked the piece. He said, hey, where are you these days? And I said, oh, I'm traveling. He said, oh, I'm in Yunnan, China. And I was like, wait, did you just. Are you trolling me? Because it seems strange to me that. Did you just see my Instagram post or something? And he's like, no, I don't use social media. And I said, I'm also in Yunnan. And he goes, oh, I'm at this cafe in Dali, China. And I was like, I looked at the map and I said I could walk there from where I am right now. I'll see you in 15 minutes. Yeah. So this is a guy I haven't seen or talked to in four plus years. And I decided to text him.
- [10:54]
Gabriel Mizrahi
What are the odds?
- [10:55]
Jordan Harbinger
I can't believe this small world style coincidence. It's not like, oh, I'm also in New York right now. Okay. You know, okay, okay, that happens. That's a cool coincidence to be in this random city in China. And I said, oh, how long are you gonna be here? He's like, oh, we're gonna be here for a couple of months. So he also brings his kids there. We ended up having dinner with the whole family, and his kids were also in Mandarin school, going to camps and stuff Here in China. It's crazy. They come every year. So the reason I'm telling this story not only is because it's an insane coincidence, but also because it's the six minute networking stuff at work. Because I again, and I talk about this in the six minute networking course, which you can find for free@sixminutenetworking.com when you read an article by somebody or you see an article that would. That works well for me, right? Because I know a bunch of these journalists and authors. But let's say you see an article and you know somebody who would be interested in it, and they're not necessarily the author of it, you think, oh, they'll be interested in this. You send this to them and then you get the update on them. So that's part of the system, and it's the system at work. I texted him based on the article. He turned out to be in an area very well, the same area I was. And I said, what are you doing tomorrow for dinner? And he said, nothing. And we ended up having dinner with him and his whole family. And so that really helped Solidify and I guess you could say rekindle our friendship. Which again, I checked my last text before and it was like pre pandemic, I think was the last time I had actually talked to him. So. So maybe six minute networking needs a little spit polish on my end because it's been so long for him. But. But at least, you know, this actually brought him into a closer circle, I would say, as opposed to former show guest and guy. I text sometimes when I see his pieces or email sometimes when I see his pieces. It turned into, you know, friend. I can text at any time and probably will see next summer when we come back. Which is another point because now that the trip is wrapping up, I have. It was really amazing to see my kids learn Chinese so quickly. I mean, granted, they hear Chinese all the time at home. They just refuse to speak it. But when they came here, it was almost immediate. They didn't want to speak it at all. But a day or maybe two after they got here, they're like, oh, we have to speak Chinese now. And they would come back speaking Chinese to each other. And we got my son this. All kids here have these video basically like a FaceTime watch where you can video chat your friends and there's little chat groups and you can voice, text and send little images and stuff. So he was doing that in Chinese on day two because all the kids had it. So he's like, oh, I'm part of a group chat. And they'd be like making jokes and kicking it in Chinese. And my daughter was speaking Chinese. She refused to speak Chinese for the most part at home. My Chinese got better too. I had a couple Chinese lessons while I was here. And my teacher right away was like, what happened? And I said, oh, it's 8pm so I'm a little bit more awake than I am at 7am when I usually take my Chinese lessons. And she's like, oh, I don't think so. Your accent's better, your vocabulary is more quick, your rate of speech is faster. So my teacher noticed right away that my Chinese improved. I think we're gonna do this every year, at least until World War three happens. So maybe only a couple more years. I don't know how that's gonna work. Well, debatably, World War III has already started, right? Ask Ryan Macbeth. But anyway, I think we're going to do this every year. It was really cool to travel with the family and Jen's whole extended family or part of her extended family, I should say. I feel closer to everybody who came with us, of course. We spent so much time together. We got super close. And that's really special. You know, you don't get a chance to spend a lot of time with your in laws. Some people are okay with that. Or your wife's aunt or something like that, or like cousins and stuff like that. So here, that was not the case at all. It was like, every day I'm really bummed my own parents couldn't come. I think it was a little bit too much for them. You know, there's a lot of stairs, there's a lot of uneven ground. It was 90 plus degrees every day with 100% close to humidity, torrential downpours making things slippery. And my parents are in their mid-80s. Like, that's just not. It's not fun at that point for them. But I did miss them. I'm looking forward to seeing them when we get back. And look, you don't have to take your whole family to Asia in order to create an experience. I know I'm speaking from a position of immense privilege. And there's probably people who are like, hey man, congrats on being a wealthy jerk who can take his family across the world. I don't care. I'm not saying any of this to brag. And I think a lot of people can create a similar type of experience. You could go camping an hour away. You might not learn Chinese doing it, but getting your family together for a special dinner, whatever it is, is really special. It's just the sort of change of environment and everyone together thing that really made it special. Every time we do stuff like this, I'm always like, man, this is what it's all about. We gotta keep doing this. Because life really is made up of these experiences. As much as I love the idea of getting back to regular work and my normal routine, I probably won't remember the months between this trip and the next thing that I do, the next trip that I do, or the next big thing that happens, because those things blur together. I'm not gonna remember making 20 episodes of the show in my office. Right. It's just not gonna be a thing that sticks out of my memory. But these trips, they really leave a mark and they're. They're just very precious. So I hope you get to do the same, whatever that looks like for you. Again, it could be camping, you know, rent one of those little RVs. I guarantee you if you rent an RV and you stuff your kids and parents and in laws in there, you're gonna have a time and that time might just remind you how much you value sitting in your office doing work alone. You're welcome.
- [16:33]
Gabriel Mizrahi
That might inspire a Feedback Friday letter that we read on the show.
- [16:36]
Jordan Harbinger
It might. And you might say, jordan, that was the worst idea ever. And to that I say, you're welcome.
- [16:41]
Gabriel Mizrahi
But you know what? You're welcome. And it was still an experience.
- [16:45]
Jordan Harbinger
That's right.
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Gabriel Mizrahi
It's gonna be an experience.
- [16:46]
Jordan Harbinger
Either way, you will remember it for the rest of your life, possibly as a turning point either to the left or to the right. I don'. We'll see. By the way, a lot of you wrote to me on social media or elsewhere asking and in the subreddit, I think, asking how I ended up doing voiceovers for Grand Theft Auto 4. I said three before, but somebody found it. It was actually four. My bad. Grand Theft Auto 4. All those years ago, what happened was I was working at Sirius XM doing my radio show. Basically, we were the first podcast to be on the radio. So we would record the radio show. We had call ins. It was similar to Feedback Friday, but more dude, bro, I think. And we would take callers and handle relationship and dating issues and stuff like that. And the station manager, I don't remember his exact title. His name's Rob Cross. Great guy. Actually he had a GTA, a bunch of GTA 2 memorabilia on his desk. And I was like, oh, how'd you're GTAA Grand Theft Auto fan, huh? And he's like, oh, well, my friend, he helps run Rockstar games. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And he goes, yeah, I actually did a couple pedestrian voices. And every week it became kind of like, hey, let me know when you're gonna do pedestrian voices again. And I followed up every month or so with him. Cause I'd go see him and chat and one day he just goes, oh, you know what? Actually I was just there doing pedestrian voices. And he goes, I can't believe I forgot to intro you. And I was like, I can't either because I've been annoying you about this for, I don't know, a couple months or maybe even a couple years by now. And he's like, yeah, yeah, let me send that email right now. So he sends an email and the email's something like, hey, my friend Jordan does really good voices. He's a chat show host here on Sirius xm. And they emailed back right away and they're like, cool, can you do a hot dog cart vendor? A regular pedestrian getting hit by a car, A guy shooting or getting shot and some other sort of. I can't remember the exact names of these things, but it's when you go like, oof. Ugh. There's a term for those in voiceover where it's not words, it's just emotions. But I needed to do a bunch of those. And they needed retakes of some other characters where the actor was gone. But they're like, can you be Russian and get shot? I'm like, yeah, okay. So I show up and they go, okay, can you do this? Can you do that? It was a couple of pedestrians, a couple vendors, really short, like one or two lines at most for each of these people. Grand Theft Auto, for people who don't know you're driving a car a lot of the time. And so you listen to the radio. I did a bunch of radio stuff. Like you're listening to 95.5 the Rock. You know, I did a lot of that kind of stuff. And then they were like, all right, well, this is going pretty well, actually. We have some bonus stuff we could do for. It's called a dlc. It's downloadable content, so it's like an extension of the regular game. And I said, sure, I can do that. So they started giving me larger parts because, I don't know. I mean, I asked why, and the guy said, well, you're easy to work with and you have a lot of range, which basically means you can do a lot of different things that you're not, you know, you're not just a Russian gangster that can get shot, or you're not just an Indian hot dog cart vendor or a guy getting hit by a car. You can do all these different voices. So I started doing all those extra characters. And it was great because I remember at the end I had brought a bunch of friends with me who also did different voices, and they were like, oh, yeah, you get a T shirt and a copy of the handheld video game. And I was like, great. So I'm getting ready to leave. And I'm like, hey, you can keep the handheld video game. Cause I don't even have that game system, but maybe I could have two T shirts and I'll give one to my friend. And they go, no, man, you've been here for I can't remember how long we have to pay you. We have to pay you for this. Like, we can't just not pay you for all that. And I went, oh, okay, great. And I remember thinking, wow, I bet I made like $100 an hour. And I remember that Fat check showed up, and I just fell in love with it. Cause I was like. That didn't feel like work at all. It was super fun. And knowing that your voice is in this game forever is amazing. And it was just. It was hilarious. I mean, we were even. The director was laughing so much during this se And I just had a really great time doing this. And I thought, this doesn't feel like work at all. I mean, this is just as much fun as you can have. And then I came back, and I think I had a check for. Like I said before, I think I had a check for like 500 bucks. And I worked. I don't even remember. I can't even remember because it went by so fast. And I thought, oh, I could do this every day. That would be a dream come true. Now, I've done a bunch of other voiceover acting, voice acting since then. It's not all as fun as Grand Theft Auto. Some of it's really hard. Some of it is real acting that is far beyond my capability to do. I mean, real acting is a skill that I just. Most people don't have. And as games become more advanced, they require better and better acting because the characters look more real and the cinematics look more real. And you're not playing a Star wars droid anymore. That can be corny and silly and fake. You are playing a real person where if you act silly or unbelievable in a way that's not believable, it screws up the whole game. It's actually kind of an interesting industry phenomenon. I won't get too far into this because I know people want to actually hear the show, but there's a phenomenon where guys and gals who are really, really good at certain kinds of video game acting in the past can no longer cut it because as graphics get better, the believability has to go up a little bit. If you were acting like an Android in 2005, you had to be a little cartoon Android so you could be this little corny Star Wars y cartoon Android thing, and it was fine. Now you have to be an Android that looks like a human and looks exactly like a human and behaves exactly like a human. Because if this is an Android that can do everything a human can do but is super smart and has superhuman strength because they're a robot, you can't also have a totally corny, not believable at all personality. So it's actually. The industry is leaving a lot of voice actors behind who just don't have the ability to pull it off anymore. So I thought that was kind of interesting. And I'm for sure in that boat. Like, I can do very corny, cliche, mafia gangsters in Grand Theft Auto type stuff. Tongue in cheek type of stuff. I can do like the Will Arnett type characters, but you wouldn't want me in a role that's any sort of serious. It just, it won't work. And now I'm gonna quickly whore out my voice again to hype the amazing sponsors who support this show. Then we'll dive into this week's letters. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Chime. It's hard enough as it is to save when prices keep going up. Rent, groceries. Don't even get me started on gas. Everybody's complaining about gas. And then your bank decides, hey, it's a perfect time to charge you a fee for not having enough money. Not exactly a system designed to help you build momentum. That's where Chime comes in. Chime is changing the way people bank. They're not like traditional banks that gatekeep rewards or pile on fees until you keep a massive balance. 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No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on a J.D. power survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, MyPay, Spot Me and travel perks go to Chime.com disclosures this episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Most home security systems are really good at telling you somebody already broke into your house. The problem is burglars can be in and out of a home in like 10 minutes. By the time the alarm goes off and somebody actually reacts, they're already long gone. They grabbed what they came for. That's why I chose SimpliSafe. With the Outdoor Camera Series 2 and advanced AI alerts, SimpliSafe's US based live agents can identify threats on your property and help deter them before a break in even begins. That distinction matters because when we're asleep or out with the kids or traveling, I don't want a notification documenting what happened. I want a system designed to intervene while there is still time to stop it. What I appreciate most about Simplisafe is the peace of mind. It was really easy to set up. There's no long term contracts, monitoring and deterrence plans, they start at around a dollar a day. We want you to experience the same peace of mind we do. Which is why we've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now you can get 50% off your new system by visiting SimpliSafe.com Jordan that's half off@simplisafe.com Jordan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, Wee Bitwiser. It's a bite sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it your life, I invite you to come check it out. Jordanharbinger.com News is where you can find it. All right, Gabe. What is the first horror out of the Nightmare Sack?
- [25:55]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Hello, handsomest boys. Oh, ten years ago. Hold on.
- [25:59]
Jordan Harbinger
No, let's get something straight. Let's get something straight. I am the handsomest boy. That's why they call me Handsome Boy number one. According to the riverboat waitress in Ha Long Bay, Vietnam.
- [26:12]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I really should have seen this coming.
- [26:13]
Jordan Harbinger
Gabe is the second handsomest boy. Handsome Boy number two. Which we decided to give you as a consolation prize so you don't feel bad.
- [26:21]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And to be clear, nobody gave it to me. I don't even. I did not fight for this. I just defaulted to HB2.
- [26:28]
Jordan Harbinger
Gabe cried until we called him Handsome Boy Number Two. That's what happened.
- [26:32]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Defamatory and false. But I understand. You gotta. You gotta. I hope you feel better now that you've protected your title. Your precious little title.
- [26:39]
Jordan Harbinger
I worked hard to earn it. I won't have it buried in a general Superlative from a listener who's just
- [26:44]
Gabriel Mizrahi
being nice to you. Ten years ago, I participated in a naked bike ride in Philadelphia. Then a few days ago, I was contacted through LinkedIn by a good Samaritan I didn't know telling me that there were nudes of me on an exposure porn site. The site posted side by side clothed shots of me from my workplace's website and my Instagram, and also shared my job field and first name. The website did indeed have these.
- [27:11]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, my God. Can you imagine biking in Philadelphia? I assume this is in the spring of the summer. You wouldn't want to. Wouldn't want to be in Philly naked on a bike in the wintertime.
- [27:21]
Gabriel Mizrahi
The weirdest point to harp on after what she just shared. You're like, I don't know. She's talking about being exposed on this horrible website by some creep that we're about to hear about. And you're like, man, but that bike seat must have really chafed in the summer. Can you imagine?
- [27:36]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, it must have been a woman, because no guy would be caught dead on a bike in the winter naked. I mean, shrinkage alone would be humiliating. Yeah, this is actually. I joke, but this is terrible. This is really awful. And I know people are gonna be like, whatever. You were outside naked. Of course someone took pictures. Something about this being on the website with your clothed images is so violating.
- [27:57]
Gabriel Mizrahi
This is horrifying. But now. Now you've really gotten me wonder. I didn't even think about, like, do they put a towel down or do you just rock?
- [28:04]
Jordan Harbinger
It's not a clothes seat.
- [28:05]
Gabriel Mizrahi
On one of the seats, it's. I. I don't know why I need to know about this, but I just wonder what people do anyway. What happens when you get out of the saddle? What happens when you have to go up a hill? Are you just. You just pray that no one's behind you? Like, I don't. I don't understand.
- [28:23]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, my gosh. Well, it's your own bike. Not that that really makes it that much better, but I. Well, just maybe you should continue with the letter.
- [28:31]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I don't think people are riding this on lime. On lime bicycles. That's a private bike.
- [28:36]
Jordan Harbinger
City bikes. Can you imagine? Riding a city bike naked is like riding the subway naked, Actually, I'm sure some people have done it. I would never do that. Oh, God, it's giving me the shivers thinking about something like that.
- [28:50]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Apparently, someone. I think we can safely assume a man has been attending naked bike rides worldwide, stalking one girl per ride and taking a Plethora of photos of her reverse image, searching her face and posting the nudes and professional and personal information about her. He has provided enough personal information on all of us for any scary person to find and contact us if they please. He has done this to at least 12 women, including me in both the US and the UK.
- [29:20]
Jordan Harbinger
So to state the obvious here. This is so gross. Super violating. It's also scary and I'm so sorry this happened to you. It's gotta be the weirdest feeling. This person is flying around the world to the US and the to take photos of people riding bikes naked and then exposing them on a website. This is so weird.
- [29:38]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Thinking about this psycho keeping me on his mind for over a decade is beyond disturbing. It's so infuriating too, since the whole point of rides like that is destigmatizing naked bodies participating in body positivity and being silly. I immediately flagged the photos through the website and contacted the website support team demanding that the photos be deleted. I also recruited a handful of my friends to do the same. My photos were taken down within an hour.
- [30:06]
Jordan Harbinger
Great. That's something. Although how weird is that? That this is a revenge porn website?
- [30:11]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Essentially, but they're like, honoring customer requests on a day.
- [30:14]
Jordan Harbinger
They're like, oh, okay, we got a takedown request. No problem. Yeah, let us know if you have any questions. Like, yeah, I have so many questions. Anyway.
- [30:22]
Gabriel Mizrahi
However, the profile of the offending photographer has not been removed, despite my requests, and I doubt any disciplinary action will occur.
- [30:30]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, so just to be clear, the creep posted these photos. He's not writing her saying, hey, I posted these photos of you. Pay me ten grand in Bitcoin and I'll take them down.
- [30:39]
Gabriel Mizrahi
No. Yeah, he's just doing it because it gives him a weird thrill or something.
- [30:43]
Jordan Harbinger
That's worse somehow, though.
- [30:44]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Way worse. So much worse.
- [30:46]
Jordan Harbinger
It's so despicable. Money. I think we can all wrap our heads around. Like, we're not scumbaggy enough to do it, but sextortion, Okay, I understand the concept. Some sick psychological pleasure from exposing women just to mess with them and make them feel violated. I don't get that.
- [31:01]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Very dark.
- [31:02]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, that is. I'm so sor.
- [31:03]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Sorry.
- [31:04]
Jordan Harbinger
That is so extra creepy.
- [31:05]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I'm a librarian and a good friend of mine is in tech, which translates to us being very good at finding things. We've reverse doxxed all of the women that the original poster is trying to humiliate. None of the women live in the same city. We are all spread across the US and the uk and I've reached out to them through their socials, alerting them of the non consensual photos, explaining how to request them to be deleted, encouraging them to demand that the website block this person's IP and if they're comfortable, report the incident to the police. I've successfully made contact with about three of them so far.
- [31:38]
Jordan Harbinger
I love that you're helping other women and sharing tips and resources and I'm sure these other women are grateful for that. As distressing as it is to find
- [31:45]
Gabriel Mizrahi
out something like this, at my friend's and my therapist's encouragement, I printed out screenshots of my own photos, censored them and filed a police report. I don't think this will be enough to achieve justice though. The website doesn't say when these posts were made or provide any information about the person who posted the photos. I now live in the state of Connecticut. Do you have any additional suggestions on how to bring this sicko to justice? Or how to shut down this website that clearly has no oversight or interest in protecting people? Picture me with a Dark Jordan Bat signal as well. Signed, Hoping to get tough because I've officially had enough after being snapped in the buff.
- [32:26]
Jordan Harbinger
Man, what a crazy story. Before we talk about all this, when I was in undergrad at the University of Michigan, there was this thing called the Naked Mile. This is probably 2001 or so. The university warned everyone, university wide emails a ton of times not to participate, but of course a bunch of people did, including me. Before we went out, a friend of mine was like, hey, do you want a mask? And I was like, eh, whatever. And he's like, I have this extra mask. And I was like, all right. I hadn't even thought about it. I am so glad that I did because at some point, I think years later, a lot of us discovered that somebody had created a website. I think it was literally nakedmile.com or
- [33:04]
Gabriel Mizrahi
thenakedmile.com wait, this happened to you?
- [33:07]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, yeah. I believe whoever did it, they were posting some photos and they were selling at the time CD Roms full of higher res photos if memory serves.
- [33:18]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Oh man.
- [33:19]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. So this was similar. And what's weird is it's also the same thing. It's a bunch of like painted extra hairy, some people are overweight, everybody's sort of just, you know, it's a laugh. It's not like sexy, it's a laugh. Yeah. And people are taking photos. This is before camera phones, so like somebody with a camera would stick out and there'd be photos in the Michigan Daily, which is a newspaper. And it would have, you know, they'd be censored, obviously. And it was like, the Naked Mile happens again despite administration's protests. And it was just kind of like, ha, ha, stick it to them. We ran across the quad naked. And people ran across the quad naked all the time. It's college. So this just happened to be the most of them. And yeah, I ran it with a mask. It was a silly fun time. But had I not grabbed a mask at the last minute, I might have ended up in exactly the same situation as our friend here. Because 25 years later, you could probably use Google Image search, which didn't of course exist at that time, throw a photo of everyone from the Naked Mile in there and find that, hey, one of those people is Jordan Harbinger. Now I'm only identifying identifiable by other characteristics that most of you can't, that Google can't quite parse just yet. So all that to say I'm so sorry that you're going through this revenge porn, sextortion, nude leaks is all super upsetting. It must feel very exposing, especially after assuming you're in a safe space. And to just find out all these years later is so unsettling. And I hate that this guy did this to you. If someone had done this to me in the timeline where my friend didn't do a last minute run to spirit Halloween or whatever and grabbed some cheap masks, I probably also would have had a proper freakout. It might even be sweating this decades later. Look, for me it's a little bit like, ah, okay, lol. So what? But I'm in a different position. I can't be fired from my job for something silly like this. I think. And look, this is controversial, Gabe. I don't know what you think it's different for guys. I think sort of there's something different about it. It's still violating. And maybe I should just speak for myself. But. But I don't know, there's something like. If someone's like, I got a naked picture of you, I'd be like, that's your problem. I don't care. But if someone's like, I have a naked picture of this woman and also here's where she works that's just extra weird. If someone's like, he has a podcast and a bunch of you saw me naked. I don't think most of you would care, but yeah, if I worked at a law firm, I wouldn't want my boss and colleagues to see me naked, that's just different. So my heart really does go out to you here. That said, it sounds like you're doing quite a good job of working with the situation, getting creative, like with your friend, to find your way to more information to help warn other victims. That's really impressive and I commend you for it, as per usual. To get a good handle on your legal options here, we reached out to attorney and friend of the show Corbin Payne, And the first thing Corbin said was the person who did this is a piece of crap, full stop. Goes without saying, we totally concur. What would possess a person to go to a naked bike ride, take photos and then post them after doxxing them? It's just for money and a creepy power trip. I mean, they're probably not earning anything from this. This person is mentally unwell and deserves to be put in prison for this kind of activity. So let's talk about the law here for a second. Corbyn said that what this guy has done, it likely violates revenge porn laws and or cyber stalking laws that are on the books in many jurisdictions. Now, the details of the law, that obviously varies jurisdiction to jurisdiction depends on the state and the country. But Corbyn said the general framework of these laws is it's a crime to take or create photos or videos of a person's unclothed intimate area. That's Tennessee's legal language where Corbyn practices, which the victim would find embarrassing or offensive, two, disseminate such material without the effective consent of the victim, and or three, use the material to harass, intimidate or blackmail the victim. So I am very happy you filed a police report. I know it's not easy. I know a lot of people would rather not deal with the exposure and embarrassment involved, but that was absolutely the right thing to do. And I don't know how long it's been since you filed the report, but I sincerely hope the police look into it and act if possible. Now, Corbyn said there are a couple of tricky facts in your letter that might pose some complications. The first thing is that there are numerous jurisdictions involved here. There's Pennsylvania, where the photos were taken. There's Connecticut, where you live. Now, there's the uk, where it sounds like the perp might live, or at least where he took some of the photos for some of these and where he might have done some of the publishing of the photos. There's also whatever state or country where he actually lives, where he might have hosted and published the files that could also be in a separate place or where the servers storing the material are located. All that stuff could be in separate countries even. And then there's the US Federal government, which governs the use of the wires and the Internet and interstate commerce. So it is complicated. It's sort of a Frankenstein's monster of competing jurisdictions. On the flip side, that also means that there are multiple places you could contact about bringing charges. If one jurisdiction's like, eh, we're not going to pursue this, another one might. The bad news is that these jurisdictions have a ready made excuse to push off the responsibility for acting onto another jurisdiction. And sadly that happens all the time. But then, another good thing, the FBI has jurisdiction over cyberstalking, and that is not a small agency. Corbyn said. They've got the know how and the resources to take on this sort of crime. The second tricky fact is the fact that you were part of a public event. Corbyn explained to us that people have a right to not be photographed, let's say when they're in a place or engaging in an activity where they might have a reasonable expectation of privacy. So somebody running the Boston Marathon, they probably can't fight the fact that their photo crossing the finish line is getting uploaded to Instagram or published in the Boston Herald or whatever. But some somebody who's using a private changing room in a clothing store, they obviously have a right to not be photographed or recorded while they're in there.
- [39:13]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So that makes a naked bike ride a very interesting setting, legally speaking.
- [39:18]
Jordan Harbinger
Very. And I know people listening. I was waiting for people listening to just be like, well, wait a minute, she was in public naked. That's gotta be a thing. Yeah. Corbin said a naked bike ride might qualify as a public event where there is not much expectation of privacy. But we assume these events have strict rules against photography. They might not be fully open to the public. Maybe they are. Or maybe they take place in a park tucked away somewhere, as opposed to cycling down Broadway in Manhattan for all the world to see. And if that's the case, Corbyn said you might have participated in an event where you effectively consented to people seeing you nude, but you did not consent to being photographed, especially so extensively. In other words, the context suggests that people could and would see you without clothes on, but that everybody's participation would be sufficiently private that no photos would be taken or shared.
- [40:06]
Gabriel Mizrahi
But even if it turns out that you had no reasonable expectation of privacy and this was a fully public event, then Corbin said that you still have a right to not be harassed with these photos. So in Corbin's experience, this perp taking a photo and possessing it, there's a world where it might not have been illegal, but using it to harass you online and perhaps encourage other people to find you and contact you, and all of that, all of that probably is illegal.
- [40:32]
Jordan Harbinger
So what's the upshot of all this? The upshot is most states and the federal government make revenge porn and cyberstalking a crime. So Corbyn said you could report all this to law enforcement. They could investigate, they can make arrests, they can charge the perpetrator with a crime, they can prosecute the perp, seek jail time or other punishments. And most states in the federal government also give a victim the ability to privately sue anyone who's done this to them.
- [40:55]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Also, Corbyn said that in order to get law enforcement interested, the fact that there are numerous victims here, that does help, help. And as he always advises, the more you can bring law enforcement, you know, a binder of evidence that basically ties a bow on the case for them. In other words, they don't have to expend a ton of resources investigating this, pursuing this, the more likely it is that they'll act this kind of assist with, you know, busy, jaded, overwhelmed investigators. That really does go a long way. It sounds like you and your friend have already taken some great steps in that direction. Corbin said that that's very helpful. And if you can gather any more evidence and organize it into an easily digestible format like one hu binder and, or, you know, a Google folder that's easily searchable, where they can read through the files very easily. He said, definitely do that.
- [41:40]
Jordan Harbinger
Another interesting option Corbyn shared. He said you could probably pursue something called a John Doe or a Jane Doe petition. A John Doe Jane Doe petition is a lawsuit filed against an as yet unknown person. Corbyn said that would give your attorney the ability to issue subpoenas and force some of the companies and other actors involved in all this to divulge even more information than you have now. And then, if you discover the identity of the perpetrator, you can name him and sue him for what he did to you, and you can also turn that information over to the police. It's kind of an amazing, creative solution in a case like this.
- [42:12]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I wonder if that would also somehow compromise or take down this creepy website that is hosting all this material. I don't know, maybe having to comply with a bunch of subpoenas or court orders or whatever will eventually make the owners of this website, assuming that these are not people living in a bungalow in the middle of the Philippines using bootleg satellite WI fi off the map or something. But, you know, if they operate in the US or the uk, it might eventually make them go, this is way too much of a headache. This is scary, stressful, it's expensive. So we're just going to shut this thing down.
- [42:41]
Jordan Harbinger
Same here. But it also might take multiple cases like this to make the website owners do that. I mean, obviously they're into whatever weird fetish this is as well. Probably Corbin's preference, for your sake, is that law enforcement leads on this. He said that's a lot cheaper. You won't have to pursue this creep out of pocket. But then law enforcement gets to decide which cases it takes and which cases it doesn't take. In a private lawsuit, that's often an investment of time and money, of course. But if there are numerous victims here, Corbyn said you could come together and pool your resources to pursue this guy. Also, just so you know, in US courts, there are privacy protections afforded to victims of these kinds of crimes. So if your case ever ends up in one, some of these unredacted photos might need to be introduced into the trial in order to establish that these photos meet the standards for cyber stalking or revenge porn. But Corbyn said they will be protected from being disseminated publicly. And the victims and plaintiffs might even be able to keep their names private, at least as far as the general public is concerned. But the guy who did this, if he's ever exposed, Corbyn said that he won't enjoy these same privacy rights. Whatever said about him in court can be published. His identity might be revealed. All of his friends, family, colleagues, they can learn exactly who this guy is in private. So in addition to literal justice, there might be some poetic justice on offer here as well.
- [43:57]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Just another idea here. If you wanted to, you could try to take this to a journalist and tell them your story. Especially if law enforcement is not responsive, they're not going to look into this. Revenge porn and sextortion. I think we all know these are not exactly new topics in our society, sadly. So that alone might not be enough to grab a reporter's interest. But I have to say, hearing your story and the fact that this all happened at a naked bike ride, which is a fascinating cultural phenomenon, it's a grabby hook. It's also an interesting wrinkle in all of this. Like we were saying, legally speaking, I do wonder if that might get a Journalist's attention. Jordan I'm just picturing the opening of an article about this terrible thing that went down like one sunny summer day. Well, we don't know if it was summer. In your mind, it might have been winter. I don't know why I'm going to guess it was summer. But, but like one sunny summer day, you know, so and so stripped down in Fairmont park and climbed on her. Let's hope it wasn't a city bike, maybe a beach cruiser, you know, she and over a thousand other people pedaled around the city in the buff for over four hours. You know, fun body positivity, blah, blah, blah. Then 10 years later, she got a message from a stranger on LinkedIn. Just thought you'd want to know, said the guy. There are photos of you on a porn site. I mean, that's a grabby opening.
- [45:10]
Jordan Harbinger
I'm reading the rest of that article and I can see that showing up in many publications, quality publications that a lot of people would see and be outraged by. So this is a New York Times piece waiting, or at least a Philly Times piece waiting to happen.
- [45:25]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Whether you want your name attached to this, whether you want to tell your story publicly, totally up to you. I would understand if you didn't. But I wonder if that would help put some pressure on law enforcement and or just draw attention to this website that I hope they would mention in the piece that is hosting all of this stuff. Perhaps that would bring them a ton of negative publicity or more scrutiny. So just something to consider.
- [45:43]
Jordan Harbinger
I like it. I also feel like a crime reporting reporter or a culture reporter would really respond to a pitch like this. She could also ask to remain anonymous, use a fake name if she wanted to. They often do that with stories about topics like this.
- [45:55]
Gabriel Mizrahi
By the way, we also found a bunch of resources that might be really helpful to you right now. There's the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. There's an organization called Without My Consent. There's something called the Crash Override Network. There's the national center for Victims of Crime. There's one called My Image, My Choice. There's so many, many. All of these organizations offer some mix of help guides, help lines, referrals to attorneys and counselors, guides for removing images from the Internet, emotional support. So we're going to link to all of these organizations in the show notes for you. It's interesting though, there don't seem to be many prominent national public support groups for what you have been through specifically, but now that you're in touch with all of these Other victims. I do wonder if maybe you can start a little informal support group of your own. Maybe you. You invite these other women to a weekly or monthly, you know, zoom call. You can offer to talk whenever they want. You guys can share stories, share resources. I think you're already doing this, but you could formalize this a little more if you want. I have to assume that that would be a huge help to everybody affected by this guy and it might be one more positive thing that comes out of this really terrible situation.
- [47:01]
Jordan Harbinger
I like that idea a lot. As for Dark Jordan ideas, I feel like hackers and dark web people, I know very little about this, but I feel like they might be able to grab the server logs of the website that's hosting these images. They might be able to find IP addresses of people who logged in and possibly link that to physical addresses. I am quite sure that that's illegal, so please be super careful here. Another idea, a good hacker could also just take the website down. They could DDoS the website, which is like basically denying access to it by screwing with it in certain ways that are technical that you don't care about. They could also destroy all the files. They could make them very difficult to recover. Again, certainly illegal, but maybe some friendly vigilante hacker living in, I don't know, Belize or something would want to give you guys a hand. A lot of hackers help with doxing child predators. This is sort of adjacent to that. As always, proceed cautiously. This is coming from me, not Corbin. Obviously these pitches from Dark Jordan are for entertainment purposes only and should never actually be done. But I'm very sorry this is happening to you, friend. It's a weird feeling. It sucks. But you do have some avenues to pursue here and I hope you explore them. I would love nothing more than to see this creep and this gross website get their comeuppance in some form. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what won't follow you for years? The amazing but short lived deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. Show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Zazzle. It's fun to say Jaden's seventh birthday is coming up. Jen has once again turned a kid's party into a fully branded experience. She went to Zazzle for custom goodie bag bags, goody bag tags, and they came out so good, she immediately started making things for everybody else. Her brother got a new puppy and he's impossible to shop for because he already has everything. So. So she put the puppy's face on custom towels. I thought that sounded insane. Whatever. Then they arrived. They actually look really good. She also made a custom mug for grandpa with our kids pictures on them which brought tears to his eyes. Which is kind of funny because, like, it's a mug, but it's got your grandkids on it. That's the appeal of Zazzle. Besides saying the name, which is fun in itself, you can take almost any idea, an inside joke, a pet photo, a party theme, a family memory. Turn it into something people actually want to keep. Invitations, favors, signs, thank you cards, gifts. It's all customizable. You don't need to be a designer. Just pick the product, choose or create a design, add your details, and Zazzle handles the rest. It makes you look incredibly thoughtful with way less effort than people will assume right now. Save 25% on your first order at zazzle.com that's 25% savings on your first order at zazzlez.com Go make something zamazing zazzle.com this episode is also sponsored by Concierge MD I've gotten way more interested in preventative health as I've gotten older because I don't want to wait until something's seriously wrong before paying attention to it. I see other people do that doesn't look good. Most healthcare is basically built around fixing problems after the fact. Concierge MD is one of the few services that I've used that actually focuses on optimization before things go sideways. What sold me is how thorough they are. Most doctors, they run the same standard labs. They give you seven rush minutes, they send you on your way with eh, it looks fine. Meanwhile, you're exhausted, your recovery sucks, your sleep is inconsistent, your focus is all over the place. With Concierge md, they actually take the time to look deeper. Hormones, recovery, longevity, sleep energy. The stuff that directly impacts how you perform every single day. And it's real physician LED care. It's not a sketchy wellness trend or an AI app that's pretending to be a doctor. I love how convenient it is. They work around your schedule. Everything's connected under one roof. You can do blood draws at your house. I just feel more on top of my game since working with them. More energy, better focus, better sleep. For me, that just translates directly into work, family, life, everything. Go to conciergemd.com, use code jordan for 20% off all services, including memberships. Also, in case y' all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes. For example, the GTA stuff that was in there, the voiceover stuff, a lot of travel story stuff and discussions going on over there in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Now back to Feedback Friday okay, what's next?
- [51:03]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 31 year old father of two, ages five and two, and my oldest will be starting kindergarten this fall. She's always been academically and emotionally way ahead of her peers, and we've decided to send her to a private school in our area because we believe it will provide a better education than our local public school. The complication is that it's a Christian school and I identify as agnostic and probably lean atheist. I was raised in a very Christian household and was deeply involved in my faith until college when I began questioning things and eventually lost my belief. My wife also has a complicated relationship with Christianity. She was forced into a Christian high school by her parents and had a negative experience because she fell into the wrong crowd. Although she's become more open to faith again in recent years, we've recently started letting our daughter attend Sunday school with my parents to get some exposure to Christianity. She really enjoys it, but she's also begun repeating things that she's learning there about God, Heaven, and why we're here. When she says these things, I find myself feeling uncomfortable in a way that's difficult to explain. I remember finding comfort in those same ideas when I was younger, and I still appreciate many of the moral teachings in Christianity. What bothers me is the certainty with which some religious claims are presented, especially when they directly contradict ideas that I believe should be approached through evidence and science. My wife and I want our children to be exposed to different belief systems and ultimately decide for themselves what they believe. If they grow up Christian, that's fine. If they don't, that's fine too. More than anything, I want them to be curious, ask questions, think critically, and feel comfortable examining what they're taught rather than simply accepting it.
- [52:50]
Jordan Harbinger
Great. I love that. It sounds like a very balanced stance to me.
- [52:53]
Gabriel Mizrahi
My concern is that a Christian school may not always encourage that kind of questioning, particularly around matters of faith. At the same time, I don't want to undermine their teachers or create confusion by telling them that some of what they're learning isn't true. How do you raise children to think critically about religion without pushing them toward or away from any particular belief? At what age do those conversations begin? How can I create an environment where my kids respect what they're being taught at school while also feeling free to come home, ask questions, and explore different perspectives. Signed, balancing the gospel without getting hostile. So I can give my kids the right picture without undermining Scripture.
- [53:35]
Jordan Harbinger
Man, such great questions. Like I said, I really love your stance here. You're not saying, how do I undermine the teachers at school and make sure my kids believe what I believe? Believe? You're asking basically, how do I help them become people who can appreciate multiple traditions and who can think for themselves? One of the healthiest things parents can do, I think, is separate what they want their children to think from how they want them to think. The first thing tends to produce conformity, orthodoxy, ideology. The second produces insight, individuation, wisdom. Basically, it also produces tools for questioning, tools for learning that is just a huge asset in life.
- [54:11]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Plus the intellectual flexibility to engage with multiple ideas, make room for multiple truths. It's a great quality.
- [54:18]
Jordan Harbinger
Yes. All of that is awesome. And I respect that stance even more. Given your own history, your wife's history, it sounds very respectful to me. So this is interesting because your oldest is five. That's still pretty young. She isn't quite ready for deep, nuanced philosophical debates. And there's an argument to be made that a child should feel that they can basically trust they're teachers. On the other hand, she's academically and emotionally way ahead of her peers, so maybe she has more capacity for these chats than most five year olds. So I don't know if there's one right answer about what age to start having these conversations. I think it depends on the child, their ability to engage, their level of curiosity, the specific ideas they're bringing home, all that. So rather than worry about the right age, what I would do is I would make it a point to meet your kids with the same openness and curiosity that you want to cultivate in them and just ask them questions like, if your daughter comes home and says, Today, Ms. Hofstadter taught us that the universe is 10,000 years old. That's a random example. I have no idea if her school is that kind of school. But you get my point. You could say, well, no, that's wrong. It's 14 billion years old and Ms. Hofstadter's a nut. Don't listen to anything she says, which would be tempting. Or you could say, interesting. How do you think she knows that? And see what your daughter says. Maybe she's like, oh, she read it in the Bible and the Bible said it. Then maybe you say, okay, interesting. The Bible has a lot of ideas about the world. What do you think? And see if she wants to reflect on that, that maybe she doesn't. If she does, I would keep asking questions. I would keep inviting her subtly to keep interrogating. You could say stuff like, a lot of people believe in the Bible. It's a powerful book. Other people believe in other books. Did you know that? Or if your daughter shows an interest in this topic, you could say, you know what's cool? Some people believe the universe is 10,000 years old. That's pretty old. But other people, scientists, for example, they believe the universe is actually billions of years old. Isn't that crazy? Or if your daughter's like, noah saved all the animals on a big boat and there was a flood, instead of being like, well, actually, you could say, yeah, that's something that many Christians believe. What do you like about that idea? Or I wonder what people in other religions believe. You get the idea here. You're not correcting. Not explicitly, anyway. You're just asking. You're inviting reflection. You're expanding conversation instead of shutting it down. Gabe, obviously they sent their kids to a religious school because they love a lot of what religion provides, right? So you don't want to start undermining every little thing because you're going to inadvertently undermine all the good stuff about religion, which is why you picked the school in the first place.
- [56:47]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Actually, the main reason they seem to have picked the school is that they want a more challenging, supportive environment for their kid, and this is the one in their neighborhood. But you bring up a really good point, which is if the values and the curricula of the school are wildly misaligned with what he and his wife believe and want to cultivate in their children, then it's an interesting question. At what point do you consider maybe sending your child to another school so that you don't have this dissonance? If this is really such an issue philosophically, but I think your approach is basically exactly spot on. And also, he doesn't have to have all of the answers for her. I think that's also a really important quality to model for his children as well.
- [57:24]
Jordan Harbinger
Totally. If he's like, hmm, interesting, I actually don't know how trees evolved on Earth. That'd be a cool thing to look up. I think that just says a lot.
- [57:32]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I know one of his concerns is that he might create some confusion for his kids. And I get that. That's thoughtful of him. But I also don't know if confusion is the worst thing in the world, if he can model for them the best kind of confusion, you know, which is openness, curiosity, flexibility, the willingness to admit when he doesn't know something. And actually, I'm not even sure that's really even confusion. Confusion is maybe believing multiple things that just don't fit together, or feeling like you need to land on one perfect explanation for how the world works in order to feel okay and not being able to find it. What he would be creating here ideally is just a wider frame of reference, you know, plasticity, an appreciation for multiple points of view. And I think that's actually maybe for a 5 year old at times that could be confusing and that's something to keep an eye on. But especially as his children get older, I don't think that's confusion. I think that's actually maybe just broader awareness for sure.
- [58:25]
Jordan Harbinger
Which, by the way, that's also the beginning of true learning. So in a way, he'd actually be reducing confusion, especially as his kids get older.
- [58:32]
Gabriel Mizrahi
There's something more dangerous than confusion, and that's absolute certainty.
- [58:37]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, yeah. I mean, look, y' all know my beliefs about religion and things like that, but I also think there's so many amazing benefits to religious education and belief and things like that. I barely ever talk about that on the show, much to the chagrin of my religious listeners, so you guys got me on that one. Gabe, I was watching probably Instagram or Reddit the other day, as we all know, the pinnacle of high culture and education, but there was a clip of some guys from a, I want to say, Christian nationalist white supremacist movement called, I think, Patriot Front. And it's a bunch of dumbass children wearing masks harassing Jewish people and other people on a subway, basically. And they were saying like, truly ignorant stuff that any actual Christian would be like, like, that's not how this works at all. That's not accurate at all. You guys are a bunch of kooks. I don't think religious people are generally like this, of course. Right. These are extremists. But one thing they had was this absolute certainty that whatever they were doing was right and correct. And that whatever conspiracy theory crap they had read on the Internet that they had been talking about at their, I don't know, extremist basement church somewhere was the truth and everybody else was wrong. And I thought to myself, like, man, this is the most toxic thing ever. You get people who are confused and don't understand something. They're far less dangerous than these people who are like, we need to get all of the Jews out of the country and all the people of color out of the country because they're polluting our bloodline. I mean, they believe this stuff, right? That's why they're taking those actions. And it's one of the grossest, most toxic things I've ever seen. So you're absolutely right. There's something way more dangerous than confusion, and that is the absolute certainty that you referred to. So cultivating that quality in his kids, that's the crux of critical thinking. So yeah, I'm with you. He needs to be thoughtful and basically respectful and keep his kids capacity for this stuff in mind. But a little healthy confusion, it's just not the worst thing in the world for a kid to feel.
- [60:32]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So when your daughter talks about certain ideas, maybe you could also say, you know, huh, interesting. I've wondered about that too. Or I don't know, I'm still figuring out what I believe about that. You know, here's an idea. There's another idea. I'm not quite sure where I land. Or, or you could say different people have different answers. Maybe we should google it and find out. You wanna do that stuff like that?
- [60:50]
Jordan Harbinger
I have a strong hunch that people who are comfortable saying, I don't know, they must end up raising children who are more confident thinkers. If you know what you believe and you just make sure your kids believe that same stuff too, how do they build that muscle? I would also proactively seek out different experiences, different cultures, different traditions, and encourage your kids to really engage with them. Maybe that means seeking out friends who are different from them. Maybe that means reading books and watching movies from other countries. Maybe that means traveling as a family to places with different religions, different values, different cosmologies. Whatever it is, maybe it means saying to your kids, here are the questions religion's trying to answer and here are the questions science is trying to answer. There are different ways of trying to understand these big questions. How cool is that? And then you can talk about all this as a family and using those experiences and references to encourage your kids curiosity. But about different schools of thought, different worldviews. I think all of that will create this environment that you want where your kids feel comfortable and even excited to come home and talk about ideas and ask you their questions. Like I said, as they get older, these conversations can become more nuanced. You can share some of your own history with religion, you can engage with them in a more specific way. You can tell them you feel one way, but they're allowed to feel A different way, as long as you guys really listen into your homework, but also just to put you at ease a little bit. I don't know if it's the worst thing for a five year old to believe that Noah built an ark and saved all the animals 4,000 years ago. Ten years later, okay, maybe they should have some different ideas in mind, balance those things out. I say this to take a little pressure off. Your kids are still really young. Yes, these influences matter, and you want to make sure they're aligned with your values. But I don't know if you need to constantly be fighting Ms. Hofstadter's kindergarten indoctrination campaign that you are paying for. Send them to the school. I just don't think. I don't know if this should be priority numero uno for you guys right now.
- [62:42]
Gabriel Mizrahi
That's a good point. And maybe he also needs to separate being appropriately skeptical from being respectful to these teachers. You know, maybe he privately encourages his daughter to ask good questions and think for herself. But he also tells her, listen, when your teacher teaches you something, don't be the kid who raises her hand first thing and says, well, actually, I read on Google that, or my dad told me, or she can still be a nice student to have in class and still keep her own counsel. And maybe that's yet another skill that he can pass down.
- [63:08]
Jordan Harbinger
I think it takes a lot of courage and a lot of humility to walk this line with your kids. And I love that you want to get this right, but so much of combating ideology is about what you don't do. In other words, how you avoid replacing one ideology with another, which even hardcore skeptics and atheists can do. No one's immune. There are secular religions all around us, so keep an eye on that, too. You sound like a great parent. I'm sure your kids are going to be solid thinkers. Keep up the great work and good luck. By the way, you can reach us Friday@jordanharbinger.com Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're wondering how much to cater to an unstable, overly demanding parent, you just found out your spouse has been hiding tens of thousands of dollars in debt from you, or you're struggling to recover from being sextorted by someone in your own family. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday@jordanharbinger.com we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right. You know what else? Ms. Hofstadter wants you to believe the holy gospel of the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. If you travel a lot, especially internationally, you know the flight itself can make or break the whole trip. On a long haul flight, if you're uncomfortable, if you can't sleep or you can't settle in, you feel it not only during the flight, but after you land too. That's what makes Lufthansa Allegris stand out. It's designed around how people actually travel. Now with a range of options. On Lufthansa Allegris, they have five different business class seat options for you to choose from. There's the business suite if you want a more private elevated space with higher walls and doors that close. The privacy seat gives you a quarter window side retreat away from the aisle. The extra long bed is more than 7ft long, which is huge if real sleep matters to you. The extra space seat gives you more room to work, eat or just spread out and relax. And the classic seat still delivers comfort, storage and direct aisle access in a practical ergonomic design. That's the appeal. It's not premium just for sake of looking premium. Lufthansa Allegris is thoughtful, functional and built to make long haul travel feel better. Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris all it takes is a yes. Limited availability on select routes. More routes coming soon. Not every sale happens at the register before AT&T business Wireless. Checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses his screen. What people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sail or two.
- [65:35]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Sometimes I do miss the bonding time. Sometimes AT&T business Wireless Connecting Changes Everything
- [65:43]
Jordan Harbinger
if you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals and discounts are searchable and clickable on the website@jordanharbinger.com deals and if they don't work or you can't find something, something's not going well for you. Email us jordanordanharbinger.com we're happy to troubleshoot and dig up codes for you because it's that Important that you support those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday. Okay, now for the recommendation of the week.
- [66:16]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I am addicted to Litville. So I've been looking for some good phone accessories for a while now, especially a good phone mount for a car or bicycle, because I'm constantly hopping on and off these shared bicycles or in and out of rental cars while I'm traveling. But, you know, most phone mounts are really annoying and complicated. You have to, like, mount and tighten them and then untighten them, and they're bulky and it's just kind of a headache. And then a friend of mine told me about this company called Peak Design. So I know I am very late to this party. This is a pretty big company, and they seem to have a very passionate, passionate following. But Peak Design, if you're not familiar, it's a gear and accessories company that builds camera gear, tripods, backpacks, phone cases, all sorts of stuff to make your life easier. But my favorite thing about this company is that they have this integrated ecosystem of phone cases and magnetic mounts. So basically, you can get a magnetic case for your phone. They make it for iPhone, Android, every model. They have a huge range. And then onto that magnetic case, you can attach a wallet. Wallet, you can attach a universal bar mount for your bike or car, a tripod, a charging stand, all kinds of cool stuff. So the products work together seamlessly. And you can customize all of those products. Colors and textures and additional features, all great. I just started using the phone ecosystem products. They are already a game changer. They also offer luggage and packing cubes and camera gear and backpacks and all kinds of stuff. I have not tried any of those yet, but they look great. Great. I also bought a few of these for my dad for his birthday, and he loved them, and they make for great gifts. This company seems really awesome. They seem to be guided by really solid values. They're big on thoughtful engineering, durability, modularity. They seem to be pretty obsessed with making people's lives easier. The products are simple. They look great. They use recycled materials extensively. They have a lifetime warranty on their products, and they helped launch the climate neutral Certification initiative, which encourages companies to measure and reduce their carbon emissions, which I always appreciate. Peak Design, I'm a big fan of these guys. We're gonna link to them in the show notes.
- [68:15]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I actually own a bunch of camera stuff from Peak Design. It's. It's known as one of the best brands for camera mounts and backpacks and stuff like that. It's really, really Solid. Everything they make is just really, really nice, from luggage to, you know, DSLR camera clip that holds onto the strap of your backpack. They have a big flagship showroom in San Francisco. I think they might even be an SF brand. It's kind of one of those companies that seems sort of climate neutral hippie. Everything's made well, everything's really nice and like, good customer support. It's one of those brands that I think associated with sf. And yeah, I highly recommend them if you find anything there. I feel like they have guarantees on everything. Lifetime warranties that are easy, right? They're not like, oh, it looks like you misused this. We're gonna try and weasel out of it. They're just like, all right, this didn't work well for you. Here's another one of the fix it for you. So yeah, I can jump on the back of that recommendation as well. Alright, next up.
- [69:09]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 50 years old and until recently I was dating a woman who is 57 for four months. The relationship was amazing. There was a lot of drinking, mostly fun, but I started seeing some patterns that I didn't like. A few drinks were fun, but she would get to a point where she couldn't stop and would get out of control. I let a lot slide, but that became harder as it happened more often and the problems got worse. I tried to get her to chill, but it never worked. And a few times I got frustrated and sucked into arguing and said some things too. One night we went out to a bar. There was some drama. She was getting into other people's business. Another pattern of hers. Threw a fork at one guy to tell him to sit down, then started yelling at me, saying I was flirting with a friend's girlfriend, which is not true at all.
- [69:59]
Jordan Harbinger
I can just see this evening. What a disaster.
- [70:02]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I heard that fork hit the floor. I don't know about you.
- [70:05]
Jordan Harbinger
Totally gasps and oohs from a bunch of people. It just sounds like a nightmare. I would be so embarrassed by that. I feel my face turning red in solidarity.
- [70:14]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I tried to tell her that and asked her to stop. Told her I only want to be with her, forget about anyone else here and just sit with me. She yelled at me, saying I couldn't tell her what to do and I shouldn't tell her to stop.
- [70:26]
Jordan Harbinger
Ugh.
- [70:27]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Instead of arguing, I got up and left to remove myself from the situation. She was mad about that.
- [70:32]
Jordan Harbinger
I bet you weren't playing along anymore.
- [70:34]
Gabriel Mizrahi
There were some angry texts from both of us after that, but I offered to go to her house to smooth things over and she said okay. I waited for two hours ready to leave, but she never got back to me because she stayed at the bar. That led to more angry texts and we didn't talk for a week or so. We ended up getting back together, but this seemed to open the door to her feeling okay to yell at me. Me. A couple months later, I let her use my credit card for a purchase and found out she used it for other things without telling me. It wasn't a lot of money, but it was more about the principle of being concerned that my card was misused.
- [71:10]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, that is not okay at all.
- [71:12]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I confronted her and she got mad that I was accusing her of stealing from me.
- [71:16]
Jordan Harbinger
How dare you accuse me of doing what I obviously did what any reasonable person would assume under the circumstances. This is so weird. Weird?
- [71:24]
Gabriel Mizrahi
She said that it was a mistake, that she grabbed the wrong card by accident.
- [71:28]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh yeah. Uh huh. Don't you hate when you swipe the Visa? You never signed up for six times at various cvss over a three day period. This makes no sense.
- [71:36]
Gabriel Mizrahi
We had gone out the night before and were still feeling the effects when I confronted her. I should have waited to bring it up. My heart says that there's no way she would do that intentionally, but my head says how could someone use the wrong card more than once when she only had it for a few days? Uh, yeah. Again, we didn't talk for a couple of weeks, but got back together. Then last weekend we went to a local bar close to my house. It was meant to be an early night, but when I tried to get her to go home, she kept saying, one more beer. Another pattern. At one point, a guy we know from the local bars walked in and she started texting a girl he's seeing, telling her that he was there. They have an on again, off again situation. My girlfriend knows that it's unstable and she decided to get involved. I asked her why she won't stay out of other people's business. She was not doing this from a good place. She said a lot of stuff behind this woman's back. It just created drama and it was like she enjoyed it.
- [72:33]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh dude. Huge red flag. I mean, apart from the uncontrollable drinking, of course. Huge. This is so childish and extremely concerning. Ugh, no thank you.
- [72:45]
Gabriel Mizrahi
At midnight, Last call. Instead of going home, she decided we were taking an Uber to the city 20 minutes away to go to a dance club. The people at the bar told her that she'd missed last Call there too, but she wouldn't listen. I told her I didn't want to go and she said she would go without me. I couldn't let that happen because she was very drunk. So I went.
- [73:05]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, boy.
- [73:06]
Gabriel Mizrahi
It was a disaster.
- [73:08]
Jordan Harbinger
Surprise. Shockingly, it didn't go well. Oh my God, dude.
- [73:13]
Gabriel Mizrahi
She started yelling at me about politics and the Uber. Then she started yelling about money. She thinks I have way more money than I do and seems to be resentful about it.
- [73:22]
Jordan Harbinger
Huh.
- [73:22]
Gabriel Mizrahi
But not too resentful to swipe your credit card at Duane Reed over and over again.
- [73:26]
Jordan Harbinger
Hey, it's like you don't spend all your money on alcohol. What the hell, man? That's not fair. She's terrible.
- [73:31]
Gabriel Mizrahi
When we got to the club, the bartender said we missed last call. She argued with him and ended up giving him $20 for two Michelob Ultra. I said, let's just get some food or go home. But she insisted on going to another club, which of course would be the same situation. There was a line when we got there. She walked right past it and into the club and a bouncer pulled her out. She started arguing with him and the doorman. I tried to get her to leave again, but she made us wait in line. The doors closed for the night before we got in and she started arguing with the doorman again.
- [74:04]
Jordan Harbinger
My God, what a fun night out. Picking fights with people in various locations, bouncers. You're going to get punched in the face because of her at some point as well. And this woman is. I mean, we don't know what her story is, but she's obviously in a lot of pain. I guess I feel kind of bad for her. She obviously has a problem with alcohol, but she's creating so much unnecessary conflict.
- [74:25]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Dude, this is something I would expect from like a 19 year old girl. She's. What did he say? 57.
- [74:32]
Jordan Harbinger
She's 57 years old.
- [74:33]
Gabriel Mizrahi
This is a 57 year old woman who wants to go to various clubs and is picking fights with dormant. Like, this is bad. This is a sad situation.
- [74:41]
Jordan Harbinger
Ridiculous.
- [74:42]
Gabriel Mizrahi
So he goes on, after finally leaving. I told her this was not cool, not fun. That she's more interested in running around drinking than spending time with me. And I don't know if I could do this anymore.
- [74:53]
Jordan Harbinger
Good. Yeah, good for you.
- [74:54]
Gabriel Mizrahi
It turned into an argument.
- [74:57]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, you don't say.
- [74:58]
Gabriel Mizrahi
She started saying some mean stuff to me, saying I'm insecure and controlling and brought up my ex, that I want a submissive girlfriend. Nasty stuff. That was not true at all. Again, I Should have waited to address it when we were sober. But at this point I was just so tired and frustrated and I ended up saying things I wish I could take back too. We haven't spoken since. There were other issues along the way as well. One night she was at the restaurant bar for a while. I took my 16 year old daughter for dinner there and my girlfriend sat with us. This is the first person I've dated who I've let even meet my kids. Kids. It was nice at first, but then she started yelling at me about politics. This was disturbing because my daughter saw arguments between me and my ex wife and our home has been peaceful for eight years since then. Another night, the bar was full and someone bumped into her. Kind of expected nothing intentional. On our way out, she ran back in and kicked the guy, which is not cool. I am too old and not big enough to get into a bar fight.
- [76:00]
Jordan Harbinger
You know what I said? You're gonna get punched in the face because of her. This almost happened right there. So she's just ca. Casually assaulting people now, huh? Cool. I am so done with this gal. I'm sorry. It's sad. She needs help, but she's just. She's a mess, dude.
- [76:13]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And recently a close friend of hers got really sick and died. She started doubling down on the drinking to deal with it.
- [76:20]
Jordan Harbinger
Come on. Am I gonna have to feel sorry for her again? Don't do that.
- [76:24]
Gabriel Mizrahi
You don't have to. But I think we're getting a picture of how this person.
- [76:26]
Jordan Harbinger
I like some clean black and white thinking. Come on, man. I don't like nuance. It's hard.
- [76:31]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I told her that that will make things worse, that she should lean on me instead of. When I was going through my divorce, I didn't drink for two years to keep a clear head and that's what she needs to do. Her response was that it's her vice and how she copes.
- [76:45]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, nice reframe there. It's not an addiction, it's just a vice and it's my coping mechanism. Yeah, maybe your coping mechanism is gonna get us killed or arrested. No thank you.
- [76:55]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Imagine being like, I'm not addicted to cocaine. This is just, you know, my support blow. You need to back off.
- [77:00]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I'm sad and this helps. So she's massively in denial and needs to get worse. She gets better, I guess.
- [77:08]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Then she would get drunk at home alone, ignore my calls and start texting and calling at all hours of the night on work days, wanting me to go over if I missed messages because I was sleeping, I would wake up to fuck you. Nice boyfriend. You should be here when I need you. That type of thing.
- [77:24]
Jordan Harbinger
So literally insane. Okay, pass.
- [77:27]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Finally, after a long night of drinking, things ended between us. We were together for 10 months. This has been really hard because I really love her. Sober, she's the sweetest, kindest person I've ever been with. There's nobody else I'd want to be with.
- [77:43]
Jordan Harbinger
Honestly, that doesn't excuse anything. That is super sad and definitely what you should probably say at her intervention.
- [77:50]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Yeah, let's come back to this. This part of the letter, it's very, very interesting. My daughters love her too. My 19 year old said it was like having a mom around again. But she also said she's never in her life seen me drink the way I have since being with her. She said that all their lives I've been teaching them about health and fitness, diet and exercise, and suddenly I was at the bar and eating out three to four times a week. I did that because that's where my girlfriend was and I wanted to spend time with her.
- [78:19]
Jordan Harbinger
Wow. I kind of love that your daughter said that to you. Kudos to her, man.
- [78:22]
Gabriel Mizrahi
But I can't blame my girlfriend for that. I need to own my part. I should have drawn clear boundaries. I ignored red flags and I probably enabled her along the way.
- [78:32]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I agree. I really appreciate that honesty.
- [78:36]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I am disappointed and angry at myself for not handling the situation better. I could have ended the relationship in a more mature way rather than with a drunken argument. I could have done it without so much regret and without giving her ammunition to point the finger at me.
- [78:50]
Jordan Harbinger
Fair enough. But I'm getting the sense that she would always have pointed the finger at you, no matter what.
- [78:56]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I'm also getting the sense that he's putting so much thought into how he positions things with her and when he breaks up with her and how he communicates. And she's just like letting it rip whenever she gets upset. This is part of the problem. So he goes on. I did try to talk to her at times. I said we need to cut down once we're drinking too much and she overdoes it. She got defensive and said that I drink as much as her. That was true, but I was saying that it was too much and we need to stop. This whole thing has me considering cutting out alcohol completely. I sent her a message saying we should do that together and she didn't respond. I don't know if there's any chance of fixing the relationship or if I should Even try. But I'd like her to get better with or without being together. I really care about her, and what she's doing is not healthy. Should I keep trying to help her get sober? Should I work on this relationship, or do I let her go? Signed a man who might have coddled and started some unhelpful squabble with a partner at the bottom of the bottle.
- [79:53]
Jordan Harbinger
Oh, boy, what a saga. I don't know about you, man. I'm exhausted just hearing about this. I can't Even imagine what 10 months of this nonsense must have been like. I think you already know my answer to your question, but goes without saying, I'm very sorry you had to deal with all this. Everything you described, the drinking and the fighting and the drama and the projection and the unreasonable demands, the probable credit card theft. I mean, this is all extremely bizarre, hurtful stuff. And, yeah, you chose it. Yeah. You decided to stick around through all that. That's your part. I think you know that. But it's got to just be incredibly sad to watch somebody you know is awesome sober do this to herself. And it must be super hurtful to love somebody who treats you that way as well. I'm also very sorry for her. She obviously has an addiction. She's totally in denial about all of it. And she's numbing her pain with dragons, drinking. She's playing out some weird script with you and with friends and with bar bouncers, seemingly with anyone she comes across candidly. The alcohol aside, a lot of what you described, it does sound like some kind of personality disorder. And you really only get that way if you've been traumatized. So on that level, I feel for her. I really feel for her. Let me cut to the chase here. No, you should not work on this relationship. Your girlfriend is an addict. She creates a ton of pain. She creates dysfunction and chaos when she drinks. She spends her time in highly questionable ways. She drags you into her drama. She apparently stole from you. I mean, this is bananas. Dude, do you hear yourself? This is all not okay.
- [81:25]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And it sounds like she's still very far away from realizing any of this. She has no idea how bad things are. Doesn't sound to me like she's ready to get help.
- [81:33]
Jordan Harbinger
No. And it's possible she'll never get there. Obviously, a lot of people don't.
- [81:36]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Although, who knows? Maybe losing you could. Could be part of that journey for her. But that's, you know, that's up to her.
- [81:42]
Jordan Harbinger
Could be another reason. I feel he shouldn't try to patch things up with her. She needs to realize that there's a cost to living this way. But, yeah, it's up to her. She needs to be ready to acknowledge the damage she's caused. She needs to be ready to try things in a very different way. And until that happens, there's no meaningful repair to be had here.
- [81:59]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I also feel that you desperately need time away from this. Oh, my God.
- [82:03]
Jordan Harbinger
100% agree.
- [82:06]
Gabriel Mizrahi
You've lost yourself in her in a variety of ways. Your time, your energy, your lifestyle, your sleep, your values. I think that's what your daughter was pointing out. And taking a step back from the relationship is going to give you some much needed clarity and some much needed peace after 10 months of being lost in the haze of this woman and her addiction.
- [82:26]
Jordan Harbinger
Absolutely. Look, I obviously feel your ex is the central problem here. But like you said, you participated in this dance. You enabled her in a few big ways. You walked on eggshells around her. You stuck around longer than you probably should have. I understand you had some reasons for that. When she's sober, she's great. There were aspects of this relationship that were sweet and meaningful. I get it. But the fact is, for 10 months, you stuck with somebody in an active addiction and put up with a ton of, frankly, insane crap. So I think there's a more important question here. The question I would encourage you to really explore now that you have some distance from your ex. Ex. And that question is, why did I end up in this relationship? Why did I stick with it? Why did I accommodate my ex in all these ways? Why did the benefits at that time seem greater than the costs? Why did I abandon my needs and values so easily? What about this situation felt gratifying or compelling or just familiar? You said your ex pointed the finger at you. A lot of the time. That's part of the addiction. I also suspect that it's a big part of her personality, that kind of projection that let me get these icky feelings like shame out of me and into someone else. It would also be tempting for you to point the finger at her, and that's mostly appropriate. But your work is to keep looking inward and really try to understand how you showed up in this relationship.
- [83:44]
Gabriel Mizrahi
For sure, I do not think it's as simple as, I stuck around because she's great when she's sober. There is a lot more going on.
- [83:50]
Jordan Harbinger
I agree with you. I'm sure he was going, oh, there's a wonderful person here. She just shouldn't drink. And I understand, understand when you're in a relationship like this, you live for the good times, but I'm with you. Even when she would go out and get hammered, he was still getting something out of that. He was still participating, either because he wanted to secure her affection, or he was afraid of standing up to her and setting her off, or he enjoyed the drama on some level or whatever
- [84:14]
Gabriel Mizrahi
it was, it sounds like one of those reasons was also that he felt responsible for her. Right. Which you're dating someone, especially as a man, that's also appropriate to some degree. You don't want a super drunk woman you care about about going to some weird club and then maybe another weird club and getting into some dicey situation. She might not even be able to find her way home. I mean, it's scary, but he also did not want to live with the guilt of saying, okay, look, this is not the kind of evening that I want to have. I've tried to help you. You don't want to listen. You want to have another evening. So I'm really sorry, but you're on your own now. And even now, it sounds like he still feels some guilt, at least a little bit of a tug about letting her go without trying to get a her help.
- [84:51]
Jordan Harbinger
So where does that guilt come from? How far back does it go?
- [84:55]
Gabriel Mizrahi
The other quality that I think he needs to look at is the walking on eggshells thing. That's a big one.
- [84:59]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, it's kind of a hallmark of a typical dynamic with an addict.
- [85:03]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Twice he mentioned wishing that he had brought things up at a more opportune moment, that he had handled things differently with her. He might be right. There might have been a better way or a better moment to talk to her. Fine. But there's a difference between being thoughtful about how you talk to someone and managing them.
- [85:18]
Jordan Harbinger
For sure. How's she gonna hear this? When do I bring this up in a way that she'll blow up the least? Maybe I won't say anything because speaking up is worse. I agree. That's another thing he needs to figure out. It's a crucial part of the puzzle piece that's fitting together.
- [85:30]
Gabriel Mizrahi
All the more so because he apparently has a history of chaotic relationships. Right.
- [85:34]
Jordan Harbinger
His ex wife. Yep.
- [85:36]
Gabriel Mizrahi
They argued. His daughter saw them arguing. Now his daughter is seeing him argue with this girlfriend. Just curious.
- [85:41]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah. You know, that might be one of the most significant data points in his whole story. I almost forgot about it with this whole Amy Winehouse biopic he just described, but, yeah, that's interesting. He seems to be drawn to this type of personality.
- [85:53]
Gabriel Mizrahi
We don't know what their deal was. We don't know what kind of personality she had. We don't know if she drank. I'm hoping he would have told us that if so. But it sounds like there was a lot of conflict in the house and it sounds like he's put in a lot of work to move on and stay clear headed and create a more harmonious home. And now he's back in a dysfunctional situation with another person. It's just interesting.
- [86:12]
Jordan Harbinger
So what do you think? Should he help his ex get sober?
- [86:16]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I don't know, man. Man, I don't know. A big part of me wants him to just say goodbye and move on. I think given all the facts here, she needs to figure this out for herself.
- [86:24]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, same. But then a part of me is like, she desperately needs help and he might be able to make her see her situation more clearly.
- [86:30]
Gabriel Mizrahi
He could try to get through to her one more time. Maybe one morning in a few weeks when he knows that she's sober. Or maybe in a letter, or maybe he gets a bunch of their friends and family together and stages an intervention. It could be a nice thing, honestly,
- [86:44]
Jordan Harbinger
given how she's reacted in the past to him bringing up her drinking. I think it's gonna take an intervention to get through to her. A bunch of people in her life looking her dead in the eye and saying, you have a problem when you drink. You do this and that. You've hurt me in these ways. You need help. But even that might not work. She might have to hit rock bottom before she's ready. If she's ready at all.
- [87:03]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I would not blame him whatsoever for letting her go and not trying to help her get sober at this point. I'm just saying it's a possibility.
- [87:09]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, well, especially after berating him and embarrassing him and using his credit card and then lying and shutting him down when he tries to help at a certain point it's like, all right, message received. I'm going to protect myself and my kids from this nonsense.
- [87:22]
Gabriel Mizrahi
It's really interesting. He's talking about her two sides, like that's a point in her favor, right? Like, she's so amazing when she's sober. That's the real her. But I wonder if that's entirely accurate. I think they're both her, right? The sweet, loving, sober stepmom figure and the chaotic, cruel, manipulative addict. And the alcohol brings out that second side of her. I do wonder if part of his process here is acknowledging both sides of her and integrating them. Because, like, what does it mean really, when you say about somebody that's the real them, do you mean that that is the personality that is present most of the time, or do you mean that's the personality you prefer and that you want to believe in?
- [88:01]
Jordan Harbinger
Oof. Yeah. Tough pill to swallow.
- [88:03]
Gabriel Mizrahi
In a way, that view of her might be part of the enabling, you know, and maybe part of the way that he partners with people in general to overlook or justify a ton of questionable, awful behavior, perhaps in order to sidestep the shame and the grief of having to acknowledge, oh, I am in touch with all of this stuff and also maybe to maintain hope. I get it. But it's something that he needs to look at because it is painful to look at somebody you love and say, the good, the bad, it's all in there. It's all equally real. It's certainly equally relevant. And if we're going to be in a real relationship, then I need to be in a real relationship with all of this person.
- [88:39]
Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I hear that. I think he needed to view her in that way in order to stay in this relationship. But then he might have stayed in this relationship because he viewed her so plenty going on in her side of the equation and plenty on yours. And right now I would focus on yours and I'd let her focus on hers. This relationship has had some great moments. Yeah. But it can never be a truly healthy, high functioning, fulfilling relationship as long as one person has an addiction that they're just not addressing. But in the language of Al Anon, which by the way, would be a great program to check out right now, your ex has an addiction, but you did too. You had an addiction to her. An addiction to this splitting idealization of her, an addiction to this kind of partnering. Even now you could argue an addiction to saving her. My advice? Start there. Let this relationship serve you by taking stock of what it's revealed about you and rack focus back to your career, your kids, your health and your life. If you're going to make the right call here, you need to be centered and stable yourself. Then go from there. Take care, man, and good luck. Go back and check out our episode on Scam Centers. The update out of the loop on Scam Centers that we did an update on earlier in the week. If you haven't heard that yet. Show notes on the website, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all@jordanharbinger.com deals I'm JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also Connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi this show was created in association with podcast. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you want. Learn and we'll see you next time. Ben Jordan reveals how 100,000 license plate readers are quietly tracking your movements. How vulnerable that data really is, and why I've got nothing to hide may be the most dangerous assumption of all. Right in the beginning, when we first found the security vulnerabilities and when I first realized how bad it was, I
- [90:53]
Gabriel Mizrahi
basically went to some senators and was
- [90:56]
Jordan Harbinger
like, hey, we have a national security problem.
- [90:58]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Above all things.
- [90:59]
Jordan Harbinger
If we're banning TikTok because we're worried
- [91:01]
Gabriel Mizrahi
about China getting people's data from their
- [91:03]
Jordan Harbinger
phones, this is 10 times worse than that. This is actually a major problem.
- [91:07]
Gabriel Mizrahi
There is flock all over the place, but there's also Verkada and Axon, which
- [91:11]
Jordan Harbinger
is a different company more or less
- [91:13]
Gabriel Mizrahi
trying to do the same thing. I initially assumed that they were just monitoring traffic. It's a third party company that leases the cameras and the technology to cities and police departments. And every single time that you pass the camera, it logs your license plate using a mixture of AI and license plate readers. And they're putting into a massive database. So your police, if they want to get a notification every single time that you pass a camera, they could find
- [91:37]
Jordan Harbinger
out everywhere that you've been over the last 30 days.
- [91:40]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I ended up being able to just
- [91:42]
Jordan Harbinger
get these really advanced profiles on people that if I wanted to rob them, I would now know when they were home.
- [91:48]
Gabriel Mizrahi
I would know the kind of stuff that they have in their house easily,
- [91:50]
Jordan Harbinger
even to some extent. You could even zoom in on somebody's front door when they're putting the code in.
- [91:54]
Gabriel Mizrahi
And so just because you don't have any secrets doesn't mean that you don't have anything to hide. Like a lot of people wonder if it's constitutional.
- [92:01]
Jordan Harbinger
And I don't see a way that it can be when a company like
- [92:05]
Gabriel Mizrahi
Flock turns it into this organized system that law enforcement can access open source intelligence. It's just really bad.
- [92:13]
Jordan Harbinger
There's a lot more bad things that
- [92:14]
Gabriel Mizrahi
could happen than good things. With that.
- [92:16]
Jordan Harbinger
To hear more on why you should rethink every safe camera you drive to past, Check out episode 1308 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. My name is Shannon Maldonado. I'm the founder of Yaoi, a gift shop from the lens of artists and handmade objects. I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your sales, like planning inventory, they're just right there on your dashboard. For anyone starting a small business, the biggest thing I can tell you, it doesn't have to be perfect. Shopify can help you build upon it. Start your free trial on shopify.com Queen
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Gabriel Mizrahi
Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word.
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Jordan Harbinger
My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. Twas a lovely square suv, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it.
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Gabriel Mizrahi
Tonight we feast.
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Jordan Harbinger
An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.
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Gabriel Mizrahi
Granger knows.
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Jordan Harbinger
When you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and a roll round corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24.
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Gabriel Mizrahi
7 support.
- [93:48]
Jordan Harbinger
Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.