Is DEI Done?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Journal - "Is DEI Done?"

Episode Overview

Title: Is DEI Done?
Release Date: January 27, 2025
Hosts: Kate Linebaugh, Ryan Knutson, Jessica Mendoza
Production: The Wall Street Journal & Gimlet, co-produced by Spotify and The Wall Street Journal

In this episode of The Journal, Jessica Mendoza and Chip Cutter delve into the ongoing debate surrounding Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) programs in the United States, particularly in the wake of actions taken by the Trump administration to dismantle these initiatives. The discussion explores the historical context of DEI, the impact of political shifts on corporate America, and the future trajectory of DEI efforts in various sectors.

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1. Defining DEI and Its Purpose

Timestamp: [00:05] – [03:54]

Jessica Mendoza opens the conversation by addressing President Donald Trump's longstanding opposition to DEI. She states, “DEI programs are meant to help underrepresented groups at work, in school...” [00:27]. Chip Cutter further defines DEI as an umbrella term encompassing policies designed to create more opportunities for minorities and underrepresented groups, aiming to make personnel decisions more meritocratic by mitigating unconscious biases [03:02].

Key Points:

• Definition: DEI initiatives focus on increasing diversity, ensuring equity, and fostering inclusion within organizations.
• Purpose: These programs aim to eliminate biases in hiring, promotion, and other organizational processes to provide equal opportunities for all individuals, especially those from historically marginalized backgrounds.

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2. Trump Administration's Crackdown on DEI

Timestamp: [11:18] – [14:42]

The episode outlines the Trump administration's aggressive efforts to dismantle DEI programs within the federal government and extend this crackdown to the private sector. Cutter explains that Trump ordered the termination of DEI programs across federal agencies, placing staff involved in these initiatives on paid leave [11:35]. Actions included removing DEI-related web pages from departments like Agriculture and Labor, establishing tip lines to report DEI initiatives, and revoking executive orders that previously mandated non-discrimination practices [12:03].

Notable Quotes:

• Cutter: “Donald Trump is on the hunt, and he is using every tool that he can to try to really finally kill DEI.” [00:43]
• Cutter: “He hired a chief diversity officer... in 2020, three out of four companies had created a chief diversity officer position.” [07:23]
• Cutter: “Now to the landmark ruling from the US Supreme Court today striking down affirmative action.” [08:48]

Impact on Corporations:

• Immediate Responses: Major companies like Ford, UBS, Walmart, Meta, McDonald's, and Target began retracting their DEI initiatives, halting funding for related programs, and eliminating DEI teams.
• Legal and Public Backlash: Civil rights groups condemned these actions, anticipating litigation against the administration’s efforts to undermine DEI.

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3. Corporate America’s Reaction

Timestamp: [13:36] – [16:43]

The episode highlights how different corporations responded to the Trump administration’s DEI rollback. While many pulled back, significant players like JPMorgan Chase, Costco, Apple, and United Airlines chose to defend and maintain their DEI commitments.

Notable Quotes:

• Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan Chase: “I am not going to just stop what the bank has been doing to promote a more equal and diverse workforce. We are going to continue to reach out to the Black community, Hispanic community, the LGBT community, the veterans community.” [14:36]
• Cutter: “Costco... saw DEI as important for their employee base and their diverse range of customers.” [15:14]

Key Responses:

• JPMorgan Chase: Defended ongoing DEI efforts despite political pressure, emphasizing their commitment to various underrepresented communities.
• Costco: Rejected shareholder proposals aimed at questioning DEI initiatives, setting a precedent for other companies to follow.
• Apple and United Airlines: Maintained their DEI policies, with United Airlines asserting that meritocracy and diversity can coexist [16:43].

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4. The Future of DEI in Corporate America

Timestamp: [16:43] – [18:39]

Looking forward, Mendoza and Cutter discuss the potential evolution of DEI programs amidst the regulatory and political challenges. Cutter suggests that while the label "DEI" might be under attack, the underlying principles may persist under different guises. Companies might shift focus to other aspects of diversity, such as veterans, individuals with disabilities, geographic diversity, or socioeconomic backgrounds [17:45].

Key Insights:

• Adaptation and Resilience: Corporations may continue to pursue inclusive practices, even if DEI is rebranded or structured differently.
• Focus Diversification: Emphasis might shift to broader forms of diversity beyond race and gender, encompassing a wider range of underrepresented groups.
• Organizational Culture: The commitment to diversity may become ingrained in corporate culture, making it less vulnerable to political shifts.

Concluding Thoughts: While the Trump administration’s actions have significantly impacted DEI initiatives, the conversation suggests that the movement for diversity and inclusion within corporate America is likely to adapt and endure, albeit potentially in transformed formats.

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Final Remarks

The episode concludes with a reflection on the resilience of DEI principles and the possibility that, despite political and administrative challenges, the drive towards a more inclusive and equitable corporate environment will continue to find avenues for expression and implementation.

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Additional Information

The Journal episode "Is DEI Done?" provides a comprehensive analysis of the current state and future prospects of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion initiatives in America. Through insightful discussions and expert commentary, the episode sheds light on the complex interplay between politics, corporate strategies, and social equity movements.

Transcript

[Jessica Mendoza]

For years, President Donald Trump has taken aim at diversity, equity and inclusion, or dei.

[Chip Cutter]

How do you.

[Unknown Speaker]

How do you define dei?

[Chip Cutter]

Go ahead.

[Jessica Mendoza]

How do you define diversity, equity, inclusion?

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, yeah, go ahead. And these are policies that were absolute nonsense. I will eliminate all diversity, equity and inclusion programs across the entire federal government.

[Jessica Mendoza]

DEI programs are meant to help underrepresented groups at work, in school, and not long ago, DEI policies seem to be everywhere. Lately, though, DEI looks more like an endangered species.

[Chip Cutter]

Donald Trump is on the hunt, and he is using every tool that he can to try to really finally kill dei.

[Jessica Mendoza]

That's our colleague, Chip Cutter.

[Chip Cutter]

The Trump administration seems to be doing everything it can in its powers to enact sweeping changes in the ways that companies and organizations operate, and at once wants to just end what it sees as policies that the Trump administration feels have been discriminatory towards white people.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Which is why, as he starts his second term, Trump is rolling out a series of actions, cracking down on dei. And corporations are watching. Many are already ditching their DEI programs.

[Chip Cutter]

The headline is the Trump administration and how its crackdown on DEI is rippling through companies. This is what HR executives and CEOs are thinking about. It's what lawyers are talking about. For my world, writing about big companies, this is the issue of the moment.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Welcome to the Journal, our show about money, business and power. I'm Jessica Mendoza. It's Monday, January 27th. Coming up on the show, Trump is unwinding DEI programs, and it's reshaping corporate America.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Jessica Mendoza]

DEI can elicit some strong opinions. I asked our colleague Chip Cutter to unpack the concept for me. How would you define the term?

[Chip Cutter]

Yeah, well, DEI is really kind of an umbrella term for policies designed to create more opportunities for minorities or underrepresented groups and to make sure that women could advance in corporate America. And advocates of DEI programs have long said that efforts like unconscious bias training or recruiting from historically black colleges and universities, they're all intended to make personnel decisions more meritocratic by ensuring that someone's identity doesn't end up holding them back.

[Jessica Mendoza]

And so, just to be clear, the argument is that this is going to make the system more merit based because it opens doors for people who have historically been marginalized.

[Chip Cutter]

That's exactly right. I mean, it's the idea that there are bias in all sorts of decisions and that these DEI programs are meant to create an environment where people can feel included, that they can sort of all have equal chances to succeed.

[Jessica Mendoza]

And so what is the counterargument to that?

[Chip Cutter]

The counterargument is that these programs, first off, have never been that effective and that they've been discriminatory. The critics of DEI say that programs, for example, targeting a certain number of black employees in management ranks by 2025, for example, would be discriminatory against other races.

[Jessica Mendoza]

So these critics are saying that DEI programs and policies actually make systems less meritocratic and that it favors certain groups over others.

[Chip Cutter]

That's right. And so they claim that the goals of DEI program are actually having an inverse result, that they are discriminating against groups of people, notably white men.

[Jessica Mendoza]

While widespread use of the term DEI is relatively new, the concept actually builds on ideas that go back decades.

[Chip Cutter]

Well, it really dates back to the civil rights movement. And so affirmative action and equal employment laws were enacted in the middle of the 1960s. Lyndon B. Johnson in 1965 signed legislation making it illegal for federal contractors, for example, to discriminate based on race.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Let us close the springs of racial poison.

[Unknown Speaker]

Let us pray for wise and understanding hearts.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Let us lay aside irrelevant differences and make our nation whole.

[Chip Cutter]

And so during the 60s, you saw companies starting to develop some of the first diversity training programs. And then for decades, you saw companies continuing to do more and more of.

[Jessica Mendoza]

This work at schools, in government and nonprofits, and in the corporate world. These policies focused on recruiting people across races and genders. And for years, affirmative action saw broad bipartisan support.

[Chip Cutter]

And then after the murder of George Floyd in May of 2020 in Minneapolis at the hands of a police officer, that sort of really sparked a broader movement. Black lives, Black lives. And a real reckoning with how companies think about race at work and how DEI programs should be approached. And I think a lot of the DEI programs were sort of built on the backs of affirmative action.

[Jessica Mendoza]

What is the difference between affirmative action and dei?

[Chip Cutter]

They're similar concepts, but there are some differences. Affirmative action was really meant to ensure that discrimination was not taking place and to do whatever was necessary to sort of correct for that and make sure it wasn't happening. DEI is broader.

[Jessica Mendoza]

DEI programs aim to promote opportunities for women, veterans, ethnic minorities, LGBTQ people, and other historically underrepresented groups. It also often includes things like unconscious bias training, conversations around structural inequalities, and workshops on inclusive language. And as companies, schools and government agencies embraced these policies, they hired people to help implement them. So post2020 post George Floyd. One of the things that happened was the rise of the chief diversity officer across companies. How important was this job?

[Chip Cutter]

Well, it really became one of the hottest jobs in corporate America. Companies just started scrambling to hire chief diversity officers.

[Jessica Mendoza]

I have just been hired to be.

[Unknown Speaker]

The school's first chief diversity, equity and inclusion officer.

[Chip Cutter]

He hired a chief diversity officer. He hired a chief diversity officer, an inclusion officer. There was some interesting stats that in 2018, less than half the companies in the S&P 500 employed someone in the role. And by 2020, three out of four companies had created a chief diversity officer position. And that was according to a study from Russell Reynolds, an executive search firm. So you really saw companies just going out of their way to hire chief diversity officers.

[Jessica Mendoza]

The enthusiasm didn't last. Progress on boosting representation was often mixed. Measuring something like unconscious bias is hard to do. And some of the mandatory training was just unpopular.

[Chip Cutter]

A company might mandate that all employees take an anti bias training, but employees actually sort of roll their eyes about it and, you know, try to just click through it and complete it as soon as possible.

[Jessica Mendoza]

There was also a feeling among people who supported DEI goals that a lot of corporate efforts were just for show. Soon, newly hired chief diversity officers were leaving companies in droves. Some told the Wall Street Journal they were skeptical that their bosses wanted real change. And then a big blow to the movement came in 2023.

[Chip Cutter]

Now to the landmark ruling from the US Supreme Court today striking down affirmative action.

[Jessica Mendoza]

The high court saying colleges and universities can no longer rely on race in the admissions process.

[Chip Cutter]

The Supreme Court's decision really opened the floodgates, and it created an environment where critics of these programs felt emboldened. Conservative legal activists started filing lawsu companies and programs that, for example, were aimed at promoting more women and minorities or giving grants to certain groups.

[Jessica Mendoza]

The ruling cast a chilling effect on corporate America, with a number of major companies pulling back on their DEI efforts. But others are holding firm. That's after the break.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Jessica Mendoza]

In his first few days in office, Trump wasted no time dismantling DEI initiatives within the federal government. So could you kind of dive into that for us? More specifically, what actions has Trump and his administration taken so far to undo dei?

[Chip Cutter]

Well, it's a lot. So he ordered an end to DEI programs across federal agencies. All staff working on those programs were put on paid leave. You saw the Agriculture Department, the Treasury Department, the Labor Department remove some web pages on diversity by Wednesday morning. Notably, the Labor Department, for example, had a page on the history of DEI that is down now.

[Jessica Mendoza]

The Trump administration also set up a tip line to report DEI initiatives across the federal government and its contractors. It told employees there would be, quote, adverse consequences for failing to report colleagues. The administration also instructed federal institutions to investigate DEI programs at schools with endowments of more than a billion dollars. And Trump revoked the executive order signed by former President Lyndon B. Johnson six decades ago, the one that required government contractors to proactively root out discrimination on the basis of race and gender. But the new administration isn't just going after DEI efforts in government.

[Chip Cutter]

Trump also instructed each government agency to identify the most egregious and discriminatory DEI practitioners among companies, nonprofits, foundations and other private sector organizations. And Trump recommended that these agencies Recommend up to 9 targets for potential civil investigation. So here he is, telling agencies to look far beyond the government and to look into corporate America and to see what's happening there and what might need to be corrected. This is what freaks companies out?

[Jessica Mendoza]

Civil rights groups like the Southern Poverty Law center have strongly condemned Trump's actions. It's expected there'll be litigation challenging the administration's efforts. In the last few months, some major companies have publicly pulled back from dei.

[Chip Cutter]

So let's just, like, give some examples. Ford said it would stop providing workplace data to a gay rights lobbying group. UBS stopped giving out $25,000 grants directed at businesses led by women of color. Walmart said it wouldn't renew funding for a charity it created to address racial disparities.

[Jessica Mendoza]

And there's more. Meta ended representation goals for women and ethnic minorities and eliminated the company's DEI team. McDonald's said it would end diversity goals for its senior leadership and stop a program that encourages diversity training among its suppliers. And Target will end its three year DEI goals. There are holdouts. Last week at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the head of one of America's biggest banks talked about the administration's actions on DEI.

[Chip Cutter]

So Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, is asked about how he plans to respond to attacks on DEI and what his message is on dei.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's worth pointing out one of the first executive orders that President Trump put in place was to end DEI within the government.

[Chip Cutter]

Yeah, so I think, first of all, I don't like monikers, and it makes it sound like it's a binary thing where you do. And he actually comes out pretty strong in defending it and saying he isn't going to just stop what the bank has been doing to promote a more equal and diverse workforce. We are going to continue to reach out to the black community, Hispanic community, the LGBT community, the veterans community. Basically, the bank was going to continue with its DEI work. And Jamie Dimon essentially says, bring them on, bring them on.

[Jessica Mendoza]

And is Jamie Dimon on his own here, or are we seeing other private companies sort of resisting anti DEI pressures as well?

[Chip Cutter]

One company that has really defended DEI is Costco. Costco shareholders rejected a proposal from a conservative think tank to report on the potential risks of the company's diversity initiatives. Costco, for example, was the target of a shareholder proposal questioning its DEI efforts. And they really stood firm and said that they see DEI as important to the company. They think it's important for their employee base. It reflects their diverse range of customers. And I think what Costco did ended up setting a new template for corporate America, because companies are often followers. They see one company hold firm, and they realize, oh, we now have a model for how to respond. You know, I was at a breakfast with a bunch of HR leaders and they were all talking about it. They were saying, we couldn't believe what Costco did. That actually is really interesting. Perhaps this is sort of a new way that companies could hold off these DEI pressures. They didn't get too much blowback on it. And so I think you might see other companies try to follow in a similar vein.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Some that have stood their ground on DEI efforts include Apple. The company's board has urged shareholders to reject a proposal from a conservative think tank targeting DEI policies. And earlier this month, the CEO of United Airlines told investors in a call that a diverse workforce was still achievable.

[Chip Cutter]

Well, we do hire on merit. We can hire the absolute best of the best and have a naturally diverse workforce. So at United, we can do both.

[Jessica Mendoza]

Trump's war on DEI is just beginning. Today, he's expected to sign an executive order removing DEI programs from the military. Who is most likely to be affected by this reversal?

[Chip Cutter]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's the people most likely to be affected are people of color, people from underrepresented groups. I mean, I think there are underrepresented groups now who worry, is that all going to go away? Are we going to be back to sort of an environment where we feel like we do have fewer chances to succeed in corporate America? And I think the bigger concern is what does this look like for underrepresented groups who now worry that there are fewer people who care about what their future looks like inside these big organizations?

[Jessica Mendoza]

One thing Chip says could happen is that some of the ideas of DEI could live on in the corporate world, but without the label.

[Chip Cutter]

And so I think it's just there's a bigger question about how do companies operate going forward? How do these goals get interpreted in new ways? You know, diversity can take a lot of forms. I think you might see DEI programs morph where they focus more on veterans, for example, or people with disabilities, or you think more about geographic diversity and people from different socioeconomic backgrounds. And so I think you might see more of a focus on other groups now. But I think it kind of remains to be seen how exactly DEI changes.

[Jessica Mendoza]

That's all for today. Monday, January 27 the Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode from Lauren Weber and Tapeng Chen. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.