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- [00:06]
Ryan Knudson
Do you want to just introduce yourself and tell us what you cover?
- [00:09]
Eric Schwartzel
Yes. My name is Eric Schwartzel. I am a reporter in the Los Angeles bureau of the Journal.
- [00:14]
Ryan Knudson
Didn't you mean to say Schwartzel, Eric Schwartzel.
- [00:20]
Eric Schwartzel
You know, I do like a cold martini.
- [00:22]
Ryan Knudson
Ah. Shaken or stirred?
- [00:24]
Eric Schwartzel
I actually prefer stirred.
- [00:26]
Ryan Knudson
I think most people do.
- [00:28]
Eric Schwartzel
That's where Bond and I differ. The only thing that Bond and I differ on.
- [00:32]
Ryan Knudson
Yes, Eric, of course, is Talking about James Bond 007, the world's most famous super spy.
- [00:41]
James Bond
Welcome. Martini. Shaken, not stirred. Tell him James Bond is here. Helm's orders, 007. You'll be using this Aston Martin DB5 with modifications. 007, reporting for duty.
- [00:58]
Eric Schwartzel
It is a long and storied franchise that has really survived so many eras of Hollywood and the world. I mean, it's hard to think of a 20th century character that has had the imprint that James Bond has like that.
- [01:16]
Ryan Knudson
Three years ago, Amazon, which has been growing its footprint in Hollywood, bought the distribution rights to the James Bond franchise. And the company had big ambitions for what to do with it. But those ambitions haven't panned out. Since the acquisition, Amazon hasn't made a single Bond film and there doesn't even appear to be one in the works. That's because there's another player at Bond's poker table, the family that owns the creative rights to the character and that's been producing Bond movies since 1962. And this family can't stand Amazon.
- [01:53]
Eric Schwartzel
I think this is a story about a beloved character who now finds himself caught between two worlds. There's the world of, let's call it the old Hollywood that James Bond grew up in. And there's now the world of the new Hollywood, which is represented by his new business partners at Amazon. And the absolute impasse and tension that has resulted from those two versions of Hollywood trying to work together.
- [02:32]
Ryan Knudson
Welcome to the Journal, our show about money, business and power. The name's Knudsen. Ryan knudson. It's Friday, December 20th. Coming up on the show, behind the scenes of the feud that's tying up the James Bond franchise.
- [02:58]
Workday
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- [03:34]
Ryan Knudson
The James Bond character was invented by the British author Ian Fleming, who wrote a series of books about him. Eventually, a film agent named Albert Broccoli, AKA Cubby Broccoli, secured the rights to make James Bond movies. The first film, Dr. No, was released in 1962.
- [03:53]
James Bond
Mr.
- [03:55]
Eric Schwartzel
Bond.
- [03:57]
Ryan Knudson
James Bond.
- [03:59]
Eric Schwartzel
Then of course, the rest is history. I mean, Sean Connery is cast as the first double oh seven. And really almost, I mean, every other year or so, we start to see a new James Bond movie.
- [04:12]
Ryan Knudson
Throughout the decades, Cubby Broccoli shepherded the James Bond franchise from Sean Connery to Roger Moore to Timothy Dalton. Then in the 1990s, his daughter Barbara Broccoli and stepson Michael Wilson inherited the Bond movies.
- [04:28]
Eric Schwartzel
And so the first film under their auspices was Goldeneye.
- [04:32]
James Bond
Need I remind you, 007, that you have a license to kill, not to break the traffic? I wouldn't think of it. Good.
- [04:42]
Eric Schwartzel
So it was the first one starring Pierce Brosnan as 007. Spawned an incredibly popular video game.
- [04:53]
Ryan Knudson
Spent a lot of time playing that.
- [04:55]
Eric Schwartzel
As a kid, an all time N64 hit. And then also kind of brought Bond into this kind of blockbuster era where these movies were massive events, massive spectacles. And after the Brosnan era ended, Daniel Craig comes on and the films get yet bigger and even more global.
- [05:20]
Ryan Knudson
There have been 27 James Bond movies that have generated a total of $7.6 billion at the box office, according to Eric's reporting. Nowadays, Barbara Broccoli is the main steward of the Bond franchise. Her stepbrother is 82 and nearing retirement. Barbara Broccoli is 64. She was born in Los Angeles but raised in London and has been working on the set of Bond films since she was a teenager. Once Barbara Broccoli takes control of the James Bond franchise, how would you describe what she's like as a producer?
- [05:55]
Eric Schwartzel
So I talked to folks who worked with her in several capacities and to a person, they all said, you know, Barbara Broccoli is one of those names that a lot of people outside of Hollywood have never heard. But when it comes to the Bond franchise, she is the keeper of the kingdom. And that goes to decisions big and small. So she decides, along with others in her family, who will play Bond. And she really prides herself on having that kind of gut instinct because Bond is often played by an actor who is previously a relative unknown in the industry. And it's very obvious to anyone who comes close to this franchise that whatever idea you have, whether you're a director or whether you are a licensing partner, whatever idea you have, it's going to go through. Barbara. I talked to people who worked on set with her who described it almost as kind of a like a den mother mentality. She really will everything from like individual lines of dialogue to managing relationships between the director and the crew.
- [07:04]
Ryan Knudson
While the Broccoli's produced the Bond films and own the creative rights, the MGM studio has been the primary distributor. And in 2022, Amazon, which has been trying to establish more of a presence in Hollywood, bought MGM for $6.5 billion for Amazon. This gave it access to a lot of well known IP titles like Rocky, Legally Blonde and the Pink Panther. And importantly, James Bond.
- [07:32]
Eric Schwartzel
Amazon has this streaming service, Prime Video, and every streaming service needs an almost endless repository of programming to fill with it. And so they absorb mgm. And with that absorption comes the right to distribute James Bond films. James Bond is kind of seen as the crown jewel of the MGM library that Amazon has absorbed.
- [07:56]
Ryan Knudson
Eric says Amazon executives were licking their chops about what they could do with the storied character.
- [08:02]
Eric Schwartzel
Before the deal closed, Amazon executives got together and started brainstorming just what they might be able to do with Bond in their ecosystem. And they thought maybe, should there be spinoffs? You know, there are like all these other characters like Moneypenny who could serve as the basis of their own shows. There was conversations around maybe a female 007 starring on a TV show. Really just the kind of like brainstorming that I think any executive team would do when they have this really famous asset coming into the tent.
- [08:34]
Ryan Knudson
But when Amazon bought mgm, remember, it only got the rights to distribute Bond movies. Creative control still belonged to the Broccolis. And so far, Amazon and Broccoli haven't been able to agree on almost anything for the future of James Bond. And so how would you say, like in a word or two, that this tie up between the Broccoli family and Amazon has been going so far, terribly.
- [09:03]
Eric Schwartzel
It is an incredibly fraught situation. I mean, the relationship has really frayed. You know, this was one thing that I will say became pretty clear in the course of reporting this story. I always strive for nuance in my reporting, but on that question, the answer was pretty black and white, which is that Barbara Broccoli has told many friends that she thinks the people at Amazon are idiots.
- [09:34]
Ryan Knudson
That's after the break.
- [09:42]
Dutch Bros
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- [10:17]
Ryan Knudson
To understand why the relationship is so tense between Barbara Broccoli, who controls the creative rights to James Bond, and Amazon, which controls the distribution rights, Eric and another colleague talked to more than 20 people familiar with the feud, including executives, business partners and friends. So why does Barbara Broccoli believe that Amazon executives are, I guess, just to quote from the second part of that.
- [10:43]
Eric Schwartzel
Idiots to make to keep it PG13, I would say. You know, I think it's. It's a combination of things. I think there has been skepticism from the jump that Amazon is the right place for a Hollywood property like this. And then I think since then, there have been times where she feels as though those concerns have been validated in how the company has approached working with her and what she can imagine working with them on any Bond film would be like.
- [11:19]
Ryan Knudson
The relationship started breaking down almost from the start. And it comes down to what Eric described earlier as a difference in visions between the old Hollywood of Bond and MGM and the new Hollywood of Amazon.
- [11:32]
Eric Schwartzel
There have been a few situations where the vibes have been off and where it seems as though there's a philosophical difference between how the Broccoli's approach moviemaking and how Amazon does. And this was really typified for me in a story I heard about a conversation that was had between Barbara Broccoli and Jen Sulke, who is Amazon's top entertainment executive here in la. And it was early in their relationship and Jen Salke referred to Bond as, quote, content.
- [12:08]
Ryan Knudson
Right. Which for people in the creative world, the word content is a little bit loaded because it doesn't necessarily connote the kind of gravity that comes with the art that a lot of people feel like they're creating. Art.
- [12:19]
Eric Schwartzel
Storytelling, right? Exactly. And this was a story that was almost recited like a fable by Barbara to other people as symbolic of the gulf between Amazon's approach and her approach, which is that Bond, this character who her family has shepherded and mythologized, is referred to by this sterile, transactional term of content. I think it serves as this very harsh reminder to people in Hollywood that the shows and movies that they work so hard on are being treated as these assets to be shoved into the piping.
- [13:06]
Ryan Knudson
Another thing about Amazon that caused Broccoli to recoil is the company's desire to mine the James Bond IP for spinoffs.
- [13:13]
Eric Schwartzel
The Broccoli family feels as though one reason James Bond has had the longevity it has as a franchise is its scarcity. James Bond really only exists as theatrical movies that are released every few years. And so there is always been a reflexive skepticism toward anyone who wants to do anything more saturated than that. I mean, there have been people who have approached them with so many ideas over the years for Bond TV shows. There was even a potential Bond casino that was floated at one point, and the response is always, you know, no. This has stayed special for a reason. And part of that reason is scarcity.
- [13:57]
Ryan Knudson
This difference in approach is making it hard for Broccoli and Amazon to make important decisions about the franchise, like picking a new Bond. The most recent Bond. Daniel Craig has hung up his tuxedo after five movies and he won't be in any more films.
- [14:12]
Eric Schwartzel
And so Barbara Broccoli has said many times that casting Bond is often a gut decision. She's equated it to choosing a spouse. It's something, you know, it's something you just. You don't sort of look to facts or figures to confirm. It's a gut instinct.
- [14:32]
Ryan Knudson
But Amazon is not the sort of place that runs on gut instincts. Rather, the company loves making decisions based on data.
- [14:39]
Eric Schwartzel
And some people I spoke to who worked at Amazon said the idea of casting such a giant role with an unknown actor with no track record is the kind of risk that a studio like Amazon isn't built to make.
- [14:58]
Ryan Knudson
From Amazon's perspective, Broccoli has been unfair, and Amazon has been waiting for her to make decisions to get the franchise going again. But because the two sides can't see eye to eye, everything has ground to a halt. It's been three years since the last movie came out.
- [15:14]
Eric Schwartzel
And so as recently as last month, I was told Barbara Broccoli was describing the status as no script, no story, no Bond.
- [15:25]
Ryan Knudson
That sounds like a long way off from having another movie.
- [15:28]
Eric Schwartzel
It does, yeah. And things can turn a corner and then move very quickly from there. But I just think that a lot of people now know that this is a very tense situation with very little idea of, like, where, where to go from here.
- [15:48]
Ryan Knudson
Eric says this might become the longest stretch between movies since the franchise came out more than 60 years ago.
- [15:54]
Eric Schwartzel
So one concern people have is, you know, if Bond goes away for too long, will it be hard to rev up that engine of interest again? Some people also think, though, that scarcity can be a good thing, and. And disappearing for a while will only sort of caused the appetite for Bond to grow. I think the concern for those working on the franchise today is that there's no progress in any direction.
- [16:23]
Ryan Knudson
Eric says Barbara Broccoli doesn't seem to be too concerned. The family has worked with different distributors over James Bond's life, and they're planning to pass control down to the next generation.
- [16:34]
Eric Schwartzel
And so she really seems to think that people will come and go. The priority has to be making sure Bond lives forever. And there's this quote of her father's that she often recites whenever she's faced with a situation like she is now, where there's a new partner in town like Amazon. And she says, never let people in temporary positions of power make permanent decisions. And it really, I think, crystallizes what she sees as a mythic project that can't be concerned about who's in the executive chair this week or what quarterly returns will satisfy investors.
- [17:15]
Ryan Knudson
So if a James Bond movie doesn't come out soon, who do you think it would hurt more, Amazon, The Broccoli family or James Bond himself?
- [17:25]
Eric Schwartzel
I think James Bond is probably fine. No matter what happens.
- [17:30]
Ryan Knudson
He seems, of course, he's invincible.
- [17:31]
Eric Schwartzel
Immortality.
- [17:32]
Ryan Knudson
The franchise. The franchise.
- [17:34]
Eric Schwartzel
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think, you know, it's this really. It's this fascinating dynamic because the two sides have very different things to lose. And for the Broccolis, it's this family inheritance that they've been charged with taking care of.
- [17:54]
Ryan Knudson
Right.
- [17:54]
Eric Schwartzel
So there is a lot of emotional baggage there. But there's also real financial concerns, too, because they need to keep that franchise engine running to support their company and to support all of the Bond employees. Now, Amazon, of course, I think they'll survive if they don't have a new James Bond movie in the next few years. I mean, the total of the MGM acquisition overall amounts to a rounding error in their. In their annual revenues. But I think for a company that is trying so hard to recast itself in Hollywood as not the big, bad content machine, but instead as a new kind of Studio 2.0, this is a real black eye because it's the highest profile example of the goods that they have, but it's also the highest profile example of how they can work with that old Hollywood approach. And so far, it's not yielding any good outcome.
- [19:09]
Ryan Knudson
That's all for today. Friday, December 20th. Additional reporting in this episode by Jessica Tunkel. This is the last new episode from us this year, so I wanted to take the opportunity to reflect with a song. Just kidding.
- [19:27]
Jessica Mendoza
Come on, do it now.
- [19:30]
Ryan Knudson
Woody Kate. Jess, what are you guys doing here?
- [19:33]
Katherine Brewer
We just wanted to, like, be here for this moment and wish everybody a happy end to this year and a.
- [19:41]
Jessica Mendoza
Happy beginning to 2025.
- [19:43]
Ryan Knudson
Oh, my God. Well, it has been such a wild year. We've covered everything from global conflicts to the Stanley cup fad to inflation to the election to the return of Abercrombie and Fitch.
- [19:56]
Katherine Brewer
So many stories and so much love from our listeners. We asked you over and over to send in your story ideas and questions, and we got so many responses. We've read them. All right, guys.
- [20:09]
Ryan Knudson
Oh, yeah. Every single one.
- [20:11]
Jessica Mendoza
Yes.
- [20:11]
Katherine Brewer
Love them.
- [20:12]
Jessica Mendoza
Love them so much. So thank you all for listening to us in 2024. It was such a great year. We hope you'll be back with us when we start another year of episodes on January 2, 2025.
- [20:23]
Ryan Knudson
Well, should we do the credits now?
- [20:25]
Katherine Brewer
Yeah, I guess so.
- [20:27]
Ryan Knudson
All right. The Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal.
- [20:32]
Jessica Mendoza
The show's made by Katherine Brewer, Jonathan Davis, Pia Gadkari, Rachel Humphries, Ryan Knudson, Matt Kwong, Kate Linebaugh, Annie Minoff, Laura Morris, Enrique Perez de la Rosa, Sarah Platt, Alessandra Rizzo, Alan Rodriguez Espinoza, Heather Rogers, Piers Singhy, Jeevika Verma, Lisa Wang, Katherine Whalen, Tatiana Zemis, and me, Jessica Mendoza, with help from Trina Menino.
- [20:57]
Katherine Brewer
Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapak and Peter Leonard.
- [21:02]
Ryan Knudson
Our theme music is by so Wily and remixed for this episode by Peter Leonard. Additional music this week from Katherine Anderson, Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, Nathan Singapak, Griffin Tanner, and Blue Dot sessions.
- [21:15]
Jessica Mendoza
Fact checking by Mary Mathis and Kate Gallagher.
- [21:19]
Katherine Brewer
Thanks for listening.
- [21:21]
Jessica Mendoza
See you in 2025.
- [21:25]
Ryan Knudson
Okay, so can I actually sing a song now?
- [21:27]
Katherine Brewer
Are you gonna sing?
- [21:28]
Jessica Mendoza
Please do.
- [21:29]
Ryan Knudson
Only if you sing with me.
- [21:30]
Katherine Brewer
I'll sing with you. What are we singing?
- [21:34]
Ryan Knudson
We wish you a merry Christmas we.
- [21:37]
Katherine Brewer
Wish you a merry Christmas we wish.
- [21:41]
Jessica Mendoza
You a merry Christmas and a happy.
- [21:43]
Katherine Brewer
New year we better stick to podcasting.
- [21:48]
Ryan Knudson
I think so.
- [21:49]
Jessica Mendoza
I think so.
- [21:51]
Ryan Knudson
Yeah. Good idea. I did it. I got you to sing on the podcast.
- [22:04]
Eric Schwartzel
You did? You did, actually. Yeah, you're right, actually. This is. Your long con has paid off.
- [22:11]
Ryan Knudson
No lyrics, though. But it still counts.
- [22:15]
Eric Schwartzel
I don't know if I. I don't. Well, it helps that I don't think there are lyrics to that theme song.
- [22:19]
Ryan Knudson
Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, but how does that song in Wicked go that you like dancing?
- [22:23]
Eric Schwartzel
Funny, funny, funny.