A Casual Culinary Chat About Vegetarian Noodles with Kristin Donnelly

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: A Casual Culinary Chat About Vegetarian Noodles with Kristin Donnelly
Release Date: April 2, 2025
Host: The Joy of Creation Production House
Guest: Kristin Donnelly

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1. Introduction: Planting and Kitchen Tools (00:00 - 06:00)

The episode begins with Sarah Marshall filling in for Shannon Larson, introducing herself and sharing her farmer's market basket brimming with green vegetables, purple gold potato starts, and radishes.[00:37] Megan Scott and Jon Becker join the conversation, discussing their latest kitchen tools—specifically, baby tongs. Jon praises their versatility, stating, “I think baby tongs are better than culinary tweezers” [01:10], sparking a light-hearted debate about kitchen gadgets. Megan shares her excitement about planting purple gold potatoes with her children, highlighting the joy of involving kids in gardening: “We do it at school garden and then we do it here because it's just so fun for them to dig around and find these little treasures” [02:19].

2. Welcoming Kristin Donnelly (06:33 - 07:08)

The hosts introduce their special guest, Kristin Donnelly, a renowned cookbook author, recipe developer, copywriter, and cookbook coach. Kristin brings a wealth of experience from her time as an editor at Food and Wine and her multiple published cookbooks, including The Modern Potluck and Short Stack Editions: Cauliflower. She also co-authors Turtle Island, exploring indigenous North American foods, and co-hosts the podcast Everything Cookbooks.[06:33]

3. Kristin Donnelly’s Journey and Podcasting (07:10 - 09:36)

Kristin delves into the origins of her podcast, Everything Cookbooks, explaining how casual monthly meetings with fellow cookbook authors Andrea Nguyen, Molly Stevens, and Kate Leahy evolved into a successful podcast: “We decided to try it. And what was funny was in this was like, two maybe 20, 21 episodes, and I had been playing around with podcasting” [07:50]. She reflects on the growth of the podcast from an initial 12 episodes to over a hundred, emphasizing their passion for sharing cookbook writing insights and fostering a community among food enthusiasts.[09:36]

4. Cooking with Kids and Matcha Tea Segment (09:37 - 21:04)

The conversation shifts to cooking for children, with Kristin sharing her approach to accommodating her 12-year-old's adventurous palate: “Lately I've been asking her to send me videos of stuff she sees and I'll try to make those things” [10:10]. This leads to a discussion on the appeal of colorful and umami-rich recipes, particularly those trending on platforms like TikTok.

Matcha Tea Tasting (14:50 - 23:00)

Sarah introduces the matcha tea tasting segment sponsored by Mizuba Tea Company. Megan demonstrates making a matcha latte while the hosts discuss various culinary uses for matcha, such as in ice cream, smoothies, and baked goods. Kristin shares innovative ways to incorporate matcha into dishes like carrot recipes with tahini and garlic bread crumbs: “It's like a kid-friendly green drink” [17:53]. The segment highlights the interactive and sensory aspects of making matcha, fostering an engaging culinary experience.[22:46]

5. Recipe Discussions and Kitchen Adventures (23:00 - 35:06)

The hosts and Kristin exchange stories about recent recipes they've tried from The Joy of Cooking. Jon Becker recounts his attempt at a dill batter loaf, humorously admitting, “I overproofed it quite a bit” [21:56], yet praises its delicious result when paired with borscht. Megan Scott shares insights from her preserving cookbook, discussing matcha-infused applesauce: “Instead of just making applesauce, it's applesauce, and you make the matcha tea and whisk it in” [18:25].

Kristin reflects on her relationship with The Joy of Cooking, highlighting its role as a reliable culinary reference in her household: “She used it all the time, but she didn't have necessarily, other than, like, those basic components” [28:32]. The discussion underscores the enduring legacy of the cookbook as both a practical guide and a source of culinary inspiration.[30:34]

6. The Art of Cookbook Writing (35:06 - 43:45)

Megan poses a significant question to Kristin about her passion for helping others craft their cookbook dreams: “When did you have that moment that that was going to be a path that you were going to go down?” [35:06]. Kristin explains that her journey evolved organically from her editorial work at Food and Wine to collaborating with authors and eventually coaching aspiring cookbook writers. She emphasizes the importance of enthusiasm and a clear audience in successful cookbook projects: “You need to have someone you're talking to, like, people who want that message” [37:06].

Jon Becker adds that while The Joy of Cooking aims for a broad readership, Kristin's approach involves tailoring content to specific audiences, highlighting the different dynamics between maintaining an established staple and crafting unique cookbook proposals.[38:25]

7. Crafting Engaging Recipes and Titles (43:45 - 46:56)

The hosts discuss the elements that make recipes appealing, such as concise ingredient lists and engaging titles. Kristin shares her insights on balancing ingredient and method lengths, inspired by Andy Barragani’s rule: “Either your ingredient list is long and your method short or your method is long and your ingredient list is short” [46:13]. Megan reflects on her growth in recipe titling, noting how Kristin’s feedback transformed her approach: “I was in your class, as soon as you would like, say what I called something in your I think of it as like magazine voice” [43:46].

8. Potluck Favorites and Family Traditions (46:56 - 49:58)

Kristin shares her go-to potluck dishes from her cookbook, such as carrots and lentils and vegan caprese tomato salads, highlighting their versatility and crowd-pleasing flavors: “It's a really framework and you can totally bury it” [47:01]. The conversation also touches on family traditions of potlucks and the joy of sharing homemade dishes, reinforcing the communal spirit of cooking.[49:58]

9. Listener Questions: Cooking for Kids and Veggie Noodles (51:17 - 61:33)

The episode features a segment addressing listener Ashley's question about expanding her 12-year-old son's love for sushi and ramen to incorporate more vegetables. The hosts offer a variety of creative solutions:

• Sesame Noodles: A kid-friendly recipe with a peanut butter-like sauce [51:57].
• Roasted Vegetables: Suggestions include roasted sweet potatoes, steamed broccoli, and roasted mushrooms as ramen toppings [52:48].
• Interactive Meals: Incorporating salad rolls and DIY sushi allowing children to assemble their own dishes [53:12].
• Cookbook Recommendations: Kristin recommends Tender Heart by Hetty McKinnon for its veggie-centric noodle recipes [58:28].

Jon Becker emphasizes the importance of balancing ingredient and method complexity to suit young cooks’ tastes and schedules: “More workable noodle soups out there that are fantastic” [58:41]. Megan Scott highlights the effectiveness of adding sweetness and creating interactive dining experiences to make vegetables more appealing to children.[61:33]

10. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Topics (61:33 - 63:39)

The hosts wrap up the episode by sharing their upcoming culinary plans, including making rhubarb conserve and exploring recipes from the cookbook Cuisine on Screen. They encourage listeners to engage with the podcast by following them on social media and participating in future discussions. Kristin teases her upcoming recipe inspired by cucumber sushi, aligning with the episode’s theme of vegetarian noodles.[63:25]

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Notable Quotes:

• Jon Becker: “I think baby tongs are better than culinary tweezers.” [01:10]
• Kristin Donnelly: “Does the book live up to its promise? That's what makes a great cookbook.” [34:44]
• Megan Scott: “Sometimes if you make the batter really thick, then the kids can't really tell what the vegetables are.” [53:12]
• Kristin Donnelly: “You need to have someone you're talking to, like, people who want that message.” [37:06]
• Jon Becker: “Either your ingredient list is long and your method short or your method is long and your ingredient list is short.” [46:13]

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This episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast offers a rich blend of gardening anecdotes, innovative cooking techniques, and expert insights into cookbook writing. Kristin Donnelly's contributions provide valuable perspectives for both seasoned cooks and aspiring cookbook authors, making it an engaging listen for anyone passionate about culinary arts.

Transcript

[Sarah Marshall]

Sa.

[Megan Scott]

Hello and welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of Joy of Cooking. Digging into kitchen victories, misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you joined us at the table today. This is Sarah Marshall filling in for Shannon. And my farmer's market basket is full of crunchy green vegetables, purple gold potato starts for planting, and huge radishes. Megan.

[Sarah Marshall]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And I'm fueled by Vietnamese instant coffee.

[Jon Becker]

I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And I think baby tongs are wonderful. I'm using them for everything. I think that they're better than culinary tweezers.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, I was going to say you don't like tweezers, but the baby tongs are where it's at.

[Jon Becker]

We got like two pairs of these for. I think that we were having like an event at our house. It was like an anniversary type situation and more people than we normally have over and we had to serve like multiple things and it was like, oh, okay, we should get these little tongs for, for serving. And now I'm using them for everything.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I don't think I know the difference between baby tongs and tweezers.

[Sarah Marshall]

What's the difference?

[Jon Becker]

You get more leverage.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay.

[Jon Becker]

Pretty much. I mean, it's just like your standard Oxo type tong, but they're only like maybe 6 or 7 inches long. Yeah, it's like, oh, I have heat proof fingers now.

[Megan Scott]

Okay. And do they have like a wide grip at the bottom or a small grip like, like that grabs the food?

[Sarah Marshall]

It's, it's wide. So, you know, it's like a hinge. It has a hinge in it.

[Megan Scott]

Real tongs, just baby size.

[Sarah Marshall]

Exactly.

[Megan Scott]

You described it perfectly.

[Sarah Marshall]

So, Sarah, you're going to plant potatoes?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I got some potato starts from Sungold Farm. They do the farmer's market with me and they're purple on the outside, but instead of being purple on the inside, they're golden potatoes. So they like cross bred a golden potato and a purple potato.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sounds beautiful.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, So I just got the starts yesterday and we're getting all our beds ready. I know you are just planting potatoes for the first time, but that's one of my favorite things to plant with kids. We do do it at school garden and then we do it here because it's just so fun for them to dig around and find these little treasures.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, super fun.

[Megan Scott]

I'm excited about it. And mostly at the farmer's market right now it's just green vegetables. Like that's all that there is. But I'm excited about it. So I got all kinds of things to stir fry and cook. And I didn't really know that I was preparing for talking about this episode, but I sure am.

[Sarah Marshall]

I'm ready. Yeah, I love this time of year because it is. It's like you're getting. You're getting all these vitamins from the green vegetables after having, you know, potatoes and parsnips and carrots all winter. And it's like freshness.

[Megan Scott]

It's our exciting, like, break into spring. So we're. We're just getting there right now.

[Jon Becker]

Any rhubarb sightings yet?

[Megan Scott]

There is. Rhubarb? Yeah. I saw rhubarb at Marvin Stand at Winter's farm. First rhubarb sighting was this weekend. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

John, what are you thinking about, food wise, this week? Things we've done, things we've eaten, really.

[Jon Becker]

Just the puttanesca that we made the other night with some of our home canned albacore just to kind of make it more substantial. It was really good.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, that was really good.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it did some like, you know, some garlicky breadcrumb pan gratato type situation on top and with some kale. Rob another. I guess it's a sign of spring. I mean, you know, it's overwintered and perking up.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. I feel like Rob. So I. I don't know how common this is in other places, but I feel like robs are very. They feel like a very Portland thing. Like all the farmers do them and they're. You can harvest them from basically any overwintered brassica. So I've seen cabbage rubs, I've seen kale Rob. I've seen Brussels sprout rub.

[Jon Becker]

Collards.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, collards. All of the things.

[Megan Scott]

Well, I think it's because it goes from winter where they can still grow that stuff. And they're usually growing it in like a covered hoop house. But then all of a sudden we go from winter and there'll be like hail on the ground and then we'll get like three warm days of spring, which we call fake spring here, and then everything bolts. And so it was a way for farmers to be like, well, all these plants bolted, but we can still sell them. And then People know what to do with them now. But I think it was a little bit of a learning curve at the farmer's market. Like, people would be like, oh, these are pretty and they kind of have flowers on them. What do I do with it? So it was like people sort of had to teach each other what to do. I feel like.

[Jon Becker]

Well, and also like most of them are not nearly as bitter as actual broccoli raw. So I feel like that's maybe a little confusing for folks.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I think, though. Yeah, I think it's a good. I don't think you see it everywhere. I think it's definitely a Portland market thing.

[Sarah Marshall]

What do you. What do you like to do with them?

[Megan Scott]

I mean, I'll just cut them up and put them in stir fries usually. Or I wrote a recipe one time where I made like a vegetarian version of like a pork loin sandwich, but I roasted the broccoli and then I made a broccoli pesto with the rabe. And I did some kind of seasoning too where I dried the flowers. So I was trying to use like all the parts. So the center one, it's really good. So. And then you melt provolone cheese on it and it's like on a hoagie roll. So it's like a veggie version of like a pork roll sandwich.

[Jon Becker]

Yum.

[Sarah Marshall]

I had a really good broccoli melt in Seattle. I don't remember what all was on it, but it was like a lot of broccoli, a lot of cheese, delicious. You know, crunchy bread. I definitely want to make that at home. I feel like that's a very easy thing we can make. John doesn't believe sandwiches are dinner, though. So he's looking at me like, no.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, you know, come on. Some sandwiches for sure. If you need a knife and fork for it, like an open faced sandwich or maybe like a, like a smothered like torta ahogata type situation. I think of that as dinner. You've just outed me.

[Sarah Marshall]

I guess we'll hash it out later.

[Megan Scott]

I guess so.

[Sarah Marshall]

This week we'd like to welcome Kristin Donnelly to the table. Kristen is a cookbook author, recipe developer, copywriter, and cookbook coach. She was an editor at Food and Wine for eight years and has written two cookbooks, the Modern Potluck and the Short Stack Editions book on cauliflower. She co authored the Chef's Garden and Rice's Life and is currently working on a book about indigenous North American food with chef Sean Sherman and journalist Kate Nelson called Turtle Island. Kristen is also the co host of a podcast called Everything Cookbooks, a podcast for writers, readers, and cooks. Kristen, welcome to the table.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. So I guess I first heard about you from Sarah, I believe, because Sarah took your cookbook proposal workshop, and then I took your cookbook proposal workshop, which was delightful.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, I was gonna say it's a delightful to have you both here, you know, like, at this table.

[Megan Scott]

I know it's exciting to be like, I feel like we're your students in this situation. So it was like, we were both excited for you to come on the.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Call today, even though at the same time, we're also peers in terms of, you know, being in the food world altogether. So. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Could you just tell us a little bit about your podcast, Everything Cookbooks?

[Kristin Donnelly]

Sure. So I co host a podcast with three other cookbook authors, Andrea Nguyen, Molly Stevens, and Kate Leahy. And long before everybody got together on Zoom, we actually got together once a month on Google Meet, starting, I don't know, maybe 2016. And, you know, just to gossip, really, and be like, is this normal? You know, like, you know, what. What are you getting paid? Just share those kinds of things. Complain quite a bit. And, I don't know, at a certain point, I think Kate and I actually had a conversation where I was like, hey, wouldn't it be cool to start a podcast about writing cookbooks? And then at our next meeting, Andrea kind of coincidentally also said, hey, wouldn't it be fun if we started a podcast about writing cookbooks? I'm like, funny you should say. So we decided to try it. And what was funny was in this was like, two. Maybe 20, 21. And I had been playing around with podcasting. I was podcasting about plants. There are still 12 episodes out in the world called for a podcast called Plant Out Loud. I had finished writing the book about the chef's garden. I was super excited about gardening and plants and our relationships as humans with plants. So I basically taught myself to podcast. So when they said they wanted to do it, I was like, all right, I got this. But I did say from the beginning, let's hire an editor, because it's a lot of work, and it'll just make it that much better. So that's how it started. Just really this coincidental, taking these offline chats online. We said, let's do 12 episodes. Let's see what happens. And now we're well over a hundred episodes.

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow.

[Kristin Donnelly]

And, yeah, in the middle of our seventh season.

[Sarah Marshall]

So that's awesome. Congratulations.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, thanks. And we do it because we love it. And then every idea sparks another idea.

[Sarah Marshall]

Can you talk a little bit about what you've been cooking and loving lately?

[Kristin Donnelly]

Sure. So I have a 12 year old and if you have kids who are. I wouldn't even call her picky compared to a lot of other children, but she still has her preferences. And if, you know, if you have a child with preferences who's really vocal when talking about what she doesn't like, sometimes the joy of cooking is quite lost. I'll say. So lately I've been asking her to send me videos of stuff she sees and I'll try to make those things. And it is kind of hilarious the things that she's attracted to because there was something last week where it was like noodles, but they had butter and gochujang as well as cream cheese and parmesan cheese. Like it was just all the things. I feel like there's a lot of recipes where it's just especially all this umami, you know, it's like all these, like, you know, every umami ingredient. So she'll send me stuff and I'll try to cook things based off of that. I don't always go fully with what they're doing because I'm like, this is too much or not, not going to turn out well.

[Jon Becker]

How did that turn out? It sounds interesting.

[Kristin Donnelly]

At least it is interesting. I did. I ended up not following it. I'll say I ended up doing gochujang butter, tiny bit of sour cream. I can't remember if I. I feel like I added some kind of acidity component, maybe a tiny bit of vinegar to perk it up. And it was good, it was fun. I don't know if I'd be excited to make it again.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, I feel like cooking from like a TikTok video is. I've done it a couple times and as someone who develops recipes and I'm sure you can speak to this too, like trying to follow an Internet recipe is just a wild. It's just. Can be a wild experience. You never quite know what's going to happen. But I think it can be fun and I think there are some really good ones.

[Jon Becker]

But yeah, I would imagine if you're taking like a critical stance to it as opposed to like getting really invested in the outcome, then it becomes fun, becomes like, you know, you know, hate cooking, if you will hate cooking.

[Sarah Marshall]

Or just like, okay, I wonder what's going to happen. Let's see.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I'll just be Like, I'll give it a go and see. See how this turns out. But I usually only do that if it seems like it's fast and there's not that many ingredients. But if it's something that seems like it'll be expensive and take a lot of time, I'm like, I'll leave that one to somebody else to figure out if it works. But my daughter too. Like, I think, like you were saying about, like, all the recipes on, like, TikTok and stuff, a lot of them will be like, they will be these umami bombs. But I think that's like how a lot of kids palates are right now. And I think part of that is from eating, like, processed food or like, they're all into Takis and they're all into, like, I see it with just. Even kids at the farmer's market, they'll eat spicier stuff and. And how they tell me that they're, like, into it is they'll be like, I eat Takis. And I'm like, of course you do. Yeah, you'll totally be into my sauce. But it's different than what you're used to, you know, And I think that that's sort of how they are. They're, like, used to all this flavor that comes in these, like, chips and sodas and things like that. So then they want it in their TikTok recipes too.

[Kristin Donnelly]

That makes total sense. And sometimes I do think it's about that shot at the end because you can. As you can imagine, those noodles had that really appealing, sort of like orangey, saucy color. I promise it actually, it does look delicious. And then, you know, when you pull it, it looks really rich and creamy. So she's like, I want that, you know?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Kristin Donnelly]

But I think you're right, Sarah, about. Because she loves Takis and just that, like, palette attunement. So. Yeah, it's not necessarily. It is interesting. It's not a pickiness necessarily toward bl. Bland food all the time. Although she loves anything super carby. I mean, like many children, but. But yeah, it's not always that it needs to be super bland and boring. It's actually more like she wants all the things and then obviously something like a plain vegetable, a rob, as you were talking about, really not appealing.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

It can't compete.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah. How can.

[Megan Scott]

How could.

[Kristin Donnelly]

How could it? Right?

[Megan Scott]

Do you see all the robs and things we were talking about at your farmer's market?

[Kristin Donnelly]

We do. There are some farmers who will over winter. They grow all winter, but it's undercover, and a few of them will, in the spring, bring their bolted brassicas.

[Megan Scott]

And what do you like to do with them?

[Kristin Donnelly]

I usually keep them pretty simple, so maybe just throw them into some fried rice at the end of cooking or. I liked your ideas, though, with putting them on the sandwich with all the cheese. That sounds really good. Probably a way that my daughter would enjoy it more.

[Jon Becker]

I feel like, you know, you really have to check out the raw before you decide how to cook it because sometimes the stems can be a little tough.

[Kristin Donnelly]

So true. Actually, I've made that mistake before, and you're kind of like, it's very fibrous and you're sort of like, pulling it and. Yeah, it's so true.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Better chop this a little. Fine.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

All right. This week in our tasting segment, we are going to try some matcha tea that is from this week's sponsor, Mizuba. And Sarah's gonna make us some tea. I absolutely love watching matcha be made. I like a drink that has accessories.

[Megan Scott]

I know, right?

[Sarah Marshall]

The little whisk is beautiful and so delicate.

[Megan Scott]

So Lauren is a business owner here in Portland that owns mazupa, and she gets the tea grown in Japan. She went to Japan and met a bunch of tea growers when she was on a trip, and she developed this company probably like 10 years ago. I do a lot of events with her, and she always has the little bowls with the matcha whisk. And I've never actually done it before, but she sent us one to do. So I'm pretty excited about it. I always see her at the booth next to me, like, mixing up the matcha. But I thought while I'm mixing it, if you guys wanted to talk about any ways that you use matcha in recipes. I'm going to make a matcha latte today, but it's great for cooking. So I thought if you wanted to talk about it while I'm whisking, Honestly.

[Sarah Marshall]

I haven't cooked a ton with matcha. The one thing I've used it for is ice cream because I think the flavor translates really well with the. The high fat dairy. It just has a nice. A really nice flavor in the dairy. Kind of mutes any of the bitterness. So you just get this really smooth, grassy flavor. I think it would also be really good in popsicles. Now that I'm thinking of it maybe with, like, raspberries or something.

[Jon Becker]

I would try that.

[Megan Scott]

I was thinking it would fit into this episode in particular because we're talking about you know, getting kids to eat different things and kind of adventurous eaters. My daughter loves matcha. She. She started, I think, first having it in, like, boba tea. They would have it in, like, boba tea shops. So that's like, one way. But I think popsicles would be a good, fun way to do it, especially if you mixed it with, like, kiwi or something. Like, I think that would be really cool. I'm just mixing this up. You can probably hear it. But I did some reading about it, and you're supposed to use the whisk to make it in an M and then a W back and forth. That's how you, like, do it. There's like a technique to it.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, I haven't made this with matcha necessarily, but I feel like you could. But, like, I think it's called ochozuke, where you use green tea as a broth. And I've done that with other green tea and maybe some rice and some hot smoked salmon and scallions. Just as like a really simple little dish. But I'd be curious to try it with matcha.

[Sarah Marshall]

Mm, that sounds delicious. It would look beautiful too.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it smells really good. It smells almost like a mix between tea and the sea. A little bit. Like, it's a little bit. You can. You guys can smell it. But I found a really fun recipe that I made for Adeline and It was on Food52, and it's matcha and tahini carrots with garlicky bread crumbs. And that turned out really good. And then the other thing that I've done with matcha is put it into dough for doing, like, pot stickers. The pot sticker dough, and then they're. They're bright green, but you don't taste it so much. Like, it's just like a little bit. It almost feels like a little bit of a seaweed wrapper almost. But it's like the matcha tea, you're right.

[Sarah Marshall]

It does have almost a seaweed kind of scent to it. It's really not a little bit savory.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. So. And you just mix it up until you don't see any more chunks. And then I'm going to pour it in with some steamed milk and then you guys can try it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Delicious. This matcha is really high quality. I know that Lauren works really hard to bring super high quality matcha. Like a lot of times the stuff you get at the. A regular grocery store is it's not as flavorful.

[Megan Scott]

Well, you can tell because it doesn't smell like anything. And it's not as bright.

[Sarah Marshall]

This color isn't as vibrant.

[Megan Scott]

I'm going to try to pour this without spilling it all over the recording equipment. We'll see how I do.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sarah, don't you also have a recipe in your preserving cookbook for matcha? Is it chia pudding or overnight oats?

[Megan Scott]

It's applesauce. Yeah. So it's matcha tea applesauce that you mix the matcha in. I actually used Lauren's matcha in that recipe. We were neighbors when I was developing the cookbook at an event, and I took some of our matcha tea home, and then that inspired the recipe in my book. But so it's. Instead of just making applesauce, it's applesauce, and you make the matcha tea and whisk it in so it's a little bit, like, green, glowy green, and then it has, like, cinnamon and ginger in it. And so when I was developing the recipe, we were eating it for breakfast with, like, nuts and fruit and things like that. So you could just open the jar and have, like, breakfast ready to go.

[Kristin Donnelly]

I think I called it Chia pudding's a fun idea, though.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that is.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Okay, guys, you ready?

[Sarah Marshall]

I'm ready. It's beautiful. That's really nice.

[Megan Scott]

So good. I like it with the milk. And she makes these nice recipe cards, too, that tell you exactly how to do it to put milk in and says you can add sweetener. But I thought this would be a nice thing for kids, too. Like, even if you did it like a hot cocoa, like a matcha hot cocoa, it would be a fun way to get them, like, the antioxidants from the tea. But it would be like a kid friendly green drink.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Kristin Donnelly]

And I wonder, like, in a smoothie, because that's something I will do with my daughter, especially when, I don't know, you know, she does so many activities and you're in middle school. Like, I don't have a lot of control over, like, what she eats every single day, I would say, at this point. So when I'm feeling like, oh, my gosh, I just need to get a bunch of vitamins in you, I usually make some kind of smoothie.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Kristin Donnelly]

I feel like macho would be a nice addition for that.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. I love this particular brand because it just is so. It tastes so clean. Like it doesn't have any of that. Super. Like, sometimes I feel like you get it and it's really bitter.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And I have to say, I think that's a really fun experience to have the whisk. Like, I think that's a way. You too. Like, I think we can talk about it more later. But how I like to get kids involved in things is really to make it interactive. And so I think this is a good, fun way to do it. Like, they'd get into it, into whisking the tea up because it's almost like magical turning this powder into this green tea. Cool liquid.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

There's a ritual I still remember green eggs and ham day at my preschool. That was so long ago.

[Megan Scott]

Would they put green food dye in the egg?

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, yeah. Oh, fun. It was just food dye. Yeah, that's it.

[Kristin Donnelly]

So cute.

[Lauren]

Sarah Marshall of Marshall's Hot Sauce here looking for a hot sauce that's a little different. Let me introduce you to Tortuga Gordo fermented hot sauce, makers of the good food award winning green cobra and rotten hot sauces out of Portland, Oregon. Tortuga Gordo is waiting for you in the refrigerator section of market of choice New Seasons and your local co op or bodega. Or find them online at www.tortucagordo.com. that's T O R T U G A G-O-R- Dash-O.com. they're not with the other hot sauces because they're not like the other hot sauces.

[Sarah Marshall]

All right, before we move on to our interview segment, let's just talk a little bit about the recipe that we made this past week for our Joy Scouts cooking club. John, you actually made the recipe. Can you talk about it?

[Jon Becker]

All right. You're trying to humiliate.

[Megan Scott]

No.

[Jon Becker]

So, yeah, it was a dill batter loaf. It's a delicious bread. It turned out well, despite my incompetence or whatever, I overproofed it quite a bit. We have a bread proofer and I was just a little nervous, you know. Cause, you know, typically you want it like between 75 to 85 degrees. And the bread proofer was like out in the garage and so I set it for 90 degrees.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, no, I didn't know that. You didn't tell me that.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, well, anyways, so, yeah, it was overproofed and it, it just turned into this big kind of overflow, overflowing mess in the oven. Thankfully, I had it on a rimmed baking sheet, so mischief managed or whatever.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, it was still delicious though.

[Jon Becker]

It was. It was good. It's got some cottage cheese in there, some green onion, a ton of dill, some buttermilk. It's so nice and tangy.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. I love the tanginess of the bread. It really. It was. We. Last night, we ate it with borscht, and it was like, the perfect bread for that.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Nice thick slices, toasted a little bit, a little cinnaged around the edges, but it was really good.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Do you guys always use a proofer? I've never used one. I'm like, a proofer novice.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's a relatively new addition to our.

[Jon Becker]

Kitchen, hence why I messed up.

[Sarah Marshall]

Not always. Not in the past. But it's nice if you don't have, you know, if your house is a little cool on the cool side or, like, for us, it's nice to be able to, like. We have a pretty small kitchen, and so we do stash a lot of things in the garage, which is right next to the kitchen. So to be able to put it out there even when it's cold outside and have your little proofing box is. It's very nice and convenient.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I've used it for milk bread before.

[Megan Scott]

If your recipe doesn't tell you to proof it, the step you're using it at is when you're. Whenever you're putting it to the side to, like, rise.

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah, during the bulk fermentation, like the first fermentation, you. You would use it. And then, like, once you put it into a loaf pan, if it's a pan bread, when that. During the second rise, you. You would also put it in there. It's also good for yogurt.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, I should do yogurt again. That was really good. On the subject of the dill bread, I did want to bring up. You were looking at old editions of Joy to see, you know, how it had evolved over the years. And there was one was saying something like, now fresh dill is finally available in the markets. You know, occasionally.

[Jon Becker]

This is the 97 edition.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Because you couldn't buy fresh herbs, like, in the marketplace before that.

[Sarah Marshall]

I suppose not.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Marianne added the recipe in the 1975 edition. And, you know, it calls for, like, dill weed or dill seed, you know, obviously the dried variety. So.

[Sarah Marshall]

But fresh dill is where it's at for that, for that bread. It makes it taste so much better. And this week's recipe is going to be the miso Ramen on page 304. This is a really. I love this recipe because it's pretty simple. Unlike a Tonkatsu ramen, which requires a really long, simmered stock, the miso ramen is a little more straightforward. And you make it's called atare, but it's like a. A se highly seasoned broth that has the red miso and I think sake and mirin and garlic and ginger. And then you add your noodles and whatever toppings you want. So it's a really fun. I think it's really fun, versatile recipe. And you can kind of choose your own adventure with the toppings, which I love. And we'll use. For a long time. We were buying frozen ramen noodles. There's a brand called Sun Noodle and they make really, really great ramen noodles. But you can also just use the packages of dried ramen if. If that's what you have access to.

[Jon Becker]

Those are not all created equal. So definitely recommend the non shim personally.

[Megan Scott]

We just went to. We did a family trip to Ouija Maya and we came back with mostly noodles. Yeah, like all the different kinds of noodles. Like, that's what I mean. My daughter loves noodles. My husband loves noodles. And there's like every. Every kind. They have like one row that's just packaged noodles and then they have one row that's like refrigerator noodles full.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love going there.

[Megan Scott]

It's so fun. We came home with a million and we've. And so every day this week. I didn't even really talk about what I ate this week. Cause I was like, it's all noodles, man.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Which you kind of can't go wrong with a lot of times with kids.

[Megan Scott]

So, yeah, it's been really fun. I mean, we add all the stuff in our. Like, I'll just kind of open the fridge. It's like the easiest thing. I'll just be like, okay, well, here's this package of like, we found these ones that they're called like, ribbon cut.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, yeah, those are so good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, like, they're. I think they're called knife cut.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, Knife cut.

[Megan Scott]

And those ones were a favorite. We got them dry and fresh and then we've just like thrown every vegetable into it. And you, you brought over some sauce? Of course. We have a million kinds of hot sauce. And so it's just like. It's the easiest dinner ever.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Those knife cut noodles are. Have a great ruffly. The texture is really nice.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, they're kind of like bouncy a little bit. They're really good.

[Sarah Marshall]

So. Yeah. Please cook along with us this week. Make the miso ramen recipe. It's on page 304. You can tag us on Instagram he joy of cooking or use the hashtag Joyce Scouts. All right, Kristen, so first of all, what is Your relationship with the Joy of Cooking.

[Kristin Donnelly]

It's funny, I ended up asking my mom about this last week because she always had a copy in the kitchen. It was there alongside the Betty Crocker cookbook. And then eventually, whenever the silver palette came out, then the silver palette joined it right next door. But I was asking her, I'm like, did you have any favorite recipes that you used to make from Joy? Because I distinctly remember there being, like, silver palette recipes, but I don't remember necessarily what was from Joy. And she was thinking about it, and she's like, you know, it really was just the reference. There's no Internet, so you're like, how do I cook a pork chop? Or, you know, how do I. Just those basic everyday things. So she's like, I used it all the time, but. And obviously, like, followed the instructions, but she didn't have necessarily, other than, like, those basic components. She couldn't recall anyway, the, like, a specific recipe. But she. She was just saying, you know, she got married in the 70s, and it was just like every. Every couple was given Betty Crocker and Joy. It was just a. Just a constant reference. And then I have. I was curious. I was like, what? I. I don't even know. I know I had a copy, but I was like, what edition do I have? And so I have the 2006, and then I just got the 2019. And so, yeah, I think for me, it's just mostly been referenced. I'll say that. You know, how does the Joy of Cooking approach this?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, that's kind of. I mean, that's how we. We do have our favorite recipes, but we use it for reference all the time.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some. Some signature recipes in there, but I feel like most people want to just turn to us as a. As a resource, and that's exactly what Marianne wanted for sure. She wanted. Wanted it to be kind of encyclopedic, you know, repository of culinary knowledge.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah. Yeah. And for fun this week, though, I did cook. It was just coincidentally, two chicken dishes from 2019, but the Chinese chicken salad and chicken piccata, and they're just, like, pitch perfect recipes, you know, like, especially the. The Chinese chicken salad. My daughter was obsessed with it.

[Sarah Marshall]

So that's such a good. That's such a good salad. It feels very retro, but in a good way. Not like a jello mold.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, it's retro maybe partially because of the canned Mandarin oranges, which, like, you know, you've gotta love that, like, texture. But, yeah, it had, like, fresh Ginger and just a lot of, like, texture from the crunch. Including the chow mein noodles, which also, like. I don't know, they remind me of, like, college salad bar, you know?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes.

[Kristin Donnelly]

But I use the Napa cabbage as the base, and it's just. That's a vegetable. I. Every time I use it, I love it. And I'm like, why don't I use this every week? So anyway, it was really fun. And then the chicken piccata again, just like, you know, perfect balance of, like, the lemon and the butter and the capers.

[Sarah Marshall]

So awesome.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah. Really fun.

[Megan Scott]

John, I wanted to ask you a quick question, because I think this is maybe the third or fourth time that somebody has mentioned Joy of Cooking and the Betty Crocker cookbook together. Does that happen a lot where it's like, these were the things I was gifted when I moved out or whatever. I feel like this is a story that. That is common. Have you. Do you guys have that cookbook? Do you know that cookbook?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, we have.

[Jon Becker]

We have here.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Is it.

[Megan Scott]

Is there beef?

[Kristin Donnelly]

Tell.

[Sarah Marshall]

There's no beef.

[Jon Becker]

It's hard to beef with, you know.

[Sarah Marshall]

An entity, a fictitious.

[Jon Becker]

Fictitious. Yeah. I feel like we have your grandmother's Betty Crocker.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, my grandmother's Betty Crocker that she got when she. I guess when she got married or possibly even when she was in homec. In high school. It's one of the three ring binder kind of cookbooks.

[Kristin Donnelly]

That's what my mom had, too.

[Sarah Marshall]

And it actually has a metal. Like, the spine is metal and it's all rusted.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it makes me nervous to handle it.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Can I get some tetanus?

[Jon Becker]

There's a worry about tetanus, but also. Also, like, might actually scratch the shelves.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, I'm always worried about it falling apart because it. She obviously used it a lot. And, you know, it's stuffed full of, you know, note cards and things and written in. But it's. It's really fun to look at. The illustrations are wild, you know, very, like, 1950s housewife kind of illustrations. And. But it's not a book I've ever cooked out of, and I don't. She wasn't using it when I was growing up, like, when I was little. I think she had, you know, stopped. She doesn't need it. She doesn't cook from recipes really anymore, I don't think.

[Jon Becker]

Right.

[Sarah Marshall]

So. But yeah, we definitely have a copy of that. And I don't think there's any rivalry, but a lot of people do get both of them.

[Jon Becker]

Well, when we first started working for Joy. I remember we specifically went out to get like the newest edition of Betty Crocker just to, you know, to check out the quote unquote competition. I guess that's how we viewed it back then, but I certainly don't feel that way anymore.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, I mean, my mom was saying, like, in her mind they were pretty different, whereas she, you know, she thought of Betty Crocker is using. I mean, it seemed to embrace more, you know, I guess, like processed ingredients. And Joy, she's like, I went for. To it more for like, how do you do a homemade version of hollandaise or something? So she used them both equally, but they serve different purposes in her kitchen.

[Sarah Marshall]

Speaking of cookbooks, what cookbooks, if any, do you keep in your kitchen?

[Kristin Donnelly]

I, to be honest, I rotate it because just to keep it interesting, I guess. But there are some baking books that have been. That have been in there for a couple years, so it's pretty good. Like Yasi Arafi's Snacking Cakes.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, that's a great book.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah. And then Sarah Keefer's Hundred Cookies. I'm not an avid baker, but if I do bake, I look to those two first because the recipes are so good. The snacking cakes recipes are so easy. If you just need. I just need a cake. You don't want to dirty a lot of dishes, but you also want something flexible because a lot of times those recipes are written to be she addresses. Oh, if you want to bake it in this pan or this pan, if you want to add this to make it more like this. So I think that's the kind of cook I am. So as a. If I'm going to bake, that way of doing so speaks to me.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And I just love having. I love having options or knowing what the options are as a cook. And that's something I think about too, when I'm developing a recipe. Like, where are the. Where are the opportunities for, you know, what. What if somebody only has a loaf pan? What if somebody only has a muffin tin? Like, how can we kind of accommodate that? Yeah, yeah. As a cookbook author and collaborator, what makes a really great cookbook, in your opinion? I think that's a big. That's a really big question.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Well, yeah, and I don't know that it's. It's like if there's like one thing and you know, it is in the end service to a reader, but I think that that service can be different things. There are cookbooks there to be those like Friendly kitchen companions that are going to live in your kitchen, you're going to pull them down, they're going to get sustained. But I still also believe in the value of cookbooks just to be this, like, transportive piece of literature that you read in bed. And, yes, maybe you'll make the recipes, but is the doability of the recipe is the most important thing? I mean, yes, we hope those recipes work, but do those recipes need to be things that you can go get the ingredients for right now and make it? You know, to me, I don't think every book needs to serve that purpose. So I guess in the end, it's like, does the book live up to its promise? That's what makes a great cookbook. But I think those promises can be pretty varied.

[Megan Scott]

I have a question, because I feel like you make people's, like, culinary book dreams come true, and you take their idea and you help them do pitches and all these things. But when did you have that moment that that was going to be a path that you were going to go down? When did you decide that you were going to help people make their book dreams come true?

[Kristin Donnelly]

A good question. I don't know if there's one moment, but it. It's been like an evolution, I guess. I worked at Food and Wine magazine for many years, and I through that, learned how to write recipes, edit recipes, sort of like sell recipes. You know, I mean, there's like, this selling aspect to it. So when I left the magazine, I had in mind, like, oh, it would be cool to work on cookbooks with other people. Melissa Clark, who writes for the New York Times, that's what she did all the time. I mean, she was a cookbook collaborator. And I was like, wow, that is such a cool job. And I had some friends who did that and talked to them a lot about. Took me a while to figure out how to kind of get in. But then once I started doing it, then I started to feel pretty good at it. So I guess it wasn't one moment. But, yeah, now that I have been doing it, there are times when I'm like, wow, I. You know, I do feel like I bring all this value, and it comes just from this long career of experience. So. But I like. I do like helping other people tell their stories. I've realized that that's even, you know, I wrote my own cookbook called Modern Potluck, and people are always like, oh, are you going to do another book? And I still don't know. You know, like, I have to feel really excited and right now, what excites me most as other people's stories and helping them tell their stories, making their cookbook dreams come true, as you say, that feels more gratifying to me. But if someday there is something that gets me really excited, really jazzed, then maybe I'll do another book.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love that. That's kind of some hidden advice that you shared, which is like, you know, when you're thinking about a cookbook project, are you really excited about this? Because you need to be. You're going to need it.

[Kristin Donnelly]

It's years, as you know, it's years.

[Sarah Marshall]

So much work. Yeah. So you need that enthusiasm to help make the project. I mean, I think it should still be fun. It's work, but it's. It should be enjoyable, and it should be something that you really care about.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, yeah. We often say you need to have something to say. Right. I mean, that's. And I also like to emphasize that you need to have someone you're talking to, like, people who want that message or, you know, want what you're. What you're offering. And anymore in publishing, I. I feel like you kind of need that audience first. It doesn't always have to be through social media, although there's a lot of emphasis on that. But you need to have some idea of, like, who's going to be excited about this? Who am I talking to? And that's. I think that ties back to, like, what makes a good book. You know, does the book live up to its promise? Is it helping this audience or inspiring this audience that you're hoping to reach?

[Jon Becker]

I feel like that's a tension that we've struggled with the joy. With the new edition, just because, you know, we don't have. We're trying to reach such a broad readership that it's hard to craft a book to try to meet the needs of such a wide audience. And I guess when you. When you have a wide readership, it seems like completely contrary to what you would be doing if you were trying to craft a cookbook proposal. Like, you. You want to have a more defined audience, whereas, you know, with the Joy of Cooking, we are trying to reach such a wide swath of readers, and the.

[Megan Scott]

The voice is kind of set for Joy of Cooking. Like, the way the recipes are written and the style that they're written in are a way that has been done. So it's a little bit different than, like, when you're creating your. A different, totally different proposal from scratch and you're trying to put yourself into it. It's almost, like, different for you guys, right?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, it's such a. Like John was saying, it's such a big audience. We wanted to include as many people as we could in the kind of the message. But now. Now that we have a little distance on it, I actually do think we could not narrow the audience necessarily, but have a little bit more of an idea of who is using the book and how we could speak to those people better. And you're right. The book has already has a voice, a very distinctive voice that I think over the 10 years that we spent working on that, the 2019 edition, we really kind of absorbed, like, we kind of absorbed Irma's and Marian's voice. But now when I read it, sometimes I think it's not, like a bad thing. It's just like, oh, I think we could. I think we could make this a little more approachable or sometimes the. The language we use in the book is more formal, and I think we could, you know, make it a little more casual. These are quiet thoughts, I think. When I am alone.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Man, I would love to just be a fly on the wall during some of your discussions. Oh, my gosh. We'll definitely have to have you on the podcast, though, so we can, like, really get into the.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, I would love to do that.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah. Because he, you know, I'm sure you're probably working on what's next and thinking.

[Sarah Marshall]

About it, and it's nice to have other people to just bounce ideas off of, because John and I, we just worked together for the most part, and it's just the two of us, so it would be really. I think it'd be healthy to have other people that we're talking to as we start this process again.

[Jon Becker]

No, it does sound luxurious just having some company.

[Megan Scott]

Kristin, how do you help people find their voice as they're crafting cookbooks and. Because I feel like you become part coach, therapist, and writing coach all at the same time.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, well, and then sometimes I'm actually the writer. Right. So sometimes I'm literally writing it for them, which is a totally different thing. I don't know. I guess just by, like, finding the nuggets when they are writing that I'm. That I get excited about and then sort of encouraging, like, go deeper here. But I will say I've more. In the past year, I've been spending most of my time working on that book, Turtle Island. So a lot of that has just been more in the, like, drawing out of a voice and then me actually helping write I think soon enough I'm going to be switching back to like helping other people craft. But yeah, I think sometimes, just in general, we can see like the potential of a person more than they can see themselves. Not just in cookbook writing, in anything, you know, and so it's like helping people push through that self doubt or that little thing that might be holding them back because you're like, no, I see it. You know, I see this potential.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, I love, I love finding those. As an editor, when you read a story or you read an essay, it's kind of like the parts that are boring, maybe they need to be cut. And the parts that are really interesting, it's like, ooh, tell me more about that. Like, I want to know more about this thing that you just said, because that's really interesting.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah. And sometimes you can't because if you're such an expert, you forget, you know, you almost like lose track of what might be interesting to people.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Kristin Donnelly]

I do think that there's like a value in teaching in some ways, like teaching, like cooking teachers. Molly Stevens was a cooking teacher for so long. And in some, you're just getting this live feedback from people and seeing the gaps in their knowledge. So you, you don't forget necessarily or, you know, I know, Sarah, like, you're at the market a lot, so you're probably just talking with people all the time and in touch with what they need. So. But totally, as I agree with you as an editor, sometimes, you know, it's called burying the lead sometimes. Right. It's like people.

[Megan Scott]

But that's the thing that you really helped me with in the class too, was like, I am in front of people all the time and I can. And I'm usually telling them how to cook something with produce from the market. So I'm like, oh, yeah, you take this. And it's very, it's. I try to do these very simple like, like, you know, under five ingredients, like just using this vegetable. But I. And then I'll, I'll like post it on a recipe card or something that I can just hand them real quick. And I never think about the names of things and making them sound really appealing because I'll be like, oh, yeah, do these like butter radishes or whatever. Like, it'll just be like the simplest title. And when I was in your class, as soon as you would like, say what I called something in your. I. I think of it as like magazine voice.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Oh.

[Megan Scott]

It was like, oh, right, right. People have to just read the title and Want to make it. Because usually I'm just there telling them about it, and they're like, yeah, I'm totally going to make this. But it's different when it's on paper than when it's in person, you know, and when I'm not there to be to sell it to them, you know? And so I really. Now I pay attention to, like, titles of things, but I never did before. I just called it, like, whatever it was, like, the. The three main ingredients of the dish.

[Sarah Marshall]

That was it.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Oh, yeah. Chefs do that a lot. You know, it'll be like radish, butter, chive, whatever. Yeah, that's. It's interesting. And I. I guess it is a magazine thing, because, you know, magazines, it's editorial, but it's. There's a. There is a sales aspect to it where you're, like, trying to sell the recipe. And it's funny that I end up doing more and more copywriting. There's, you know, that's a very, like, salesy way of writing to a certain extent, but I always frame it as just trying to be, you know, empathetic. Like, you're trying to get in to somebody's, like, mind a little bit and be like, what do they really want? Like, you know, what can I say that will make them excited? And I do think that's important for. Especially just, like, with the attention. I mean, our attention is so divided constantly. So I don't know, a little bit of that, like, sales type of language. And by that, I just mean. Yeah, making something sound yummy.

[Jon Becker]

Speaking of sales, what sells you on a recipe? What is there something that you really respond to? Beyond. Beyond. Just the titling.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah. It's like the word pistachio. It's funny. Even when I worked at Food and Wine, there, I guess there was like, an inside joke in the kitchen where they were like, oh, if it has pistachios, Kristen's gonna be like, things. Something I didn't even realize about myself. Yeah, like pistachio, or pistachio and lemon together often sells me. But what else I do, like, when things are at this point in my life, like, fairly short either, you know, if it doesn't even have to be a short ingredient list, but it has to be a short list of things that I need to buy. Like, if it's, you know, if you have all the condiments in your fridge or in your cabinet and it's a few things you add, I'm fine with a longer ingredient list, but I guess generally easy to source unless Unless I'm looking for that project. And I think I forget who it was, who we spoke to. But there was a might be Andy Barragani and he has this rule when writing a recipe that's either your ingredient list is long and your method short or your method is long and your ingredient list is short. And that makes sense to me and I think subconsciously that draws me to a recipe sometimes one or the other. But it is fun when something has a little twist.

[Jon Becker]

Those are nice common sense appeal to that. You're either spending a lot of time sourcing or a lot of time in the kitchen.

[Sarah Marshall]

So yeah, something has to give so you can't have all the things all the time. It kind of reminds me of when we have some friends who we like to go. Well, they like to go hiking a lot. And their rule is like, it can be. It can be wet and windy, but it can't be wet, windy and cold. Like if it's all three things not going. And that's how I feel about recipes. Like you were saying, like, you know, if the ingredient list is long and the method is long and I have to make a special trip, I. It's just probably not going to happen, you know?

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, yeah, totally. Or it's like if it's for some reason just sounds so amazing, then I set aside that time. But that's not going to be what I'm going to make every week.

[Sarah Marshall]

Since you have written a book about potlucks, what is your go to potluck dish?

[Kristin Donnelly]

It's so funny. Some, some of the recipes in modern potluck are still my go to recipes. One is the carrots and lentils on the COVID That's a dish I make regularly. Still at home. I'm always. It's one of those dishes where it's like, it's a framework and you can totally bury it. So I don't even, to tell the truth, I don't even remember what exactly is in the recipe from us. Like they're the carrots have a spice mixture tossed on them before they're roasted. And I think that there is like a dried fruit and nut at the end, but I actually don't even remember and I vary that all the time. So it's like sometimes there's dried figs, sometimes dates, you know. But I will bring that to certain gatherings, especially in that. Not summer, those summer months. Let's think there are a couple of tomato, like really easy tomato salads in the book that I'll make in the summer. One is I think I called it like vegan caprese, but it's really this white beans cook till they're fairly soft, so they get kind of lightly mashed with olive oil. I don't totally remember what else. Salt, probably some kind of aromatic thing. And then that's served with a tomato salad and there is like this creamy tomatoey combo that happens. But there's another version where I actually use ricotta and it's a bed of ricotta that's seasoned and then you put the tomatoes in the center and it's just. It gets really messy and that's part of the fun. So I'll make that a lot in the summer. What else?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, I feel like there's a. Anything that is delicious at room temperature. It's kind of a potluck situation.

[Kristin Donnelly]

There's a chapter just on those room temperature dishes and certainly baking. But then some things, you know, that can be good hot, that you can keep hot. Like a, that sort of a crowd. Like a big braised thing or casserole type thing. Yeah. Growing up, my. I have a large extended family in the area. So growing up, everything was a potluck, more or less. And everybody comes with their crock pots.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes. I was going to say that's. That was how I grew up as well. Like big family, lots of potlucks, lots of crock pots. And my. I remember they had these little. I don't know what you call them, but it's like a carrying case for your Pyrex and it keeps it warm. Yeah.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, totally. I think things that hold up at room temperature are perfect for potlucks, especially if you don't know the, like the ambient temperature or the electrical situation. But there's always ways to, to make warm dishes work for certain parties. If you can bring that crock pot or casserole carrier as you're describing.

[Jon Becker]

I still remember being so impressed with the Christmas potluck situation at your family's ancestral cabin that I just remember taking the iPhone that had just come out with the panorama feature and just going down the entire table. Of course, looking back at that picture, it's pretty hard to decipher what's going.

[Sarah Marshall]

On, but pretty epic. You can tell something epic is going on. Kristen, where can our listeners follow you?

[Kristin Donnelly]

So I am on Instagram hristencdonnelly. Don't forget the little C in the middle. But then [e-mail] Cooking with Matcha.

[Lauren]

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[Megan Scott]

[e-mail] that's M I Z U B.

[Lauren]

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[Sarah Marshall]

All right, so now we're going to jump into our weekly topic which is veggie friendly or veggie heavy noodle dishes. So Sarah, could you please play the question for us?

[Ashley]

This is Ashley calling from Denver. Thank you for your wonderful podcast. It has quickly become my favorite. My question is about cooking for a 12 year old who loves sushi. He also really likes ramen and noodle dishes. But I'm looking to expand his horizons a little more and especially to incorporate more vegetables into the Asian spectrum of foods we eat. So it seems like you have a lot of ideas about using different vegetables. And do you have any recipes for not stir fries but noodles? I would love to hear them. Thanks.

[Sarah Marshall]

Thanks for the question, Ashley and thanks for listening to the show. That's really awesome. And I love hearing that people like the podcast. That's rad. So the first thing that came to mind for me was sesame noodles. So we do have a recipe for sesame noodles. Enjoy. It's on page 302. And I think of it as like kind of a kid friendly, just flavor combo because you've got like that, it's almost like a peanut butter. It's sesame, but it has a peanut butter vibe.

[Jon Becker]

And we were talking about how it would be kind of a great base for maybe doing just like some steamed or some roasted broccoli. But yeah, just make a little bit extra of that sauce. And I feel like that sauce could almost be like, it's, it would be like the equivalent of putting like a creamy cheddar sauce under broccoli, hiding broccoli underneath or whatever. You could use that sauce on any vegetable and I think I would imagine that a lot of kids would be into it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, I was also thinking that dish would be really good with roasted sweet potatoes. Either cubed. I like to just cut the sweet potato in half down the middle and roast it cut side down on a baking sheet. Cause that cuts the time in half that it takes to roast it. But that would be really delicious with that sesame sauce. And the recipe does have cucumber and carrot in it, already raw. But yeah, I think it would be great with even, even more veggies.

[Megan Scott]

One of the joy recipes that I like to make for Adeline is the honey glazed carrots that you guys have. And then we'll do those, but then toss them with noodles and it's like a great kid friendly thing. I think anytime you can add a little sweetness, like with honey or maple and roast things with vegetables. Kids seem to be pretty into it. So I think that's a good trick. I don't think you necessarily have to trick kids into eating vegetables, but I just think it like makes it appealing to them. The other thing that I was going to talk about is like in our house we always do really interactive eating. So you know, our kid's kind of a busy body, she doesn't like to sit still. So like dinner, if we make it an interactive experience, we'll do like salad rolls where you can like put. We'll just chop all these different vegetables and they can make their own things. But with those ones, you know, you can dip the rice paper in the water and then the kids can roll their own. That's a really fun way. And then another way to do things is like of course everybody likes fried food, but doing like tempura vegetables. But sometimes if you make the batter really thick, then the kids can't really tell what the vegetables are. And so it's like more. Rather than hiding it, it's more of a guessing game. Like is this a potato or is this a parsnip or you know, whatever it is. And so that's kind of a fun way to get them to try new things.

[Jon Becker]

Well then there's also. You could just lean into the love of ramen, you know, I mean there's plenty of toppings that you could put on that ramen that would make it more wholesome, more vegetable centric. Corn kernels like on top. That's a pretty classic.

[Sarah Marshall]

I like to saute the corn kernels in butter and then put them on the. Something about the butter. Butter and ramen is so good. I mean butter is just good. But that and roasted mushrooms is another favorite ramen topping.

[Jon Becker]

Bamboo shoots, that might be a non starter, I'm not sure.

[Sarah Marshall]

But also like roasted tomato. Like a halved kind of charred, maybe broiled. Or you could roast some cherry tomatoes. That might be easier, but that would be a fun topping. Another thing that I just thought of that is it's not a noodle dish, per se, but you do serve noodles with it often is hot potato, which is super fun and interactive. And you get to choose what you put in the pot. And any veggie is kind of fair game for that. Yeah. I always have a really good time when we make. When we make hot pot. I feel like a big kid. I'm just like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna put a sweet potato in there. I'm Put a lotus root in there. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

See, even adults like the interactive experience. It just makes it so fun.

[Kristin Donnelly]

I had a few thoughts, which is. So I wrote this short stack about cauliflower, and I'm realizing, like, oh, and you could roast cauliflower and put it on the ramen. But I also tend to always keep around a bag of the frozen cauliflower rice just because it's so easy to throw into stuff. You were talking about salad wraps, but I feel like with lettuce wraps, you could make a really seasoned something where maybe there's like, walnuts and cauliflower rice. And I don't know, like, whether it's beans or, like, play around with mixtures that might almost have a ground beef meat, like, texture, but make it really seasoned and then. Yeah. Like toppings and make that interactive. And we make a lot of fried rice at my house.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Perhaps even more than noodles anymore. And obviously that's a great. Like, just throw in any veggie. And I think because we're in this. The seasons, like, this transition from winter to spring, and our spring takes a while to get started. I've been buying a lot more frozen vegetables just to have, like, the cauliflower rice, but also frozen peas, I feel like, tend to be pretty good. Yeah. Oh, and one more is. I. I don't know. Every so often I'll make almost, like, nachos, but basically roasted, sliced, roasted sweet potatoes as sort of like, the base.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, okay.

[Kristin Donnelly]

They're not always crispy. You know, you can get it toward a crispier thing, but it's less about that. But it's. It's like you roast these sweet potato coins, and then you layer on some kind of flavorful bean topping, and then obviously do whatever else you want. It could be, you know, a bunch of cheese or berries, hot sauces. And I feel like with that, like, we were talking about the beginning with some kids really loving that, like, lots of umami. That's a really good way to bring that in. But also have it be very veggie oriented.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love that idea. I was also thinking a lot about udon, because I just love the texture of udon so much. And you can do a lot with it. Like, I remember we've. We've done like a. What was it? A Japanese curry udon dish. And we'll put, you know, chunks of carrots in there and potatoes and things like that, and serve it with some steamed bok choy on the side. And it's such a hearty. It's like, it feels like a very. It's just very comforting meal. And that, that curry sauce is so delicious. But we also brought another book that you should definitely check out for good veggie recipes is Tender heart by Hetty McKinnon. I looked in the index just to see what noodle dishes she has in there, and there are quite a few.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it's like two dozen.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, that's a great one. She is just a recipe machine, and she's really good at, like, bringing in lots of veggies, but. And then they're always being something that's a little bit interesting or a twist and often not needing to source a lot of things, especially if you have a pretty. Pretty good pantry.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I was eyeing the mushroom cow soy.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, that looks really excellent.

[Jon Becker]

I love cow soy. Highly recommend cow soy. I think the caller was also just like, oh, we need to branch out a little bit, and there are a lot of other noodle soups out there that are fantastic.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Ashley, I hope we gave you enough ideas. I think it was really fun to answer your question. So thank. Thanks again for calling in.

[Sarah Marshall]

If you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you. And next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Megan Scott]

I recently made Joy of Cooking Chicken Tagine with Chickpeas. You used preserved lemons in the recipe, and now I have a whole jar of preserved lemons. What are some of your favorite recipes with preserved lemons?

[Sarah Marshall]

Awesome. I love this question. And this is like the classic thing that happens where you buy a ingredient and then don't know what to do with it. So I'm. Yeah, I'm looking forward to answering this one next week. All right, everybody, what are we thinking about for this week? What are we Cooking.

[Megan Scott]

Well, we went on a family trip to Powell's yesterday, which can be dangerous because, of course, their cookbook section is amazing. So Dirk picked out a cookbook called Cuisine on Screen. And I think when he was on the show, he talked about a movie, Little Forest, but there's some recipes from in that.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, that's cool.

[Megan Scott]

And they do, like, a tempura fried cabbage, and so we're gonna make that and. And some of the other recipes from the book. So that's what I'm stoked on. And it's a beautiful book. If anybody's interested in film and food. It goes through all these different Japanese movies and then gives you the recipes from them.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's really.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's a perfect book for Dirk, too.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I know. I know. He was stoked.

[Sarah Marshall]

So I think tomorrow or Tuesday, I'm gonna be making rhubarb conserve recipes. Recipe. That's. Enjoy. And that's. That's a fantastic recipe. I haven't made it in a few years, but it's almost between a jam and a marmalade. It has you. You take an orange and a lemon, and you thinly slice them, and then you cook them with rhubarb. And I think golden raisins are in there, and there's fresh ginger. But it's just a really nice way to use rhubarb. And if you use, like, the bright pink stuff, it turns out a beautiful color. So that's what I'm bringing to canning club this week. Week.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, I'm so excited. I forgot it was canning club week.

[Kristin Donnelly]

That's so Portland.

[Jon Becker]

We can pickle that.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's honestly how I've made. When we moved to Portland in 2013, that was how I kind of made all my friends in Portland was. I found the canning club and everybody was pretty rad. So I've just been hanging out with those people ever since.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's how we met.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Clearly it worked.

[Sarah Marshall]

We're also getting our last winter CSA this week. And I noticed that we're supposed to get one final winter squash, which I. I love winter squash. I am kind of glad it's almost over, though.

[Megan Scott]

You need a break. It's like when you need a break, you need a break.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

I did see that there was some green garlic in the market. So maybe combine, you know, the first of the spring green garlic with some of the winter. Last winter squash.

[Sarah Marshall]

I like that idea. Well, that's a good idea. What about you, Kristen? What are you cooking this week or thinking About.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Well, as I mentioned, I've asked my daughter to send me videos, so what she wants. So this might actually be really good for the caller, which she sent me a cucumber sushi where you basically create ribbons from the cucumber and overlap them. And this one in particular has like a. Looks like a tuna salad and some lettuce as well as hot sauce and there's like a cream cheese base. I don't know, we'll see. But there'll be something inspired by this, I have a feeling. But this feels like a good idea perhaps for that color as well to play around with. Basically using cucumber as a wrapper, but maybe with sushi style fillings.

[Sarah Marshall]

Nice. Yeah, that's a really good suggestion. You can go in a lot of directions from there.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Becker]

My first instinct was have you heard of this thing called tarashi? It's a lot easier than making sushi sushi.

[Kristin Donnelly]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, Just put it on rice.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, just put it on rice.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, there's also the hand rolls.

[Jon Becker]

True.

[Sarah Marshall]

You could do hand rolls. That's kind of fun for a kid. Yeah, I mean, it's fun for me.

[Kristin Donnelly]

I've done them and, and just. Yeah, like general rice bowls.

[Megan Scott]

We'll just to put out just pieces of seaweed and you can just like grab all the different things. So it's kind of like non fussy sushi. You know, you just like do it yourself at the table. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review on Apple podcasts and itunes. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle. What are we tackling? We're tackling preserved lemon. And don't forget to make this week's recipe miso Ramen on page 344. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Megan Scott]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dreske, our production coordinator, and Hayley Bowers, our audio engineer.

[Jon Becker]

Sa.