Hans Zimmer Isn’t Scared of AI

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Journal – "Hans Zimmer Isn’t Scared of AI"

Episode Information:

• Title: Hans Zimmer Isn’t Scared of AI
• Podcast: The Journal
• Hosts: Ryan Knutson and Jessica Mendoza
• Release Date: October 25, 2024
• Produced by: The Wall Street Journal & Spotify Studios

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1. Introduction to Hans Zimmer and the Challenge of AI

The episode opens with Kate Linebaugh introducing renowned composer Hans Zimmer, highlighting his prolific career scoring over 150 films, including blockbusters like The Lion King, Gladiator, and Dune. The conversation sets the stage by addressing the recent attempts by artificial intelligence (AI) to emulate Zimmer's distinctive musical style, posing significant implications for both Zimmer and Reservoir Media, the company holding rights to his compositions.

Key Quote:

“Reservoir Media.”
— Kate Linebaugh [00:55]

2. Zimmer’s Creative Process and Collaboration with Musicians

Delving into Zimmer’s creative methodologies, the discussion reveals his collaborative approach, particularly his work with talented musicians like cellist Tina Guo. Zimmer recounts a pivotal moment while scoring Wonder Woman, where he struggled with a musical block and sought Tina’s expertise to overcome it. Their collaboration resulted in a spontaneous yet profound composition that significantly enhanced the film's score.

Key Quote:

“She is Wonder Woman. And after two weeks of struggling, it took us, the two of us, about an hour to go and do what, by the way, half of the string section from my show just played for you.”
— Hans Zimmer [03:16]

3. The Intersection of Technology and Human Creativity

Hans Zimmer reflects on the integration of technology in music composition, drawing parallels to his early experiences with synthesizers. He acknowledges the perennial fear of new technologies potentially displacing human roles but emphasizes that advancements often augment and enrich creative possibilities rather than replace them.

Key Quote:

“Everything is always the same. We always have a fear of the new... but very often, we will figure out a way where it becomes part of what makes us human.”
— Hans Zimmer [05:35]

4. The Role of AI in Modern Music Composition

Addressing the core theme, Zimmer provides a nuanced perspective on AI’s role in music creation. He views AI as a tool that, depending on its application, can either complement human creativity or pose challenges to the authenticity and emotional depth of musical compositions. Zimmer expresses cautious optimism, suggesting that AI could aid in expressing emotions and enhancing the overall musical experience if leveraged thoughtfully.

Key Quote:

“AI and music will become another great tool and great helper to help me figure out how to express emotion, you know, or give people an experience.”
— Hans Zimmer [10:35]

5. Zimmer’s Stance on Using AI in His Work

Zimmer is candid about his current stance on AI, revealing that he does not incorporate AI into his own composition process. He underscores the importance of personal investment and human touch in creating music, stating that while AI might contribute to the process, it cannot replicate the unique vision and emotional resonance that come from human experience.

Key Quote:

“I want it to be my piece. So... I don't think [using AI] would be better.”
— Hans Zimmer [12:27]

6. Legal and Ethical Implications of AI in Music

The conversation shifts to the unauthorized use of Zimmer’s music in training AI models. Zimmer admits that his work has likely been incorporated into AI databases without his consent, a practice that frustrates him. However, he prefers to respond creatively by composing new music rather than engaging in legal battles, reflecting his commitment to artistry over litigation.

Key Quote:

“If it is, and I'm pretty sure it is, it'll just make me mad.”
— Hans Zimmer [15:19]

7. Future Prospects: AI Achieving Human-Level Creativity

Discussing the potential for AI to reach or surpass human creativity, Zimmer is both intrigued and skeptical. He acknowledges the theoretical possibility of AI achieving a level of emotional depth comparable to his own work but emphasizes that true artistic impact requires a human element that AI currently lacks. Zimmer highlights the importance of art that not only resonates emotionally but also contributes to the advancement of humanity.

Key Quote:

“There's an enormous amount of music around that, you know, being produced... very little stands out. And the stuff that stands out is it rises by itself.”
— Hans Zimmer [16:50]

8. Innovating Sound Beyond Traditional Boundaries

Zimmer shares his innovative approach to sound design, exemplified by his collaboration with BMW to create unique auditory experiences for electric and hydrogen vehicles. He emphasizes the necessity of integrating sound into new technologies, ensuring that even silent advancements retain an aesthetic and functional sonic identity.

Key Quote:

“It's that stuff. I love, love sound, you know.”
— Hans Zimmer [19:58]

9. Conclusion: Embracing the Future of Music with AI

In wrapping up, Zimmer reiterates his belief that AI, when harnessed appropriately, can be a valuable asset in the musical landscape. He remains optimistic about the continuous evolution of music, driven by both human ingenuity and technological advancements, while maintaining that the essence of emotionally impactful art lies in the human experience.

Key Quote:

“It should be what the future is. And I don't think we're there yet.”
— Hans Zimmer [20:04]

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Final Thoughts: Hans Zimmer's candid dialogue on AI underscores a balanced view that recognizes both the potential and the limitations of artificial intelligence in the realm of music composition. While open to technological advancements that support and enhance creative expression, Zimmer remains steadfast in his belief that the soul of music is inherently human—a sentiment that resonates deeply in an age increasingly influenced by AI.

Transcript

[Kate Linebaugh]

The Lion King, Thelma and Louise. Gladiator, the Dark Knight, Interstellar, Dune. What do all these blockbusters have in common? Hans Zimmer. Zimmer has scored more than 150 films in his career and is arguably the most influential composer in Hollywood. He has tons of fans, some detractors, and a lot of copycats.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

These days.

[Kate Linebaugh]

There's a new copycat in artificial intelligence. Last year, an AI company tried to compose a major movie soundtrack in the style of Zimmer. And this has broad implications for Zimmer and the company with rights to his music.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Reservoir Media.

[Kate Linebaugh]

So let's ask Hans Zimmer himself and Reservoir Media CEO Golner Khosrowshahi. Are they afraid of AI?

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

From the Wall Street Journal's Tech Live Conference. Welcome to a special taping of the Journal, our show about money, business and power. I'm Kate Linebaugh. Hans Zimmer. Golnar Kosha Rahi. Welcome to the show.

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[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Goldar. Hans, thanks for joining us.

[Hans Zimmer]

Thanks for having us.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Thank you. Before we get started, what did you think of our theme song?

[Hans Zimmer]

Too much space.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Okay.

[Hans Zimmer]

You can do better.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Oh, wow. Okay, Bern, we're going to start this way. Golnar, will you license it, you reckon?

Will we license it? Yes.

Thank you. Okay, a few. Before we start talking about AI, I wanted to talk about humans. And a few weeks ago, for Hans's birthday, he played at Hans Zimmer Live at Madison Square Garden. Has anybody here been to a Hans Zimmer Live event? Okay. At that event, you told a story about a block you had on Wonder Woman and how you reached out to a cellist to help you unlock it. Can you tell us what happened?

[Hans Zimmer]

Well, it's rather obvious. I mean, the movie is called Wonder Woman, and I look at myself and I go, nothing. Wonder, Nothing woman. And after two weeks of mucking about, I remember my cellist friend, Tina Guo, who is one of the most beautifully elegant, graceful, soft spoken, gentle people in the world. Until she picks up her cello, and it's like a sword, and it's like a weapon. And I went, of course, of course. Call Tina. She is Wonder Woman. And after two weeks of struggling, it took us, the two of us, about an hour to go and do what, by the way, half of the string section from my show just played for you.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Yeah. So let's hear your cellist. Tina Guo, shredded up on the cello.

[Hans Zimmer]

A lot of bass.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

A lot of bass.

[Hans Zimmer]

I hope you still believe me that this is the gentlest, most refined person I know.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Tina.

[Hans Zimmer]

She.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

As he said, the cellist is certainly.

Her weapon, but this is inspiration from a real human. Has a robot ever inspired you like that?

[Hans Zimmer]

Different. Different things. I mean, you know, it's an interesting question because I. I started making music when synthesizers became the big enemy of. You know, I started in London as a session musician, and I was the synth guy. And most people looked at me like, oh, here he comes. He's going to take our job away, as opposed to going, oh, really interesting. Here's another color that we're going to add into the orchestra. I think it's actually not just technologies. Everything is always the same. We always have a fear of the new, you know, and then very often, quite rightly so, but very often, we will figure out a way where it becomes part of what makes us human.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Golnar, what's the business case for human music makers?

The business case is about the emotional depth. It's about the nuanced skill that is particular to Hans, that is actually composition and scoring. And then the other thing I would add is that AI in particular is trained on material from the past. Hans is not. I would. I'm not speaking for you, but everything that I've heard is that he is looking to create something new. So the technology can't really innovate a new instrument, a new sound and create that collaboration, because it's only human, that human imagination that has that vision.

It's like you led into where we're going here, because I wanted to talk about Dune 2, in which you actually invented or modified some existing instruments. Oh, we were going to put a picture of it up here.

[Hans Zimmer]

What do you got?

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Oh, yeah, there we go.

[Hans Zimmer]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Can you describe this pipe that Pedro made with epoxy putty, maybe from Home Depot? I don't know.

[Hans Zimmer]

Definitely Addict.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Home Depot is based on a. I think an older instrument, a pipe called a dudok.

[Hans Zimmer]

It's a. No, it's. It's Armenian. Oh, it's what? What he does is. He places the duck, which is roughly 3,000 years old. It's a obviously pre Christian Armenian instrument. And it, it's so simple. It's. It's a stick with some holes in it and two reeds at the top. And it's unbelievably simple. And if you bl of I blow into it, people will run away. Right when Pedro blows into it. And this is where it becomes interesting for me with Pedro somehow pouring his heart. It's not technique, it's beyond technique because it's only a stick with some holes. So it's not a lot of.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Well, let's hear it.

[Hans Zimmer]

Practice. I mean, to me it's, I mean it's always been the most soulful instrument there is. It's nearly a human voice.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

You were using this to. For a sci fi world, for a planet that doesn't exist. Other composers have used the orchestra for sci fi worlds like Star Wars.

[Hans Zimmer]

Yeah, yeah, I can get into, I can get into big trouble right now.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Well, I encourage it.

[Hans Zimmer]

So when I was a precocious teenager, which wasn't all that long ago actually, it was incredibly long ago, and I went to see certain sci fi movies and you know, they would say, you know, in a galaxy far, far away, you know, in millions of years from now, and I would hear that typical beautiful European orchestra strike up. I thought, really, you know, we haven't come any further than this. We are still doing that. And 10,000 years from now, and a galaxy far, far away from here. So one of the things for Dune was that I said to Denis, our director, I said, you know, well, wouldn't it be interesting if we invented some things and at the same time, if we use some things which seem to have stood the test of time, you know, Something that is 3,000 years old, you can sort of imagine that it's still around in 10,000 years and might even travel to another galaxy or something else. So there was.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

So you're throwing a little shade.

[Hans Zimmer]

Yeah, but I'm not. No, no, no. I'm saying, look, I loved those scores, I loved those movies. I'm not actually, I'm not throwing any shade. It just, it just, it just, you know, when you're 13 years old, you question things in the most, you know, sort of cheeky way. You know, why am I hearing violins out in space? You know, I mean, that seems to be like an obvious question for a 13 year old.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

It's also that you don't think about the creation and just the music. It's also what's making the music?

[Hans Zimmer]

Absolutely.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

So what is AI's role in music making?

[Hans Zimmer]

I think AI, like all tools, is going to be completely dependent on how we approach it, you know, how we approach it. And there's so many things floating through my head with that question. I mean, you know, that is not an easy question to answer, even for AI. I think. I think we live in a strange time, but I think AI and music will become another if we allow it. If we allow will become another great tool and great helper to help me figure out how to express emotion, you know, or give people an experience.

[Kate Linebaugh]

So would Hans Zimmer use AI in his own work? And if he found out that his music was used for AI models, would he sue? That's next.

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[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Do you use AI in your work?

[Hans Zimmer]

No, I. No, no, no, not really. Not. You know, it's. It's. And I tell you, I tell you why. It's. It's. It's just out of hubris. It's strictly that. Oh, God. It's confession time. I've never written a piece of music drunk, and I've never written a piece of music on drugs. So I would never write a piece of music using AI to help me because I want it to be my piece. So. Now, that doesn't mean if I used AI, it wouldn't be a better piece, but I don't think it would be.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Well, there was a director who. There are Edwards, who. Yeah, yeah, used AI.

[Hans Zimmer]

And then he talked to me.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Hans Zimmer's score for the Creator.

[Hans Zimmer]

Yeah.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

And he said it was a 7 out of 10.

[Hans Zimmer]

Right.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

And if you want 10 out of 10.

[Hans Zimmer]

Well, I was a little insulted about the 7 out of 10.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Did you hear the AI creation? The Hans Zimmer?

[Hans Zimmer]

No, actually, I never heard it. He was very. He was very good at, you know, making it disappear before I heard it.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Do you worry that AI could get to 10 out of 10?

[Hans Zimmer]

Yes, I think. I hope AI gets to 10 out of 10, because I love Spinal Tap. And I think we should go to 11. Right.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

AI doesn't think that it can do that because I asked it this morning.

Oh, go on.

[Hans Zimmer]

Then.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

I asked it, who shall remain nameless? Can AI create music as good as Hans Zimmer's scores? And it conceded that it has challenges. And four of them specified were its emotional depth, that your scores are known for their emotional resonance, which is difficult for me to replicate without the human experience, contextual understanding. What I had said before about matching up the film and the narrative and the story and evoking those emotions, the emotions of that story in the film through the music, innovative instrumentation. So exactly what we just saw, and a collaborative process. I mean, you're working in a studio where you're bringing in a lot of other musicians, and you can't do that through the chatbot.

Have you had your music be part of an AI model?

[Hans Zimmer]

I have. On purpose. Not checked. Because if it is, and I'm pretty sure it is, it'll just make me mad.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

And you could do something about it.

[Hans Zimmer]

I could do something about it. But the thing I learned a long time ago, it's rather than calling up the lawyers, I'd rather sit down and write another piece of music. I mean.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

The models that are out there are being trained, but without licenses and without any permissions.

[Hans Zimmer]

Yeah, I know that, and that's what I did.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Yeah. Would you consider legal remedies?

It's not about a legal remedy. I don't think that's a solution today. This is technology that is here to stay. We need to embrace it. There are B2B solutions that help our businesses. They don't replace the composer. They make us more efficient that we. Yes, we are in the music business, but we are in a data business. Our most important asset is our music, which in its pieces is in data form. Our job is to obviously advocate for the IP and the protection of it, and we'll get there. I don't think it's. It's really a fight today that is that necessary. I'd rather focus, as you said, on creating music and seeing where this goes.

What will better and better, 10 out of 10 AI mean for musicians and the orchestra?

[Hans Zimmer]

Well, that's the big mystery, isn't it? I mean, it's so interesting because it's called artificial intelligence. It's not called artificial experience, artificial emotion. It's not that. So once it starts doing that, because, you know, look, there's an enormous amount of music around that, you know, being produced, you know, and I don't mean to be mean about it, but very little stands out. And the stuff that stands out is it rises by itself. And I'm not sure if, I mean, yes, it would be really interesting to have a piece of AI move me deeply, truly touch my heart or, you know, not even that. It's like, you know, where I can say, this is a piece of art that is changing, you know, humanity. This is something, this is a piece of art that means something. Like Guarnerica meant something, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, we don't have to just speak about music, but this is advancing humanity as humans as opposed to, this is advancing just our technology.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Right. And there's some new technology out there that needs sounds. And you have made some sounds for this new technology. It's something high tech.

[Hans Zimmer]

It's always an embarrassing moment.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Yeah, yeah. So let's listen to this sound and imagine what it could be. What's that?

[Hans Zimmer]

Who knows what it is? Anybody?

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Yeah.

[Hans Zimmer]

Okay, you got it. Right. So BMW, BMW came to me with a really interesting proposition. You know, electric cars or hydrogen, I don't care what it is, silent cars. And I thought, oh, this, this is interesting because at the end of the day we can't actually be completely silent because otherwise we're going to go and kill somebody, you know, so we do need to have sound. But what we could do is we can bring an aesthetic to the SOU that we've never been able to do. And to be really honest, I love the adventure of going over to BMW and being able to play around with what they're doing. It's as exciting for me as composing a piece of music because it's, you know, it's that stuff. I love, love sound, you know.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

What does AI sound like to you?

[Hans Zimmer]

Well, AI right now.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

No, no, like you're composing the sound.

[Hans Zimmer]

Of AI Well, I was going to answer you by saying that at this very moment in time, AI doesn't have a sound because the sound it has is a sound of the past. And that's wrong. The sound for AI should not be here yet. You know, it should be forward looking. It should be. It's, it's, it should be. It should be the future. It should be what we can't imagine. It should be what the future is. And I don't think we're there yet.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Do you think we're there?

No, I mean, I, that it's. AI is trained on models of the past. It doesn't have the imagination, but I think it's sound and what represents it doesn't exist yet. Maybe it requires us to go to Home Depot.

Well, Hans Skolner, thank you so much.

Thank you.

Big round of applause.

[Hans Zimmer]

Thank you.

[Golnar Khosrowshahi]

Appreciate you coming.

[Kate Linebaugh]

That's all for today. Friday, October 25th. The Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal. The shows made by Kathryn Brewer, Jonathan Davis, Pia Gadkari, Rachel Humphries, Ryan Knudsen, Matt Kwong, Jessica Mendoza, Annie Minoff, Laura Morris, Enrique Perez de la Rosa, Sarah Platt, Allen Rodriguez Espinosa, Alessandra Rizzo, Heather Rogers, Pierce Singhy, Jeevika Verma, Lisa Wang, Catherine Whalen, Tatiana Zemis and me, Kate Limebaugh with help from Trina Menino. Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapak and Peter Leonard. Video editing in this episode from Stefano Sanchez. Our theme music is by so Wiley. Additional music this week from Katherine Anderson, Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, Griffin Tanner and Blue Dot Sessions. Fact checking by Mary Mathis. Thanks for listening. See you Monday.