A Casual Culinary Chat About Dried Beans with Steve Sando

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: A Casual Culinary Chat About Dried Beans with Steve Sando

Release Date: March 19, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast, hosted by The Joy of Creation Production House, the Rombauer family welcomes Steve Sando, founder of Rancho Gordo, to delve deep into the world of dried beans. Hosted by John Becker, Megan Scott, and Shannon Larson, this episode offers a wealth of insights into heirloom beans, sustainable farming, and versatile cooking techniques.

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1. Welcome and Weekly Cooking Updates

The episode kicks off with the hosts sharing their recent culinary endeavors. Shannon Larson praises her husband John's baking feats, highlighting his "two delicious walnut rye loaves" made from a tartine recipe (02:10). Megan Scott shares her passion for bean soup, emphasizing the importance of versatility in cooking with Rancho Gordo’s baby green limas (03:05). John Becker discusses their "old pumpkin biscuits" from the recipe club, setting a warm, communal tone for the discussion.

2. Introducing Steve Sando and Rancho Gordo

Megan introduces Steve Sando as the founder of Rancho Gordo, a company dedicated to growing and sourcing heirloom beans. "Steve, we're so excited to have you on the show today," Megan welcomes him warmly (04:45).

3. The Allure of Heirloom Beans

Steve shares his journey with Rancho Gordo, highlighting his love for beans and their cultural significance. "Beans, although you have tasted them many times, because these are the...just really hard," Steve explains the intimidating nature of dried beans and the joy of mastering their preparation (35:45).

He discusses various heirloom varieties, such as Rio Zappe and Domingo Rojo, and emphasizes their unique flavors. "Good Mother Stallard is very hard... my favorite bean," Steve admits his fondness for this particular variety despite its cultivation challenges (23:35).

4. Rancho Gordo’s Bean Club and Business Growth

Steve elaborates on Rancho Gordo’s Bean Club, noting its exponential growth. "There are like 26,000 people in it," he marvels at the club’s popularity and the logistical challenges it presents (28:11). This surge underscores the increasing appreciation for quality, heirloom beans among home cooks and culinary enthusiasts.

He discusses the impact of tariffs on his business, emphasizing the importance of sustainable and culturally respectful sourcing. "We're going to use that tariff money to develop this business," Steve explains his strategy to navigate these economic challenges (33:17).

5. Sustainable Farming and Cultural Preservation

Steve delves into the intricacies of growing heirloom beans, emphasizing their lower yields and the dedication required from farmers. "Heirlooms are harder to grow...you can't do them as cheaply as you could a commodity bean," he notes the balancing act between quality and scalability (22:43).

He shares anecdotes about cultural exchanges, such as collaborating with Mexican farmers to preserve indigenous bean varieties. "It's so culturally relevant," Steve reflects on the romanticism of supporting traditional farming practices through Rancho Gordo’s initiatives (33:32).

6. Cooking Techniques and Frijoles de la Hoya Recipe

Transitioning to the culinary aspect, Megan introduces the week's featured recipe: Frijoles de la Hoya from page 213 of their cookbook. Steve and the hosts share their preferred methods for cooking dried beans:

• Soaking: Megan recommends soaking beans overnight for optimal texture (36:19). "I just like the way that soaking makes the final texture of the beans," she explains (36:07).

• Salting: Megan prefers salting at the beginning to ensure even seasoning, debunking the myth that salt hardens beans (37:08).

Steve adds his tips, advocating for simplicity and flexibility in cooking techniques. "There are a lot of variations, but basically it's really hard to screw it up," he assures listeners, encouraging experimentation (38:41).

7. Listener Interaction and Questions

The episode features listener questions, including one from Haley, who seeks advice on bread-making techniques. While the primary focus remains on beans, the discussion touches upon the versatility of ingredients and shared culinary passions among the hosts and guests.

8. Closing Thoughts and Upcoming Topics

As the episode wraps up, the hosts recap their favorite moments and recipes. Megan teases the next episode, promising a deep dive into bread-making, fulfilling Haley’s request. "Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle bread making," she invites listeners (44:40).

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Shannon Larson (02:10): "Two delicious walnut rye loaves...your husband's had his baking fiend recently."

• Steve Sando (06:22): "Paula used to say it has... it retains the flavor of everything it's ever cooked."

• Steve Sando (23:35): "Good Mother Stallard is very hard... my favorite bean."

• Steve Sando (33:17): "We're going to use that tariff money to develop this business."

• Megan Scott (36:07): "I just like the way that soaking makes the final texture of the beans."

• Steve Sando (38:41): "It's really hard to screw it up."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as an enlightening exploration into the niche of heirloom beans, weaving together personal anecdotes, expert insights, and practical cooking advice. Steve Sando’s passion for beans and sustainable agriculture resonates throughout, inspiring listeners to appreciate the depth and diversity of this humble yet versatile ingredient. Whether you're a seasoned home cook or just beginning your culinary journey, this conversation offers valuable knowledge and a heartfelt celebration of beans.

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Follow The Joy of Cooking Podcast:

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and iTunes.
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Join the Conversation:

• Make this week's recipe: Frijoles de la Hoya (page 213).
• Tag your creations on Instagram with @thejoyofcooking or use the hashtag #JoyScouts.
• Call in with questions or stories: 503-395-8858.

Stay tuned for the next episode, where the hosts will delve into the art of bread making, answering listener queries and sharing more delightful cooking stories.

Transcript

[Steve Sando]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Hello and welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, ardent Joy of Cooking user and fan and toast yay enthusiast. It's the new girl Scout cookie.

[Megan Scott]

I was like, what is that? I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And I could eat beans every single day.

[John Becker]

I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. No matter how diligently I am at cleaning pots and pans as I cook, things are always messy when I'm done.

[Shannon Larson]

At least you try.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, an effort was made.

[John Becker]

I'm counting on you. Remembering.

[Megan Scott]

My toxic dishwashing trait is that I will leave the sticky dishes like the rice pot and the beans, sometimes the beans pot or the chili pot, whatever, and I will just fill them with water and then walk away like it's just needs to soak. I just can't do this right now.

[Shannon Larson]

And then like two days goes by.

[Megan Scott]

And you're like, oh, no, John will wash it eventually.

[Shannon Larson]

I see, See?

[Megan Scott]

I see my strategy.

[John Becker]

You're not alone. This is a known thing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Well, Shannon, what have you been up to this week? What have you been cooking?

[Shannon Larson]

Well, I do want to give a shout out to my husband John. He's been baking. He's been a baking fiend recently. So he made two delicious walnut rye loaves.

[Megan Scott]

I love walnut bread.

[Shannon Larson]

They were my favorite breads he's made ever based off of a tartine recipe. But then I requested the walnuts. He also made the Joy's pear tartlets, and those turned out perfectly as well.

[Megan Scott]

They did. I just ate one.

[Shannon Larson]

I know.

[Megan Scott]

They were delicious. Yeah, they were really good.

[Shannon Larson]

And then I did want to say we made the parmesan crusted salmon Caesar salad from Jerrell Guy from the New York Times. And it was so good. Like the. You use the Caesar dressing and extra Parmesan to coat the salmon and then you bake it in that. And the salmon, I feel like it was smell of the best textured salmon I've ever made in my life. So shout out to that recipe. I used radicchio and butter lettuce instead of romaine. Just to give it a little color and pizzazz because we cooked for friends. But it was a great recipe. What about you guys?

[John Becker]

For the recipe club, we did the old pumpkin biscuits.

[Shannon Larson]

The old pumpkin biscuits, as they are now known.

[Megan Scott]

I made a bean soup this week, actually, with the Rancho Gordo baby green limas. And I feel like making, like, having a really good beans and greens soup process. Like, I don't even use a recipe. I just sort of like, what do I have? And then add it. But I feel like that's a top 10, like, cooking skill to have is to know how to just make a good bean soup. In mine, I put leeks, the green baby limas, kale. I used a little bit of bacon because we had, like three slices of bacon left over from something, and it was so good. I feel like it just turns out really well every time you used, like.

[John Becker]

A very tiny pinch of saffron.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

And really nice, subtle amount of saffron.

[Megan Scott]

That was added on a whim. So I'm glad you. I'm glad you liked it. Another thing I wanted to talk about is. So we have an office in our. A small office in our house where all of our cookbooks are, and we are having built in bookshelves installed in our office. So all of our cookbooks are, like, stacked in another room right now. It's kind of a huge mess. But I'm also really, really, really excited about it because it's going to make that room so awesome and everything so much easier to find.

[John Becker]

Yeah, I'm ready for. I'm ready for the. The house to return to normal. We had guests in that room, and then now it is full of books and the office is demolished.

[Shannon Larson]

How many cookbooks, if you could guess, do you think you have?

[Megan Scott]

I feel like you calculated this.

[John Becker]

I. I don't remember. I could show you a picture of the stacks.

[Megan Scott]

A few hundred. Yeah, probably so. Not like some people are wild with their cookbook collections. Ours is like a few hundred nothing.

[Shannon Larson]

You know, no big deal.

[John Becker]

We do try to cull.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we cull them regularly, so.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, you have to.

[Megan Scott]

This week, we'd like to welcome Steve Sando to the table. Steve is the founder of Rancho Gordo, a company that grows and sources heirloom beans. Steve, we're so excited to have you on the show today. Welcome.

[Steve Sando]

I'm a listener, so I'm very happy to be here.

[Megan Scott]

It's validating, so thank you for listening. That's rad. What was your favorite episode so far?

[Steve Sando]

The mushrooms was fascinating. Was there a Fermenting person at one point.

[Megan Scott]

Yes.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah, those two really struck me. And I don't want to sound too whatever, but I listened with a pencil because it's like, oh, that's a good source. I need to do that. Oh, that's a good idea. And that's kind of rare.

[Megan Scott]

So yeah, I love that. Are those two topics like mushrooms and fermentation? Are those two things that you're just interested in generally? No, no, even better.

[Steve Sando]

They were good shows. Yeah. I mean, I make sauerkraut and I've tried many other things, but in the end I really just love sauerkraut. I don't really. The other stuff seems like fussy and hard. You shouldn't do it if it's interesting to you. But it was fun hearing more. And mushrooms like who knew? So that's very exciting. And actually mushrooms and beans are a great combination. And Paula Wolfert has a great sand pot mushroom recipe where you just put mushrooms, a tiny bit of olive oil and salt in a Chinese clay sand pot and put it on low for an hour and you shake it every once in a while. And they are the best mushrooms ever. And I've only done it in clay, but I bet you could do it in just a regular pot too. And I've cut them up and now I put bay and epazote in them. It's a great thing to have in your refrigerator. Instead of reaching for a power bar or something, just take a spoonful of mushrooms.

[John Becker]

So, yeah, we really need to get some clay pots around. We need to, after the episode, trade some, some sources for clay pots. Cuz it seems like you have some experience.

[Steve Sando]

I have to say they're not for everybody. So they are not an heirloom you're going to pass down. They might seem kind of expensive, but they break. I mean, that's just the nature of them. But I actually co host a group on Facebook called Cooking with Clay and people talk about it all the time. But more and more, you know, where everyone's ditching their gas ovens and you have to have gas, you can't really do it production. So that is an issue.

[Megan Scott]

Why do you like cooking in clay so much?

[Steve Sando]

It's gentle. Paula used to say it has. It retains the flavor of everything it's ever cooked, especially for the unglazed ones. So that's why also you want kind of a dedicated one for fish, if you know what I mean. But I used to, when I started at the farmer's markets, would sample beans. I'd Have a thermos full of hot beans that I would sample. And I was doing so many markets that so many Friday nights I would wake up passed out to the smell of burning beans. I was so tired. I'd be watching Judge Judy or something and pass out on the couch. But once I switched to play, I had never. You just almost can't burn. You can, but you have to work really hard to burn them. So it's a more gentle flavor. And I just actually went to some friend's house, they serve beans. And they were Domingo Rojo, which is a very common bean that we grow. And it's like, what are these? And she cooked it in a clay pot that was well seasoned. And I know that was fun, but.

[Megan Scott]

So that's kind of the secret ingredient. You have the. The flavor that you can't get just from cooking beans, like in a stainless steel pot.

[Steve Sando]

I think so. And every culture, whether it's Iranian or Italian or Mexican, grandmother's cooking clay pots, when they're making beans, that's just sort of a thing. But, yeah, they're not for everybody, though, because they break and they're inexact. And also, you know, people always, you know, want. What is exactly the best recipe for cooking beans? It's like, well, how old are your beans? I mean, how did you store them? I mean, that year, did they harvest them late so they were extra dry? How hard is your water? And then did you cook it in clay? What did you cook it in? There's so many variables, so people want an easy answer, but it's sort of like you have to actually learn how to cook. But luckily, it's also really hard to screw up a pot of beans. You have to work really hard. I understand that they're rather a good ingredient to be working with, I've heard.

[Megan Scott]

Well, you're going to love our question for today, but we're going to. We're going to get to that later. I'm sure you can guess what it is. What did you cook this week that you really loved?

[Steve Sando]

Well, I cheated. Every February, it's kind of slower for us. We do a soup of the day. I thought that's kind of funny and cute. Well, in the first year, I was just posting links to other people's soups, but we've actually gone full force now, and the whole staff is involved with coming up with 28 soup recipes. And sometimes, if it's a great author and they let us share their photos and assets, we're very happy. But mostly we cook every Single one. And this week, there's Patricia Quintana was a great Mexican chef who unfortunately passed, but she had a great bean and shrimp soup. And so we thought, let's adapt that a little bit. So. So I knew I was having a dinner party tonight, so I just said, you know, I'll take the leftovers. So they made enough for it. You know, the photo shoot, we all tasted it, and it was incredible. Don't tell my guests, but they have a treat in store for them tonight that I slave for hours.

[Megan Scott]

That's perfect. What kind of beans are in it?

[Steve Sando]

They did Rio Zappe. Patricia used black beans, and then she has sort of an herby oil thing she would sprinkle on top. And so we did everything except for we used Ryuzape. I think we're going to increase the amount of shrimp, too, because there's nothing worse than being stingy with shrimp.

[Megan Scott]

To me, I agree.

[Steve Sando]

Well, there are other things, but it's not a good thing to do.

[Megan Scott]

That's my latest beef at restaurants is getting a shrimp cocktail, and it's like three shrimp.

[Shannon Larson]

What is that? I've noticed that recently.

[Megan Scott]

It's a sad number of shrimp.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it's hard to share.

[John Becker]

Hopefully these are isolated incidents.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I agree. As you might have guessed, our weekly theme is beans. And so today on the tasting segment, Steve, I wish that you could be here to taste these beans. Beans, although you have tasted them many times, because these are the. We're tasting the Rio Zappe beans. Sarah, what did you cook them with?

[Sarah Marshall]

I followed the instructions from the website for doing them in a pot in the oven. So I use my Dutch oven, and I put a bunch of bay leaves from the garden in there, some shallots, some garlic, and I had some bacon grease that was left over from making breakfast, so I put that in there. The key part of the instruction was to not add the salt until after. So I followed it exact.

[Steve Sando]

And she used water, right? Yeah. Because so often we have people say, oh, I made them really simple. I just put a ham bone and chicken stock. I'm like, oh, you've really gone to a lot of effort for. You wasted those things. Because they don't really need them with their.

[Megan Scott]

I think these are fantastic.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah, this was my first bean, Rio Zappa, that I grew as a home gardener. And I thought, how is it? I live in Napa and we know every obscure French or Italian valley and their wines and their vinegars and everything, and yet we don't even know this bean? And it's indigenous to The Americas, and we think this is the American Southwest. Although there's a very similar bean in Mexico. And beans travel pretty well, so it's always hard to know. But I thought, this is incredible. And so I actually, it was Rio Zappe. I said, my goal is I want every home cook to. To think, oh, I'll do this with Rio Zappa, and know what that means. We're not there yet. We're working on it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you're a lot closer.

[John Becker]

I feel like you're well on your way.

[Steve Sando]

I'm doing my best. Yeah. To me, there were just hints of chocolate in this bean when they're raw. I mean, before you doctor them up, it's one of my favorites. And the bean broth is out of this world. And I'm sure the hot sauce just adds to it as well.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you really don't need to do much to them at all. I'm trying the beans with the rotten jerk Tortuga Gordo sauce. I love this bottle because the label has an orange cat on it, which is just perfect.

[Shannon Larson]

And then I just tried the Green Cobra. It's really, really good. Really flavorful.

[Megan Scott]

That's like a habanero. That's.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

The rotten jerk is spicy.

[Megan Scott]

Very spicy in a good way and excellent. The flavor of the habanero peppers is really coming through. It's great.

[John Becker]

Yeah. I just tried both of those back to back, and they were both delicious. Although I think I might have cross contaminated.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, no.

[Shannon Larson]

The Green Cobra is nice and light and herby. I don't know what all is in there, but.

[Megan Scott]

Because you have the bottle, but yeah, it smells almost citrusy.

[Shannon Larson]

It's really good.

[Megan Scott]

This is why I love all the Rancho Gordo beans. We've been bean club members for I don't even know how long many years.

[John Becker]

At least five years.

[Megan Scott]

At least five. But, yeah, the heirloom beans are just so much more flavorful. You really. We just cook them really simply. Most of the time we'll put like half an onion in the pot or a bay leaf or an avocado le beef or something. But, yeah, they're just really great cooked as is. And then they're so versatile when you cook them that way.

[Steve Sando]

I love that. And, you know, I, Tamar Adler, had that book called a Something Feast, An.

[Megan Scott]

Everlasting Meal or something like that.

[Steve Sando]

I think Movable Feast is Ernest Hemingway. Anyway, it's a great book, and it just talks about when you go to the farmer's market, come home and cook everything. I love that so many are Instincts. But the reality is, it's Wednesday night. You've had an awful day at work, and you're going to come home and start peeling vegetables. No, you're going to reach for the garbage. But if it's already cooked. So if you have a pound of beans that you made on Sunday and you have roasted cauliflower, say, it's like, oh, I think I'm going to make up a squeeze some lemon and call that a dish. I mean, it's really nice having those tools in your refrigerator. And I think I instinctually did a lot of that anyway. But reading her book, to me, it was just, oh, okay, that's exactly how you do it. And at that point, I was a single father with a teenage son, and he would literally go through the refrigerator and pick out, okay, I want some of this, this, and this, and make his own lunch, which was really gratifying.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. For a while, I was cooking that way as well. I actually read. I read Tamar Adler's book and was really inspired by it. It was probably one of the first food books that I read. And it was like, oh, my God, this is brilliant. And I would just cook everything ahead of time. I would cook beans, roast vegetables. I would make rice, like brown rice or something. And then it was all in the fridge. And it's just such a nice. It's. It can be kind of a nice break from having to figure out what you're going to do every night.

[John Becker]

Yeah. I feel like that was one of the first really influential books that. That you read after we started working for Joy. I'm pretty sure.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I'm going to write about that this week in the Substack, actually, because it's really. It's a fantastic book, and I still think about it all the time. But back to these beans. These are fantastic. They're the Rio Zappe Rancho Gordo beans. And they're also so beautiful. They don't look as pretty when they're cooked, but they are so pretty when they're raw. They're all pretty. I don't know. I like them all.

[Steve Sando]

My theory is mumbo jumbo, but when you read what was the Botany of Desire by Michael Pollan and How Plants Adapt to Make us want Them and all that, and it's probably true, but I don't. I'm not qualified to say, but the beans go from green beans with white seeds to, once they're drying, they go from green pods to tan pods, and the beans go from white to these wild colors. And it's because it's the end of a life. And I sort of think it's the beans way of saying, save me. I'm pretty, you know, for the farmer looks down and it's like, oh, wait, this is worth saving. It's pretty colorful. And it's worked for me my whole life.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it works on me. I'm such a sucker.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah. So I don't know if that's true, but I used to joke with people and say that we had orphans who hand painted them. And people just have no sense of humor these days, so I don't treat them well. They get breaks.

[Megan Scott]

That's so many beans to paint. How many have you got over there? Oh, my God.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sarah Marshall of Marshall's Hot Sauce here looking for a hot sauce that's a little different. Let me introduce you to Tortuga Gordo fermented hot sauce, makers of the good food award winning Green Cobra and Rotten Jerk hot sauces out of Portland, Oregon. Tortuga Gordo is waiting for you in the refrigerator section of market of choice New Seasons and your local co op or bodega. Or find them online at www.tortuga gordo.com. they're not with the other hot sauces because they're not like the other hot sauces.

[Megan Scott]

So we're going to recap. Last week's Joy Scouts recipe real quick was the pumpkin biscuits made with Joy's sweet potato biscuit recipe. I made those actually yesterday and I hadn't made biscuits in a really long time because it's just the two of us. And a whole thing of biscuits is a lot for two people. But it was so easy. I was like, oh, yeah, this is just like, this is just like riding a bike. I'm just going to get right back on. But I did the thing where you fold the dough like you kind of treat it like a laminated dough so you fold it over onto itself to make those flaky layers. And I think they turned out nice. I didn't rotate the pan in the oven, so they kind of rose up more on one side and were like lopsided. They just have character.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Our recipe for this week is a bean recipe and we went with the simplest one in the book, which is Frijoles de la Hoya on page 213. It's really simple. You just simmer them in water with a little bit of onion, garlic, epazote or oregano, and then optional a dried chili like a guajillo or something, and also optional avocado leaf. Steve Is this the way you usually cook beans, or does it really vary depending on the bean or what you're eventually going to do with it?

[Steve Sando]

It's close. I wouldn't. Is it in the book that it's both? I would either choose an avocado leaf, which is kind of hard to find if you're not near Oaxacans, or epazote or oregano. I probably wouldn't do all three.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, it's epazote or oregano. So you pick one or the other, and then the avocado leaf is an optional ingredient.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah. And that's really traditionally. Which doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, but traditionally you toast it and use that in black beans. You know, go for it if you can. And also, it's not. Has avocado. Won't work. It has to be an heirloom avocado from Mexico or maybe one that was grown here, too, but it's harder one. But an epazote is really best fresh. They have dried epazote, but it's sort of not really anything. So we use our oregano indio, which is a Mexican oregano. And in Mexico, there's probably eight or nine oreganos, and none of them are true oreganos. And I think the Spanish, when they got there, just said, oh, we're going to call everything green oregano.

[Megan Scott]

Right? But, yes, please make this week's recipe, Frijoles de la Hoya. It's on page 213. And if you do make it, tag us on instagram @the joyofcooking. You can also use the hashtag Joy Scouts.

[John Becker]

And if you can, please do get your hands on the oregano indio. So good.

[Megan Scott]

It's one of our favorite.

[Shannon Larson]

John Becker is. He's a fan. He talks about it lovingly.

[John Becker]

Yeah, yeah. I've. I mentioned it a few times before recording.

[Steve Sando]

It's such a sweet story, too, because the Wasteca region goes on the top of Mexico, so it goes from the coast of Veracruz. I'm going to miss one Hidalgo. And then I think San Luis Potosi. During the conquest, a lot of people just ran up there to get by. But there's a collective that harvest actually cultivates it now, and it's a wild oregano. And they took the herb to Mexico City and they couldn't get arrested. Like, who? We don't want this. All the chefs were like, no, no, no, no. We sent it to Thomas Keller, and it was not at French Laundry. It was per se for this one. And they bought £5. £5 of oregano.

[Megan Scott]

Whoa, that's a lot.

[Steve Sando]

Word got back to Mexico City, and all of a sudden, this collective is the bell of the ball. I mean, they're selling it to all these hot Mexico City restaurants. So it's a very cool story of, you know, how it starts one way, and then just because of the validation from Almost Keller, it can change things. And we stood up, too, with beans. When I first started the farmers markets, I was the loneliest person there. I mean, everyone, like, felt sorry for me because, oh, God, what a loser you are. And, you know, the tomatoes and the lavender were all packed. But then Keller came, and all of a sudden, it was like seagulls on a carcass or something. Everybody's like, what did he get? What did he get? And suddenly I was popular, and it made me. And this was 2001. Ish. Maybe it was 3 or 4 by the time I was at the market. But it made me realize, oh, I'm gonna go with influencers without. And that wasn't even a thing then. But beans had been this sort of ascetic, hippie penance food up until then. And I didn't care about health. I was doing it more from a pro America's the Americas idea. But it's like, oh, you know what? We're going to do this as flavor. Because it was at that point, the people that were buying them were kind of poor people or people who believe they should be cheap because they're beings and. Or nostalgic people from the Depression or hippies. And I'm of an age I can call them hippies anyway. And it's like, oh, no. It's this great ingredient we've taken for granted. And that was really my inspiration. That was like, oh, this is how we're gonna do it.

[Megan Scott]

Go with flavor.

[Steve Sando]

And heirlooms are harder to grow, and so that you can't do them as cheaply as you could a commodity bean. So how do you convince people that this cheap food to the poor is actually worth it? And ironically, too, is at that point, French Laundry probably was the most important restaurant in the country. And here they are so high, buying the lowest food supposedly and elevating it. So to me, I find that all very romantic.

[Megan Scott]

It is very romantic. So these beans, you kind of touched on it, but they're harder to grow.

[Steve Sando]

The yield is much lower usually, but after a few years, if you. So at the beginning, we would have two farmers grow 20 varieties, and we just see what worked. But we have discovered if each farmer grows one or two, they really get to know it, everything's acclimated and, like, this isn't a good bean for this area, or this one is like a weed. So it's we there they want to grow. But they can be a little fussy, especially for the yield is the big issue.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And. But comparing it to beans that have been bred specifically for having a high yield versus something that tastes really good.

[Steve Sando]

Well, it could be half, but it could be very similar, too, if it's. If all the stars are aligned.

[Megan Scott]

I wanted to ask about some. One of my favorite beans of all time is the Good Mother Stallard bean, which is very hard. Oh, you're making a face. Do you hate it?

[Steve Sando]

I love it. It's my favorite bean. But we can't grow enough.

[Megan Scott]

See, that's what I was going to ask is like, I can't find them. I remember getting them from Rancho Gordo a couple of times and then now they're not available. So they seem tricky.

[Steve Sando]

They are. And some years they're fine, and then some years it's like nothing happened. And it's. So for us, it's been. And we've had a few bad farmers who we trusted shouldn't have been done, but we. I don't want to promise the moon, but we're last year's harvest. We've just finished cleaning the last of them and we're about to announce them. And it may or may not be in there.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I'll keep my. I'll just keep checking the website compulsively for those beans.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah, I don't want to oversell it, but it's sort of the perfect bean. I mean, it's got a thin skin, this beefy, fabulous texture. And then the bean broth is so good. It's a winner all the way around. Ojo de cabra or I either go is very similar to that. And the interesting thing with Good Mother Stallard is one year we lost them all. Like, even. We couldn't even save enough for seed. And I just was panicked. So we looked in Holland and the Dutch are very famous seed breeders. They do really a great job. So we got them. But beans are seed, so I thought, I'll cook a pound of them to see if they're good. It's like, they weren't. And I thought, oh, no, this is really a drag, but maybe it'll just keep doing it. But then we grew them and they were fabulous. So there really is a terroir issue. In addition to all these other elements, like where they're from and the amount of stress they get. And water really affects the flavor, too.

[Megan Scott]

Do you know the origin of that? Like, where does that bean come from?

[Steve Sando]

Now, I've looked. Every reference is us. So there's this kind of. When you go searching, it always goes to Rancho Gordo. I have no idea. So, no, I don't know. I don't know who she was. I don't. But I like her.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I like. Well, I was going to ask you. I know you talk about it in your most recent cookbook, and you talked about it a little bit before how you kind of got into beans, but how did you. Like, you started with the Rio Zappa, growing those. What made you decide to turn that into a business?

[Steve Sando]

Yeah, it's a stupid idea. I mean. Oh, yeah. That's how we're going to make money. But, you know, I'd really turned 40. I was having a crisis. Like, all these different entrepreneurial things I had done almost worked, and none of them quite did. So I just thought, I'm going to get a garden and get a job at Target, is what I thought at the time. I just had the extra crop, so I took them to the farmer's market and it really was a fun lifestyle. Eventually it got to me, but for the early years, it was fun. It just seemed like that's a good thing to do. And also getting the encouragement from the chefs. And I had bought Photoshop and designed the label that we still use. And I thought, well, I want to use the label, so we might as well have a business.

[Megan Scott]

It seems like everyone else was on the same kind of trajectory. I feel like your company started at just the right time. There was an interest there that maybe people didn't even know that they had.

[Steve Sando]

No, it was the second wave of sort of the food revolution, I think. I mean, there was early stuff with Alice Waters and the people who had. We're growing stuff. There's a bunch of us that were kind of a second wave who weren't necessarily welcome, to be honest with you. It's all right. We've out through a lot of times. Whether it's, you know, mainstream being people or the food scene, they sort of don't want to let you in their club necessarily. And my advice always is don't let that stop you. Create your better. I mean, make your own club and make it even better. And because there is no community, per se, I don't know, you just put your own thing. I mean, if they won't let you in their club. Make your own. And then that seems to have been a good thing for my whole life.

[Megan Scott]

And then you started the Bean Club.

[Steve Sando]

Oh, yeah, that was the later manifestation of it. But I knew nothing about agriculture and I think it was very threatening to certain old school ag people. And I'm like, well, that doesn't make sense the way you're doing it. Let's just do this. It's like, no, no, this is the way we do it. It's just create your own. And then also with the Bean Club, though, being in Napa, there's so many wine clubs. And another boring winery makes another boring wine club. And like, what do you do? And I thought, wouldn't it be funny? And there's the stupidest thing on the planet to a Bean Club. And that was again, the brilliant marketing. It seems so chaotic. A Bean Club, that's so funny. And I think, you know, there's like 26,000 people in it, which the company just stops during Bean Club shipments. Because we normally ship three or four hundred packages a day. And all of a sudden we have to get 26,000.

[Megan Scott]

That is crazy. I had no idea that there were that many. We just got our Bean Club shipment this week. So I know you, you all were just dealing with that.

[Steve Sando]

But we're still. We're not even halfway through yet.

[Megan Scott]

Oh my gosh.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah, it's so much fun. But it is up to lot.

[Shannon Larson]

There's still a wait list, right?

[Steve Sando]

It's up to 20,000.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh my gosh. Last time I read it was 10, 20.

[Steve Sando]

Wow. It goes between 15 and 20 normally, but right now it's 20.

[Megan Scott]

Well, now we can't ever leave the Bean Club. Cause we'll never get back on.

[Steve Sando]

Ever. Well, I know a guy you might.

[John Becker]

No, we're talking about, you know, splitting our Bean Club members with Shannon so that we can all enjoy.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Sando]

It's beyond what I could have ever thought, so I'm happy.

[Megan Scott]

Do you have any sense of how many pounds of beans you sell a year?

[Steve Sando]

Two and a half million. We just figured this out.

[Megan Scott]

Whoa. My mind is blown.

[Steve Sando]

Bean Club's only part of it. I mean, we also have wholesale and we sell 25 pound sacks to restaurants. We do, you know, one pound retail bags to retail stores. We have our store. And then the direct to consumer at rancho gordo.com is about 60% of the whole thing. I mean, you don't have to be a Bean Club to get the beans, right? You can just get what you want, when you want it. I do a newsletter. So, miss that.

[John Becker]

What's your best seller, aside from beans and the oregano? I'm just kind of curious because you have a bunch of really nice stuff on there. I feel like you introduced us to the pineapple vinegar. And then also that banana vinegar is fantastic.

[Steve Sando]

So it's between a plantain and a banana, whatever they're using. And when the price gets too low, it's better for them to let them rot. And they make this incredible vinegar that definitely tastes banana y, but it's not cloying at all. And it's just that, again, it's that certain something. And in fact, tonight I'm making, you know, with this dinner party for the main dish, I'm going to marinate chicken, and I use oregano indio, and the pineapple vinegar and olive oil, and it's. And salt. And that's a great way to marinate chicken, I think.

[John Becker]

Okay, taking notes. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

My mouth is watering.

[Steve Sando]

The clay pots are. We sell so many of them now. Like, I could almost do a clay pot site, really. When we first got the clay pots from this woman, Lourdes, and she's in Los Reyes Mezotle, which is in Puebla. But culturally, it's the mistake. So it's sort of Oaxacan. These clay pots, they burnish with quartz rocks that have been in the family for generations. And there's no glaze. And the first order was 30 pots. And she was saying, oh, why am I doing this? This is so stup. You know, gringos eat at McDonald's. They're never going to sell. I'm wasting all my time. And it was so much fun calling a week later and saying, we sold every single one in a week. And it's just breaking cultural barriers on both sides. It was pretty great. Hundreds a year now from her.

[Megan Scott]

Wild. That's amazing. Kind of. On a similar note, I wanted to ask you about your project with chochok. Is that how you pronounce it?

[Steve Sando]

Shashak? No, that's part of the fun, isn't it? Yeah. And. Well, so they were a couple who were in Hidalgo. They were all set up to export their treats that were made from shokonosle, which. And sometimes it's coconut slay or hokonosle. And those are sour, prickly pears. So the sweet ones have a particular flavor, but these are sour, and they're more for cooking, and they're very good. But I just think, well, that's not going to work at all. But I said, by the way, are there any heirloom beans here? And they're like, oh, no, no, there's none at all. And the mother said, no, there's one in the village. And so these young Mexicans who really didn't know anything about heirloom beans put me to shame now. And they are almost like detectives going around looking for different farmers and heirloom beans. Our first shipment with them. I mean, I think I met them that summer, and by September or October, they had found enough heirloom beans to ship to us. And the first time was like a dream. They got through customs. There was no problem. And if we had known what was coming, I don't know that we would have done this, but it's been great. And we do. They're probably 15% of our business now importing these beans from Mexico. And they're from small farms, usually indigenous farmers, who, if they were to take their beans again to Mexico City, they wouldn't be able to sell them because it's so regional in Mexico. And it's like, well, no, we don't eat those. We eat these here. But we're in the States, like, oh, I'd love for another bean to try. We get all excited. So they don't have all the baggage. We don't have the baggage in this sense that they do. And it's just been this one town in this village where the first time we went, there were no man at all. It was really sad, you know, just some dogs and it just was awful. And we've been going since 2008 is this has been going and the streets are paying if there's schools and men are so proud because it's culturally relevant. You know, we could be Ford Motor Company and open an auto parts plant nearby and then move to Indonesia when it's cheaper or wherever. But this is like, no, we totally value what you're doing and we want to export it. So it's been really a wonderful thing. The politically, the exportation issue, the tariff has been a nightmare because it's changing every minute.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Steve Sando]

And it's the worst thing for business. And to go to them and say, you know, your beans are now going to cost 25% more, but you're not going to see the money. And I'm not either. And they're not going to do so well. And this is. My customer will support them. But.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Steve Sando]

Why, though? Sorry. I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

But curious how that was impacting your business. Like, what are you seeing so far? Because it's early days but, like, you know, what are you seeing so far with your business?

[Steve Sando]

It was at the 11th hour that he called off. He said, well, we're not going to do it now for another month. Now what do we do? So we think we're off the hook. And now, as of today, there is the threat of a 25 increase. And with tariffs, it's actually traditionally been a very liberal thing. It's like we have an unfair disadvantage. So we're going to use that tariff money to develop this business. But this is just.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And 25% is giant. That's huge.

[Steve Sando]

What are these guys? So we'll survive it, probably, I would guess. But if it was a different business, what are those guys, too, who have been doing really well? They're going to come here. So the very immigration problem that you are so threatened by, you're actually making it worse because I always say they're not coming here for the television because it's so good. They're coming here because they're desperate. You can tell. I get a little like, well, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

You'Re passionate about it. It's your business. And you know, you know these people, you've worked with them for many years.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah. It affects us directly.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Steve Sando]

And it's a tough one for those.

[Megan Scott]

Who might not know. Like, can you describe how does that work on the business, on your end of things, like who is paying the tariff and where does it go?

[Steve Sando]

Well, we pay it, but because we're a business, we're passing it on. I mean, the whole point of the business is to make a profit. And the other thing, I would say if this was, like, starting next spring, we're going to add this tariff, we could be intelligent about it, but it's like every minute getting a different edict, like, oh, no, we're not going to have them now you do. It's like, you know, in business, usually this stuff has all been planned for a year and now it's going to be held hostage at the border. That part is the real hard part, because it's a crop and you plant them and you do everything based on your plans and pray for the best. But this is not a natural disaster.

[Megan Scott]

It's a right. I mean, even though they are dried, it's still a perishable product. It has a shelf life.

[Steve Sando]

I mean, to be superior like ours. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

All right, we're going to move into the segment where we talk about the question of the week. And so this week's topic is Beans and Sarah. Can you read the question?

[Sarah Marshall]

Hello, Joy of Cooking. What's the best way to cook dried beans? I've never done it before. Thank you.

[Megan Scott]

Your favorite.

[Steve Sando]

In fairness, it's so intimidating to look at these beans. They're rock hard. They're not like any other ingredient that requires this way of cooking, this hope, you know, maybe the preparation. So I. I totally get it's intimidating. And then people who love beans tend to be a little over the top about how much they love them. And so now there's this expectation that I have to make fabulous beans. I can't just make beans.

[Megan Scott]

And then maybe joy of cooking is somewhat guilty of this as well. But beans are such a simple food. But there's a lot of hand wringing about how to cook them. Like, should I soak them? Should I salt them before or after? There's a lot of kind of folklorish beliefs around how beans cook well and how they don't. I'll just describe our process for cooking beans. We keep it pretty simple. I do like to soak, but you absolutely don't have to. But I'll soak mine maybe the night start the night before or even the morning of, because we're usually cooking them for dinner. And I just like the way that soaking makes the final texture of the beans. I think it helps. Maybe that's superstitious on my part because I think if you just simmer them very gently until they're totally done, that also works fine and you don't need to soak. But I like. I like the process of it too. Also. They're real pretty. When you put them in the water.

[Shannon Larson]

They are really pretty. I always. I always find myself taking pictures of them, and I'm like, oh, they're so pretty.

[John Becker]

I feel like par. Cooking the beans, like, ahead of time is always. Especially if you think that you're gonna be. Have limited amount of time to together dinner. Like sometime during the week. Yeah.

[Steve Sando]

Par.

[John Becker]

Cooking and then storing them in the refrigerator. And then you can start over with some fresh aromatics if you want.

[Megan Scott]

And I do simmer them with salt. I just add salt at the beginning of the cooking process. I don't think it affects the cooking time. I don't think it keeps them hard at all. I would salt them just because it does the final product is evenly seasoned throughout versus trying to add salt at the very end. You sometimes it's hard to judge how salty you're making it. Those are my bean tricks. That's basically the way my grandmother cooked them when I was growing up. I grew up eating a Ton of beans. Because I grew up in the south and we just love our beans. And she would always make. Well, she called them October beans, but nobody knows what that is.

[John Becker]

It's cranberry beans.

[Megan Scott]

They're cranberry beans. But she just called them October, I think, because they were processing them, like hulling them. The dried beans in October. Ish.

[Steve Sando]

So we had a variety called October beans for a while, and it was a cranberry. And cranberry, I think, is almost like saying red tomato. It's to this point, I think there are a lot of variations within it. That would be really cool if you could find her seed stock, but.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I wonder if she still has. She might still have some.

[Shannon Larson]

That'd be awesome.

[Megan Scott]

I love what you put in your cookbook at the beginning, which I didn't write it down, but it basically, it was like, simmer them until they're done. That is how you cook beans.

[Steve Sando]

Main. Main step. And I think part of it too, is people are, I did it. So therefore my way is the way to do it. And you should not bury. But there are a lot of roads to roam. And I used to be inanimate non soaker, and I'm like, I don't care if you want to soak, soak. They've proven that the salting thing's a myth, But I'm still so cheap. There's a point when the bean pot starts smelling like beans as opposed to the aromatics you've used. And that's when I do salt. I'm trying to think of what the water I. You know, you cover by 2 inches, but you don't want it too watery or you're going to have a watery broth, but you don't want it too little because the broth is, like I said, free soup. So you want to make sure you have that. So there. There are a lot of variations, but basically it's really hard to screw it up.

[John Becker]

I love how you describe it, the bean broth as free soup. I was actually wondering if you had kind of a go to free soup that did not necessarily incorporate the beans.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, like how you use the bean broth minus the beans.

[John Becker]

Right, right.

[Steve Sando]

Much like you were talking about bacon. My friends have this incredible place called the fatted caf. So I get pancetta all the time, so I will often chop up pancetta. Not and not a lot. And I put olive oil in it. I don't know why you fry pan. Maybe you guys know more than I do. But if you do dry Pancetta, it doesn't work as well. You just need a couple of drops of olive oil. And once it's rendered and beautiful, I take the pancetta out, I open up the vegetable drawer and start making something. And then for liquid, I almost always use bean broth. Not 100% because it's too much. Actually, it's almost too rich. And bean broth and water is what I would do. Or if I had chicken stock or if I had, you know, pureed tomatoes, whatever. I mean, you just use whatever. But bean broth should be at least half, I think. And then you really can almost do anything, because that's my soup base. As I would say, it's pancetta and bean broth. Or the secrets.

[Megan Scott]

And you. You said in. In your book that you sometimes will serve little shots, shot glasses of bean broth with some garnish. Garnishes.

[Steve Sando]

Yeah. Squeeze a lime, some chopped raw onion, and maybe a little pinch of oregano indio. And you bring it out on a tray. And even people who've read the book, it's like, ooh. It's like something special is happening a little. Pick me up before the whole thing starts.

[Megan Scott]

If you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Haley]

Hi, I'm calling for the Joy of Cooking podcast. My name is Haley. I'm a huge foodie and lover of all things bread. I found myself looking for a food podcast at the beginning of this year, 2025, and I stumbled upon the Joy of Cooking, and it's been an absolute dream to listen to. I want to know everything you all know about bread, specifically sourdough and sourdough starters. But I'm also very curious about more straightforward and delicious loaf making for beginners. Thank you.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for sending in your question, Haley. Super excited to talk about bread that is a big. Such a huge. So we're gonna do our best with the time that we have. What's everybody gonna be cooking this week?

[Shannon Larson]

My husband is in New York City for a week, so I am alone. And this doesn't happen often. Like, twice a year. We usually travel together. I'm excited. I'm gonna challenge myself to actually cook, though I'm not gonna, you know, phone it in, and I'm gonna challenge myself to try to cook for one. That's a very hard thing for me. To do, But I think it might be kind of fun.

[Megan Scott]

Well, you could also just have us over. Well, and you don't have to cook for one.

[Shannon Larson]

I see.

[Megan Scott]

I see. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

No, and. Oh, yeah, I was thinking of. I was. I had a joke. I'm like, I'm gonna have a kegger while you're out of town, you know, but just get, like, a little keg of wine and share it with some friends.

[Megan Scott]

What do you normally do when John is gone? Do you normally phone it in? I have a hard time imagining you phoning.

[Shannon Larson]

I know. No, I don't ever truly phone it in, But I will maybe have more, like, school lunch dinners. I think I've talked about that. But, like, you know, a little bit more frozen meal, like macaroni and cheese, maybe. And I do use it as a chance to see friends and go out more often than I probably should.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. What about you, too?

[Megan Scott]

Well, John got some. He found some frozen bulldog dumplings at grocery outlet, which I'm really excited about. But for those who don't know, buldak is like a Korean. Often a chicken dish where the chicken is cooked in, like, a very, very red gochujang sauce that is spicy. And then you put cheese over the top and broil it. So I want to do that treatment, but with the bulldog dumplings. So it'll be like, bulldog, bulldog dumplings. Bulldog inception, Bulldog exception. And maybe add some of the rice cakes in there, too, for that chewiness. But ever since I thought of it, I can't. I can't stop thinking about it. What about you, Steve? What are you cooking this week? Beans.

[Steve Sando]

I actually just got back from Mexico, and people know about en frijoladas, which are like enchiladas, but made with beans. And traditionally, they're really famous in Oaxaca, so they're usually black beans. And I just was in Michoacan, and they had enfijoladas, but they did beans and tomatoes. But they probably were using perijuano beans or mayakoba beans and a tomato sauce. So they added some, and they were incredible. And hot tomatoes are always tomato sauces, actually. Should catch on one of these days. It's a great thing. But adding it with the hot beans and then dipping a tortilla in it and maybe filling it with some leftover chicken or whatever or cheese. So I'm gonna experiment with that. I've never done it with tomatoes in it, which for most people, it's like, whatever. But to me, it's like, oh, no, this is groundbreaking. So I'm very excited.

[Megan Scott]

It's very exciting. That sounds delicious, Steve. Where can people find you? Where can people follow you?

[Steve Sando]

Everything's@rancho gordo.com but if you're in Napa, we have a great store where we sample beans every day and we'd love to see you, but otherwise we'll see you online. And I have a newsletter that comes out every two weeks. It's usually got a recipe and some gossip and it's newsworthy.

[Megan Scott]

Good recipes too. I highly recommend thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts and itunes. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram @the joyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle bread making. And don't forget to make this week's recipe Frijoles de la Hoya. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Hayley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our prod.