The Missing Minister: The Vanishing of Qin Gang

Summary

Summary of "The Missing Minister: The Vanishing of Qin Gang" – The Journal

Episode Release Date: December 30, 2024
Hosts: Kate Linebaugh, Ryan Knutson, Jessica Mendoza
Production: The Wall Street Journal & Gimlet, Spotify

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1. Introduction to the Mystery

The first episode of The Journal's three-part series, "The Missing Minister: The Vanishing of Qin Gang," delves into the enigmatic disappearance of Qin Gang, China's former Foreign Minister. Hosts Kate Linebaugh and Ryan Knutson, alongside correspondent Ling Ling Wei, explore one of China's most perplexing political disappearances in recent years.

Notable Quote:

Ryan (00:00): "Kate and our reporting team take you through one of the most intriguing political mysteries to come out of China in years."

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2. The Last Public Appearance

Qin Gang was last seen in public on June 25th of the previous year in Beijing. On that day, Qin was performing his duties as Foreign Minister, primarily engaging with other foreign dignitaries.

Notable Quotes:

Ling Ling Wei (00:34): "The last day that Qin Gang, China's then foreign minister, was seen in public was on June 25th of last year."
Kate Linebaugh (00:59): "We know from Qin Gang's official schedule that he met with Sri Lanka's Foreign Minister."

During these meetings, Qin discussed significant topics such as China's Belt and Road Initiative and the upcoming visit of Vietnam's Prime Minister to China. Photos from these encounters depicted Qin as confident and composed, underscoring his prominent position within China's political elite.

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3. Rise Through the Ranks: From UPI to Foreign Minister

Qin Gang's political ascent was notably swift, particularly after Xi Jinping rose to power in 2012. Initially working as a low-level government official assisting journalists from the UPI in the late 80s and early 90s, Qin demonstrated ambition and competence early on.

Notable Quotes:

Sarah Lubman (07:06): "I do remember him as a very kind of lanky guy. I also remember him as kind of arrogant... he was clearly very smart. He was clearly very ambitious."
Ling Ling Wei (08:09): "Sarah and Qin worked together in a converted apartment in one of Beijing's diplomatic compounds."

In 2021, Qin was appointed as China's Ambassador to the United States, a significant promotion that surprised many due to his limited experience in the U.S. diplomatic landscape. This appointment was largely attributed to Xi Jinping's personal trust in Qin.

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4. China-US Relations and Ambassadorial Challenges

As Ambassador to the U.S., Qin Gang faced numerous challenges, including strained Sino-American relations over issues like Taiwan and espionage. His tenure was marked by difficulty in building effective relationships within Washington D.C., leading to perceptions of arrogance and unapproachability among U.S. policymakers.

Notable Quotes:

Danny Russell (18:27): "I think they found him arrogant, even impolite, and at other times highly formulaic."
Kate Linebaugh (20:16): "He was known as a very strict manager, very hesitant, hands on manager... he has had some women issues."

Despite these challenges, Qin's close relationship with Xi Jinping propelled his rapid career advancement, culminating in his promotion to Foreign Minister in 2022.

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5. Promotion to Foreign Minister and State Counselor

In 2022, Qin Gang was elevated to the position of Foreign Minister and further bestowed with the title of State Counselor, marking a significant leap in his political stature. This move bypassed the usual protocols and seniority considerations, highlighting Xi Jinping's direct influence over personnel decisions.

Notable Quotes:

Kate Linebaugh (22:02): "That appointment was truly mind boggling to me... it was really Shi Jinping himself who decided to name him Foreign Minister."
Danny Russell (23:41): "China had now entered an imperial era... the singular leader now makes all of these personnel decisions."

This unprecedented promotion underscored Qin's importance within Xi's administration but also sowed seeds of resentment and suspicion among his peers.

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6. The Sudden Disappearance

By July of the previous year, just six months into his role as Foreign Minister, Qin Gang began to vanish from public view. The Chinese Foreign Ministry initially remained silent, but later attributed his absence to "health reasons," a common euphemism for internal disciplinary actions.

Notable Quotes:

Kate Linebaugh (24:41): "Initially, the Foreign Ministry was very silent on questions about his whereabouts."
Kate Linebaugh (25:10): "In Chinese system, health reasons are often cited for officials who have... fallen out of favor or gone into some kind of trouble."

Ling Ling Wei's investigation revealed that Qin was subject to an internal investigation, with official statements citing "lifestyle issues" related to sexual misconduct, specifically an affair during his ambassadorship in the U.S.

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7. Speculations and Security Concerns

The official explanation for Qin's disappearance—his affair—did not sufficiently account for the severity of his sudden fall, especially given the prevalence of such behavior among high-ranking officials in China. Ling Ling Wei's reporting suggested that the affair may have had broader implications, potentially compromising national security.

Notable Quotes:

Kate Linebaugh (26:27): "It didn't make a lot of sense to me because high ranking officials in China, they have affairs all the time... there must have been something else."
Ling Ling Wei (27:07): "But Lingling kept digging and she did have one thread to pull on... senior Chinese officials were told that Qin had been investigated because of an affair that could have compromised China's national security."

The investigation into Qin also brought Fu Xiaotian, the woman involved in the affair, into the spotlight, suggesting a deeper and more complex narrative behind Qin's disappearance.

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8. Conclusion and Tease for Next Episode

The episode concludes by setting the stage for the subsequent parts of the series, promising to explore Fu Xiaotian's role and the broader implications of Qin Gang's disappearance within China's opaque political landscape.

Notable Quote:

Ling Ling Wei (28:08): "Fu Xiaotian, a rising star in her own profession with friends in high places who would face a downfall just as mysterious as Qin gang's."

Listeners are encouraged to tune into episodes two and three to uncover the full extent of this political mystery.

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Key Insights and Takeaways

• Rapid Rise and Favoritism: Qin Gang's swift ascent within China's Foreign Ministry was heavily influenced by his close relationship with Xi Jinping, bypassing traditional protocols and seniority.

• Challenges in Diplomacy: His tenure as Ambassador to the U.S. was marred by strained relations and personal unpopularity, highlighting the complexities of Sino-American diplomacy.

• Mysterious Disappearance: The vague official explanation for Qin's disappearance raises questions about underlying political dynamics and possible security concerns.

• Investigative Reporting: Ling Ling Wei's persistent investigation sheds light on China's secretive political environment, revealing cracks and hidden narratives within the elite.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the first episode of "The Missing Minister: The Vanishing of Qin Gang." For a comprehensive understanding, listeners are encouraged to engage with the full podcast series.

Transcript

[Ryan]

Hey, it's Ryan. We'll be back on Thursday with a new episode to start off 2025, but until then, we wanted to remind you of this series we made earlier this year. It's a story about the mysterious downfall of China's missing foreign minister. Kate and our reporting team take you through one of the most intriguing political mysteries to come out of China in years. I think you'll find it fascinating. There are three episodes and they've all been linked in the show notes. I hope you'll give it a listen. Here's episode one.

[Ling Ling Wei]

The last day that Qin Gang, China's then foreign minister, was seen in public was on June 25th of last year. It was a hot, humid day in Beijing, and according to his official schedule, Qin spent some of that day carrying out his foreign minister duties as usual. Mostly this meant meeting other foreign ministers.

[Kate Linebaugh]

We know from Qin Gang's official schedule that he met with Sri Lanka's Foreign Minister.

[Ling Ling Wei]

That's chief China correspondent Ling Ling Wei. Qin and the Sri Lankan Foreign Minister discussed China's Belt and Road initiative. They shook hands and snapped a picture in front of their country's flags.

[Kate Linebaugh]

We know he met with the Vietnamese foreign Minister and that they talked about the Vietnamese Prime Minister's visit to China.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Another handshake, another picture in front of another set of flags.

[Kate Linebaugh]

And Chenggang also met with a representative from Russia. One of China's key partners, Russia's deputy Foreign Minister Andriy Rudenko, was in town that day.

[Ling Ling Wei]

A photo from the day shows Chin and Rudenko striding out of a building mid conversation. Chin is tall with rimless glasses. He looks relaxed and confident. And he had reason to be. Chin was Foreign Minister, the country's top diplomat. He was a member of the upper echelon of the political elite, and he had the backing of China's powerful leader, Xi Jinping. Chin had risen high and was expected to keep rising. But instead, after that day in June, Qin disappeared.

[Kate Linebaugh]

All of a sudden, you know, people kind of realized they hadn't seen Qin Gang on tv, on state media reports, anywhere. He just sort of like vanished all of a sudden from public view. He even skipped some meetings, very important international meetings. So that basically triggered a lot of speculation, especially on social media, about his whereabouts. What had happened to him?

[Ling Ling Wei]

Online, people were asking, where is Qin Gang? Foreign journalists in Beijing began pressing China's Foreign Ministry for answers.

[Ryan]

Does the Foreign Ministry have any updates on Qin Gang and when he will return to duties?

[Danny Russell]

Is he the subject of a corruption probe?

[Ling Ling Wei]

The Foreign Ministry didn't provide any clear explanation. And now, over a year after Chingang vanished, he still hasn't been seen in public. We asked the Foreign Ministry about Qin's whereabouts and the circumstances of his disappearance and they had no comment. When Chen Gang disappeared, do you remember what your reaction was?

[Kate Linebaugh]

I was really shocked. This is a guy who was so trusted by Xi Jinping, so close to him. What could he have done wrong? That was my biggest question. What heck did he do?

[Ling Ling Wei]

Such a swift fall of a protege of Xi Jinping. Ling Ling says it stood out as unusual. She couldn't explain it, so she started digging. Over the last year, she's spoken to dozens of people.

[Kate Linebaugh]

Hey guys, I'm about to go into a meeting.

[Ling Ling Wei]

And she's been reporting back to us along the way.

[Kate Linebaugh]

I do think we're really on the right track here and obviously the story is extremely sensitive and we want to exercise extreme caution to make sure. I've been a reporter for the journal for 16 years. This really has been the hardest nut to crack so far.

[Ling Ling Wei]

This story is about Chin Gang, a Chinese political star whose rise was abruptly cut short. But it's also a story about the man who elevated him in the first place. The man who has ruled China with an iron fist for over a decade, Xi Jinping. And what we've discovered gives us a peek behind the veil of one of the most opaque and powerful governments in the world. From the Journal, I'm Kate Linebaugh and this is the Missing Minister, A three part investigation into the mysterious disappearance of China's foreign minister. Episode 1 the Vanishing of Qin Gang this episode of the Journal is brought to you by Global X. Since 2008, Global X ETFs has been committed to empowering investors with unexplored intelligence solutions. Global X specializes in exchange traded funds that offer exposure to the artificial intelligence ecosystem, including themes like data centers, robotics, semiconductors and cloud computing. To learn more about Global X's entire suite of ETFs from covered calls, fixed income, emerging markets and more, visit globalxetf's.com When Chingang vanished, he was at the peak of his power. At 57, he was one of China's youngest ever foreign ministers. But we talked to someone who knew him when he was still at the very bottom of the political ladder.

[Sarah Lubman]

What I remember about Qin Gong was. First of all, I remember him as tall, but I'm pretty short, so that's relative.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Sarah Lubman was a reporter in China back in the late 80s and early 90s. She worked at an American news agency called UPI, covering, among other things, the aftermath of the Tiananmen square crackdown. It was at UPI that Sarah got to know the future foreign minister. Chin was in his 20s then, a low level government worker assigned to UPI. His job was to help journalists like Sarah navigate China, to translate book trips and monitor Chinese news.

[Sarah Lubman]

I do remember him as a very kind of lanky guy. I also remember him as kind of arrogant. So he had not a chip on his shoulder. But there was just something about his manner that suggested that this job was beneath him, which he may have been because his English was really good. He was clearly very smart. He was clearly very ambitious.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Sarah and Qin worked together in a converted apartment in one of Beijing's diplomatic compounds.

[Sarah Lubman]

It was a long kind of railroad apartment, right, with two rooms next to each other. And chingon would sit in one room, and the correspondents were in the other room where all the computer monitors were. And when we wanted to watch the news, we would go into that next room.

[Ling Ling Wei]

But Sarah says translators like Qin weren't just there to be helpful. They were also there to keep an eye on UPI's journalists.

[Sarah Lubman]

We just assumed that they were reporting back on what we were doing.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Really?

[Danny Russell]

Yeah.

[Sarah Lubman]

I mean, that was just assumed then. Look, they were government assigned, and I'm sure that they were there. They were there to support us, but also to keep tabs on us. I have no doubt. The one concrete memory I have of working with him is of watching a newscast with him. And a phrase came up that I didn't know. And so I turned to him to say, hey, you know, can you tell me what they just said? And he was kind of tipped back in his chair, you know, I mean, he was not leaning forward intently listening to the news. He was kind of tipped back in his chair, like, yeah, I can't believe I need to do this. But when I turned to him and said, hey, what did they say? He snapped to attention. He tipped his chair back forward and told me immediately what they'd said. So clearly, even when he was just half listening, like, you got the sense this was a job he could do in his sleep.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Sarah realized even then that Qin was operating below his potential, that given the chance, he could go far. She just didn't realize how far.

[Sarah Lubman]

When he became foreign minister, a friend of mine who'd been a reporter in China called me and said, do you remember Qin gong from the UPI bureau? And I said, yeah. And he said, that's the foreign minister. And I was just flabbergasted. That that same kind of gangly, kind of cocky kid was now Foreign Minister.

[Ling Ling Wei]

There's an expectation about how you rise through the Chinese political ranks, and it's not generally a fast process. You're supposed to put in your time and move up rung by rung. That's how most of Qin's career at the Foreign Ministry went. He did various stints at the Chinese Embassy in London and he worked as a Foreign Ministry spokesperson in Beijing, where he responded to reporters questions with scripted talking points. But then something happened that would put Qin on the fast track. He got a new job and a new boss, one who did things differently. In 2012, Xi Jinping became General Secretary of the Communist Party and the following year, President of China.

[Kate Linebaugh]

Xi Jinping is the most powerful, the most forceful Chinese leader in recent decades. Ever since he came to power in late 2012, Xi Jinping basically has embarked on this never ending effort to centralize power into his own hands. Xi Jinping basically made himself the chairman of everything in China.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Soon after Xi came to power, Qin landed a job that would put him in close proximity to Xi. In 2014, Qin became Xi's Chief of Protocol at the Foreign Ministry.

[Danny Russell]

Protocol shouldn't be confused with sort of which fork to use at dinner and whether the fish knife goes on the left or the right of the butter knife. It's organizing the movements of the leaders and the moving parts of a visit.

[Ling Ling Wei]

That's Danny Russell. He was a diplomat at the State Department during the Obama administration and he worked with Chin a few times when Chin was Chief of protocol. Like in 2015 when Chin accompanied Xi on his first official visit to the U.S. do you remember any stories from Qin Gang at that time?

[Danny Russell]

I do have a recollection of Qin Gang and the Chinese team being really passionate and angst ridden over the possibility that there could be a protest that would, you know, impinge on the eyeballs of Xi Jinping, of the leader. I think there was almost a sense of terror that if something as embarrassing and politically shameful as that were to occur, that they were going down with the ship.

[Ryan]

Wow.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Another person familiar with the rough and tumble of official visits is former US diplomat Rick Waters.

[Ryan]

These visits are traumatic for those of us who have to organize them. The U.S. team rolls in heavy with a few dozen planes. You're carefully choreographed effort immediately falls apart at first contact with reality.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Rick was working at the State Department when tensions with China were ratcheting up during the Trump administration. He helped organize President Trump's visit to Beijing in 2017. And there was one moment during that visit that stuck with him. It happened when Chinese security stopped a US military aide from entering a meeting room.

[Ryan]

You know, we were in the Great hall of the people for the meeting with Xi Jinping and the security details got into a giant fist fight right outside the meeting room.

[Ling Ling Wei]

What?

[Ryan]

Yeah. And you know, at the time there was a mid level Foreign Ministry official named Chin Gang and he and I were the only ones in the room. And we were trying to pull these people off of each other as they were in a full blown brawl 10ft outside the meeting room where Xi and Trump were together.

[Ling Ling Wei]

And on that visit, did you notice anything about how Chin handled that moment and sort of the tensions between Trump and Xi at the time?

[Ryan]

Well, he didn't manage the policy. Right. He was often not in the innermost room when they were talking about policy either. But you know, what I saw is that the parts of the system that organize visits, they had a certain deference to him. And I think it's because they knew that he was an up and comer in the system and someone to whom they needed to be responsive because he was clearly empowered by Xi's office to manage what was a very important event for them. At the time.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Qin wasn't in the room where the big policy decisions were being made. Not yet. But as chief of protocol, he earned Xi's trust. And with Xi's backing, he would be catapulted to the highest echelons of China's political system and on to the global stage. That's next. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. The AI platform for business transformation. AI is only as powerful as the platform built into Enter ServiceNow. It puts AI to work for people, for employees, for developers, and even your customers, removing frustration and supercharging productivity. On our intelligent platform, AI isn't just a promise. It's happening today. That's why the world works with ServiceNow. Tap the banner to learn more or visit servicenow.com aiforpeople In 2021, Qin Gang arrived in Washington D.C. to start a new job. It's a great honor for me to be Ambassador of the People's Republic of China to the United States of America. Standing between Chinese and American flags, Qin made his first remarks as China's new man in dc. I firmly believe that the door of China US relations, which is already open, cannot and should not be closed. This is the trend of the world, the call of the times and the will of the people. For Qin, it was an important promotion. Just Three years earlier, he'd been Chief of Protocol at the Foreign Ministry. Now he was Beijing's voice in Washington.

[Kate Linebaugh]

That appointment in 2021 was quite a surprise decision.

[Ling Ling Wei]

That's our colleague Ling Ling again.

[Kate Linebaugh]

Qin Gang didn't have much of a US Experience and the thinking was based on officials familiar with the matter. The reason why Xi Jinping picked him for such an important job was mostly because Xi Jinping really trusted him. He believed that Qin Gang would be able to present China's story well in Washington.

[Ling Ling Wei]

But to present that story, Qin Gang had to build relationships in D.C. and that was tough going.

[Danny Russell]

He was very unpopular among the policy people and even quite a few of the business leaders.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Here's Danny, one of the former diplomats we heard from earlier.

[Danny Russell]

I think they found him arrogant, even impolite, and at other times highly formulaic. I don't know how he was dealing with his in government counterparts. In part because they refused to meet with him for the better part of a year while he was in Washington. That's another story.

[Ling Ling Wei]

What? Why did they refuse to meet with him?

[Danny Russell]

I'm maybe putting it a little bit strongly, but you know, he arrived during a very chilly moment in U. S.

[Ling Ling Wei]

China relations at that time. President Biden had recently come into the White House. But the change in administration didn't change much about the U. S. China relationship. The two countries were still at odds over a long list of issues. Taiwan, trademark, espionage. And the disputes were getting personal.

[Danny Russell]

The new U.S. ambassador to China, Nicholas Burns, was getting beastly treatment by the Chinese who just shut him out mercilessly. And I think in some circles there was certainly a view that said, you know what, let's give them a taste of their own medicine.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Let's a little quid pro quo, right?

[Danny Russell]

Try a little quid pro quo. Here's some reciprocity for you, buddy.

[Ling Ling Wei]

A State Department spokesperson said Ambassador Burns has had good access to Chinese officials during his tenure, but that there have been times when Chinese officials have refused to meet with him. Chin was trying to find his footing in the D.C. scene. But even amongst his colleagues, Chin wasn't always popular.

[Kate Linebaugh]

He was known as a very strict manager, very hesitant, hands on manager. You know, he would publicly scold an underling for very little mistakes. So that kind of style earned him some resentment from others within the Foreign Ministry. And it was also well known that he has had some women issues.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Qin was married and he had a son. But according to Ling Ling's sources, Qin also had affairs.

[Kate Linebaugh]

You know, that's what we have heard from officials back in China. But at least you know, back then, as long as you had the top leaders trust, all those issues were negligible. It didn't matter you had women issues or other issues, as long as you had the top leaders trust, you're fine.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Chin did have Xi's trust. So much so that at the end of 2022, less than two years into Qin's ambassadorship, Xi handed him another promotion. Foreign Minister, one of China's most important political posts.

[Kate Linebaugh]

And this is a fun part. Most of the time when he was in dc, he couldn't even get meetings with Biden officials. So after the promotion, people were like calling him and trying to meet with him.

[Ling Ling Wei]

His lonely Washington life was suddenly transformed with people returning his phone calls.

[Kate Linebaugh]

Exactly, exactly.

[Danny Russell]

That appointment was truly mind boggling to me. I was kind of stunned. And I think many of my friends and counterparts in the Chinese Foreign Ministry were similarly surprised. This was a case where Xi Jinping just reached into the system and plucked a loyal aide, some might say a toady, not out of obscurity, but certainly disrupted the sort of natural order, the protocol order in terms of age and service seniority.

[Ling Ling Wei]

In fact, Ling Ling's reporting shows Qin wasn't the Foreign Ministry's first pick for the job. He wasn't even their second or third pick.

[Kate Linebaugh]

Based on our reporting, the foreign policy establishment in China recommended three names to the top leader, Xi Jinping, you know, who should be the next Foreign Minister. Chen Gang wasn't one of them. So in the end, it was really Shi Jinping himself who decided to name him Foreign Minister. So Xi gave him the job.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Then a few months later, Xi tacked on yet another fancy title. He made Qin not just Foreign Minister, but State Counselor, basically elevating Chin to a senior position in his cabinet. Qin's predecessor had waited five years before getting that promotion.

[Danny Russell]

That was really extraordinary.

[Ling Ling Wei]

What did that promotion say to you?

[Danny Russell]

What it told me is that China had now entered an imperial era in which the leader, call him General Secretary, call him President, call him Emperor, doesn't really matter. The singular leader now makes all of these personnel decisions, makes all decisions. So I think I took it much less as a story about Qin Gang and much more as a revelation about Xi Jinping.

[Ling Ling Wei]

So then it's July of last year. Qin's been Foreign Minister for about half a year, and people start to notice that he's sort of gone missing. What happens from there?

[Kate Linebaugh]

Initially, the Foreign Ministry was very silent on questions about his whereabouts. Then one day in July, the spokesperson at the Foreign Ministry basically said he was absent for, quote, unquote, health reasons.

[Ling Ling Wei]

What did you think of that?

[Kate Linebaugh]

In Chinese system, health reasons are often cited for officials who have, you know, basically fallen out of favor or gone into some kind of trouble. So the House reason explanations to me did sound like a cover for something else, something more problematic.

[Ling Ling Wei]

And then in September of last year, Ling Ling got a scoop. She reported that the Chinese government had conducted an investigation into Qin and senior Chinese officials were briefed on it.

[Kate Linebaugh]

Those high ranking officials were told that Qin's removal from the foreign minister job was due to, quote, lifestyle issues, which basically is a common party euphemism for sexual misconduct. They were specifically told that he had affair while serving as the Chinese Ambassador to the United States.

[Ling Ling Wei]

And did that explanation make sense to you?

[Kate Linebaugh]

It didn't make a lot of sense to me because high ranking officials in China, they have affairs all the time. It's never the reason why someone would get into serious trouble like this. There must have been something else.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Something else? When Lingling published her story about Qin's investigation last year, she didn't know what that something else was.

[Kate Linebaugh]

It was such a difficult story to report out given the fact that, you know, China doesn't have any kind of transparency or accountability to speak of.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Chinese politics are steeped in secrecy. Even people within the Chinese government might only know parts of Qin's story, the parts the leadership wanted them to know. But Lingling kept digging and she did have one thread to pull on. According to her sources, senior Chinese officials were told that Qin had been investigated because of an affair. But not just any affair. They were told that this affair could have compromised China's national security.

[Kate Linebaugh]

My ears perked up. It was very intriguing. What could have affair possibly compromised China's national security? Turns out it all had to do with this one woman. The woman he had affair with. Her name is Fu Xiaotian.

[Ling Ling Wei]

Fu Xiaotian, a rising star in her own profession with friends in high places who would face a downfall just as mysterious as Qin gang's. That's next time on the Missing Minister. Listen to episodes two and three now. They're already in your feed. The Missing Minister is part of the Journal, which is a co production of Spotify in the Wall Street Journal. I'm your host, Kate Linebaugh. This series was produced by Annie Minoff and Alan Rodriguez Espinosa. It was reported by Maria Byrne and Ling Ling Wei. It was edited, edited by Maria Byrne. Mary Mathis is our fact checker. Sound design and mixing by Griffin Tanner. Music direction by Nathan Singapak. Music in this episode by Nathan Singapak and Blue Dot Sessions. Our theme music is by so Wiley and remixed by Nathan Singapak. Special thanks to Katherine Brewer, Elena Czerny, Laura Morris, Falana Patterson, Sarah Platt, Heather Rogers and Aruna Vishwanatha. Thanks for listening.