Claudia Lucero on Curds and Whey

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast — Claudia Lucero on Curds and Whey (May 13, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode brings together hosts Megan Scott, John Becker, and Shannon Larson as they welcome Portland-based cheesemaker, author, and educator Claudia Lucero. Together, they dive into the joys (and occasional mishaps) of cheese making at home, creative uses for whey, nostalgic tales of Joy of Cooking editions, and the weirdly comforting world of fermentation. Peppered with humor, practical wisdom, and delicious-sounding kitchen talk, this episode is an invitation to get curious, experiment in the kitchen, and savor both tradition and reinvention.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What’s Everyone Cooking Lately?

[02:18–06:50]

• Shannon shares her ongoing “natto for breakfast” phase and plugs Ambo, an Ethiopian restaurant in Bellingham, WA, praising injera and tibs.
• Megan reminisces about making flourless nut balls (which turn out as cookies)—a Joy recipe with a funny name (“I got to say nut and balls over and over and over in my video, which was very fun.” – Megan, [05:35]).
• The team discusses maple syrup pie, a simple but deeply satisfying recipe—“The salt makes it. Yeah, really does. I’m really pleased with how it turned out.” – Megan, [06:23].

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2. Meet Claudia Lucero

[08:29+]

• Introduced as the founder of Urban Cheesecraft, author of One Hour Cheese and Cooking with Whey, and a pillar in the Portland food and fermentation scene. Claudia is described as a DIY cheese evangelist and fermentation festival co-organizer.
• What has Claudia been cooking?: “Kind of not glamorous, but a ton of cabbage. You guys, I’m just like cab cabbage crazy.” – Claudia, [08:44]. She’s into slaws, roasted cabbage, sauerkraut…and black lentils (“I sort of accidentally ended up making a type of falafel...It was just a falafel kind of thing, so then I went full on with flatbread and all the pickles and yummy stuff.” – Claudia, [09:27]).

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3. Lentils/Bulk Beans: Talk About Bean Subscriptions!

[10:48–12:46]

• The crew chats about bean subscriptions, lentil inspiration, and the Egyptian street food koshari: “It’s a carb fest. And it’s wonderful and delicious.” – Jon, [12:01].
• Megan admits she “doesn’t feel inspired” by lentils, and Claudia offers the tip to use black lentils in place of black beans for Mexican dishes.

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4. Claudia’s Signature Dish & Tortilla Talks

[12:54–16:44]

• Claudia’s go-to: Chilaquiles, but with strong opinions: “The tortilla really matters. And I think it does matter that they’re stale…Trader Joe’s tortillas that I really just don’t like for most things work well for chilaquiles, sort of pre stale.” – Claudia, [14:42].
• Discussion of shortcut methods, crispy vs. soggy, and why restaurant chilaquiles often disappoint (“That is like a nacho, you know?...I’d like to try yours, John, maybe.” – Claudia, [15:21]).

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5. Claudia’s Joy of Cooking Origin Story

[16:50–19:59]

• Claudia’s 1975 Joy edition is a “time capsule,” brought with her from California to Portland, and her “gateway to pie crusts,” and later to butchering after shifting from vegetarian to omnivore.
• Joy as a thrift store treasure and a living record, often including previous owners’ dog-eared, annotated pages.

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6. How Claudia Became a Cheese Maker

[20:00–23:41]

• Claudia details her Portland move and pursuit of homesteading skills: pies → bread → butter → yogurt → cheese.
• She describes the “awe of science” moment with cheese and her natural urge to teach, leading to one-hour cheese kits and classes: “No. Do they know they can make mozzarella in one hour?” – Claudia, [21:40].
• Her gateway cheese: Paneer (“It was definitely my gateway cheese. I was just like, and now you can fry it and now you can put it in a curry. Like, what? This is…” – Claudia, [22:14]).

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7. The Realities and Magic of Home Cheese Making

[25:31–30:58]

• Milk Quality: Always start with whole milk—even better if it’s rich, like “Jersey milk.” Fresh cheeses (paneer, ricotta, halloumi) are most rewarding at home; aged cheeses take more milk & patience.
• Why make cheese at home?: “If you’re a curious cook and you like this sort of magic… But I think there’s a big misconception about it being expensive…” – Claudia, [27:09].
• Yields: “Like a pound and a half.” – Claudia, on halloumi/paneer yield per gallon ([28:37]).
• Beginner cheeses: Start with ricotta or paneer, then try halloumi before attempting mozzarella due to its tricky “stretching” phase.
• Burrata gets a shout-out as the “luxurious” next step: “Let me guess what class you want me to teach. I really try to push burrata because it’s not harder at all…” – Claudia, [30:44].
• Fun cheese lore: Burrata was invented to use up day-old mozzarella, soaked in cream, and sold as a luxury. “Luxury from frugality.” – Jon, [31:54].

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8. Cooking with Whey: “Don’t Dump That Liquid Gold!”

[33:01–37:35]

• Claudia highlights that whey is nearly three-quarters of your original milk, with minerals and lactose (“It tastes like really low fat milk...there’s a creaminess and it has body. This, this liquid, it’s not just water.” – Claudia, [33:11–34:21]).
• Easy uses: smoothies, oatmeal, chowders (especially “roasted butternut delicata squash and corn chowder”), baking, soups.
• Fun fact: Milk clarification in cocktails, distilling whey into vodka. “You can turn anything into alcohol.” – Megan, [35:08].
• Norwegian brown cheese (brunost): “Talk about things that aren’t really worth it to make—that one is kind of ridiculous to make at home. But I had to for the book.” – Claudia, [36:09]. Delicious, but a lot of work.

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9. Fermentation Festival & “The Bacterial Petting Zoo”

[37:35–42:05]

• Claudia co-organizes the “Portland Fermentation Festival," lovingly nicknamed Stinkfest ("the whole place just smells like kimchi..." [38:24]).
• “Petting zoo”: A tactile, teaching station for live cultures—kombucha SCOBYs, kefir grains, tempeh, natto, and more. “I just want people to like, touch and smell and go 'eww'.” – Claudia, [38:53].
• “Nat-toe” gets much love (“I did not think I would love it. And it’s all the things that I love: chocolate and caramel and toasted nuts and coffee. It’s just like, all those things.” – Claudia, [39:35]).
• Safety note: Keeping ferments can go awry if neglected—funny/poignant tales of moldy jars and bacterial “pets.” “If you are not responsible enough to take care of your things in jars, you cannot keep them.” – Claudia, [42:05].

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10. Listener Q&A: Joy of Cooking Edition Rarities

[43:46–49:55]

• The rarest Joy of Cooking editions: 1931 original (about 3,000 printed—often $5,000+), especially scarce with dust jackets. 1936 is also rare; it debuted the modern “action method” recipe format.
• Wartime 1943 edition has historical charm for ration-friendly recipes.
• Oddities: a 1997 CD-ROM (virtually unusable now but ultra-rare), unlicensed comb-bound 1975 editions, and prized editions once owned by pop culture icons (a Marilyn Monroe copy went for the equivalent of $58,000 today).
• What makes a copy “valuable” in spirit: Handwritten notes from prior owners, visible kitchen wear and history (“I love them so much… so special.” – Shannon, [54:12]).

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11. This Week’s Joy Scouts Recipe

[53:08–54:19]

• Paneer (p. 245): Inspired by Claudia’s “gateway cheese.”
  • Use it in palak paneer, lettuce wraps, cheese “croutons,” or sautéed with curry spices.
  • “It is truly so easy to make and so rewarding and you can use it right away...” – Megan, [53:12].
  • Claudia’s favorite: Sear paneer with ghee and spices, serve in crisp lettuce wraps or with kimchi ([53:42]).
  • Share results by tagging @thejoyofcooking on Instagram!

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12. Ending Roundtable: What’s Coming Out of Our Kitchens?

[55:17–59:30]

• Shannon: “Girl dinner” for one while husband’s away: sushi and pickles, no meal plan, pure joy.
• Claudia: Craving fish tacos with tilapia and, of course, cabbage.
• Megan & Jon: Planning a pizza night in their backyard pizza oven (inspired by Turkish motifs and potato-pesto combos), and reflecting on the chaos and fun of DIY pizza parties.
• Claudia’s cheese class: Claudia has recorded a quick stracciatella (burrata-filling!) video lesson for listeners ([59:44]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you are not responsible enough to take care of your things in jars, you cannot keep them.” — Claudia Lucero, [42:05]
• “Let me guess what class you want me to teach. I really try to push burrata because it’s not harder at all…” — Claudia Lucero, [30:44]
• “I got to say nut and balls over and over and over in my video, which was very fun.” — Megan Scott, [05:35]
• “I just want people to like, touch and smell and go 'eww'.” — Claudia Lucero on the fermentation festival petting zoo, [38:53]
• “Luxury from frugality.” — Jon Becker on the history of burrata, [31:54]
• “The tortilla really matters. And I think it does matter that they’re stale…” — Claudia Lucero, [14:42]
• “We have held onto this paperback edition that somebody put into a Ziploc and sent to us. Cause it was completely falling apart and was just like...there was just the sweetest note.” — Jon Becker, [50:13]
• “If you’re a curious cook and you like this sort of magic, you know, type of result, that’s a huge reason.” — Claudia Lucero, on home cheese making, [27:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [08:29] — Claudia Lucero introduction & food obsessions
• [16:50] — Claudia’s relationship to Joy of Cooking
• [20:00] — Journey into cheese making & DIY kits
• [33:01] — Cooking with whey: creative uses
• [37:35] — Highlight: Portland Fermentation Festival, “bacterial petting zoo,” and natto talk
• [43:46] — Listener Q&A: rare Joy of Cooking editions & cookbook collecting
• [53:08] — Joy Scouts recipe assignment: paneer
• [55:17] — Hosts’ upcoming kitchen adventures

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Connect with This Episode

• Joy of Cooking on Instagram: @thejoyofcooking
• Claudia Lucero on Instagram: @urbancheesecraft
• Claudia’s Stracciatella mini-class: Linked in episode show notes
• Join the conversation: Call [phone] with questions, stories, and recipe triumphs!

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Takeaways

Whether you’re an aspiring cheesemaker, a fermentation tinkerer, or simply sentimental about well-worn cookbooks, this episode serves as a joyful reminder of the power and pleasure of home cooking, experimentation, and community—both at the table and through the generations.

Transcript

[Claudia Lucero]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we gather around the table to share recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and mishaps, and what we're cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, Joy of Cooking user and fan and natto enthusiast.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And I'll never kick a potato out of bed.

[Jon Becker]

I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And if I was forced to be a vegetable, I would aspire to be the onion. Indispensable, long storage life packed with flavor can be sweet if treated gently. Layers and layers of protection will make you cry if cut can blend into the background or take center stage and overpower everything else. That was too long.

[Megan Scott]

Wow.

[Jon Becker]

Sorry. Just kept going with that one.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm surprised you didn't change it to potato after Megan's intro.

[Megan Scott]

Are you a.

[Jon Becker]

Well, you know, I mean, they're both

[Megan Scott]

emotionally more of a potato, and I mean that in a very good way.

[Jon Becker]

What? You don't think I have layers?

[Megan Scott]

You know that's not what I meant.

[Jon Becker]

But they're both pantry items, right?

[Megan Scott]

I just like potatoes. Well, I like onions. You know how I am gonna say

[Shannon Larson]

I like potatoes more?

[Megan Scott]

I like potatoes more than onions. Yeah. Because onions have to be a specific way for me to like.

[Jon Becker]

So you're telling me that you would kick an onion out of bed?

[Megan Scott]

It depends, but yes.

[Jon Becker]

Okay, well, I'll reevaluate and come back with an even longer intro.

[Megan Scott]

Shannon, what have you been cooking this week?

[Shannon Larson]

I've restarted my eating nacho for breakfast thing. I actually went shopping with a co worker of mine at Provador the other day because he was like, I need

[Megan Scott]

to go grocery shopping.

[Shannon Larson]

And I'm like, I want to walk around Provador. And I picked it up and he's like, ew.

[Megan Scott]

Oh.

[Shannon Larson]

A lot of people have weird reactions to it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Do they have the wapaku?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Okay.

[Shannon Larson]

Which is what I get. And I think it's great. And it makes me feel really good.

[Megan Scott]

I like it with the mustard, the little spicy mustard that comes.

[Shannon Larson]

I eat it in the morning with some rice and an egg on it, and it's just like it.

[Jon Becker]

Do you whip it?

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yes, of course.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you gotta whip It.

[Jon Becker]

Okay.

[Shannon Larson]

I think that's why people don't like it.

[Megan Scott]

It looks a little stringy.

[Shannon Larson]

Naughty.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But I love it.

[Shannon Larson]

So I'm in my natto phase again for breakfast. And then I did wanna make a plug for. I was up in Bellingham, Washington, last week for work, and there was an Ethiopian restaurant we ate at called Ambo or Ambo a M B O. And it was really, really good. So if you're up in Bellingham, plug for this restaurant. Ethiopian restaurant. It's probably the only one in Bellingham.

[Megan Scott]

What did you get?

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, we got a mix of things, but everything was perfect. Yeah, it was so tasty.

[Megan Scott]

I love the greens. I could eat. I could just eat a giant plate of greens and be. Be happy.

[Shannon Larson]

I could eat injera every single day, every day of my life and be happy.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I could eat tibs every day.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yep.

[Shannon Larson]

So little plug for this restaurant that I been to. Bellingham, Washington, is also adorable. So highly recommend visiting. What have you guys been up to? It's been a little bit since I've seen you.

[Megan Scott]

I know. We saw your cats more recently than we saw you. They were delightful. Feeding time's a little bit chaotic.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

There are four of them, so. Yeah, I don't say that publicly very often. They're all. They're delightful. Just requires a little bit of strategy, I would say. What have we been making? So I made. So several episodes ago when we had Cheryl KE Thompson on from Nancy's Yogurt, she brought up the flourless nut balls recipe.

[Shannon Larson]

Saw your video.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I just posted a reel on Instagram of that recipe today, and it was an interesting experience because they definitely don't turn out as balls. They are cookies. They flatten into cookies. So I made them into nice balls, and they just flattened.

[Jon Becker]

Which is actually why we kind of decided to kind of kick them out of the 2019 edition, was because we had certain expectations from the name, and then they ended up, like, flattening out almost like some of the, like. I think the particular cookie that we were thinking it kind of duplicated or was close to was pecan lace cookies. And. Yeah, but. But they're so good.

[Megan Scott]

But they're great. I mean, they're mostly, it's just pecans, an egg white, brown sugar, like a tiny amount of butter, like half a tablespoon of butter. The method's a little funky. Like, you grind up the nuts, and then you mix them in a pot with those ingredients over very low heat until it comes together, which is very vague. So it's a little bit like, I don't know what I'm looking for here. But they turned out well. I think they just need, you know, to be rebranded or something like saucers.

[Claudia Lucero]

I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

I don't know. Just. I have to think about it. Pecan crunch cookies or something, you know, like, just make it sound cute.

[Shannon Larson]

But they were good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And I got to say nut and balls over and over and over in my video, which was very fun.

[Jon Becker]

I seem to remember that in the lead up to the 2006 edition, there was a lot of giggling over that. And that might actually be one of the reasons why they decided to include them again in the 2006 edition.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Probably just the funny name. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

We also made the recipe of the week from last week, which was the maple syrup pie on page 678, which we brought it right now. We're eating it right now. It's. What do you think, Shannon?

[Shannon Larson]

It's so good. And honestly, I wouldn't pick that recipe out because I'm not a huge sweet person, but it's not as sweet as it sounds. And what John was saying before this is that you can put honey or you can use honey instead maple syrup, but it is so good. And this sprinkle of salt on top.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, the salt makes it. Yeah, really does. I'm really pleased with how it turned out.

[Claudia Lucero]

It's pretty.

[Megan Scott]

It's a simple pie, but it's very attractive and homely. I love it. What do you think, John?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I think it's great. It's really good.

[Megan Scott]

Thank you.

[Jon Becker]

No, the flaky salt makes it. And I think it would be good with sorghum syrup, too.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I'm gonna try that variation next.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Now that I have re upped my sorghum supply.

[Shannon Larson]

So you're making more pie?

[Megan Scott]

I'll be making more pie.

[Shannon Larson]

Cool.

[Megan Scott]

And bringing, I guess, bringing it to the podcast recording. Irma Rombauer believed that cooking should be joyful. And that philosophy changed the way America eats. Her great nephew Kerner carried that same joy and generosity to Napa Valley, founding Rombauer Vineyards in 1980. The winery was built on the same belief that made the cookbook a classic, that good food and wine should bring people together. And just as the joy of cooking has been in American kitchens for nearly a century, today Rombauer is one of California's most celebrated wineries.

[Claudia Lucero]

And.

[Megan Scott]

And the perfect pairing for every meal you cook from the book. Your next favorite pairing is [e-mail] joy use code joypod. That's j o y p o d. All caps for 15% off your order. That's R O M B a u e r.com joy and use code joypod at checkout.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Must be 21 to enjoy this week.

[Megan Scott]

We'd like to welcome Claudia Lucero to the table. Claudia Lucero is the founder of Urban Cheesecraft, a company she launched in 2009 to help educators, chefs, and home cooks make cheese at home. Her DIY cheese making kits have been featured in William Sonoma, Anthropology, Nordstrom and Whole Foods Market. And her books, including One Hour Cheese and Cooking with Way, have been highlighted by NPR's All Things Considered, Food Network and Good Morning America. Claudia leads hands on cheese making workshops and team building experiences. She also co organizes the Portland Fermentation Festival and serves on the board of the Oregon chapter of Les Dame Descoffier, championing mentorship and collaboration in the food world. Welcome to the show, Claudia.

[Claudia Lucero]

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

[Megan Scott]

It's so nice with you all finally have you here. I feel like we've been trying to get. I. I have been trying to get you on for a while.

[Claudia Lucero]

Perfect timing. It's great.

[Megan Scott]

What have you been cooking and eating this week that you're excited about?

[Claudia Lucero]

Kind of not glamorous, but a ton of cabbage. You guys, I'm just like cab cabbage crazy. I'm not the only one. Okay. Lots of knots. Okay.

[Jon Becker]

Cabbage is full of glamour.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Claudia Lucero]

Thank you. Yes.

[Shannon Larson]

Of the year or something. Is it okay, everybody?

[Claudia Lucero]

I did not know I was so cool.

[Jon Becker]

You are totally on trend, man.

[Claudia Lucero]

I just. Cabbage, cabbage, cabbage. It's like slaw. I'll have it in wedges, roasted. And sometimes I'll look at my plate and be like, there are three types of cabbage, like stir fry, a slaw type salad, and some sauerkraut. Yeah. And a lot of black lentils. You too, are we?

[Shannon Larson]

No, I haven't.

[Megan Scott]

No, I'm just nodding because I like black lentils. I haven't eaten them recently. What did you make with them recently?

[Claudia Lucero]

I sort of accidentally ended up making a type of falafel because I was just sort of like, oh, veggie burgers. And then in the end I was like, this is just a falafel kind of thing. So then I went full on with flatbread and all the pickles and yummy stuff. So lots of lentils and cabbage. So hopefully a lot of prebiotics. There's fiber.

[Jon Becker]

I love the genius who marketed black lentils. As beluga.

[Claudia Lucero]

I was wondering if you were gonna ask me if they are beluga kind. I was like, I don't know. They just say black lentil. So our belugas, not different ones. They're more expensive.

[Jon Becker]

I know that we've reached the extent of my knowledge. I'm not sure I. The ones that I've cooked that have been labeled beluga, they've been a little bit more toothsome.

[Megan Scott]

I wonder why they're called beluga, though.

[Claudia Lucero]

They are. It seems like they're really round maybe,

[Megan Scott]

but I don't know, they're kind of shiny.

[Claudia Lucero]

They seem different than the black ones I have, but who knows, you know?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Like they mimic their cows. We gotta figure it out, right?

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. Like.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I was thinking of the whale, which is.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Why would they cough?

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I think it's the caviar.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. This is a guess.

[Shannon Larson]

I don't know.

[Claudia Lucero]

I like all lentils, but the black ones, you know, they don't have as much of that, like, kind of shell on the outside. It's just like a regular green lentil. But all of them.

[Megan Scott]

All.

[Claudia Lucero]

All the legumes, man.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I love legumes. Oh, yeah, we've. We have a. As everyone probably knows by now, we have a bean subscription.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

So we're always trying to work our way through many, many pounds of beans.

[Jon Becker]

It might be. It might be time to take a break on the club. Maybe.

[Megan Scott]

But then if we get off break.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Get back on.

[Shannon Larson]

It's like a year's waiting list or something. Right.

[Megan Scott]

Or more.

[Jon Becker]

I'm okay with that. Wow. We can. We can just pick and choose from there.

[Claudia Lucero]

As a non member, I have to tell you, it's still very easy to get their beans.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's true.

[Claudia Lucero]

You just don't have to get it CSA style. And like so many, you know.

[Megan Scott]

Well, we'll talk about it. I don't know if I'm ready.

[Claudia Lucero]

This is a family discussion.

[Megan Scott]

I need tips on what all to do. I love lentils. I just kind of don't feel inspired when I'm cooking with them for some reason. So I usually just put them in a salad or.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, I guess like for me especially these black ones kind of replace black beans and so, you know, all sorts of Mexican applications. And in this particular instance, I put them in the instant pot and they just like, there's so many of them. And then I was like, okay, now I have to do other things. That's where the falafel thing came into play. And I love the Little patties. So good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Awesome.

[Jon Becker]

The one dish that I'm always tempted to make or occasionally crave is Kashari, but it's an Egyptian dish that has, like, a lot of different components. You have. You have rice, you have little macaroni, you have spicy red sauce. It's kind of on the thin side, and then you have some condiments. And then also the onions. Yeah. And like, crispy. Crispy fried onions on top. And so it's like a. It's a carb fest. And it's wonderful and delicious.

[Megan Scott]

Great. There's a lot of components, though, so you've gotta, like, boil the pasta, you gotta cook the lentils, you've got the tomato sauce. So it makes a lot of sense as, like, a food cart or, like, street cart. So street food situation. But not as much when you're just making it at home. But it's worth it.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, from a meal prep perspective, I guess you could just get all that going and then have some throughout the week.

[Megan Scott]

But, yeah, we're not really meal prep people. I don't like eating the same thing every day.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I'm so spoiled. I'm with you, Claudia. Do you have a signature dish? Like something that you are always bringing to the potluck or if someone asked you to cook something for them, something you really like, feel proud of?

[Claudia Lucero]

Proud of. Okay, let's see. Sarah knows this. Chilaquiles are my favorite, but they don't travel well, so that wouldn't be a potluck.

[Megan Scott]

But that can be your. That can be your signature dish, though.

[Claudia Lucero]

It's my signature dish. If you visit me, stay the night, we're gonna have chilaquiles, and it is definitely like my birthday breakfast.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, amazing.

[Claudia Lucero]

Nice. You're frying. It's kind of a thing. Even though they're easy to make, but it's not like an everyday, every weekend type of dish. And I just love them because, you know, leftover tortillas, whatever salsa you have, of course they include cheese. So, I mean, you can throw in an egg, you can put in chicken. They're just amazing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we like dishes where there are crispy bits and soggy bits, and I just feel like that balance is important.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, yeah. And the tortillas.

[Jon Becker]

The surgeon are going to get tired of hearing this. Like, yeah, they like it crispy and then soggy.

[Claudia Lucero]

I'm from San Diego, and my family still lives there, so we visit often. And so, you know, I hop around all the Mexican markets, and so I get to try a Lot of tortillas. And this last time I tried these thin ones from what is the Northgate is the name of the market. They did not work well for chilaquiles. They, like, just fell apart. So it's just like. Talk about lasagna mush. Like, no, that did not work. The crispiness that I worked so hard to fry, just completely gone. And so the tortilla really matters. And I think it does matter that they're stale, you know? And so interestingly, the Trader Joe's tortillas that I really just don't like for most things work well for chilaquitas, sort of pre stale.

[Megan Scott]

That's a good tip.

[Jon Becker]

Do you. Do you ever just use as a shortcut, like if you don't have any sale torches? Yeah. Oh.

[Claudia Lucero]

But you know what? I haven't tried, like, good, like, thick fried chips, like some of the ones we have in Portland and San Diego. So maybe that would be okay. But it's just such a pet peeve, and I put myself in the situation. If I go to a restaurant, I'll order chilaquiles and then they give you a pile of chips with some cheese and some enchilada sauce. And I'm just like, why do I keep trying. That is like a nacho, you know? Yeah. So. But, you know, I'd like to try yours, John, maybe.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, no.

[Claudia Lucero]

Portland.

[Jon Becker]

No. You would shame me. I swear.

[Megan Scott]

We use the juanitas or now it's not that anymore.

[Claudia Lucero]

Juan Antonio's.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. They really changed them.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Do you make chilajiles with those soggy. No. Or you work quickly.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, work quickly.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Quick and eat them fast.

[Jon Becker]

It is kind of a balancing act, though.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I feel like occasionally you'll make them and they're a little soggy, but. Yeah, usually you're pretty good about getting

[Jon Becker]

maybe one out of the course.

[Claudia Lucero]

You could even be careful and then like, leave some sort of on the edge and not let them really get soggy. But yeah, Juanitas, Juan Antonios.

[Megan Scott]

It's because I. I request chilaquiles way more often than it makes sense to fry anything. So we just do the shortcut one.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Becker]

My mother is in total agreement with you, though. Yeah, no, she. She was just like. She'll just recount like I ordered chilaquilles at some place and they. Yeah, that was soggy. I know she gets really angry, but

[Claudia Lucero]

it's because, like, you know, I've been lucky enough to travel in Mexico a few times, and everywhere you get them, they're Good.

[Megan Scott]

That's a dream.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. And then they're good green and they're red and they're roasted. And so I try that here just because it is my favorite dish. Yeah. And like too many times. So disappointed. I have that also with chile rellenos. Do you guys know those? And I think it's just like I'm always trying to recreate my grandma's dishes with those. Right. Her versions. And they're just never going to be the same.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah. Grandma's are going to be the best ones. Claudia, what's your relationship with the Joy of Cooking?

[Claudia Lucero]

Okay, so I took out my copy last night because, you guys, it's like a time capsule for me. And there are not many things that made it from California with me here because we just moved in one little sedan and like one of those pods that you ship ahead. You know, we didn't even have a mattress. But I brought the damn book. And I hadn't really realized that it was this time capsule. And so then of course, like the first thing that I really got into making. So it's kind of awesome you'll talk about this more, but was pie crust. I learned to make pie crust with it. There was like a college summer that for some reason, I don't know if it was stressful or just I got a ton of peaches, but it was just like peach pie summer. And so I opened it up to the pie crust page last night and of course there's like flour on there, but at the time I was vegetarian and I remember looking through and it's got like a serious game chapter, you know, so the like just having to turn away really quickly. Poor skinned down bunny. I'm not veget vegetarian anymore. So the interesting thing then when I started eating meat and here in Portland specifically getting it from farms and sometimes it being more in the whole state having to learn how to break down a rabbit and break down a chicken. I also did it with Joy of Cooking. So it's kind of this whole full circle, you know, being scared of the. The meat skills and then here being like, well, I know exactly what book teaches me that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

But 1975, I actually thought I had an 80s version.

[Megan Scott]

It might have been printed in the 80s, but it was the. There wasn't a new edition between 75 and 97.

[Claudia Lucero]

Okay. Yeah. So I must have gotten at a thrift store because I got it when I was so young. And you know, growing up, we had no cookbooks. Zero. You know, like my family cooked the family recipes. And then maybe like there was a chicken recipe on the back of a cornflakes box and my grandma would try that or whatever, you know, not many of those. And so I feel like it was like this thing that later when I was in my first adult home, I need my book and, you know, broke college, so I got a thrift store version. I now have the 2019 version.

[Megan Scott]

I love it when people get them at thrift stores, though. I think that's. I mean, that's such a nice way to. To find a book that you then grow.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. It's funny because as I was looking through it again, I found some pages dog eared. And I know that I didn't never cook those things. And so somebody before me, you know, made those. Yeah, I don't even remember what they were, but things I've never even heard of, so definitely wasn't me.

[Shannon Larson]

I search for them every time I go to an antique market. Yeah, I just, even if I don't purchase them, I'll always take a picture and send it to you too.

[Claudia Lucero]

Like, look, I found this. Look, I found this.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, people buy them for us when they find them. Like we've had many people either get them at estate sales or like my grandmother will find them at. I think she's getting them at like Goodwill or something. But she's actually formed a whole collection of vintage Joy of Cookings just from going to Goodwill and finding them there. So. Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, I love it.

[Jon Becker]

That actually brings me to a question I had. You got into cheese making.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

How did that come about? Did you. Did you start following recipes or.

[Claudia Lucero]

So moving to Portland, I had very much in mind. You know, I lived in San Diego. I finally hit the age of like, I'd like to buy a home and have a garden, grow some food. And this was 2006, so you all know what was going on with housing. And so it was especially horrific there. And so my partner and I were like, we're never going to be able to buy a home here. We actually got approved. And then what we were going to get for it was just like a complete tear down. So we were like, off we go. You know, Shockingly, I didn't think we'd be the type of people to move out of state, but we did. And I just had this whole idea in mind of I was going to grow my own food and I was going to buy from farms and go to farmers markets. I just like had this life that I wanted and then getting here and, you know, it being so Rainy and knowing not a soul. We didn't know any people here. Not having a job yet. I just started like again, making pies, making bread. I moved on to butter, moved on to yogurt, and just kind of kept going that way. And then cheese and cheese was really like a mind blowing type of moment. It went beyond cooking for me because it was like this. The awe of science, you know what I mean? Or even like recipes, you know, where you put it in the oven, then it flips in the oven, you bring it out like choco flan or something like that, you know, or there's like impossible pie, things like that. Yeah, I love those.

[Megan Scott]

Magic feeling. I always feel that way when I make ganache because it's like, oh, it looks terrible, it looks terrible, it looks terrible. And they're like, oh, my God.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, mayonnaise. Just stuff like that, you know, that it's just like, I can't believe this. And it just feels so empowering. So that's how it came about. And I don't know if I'm just kind of, you know, I wanted to be a teacher. I kind of went to school thinking that's what I would do. And so naturally my mind goes to like, why aren't we doing this? Why isn't everyone making cheese? How did we forget this? Everyone was. No. Do they know they can make mozzarella in one hour? You know, so it just kind of kept growing from there.

[Shannon Larson]

Was there a specific cheese that really, like, paved the way for you?

[Claudia Lucero]

Paneer. Interestingly. Super simple. But I'd worked at an Indian restaurant in high school even, and so I would see them make it, huge trays of it in the kitchen, and I would eat it. But I never really, like asked, how do you make this? It was just really amazing that they did. And I thought it was like, way beyond, you know, anything I could do. So then to come upon it later and make it. It was definitely my gateway cheese. I was just like, and now you can find. Fry it and now you can put it in a curry. Like, what? This is what I mean, it was just like one of those, like, you know, connection moments where you think back to, like, that's what they were doing and they were doing this in such large amounts, you know, but it's not hard. And then to sort of tiptoe, you know, into kind of. They were like homesteading. I think it was like Mother Earth News kind of homesteading forums. I mean, this is like 2007, so just really stripped down type of websites and they're starting with like 5 gallons to 25 gallons of milk, these recipes. And so having to adapt. But did you know that in that 1975 copy of Joy of Cooking there are one gallon cheese making recipes? Yeah. And so I learned a lot from resources from the 70s and early 80s. And I think that was just sort of the, you know, back to the land, 1970s kind of thing that, you know, than I got into. Yeah. I kind of went off on a bunch of tangents, but where were we?

[Shannon Larson]

I do just say I paneer was the first cheese I ever made. And it's. I recommend people, if you're making a recipe with paneer, it can be really expensive to get it at a store. And it's so easy to make and it feels so.

[Claudia Lucero]

Like it's not even that good. Yeah. You know, it's super rubbery. I don't know if it's just like so. So low fat and stuff. So pressed. Because it's mechanically done. It's really hard to have it soak up the curry juices or whatever you're putting it in or frying.

[Shannon Larson]

It makes such a huge difference.

[Claudia Lucero]

And I mean, that's kind of one of the beauties of paneer is that it's supposed to soak up flavor. It's so mild by itself, but, you know, you put it in something and suddenly it's amazing and tender. And I just recently made curry for a large group in San Diego. And then there was this awesome Indian market there and just like walls of freezers of, you know, flatbreads and cheeses and just, you know, you know how we just will get like one cube option at a normal average store, but in an Indian market it was like, you know, so many brands and so many sizes and weights and so I got really excited and got a ginormous block. I think it was like three pounds. But I'm so sad to say it was awful. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

And I was looking for vegetarians. And anyway, it took really long to take on the flavor and I thought I would have rather had less cheese because that was why I bought it is because if I make it from my typical one gallon batch, it wasn't really enough to serve that many people. But I wish I'd made it and then it would have been delicious, you know, and easy, inexpensive. I mean all of it and a fun experience for everybody. But I went for it and I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot how horrible it is. Sorry, everybody. Maybe some brands are better and I just luck, you know, did not have good luck and got just, like, a really squeaky, flavorless one.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I mean, milk quality matters, too, Especially with a cheese like that. That's so simple. And you really want the milk to taste good.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, that's one of the things I tell people a lot, because a lot of the cheeses I help people make are fresh cheeses that you're going to eat pretty soon. And so I'm always like, just start with whole milk, you know, with a full fat. Like, why are we messing around? Like, your yield is going to be better. You know, it's going to taste so much better. It's cheese. It's fine.

[Megan Scott]

It's cheese.

[Claudia Lucero]

It's cheese.

[Jon Becker]

I still remember when we had access to Jersey milk.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, man. We lived in Tennessee. We got Jersey milk from a farmer, and it would be, like, probably six inches of cream on top. It was crazy. I would make butter from the. I would take the cream off, make butter, and then use the rest of it to make cheese. And the chi. Or yogurt and the. I mean, even when I would make yogurt with the leftover, the skimmed milk, there would still be, like, a layer of cream on top because it was so rich. It was amazing. But, yeah, we haven't done that since. We.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, that was the golden age of our cheese making.

[Claudia Lucero]

Oh, you got into making cheese?

[Megan Scott]

Well, I used to work on goat farms, so I made so much cheese, and then I wanted to make it at home, and I, you know, did for a while. But then cheese making is so much harder at home. I'm. I'm not at home. You're the pro at cheese making at home, but, like, when you have a whole cheese kitchen that's set up just to make cheese, you're making a huge quantity, but, like, everything is just set up to make cheese, so it feels easier in some way. And it was also my job, so, like, you know, versus doing it at home.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, totally.

[Megan Scott]

But, like, why. Why should home cooks make. Cheat. Try making cheese at home?

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, I mean, I think especially if you're a curious cook and you like this sort of magic, you know, type of result, that's a huge reason.

[Megan Scott]

And.

[Claudia Lucero]

But I think there's a big misconception about it being expensive, you know, and so I think it depends. And also there's, you know, these myths about that you have to have raw milk and, you know, but that's dangerous, or, like you said, it's really difficult or, you know, seems like a big ordeal. So when I was learning and once I Started teaching people. Sort of led by teaching people and knowing that I wanted to have a finished product in front of them, I started focusing on these cheeses that could be done in an hour. And then I just ended up being like the first step type of teacher, you know, when it comes to cheese making. And kind of like it blew my mind. Like, seriously, just milk and an acid heat, you know, and like all you do is now add rennet and all you do now is add a little buttermilk and it becomes a different cheese. And doing it in the one gallon batch, knowing how to buy grocery store milk, that will work, and getting a good yield out of it, I think makes a really big difference. So I think, especially if you're vegetarian, it's an amazing skill to have because you can make so much with just paneer alone. But halloumi is actually super easy to make as well.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we need to try making that because it's so expensive.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it is really expensive. What's, what's the yields like, do you think, on, you know, from like a gallon of milk? How much?

[Claudia Lucero]

Like a pound and a half.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, wow.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, it's pretty good yield. Yeah. And with ricotta, it might even be like £2 because it's so much moisture still in there, you know. So I think the fresh cheeses are absolutely worth it to make at home. I think once you start getting into aging cheese, then, yeah, if you have a milk connection, it's way better. You know, of course, like those people, they're trying to use milk, they're trying to preserve it. It's just coming every single day. They have to find something to do with it. Right. But those of us who are having to pay what. I don't know what that costs now. Like $18 a gallon, maybe more. I don't know. You know, you need a couple gallons for an age ch season. So, you know, when you're a beginner, that's not the best place to start. So that was. That's sort of my approach. It's like, we don't have to, like, it's not black and. Or white. You know, if just because you love aged cheddar doesn't mean that that's the one you start with. Like, learn first how to make a simple halloumi or paneer.

[Shannon Larson]

Mozzarella is what you want.

[Claudia Lucero]

Mozzarella. So fun. People love mozzarella.

[Megan Scott]

Is mozzarella or what? What cheese would you recommend making first for somebody who's never done it?

[Claudia Lucero]

Ricotta, paneer. And then I would actually Jump to halloumi before mozzarella. Because mozzarella is part of this pasta filata family of cheeses where you stretch the curd and it has to be just the right acidity and temperature for the stretching. And I think sometimes that's where people go wrong and well, actually that's where people have fun. And so then they overstretch it, so it dries out. So then you end up with like,

[Jon Becker]

if you're having fun, you're doing something wrong.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, it doesn't seem right.

[Megan Scott]

Cheese play doh. At that point.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. So in my class and classes, I'll say, like, for fun, let's just do it, you know, with the first couple of balls. But, you know, then we're gonna touch it as little as possible, heat it as little as possible, then you're gonna get the most tender mozzarella. So. But yeah, it's by far the most requested cheese making class. And you know, my most popular kit and all of that since I've started it has not died down in 17 years. It's crazy. I'm like, yeah, I know mozzarella. Let me guess what class you want me to teach. I really try to push burrata because it's not harder at all. Well, I shouldn't say that. It's a little bit more practice because you're having to make the thin outer shell and seal the juicy filling inside. But it's the same. You're only making the one cheese plus a filling, you know, so. But it's so luxurious.

[Megan Scott]

Burrata better. I mean, mozzarella has its uses, but if I'm just going to eat it, I want it to be burrata.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you know the funny history about burrata?

[Megan Scott]

No.

[Claudia Lucero]

I love to tell people this is that in Puglia, where burrata was born, the legend goes, but it's not that long ago, so I think it may be true. Is that because Italians just like, say, you know, the mozzarella has to be the day of. Right. And so anything older than a day is old. So we need to do something with this. If it didn't sell. So they tore up the day old mozzarella, soaked it in heavy cream, added a little.

[Megan Scott]

They.

[Claudia Lucero]

They filled fresh little bundles of mozzarella with it and then they were like, burra that. And then they sold it for more for like the people with money. Nice. So it's like zero waste, but you know, a little, A little premium

[Jon Becker]

luxury from frugality.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I love that.

[Jon Becker]

Beautiful.

[Megan Scott]

The redemption arc. So, Ronbauer Vineyards is sponsoring today's episode and honestly, I've been wanting to talk about them because they just released vintage of their Sauvignon Blanc and it's quickly become my go to white wine as we head into the warmer months. It's refreshing and vibrant, exactly what you want when the sun is out. I've been having it with asparagus with orange and hazelnuts and I mean, it just works perfectly.

[Jon Becker]

And okay. If you're planning on firing up the grill soon, let me tell you about their Zinfandels. They just released their 2023 vintage and it's bold, juicy, and has real depth. The kind of wine that just belongs with good food and good company. Something like grilled marinated octopus with shaved fennel and white bean salad comes to mind. But it's so versatile.

[Megan Scott]

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[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Megan Scott]

You also have a book about cooking with whey. So. So what are some ways that you can use whey? Good one.

[Claudia Lucero]

The ones I really like to get people started with because if you make any of these cheeses that we're talking about, you're gonna get almost like three quarters of the gallon left, as, you know, in a whey. And it tastes like really low fat milk. There's still some minerals in there. In fact, it gets dehydrated and sold back to us as, you know, whey protein powder. So. But here you have it at home and it's. So why not do something with it? Especially if you paid a lot for your milk, right? Like, why not use it? So use it as like you would a really low fat milk for making smoothies or cooking oatmeal. But for larger amounts, I think soups, especially if they can benefit from a creamy flavor. So one of the ones in my book is I think it's like a roasted butter. No delicata squash and corn chowder. Amazing because that extra sweetness, because all the lactose essentially ends up in whey. Right? So there's a lot of sweetness and then there's a creaminess and it has body. This, this liquid, it's not just water. It does have some body. So I use that to a bunch of different effects in the book and from desserts to savory things.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, there's A lot of cocktails in there, which I love. Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. I got really nerdy and into. You know how I forget now what it's called. But when they clarify cocktails with milk.

[Megan Scott]

Do you know what, like a milk punch or. Yeah, it's just Claire. It's called clarification.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. I'm not a big drinker, but like I said, I like magic food and kind of effects. And so I thought that was super cool. And then there's a vodka maker or two in the world now, I think. Yeah, who? And one from Oregon State University, I think. Or at least they did it as a student project. I can't remember. But anyway, you can distill whey and turn it into vodka. And it doesn't taste at all like milk. No kind of flavor anything. It's just vodka.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you can turn anything into alcohol.

[Claudia Lucero]

We try hard enough. So that was one of the fun things I. I enjoyed with the book, was researching around the world what people have done with whey, because it ends up being kind of a waste, like, problem. It's so much. And because it still has enough nutrients in it, you can't just dump it, you know, in waterways. It grows algae and kills the wildlife and all that. And so, yeah, people are distilling it and trying to turn it into different things. Fertilizer and, you know, drying it into powder.

[Megan Scott]

We used it to feed pigs on the farm. And then they would have pork, all the pork you could ever want.

[Claudia Lucero]

Right, right. Yeah. If you have a farm, that's a great use for it.

[Jon Becker]

I saw that you had a recipe for the Norwegian brown cheese.

[Megan Scott]

Yes.

[Jon Becker]

I love that stuff so much.

[Claudia Lucero]

You love it? Okay. I thought you were that face. I didn't know if you.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, no.

[Claudia Lucero]

I mean, so disgusting.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, maybe some people are disappointed because it's delicious caramelly stuff and not the cheese that they're hoping for. I don't know why people would be

[Claudia Lucero]

kind of ridiculous, talk about, like things that aren't really worth it to make that one is kind of ridiculous to make it home. But I had to for the book. And it's. It's so good.

[Megan Scott]

And it's. How much way do you need to make so much?

[Claudia Lucero]

So much. And, you know, it just keeps getting thicker and fudgier and until it's basically like cajeta type of, you know, texture and it's easy to kind of take it too far. Kind of like when you're making maple syrup candy, it then gets granular, so you have to catch it.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Claudia Lucero]

At that, like caramel, you know, where you, you do a little cheese slice kind of thing. And it's still soft, but even crumbly it's good. But just the nutty, toasty flavor.

[Megan Scott]

Oh yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

So good.

[Megan Scott]

We love it. What do you do with it? Do you just eat it?

[Claudia Lucero]

I just eat it, yeah. Do you do something with it?

[Megan Scott]

I mean, I've like put it on toast and warmed it up. Yeah. With apples.

[Jon Becker]

I thought it was really good with like a tart apple.

[Claudia Lucero]

It really reminds me of like a Mexican. I think it's just milk fudge.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I've made milk fudge before. Yeah. Not quite as sweet.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Some help from the sugar. Doesn't take quite as long.

[Claudia Lucero]

As I saw it looking like that and tasting like that. Then I added some extra maple syrup just to see and then some pecans and it. I was like two things because you know you're simmering away for hours and checking and checking and checking. It's fun.

[Megan Scott]

You are also a co organizer of the Portland Fermentation Festival or Stinkfest. Can you share a little bit about that event?

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I don't even know how long I've been involved. I just first started going as a cheese maker and leading workshops, just demonstrating cheesemaking at my table. And then the opportunity came to be one of the organizers with Liz Crane and Heidi Nestler, who you mentioned earlier with Juan Paku NATO. And they're just such a dream to work with. I mean, it's just such a simple, joyful event for us. We have like a simple template. People just come out. It's magic, you know, but basically it's called Stinkfest because the entire place just smells like kimchi. You know, just like somebody opened a fresh jar of sauerkraut or kimchi that

[Megan Scott]

makes me hungry to think about.

[Claudia Lucero]

And we don't sell anything. Like I said, once you pay your ticket for a tasting, you sample, I don't know, it's like 25 to 30 booths, little bites of whatever and it could be miso tempeh chips. Yeah. Different vegan cheeses, sake, all kinds of yummy stuff.

[Megan Scott]

Isn't there a ferment like petting zoo?

[Claudia Lucero]

My brainchild.

[Megan Scott]

What, what is. Can you talk about that?

[Claudia Lucero]

Yes, that's a bacterial petting zoo. Uh huh. So again, I'm a teacher. I just want people to like touch and smell and you know, go ew. So I bring the starters for anything from kefir milk, kefir water, kefir. I bring kombucha scobees. I bring, like, little slabs of tempeh with a mold, you know, natto, of course, that's always a big. You know. Some people call it snato.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, no. How rude.

[Claudia Lucero]

I know. So rude. But just to give the listeners if. Who may not be familiar with how it looks. But it's so good.

[Megan Scott]

It is.

[Claudia Lucero]

I did not think I would love it. And it's all the things that I love, like chocolate and caramel and toasted nuts and coffee. It's just like, all those things.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. It does have, like, a really rich flavor. And it's surprisingly. I think it's surprisingly mild.

[Claudia Lucero]

I agree. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And with a little sesame oil.

[Jon Becker]

Isn't it also. Am I making this up, or is it also kind of unique because it's, like, one of the few ferments that is actually alkaline or.

[Claudia Lucero]

I think you're right. Yeah. I've heard Heidi talk about it enough. I should know that. Pretty sure. Yeah. I think you're right. Which. I don't know what that means, John. Like, for us, but, I mean, I

[Jon Becker]

think it's a good thing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

It's just unusual in terms of fermented food.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, yeah. Because it's not lactic acid bacteria.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I see what you mean. Yep.

[Shannon Larson]

I love the idea of a petting zoo for all these.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

It's just so fun. Especially, like, if I could just play with kombucha scobees.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Kind of fun.

[Claudia Lucero]

And it's like, you know, there isn't a chance really anywhere to do that. So once I saw people were really into it, I tried it one year, and then, you know, people just line up and adults, kids, everybody. And I'm like, touch it. And I bring a flashlight so they can, like, look at things in jars. And it looks like very science lab, you know. So it just grows and grows. Every year, I try to get more. More starters from people. I love the water kefir crystals. People really enjoy those. They're just like, crystals. They're beautiful.

[Megan Scott]

They're pretty. What ferments do you have going right now in your kitchen?

[Claudia Lucero]

Oh, man, they are all nearly probably moldy because I really, you know, I don't know. I'm in a different stage of life right now, I think, where I'm just not tending to things. But I have vinegar mother. I have all the kefirs. You know, sometimes things make it. You bring them back and you revive them, feed them with fresh milk a couple times, and Then they're eventually good enough to have again. But I really should be tending these like as a bacterial farmer every year because I, you know, provide all these things for the petting zoo. Yeah. But as far as actively. Yeah, I'm not fermenting anything right now. Yo. Yogurt. Yogurt is a thing I do pretty regularly and I just do it in my instant pot. But yeah, nothing else. I, I, you know why? Because sometimes things go moldy and I'm very sensitive to mold. And so I got kind of sick earlier in this year. Was it? Yeah. And then I was like being a parent to myself. Like you, if you are not responsible enough to take care of your things in jars, you cannot keep them.

[Shannon Larson]

All of your little pets.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, you cannot keep things in jars anymore because, you guys, I was finding like 20, 21 pears and booze and like. Yeah, they might have been good then, you know, but you do a lot of anymore.

[Megan Scott]

We do that. We, you know, we'll start this product. I think we still have cherry bounce from like 10 years ago. It's not well, but it's, you know, it's just cherries.

[Jon Becker]

That's going to be just fine.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's fine. It's also just like we still, I

[Jon Becker]

can't believe we so much, so much much sugar, so much alcohol.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, some things are fine, but yeah, others when they. This was like a half gallon jar of kombucha and all of it dehydrated down to the scoby and then it was just like sporulating into the air, however you say it. And I was breathing it and I was like, there's mold in our walls. And I was like tearing everything up until I found that jar. And that's when I was very angry with myself.

[Jon Becker]

Do you typically just keep all your ferments in a, in a room?

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah, they are just in one room. And it happens to my desk where I sit and work is right in front of this whole area supposedly. I thought that's how I'd keep a close eye on them. But it was like three or four jars deep and I didn't, I just did not find that one. And you know, because kombucha, you don't seal it 100% so it was able to breathe out into there. I mean it was, it made me really sick. I thought I had Covid like three different times and it was cold.

[Megan Scott]

Oh no. Dangers tend your ferment, I guess. Don't make sure you walk your kombucha starter responsible.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. This was a lot of years of it just dehydrating. It's unusual, I think.

[Megan Scott]

So every week we answer a caller question and this week we're talking about hard to find editions of Joy of Cooking. Sarah, can you read the question?

[Claudia Lucero]

Had to go joy hunting. And I'm so excited to have found a 1951 edition.

[Megan Scott]

Are there editions that are hard to find or extra rare so I can

[Claudia Lucero]

keep it an eye out?

[Megan Scott]

Would you like to start?

[Jon Becker]

I think that the obvious first answer is like the 1931 edition. The original, not the. There was a facsimile edition that was printed in 1998. But yeah, the original first edition, there was only like 3,000 copies of that. So, yeah, those are pretty pricey and hard to find, especially with the dust jacket. If you find one with a dust jacket that.

[Megan Scott]

It's like finding the treasure chest at the end of the rainbow kind of deal. Yeah, well, I mean, jackets just don't survive. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

I saw one with a dust jacket on. On ABE Books today.

[Megan Scott]

Wow.

[Jon Becker]

And it was actually like cheaper than some of the other ones, which was odd.

[Megan Scott]

Surprising.

[Jon Becker]

It seems like it was a little. Maybe a little underpriced.

[Megan Scott]

But what was it being sold for?

[Jon Becker]

I think it was like 6,700, 7,000, something like that. But yeah, I feel like it's. It's like a minimum of 5,000 maybe for a copy without a dust jacket. That's like, you know, that's a lot of money. Decent.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. For a book. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

No, it's. It's. I would not. Well, I have paid that, but I will not.

[Shannon Larson]

It's so hard. Every time I go anywhere now.

[Megan Scott]

You gotta find somebody who doesn't know what they have. Exactly.

[Claudia Lucero]

Exactly.

[Jon Becker]

But yeah, I don't know. I think I feel like the rarest though, if you take into account the fact that the 1931 was reprinted in the 90s is definitely the 1936 edition. And that was also like the first that has our kind of. Our unique method of writing recipes, the action method. That was the first edition that Irma started using that recipe writing format. So. So, yeah, those are. Those can get up there too.

[Megan Scott]

The older you get, the more rare they are because people just used them to death. You know, people would use them until they fell apart and then they would get thrown away when somebody died and their kids just were like, we're just going to toss this old book. And so, yeah, you got to find the older editions.

[Shannon Larson]

31 and 36.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And then 43. I mean, those are pretty common. They're reasonably common. But I really like. I mean, I like the 43 edition because it's the wartime rationing edition where it has, like, you know, here are all the recipes where you can substitute meat with soya bean, soya, soya beans,

[Jon Becker]

loaf,

[Megan Scott]

or like, here are recipes that don't use. Use sugar. They use some other sweetener because sugar was being rationed. So it's just like a. More. It's interesting historically to have that one maybe not so valuable unless it's like, mint condition with the dust jacket. But then there are some, like, oddball ones.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, they're like, incredibly rare, but also worth nothing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, right.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. So, like, there's a. There was a counterfeit edition that was printed in Taiwan, like sometime in the set 70s. It's a counterfeit 1963 edition. So it's the one with the blue cover, blue hardback, I should say. And then, yeah, the 1997 CD ROM. Incredible. Incredibly rare. Probably not usable in any way.

[Megan Scott]

Amazing. We do have a CD rom.

[Claudia Lucero]

You guys do have that?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, we do. We kept one around.

[Megan Scott]

There's also. I mean, it's not. It's not super rare. But there's the deluxe edition that came with the box.

[Claudia Lucero]

Box.

[Megan Scott]

It, like, was sold in a box presentation edition. So you would give it as like a wedding gift. And it had its own box and it had a special inscription page where you could write, you know, to whoever from so and so. That one's kind of cool. It doesn't have a ribbon, though, which is kind of a mark against it. But then there's editions that were owned by notable people. So recently there was a edition that went up for sale that was owned by Sylvia Plath. Oh, wow. And she had written. Written little notes in the margins. So that was really cool to see. I wanted that one so bad.

[Jon Becker]

I think it was like, breaded veal cutlet recipe. And it's like, Ted likes this or something, you know, just like little marginalia.

[Megan Scott]

Do you remember what that one went for?

[Jon Becker]

I did look it up. It was. It went for 5,800. And then I also, like, one went up for auction in, like, 1999. That was the same edition in 1951. That was Marilyn Monroe's, like, with her Fannie Farmer. The two of them together went for $29,900. And that was in, you know, 1999 money, which is like.

[Megan Scott]

That's a record.

[Jon Becker]

I think it's like 58,000 in today money. But yeah, Marilyn Monroe got The star power.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah, but those are the most valuable ones. I mean, honestly, the later ones, like mid century and beyond, there are just so many copies printed that they're not. They're not rare and unless they were owned by somebody famous.

[Jon Becker]

So the other incredibly rare but also not worth much is the combound and the paperback editions, because those are just falling apart.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah. So which I actually found out that the combound one was not authorized to be printed. Have we talked about this already?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, we talked about it this week. I feel like you found some correspondences in the files.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I was going through all these old files because we have all these files that we haven't organized. And they're just sitting in boxes in our garage, which feels not great because if something flooded, they would all be gone. A lot of it's not interesting. It's a lot of printed out or like, you know, old emails that we don't need. But I did find some correspondence about a legal dispute regarding the comb bound 1975 edition. Because I guess whoever printed that, they had a license to print Joy in a soft cover like a. A paperback, but they didn't where they weren't authorized to print it in a comb, but they did. So I didn't find the outcome of what happened in that case. But that was kind of an interesting thing to find in those boxes unauthorized.

[Shannon Larson]

I think what's valuable about them really is like what we've talked about is when you find somebody's previous version at like an antique store or Goodwill and they have personal notes in there. I just think that, like, even if it's not valuable monetarily, I just love them so much.

[Megan Scott]

I know.

[Shannon Larson]

So special.

[Jon Becker]

We've held onto this paperback edition that somebody put it into a Ziploc and sent it to us. Cause it was completely falling apart and was just like. There was just the sweetest note. I mean, if I remember, I will try to like post that when we post the episode.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we should post that. It was really sweet because the woman who sent it to us, she got in touch via the old website that we had. And she said something about, you know, she was going into assisted living and probably wouldn't be cooking much anymore, but she. She was worried her kids wouldn't understand the significance of the book. And so she wanted us to have it and she sent it with this just.

[Jon Becker]

It was just like this awesome note. Yeah, it was like an abbreviated history of her life. And like this book has been. Was saved from a house fire. This book helped me Nourish four children. It's been through floods. You know, I can't remember all the blow by blows, but it was really sweet.

[Megan Scott]

So meaningful to receive that. Yeah. So yeah, we have several copies that are just people's personal copies that they wanted us to have or we found. Like I had one person give me a copy that had a, it had been set down on a stove burner so you had the imprint of the stove eye on it, which is just so fun. I was like, maybe I should get a tattoo of that.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, definitely an argument in favor of those old timey coil coil elements.

[Megan Scott]

That's a lot of character.

[Jon Becker]

You can't get that with induction.

[Megan Scott]

Boring. Do that to mind.

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[Claudia Lucero]

Off.

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And now back to the show.

[Megan Scott]

So this week's Joy Scouts recipe has nothing to do with old Joy of Cookings, but we wanted to assign paneer on page 245 since that was Claudia's gateway cheese and it is truly so easy to make and so rewarding and you can use it right away by making Pallock paneer. You can also I love paneer because it doesn't melt. So you can sear it and get it nice and brown and toasty and then serve it with like a sauce

[Claudia Lucero]

or I mean, it's just cheese croutons and stuff. Lettuce wraps. Like, I mean, just.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. What other. What other ideas? What other ways?

[Claudia Lucero]

That's my favorite. And I think I put that in my one hour cheese book because I did like a five minute recipe after the one hour cheese. So just like, let's get through this. You know, the eating part. So yeah, you sear the paneer, but sprinkled with like curry spices, some ghee in the pan and some garlic. You can even powder just get that all like crispy and then just like some crunchy, even like iceberg lettuce. Just like, you know, the crispiest, like juiciest lettuce that maybe a little kimchi in there. Yum yum. Mix all kinds of things.

[Megan Scott]

Awesome.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm excited.

[Megan Scott]

So if you make paneer that again, that's on page 245, right? It's embedded in the palak paneer recipe. Let us know what you think. Tag us on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. If you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you, Sarah. Can you please read the next caller question?

[Claudia Lucero]

Hi, this is pat from Dewberry, Massachusetts. The recipes I bought Joy for over 40 years ago were strawberry fruit punch and marshmallows. I gifted my copy to newlyweds. Are those recipes in the new edition session?

[Megan Scott]

I love your podcast.

[Claudia Lucero]

Thanks.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for listening, Pat. Yeah, we're happy to get into that next week. I think there have been some changes, but maybe not so many changes. We still have some things. We'll have to do some research and make sure. All right, what is everyone cooking this week?

[Shannon Larson]

My husband's going to New York, so I'm on my own next week.

[Megan Scott]

What are you gonna make? I don't know.

[Shannon Larson]

That's what's so exciting is like, he's definitely more of like, okay, it's dinner time. I need a full dinner. And I'm like, I hate to use it. It's overused, like girl dinner type thing. But I love just putting a random plate together and not thinking about it. I always order sushi one night when I'm alone and just like, sushi by myself and watch like, When Harry Met Sally. So I'm just excited to not have. I love my husband, but to not have that pressure of being like, what are we doing for dinner tonight? What are we doing for dinner? I just. I can eat pickles. It's fine.

[Claudia Lucero]

I'll be fine.

[Shannon Larson]

So I'm excited to not meal plan and to just do whatever I want and this sounds so selfish. Not think about anybody else.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, no, I mean, that's kind of a treat when you don't get to do it very often. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

And I'm usually the one that travels. He is rarely the one that leaves the house. So it's like, it's a treat for myself to be able to just not worry about it.

[Claudia Lucero]

It.

[Shannon Larson]

I love you, John. But yeah, I'm excited and I'll miss him.

[Megan Scott]

What about you, Claudia? Any thoughts?

[Claudia Lucero]

I've been craving fish tacos. Oh, yum. Yeah, I bought some tilapia, so maybe just some lightly breaded tilapia with some cabbage sauce.

[Megan Scott]

Of course.

[Claudia Lucero]

Some simple salsa. Of course. It's probably the cabbage that's really calling to me in the whole situation.

[Jon Becker]

Love fish tacos. We should do that.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yes.

[Megan Scott]

We haven't done that in a long time.

[Claudia Lucero]

I bet it's just like the one sunny day that we've had that made me go fish tacos.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Claudia Lucero]

I'm in Baja suddenly.

[Megan Scott]

Well, we're having friends over this week and I think we're gonna make. We haven't really talked about this, but I'm proposing that we make pizza in our pizza oven because we don't use it enough.

[Jon Becker]

Fine.

[Shannon Larson]

I love it when you guys make pizza in that oven. It's.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's so good and it's so fast. It's like three minutes.

[Jon Becker]

We need. We need more practice. We slash. I. I need more practice with the pizza oven.

[Megan Scott]

The good news is that it always is delicious. It doesn't matter if it's not perfect, it's still pizza. And so I'm kind of plotting out what pies like. I. I always want to make too many pies cuz I just have too many combinations of things that I want to make.

[Jon Becker]

We need to do one that's kind of like a riff on that quote unquote Turkish pasta that we did.

[Megan Scott]

The Monty flavored.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, the Monty inspired pasta.

[Shannon Larson]

What is that?

[Claudia Lucero]

What are the flavors?

[Jon Becker]

Well, it's so. It's like there's a really garlicky and, you know, lightly salted yogurt, like a drained yogurt, Greek yogurt. And then it's a butter that's been infused with chilies, chili flakes, and also tomato paste. And then there's like ground lamb or ground beef and onion component as well.

[Megan Scott]

We could do that. That.

[Shannon Larson]

That sounds really good.

[Claudia Lucero]

So you make the pizza for people. It's not like a do your own toppings bar situation, you know? Yeah, you ate a bad pizza.

[Jon Becker]

You know, at other people's houses. We've been guests at pizza parties where this has worked out perfectly. Like, they. They'll have, like, two. Two tables going, and they'll have all the ingredients. They'll tell people, like, hey, bring. Bring some ingredients. But then, like, for some reason, like, we've tried it in the past and at our place, and I don't know, I think our backyard's cursed.

[Megan Scott]

It gets a little chaotic. It's not cursed. It's the reason you think it works out at other people's houses, because you don't have to manage the whole production. When we're managing it, it's like, oh, this is so much work. And then you end up with so many toppings, and most. I mean, we save them. But that's so much. Because you need almost no toppings for a pizza.

[Claudia Lucero]

That's true.

[Megan Scott]

So, yeah. And then we're also launching the pizzas into the oven, so you have to stand there the whole time while everybody. Everyone's eating and, like, be responsible. So that's why. But I. This time, we're just gonna decide what we're gonna do and have it. Let that be that. But I'm making that potato and parsley pesto pizza again.

[Claudia Lucero]

Parsley pesto?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. It's a lovely 5050 creation that we always get when they have it. So I'm gonna just make it at home.

[Claudia Lucero]

I love pesto. Made of all the things. So I don't know if I've done parsley. Yum.

[Megan Scott]

It stays green forever.

[Claudia Lucero]

Yeah. And I mean, it's perfect for when you don't have basil. Like. Yeah, that's harder. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Before we wrap, Claudia, where can listeners follow you?

[Claudia Lucero]

Instagram. Just urban cheesecraft on Instagram. I'm not super active, but I will get DMs and comments and stuff if people go on there.

[Megan Scott]

And you made a little cheese making class for listeners, right?

[Claudia Lucero]

Yes. So to make stracciatella, we were talking about the filling for burrata, which is like, pretty much why you want burrata. And it's just crazy that, you know, you can whip it up yourself in five minutes. So, yeah, a little class for everybody.

[Megan Scott]

Awesome. We'll put that in the show notes so everyone can find it.

[Shannon Larson]

That's so exciting.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast before we go. Show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about old Joy of Cooking recipes. And don't forget to make this week's recipe paneer on page pollock Panera for 245. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we couldn't do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation Production House. Thank you to Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer.

[Claudia Lucero]

If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices

[Megan Scott]

of women, small business owners, writers, artists

[Claudia Lucero]

and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the

[Megan Scott]

future of independent media.

[Claudia Lucero]

Please visit patreon.com backslash the joy of Creation Production House to join our community today.

[Megan Scott]

Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.