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- [00:06]
Jessica Mendoza
When it comes to artificial intelligence and the moral and ethical issues it poses, philosophers, engineers, tech executives, podcasters, substack writers. Everyone seems to have an opinion.
- [00:17]
Unknown Speaker 1
What are the biggest ethical challenges when.
- [00:21]
Margarita Stancari
It comes to artificial intelligence?
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Unknown Speaker 2
AI is coming for your job.
- [00:25]
Margarita Stancari
AI models can contribute to climate change.
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Unknown Speaker 2
Modern AI is us building God.
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Jessica Mendoza
Mark my words. AI is far more dangerous than nukes. I think if this technology goes wrong.
- [00:35]
Margarita Stancari
It can go quite wrong.
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Aidan Gomez
Is generative AI potentially an existential threat.
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Margarita Stancari
To the human species?
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Archbishop Edgar Pena Parra
I think that's what I've been saying, yes.
- [00:43]
Jessica Mendoza
Among those concerned about AI and its impact on humanity is the new Pope, Leo xiv. He's only been in office for less than two months, but he's already made AI one of his top issues.
- [00:57]
Margarita Stancari
Two days into his reign, he gave a speech to cardinals when he essentially kind of outlined what the priorities of his papacy would be.
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Jessica Mendoza
Our colleague Margarita Stancari is the Wall Street Journal's correspondent in Rome.
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Margarita Stancari
And that is when he first mentioned the word artificial intelligence. So artificial intelligence is not just a second thought for the Pope. He is putting the issue front and center of his papacy.
- [01:24]
Jessica Mendoza
What did you think when you heard that AI was going to be such a central theme for the Vatican under this Pope?
- [01:29]
Margarita Stancari
I thought it was fascinating that you had, you know, the latest cutting edge technology interacting with this 2000 year old institution that normally we do not associate with technology and that, you know, is mostly run by rather old men who are not known for being particularly technologically savvy. But there is one topic on which they overlap and it's, you know, the future of humanity.
- [02:02]
Jessica Mendoza
Welcome to the Journal, our show about money, business and power. I'm Jessica Mendoza. It's Wednesday, June 25th. Coming up on the show, the Catholic Church takes on AI.
- [02:29]
Unknown Speaker 2
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- [02:56]
Unknown Speaker 3
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- [03:35]
Jessica Mendoza
If you're surprised that the Vatican is becoming a leading voice on AI. That makes sense. The Vatican hasn't historically been considered very tech savvy.
- [03:46]
Margarita Stancari
Pope Francis, who died recently, he wasn't known for being particularly tech savvy at all. In fact, he joked early on in his papacy that he didn't really know how to use a computer.
- [03:59]
Jessica Mendoza
But that doesn't mean the Vatican hasn't been concerned about technology. During his tenure, Pope Francis warned that screens impact social relationships. And he was also troubled by the effects of social media on young people.
- [04:19]
Margarita Stancari
He was concerned that social media didn't leave anyone behind. And also he was worried about the miscommunication that traveled very easily on social media and the potential impact that could have on society.
- [04:35]
Jessica Mendoza
Pope Francis interest in AI began in 2019. That year, he met with Brad Smith, the president of Microsoft, at the Vatican.
- [04:44]
Margarita Stancari
So it goes into this meeting not really knowing much about Microsoft or its president or artificial intelligence, but they start talking about artificial intelligence. And that was probably the first serious conversation Francis had on the subject of artificial intelligence. And he was actually very quick to grasp the significance of it. So from that moment onwards, he starts really thinking about artificial intelligence and what it could mean for human dignity, what it could mean for workers whose jobs could be put at risk by this new technology, and also what is the responsibility of tech companies and governments, and also of the Vatican, to address this issue.
- [05:21]
Jessica Mendoza
Francis had always prioritized social justice issues like economic inequality. And his conversation with Brad Smith connected those priorities to AI's impact. In a church note, Vatican officials tied worries about AI to church teaching. They cited the Book of Genesis and wrote that the Christian tradition regards the gift of intelligence as an essential aspect of how humans are created in the image of God. And I guess I can understand how the Vatican came to this conclusion for itself, that it has concerns about, you know, the effect or the impact of artificial intelligence on humanity. But why would tech companies want to talk to the Pope or the Vatican about AI?
- [06:05]
Margarita Stancari
I think that's a really good question, and I think it's partly because the questions that they themselves were asking themselves were, were questions about, you know, what it means to be human and what these actually quite philosophical questions. And the Vatican is equipped to try to answer those questions because of its long tradition thinking about humanity in philosophical terms.
- [06:30]
Jessica Mendoza
Francis met more frequently with CEOs of AI companies like those from Anthropic Cohere and Terraquantum. Often these meetings involved robust debate about the benefits and risks of AI tech. Companies hoped to convince a leader in moral thought, the Pope, that AI wasn't the threat he thought it might be. But Francis continued to worry about AI, and in 2020, the Vatican published the Rome Call for AI Ethics.
- [06:55]
Margarita Stancari
It's essentially a pledge that kind of commits AI makers to stick to certain principles, such as privacy and human rights. But the key focus is really that AI should be at the service of humanity, not replace humanity or human skill completely. And I think what's interesting in terms of how these conversations have evolved is that I think there is a genuine mutual understanding that some guardrails need to be put in place. I think almost everyone, if not everyone, in the industry agrees with that general principle.
- [07:33]
Jessica Mendoza
Microsoft and IBM were the first companies to sign the pledge. Cisco, Qualcomm and others followed in 2023. Three years after that pledge, an AI image of the Pope wearing a huge white puffer jacket went viral. And later that year, Francis called for an international treaty to regulate AI. The treaty went a step further than the pledge and asked for a legally binding agreement, which some tech CEOs want to avoid. Francis continued to speak on these issues for the rest of his papacy.
- [08:06]
Margarita Stancari
Pope Francis, you know, when he addressed the summit of G7 leaders last year, he called AI fascinating and terrifying. And he openly called for an international binding treaty. He spoke of, you know, the technological dictatorship. So he was always willing to discuss these issues. But I think he was also quite firm about the need to put guardrails in place as soon as possible.
- [08:28]
Jessica Mendoza
Now there's a new pope, and he's got AI on his mind too.
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Margarita Stancari
Pope Leo is clearly picking up where Francis left off on this. And I think Leo really recognized that this was going to become even more central in his pontificate than had been in Francis's.
- [08:46]
Jessica Mendoza
That's next. One of the first things a new pope has to do is pick an official name. When Robert Francis Prevost was elected by the College of Cardinals in May, he chose the name Leo.
- [09:11]
Margarita Stancari
So when Pope Leo became pope, he said very clearly that it was an homage to his, the previous Pope Leo, Pope Leo xiii.
- [09:23]
Unknown Speaker 1
Today, the Church offers everyone its wealth of social doctrine to respond to another industrial revolution.
- [09:29]
Margarita Stancari
And so he was drawing a clear parallel between the social change that was happening in the 19th century in Europe and America, to the impact of the technological revolution today.
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Unknown Speaker 1
And the developments of artificial intelligence that pose new Challenges for the defense of human dignity, justice, and labor.
- [09:55]
Jessica Mendoza
Leo XIII reigned during the second Industrial revolution, a time of innovation, productivity and mass production. But it was also a time of inequality and for workers, a time of danger.
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Margarita Stancari
Pope Leo XIII was the first pope to systematically confront the social impact of the Industrial revolution. In fact, he was nicknamed the Pope of the Workers. And he pressed governments to pass laws to protect laborers from ruthless capitalists of his era. And he issued this groundbreaking encyclical called Rerum Novarum.
- [10:31]
Jessica Mendoza
An encyclical is a letter the Pope writes, usually addressed to bishops. Most of the time, encyclicals are about Catholic doctrine, but sometimes a pope writes an encyclical that has impacts beyond the Church. In this case, Rerum Novarum had massive influence on labor laws across Europe. And just as Leo XIII called to protect workers from the harms of industrialization, Leo XIV says he wants to protect workers as well, this time from AI.
- [11:00]
Margarita Stancari
And so by drawing a parallel with Leo xiii, Pope Leo XIV is clearly saying, this tech revolution is extremely important. I'm gonna put it front and center of my papacy. But he's also saying that one of his main concerns is about the social impact of this tech revolution. So human dignity or what it means for workers. And that is clearly what we expect him to focus on going forward.
- [11:24]
Jessica Mendoza
And one of the ways that he's showing how important AI is to him is this AI conference that was held last week. Some of it was hosted at the Vatican.
- [11:32]
Margarita Stancari
Yeah. So it was a two day AI conference, and the theme was ethics and governance. There were tech executives there, there were lawyers, there were professors. Many of them had never been to the Vatican before.
- [11:44]
Jessica Mendoza
One day of the conference was held at the Apostolic palace, one of the grandest buildings inside the Vatican.
- [11:51]
Margarita Stancari
And it was in this room called the Salareggia. And it's this incredible room with frescoes lining the wall commemorating some of the most important moments in papal history.
- [12:04]
Jessica Mendoza
One of those frescoes or murals depicts the Battle of lepanto in the 16th century, when European Catholic armies defeated the Ottoman Empire. Another fresco shows an emperor kneeling before a pope.
- [12:17]
Margarita Stancari
So these are all, you know, a reminder also of the Church's past temporal power. And I spoke to one tech executive, and she was saying, you know, this is an ultimate power move by the Vatican. And she was saying, you know, this is intended to remind us of the potential of human intelligence. And she remarked on how, you know, this was made, after all, without computers, let alone AI. So, yeah, it was a very powerful reminder that, you know, they were dealing with a 2000 year old institution with profound moral authority. So it was a really kind of remarkable place to be in. And the conversations were also very interesting. You know, the discussions were centered around the ethics of AI, including some of the worst case scenarios.
- [12:59]
Jessica Mendoza
The two day conference was hosted by two law firms, Libra Legal Partners, which works with the Vatican, and Wilson Sonsini, which advises some of the world's largest tech companies. And one of the people who spoke at the conference was Aidan Gomez, the CEO of AI company Cohere. He said AI companies need direction from moral authorities on more than just the ways the technology can go wrong.
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Aidan Gomez
I think we have a tendency to focus on the negative and pessimism and seeing all the different ways that the technology can go wrong. But it's important to also see the opportunity to see what can be done in healthcare and education, in productivity, and to have guidance on that front and not just guidance on the downsides. So what I would love to see, not just from this conference, but in the dialogue more broadly, is steering the opportunities. I think that companies like mine that are building the technology need to be told where to focus our energy and which opportunities we want to realize first.
- [14:01]
Jessica Mendoza
In a message to conference attendees, Leo XIV said that AI has had positive effects, like improving research in healthcare and scientific discovery. But he emphasized the technology's risks, too.
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Margarita Stancari
He called for urgent need for serious reflection and ongoing discussion on the inherently ethical dimension of AI. He called for responsible governance. He said, you know, there are benefits, but we do have to weigh the benefits and the risks of this technology. And he warned against the possibility of misuse for selfish gain at the expense of others, or worse, to foment conflict and aggression. And, you know, he made a point that the Vatican often makes, which is that, you know, access to data, however extensive, must not be confused with intelligence.
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Jessica Mendoza
That skepticism of AI was something other clergy at the conference echoed.
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Margarita Stancari
I think some of the most pointed remarks were by an Italian bishop who spoke at the conference. He says, you know, he said, we all, we all agree on the need for regulation, but he did call it a gold rush. He says there's lots of money to be made from this. And he kind of dismissed the idea that companies could regulate themselves. And he did quote the proverb that, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions to drive home the point that there needs to be serious reflection about the consequence of this innovation.
- [15:22]
Jessica Mendoza
Did it seem like during this conference that either tech executives or the Catholic church were trying to sway each other or find some kind of common Ground.
- [15:32]
Margarita Stancari
I mean, there was definitely a sense that there is common ground, that there is a desire for guardrails. But the kind of one area of tension, although they were very diplomatic in how they interacted, is this idea of. Of regulation that ultimately, you know, everyone is very clear that it needs to be governance. But what that will look like, who will be the enforcers of that? I think there's no agreement, but also no agreement within the industry itself or between governments about how that should happen.
- [16:07]
Jessica Mendoza
Whether or not the new Pope would advocate for binding laws regulating AI like his predecessor did is still an open question. At the conference, Margarita asked Archbishop Edgar Pena Parra about how the Church sees its role in this moment. Pena para is the Vatican official in charge of AI.
- [16:25]
Margarita Stancari
And in this context, what role can the Vatican play? Why should tech companies care about what the Vatican says?
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Archbishop Edgar Pena Parra
I think that what we can share, what we can offer is what we are. We are not a business enterprise. We are what we are. A pope. Was Paul vi, Pope Montini. He says that the Church is expert in humanity. We are more than 2,000 years trying to do that, in some occasions better than others. But we can offer that. We can offer our expertise in humanity. And I mean in concrete things. This is education, health, and the poor people. We can, maybe we can help on that.
- [17:20]
Jessica Mendoza
What was the significance of this conference to you?
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Margarita Stancari
Well, it's significance because the Vatican is clearly saying that they want to be part of the conversation. And they're saying, you know, we want to be part of the conversation because this is a conversation we should all be having, not just here. The Pope is clearly putting it front and center. So it's not just for the direct impact the Vatican could have on these conversations, but making sure that world leaders take notice of it, and of course the tech world as well, that this is something we should all be paying attention to.
- [17:54]
Jessica Mendoza
This month, Microsoft President Brad Smith is expected to meet with Vatican officials in Rome. And Google is in touch with the Vatican about a potential meeting with Pope Leo, according to Wall Street Journal reporting. In your view, Margarita, does the Catholic Church have enough soft power today to influence laws around the world on AI regulation?
- [18:15]
Margarita Stancari
That's a great question, and I think in some parts of the world, maybe in others, not so much. I don't think there'll be a situation where, you know, the Vatican is kind of drafting laws, but I think it is unique in that it is an institution that has a very high profile, but it doesn't have temporal power. So it's not a government. Its power lies in its moral authority. And to what extent that moral authority can be persuasive depends on the desire of who's listening. And I think whether it can be influential or not is a big question. But it can help shape the conversation.
- [18:58]
Jessica Mendoza
Pope Leo ended his letter to the AI Conference with a benediction. The task set before you is not easy, but it is one of vital importance. In thanking you for your efforts now and in the future, I cordially invoke upon you and your families the divine blessings of wisdom, joy and peace. That's all for today. Wednesday, June 25 the Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Emily Glaser, Drew Hinshaw and Keech Hagee. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.