How Microfinance Failed the World's Poor

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Journal. – "How Microfinance Failed the World's Poor"

Date: July 14, 2026
Hosts: Jessica Mendoza & Ryan Knutson
Reporting: Gabrielle Steinhauser

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the rise and fall of microfinance—a system that was once hailed as a business-savvy solution to global poverty. Through personal stories from Cambodia and detailed reporting by Gabrielle Steinhauser, the show explores how microfinance, originally intended to empower the world’s poorest, often traps them in cycles of debt and despair. The episode also critiques the failures of oversight and commercial interests that have led to widespread harm.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Promise and Reality of Microfinance

• Prem Tor’s Story (00:14–03:30)

  • Cambodian farmer Prem Tor’s initial $1,000 loan allowed his family to expand their farm and improve their lives—a textbook case of how microfinance was supposed to work.
  • Encouraged to take a larger $5,000 loan, Prem’s plans faltered. Crop yields didn’t increase as expected, and his family spiraled into debt, spending a third of their $400 monthly income on loan payments and struggling to afford basic nutrition.
  • Notable Quote:
    “It’s the thing that keeps him up at night... the psychological pressure of this looming debt. It’s really tormenting.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (03:15)

• The Broader Pattern (03:30–04:25)

  • Such stories are not rare. Microfinance, which was meant to be a market-based alternative to charity, has not made the promised dent in global poverty.
  • Notable Quote:
    “It’s sort of like the capitalist solution to global poverty. We don’t need handouts... we just have to enable them and borrower by borrower, we’re going to solve poverty writ large. Well, surprise, surprise, there’s still poverty in the world.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (03:48)

2. Origins: Hope and Hype

• The Birth of Microfinance (05:57–09:08)
  • Microfinance began in the 1980s as a response to questions about the effectiveness of traditional aid. Muhammad Yunus, an economics professor in Bangladesh, pioneered the movement by lending $27 to women needing small-scale business capital.
  • Yunus founded Grameen Bank, spreading the model nationwide and globally. Early data boasted over 90% repayment rates.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Yunus wanted to end poverty by upending the idea of who gets access to credit.” — Jessica Mendoza (08:14)
  • Microfinance was championed as "doing good while doing well," attracting international attention and culminating with Yunus winning the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006.
  • Yunus’ Vision:
    “In a poverty-free world, the only place you would be able to see poverty is in the poverty museums.” — Muhammad Yunus (09:49)

3. Transformation and Commercialization

• Commercial Pressures Emerge (10:16–12:34)
  • As microfinance spread, there was no safeguard to ensure future lenders maintained its social mission. High interest rates (sometimes exceeding 100% in Latin America) soon became the norm.
  • Microfinance turned into a lucrative industry, exemplified by Compartamos Banco’s $450 million IPO in 2007, which rewarded early backers handsomely.
  • By last year, global microfinance borrowers reached 140 million, owing $220 billion.
  • Notable Quote:
    “It kept expanding and it became a really successful business… with pretty high margins.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (10:55, 11:04)
  • Oversight lagged behind; growing numbers of borrowers ended up trapped in debt.

4. The Cambodian Microfinance Crisis

• On the Ground in Battambang (13:46–14:34)

  • Microfinance is omnipresent in Battambang, Cambodia. Lenders outnumbered other businesses; nearly everyone had a loan, sometimes more than one.
  • The money was often used for personal or emergency expenses (medical bills, home repairs) rather than income-generating activities, contrary to the original intent of microfinance.
  • Notable Quote:
    "Once you start paying attention, it’s everywhere. These microfinance lenders were no longer… NGOs or development projects, but commercial enterprises." — Gabrielle Steinhauser (13:55)

• Cycle of Debt and Social Consequences (15:08–18:47)

  • Many borrowers, like Samrit Sarao, took loans for housing repairs or farming inputs, but when crops failed or needs multiplied, repayments became impossible.
  • To stay afloat, families took additional loans, withdrew children from school, skipped meals, or migrated to cities for low-wage work.
  • Memorable Moment:
    Samrit’s 13-year-old son left school to sort trash and help the family, earning as little as $1 per day.
    “She really, really wanted her child to finish school… She describes these sort of, like, spiraling thoughts... at some point, she’s thinking of taking her own life because she just feels so helpless.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (17:55)

5. Human Rights and Regulatory Failures

• Documented Abuses and IFC’s Role (18:56–20:49)
  • Cambodian human rights groups documented predatory lending practices, including cases where illiterate borrowers didn’t understand loan terms.
  • Reports included devastating consequences—suicides, malnutrition, children dropping out of school.
  • Formal complaints were filed against the International Finance Corporation (IFC), the World Bank’s investment arm, for poor oversight.
  • The Ombudsman’s report highlighted severe abuses, including loan officers suggesting families consider selling their children to service debt.
  • The IFC’s board rejected the Ombudsman’s critical report—the first time in history such findings were dismissed outright.
  • Notable Quote:
    “The Ombudsman office… cited two examples of loan officers telling borrowers that they should consider selling their children to keep serving their debt. And that’s obviously… just shocking.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (19:49–20:05) “They just out and out rejected it and said that the Ombudsman’s findings were wrong.” — Jessica Mendoza (20:43)

6. Rethinking Microfinance’s Legacy

• What Went Wrong? (21:49–22:57)
  • Research shows microfinance hasn’t significantly benefited average borrowers and sometimes increases their hardship.
  • The concept assumed everyone could become an entrepreneur—a flawed premise.
  • Notable Quotes:
    “Maybe not everyone is an entrepreneur. Right? I mean, like, running your own business is really hard. Maybe debt isn’t the best way to help people get out of poverty.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (21:49) “If you speak to development economists… they didn’t find large scale benefit. They also didn’t find large scale harm. Right. And then… anthropologists, human rights world… can’t help but come away from it feeling like it has done harm.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (22:32)
  • Final reflection: Even if there is some benefit, the standard for success must be higher when dealing with society’s most vulnerable.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "It’s the thing that keeps him up at night... the psychological pressure of this looming debt. It’s really tormenting." — Gabrielle Steinhauser (03:15)
• “Surprise, surprise, there’s still poverty in the world. It certainly hasn’t lived up to the grand vision.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (03:48)
• "Yunus wanted to end poverty by upending the idea of who gets access to credit." — Jessica Mendoza (08:14)
• “In a poverty-free world, the only place you would be able to see poverty is in the poverty museums.” — Muhammad Yunus (09:49)
• “It kept expanding and it became a really successful business… with pretty high margins.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (10:55, 11:04)
• “These microfinance lenders were… no longer NGOs… but commercial enterprises.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (13:55)
• “Her oldest son, actually, at the age of 13, drops out of school to help his mom earn money... She really, really wanted her child to finish school… She describes… spiraling thoughts… at some point, she’s thinking of taking her own life because she just feels so helpless. And this debt has really come to sort of dominate her life.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (17:55)
• “The Ombudsman office… cited two examples of loan officers telling borrowers that they should consider selling their children to keep serving their debt. And that’s obviously… just shocking.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (19:49–20:05)
• “Maybe not everyone is an entrepreneur. Right?... Maybe debt isn’t the best way to help people get out of poverty.” — Gabrielle Steinhauser (21:49)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:14 – Story of Prem Tor: Microfinance success turned to burden
• 05:57 – Brief history and philosophy of microfinance
• 09:35 – Muhammad Yunus receives Nobel Peace Prize; vision for a poverty-free world
• 10:16 – Commercialization and mounting interest rates
• 13:46 – Cambodia’s microfinance epidemic: expansion and misuse
• 16:08 – Samrit Sarao’s story and the family’s debt spiral
• 18:56 – Human rights complaints and IFC investigation
• 21:49 – Reflecting on microfinance’s core flaws

---

Tone and Language

The episode maintains a sober, investigative tone, alternating between first-hand accounts from affected borrowers and analytical discussion by hosts and reporters. Human stories are at the forefront, framing statistical and historical context.

---

Conclusion

The episode reveals that, far from its idealistic roots, microfinance has often become a commercially-driven industry that fails to protect the world’s poor. Regulatory failures and unrealistic expectations about entrepreneurship have compounded borrowers’ vulnerability. The episode ends by questioning whether microfinance has, in net, helped or harmed the people it was meant to serve—and asserts that when dealing with the world’s most vulnerable, the bar for success must be much higher.

Transcript

[Jessica Mendoza]

Prem Tor is a farmer in northwest Cambodia. He's 40 years old. He and his wife have three kids. He grows vegetables like curly cabbage and wax gourd that he harvests by.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

He rents a plot of land from the government, and he grows vegetables, and his wife sells those vegetables on the local market.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Our colleague Gabriel Steinhauser went to meet him near his farm in Battambang province a few years ago. Prem Tor and his family wanted to expand their small farm. The hope was that they ultimately could start earning more money. So he took out a loan from a local lender,

[Muhammad Yunus]

lot of people.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

He took a first loan of $1,000 to sort of, you know, buy some farming inputs and just sort of increase his yield. He thought, I can earn more money and, you know, like, kind of make a better life for my family.

[Jessica Mendoza]

The monthly payments were manageable, and he was able to pay the loan back easily. And that small lo of $1,000 helped grow his business.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

The perfect definition of microfinance and what it was supposed to do.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Microfinance was created to provide small loans to poor people in developing countries.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

The idea is to allow people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps to lend them money so they can start businesses, become entrepreneurs.

[Jessica Mendoza]

That's the way it was supposed to work. And it did work for Promtor, at least at first. Then in 2023, his loan officer encouraged him to take out a second loan.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

That loan officer was like, yeah, we can, you know, we can lend you more money, and, you know, we can lend you $5,000 this time.

[Jessica Mendoza]

With that $5,000 loan, Promtor could rent more land and hire some other workers. And how did that second loan work out for Promtor?

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

It hasn't been that great. His plan to, you know, sort of massively increase his yield and income hasn't panned out that year.

[Jessica Mendoza]

The crops weren't bountiful enough. Promptor's costs outpaced his revenue. Now the debt has become a serious burden. The family makes only around $400 a month, and a third of that goes toward paying off the loan. The family has had to go to extreme lengths to save money, including eating fish paste and rice instead of more nutritious food. And if Prom tor doesn't make his payments, he risks losing his family's land.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

It's the thing that keeps him up at night, right? I mean, this is something that I heard from him and other borrowers that I spoke to, like the psychological pressure of this looming debt. It's really tormenting.

[Jessica Mendoza]

In your reporting, Gabrielle, how unusual did you find a promptor story not unusual at all. The original goal of microfinance was to empower the world's most vulnerable. People think of it as a market based alternative to charity.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

It's sort of like the capitalist solution to global poverty. We don't need handouts, you know, we don't need to, to give people something for free. We just have to enable them and borrow by borrower. We're going to solve poverty writ large. And within a generation or two, the world would be a much different place. Well, surprise, surprise, there's still poverty in the world. It certainly hasn't lived up to the grand vision.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Welcome to the Journal, our show about money, business and power. I'm Jessica Mendoza. It's Tuesday, July 14th. Coming up on the show, how a promise to end global poverty failed.

[Guest/Interviewer]

This episode is presented by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn [e-mail] Spotify this episode is brought

[Optum Sponsor Voice]

to you by Optum. Healthcare doesn't always work great. If you ever waited on a refill or couldn't schedule an appointment, you get it. That's what Optum is changing. They're using data and technology to integrate patient care, pharmacy and everything else. So healthcare is connected, not complicated. That means cheaper prescriptions that are easier to get and care that looks at the whole person, how you need it. Optum is making healthcare work as one for everyone. Learn [e-mail].

[Jessica Mendoza]

Microfinance was established in the early 1980s. It was a time when Western countries had started scrutinizing the international aid system that had been around since the height of the Cold War.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

Do you have sort of the first questions arising around like, you know, why are rich countries sending money to poor countries subsidizing? And there you have this very attractive solution that sort of, you know, win, win. You can lend people money, you can even earn a little bit of interest, but it's not a handout, right? It's a loan, right?

[Jessica Mendoza]

And it's this idea that's like, I'm not giving you money, I'm helping you start a business and I'm going to get something out of it and you're going to get something out of it and everybody wins.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

Exactly.

[Jessica Mendoza]

There's a business catchphrase for this. Doing good while doing well. Microfinance was the brainchild of a Bangladeshi economics professor who'd studied in the US Muhammad Yunus.

[Muhammad Yunus]

Here we talk about millions of dollars and billions of dollars of development assistance

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

to help the 1970s. Muhammad Yunus is back in his home country in Bangladesh. The economic situation is really, really dire. And, you know, he sort of takes his students out of their classroom, and they go into some of the rural villages that are really in the.

[Muhammad Yunus]

We never paid any attention to people who needed such a small amount of money.

[Jessica Mendoza]

In one of these villages, Yunus met a woman who made bamboo stools to sell, but she only earned pennies a day because she needed to borrow to buy the raw materials from a local vendor. Yunus intervened.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

So he speaks to her and the other women in the village, and he realizes, oh, okay, they collectively owe like, $27. So he lends them the $27 himself. Himself? Yeah, okay, yeah, $27. Not that much money.

[Muhammad Yunus]

So my first response was to give $27 from my own pocket and tell them, please return the money to the moneylenders.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

And in his mind, one of the things that people in poor communities lack is this ability to borrow money.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Yunus wanted to end poverty by upending the idea of who gets access to credit. After a few years, he founded a new bank to provide microloans to poor Bangladeshis. He called it Grameen bank, which translates as village bank. Micro financing in Grameen bank spread across the country, and the project seemed to work.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

The power of a simple idea has changed lives.

[Jessica Mendoza]

In Bangladesh, Hundreds of thousands of impoverished people were able to borrow money to start small businesses. According to Grameen, in the early 2000s, more than 90% of its borrowers paid back their loans. This success started attracting attention in international development circles. Microfinance spread to other parts of the world, like Latin America, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

It was a huge deal, and it comes on the back of, like, years of hype. There's like, summits and people set big goals of how many borrowers they want to reach globally.

[Jessica Mendoza]

All the hype around the idea culminated in 2006. I call upon Muhammad Yunus to give the 2006 Nobel Lecture. That year, Muhammad Yunus won the Nobel peace prize.

[Muhammad Yunus]

Honorable members of the Norwegian Nobel committee, Excellencies, ladies and gentlemen.

[Jessica Mendoza]

In his speech, Yunus talked about the future he envisioned once microfinance had spread far and wide.

[Muhammad Yunus]

In a poverty free world, the only place you would be able to see poverty is in the poverty museums.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

He said his grandchildren, they wouldn't have to go to a rural village in Bangladesh to see the burden of poverty. They would actually have to go to a museum and find out about it that way.

[Jessica Mendoza]

But the thing is, Eunice had always conceived of microfinance as a business, albeit one with a social mission. But there was no mechanism to guarantee that other banks would carry out micro financing with those same goals, because these were loans, not handouts. Banks were charging interest, and some banks charged extremely high interest. In some Latin American countries, for example, rates can top 100%.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

You have people in the U.S. and Europe sort of like, freaking out over, like, 3, 4%, right?

[Jessica Mendoza]

Sure.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

And that can really drive up the cost of your loans.

[Jessica Mendoza]

All this attracted more investment, and microfinance

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

kept expanding, and it became a really successful business. Right. And it actually had pretty high margins.

[Jessica Mendoza]

And so from that, I imagine banks are like, that seems like a good business to get into.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

Right. And, you know, in some ways, there are people who say that, you know, this commercialization is not bad. Right. Like, it should become commercially viable.

[Jessica Mendoza]

In the early 2000s, one such bank was from Mexico, Compartamos Banco. Compartamos had been backed mostly by nonprofit organizations and development institutions like the International Finance Corporation, which is the World Bank's private investment arm. And in 2007, Compertamos made an unprecedented move among microfinance banks. It went public, and international banks piled in. That IPO raised around $450 million. For the early backers, it was a

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

windfall, and they walk away with billions and millions of dollars in profit.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Since then, the industry has mushroomed. As of last year, There were about 140 million borrowers around the world. In total, they owe about $220 billion in microfinance loans. Meanwhile, critics say oversight has been lac. A lot of those borrowers find themselves deep in debt, unable to get out. Gabrielle went to the country where this problem is most acute.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

When you talk to people who follow this closely, Cambodia is really where we have the biggest crisis right now. You know, there have been periodic debt crises in other places, but the worst of the worst right now is in Cambodia.

[Jessica Mendoza]

So how is this actually playing out on the ground? That's after the break.

[American Beverage Sponsor Voice]

This episode is brought to you by American Beverage want clear, transparent information about the ingredients in your favorite beverages? That's why America's beverage companies launched Good to Know, a website with tons of information on your favorite beverages. It's all about transparency with no spin or judgment, just the facts you can explore. Over 140 common beverage ingredients all in one place for the first time. It's a first stop for clear, reliable information so you can decide what's best for your family. Learn [e-mail].

[Jessica Mendoza]

Late last year, Gabrielle was driving through the Cambodian city of Battambang.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

The first thing you notice is just how omnipresent microfinance is, right? Like any village, any main street you drive down, there's like four or five microfinance lenders that are set up there so it's very visible. And then you talk to people and you find out almost everybody has one of these or several of these loans. Once you start paying attention, it's everywhere. These microfinance lenders were no longer, in many cases, you know, sort of NGOs or development projects, but they're commercial enterprises.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Muhammad Yunus original vision was small loans for people looking to start or grow their businesses. Today, not only have the sizes of loans ballooned, the money is also going to other needs.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

In many cases, these loans were not being made to like start a business, grow a business, right. They were being made to build a house, improve a house. There's people who suddenly have like, you know, mom needs to go to hospital, there's a hospital bill to pay.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Though. These are real needs, using loans to pay for them isn't really in the spirit of what microfinance was originally supposed to build businesses to help people lift themselves out of poverty. Instead, these kinds of loans can end up further entrenching people in low income situations. And some of these banks were circling back to the same borrowers for additional loans.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

And what they want to see is sort of, you know, the credit volume going up, right. And when you reach a point where almost everybody in the village already has a loan, the easiest way to keep growing your loan book is by lending the same people more money.

[Jessica Mendoza]

So it sounds like it's creeping out like what these loans are being used for.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

Exactly.

[Jessica Mendoza]

That's what happened to a woman Gabrielle met in Battambang.

[Muhammad Yunus]

Hello.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

Hello. I'm Gabrielle.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Samrit Sarao is the mother of three boys and she took out her first microfinance loan in 2015 for $3,000.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

At that point, she's staying with her parents. They're really poor farmers. Their land's not very good.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Samritsarao got the loan so she could buy fertilizer and other farm supplies she needed. She also used the money to fix the leaking roof on her parents house. None of the spending actually increased Samritserao's income and she didn't have money to make her payments, so her mother took out a separate loan to help. And the interest rate is high, 18%, the highest rate allowed in Cambodia. If the family defaults, the bank could take their land.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

They're moving to the city to see if they can make some more money there. Her husband is a motorbike taxi driver. He makes like seven, eight dollars a day, maybe a little bit less on a bad day when fuel prices are going up. You know, like, that eats into his income.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

And she's sorting trash at a recycling center, and still they can't make these payments. At some point, they get evicted. Her oldest son, actually, at the age of 13, drops out of school to help his mom earn money, like at the recycling plant.

[Jessica Mendoza]

I mean, how much do they make?

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

You know, it can be as little as a dollar a day. When she really tears up is when she talks about that she, you know, she really, really wanted her child to finish school and have sort of better prospects in life, and they just can't. You know, she describes to me these sort of, like, spiraling thoughts that she has. She's. At some point, she's thinking of taking her own life because she just feels so helpless. And this debt has really come to sort of dominate her life.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Is there anything people like Samritsarao can do to get out from under this debt? What options do they have?

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

They have very few options right now.

[Jessica Mendoza]

A few years ago, two Cambodian human rights groups started documenting cases like Samritsarao's and Prum Tors, who we talked about earlier. Those groups found cases where loans were given to borrowers who couldn't read and didn't understand the terms of the loan or its potential impacts on their lives.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

I'd seen the complaints from the human rights organizations and those, you know, revolved around suicides, families pulling children out of school, families reducing their food intake. You know, all kinds of pretty shocking things.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Those organizations filed a formal complaint with the International Finance Corporation, or ifc, which is part of the World Bank. This was the institution that had financially backed a lot of the lenders. The human rights organizations complained to the Ombudsman's Office, which is a kind of internal watchdog.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

The Ombudsman office spent a lot of time looking into these complaints. And in their report, they cited, I believe, two examples of loan officers telling borrowers that they should consider selling their children.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Gosh.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

To keep serving their debt. And that's obviously. Wow, just shocking. I mean, for the record, neither of these two borrowers acted on this. But that's probably the starkest example of the pressure that people are under.

[Jessica Mendoza]

That report came out a few weeks ago. It concluded that the IFC hadn't monitored Cambodian lenders as closely as they should have. It also alleged that the IFC had violated its own policies. However, the board of the IFC did not agree with the findings and voted to reject the report.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

That's the first time, wow, that's ever happened.

[Jessica Mendoza]

They just out and out rejected it and said that the Ombudsman's findings were wrong.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

Yeah.

[Jessica Mendoza]

That means microfinance lenders in Cambodia and elsewhere can continue operating as they have been. A spokesman from the IFC said the organization has ways of protecting borrowers and that it works with governments to improve regulation of financial institutions. He also said the cases in the report are, quote, complex situations of economic hardship and multidimensional cycles of poverty that do not stem from a single source. The IFC says it will work to address the harms faced by the specific complainants. Gabrielle says that academic research shows that on average, microfinance hasn't significantly improved people's livelihoods. And in some cases it's made things worse. When you take a step back, Gabrielle, after all this reporting that you've done, was there a problem with the concept of micro financing from the beginning?

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

I think if you look at these randomized control trials, like, there does seem to be kind of an issue with the concept that you can just lend people money and they will find a way out of poverty. And maybe like, not everyone is an entrepreneur. Right? I mean, like, running your own business is really hard. Maybe debt isn't the best way to help people get out of poverty.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Would you say that microfinance ultimately did more harm than good?

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

I asked that question to so many different people and depending who you talk to, you get different answers.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

So if you speak to development economists who look at the data, they didn't find large scale benefit. They also didn't find large scale harm. Right. And then you talk to like anthropologists and, and people in the human rights world and you talk to bars and you, you can't help but come away from it feeling like it has done harm. Right?

[Jessica Mendoza]

Yeah.

[Gabrielle Steinhauser]

Ultimately we're talking about individuals here. We're talking about the lives of some of the most vulnerable people in the world. So I think the standard just has to be a bit higher than did it do more good than harm?

[Jessica Mendoza]

That's all for today. Tuesday, July 14. The Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal. If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're out every weekday afternoon. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.