Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Journal – "Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals"

Introduction

In the February 24, 2025 episode of The Journal, hosted by Ryan Knutson and James Marson from The Wall Street Journal, the focus centers on a high-stakes geopolitical maneuver involving former President Donald Trump and Ukraine’s vast mineral resources. Titled "Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals," the episode delves into the intricate dynamics between the United States, Ukraine, and Russia, exploring how mineral rights have become a pivotal element in the ongoing conflict and peace negotiations.

Background: US Support to Ukraine

The episode begins by setting the stage with the historical context of US support for Ukraine. Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine three years prior, the United States, under the Biden administration, has provided billions in military and financial aid. This assistance was instrumental in enabling Ukraine to resist Russian advances, preserve its sovereignty, and reclaim certain territories. James Marson notes, “[The Biden administration] sent billions of dollars in aid and military equipment which helped Ukraine take back some territory and limit the gains of Russia's huge military” (04:15).

Trump Administration's Shift in Policy

Contrasting sharply with the Biden era, the episode highlights a paradigm shift under the Trump administration. Former President Donald Trump has taken a transactional approach to US foreign policy, seeking tangible returns for support extended to allies. This shift is exemplified by Trump's attempt to leverage US aid to Ukraine in exchange for access to the country's mineral resources. As Marson explains, “Trump has come in and said, that’s not how we’re going to do things anymore. We need something back for that. We need something concrete back for that” (01:28).

The Minerals Deal

a. What Are the Minerals?

Ukraine boasts some of Europe's largest reserves of critical minerals, including titanium, lithium, and rare earth elements. These minerals are indispensable for various industries, such as aerospace, renewable energy, and high-tech manufacturing. James Marson elaborates, “Ukraine says it has Europe’s largest reserves of titanium, which is used in manufacturing of aircraft and ships, and lithium, which is a key material in batteries” (07:37).

b. Why Trump Wants Them

The strategic importance of these minerals is underscored by their role in reducing dependence on China, which currently dominates the global market. As the Trump administration intensifies its trade war with China, securing alternative sources becomes a national priority. “Right now, China dominates the market for most of these minerals. And as Trump escalates his trade war with China, finding new sources has become more important” (08:12).

c. Origin of the Proposal

Interestingly, the proposal to exchange mineral rights for US support originated from Ukraine before Trump secured the Republican nomination. In September, Ukrainian officials sought to ensure continued US support by offering access to their mineral wealth. Marson states, “They came up with this idea of offering Ukraine’s mineral wealth to President Trump and saying, look, we’re grateful for the support that the US has given us” (08:34). However, the initial proposal lacked specifics, leading to uncertainties in its execution.

Ukraine's Response

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been cautious in responding to the US Treasury Secretary Scott Besant’s push for the mineral rights deal. Described as an attempt by the Trump administration to secure hundreds of billions in mineral deposits to repay US aid, the proposal was met with hesitation. "Zelenskyy took the document and he didn’t commit to signing it" (00:46). Zelenskyy has emphasized that any deal must include robust security guarantees, asserting, “I can't sell our state” (10:16) and “I don't want something that 10 generations of Ukrainians will have to pay back” (12:56).

Russia's Involvement

Russia has keenly observed the unfolding minerals dispute, viewing it as leverage in the broader conflict. Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov referenced the minerals in justifications for not withdrawing from occupied Ukrainian territories. Additionally, a Russian think tank prepared talking points suggesting that American companies could develop minerals in occupied Ukraine if a deal with Russia is reached. Marson highlights, “The Ukrainians aren’t the only ones who have something to offer Trump when it comes to minerals” (13:34).

Implications for Peace Talks

The minerals deal introduces a complex layer to the peace negotiations between the US and Russia. With Ukraine sidelined from direct talks, the US is simultaneously negotiating mineral rights while engaging in peace talks with Russia. Marson observes, “The peace talks that are happening at the moment are between the US and Russia. Ukraine is not a party of them” (15:40). This dual-track approach raises questions about the future of Ukraine’s sovereignty and the broader implications for international support.

Key Developments and Statements

• Scott Besant’s Push for the Deal: The episode opens with Treasury Secretary Besant’s attempt to secure mineral rights from Zelenskyy, depicting the transactional nature of the Trump administration’s foreign policy (00:05).

• Trump’s Assertions on Ending the War: During the 2024 presidential campaign, Trump pledged to swiftly end the Russia-Ukraine war, claiming he could achieve peace within a day (04:49 - 05:01).

• Trump’s Diplomatic Maneuvers: Trump engaged in a groundbreaking 90-minute phone call with Vladimir Putin, the first such conversation between a sitting US President and the Russian leader since the war began (05:40). Concurrently, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth stated that Ukraine should not expect to regain all its pre-2014 territories (06:14).

• Escalation of Pressure on Zelenskyy: Following secretive negotiations in Saudi Arabia, Trump accused Zelenskyy of misusing US aid and labeled him a dictator, intensifying the political pressure on Ukraine (06:55 - 07:27).

Conclusions and Future Outlook

The episode concludes with a nuanced perspective on the potential outcomes of the minerals deal. While Ukrainian officials have suggested a positive direction, President Trump has indicated that a deal is imminently close, albeit without detailed terms (17:39). The overarching narrative reflects a shift in US foreign policy towards a more transactional and deal-oriented approach under Trump, contrasting sharply with previous administrations’ emphasis on support without immediate returns.

As negotiations continue, the interplay between mineral interests, security guarantees, and international diplomacy will remain a critical factor in shaping the future of the Russia-Ukraine conflict and US foreign relations. The Journal underscores the precarious balance Ukraine must maintain to secure its sovereignty while navigating the complex demands of major global powers.

Notable Quotes

• James Marson: “We were giving this money to Ukraine for years, but Trump has come in and said, that’s not how we’re going to do things anymore. We need something back for that.” (01:28)

• Pete Hegseth: “We want, like you, a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine, but we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.” (06:14)

• Donald Trump: “A dictator without elections. Zelensky better move fast or he's not going to have a country left.” (06:55)

• Zelenskyy: “I can't sell our state. I don't want something that 10 generations of Ukrainians will have to pay back.” (10:16, 12:56)

• James Marson: “Ukraine has been one of the success stories of US foreign policy… Now we have President Trump has come in with a different attitude.” (16:22)

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Additional Information

The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal, focusing on the most important stories about money, business, and power. For merchandise and more, visit WSJ Shop.

Transcript

[Ryan Knudsen]

Earlier this month, U.S. treasury Secretary Scott Besant flew to Ukraine. He was there to meet with the country's president, Volodymyr Zelensky. And there was something specific Besant wanted to talk with Zelenskyy about.

[James Marson]

And the account went like this. Besant pushed a piece of paper across the table, which was a deal, a deal for Ukraine to sign away to the US Rights to some of its mineral resources.

[Ryan Knudsen]

That's our colleague, James Marson, Ukraine bureau chief. The scene is based on a description from a US Republican lawmaker who spoke with Zelenskyy a few days later.

[James Marson]

He demanded that Zelenskyy sign it. Zelenskyy took a look and said he'd discuss it with his team. Besant then pushed it closer to Zelenskyy and said, you really need to sign this. He then said that people back in Washington would be upset if Zelenskyy didn't. Zelenskyy took the document and he didn't commit to signing it.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The Trump administration was asking for the rights to hundreds of billions of dollars worth of Ukrainian mineral deposits. It says the minerals would repay the US for its military and financial aid to Ukraine during the war. And now the mineral rights have become a major focus for the Trump administration as it pushes to end the war.

[James Marson]

What you see here is a microcosm of how Trump sees the world. We were giving this money to Ukraine for years, but Trump has come in and said, that's not how we're going to do things anymore. We need something back for that. We need something concrete back for that. For example, access to Ukrainian minerals.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Welcome to the Journal. Our show about money, business and power. I'm Ryan KNUDSEN. It's Monday, February 24th. Coming up on the show, why the Trump administration wants Ukraine's minerals and what it could mean for peace talks.

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[Ryan Knudsen]

Today is the three year anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Since the war began, Russia has killed tens of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians and razed dozens of cities. Tens of thousands of Russian soldiers have also died at the beginning of the war.

[James Marson]

The Biden administration didn't expect Ukraine to last long. It thought that the Russian army, very powerful big army, would quickly be able to seize Kyiv and probably unseat the Ukrainian government and insert a puppet government. That didn't happen. The Ukrainian army, with the great help of civilians who took up arms, managed to stop the Russian army, prevent them taking Kyiv and put preserve the independence the sovereignty of their country.

[Ryan Knudsen]

During the Biden administration, the U.S. sent billions of dollars in aid and military equipment which helped Ukraine take back some territory and limit the gains of Russia's huge military.

[Pete Hegseth]

We cannot grow weary, we cannot look away and we will not let up.

[Donald Trump]

On our support for Ukraine.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Trump's relationship with Ukraine has been more rocky. It was a phone call between Zelenskyy and Trump that led to Trump's first impeachment back in 2019. During the 2024 presidential race, Trump campaigned on ending the war.

[Donald Trump]

Before I even arrive at the Oval Office, I will have the disastrous war between Russia and Ukraine settled and he.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Said he would do it fast and.

[Donald Trump]

It will take me no longer than one day.

[James Marson]

What we've seen since President Trump came to office is that the script has been flipped. We've seen an outreach Putin. Trump is engaging with Putin to try to reach a peace deal and with Zelensky. Instead of the support which we've seen before, he has criticized him very, very heavily and he has demanded payback for the support that has been given so far and clearly conditioned any future support on some kind of payback from the Ukrainian side.

[Ryan Knudsen]

The way Trump has gone about trying to end the war is very different than the Biden administration. Mainly Trump has been trying to do it by putting a lot more pressure on Ukraine and about two weeks ago things really ramped up. The first thing that happened was that Trump had a 90 minute phone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the first time a sitting US President spoke with Putin since the war. On the same day, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth told allies that Ukraine shouldn't expect to get all its territory back from Russia and that Ukraine should not be allowed to join NATO.

[Pete Hegseth]

We want, like you, a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine, but we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.

[Ryan Knudsen]

A few days later, the Trump administration met with Russian envoys in Saudi Arabia to discuss a peace deal. Ukraine and its European allies weren't included. Zelenskyy denounced the talks and said he would not accept a peace deal if his country wasn't involved. After this, Trump escalated attacks on Zelenskyy in Ukraine, saying that the democratically elected Zelenskyy was a dictator and that Ukraine, not Russia, started the war.

[Donald Trump]

A dictator without elections. Zelensky better move fast or he's not going to have a country left. Got to move. You should have ended it. Three years. You should have never started it. You could have made a deal. I could have made a deal.

[James Marson]

After this, things escalated quickly. President Trump said that Zelensky misused U.S. aid, and he criticized him strongly for not signing this minerals deal, which he'd been presented with by Secretary Besant a few days earlier.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So let's talk about that minerals deal. What are the minerals? Why are they valuable, and why would President Trump want them?

[James Marson]

So Ukraine says it has Europe's largest reserves of titanium, which is used in manufacturing of aircraft and ships, and lithium, which is a key material in batteries. It's also got deposits of rare earths, which are used in high tech industries, defense industries, renewable energy. So Ukraine has got significant reserves of these rare minerals, minerals that are critical to modern and future industries, and that's why Trump is interested in them.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Right now, China dominates the market for most of these minerals. And as Trump escalates his trade war with China, finding new sources has become more important. The idea to do a deal with the US Over Ukraine's minerals was actually first brought up by Ukraine this past September, before Trump was elected.

[James Marson]

So when it was clear that President Trump was going to be the Republican candidate in the presidential election, the Ukrainians were thinking of ways to make sure that the US Maintained its support for Ukraine. Knowing that Trump is a lover of making deals, they came up with this idea of offering Ukraine's mineral wealth to President Trump and saying, look, we're grateful for the support that the US has given us. We want to make sure that the US Is getting something back for that. And so we want to give the US Give US Companies access to these minerals as kind of a security and economic deal that will be good for both sides.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Ukraine's proposal didn't have specifics, and it's unclear how it evolved into Treasury Secretary Besant's offer. The thing is, many of these minerals haven't been mined yet, and an estimated 20 to 40% of them are in Russian occupied parts of Ukraine. And even though Ukraine initially brought up the idea, Zelenskyy was still surprised when Besant pushed that piece of paper across the table.

[James Marson]

We spoke with an aide to Zelenskyy who said this level of deal, a multi billion dollar deal, is the kind of thing that would be signed on the level of presidents. This is something that Zelenskyy would eventually sign with Trump. And I think that undoubtedly is one of Ukraine's goals. If you sign a big deal that would be a security and economic deal that Ukraine wants, then you would do it with President Trump.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So how did Zelenskyy respond to Besant's offer?

[James Marson]

So the Ukrainians have said all along they are open to a deal, they're interested in a deal, they want to do a deal with the US but they didn't like this initial proposal. They saw it as a demand for Ukrainian resources without the main thing that the Ukrainians are looking for, which is security guarantees. Zelenskyy said this isn't a serious conversation. I can't sell our state. So he saw it as a demand that he sell the wealth of his nation without what he needs most in return, which is security guarantees.

[Ryan Knudsen]

What it might take for Ukraine to agree is after the.

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[Ryan Knudsen]

Despite Ukraine's reservations about a minerals deal with the US deal, talks intensified over the past few days. Still, there's a ways to go. At a press conference on Sunday, Zelenskyy said his country still needed better terms in order to move forward.

[James Marson]

He repeated his earlier criticisms of what was on offer. He said any deal had to include security guarantees for Ukraine and that Trump's demands for payback for military and financial aid provided during the war far outstripped the $100 billion that the US had actually provided.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Zelensky also said that the current US offer demanded ruinous financial contributions and said, quote, I don't want something that 10 generations of Ukrainians will have to pay back. U.S. defense Secretary Pete Hegseth also discussed the deal on Fox on Sunday.

[Pete Hegseth]

Zelenskyy should come to the table because this economic partnership is an important thing for the future of his country, and we hope that he will very soon.

[Ryan Knudsen]

Russia has taken note of the minerals dispute and has started making references to it. Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said recently that the minerals were a reason Russia should not withdraw from occupied parts of Ukraine.

[James Marson]

My colleague Yaroslav Trofimov got hold of a document, some talking points that had been prepared by a Russian think tank for the Kremlin. And one of the talking points was the idea to tell the Americans, your companies will be welcome to develop rare mineral deposits in occupied Ukraine if you make a deal with us.

[Ryan Knudsen]

In other words, the Ukrainians aren't the only ones who have something to offer Trump when it comes to minerals. The US has been such an important ally to Ukraine. So is it risky for Zelenskyy not to go along with this and to risk upsetting the Trump administration?

[James Marson]

I think the fact that Ukraine is not prepared to sign this deal speaks to a number of things. First of all, it would be giving away some of your most important assets. This would be terrible domestically for Zelenskyy. Not only would it be, in his telling, a bad deal for his country, it would be terrible domestically for Zelenskyy. He and his country have stood firm for three years against Russia, against Russia's invasion. Now there's this demand. You know, Russia demands that he gives up the country. Now Trump is demanding that he gives up an important asset of the country so he can't come across as weak and simply capitulating.

[Ryan Knudsen]

James says a lot depends on what Trump wants from Ukraine.

[James Marson]

Does he want peace at any cost? If he wants peace at any cost, he can make a deal with Putin. He can say to Putin, take Ukraine now. In that case, Ukraine would continue fighting for sure. But people in his administration have said that the Trump administration wants Ukraine to preserve its independence, its sovereignty, that he's going to carry out tough negotiations with Putin. And so then at some point, you're going to get into tough negotiations about how Putin sees the future of Ukraine.

[Ryan Knudsen]

So what does this signal about the way peace talks might unfold?

[James Marson]

So the peace talks that are happening at the moment are between the US And Russia. Ukraine is not a party of them. Now, Trump has said that Ukraine will eventually take part in them. But you have the peace talks going on there with the US Trying to get to a deal with Russia, but at the same time, you have the US Negotiating with Ukraine to try to get the mineral deal.

[Ryan Knudsen]

It seems like this is a reflection of how Trump views America's role in the world, which is to be transactional to do deals with different countries that are in America's interest or not.

[James Marson]

That's right. Ukraine has been one of the success stories of US foreign policy, and that includes US aid policy over the last 20, 30 years. Ukraine gained its independence in 1991 from the Soviet Union and slowly, gradually became more and more pro Western. It fought for its independence. Its people have carried out two revolutions to maintain its right to choose its own president and to be independent of Russian influence. The US has provided billions of dollars that has helped develop Ukraine's economy. Now we have. President Trump has come in with a different attitude. Trump says we should get something back in return. And so that is how the minerals can play into the peace talks. Because if Trump feels he isn't getting anything from this support for Ukraine, then that support allies, Ukrainians worry, will no longer be there, which will strengthen Putin's hand on the battlefield. And therefore, in talks.

[Ryan Knudsen]

On Monday, Ukrainian officials suggested that the deal is moving in a more positive direction. At a press conference, President Trump said a deal was very close. In what form is not yet clear. That's all for today. Monday, February 24th. The Journal is a co production of Spotify and the Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Alexander Ward, Alan Cullison and Ian Lovett. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.