The Killing Spree Tied to a Silicon Valley Intellectual Movement

Summary

The Killing Spree Tied to a Silicon Valley Intellectual Movement

Podcast: The Journal
Hosts: Ryan Knutson & Zusha Ellenson
Release Date: March 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of The Journal, Ryan Knutson and Zusha Ellenson delve into a series of violent incidents linked to an intellectual movement in Silicon Valley known as the Rationalists. This movement, centered around AI safety and philosophical discourse, has recently been overshadowed by a disturbing killing spree orchestrated by a radical offshoot. The hosts explore the origins of the Rationalist community, the rise of its extremist faction, and the broader implications for the movement’s reputation and influence.

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The Initial Killings

The episode opens with a harrowing account of two simultaneous violent events that have shocked communities across the United States:

• Vermont Incident ([00:05] – [01:11]):
  In January, a Border Patrol agent near the Canadian border with Vermont pulled over a suspicious vehicle carrying two armed passengers. A gunfight ensued, resulting in the deaths of the agent and one of the passengers. Ryan Knutson reports, “Breaking news out of Vermont for you tonight... the Border Patrol agent was killed in the shootout, as was one of the suspicious passengers.”

• Vallejo, California Murder ([00:45] – [01:11]):
  Simultaneously, in Vallejo, California, an 80-year-old landlord named Curtis Lynn was brutally stabbed to death. Police identified this as the city’s first homicide of the year. Ryan notes, “The killing of the Border Patrol agent and the landlord occurred within three days of one another.”

Despite occurring thousands of miles apart, these murders shared unexpected commonalities in the profiles of the suspects, leading authorities to uncover a deeper connection.

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Introducing the Rationalist Movement

Ryan and Zusha provide an overview of the Rationalist community, emphasizing its intellectual foundations and influence in the tech industry:

• Community Characteristics ([03:06] – [04:00]):
  The Rationalists are described as a "loose group of intellectuals" based primarily in the San Francisco Bay Area. They engage in rigorous discussions on topics like decision-making, truth, and AI safety. Zusha explains, “They like to talk about debate, big existential questions. They love reason, logic, probability.”

• Influential Figures and Impact ([04:00] – [04:44]):
  The movement has attracted prominent individuals such as venture capitalist Peter Thiel and former OpenAI researcher Paul Cristiano. Their efforts have significantly contributed to the discourse on AI safety, with Zusha affirming, “They’ve sort of spearheaded this whole movement to slow down AI, to make sure AI is done in a way that doesn't harm people.”

• Online Presence ([04:44] – [05:27]):
  Much of the Rationalists' discussions occur on online forums like Less Wrong, which is noted for its complex and high-level debates. Ryan mentions, “Less Wrong is filled with long winded and complex posts,” highlighting the community’s intellectual depth.

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Rise of Ziz and the Zizians

The narrative shifts to the emergence of an extremist figure within the Rationalist movement:

• Introduction to Lasota/Ziz ([06:22] – [07:49]):
  Lasota, a brilliant computer scientist from Alaska, becomes a central figure in the Rationalist community upon her arrival in the Bay Area around 2016. Over time, she adopts the moniker Ziz, inspired by an alien villain from an online comic. Zusha notes, “Ziz, which is an alien villain from an online comic, was sort of started wearing black robes everywhere and started adhering to this philosophy.”

• Extremist Transformation ([07:58] – [08:19]):
  Ziz's transformation intensifies as she publicly discusses her "journey to the dark side," advocating for militant veganism and violent actions against meat eaters. Ryan recounts, “She was very charismatic for that community,” but her rhetoric quickly alarmed other Rationalists.

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The Violent Escalation

Following Ziz’s radicalization, the group known as the Zizians begins to commit violent acts:

• Formation of the Zizians ([08:35] – [09:38]):
  As Ziz's influence grows, she forms the Zizians, characterized by their militant stance and extremist beliefs. Their attempts to present unconventional research on neural identities are met with rejection by Rationalist organizations, leading to increased hostility.

• Public Confrontation ([09:38] – [10:28]):
  In 2019, Ziz and three other Zizians protest a Rationalist alumni reunion by wearing dark robes and Guy Fawkes masks, resulting in arrests and marking the beginning of their open defiance against the community.

• Ziz’s Presumed Death ([10:28] – [10:59]):
  In August 2022, Ziz reportedly went overboard from a ship in San Francisco Bay, leading to her presumed death. An obituary in Alaska characterized her as “loving adventure” but failed to hint at her extremist activities.

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Recent Killings and Connection to Zizians

The Zizians reemerge with renewed violence, linking them directly to the recent murders:

• Eviction and Assault ([11:54] – [12:36]):
  After relocating to a property in Vallejo, the Zizians attempt to evade eviction by attacking their landlord, Curtis Lynn, resulting in his severe injury and subsequent death. Notably, Ziz, previously thought dead, is spotted at the crime scene, confirming she faked her demise.

• Continued Violence ([12:53] – [13:31]):
  In Pennsylvania, another double homicide occurs on New Year's Eve 2022. Ziz is found at the scene, leading to her arrest for alleged obstruction. Although she was released on bail, she vanished once more, intensifying the manhunt.

• Escalation to the Border Patrol([14:00] – [14:30]):
  The recent Vermont Border Patrol agent killing is linked back to the Zizians, tying together a series of tragic events attributed to this extremist group.

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Impact on the Rationalist Community

The Rationalist movement is now grappling with the fallout from the Zizians' actions:

• Community Reflection ([15:01] – [16:19]):
  Leaders like Oliver Habrika have called for introspection within the Rationalist community, questioning whether internal dynamics and lack of stringent norms may have inadvertently fostered extremist elements. Habrika stated, “Understanding what is going on there might be of enormous importance in modeling the future impact of the extended less wrong social network.”

• Comparison to Effective Altruism ([16:37] – [17:05]):
  The episode draws parallels between the Rationalist fallout and the Effective Altruism movement’s challenges following Sam Bankman-Fried’s conviction. This comparison underscores fears that the Rationalist movement’s reputation may suffer, potentially hindering its influence in critical debates on AI safety.

• Future Implications ([17:13] – [17:49]):
  Zusha contemplates the long-term effects, suggesting that the Zizians' actions might lead to increased skepticism and diminished trust in the Rationalist community. “Will people take them seriously in these really important debates when they have this group of militant vegans that came from their ranks?” she asks.

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Conclusion

The episode of The Journal presents a compelling exploration of how intellectual movements can sometimes give rise to extremist factions with devastating consequences. By tracing the origins and actions of the Zizians, Ryan Knutson and Zusha Ellenson highlight the challenges faced by the Rationalist community in maintaining its integrity and influence amidst internal turmoil. The narrative serves as a cautionary tale about the potential dangers of unregulated ideologies and the importance of fostering inclusive and resilient communities.

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Notable Quotes:

• Zusha Ellenson ([00:15]):
  “They're wearing all black, they're armed to the teeth.”

• Zuzha Ellenson ([04:00]):
  “They talk a lot about this idea of the robot apocalypse of an evil AI killing off humanity.”

• Ryan Knutson ([03:23]):
  “A lot of people may have not heard about the rationalists, but they're very influential.”

• Oliver Habrika ([15:23]):
  “Understanding what is going on there might be of enormous importance in modeling the future impact of the extended less wrong social network.”

• Zusha Ellenson ([16:19]):
  “There are fewer norms that we share with more long lived groups which might act as antibodies for the most destructive kinds of ideas.”

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, providing a comprehensive overview of the key discussions and insights presented by Ryan Knutson and Zusha Ellenson.

Transcript

[Ryan Knudsen]

In January, near the Canadian border with Vermont, a Border Patrol agent pulled over a suspicious vehicle with two passengers inside.

[Zusha Ellenson]

This Border Patrol agent in Vermont was stopping a car because there had been suspicions about these two people. They're wearing all black, they're armed to the teeth.

[Ryan Knudsen]

That's our colleague, Zusha Ellenson.

[Zusha Ellenson]

There was a shooting and they got into a gunfight.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Breaking news out of Vermont for you tonight. A U.S. border Patrol agent, we have learned, has died along with another person. The Border Patrol agent was killed in the shootout, as was one of the suspicious passengers. Meanwhile, thousands of miles away in California.

[Zusha Ellenson]

There was a landlord in Vallejo, California, a little working class city north of San Francisco that was stabbed to death.

[Ryan Knudsen]

New attend Vallejo police are investigating the city's first homicide of the year. Officers say they found one man who had been stabbed. They took that person to the hospital. The killing of the Border Patrol agent and the landlord occurred within three days of one another.

[Zusha Ellenson]

On the face of these two murders, you'd think they'd have nothing in common. And then the authorities revealed the suspects. And they were both young, they were both computer scientists, they were both Vegans, and they were both interested in artificial.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Intelligence safety, computer scientists, vegans, interested in AI safety. Those characteristics of the alleged suspects were familiar to an influential community of thinkers in California called the Rationalists.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Very potent, brainy, brilliant community that's having a big influence in tech. And somehow from this community emerged this group of violent, militant vegans.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Welcome to the Journal, our show about money, business and power. I'm Ryan knudsen. It's Monday, March 3rd. Coming up on the show, a Silicon Valley intellectual society kicked them out. Now they're tied to a killing spree.

[Sponsor]

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[Ryan Knudsen]

The Rationalists are a loose group of intellectuals, mostly in the San Francisco Bay Area. They get together in person and in online forums to ponder philosophical ideas like how do we make better decisions? Or how do we know what's true?

[Zusha Ellenson]

They like to talk about debate, big existential questions. They love reason, logic, probability. A lot of people may have not heard about the rationalists, but they're very influential.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Many rationalists today are devoted to developing artificial intelligence in a way that's safe for humanity.

[Zusha Ellenson]

They talk a lot about this idea of the robot apocalypse of an evil AI killing off humanity, and they spend a lot of their time trying to prevent that. When you think about a robot apocalypse, most Americans are like, oh, that's in a movie. But you know, to them this is very serious.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The rationalist movement has drawn some influential people. Early on, venture capitalist Peter Thiel funded a rationalist research organization and former OpenAI researcher Paul Cristiano now leads the federal government's AI Safety Institute. Has the rationalist movement had a real impact on AI safety?

[Zusha Ellenson]

Absolutely. I feel like they've sort of spearheaded this whole movement to slow down AI, to make sure AI is done in a way that doesn't harm people. I mean, the development of AI has been so rapid, right? And often in Silicon Valley you don't have a voice that's saying we need to slow down and do things in a different way.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Much of the Rationalist's heady conversations take place online.

[Zusha Ellenson]

There's this famous online forum called Less Wrong where they debate everything. The rationalists, they love debating everything.

[Ryan Knudsen]

This post is a collection of 11 different proposals for building safe, advanced AI under the current machine. Less Wrong is filled with long winded and complex posts. To give you a sense of what it's like on the Less Wrong forum, we asked the journal team to read some examples. The stereotyped image of AI Catastrophe is a powerful malicious AI system that takes its creators by surprise and quickly achieves a decisive advantage over the rest of humanity.

[Oliver Habrika]

I shall argue that the most critical aspects of today's and tomorrow's world scale.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Ethical problems have and will have to.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Do with algorithms, not robots. It's a lot of very high IQ people, a lot of software engineers, very brainy people. When I entered college, they told me.

[Ryan Knudsen]

A Harvard education would empower me to do anything I want.

[Zusha Ellenson]

The world would be my oyster. They attract a lot of people who don't feel comfortable in other areas of society. Like transgender folks, autistic folks, contrarians, like atheists.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Throughout my life I've often thought that.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Other people had beliefs that were really repugnant and stupid.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Now that I am older, below are all the cruxes I could identify for my conclusion that veganism has trade offs.

[Zusha Ellenson]

And the community really for a long time didn't care who joined. They welcomed anyone. They welcomed any idea. They were eager to embrace anyone. And any idea no matter how outlandish it seemed to the outside.

[Ryan Knudsen]

This welcoming intellectual online forum caught the eye of a budding rationalist in Alaska, a promising computer programmer fresh out of college. I'm just going to refer to her by her last name, lasota.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Lasota was a brilliant young computer scientist from Alaska, graduated magna cum laude, came to the Bay Area, you know, about a decade ago, looking to work in tech and looking to get into this rationality movement in the Bay Area.

[Ryan Knudsen]

LaSota found community and an identity. She came out as transgender. She embraced veganism, she was interested in startups, and she started living on a tugboat in the waters south of San Francisco with a handful of other like minded rationalists.

[Zusha Ellenson]

So Lesota comes into this mix in about 2016 and loves it. But even in this community of oddballs, LaSota stood out.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Over time, Lesota's Persona evolved into something more conspicuous and extreme and she started going by the name Zyz.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Ziz, which is an alien villain from an online comic, was sort of started wearing black robes everywhere and started adhering to this philosophy of, they call it vegan. Sith is what they call it. After the people in Star Wars.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The bad guys from Star wars are the Sith. Yeah, the emperor was a Sith. Very bad, controlling everything.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Exactly.

[Ryan Knudsen]

At one point, Zy wrote a cryptic blog post about what she called her, quote, journey to the dark side.

[Zusha Ellenson]

And people started to get creeped out. You know, just very intense person, tall, blonde hair, long blonde hair, wearing dark robes, talking intensely about veganism and talking about allegedly on online forums, about punishing meat eaters, you know, very violent stuff, about having Nuremberg trials for meat eaters.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The rationalists began distancing themselves from Ziz. They started calling her and her friends on the tugboat the Zizians. Have any of Ziz's followers said anything about why they were drawn to her?

[Zusha Ellenson]

We have not been able to talk to people who were Zizians themselves, but we've talked to parents of people who were drawn in to the Zizians. And what people said is that the followers were all somewhat insecure, people who didn't quite fit in even in this community and who were really drawn to that militants that ZIZ had. Ziz was very charismatic for that community.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The Zizians began developing their own theories. Ziz was interested in an idea that the left and right sides of the human brain could be separated into two different identities. To study this, she and other Zizians attempted to keep one half of their brain awake while sleeping. The Zizians wanted to present their research at rationalist organizations like the center for Applied Rationality in Berkeley.

[Zusha Ellenson]

The organizations were rather dismissive. They said, we don't think, you know, this is real research. And they turned down their offer to speak about it. And that's really when the transformation took a very dark turn.

[Ryan Knudsen]

In 2019, Zyz and three other Zizians showed up at a Center for Applied Rationality alumni reunion event.

[Zusha Ellenson]

They protested this reunion of Rationalists wearing dark robes and Guy Fawkes masks. They blocked the entrance. This was very dramatic for the Rationalist movement and the police had to come and arrest them. And this really represented the beginning of the hostility and the split from the Rationalists.

[Ryan Knudsen]

As part of the split, the Zizians publicly blasted the rationalist movement, said they.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Were corrupt, said they were anti trans and believed that her group was, you know, the real, true, pure group.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The rationalist organizations denied the Zizians accusations. But soon the growing rebellion didn't seem like it mattered because by the summer of 2022, the Zizians run appeared to be over.

[Zusha Ellenson]

And why is that? That's because the Coast Guard gets a call in August of 2022 saying that LaSota and has gone overboard on a ship in the San Francisco Bay.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The Coast Guard searched the waters of the bay area for Zy's body, but nothing turned up. Ziz was presumed dead.

[Zusha Ellenson]

They run an obituary in a newspaper in Alaska saying, quote, loving adventure, friends and family, music, blueberries, biking, computer games and animals. You are missed.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Their leader was gone, but the Zizians lived on. That's after the break.

[Zusha Ellenson]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Business. We could all use more time. Amazon Business offers smart business buying solutions so you can spend more time growing your business and less time doing the admin. I can see why they call it smart. Learn [e-mail].

[Ryan Knudsen]

About three months after Zyzz's obituary was published, the Zizians ran into trouble. The group had moved off their tugboat and onto a plot of land in Vallejo, California. But they weren't making rent and their landlord tried to kick the Zizians off his property.

[Zusha Ellenson]

The landlord, who's 80 years old at the time, a guy named Curtis Lynn, is trying to evict these Zizians and they attack him with knives and a sword. He loses an eye, but he has a gun. He shoots back.

[Ryan Knudsen]

He loses an eye.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Yeah, yeah, he loses an eye. He shoots back. During the violent confrontation, one of the Zizians is killed, two of them are arrested, and who should be Spotted at the crime scene. None other than the supposedly dead Lasota Ziz. Ziz is alive.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So she faked her own death.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Ziz faked her own death. That's exactly right.

[Ryan Knudsen]

A prosecutor's email to Ziz's attorney confirmed the sudden reappearance. Ziz was, quote, alive and well. She wasn't charged in the sword attack on the landlord, but two other Zizians were. They've both denied the charges. What happens next?

[Zusha Ellenson]

Ziz shows up in an even more sinister spot across the country in Pennsylvania. Just a few weeks later, on New.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Year'S Eve in 2022, an older couple in Pennsylvania was shot and killed in their home. When the police went to question the couple's daughter, they found her at a hotel with Ziz.

[Zusha Ellenson]

But when they approached Ziz to talk to Ziz, Ziz just plays dead and lies there, won't say anything.

[Ryan Knudsen]

They arrested Zyz for alleged obstruction. Her attorney disputed the charges. Zyz made bail and then vanished again.

[Zusha Ellenson]

After the murders in Pennsylvania, the Rationalist community in Berkeley really starts to get freaked out. Someone puts what they call a community alert on this forum called Less Wrong, where the rationalists like to debate things and they say, you know, people are concerned that Zyzz and her associates are violent and that there's a real threat here.

[Ryan Knudsen]

That post went out in early 2023, putting the Rationalists on high alert. But after that, the Zizians went quiet and no one really heard from them until this past January when those two killings happened. A U.S. border Patrol agent, we have learned, has died along with the Border Patrol agent in Vermont and that landlord in California. Officers say they found one man who had been stabbed. The landlord in California was the same man who lost his eye in the sword attack a few years earlier, and he was set to testify against the Zizians in that case when he was killed. All told, six people have died in connection with the Zizians. There's the landlord, the Border Patrol agent, the couple in Pennsylvania, and two Zizians themselves who were killed during the various confrontations. The motivation behind these killings is still unclear. In February, Zyz was arrested on trespassing, obstruction and gun charges. Following a manhunt, a judge ordered that she be held without bail. She's denied any wrongdoing. How is the Rationalist movement processing? What's going on?

[Zusha Ellenson]

Someone posted on the Rationalist forum about why do so many rationalists turn crazy?

[Ryan Knudsen]

A leader in the rationalist community, a person named Oliver Habrika, made a post on Less Wrong Inviting the rationalists to do what they do, debate and reflect. This time the topic of the discussion was themselves. We asked one of our colleagues to read it out loud.

[Oliver Habrika]

I think there is a common thread between a lot of the people behaving in crazy or reckless ways that it can be explained and that understanding what is going on there might be of enormous importance in modeling the future impact of the extended less wrong social network.

[Zusha Ellenson]

These rationalists are asking questions like were there dynamics in our group, that sort of cult like behavior that led to this sort of thing?

[Oliver Habrika]

I think a lot of this is just that we aren't very conventional and so we tend to develop novel standards and social structures.

[Zusha Ellenson]

Another thing they've been talking about a lot is how open the community was. They really just would allow anyone to come and go and they feel like that openness has really helped them and helped the movement do things that other folks couldn't do. But also let in people who, you know, we're not welcome elsewhere for a good reason.

[Oliver Habrika]

There are fewer norms that we share with more long lived groups which might act as antibodies for the most destructive kinds of ideas.

[Zusha Ellenson]

But at the center of it is sort of a soul searching is like did our movement go wrong in some way? And it's reminiscent of the soul searching that took place after Sam Bankman Fried was convicted of, you know, one of the biggest frauds in history.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Sam Bankman Fried, the founder of FTX who was convicted of fraud, was a follower of a movement called Effective Altruism which has a lot of overlap with Rationalism in its approach and community. Since his conviction, the Effective Altruism movement has suffered reputational damage and increased scrutiny.

[Zusha Ellenson]

And after that people ask, well you know, is there something wrong with this movement that this guy turned out so badly? And it's a very similar situation now.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Do you think that this incident with the Zizians might damage the Rationalist movement's reputation or the movement itself?

[Zusha Ellenson]

Yeah, that's a really great question. How is it going to change this movement that's had so much influence in Silicon Valley? I think the one thing it might do is make people look at their movement a little more askance, you know, with a little more suspicion in their mind when they're talking about AI safety, you know, wilt people take them seriously in these really important debates when they have this group of militant vegans that came from their ranks?

[Ryan Knudsen]

That's all for today. Monday, March 3 the Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal. If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're out every weekday afternoon. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.