A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight

Summary

The Journal Podcast Summary: "A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight"

Release Date: March 19, 2025
Hosted by Ryan Knutson and Michelle Hackman
Produced by The Wall Street Journal & Gimlet

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1. Introduction: Trump's Promised Deportation Campaign

The episode opens with Ryan Knutsen highlighting President Trump's ambitious campaign promise to execute the "largest domestic deportation operation in American history." Trump pledged to deport millions of illegal immigrants, focusing specifically on those who had committed crimes. As Ryan states:

"When President Trump was on the campaign trail, he made a lofty promise. He said he was going to deport millions of illegal immigrants." (00:05)

Michelle Hackman elaborates on the intended targets, emphasizing a crackdown on criminal elements:

"The gangs, the drug dealers, human traffickers and criminal cartels... we're gonna go after people who knowingly came here illegally, knowingly broke our laws." (00:24)

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2. Implementation Challenges of Mass Deportations

Despite the grandiose promise, Michelle Hackman points out significant shortcomings in the Trump administration's deportation efforts:

"His mass deportation isn't going so well so far, and that's a huge source of frustration for Trump." (00:56)

She notes that deportation rates under Trump did not surpass those of the previous administration, leading to frustration within the administration itself.

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3. Expanding the Deportation Scope

To address the underwhelming deportation numbers, the Trump administration broadened its target demographic, including individuals with legal statuses such as green cards or visas. Michelle Hackman explains:

"They're broadening the aperture of who we would think of as deportable. So it's a whole new scale that we're seeing." (01:23)

This expansion marked a new phase in Trump's immigration strategy, aiming to increase deportations by including a wider range of immigrants.

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4. Biden's Humanitarian Parole and the "Uniting for Ukraine" Program

Transitioning to the Biden administration, the podcast discusses the use of humanitarian parole—a legal provision allowing individuals into the U.S. under extraordinary circumstances. Ryan Knutsen outlines its historical use and recent expansion:

"Humanitarian parole has also been used during emergency evacuations, like after the Vietnam War and after the US Pulled out of Afghanistan... But humanitarian pearl really expanded under the Biden administration, specifically after Russia invaded Ukraine." (04:19)

Michelle Hackman details the "Uniting for Ukraine" program, which facilitated the entry of over 200,000 Ukrainian refugees into the U.S.:

"As part of that expansion, the administration is targeting an obscure program known as humanitarian parole... more than 200,000 Ukrainian refugees moved to the US via this program." (05:08)

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5. Expansion to Latin America: Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela

Building on the success with Ukrainian refugees, President Biden extended humanitarian parole to individuals from Latin American nations facing severe crises. Michelle Hackman describes the dire situations prompting this expansion:

"There are certain countries in Latin America where the situation is basically, you know, it's different, but it's just as bad as Ukraine... like Haiti. The government, basically, the President was assassinated. You know, in Cuba and Venezuela, there was sort of widespread issues with starvation." (06:25)

This strategic move aimed to provide legal pathways for migrants from these nations, expecting that it would reduce the influx of illegal crossings.

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6. Personal Narrative: Katerina Kirilova's Story

The podcast features a poignant interview with Katerina Kirilova, a Ukrainian refugee who benefited from the "Uniting for Ukraine" program. Katerina recounts her harrowing experience fleeing Mariupol during the Russian invasion:

"Like every 10 minutes something was just burning down. And yeah, of course it was scary... I had a grandma, but she died during the war." (11:20)

Upon arriving in the U.S., she shares her journey of rebuilding her life:

"I lived with them for the first two months. Then I found a job and rented my own place. And I did the right thing, you know, like, I worked. I never got any benefits. I paid my taxes." (12:54)

However, the shift in administration policies has left her uncertain about her future.

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7. Trump's Reversal: Ending Parole Programs and Its Impact

With Trump's inauguration, there was an immediate halt to the humanitarian parole programs established by Biden:

"When Trump took office, he immediately ended the parole program for Cuba, Haiti, Venezuela and Nicaragua, and no new applicants are being considered." (09:10)

This decision also affected Ukrainian refugees, putting many like Katerina in a precarious position as their legal status expires.

Michelle Hackman discusses the administration's aggressive measures:

"The Trump administration is revoking some people's status early, and that has the effect of making them deportable." (14:02)

Additionally, the administration introduced the CBP Home app to facilitate self-deportation, urging individuals to report their plans to leave the country voluntarily.

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8. Legal Challenges and Future Uncertainties

The Trump administration's actions have sparked legal battles, with lawsuits aiming to halt the termination of parole programs. Michelle Hackman highlights ongoing court cases:

"There is a lawsuit filed to try to stop Trump from ending this program... it's possible that a court could rule that way, but we just don't know yet." (15:16)

The debate centers around the legality of the programs and the executive branch's authority versus Congressional immigration powers.

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9. Emotional and Personal Impact

Katerina Kirilova expresses the emotional toll of these policy changes:

"It's hard to not have a home, and it's hard to understand that there's no place where you can go and to feel safe." (16:10)

Her story underscores the human cost of shifting immigration policies, leaving refugees in a state of limbo and uncertainty about their futures.

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10. Conclusion: The Ongoing Immigration Struggle

The episode concludes by reiterating the complexities and human stories behind immigration policies. It emphasizes the tension between administrative actions and their real-world impacts on individuals seeking safety and stability.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Knutsen: "When President Trump was on the campaign trail, he made a lofty promise..." (00:05)
• Michelle Hackman: "His mass deportation isn't going so well so far..." (00:56)
• Katerina Kirilova: "It's hard to not have a home, and it's hard to understand that there's no place where you can go and to feel safe." (16:10)

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For more insightful discussions on money, business, and power, follow The Journal on Spotify or your preferred podcast platform.

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Disclaimer: Timestamps correspond to segments where notable quotes and discussions occur in the podcast transcript.

Transcript

[Ryan Knudsen]

When President Trump was on the campaign trail, he made a lofty promise. He said he was going to deport millions of illegal immigrants.

[Michelle Hackman]

And on day one, we will begin.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The largest domestic deportation operation in American history. And specifically, he said he was going to deport immigrants who had committed crimes. We are going to crack down on.

[Michelle Hackman]

The gangs, the drug dealers, human traffickers and criminal cartels. And I think the way that it was portrayed was we're gonna go after people who knowingly came here illegally, knowingly broke our laws. And so I think a lot of people were led to believe that that is what the crackdown was going to look like. And now it looks really different.

[Ryan Knudsen]

That's our colleague Michelle Hackman, who covers immigration. And she says that since Trump took office, the mass deportations have not yet been as mass as he promised.

[Michelle Hackman]

His mass deportation isn't going so well so far, and that's a huge source of frustration for Trump. For people in his administration, deportations actually aren't that much higher than they were under Biden.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So to increase the number of deportations, the Trump administration is targeting a new group of people, people who came to the United States legally under certain programs.

[Michelle Hackman]

They're broadening the aperture of who we would think of as deportable. So it's a whole new scale that we're seeing.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Welcome to the Journal, our show about money, business and power. I'm Ryan knudsen. It's Wednesday, March 19th. Coming up on the show, a new phase in Trump's immigration fight.

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In recent weeks, the Trump administration has been turning up the heat on deportations. Over the weekend, his administration deported hundreds of Venezuelans without giving them hearings, citing an 18th century law. He's also been expanding the list of who is deportable by going after people with. With a variety of legal statuses, including some with green cards or visas. As part of that expansion, the administration is targeting an obscure program known as humanitarian parole. Humanitarian parole is a part of immigration law that's historically been used for special situations when someone can't get a visa.

[Michelle Hackman]

And so the government says, okay, this is an extraordinary circumstance. We're gonna, for humanitarian reasons, let you into the country temporarily on this thing called parole.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So the idea is kind of like the US Will let in some people under certain circumstances out of the kindness of America's heart, but it's only supposed to be temporary.

[Michelle Hackman]

The idea is it's supposed to be temporary, but it does, I want to emphasize, really give the government very broad authority to let people in as long as they can say that there's some kind of either humanitarian or public benefit reason to let someone in.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Humanitarian pearl has also been used during emergency evacuations, like after the Vietnam War and after the US Pulled out of Afghanistan. But humanitarian pearl really expanded under the Biden administration, specifically after Russia invaded Ukraine.

[Michelle Hackman]

So when Russia invaded Ukraine, there was a really interesting incident that happened where people were obviously fleeing Ukraine. They were spreading all over Europe. But a certain number, about 20,000 people, started coming to Mexico and hoping to cross the border to come to America. And we had this incident where in one month, 20,000 Ukrainians all flew to the Mexican city Tijuana and came up to this one border crossing across from San Diego, and were all asking for asylum.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The refugee crisis created by the war in Ukraine has come to America's doorstep. Hundreds of Ukrainians are gathering in Mexico, near the U.S. mexico border.

[Michelle Hackman]

And so the Biden administration was processing those people, letting them into the country. But it said, we can't just let everyone in the world think, if you come to Mexico and then walk up to our border, we're just going to let you in.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So the Biden administration decided to expand the use of humanitarian parole and use it as the basis of a program called Uniting for Ukraine.

[Michelle Hackman]

And the deal was, if you apply in advance, so you know, the government has a chance to vet you, and you find an American to sort of financially sponsor you, take you in, be your guarantor in some way, then the government would give you travel permission to fly to the US and live here for a grant of two years.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Now the Biden administration has promised to welcome 100,000 Ukrainian refugees into this country. Ultimately, more than 200,000 Ukrainian refugees moved to the US via this program.

[Michelle Hackman]

As a border gamut, it worked. I mean, literally the day that they announced this program, no one flew to Mexico from there.

[Ryan Knudsen]

It solved the Ukrainian immigration issue.

[Michelle Hackman]

Exactly.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The program works so well to get Ukrainians off the US Southern border that Biden decided to expand it to other countries in Latin America.

[Michelle Hackman]

Biden was having a crisis at the border. I mean, there were hundreds of thousands of people coming. At the height of it, about 250,000 people crossed illegally in one month. And he had this example of this program sort of fixing a border problem with the Ukrainians. And so people in his administration said, wait a second, there are certain countries in Latin America where the situation is basically, you know, it's different, but it's just as bad as Ukraine, you know, Haiti. The government, basically, the President was assassinated. You know, in Cuba and Venezuela, there was sort of widespread issues with starvation.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So Biden decided to offer humanitarian parole to people in Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and Venezuela.

[Michelle Hackman]

And so Biden said, these people are not going to stop coming basically no matter what we do. And so he made this bet where he said, if we let these people in legally, we make them find a sponsor, we have them pay for their own plane tickets, we give them a work permit. They're probably gonna choose that. Overcoming illegally.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Once these immigrants had this status and got into the US they're only supposed to be here for two years. What's the next step? Is it just two years and goodbye, or is there. Was there something else that the immigrants could do once they're here to gain more long term status?

[Michelle Hackman]

Yeah. So the immigrants, once they got here, were eligible to apply for anything else. So many applied for asylum. A smaller number probably found other paths.

[Ryan Knudsen]

More than half a million people entered the US From Latin American countries under the program. And Biden's decision to do this was very controversial.

[Michelle Hackman]

The reason this program was so controversial is because once this humanitarian parole expires, the person is in the country illegally, and they're basically in the same position as someone else who had crossed illegally.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Hmm. So it's sort of like a way to bring people into the United States legally, so they're not just lining up in this giant queue on the southern border, but the effect is that they're now here.

[Michelle Hackman]

Exactly, exactly. The Republicans in particular have argued that this program's illegal because Congress sets limits on immigration. You know, we have visa categories. If you don't fit into one, people strongly feel, well, then you have no right to be in the country. You shouldn't be here. And a president shouldn't have the authority to just decide to let a large group of people in who Congress hasn't authorized.

[Ryan Knudsen]

When Trump took office, he immediately ended the parole program for Cuba, Haiti, Venezuela and Nicaragua, and no new applicants are being considered. And immigrants who came to the US under the program from Ukraine are now left in limbo.

[Katerina Kirilova]

It's not like I don't want to go to Ukraine, but I want to leave. I want to feel safe, and right now my country can't give me that.

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[Ryan Knudsen]

Katerina Kirilova grew up in Mariupol, a city in southern Ukraine.

[Katerina Kirilova]

It was my hometown. Like it was close to the sea. Like I spent a lot of time at the beach. I had friends there, like all my life was there.

[Ryan Knudsen]

In February 2022, her hometown came under siege as part of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

[Katerina Kirilova]

Like every 10 minutes something was just burning down. And yeah, of course it was scary. It was really scary. I had a grandma, but she died during the war. Her house was bombed. I had my apartment in Mariupol, but it also was bombed and burned down.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Katharina says she was an orphan and that her grandmother was the only family she was close to, so she had to find a new place to go. She eventually found the Uniting for Ukraine program and was accepted. What did you bring to the US when you left Ukraine?

[Katerina Kirilova]

It was my dog and a backpack. Yeah, that's it?

[Ryan Knudsen]

What was in your backpack?

[Katerina Kirilova]

Few T shirts. Because, yeah, I left Ukraine only with my dog. Yeah, my apartment burned down with everything I had. So, yeah.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Katharina found a sponsor in Texas, a retired military couple, and moved in with them for a few months.

[Katerina Kirilova]

They're really special people for me. I lived with them for a few for first two months. Then I found a job and rented my own place. And I did the right thing, you know, like, I worked. I never got any benefits. I paid my taxes.

[Ryan Knudsen]

After Trump took office, Katarina says she got laid off from the nonprofit agency where she worked, which lost its government funding. And now the future of the Uniting for Ukraine program is unclear. Katerina said she hoped her status would be extended until the war ends, but that seems unlikely.

[Katerina Kirilova]

So right now, like, we're all just waiting, waiting for and not for Samson.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Our colleague Michelle, who covers immigration, says Trump has done more than just end the program for immigrants who came from Latin America. The Trump administration is revoking some people's.

[Michelle Hackman]

Status early, and that has the effect of making them deportable. And it's happening sort of on a rolling basis. These people are eligible for fast tracked deportation because they came into the country relatively recently. That means if you get arrested by ice, you don't even have the right to go in front of a judge and plead your case. You can just be deported. The other thing that Trump has done is that he's paused the processing of any other application that one of these people has put in. So let's say you came into the country and then you asked for asylum. Trump has said your asylum claim actually can't be decided because we put them all on pause.

[Ryan Knudsen]

And so what happens to these people once their status expires? Are they expected to just leave on their own, or is the administration fighting them and deporting them?

[Michelle Hackman]

We're still in the beginning stages. I think that both are going to happen. The administration has created an app that it calls CBP Home, where it's asking people to report their plans to self deport.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Are there any court challenges to these moves by the Trump administration?

[Michelle Hackman]

There is a lawsuit filed to try to stop Trump from ending this program. And in some cases, the court has said even though a program is illegal, some of the people who rely on it, it's unfair to take that away from them. And so it's possible that a court could rule that way, but we just don't know yet. We are here having this debate about whether this program is legal, whether the Biden administration had the authority to use. But to me, the really salient thing is these are people who went really far out of their way to do things the right way and to follow all the rules. They didn't break any laws by coming into the country. And so it's completely sort of changing the set of laws on them, sort of with no notice.

[Ryan Knudsen]

How do you feel about America right now?

[Katerina Kirilova]

Like, I have nothing bad to say about America, but what current government is doing to immigrants, to people who came over here legally, it's cruel to do it to people who doesn't have a place where to go. I feel like I'm being forced to live.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Katarina is planning to stay until her parole runs out. Then she says she'll probably go back to Ukraine. Despite the risks, I was able to.

[Katerina Kirilova]

Survive once and escape, and I'm not sure if I'm gonna be lucky enough to do it again, but I don't have much of a choice at this point.

[Ryan Knudsen]

How do you feel right now?

[Katerina Kirilova]

Overwhelmed. Because, like, I don't understand what's next, you know? And, like, you have to figure out plan B. Like, the war is still there, and I can't go back to Ukraine. My seat is still occupied. So it just. But I can't live undocumented here either. So it just.

[Ryan Knudsen]

I can tell that you're holding back tears right now.

[Katerina Kirilova]

Yeah. It's hard to not have a home, and it's hard to understand that there's no place where you can go and to feel safe. At least. I felt like I finally got home, but now I feel like I'm losing it again, and it's hard.

[Ryan Knudsen]

That's all for today. Wednesday, March 19. The Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal. If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're out every weekday afternoon. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.