Jon Washington: A Casual Culinary Chat About Pizza

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Jon Washington: A Casual Culinary Chat About Pizza
Release Date: June 6, 2025
Host/Author: The Joy of Creation Production House
Guests: John Washington

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with Shannon Larson welcoming listeners to The Joy of Cooking Podcast. Shannon introduces herself as a home cook and ardent fan of the Joy of Cooking, particularly enjoying Sriracha on pizza. Megan Scott identifies herself as the co-author of the 2019 edition of the cookbook and humorously mentions her nights spent avoiding dish duty to care for her cats. Jon Becker, the fourth-generation co-author, shares his passion for recipe testing, emphasizing his preference for note-taking over making spontaneous cooking decisions (00:39).

Weekly Cooking Updates

The hosts delve into what they've been cooking lately:

• Shannon mentions embracing summer by grilling burgers with classic toppings like shredded lettuce and indulging in abundant garden salads, humorously noting they planted "too much" lettuce (01:25).
• Megan discusses preparations for a recent party, highlighting her favorite summer potluck dish, dill pickle dip, and a delectable chocolate buttermilk cake with raspberry buttercream. She provides a link to her recipe on The Spruce Eats and shares insights into her baking process (02:37).
• Jon adds to the conversation by mentioning favorite recipes like the dubu jo rim (spicy braised tofu) from cookbook Uma, praising its versatility as both a banchan and a main protein dish (02:19).

Guest Introduction: John Washington

This episode features John Washington, Shannon’s husband and an average home cook who credits the Joy of Cooking for enhancing his culinary skills. John humorously shares anecdotes about his mother-in-law's praise whenever he cooks, ranging from making apple pie dough from scratch to baking a turkey for Thanksgiving (08:46).

Notable Quote:

"I’m an average, if not the average home cook. I like to bake. And I actually would say that the Joy of Cooking has been really instrumental in my growing understanding of how to cook." — John Washington (08:51)

Cooking Philosophy and Recipe Testing

John describes himself as a "recipe follower," meticulously measuring ingredients and cross-referencing recipes to ensure accuracy. He shares an amusing mishap where he mistakenly added a tablespoon instead of a teaspoon of salt to a lentil recipe, highlighting the importance of precision in cooking (19:22).

Notable Quote:

"If there's something in a recipe that isn't passing the sniff test for me, I usually have a miniature crisis and just forge ahead." — John Washington (19:48)

Pizza Discussion

A significant portion of the episode centers on pizza, prompted by a caller's question about favorite pizza styles, homemade versus store-bought crusts, and more.

• Historical Perspective: Jon Becker provides a historical overview of pizza recipes in previous editions of the Joy of Cooking, noting changes in dough hydration and the inclusion of cheese over time (36:41).
• Personal Favorites: Megan shares her love for Taleggio cheese on pizza, highlighting its melty texture and the delightful addition of honey post-baking for a sweet-savory contrast. She praises Roberta’s Pizzeria Cookbook for inspiring her pizza-making endeavors (42:22).
• Techniques and Tips: The hosts exchange practical tips for making perfect pizza, including:
  • Dough Handling: Using a pizza steel instead of a stone for better heat conduction.
  • Topping Management: Avoiding overloading pizzas to ensure the dough cooks properly.
  • Sauce Preparation: Advocating for simple homemade pizza sauce made from whole tomatoes, olive oil, basil, and salt, intentionally omitting garlic to prevent a "skunky" flavor (51:27).
  • Slice and Serve: Megan advises using low-moisture mozzarella to prevent sogginess, while Jon emphasizes preparing toppings to minimize excess moisture (53:00).

Notable Quote:

"Resist the urge to pile on toppings because it takes the dough won't cook properly and it'll be floppy and wet." — Megan Scott (51:27)

Recipe of the Week

The episode introduces the Grandma Style Pan Pizza as the week's Joy Scouts recipe, located on page 616 of the cookbook. This recipe is praised for its simplicity, requiring no pizza peel and being easily scalable for larger gatherings. Shannon and Jon commend the recipe for its versatility and ease of preparation, making it an excellent choice for both novice and experienced home cooks (52:23).

Listener Engagement and Upcoming Topics

Shannon invites listeners to call in with their pizza thoughts and shares anticipation for upcoming topics, including cooking live crabs. The hosts also discuss their personal cooking plans for the week, such as pierogi night, wings, and creative uses of buttermilk and okra, further emphasizing the community-driven nature of the podcast (54:10).

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Conclusion

The episode seamlessly blends personal anecdotes, culinary tips, and interactive discussions centered around pizza, showcasing the hosts' deep connection with the Joy of Cooking legacy. By incorporating quotes and specific timestamps, listeners gain a comprehensive and engaging overview of the episode's key themes and insights.

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Timestamp Reference:

• 00:39 – Introduction of Hosts
• 01:25 – Weekly Cooking Updates
• 02:37 – Megan's Cooking Highlights
• 08:46 – Introduction of John Washington
• 19:22 – Cooking Philosophy and Recipe Testing
• 36:41 – Pizza Historical Perspective
• 42:22 – Personal Pizza Favorites
• 51:27 – Pizza Techniques and Tips
• 52:23 – Recipe of the Week Introduction
• 54:10 – Listener Engagement and Upcoming Topics

Transcript

[John Washington]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, ardent Joy of Cooking user and fan and lover of Sriracha on pizza. Megan.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night, and I feed my cats with a golden spork.

[Jon Becker]

I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And I like recipe testing because it means I don't have to make any decisions about what to cook at night.

[Shannon Larson]

True.

[Jon Becker]

I'd rather. I'd rather take notes.

[Megan Scott]

What have you been cooking this week, Shannon?

[Shannon Larson]

We got our grill out because it feels like it's officially summer. So we grilled just burgers, very simple, very classic. Shredded lettuce, always the way to go. And we've been doing a lot of salads from the garden because the lettuce is out of control.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we can't really keep up with the lettuce.

[Shannon Larson]

I think I planted too much.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I know I planted too much. I was like, oh, God. Okay, we need to split a pack next time.

[Shannon Larson]

Yes. Because I do like to have different kinds, but we don't need six of each kind, we need three. So, yeah, let's do that next year.

[Jon Becker]

Just dress more than you think you'll eat and then pack it in.

[Megan Scott]

Dinosaur time.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

We also made the dubu jo rim, the spicy braised tofu from Sarah on and the cookbook Uma, which we interviewed her last week. It was so good. I think that's going to be a like, normal on rotation recipe for us.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, for us too.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, definitely. It's a banchan, but it's perfectly wonderful as like a protein main dish type type situation.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's how I did it.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, that's. We paired it with rice noodles and broccoli and it was just perfect.

[Jon Becker]

Nice.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. What about you, too?

[Megan Scott]

Well, we had a big party for John on Saturday and we made a lot of stuff, but I was thinking about my pickle dip, my dill pickle dip that I made for the party, which is one of my favorite summer potluck and barbecue things to make. And it's really easy and it kind of tastes like ranch dip except it has dill pickles in it and pickled brine. But if you, if you want to make my pickled dip recipe, you can find, you can find the recipe on thespruce eats.com and it's really, really easy. It's just like mayo and sour cream. And then I use the Trader Joe's dill pickle seasoning. But I do give an option if you don't have that or if you don't want to go to Trader Joe's and buy it.

[Shannon Larson]

You.

[Megan Scott]

You can just use like onion and garlic powder and dried dill and things like that.

[Shannon Larson]

Nice. It was delicious.

[Megan Scott]

So I use Grillo's pickles chopped up in there, which is my favorite store bought pickle because they remind me so much of my great grandmother's pickles. Like she used to put so much dill in her pickles. It was very strong dill flavor. And in the Grillo's container you just have like big pieces of very mature dill that's like start the flowers, you know. I also made a cake, like a. It was a chocolate buttermilk cake with raspberry buttercream. I know we were talking a couple weeks ago about how, you know, one cake with two people is just like way too much.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

One of my friends at the gym at Orange Theory, she listened to that episode and she was like, you were so right not to bring cake into this gym because like, we are all trying to lose weight except for me. She was like, please don't bring cake.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh no. I mean, the cake you made for John's party was incredible. Did you have any leftover?

[Megan Scott]

No, no, the last slice. So John didn't get a slice when we were cutting it up. I don't know how that happened.

[Jon Becker]

I got the last one, but we.

[Megan Scott]

Had one slice left at the end of the night and then he ate it, so. Oh, good. Yeah, it was perfect.

[Jon Becker]

It was actually a pretty generous slice.

[Megan Scott]

So it worked out.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it worked out.

[Megan Scott]

Somebody brought cheese board to the party. So we had all these little nubbins of random cheeses and I made fromage fort which is here in the middle of the table for everyone to taste.

[Shannon Larson]

I was wondering. It was like, okay, I can't wait.

[Megan Scott]

It's basically just fancy cheese spread that you puree all different kinds of cheeses together and add enough. I used white wine. Add just enough white wine to like bring everything together. If you wanted to keep it more neutral, you could use like cream or milk or something to thin it out, but it's just really delicious and easy. And if you have a cheese issue, like some of us at this table do, it's a good thing to keep in mind.

[Shannon Larson]

I don't know what you're talking about. There's no cheese issue here.

[Megan Scott]

You're right. It's not an issue and just a way of living.

[Jon Becker]

If listeners do need more guidance on that, we do have a basic Recipe on page 55 of the 2019 edition.

[Megan Scott]

You with the page numbers. So good.

[Jon Becker]

I'm learning.

[Megan Scott]

And then let's briefly talk about our recipe of the week. Right. Our Joy Scouts recipe of the week from last week, which was creme fraiche. And as we discussed before we started taping, none of us made it.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh. The week got away from me for some reason.

[Megan Scott]

I know. Me too. It went really fast.

[Jon Becker]

It could have been easy to incorporate that into a whipped cream frosting situation for the cake, too.

[Megan Scott]

Look, I was following a recipe for the cake. Creme fraiche was not needed. But you could do that for some other theoretical cake.

[Jon Becker]

It's funny, because one of the dips that somebody brought did have creme fraiche in it. So in a sense, we did the recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

A thousand percent. A thousand percent. That totally counts. One of my favorite ways to use creme fraiche, though, is those trout toasts that I like to make that I brought camping with us at one time, where you just take a good cracker and you put creme fraiche on the cracker. And the smoked trout from Trader Joe's is so freaking good. And then you'd, like, top it with, like, Mama Little's peppers and herbs or whatever else you want on top. I think a pickled jalapeno would be good, too, but it's so delicious, it doesn't seem like it would make sense. Creme fraiche and smoked canned trout, but it does.

[Megan Scott]

No, it really does. It can go savory or sweet, which is part of why it's nice to have around. Can you. For listeners who may not know what mama lils are, can you describe them?

[Shannon Larson]

They're sweet pickled peppers, and they're incredibly delicious. But they're pickled in, like, they're packed in olive oil, so they're. You can. I also use the, like, olive oil basis for dressings and things like that as well, I guess. Is that a Pacific Northwest thing?

[Megan Scott]

It's local. Oh. I mean, I think they're nationally distributed, but it is a local company, which I didn't realize until I saw them at the fancy Food show last year in New York. And I was like, oh, you're from Portland. What? I had no idea. I thought everyone knew.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

About how, how amazing they are. But.

[Shannon Larson]

But if you ever see them in the store, wherever you are, get them. Cause they're great. Costco sells the large, large size. Just cracked those open last night.

[Megan Scott]

You happen to have a Costco membership like some of us do.

[Shannon Larson]

Just saying.

[Jon Becker]

Costco's do vary. Local ones might be more likely to carry it.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

But please make the. Unlike us, please make the creme fraiche recipe on page 974. It's very easy. It is really just heavy cream and a tablespoon or two of buttermilk. Or you can use yogurt and you just let it sit at room temperature for a day or two until it thickens and then you refrigerate it and that's it.

[Shannon Larson]

You did just get that buttermilk on sale. So maybe you should make some creme fraiche with it.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, that'll use like a very tiny amount of it. But yes.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, like a. I bought a half gallon at the store because it was on sale.

[Jon Becker]

We could make a ton of creme fraiche. So much just for penance.

[Megan Scott]

All right, this week we would like to welcome John Washington to the table. John, normally I would read your bio, but since you are a average home cook, if you don't mind my saying so, would you introduce yourself, Tell us a little bit about, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do and how you are involved with the people at this table.

[John Washington]

Sure. Wow, that was freighted with meaning.

[Megan Scott]

Sorry, that was a little.

[John Washington]

I love it. I'm John Washington. I think that was mentioned already. And I am married to Shannon Larson, the co host of this show. And I am an average, if not the average home cook. I like to bake. And I actually would say that the joy of cooking has been really instrumental in my growing understanding of how to cook.

[Megan Scott]

Nice. That's awesome.

[John Washington]

My mother in law likes to say anytime I cook something that I'm becoming quite the chef.

[Shannon Larson]

Yes, she does that every time.

[John Washington]

It doesn't, it doesn't matter the lift or the difficulty of the recipe. I think, I think the first time she said it, I made an apple pie from scratch. Like made, made the dough and everything myself and very proud of it, you know, and she's like, you're becoming quite the chef. And then I think Thanksgiving, I baked a turkey on my own. She's like, you're becoming quite the chef.

[Jon Becker]

You are.

[Megan Scott]

You're always becoming quite the chef.

[Jon Becker]

Those are quite the chef. Appropriate things.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. It's not like she's saying it after, like, making a box of macaroni and cheese.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Jon Becker]

Grilled cheese. I mean, grilled cheese is great.

[Shannon Larson]

Your grilled cheese is really good.

[John Washington]

Oh, thank you.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I think the simple things are where you can really show your knowledge and your acupuncture and.

[John Washington]

Yeah. Repetition too.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[John Washington]

Clocking in a lot of hours making grilled cheeses in a lifetime, you. You figure things out.

[Megan Scott]

Do you have any grilled cheese secrets that you'd be willing to share? How do you approach your grilled cheese?

[John Washington]

Gosh. Mayonnaise on the bread was a big game changer. I didn't do that. I used to just do butter in the pan. I don't think I have any big secret to it other than, gosh, toast the heck out of it. And also putting a cover over the frying pan for a little while to get the cheese to melt all the way through. Because you, you know, it's really unsatisfying when you pull the pieces together and there isn't cheese in the middle. You've got to really work for that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Do you have a favorite cheese that you use?

[John Washington]

Ooh. I think Muenster is kind of really good for grilled chicken.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. It's a go to for us, especially with tomato soup.

[Jon Becker]

I just. I cannot remember the last time I've had Muenster. And now I'm realizing the error of my ways.

[Megan Scott]

There's a lot of cheeses out there to be eaten.

[John Washington]

That's all I'll say.

[Megan Scott]

John, what have you been cooking this week that you're excited about?

[John Washington]

I think the big one probably is pizza. We did a big pizza night last night, and I actually, I tried two different doughs. When it came to that. I did the one from the Joy of Cooking, of course, which I think the pizza dough recipe is probably our most turned two page.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[John Washington]

The page is real crinkly, especially because I touch it with flour and water, covered hands. So, yeah, it's very crinkly. It's crusted with bits of dough. The matzo ball soup recipe is the other one that we open to a lot. And again, because usually the kitchen gets steamy during that time, that page is also pretty worn.

[Megan Scott]

It's pretty gross.

[John Washington]

Yeah. And the pasta dough recipe, that's also, again, flourish. Where was I going with this? So I. Oh, things you've cooked this.

[Megan Scott]

Week that you are excited about?

[John Washington]

Yeah. And I have been meaning to for a Long time do an overnight rise on a pizza dough. So I did the recipe per the tartine cookbook, which is kind of. That's kind of where my baking technique has been developing. I like that book a lot because it's very. It's very process oriented. I sometimes when reading instructions, I can get tripped up a little bit in verbiage. And I'm sure you, you know, I'm preaching to the choir with this, where sometimes you read a recipe and you just. You can find yourself slipping through different cracks in terms of bringing something to a boil in the pot or bringing the water to a boil and then adding it to the pot. Things like that. I can get really. I know once we had a debate over in an ingredient list whether if it said something is a quarter cup of cup of something chopped, is it a quarter cup after chopping or.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, yeah, I think we texted you guys.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we did text about that. The commas. The commas me. They take on a lot of meaning in recipes.

[John Washington]

It's a load bearing comma.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it really is.

[Shannon Larson]

But yeah, we did the. You did the tartine recipe as well. And we also got a loaf of sourdough from it too. That was a little.

[Megan Scott]

That is one of the nice, really nice things about that book is like, that you can use the bread recipe for, like, the base recipe gets used in all the variations. Like the. I love the walnut bread that's in that book. And then there's like a polenta loaf with rosemary and pumpkin seeds or something. I haven't made it in forever, but it's so good.

[Shannon Larson]

Sounds really good.

[Jon Becker]

So not only was it an overnight proofing, but it was also a sour dip. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Washington]

Would you say the pizza crust itself was very sour? Shannon?

[Shannon Larson]

You could taste it, but it wasn't, like, overwhelming. But they were both delicious. We had a friend over. She helped us eat them. Margarita on one and then the other.

[John Washington]

One had prosciutto Mama Lil's peppers and cheese and tomato sauce.

[Shannon Larson]

Pretty simple.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Really good. We're gonna get into more pizza tops. Yes. Later in the episode, so we should.

[John Washington]

Save a little bit front loading all the pizza.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, no, it's okay.

[John Washington]

We've got lots to talk about.

[Megan Scott]

I also, I will go back to the tartine book, though, because that was the baking book that finally clicked. It helped me understand sourdough like I had tried a few other times and not hadn't really clicked. And then I got that book, and I think that all the photos really helped me at least the first Few times because there are so many photos of the process of making the bread. That was super helpful. I remember one time John and I got to meet Samin Nosrat and we were talking to her about sourdough. It was probably the time we went to Bar tartine or something to have dinner. So we were probably talking about that and I was like, I'd love their sourdough recipe. It's so easy for me to comprehend. Like what. How to do sourdough in a way that makes sense. And she laughed so hard because she was like, that is a 20 page recipe. Which it is. Yeah, it is.

[John Washington]

Yeah. It takes a long time to get through. There's that one step where you shape it.

[Jon Becker]

20 beautiful pages.

[John Washington]

You know, it's a 20 page journey.

[Megan Scott]

It's. Yeah, it's all photos.

[Jon Becker]

You know, there's like a lot of.

[John Washington]

When you have to shape it and shape the dough and like you pull it over itself three, four different times and then you push the dough away from yourself and then you pull it back towards you. I always have to open to that page just to double check it. And having all those photos really, really helps keep me grounded.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Explaining things like that in words in a recipe can sometimes be. I mean, we had to do it sometimes. Enjoy. Because we don't have photos, limited illustrations. But it's really challenging because you can. I mean, one person will read it a completely different way than another person as, as we were discussing.

[Jon Becker]

I feel like that does like, affect our editorial choices as well. Like if we cannot communicate it in intelligible form where most people are going to, you know, grasp the idea without reading like five times, then maybe it's not the recipe for us.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Although I can't remember a recipe that we just said we weren't. Weren't going to have or weren't going to include because it's too tricky.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I can't think of a particular one. I know that that conversation has happened though.

[Shannon Larson]

You just have to work extra hard to make it clear.

[Megan Scott]

And in testing, make sure that the people who test it ask them about it, like, does this make sense to you? And not really explain it to them.

[Jon Becker]

Before they try it or maybe decide on using or advocating for a technique or a recipe that's not quite as involved that you get 90% of the goodness of those results for something that's easier to explain. I don't know where I'm going with this.

[Megan Scott]

That made sense to me. John, what's your relationship with Joy of Cooking? Was it a cookbook that your parents had around, or did you come to it as an adult, as a grown up?

[John Washington]

Actually, I was thinking back on this. I was casting my memory to the past. We had one cookbook in our house growing up, and it was the Betty Crocker Cookbook with the plaid cover, and it remained in the cupboard and unused. My mom kind of had a repertoire of recipes that she would go to and, you know, she was doing. If she was cooking something new, it was usually she had found an ingredient or a different, you know, different protein at the butcher counter. But otherwise it wasn't like she was really exploring. And I think boiling water was the most advanced cooking technique that I really brought into adulthood.

[Jon Becker]

Water based cooking is very important.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, yeah. This whole water based cooking thing.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, sorry, I. Sorry of the moments. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

This is a very Internet thing. Thing.

[John Washington]

It's soup, right? I mean, we're doing soup.

[Jon Becker]

Might be stew.

[Megan Scott]

Depends on how much water or steaming. Steaming is.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, there's so much.

[Shannon Larson]

There is water based cooking.

[John Washington]

But, yeah, I think the joy of cooking came into my life when you two came into my life.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[John Washington]

Yeah. And so our friendship has kind of marked my journey as well. And I. I'm in the acknowledgments of the 2019 edition because I helped to test recipes. And our copy is seriously, like the. The cornerstone of our cookbook library. And it's just something I break out anytime I'm cooking something that I haven't before or again, going to specific recipes that I do over and over and over again. As has been mentioned on this podcast previously, I am a recipe follower. And so I'm very guilty of doing the thing where I look at the cookbook and it says two and a half cups of flour. And I get the measuring cup and the flour, and then I look at the cookbook, it says two and a half cups of flour. And then I measure two and a half cups of flour. And then I look one more time to make sure that the amount I've measured out still matches the words, because sometimes they change under me.

[Jon Becker]

Obviously, your reputation precedes you as a recipe follower. And yet. And yet one of the first things you were talking about was how there are these cracks that you can slip into, like, in the wording of a recipe or what have you. I was kind of curious, like, how often that happens since you're so attentive to the text. Like, when you do find a crack, like, what is. What do you just do? You lose faith? Do you just kind of like, go chart Your own path at that point or.

[John Washington]

No, I go down with that shit.

[Shannon Larson]

He goes down.

[John Washington]

I'm not. Shannon encourages me to trust my gut a lot more. I'm working on it. I definitely am catching myself before I ask certain questions of should I do this or this? And sometimes just answer it for myself. But, yeah, usually if there's something in a recipe that isn't passing the sniff test for me, I usually have a miniature crisis and just forge ahead. I mean, I. A notable example I can think of is that there was a recipe online that asked, called for using a tablespoon of salt where it clearly meant a teaspoon of salt.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Washington]

And I think it was a go to recipe. It was good recipe that I liked making for, I think lentils. And I definitely more than once put a tablespoon of salt. Oh, no, not pot of lentils.

[Jon Becker]

I don't know if I would ever go that far. But I will go down with the ship. Like in an. From a place of vindictiveness where I will just. It's like the hate cooking. You know, sometimes I'll just.

[Megan Scott]

No one's familiar tell people what hate cooking is.

[Shannon Larson]

I don't. I think that's.

[Jon Becker]

Why not mention this specifically.

[Shannon Larson]

You thing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's a you thing.

[Jon Becker]

Well, I'll just be like, get a load of this. And then I'll just. And then, like, you know, just to prove it to myself and everyone else, I'll just do what the recipe stupidly told me to do.

[Shannon Larson]

But then you're, like, eating bad food.

[Jon Becker]

But there is a lesson has been learned.

[Shannon Larson]

Did you, like, contact the author, see.

[Megan Scott]

How bad it was?

[Jon Becker]

Well, and plus, sometimes I'm surprised, like, oh, wow. Well, that was. That was unwarranted. You know.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that's good.

[Jon Becker]

But not all. Mostly not.

[Megan Scott]

I will say. Yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm pretty good at sniffing out when there's a problem because I've cooked so many recipes and tested so many and developed so many, but occasionally there will be one where it's like, okay, they're telling me to do this. My gut is telling me I shouldn't. And they're not explaining the reasoning, but a really good recipe will explain why you're doing a thing that maybe sounds counterintuitive or like, no, actually, you want to use the entire tablespoon of salt. That's not a type typo. Right.

[Jon Becker]

There's a meta commentary going on. It's like, I know what you're thinking.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I really like it when recipe Writers level with you and are like, this sounds weird. Just go with it. Trust the process.

[Shannon Larson]

Well, I think that also makes it feel like they're respecting you as a cook and as an intelligent person to be like, I know this tablespoon of salt sounds crazy, but here's why it actually works. And they're like, okay, you know what you're doing. You're just following this recipe though.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, but when they don't say anything, then you're like, what do I do.

[Shannon Larson]

When I find recipes like online and stuff, like traditional recipes or classic recipes and it just doesn't look right? I pull the joy out and I compare and I'm like, you're wrong. Recipe person online.

[Jon Becker]

You're welcome.

[Shannon Larson]

John Becker, you look very proud.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, that's a good point.

[Jon Becker]

Well, no, that's kind of like what we hope for. Kind of.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, you, you know, we want to be there for people who, you know, are scratching their heads when they're looking at other people's recipes. Whether it's like something that just goes unsaid or something that seems off or.

[Megan Scott]

Even just like maybe there's a recipe and it calls for an ingredient you're not familiar with but they don't bother to explain what it is or. And you don't know anything about it. So you can look it up. In the Know youw Ingredients chapter.

[Sarah Marshall]

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[Megan Scott]

We kind of touched on this, John, but you are a recipe follower. But like, what defines your cooking style? Like what kinds of recipes do you gravitate towards? What kinds of things do you like to make?

[John Washington]

Make the most interesting question. I don't. This is a good question. I feel like I should. I'm tempted to defer to the subject matter expert sometimes. Shannon knows me better than I know myself when it comes to what I gravitate towards in recipes. I feel like variety is usually the operative word when I think of how we pick what we cook, sometimes to a fault. Sometimes I think that we want to make sure that we are stretching our horizons, that we aren't just cooking the same five meals over and over. And now that I say this out loud, it does take me back to what I was saying about growing up in a household where Friday was tuna casserole night, Wednesday was spaghetti night. Like, very, very much a small wheel of meals that we would spin. And I. Yeah, I think I.

[Shannon Larson]

We go too far sometimes where we should be leaning more on, like, those things that we really enjoy eating.

[John Washington]

Right.

[Shannon Larson]

But we. We don't. And I don't know why we are doing, like, wing night this week. John makes killer homemade wings, and they're delicious. And they're healthier for you because he doesn't fry them.

[John Washington]

Are we just terrified of boring one another? I don't want to turn this into marriage counseling, but are we just trying to make sure that we're never. We're keeping one another on our toes?

[Shannon Larson]

I think so.

[John Washington]

With our food choices.

[Shannon Larson]

I mean, we're also, like, a childless couple. We have the time to, like, cook, and we enjoy cooking together, especially in the kitchen now, where we have a kitchen that makes sense to cook in for two people. It's something we enjoy doing together. And then also, I feel like there's a slight competition when we pick out recipes. Honestly, competitiveness, a little bit. Like, we are always trying to find, like, really interesting recipes for the other person.

[John Washington]

Yeah. You know, I don't want to suggest something really dull to you when that inevitable discussion of what are we eating for dinner is going to be.

[Shannon Larson]

But then again, like, you make really good chicken thighs, and sometimes we just do that with, like, couscous and vegetables. That's a pretty normal recipe to go to.

[John Washington]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

And he makes me matzo ball soup when I'm feeling sad or sick.

[Jon Becker]

Nice.

[John Washington]

Which. That is definitely a recipe I think I've mastered. Really mastered over the years.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Any tweaks for that recipe that you would like to share, or do you just make it as is?

[Shannon Larson]

I think we add more celery. That's just normal for us.

[John Washington]

I've started cooking the chicken parts in the stock because it just makes the stock richer. And, yeah, we hang on to schmaltz these days and throw that in. That's One of the parentheses parenthesized ingredients in the recipe. And I think that, yeah, if you have access to schmaltz malts, it's well worth putting in the maltz balls. It helps with the texture a ton.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

So you were saying that you think that you guys. Maybe there's too much variety. Like, when. What makes you think that? Is it just like, this kind of the logistics of, you know, shopping the.

[Shannon Larson]

Amount of condiments we have or, like, random things. At one point, a friend came over and opened our fridge, and she was like, why do you guys have so many jars of stuff everywhere?

[John Washington]

We do have a lot of jars.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, we do.

[John Washington]

Yeah, it's. It's good, though.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's good.

[Shannon Larson]

No, it's.

[John Washington]

It's great to put things on stuff.

[Megan Scott]

Stuff on things.

[Shannon Larson]

Yes, stuff on things.

[Jon Becker]

It is a key technique.

[Shannon Larson]

I think maybe the. The issue for it, for me sometimes is I just get tired of thinking about what to cook, which I know is a normal thing for everybody. And I feel like we probably need just a list on our whiteboard on the fridge that we now have, thanks to you two, inspiring me to do that of, like, regular go to meals that we both enjoy. And then it's okay to just make that every week if we need to.

[John Washington]

Yeah, I saw that Pierogi night is looming over us.

[Shannon Larson]

Yes. We have frozen pierogies, and they're delicious.

[John Washington]

It's been a good idea to just have a few of those kind of swimming around. Like, the threat of pierogi night.

[Shannon Larson]

It is. I put an extra behind it. I don't know why pierogi night, but it is.

[John Washington]

It's good to have the idea. I think being in Portland, we're very lucky to have the farmers markets, because then over the weekend, you can usually find a few ingredients that you can kind of focus an exciting meal around.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. Like, I went to the farmer's market and got sausages from Scratch Meats, which is a local company here. They make amazing food.

[Jon Becker]

Excellent sausages.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, excellent. So we always have, like, some of those in our freezer. And then I got some crab cakes from the fishmonger at the market this time. And so I was like, that'll be a good base for a night where we are, like, we really don't want to think about it. But I also really love fresh Dungeness crab cakes. Why not?

[Jon Becker]

That sounds like an amazing surf and turf situation.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Actually, I don't. I have no idea how that would work, but I'm sure something could happen an Appetizer, entree, surf and turf.

[Shannon Larson]

How do you two cook together? Like, do you take turns picking out recipes? Do you, like, work on it together?

[Megan Scott]

I normally come up with a meal plan every Sunday and then I break it.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

And then John. John is like, I don't want that and we'll figure something else out.

[Jon Becker]

Or I'll sign up for a recipe test. Like, you know.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Like, we did smash burgers last night and that was a completely not premeditated thing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. It was just a recipe test that John did for his like, part time job. And it kind of came up at the last minute and I was like, okay, well, yeah, smash burgers sounds great.

[Jon Becker]

It's the first time I've smashed a burger. The first one came apart.

[Megan Scott]

Did it?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I was like, I have to get out of the kitchen right now because I could feel the stress. I was like, I don't need to be in here. I'm not going to let him cook. And it was momentary, I know, but I just wanted to give you your space and not be doing stuff and unloading the dishwasher, you know.

[Jon Becker]

My space. My space is a precious commodity.

[Megan Scott]

Yes. I have different strategies for coming up with ideas for what to eat. Like one strategy. Well, so my, my normal meal planning process is like, I look in my fridge, I write down a list of stuff that I have that I need to use. I look at the pantry, write down a few things, I look at the freezer and write down a few things. And then I try to come up with all my ideas by like putting those things together. But sometimes if it. If I'm just not seeing the connections between the ingredients, I'll get a cookbook out or a few cookbooks, and then I'll start looking up stuff in the index. Like, okay, well, I have asparagus. What asparagus recipes are in here. If any of them sound good, maybe I'll make that recipe or maybe I'll just take it as inspiration to do something else. It's more to just jog your creativity than anything.

[Jon Becker]

Or you sometimes find a half gallon.

[Megan Scott]

Of buttermilk or that. Yeah. Like yesterday we were grocery shopping. I found. So they had ground lamb on sale for like $3 a pound. I bought two of those. And then I bought half a gallon of buttermilk because that was on sale for like a dollar fifty. And then I was like, well, what, what are we gonna do? So we're gonna do fried chicken, and I'm probably gonna make with lamb.

[Shannon Larson]

With lamb?

[Megan Scott]

No, not with Lamb. I froze the lamb.

[Jon Becker]

Later, mock fried chicken, put it in like a drumstick shape and freeze it and then deep fry.

[Megan Scott]

Creative.

[Shannon Larson]

We just recently discovered you can freeze buttermilk. Yeah, I didn't realize that. And usually we get buttermilk when we make samins. Buttermilk roasted chicken, which is our favorite. But then we always have leftover buttermilk because we don't really use it except for that. And so now we have it in our freezer.

[John Washington]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I also recommend the cornbread, the southern cornbread recipe. Enjoy. For buttermilk. Oh, okay, good.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that's your cornbread?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Well, there's my. There's a southern cornbread, and then there's my cornbread, which is special.

[Shannon Larson]

Your cornbread is special.

[Megan Scott]

It uses a. So I like to combine fine cornmeal and medium grind or like stone ground. And the only thing about that is it can be a little crunchy in a way that I don't. My teeth don't love. So what I did was I soak the cornmeal in boiling water and just let it sit. Basically. I do that in the morning, let it sit all day, and then at night I'll add buttermilk and, like, an egg and the leaveners. But it gives the cornbread kind of like a custardy texture in the middle. But it makes a big difference, the soaking. But it's special.

[Jon Becker]

Our friend Sarah was saying it keeps better too.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's more moist. It doesn't dry out as quickly. So you used to do stand up comedy. Is that okay for me to say?

[Shannon Larson]

Are we allowed to talk about this?

[John Washington]

I'll allow this.

[Shannon Larson]

Okay.

[Megan Scott]

I promise. It relates. And maybe this is a hard question, but do you ever apply any of the, like, strategies or skills that you use doing standup comedy? Somebody in cooking or in the kitchen, like, coming up with jokes or. I don't know. I don't even know what skills you need to do stand up.

[Shannon Larson]

Improvising.

[John Washington]

I'm bad at improvising when it comes to the kitchen. I was good at improvising when I did stand up. Oh, gosh. I think that it's.

[Megan Scott]

Maybe the answer is no.

[John Washington]

I think the answer might be no. I think comedy's a very unskilled endeavor. Maybe. You know what? I can tie these things together. Maybe it's a little bit like cooking in the sense that repetition and not being afraid to try new things and understanding what works and why are all useful. I feel like I've abstracted both processes, though, that I could be describing fixing Cars right now?

[Shannon Larson]

Sure.

[Megan Scott]

Fair enough.

[Shannon Larson]

You make cooking fun.

[John Washington]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Do you tell jokes when you're cooking?

[John Washington]

I don't think so. Am I, am I okay? Yeah, I guess I just sort of. It comes natural to me.

[Megan Scott]

I guess so.

[F]

Oh, hello. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about an easy way to enhance your meals. Whether they are a healthy vegan grain bowl or. Or that late night snack we'll pretend didn't happen the next day. And that easy way is Marshall's haute sauce. For 15 years, chef and cookbook author Sarah Marshall has been hand making and bottling these delicious sauces. She works directly with local farmers and highlights the lovely flavors of fresh seasonal produce. They're gluten free. There are no additives, dyes, waxes or binders. And they have mouth watering combinations like serrano ginger, lemongrass or habanero carrot curry or even whiskey smoked ghost, which was featured on Hot Ones. So head on over to marshallshootsauce.com that's marshallsh a u t e s a u c e dot com and see all the available sauces and spice blends. Oh, that's right. Sarah's created spice packets by dehydrating and freeze drying actual produce so you can impart flavor to your food with more vegetables. But that's a story for another day. Find all of these delicious [e-mail] and enter Haute Joy. That's one word, capital H A u T e capital J.J. o Y. One word at checkout for 20% off. That's haute joy at checkout for 20% off. And now back to the show.

[Megan Scott]

All right, so each week we choose a topic based on caller questions. And this week we are talking about pizza. Sarah, can you read the question or play the clip please?

[Sarah Marshall]

Hello, longtime listener, first time caller. I want to hear your pizza thoughts. When did it enter Joy of cooking? What are your favorite styles to make at home? Store bought crust versus homemade, deep dish versus thin. No matter how you slice it, Just share your pizza passions.

[Megan Scott]

This person has to be a writer. That's a really well written question.

[Shannon Larson]

No matter how you slice, slice. It makes me giggle.

[Megan Scott]

It's so cute.

[Shannon Larson]

Do we have pizza thoughts around this table? I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

I don't know.

[Jon Becker]

Well, I can start with the history, I guess.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, start with the history.

[Jon Becker]

So yeah, 1951 edition. Vegetable shortcake or pizza napoletana? Vegetable shortcake. Yeah, vegetable shortcake. It's a sheet pan situation. Tomato paste is spread over the dough. I don't know exactly how that works. Because tomato paste is. Maybe it was thinner.

[Megan Scott]

Maybe it was thinner.

[Jon Becker]

I don't know. Then an olive oil, anchovy paste oregano mixture is spread on top of that. Again, like, the mechanics of that are sketchy.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. You kind of wonder why you wouldn't just mix everything, like the paste and the oil and everything together.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Because that would thin out the paste and then it would be easier to do. But even there was no cheese and. Oh, yeah. Sliced Italian sausage, but not pepperoni could be substituted for the anchovy.

[Megan Scott]

Wait, what?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Have you made it?

[Jon Becker]

No, no.

[Shannon Larson]

You should make it.

[Jon Becker]

The hydration of the dough is really questionable and. Or actually, wait, no. This one calls just for bread recipes. It doesn't get really questionable until the 1963. I actually calculated it, and it's like 42% hydration, which. That is very dry.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's very low.

[Jon Becker]

Very, very dry, like.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

But this seems like prime for John Becker. Hate cooking, like.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Shannon Larson]

I think you just need to try it.

[Jon Becker]

They're family. I can't do it. I mean, I, I, to be honest, I, I have done that to Joy recipes. I mean, I feel like that's part of the whole updating process is, you know, we gotta. We gotta follow the recipes as they are written to make sure that. To make sure they are great or suck and. But yeah, this one obviously has been our pizza. Recipes, like, as they were handed down to the two of us, you know, in the 2006 and 1997 edition, are actually pretty solid, so we didn't have to deal with this.

[Megan Scott]

But any other interesting pizza tidbits from the annals of Joy history?

[Jon Becker]

Well, I just want to emphasize that there's no cheese in that.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, some pizzas.

[Jon Becker]

I know. No, I mean, they usually get, like, at least a topping. What is it? I'm going to mispronounce it. Svencione. Svencione. That's like a Sicilian pizza. Doesn't really get, like, melted cheese on it, but then it gets topped with pecorino and breadcrumbs. I mean, there's always something, something. I mean, you like focaccia? You know, I guess it's. We'll be kind and say that it's.

[Megan Scott]

More of a focaccia.

[Jon Becker]

More of a focaccia. So, yeah, 1975, the hydration of the dough gets fixed, but it's calling for, like, slices of cheese, which is kind of strange. Then 1997. I don't know. We could have a whole conversation about this, but they gave pizza special place of a chapter. It's like sandwiches, burritos and pizza. And then this is the justification for doing that. Almost every culture has its sandwich end quote quotations, whether the burritos of Mexico, the filled pita pockets of the Middle east, or the calzone, the calzones and by extension pizzas. Open faced sandwiches of Italy. And I feel like this, none of.

[Megan Scott]

Those things are sandwiches.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, especially the open faced sandwich. Like description of a pizza that would just like not fly on Reddit or anywhere. You would just be like completely shouted down. Oh, yeah, it would be bad.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, people don't think hot dogs are sandwiches.

[Jon Becker]

Right. So let alone.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, let alone.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I mean, that's wild.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I feel like the 97 edition has some really funky pros in it.

[Jon Becker]

It was a stretch and I can understand what they were trying to do. You know, we used to have this brunch lunch and supper dishes chapter that was like this, you know, kind of grab bag of things that you might serve at lunch, might serve at dinner. And they were trying to, you know, find a home for recipes that were in that chapter. And pizza did live, I think, in the. Yes, it did live in the brunch lunch and supper dishes chapter. And so they were just trying to like, I guess it's like handheld. So there's that.

[Shannon Larson]

Handheld foods.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, handheld foods, yeah. But that is. That's not a very enticing chapter title.

[Megan Scott]

It doesn't really give you a lot of faith reading that.

[Jon Becker]

I don't know.

[Shannon Larson]

But you said the pizza recipe itself was decent.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's perfectly. I mean, I. Did it change at all between 97 and the.06?

[Jon Becker]

The dough recipe didn't change. There's not too many changes. There's like a list of possible toppings. In the 2006, we were able to cover more ground than the 1987 where you were just kind of like, there are like a bunch of options for red or white pies, but very specific combinations. But then again, like, you just list ingredients and it's kind of. If you're not really suggesting what goes with what, then it's like, what are you ordering at Domino's? What.

[Megan Scott]

Anyway, and then in the 2019 edition, we put in a chart for possible combinations rather than have a bunch of different paragraph style, you know, variations on the pizza recipe.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. And both in. In Those last. The 97 and the 2006, there was a chicken and broccoli pizza. And we did not. We did not do that again.

[Megan Scott]

I have thoughts about chicken on pizza. Not once.

[Shannon Larson]

I guess that's the question. So, favorite pizza toppings?

[Megan Scott]

When we first started getting into making pizza at home, we used the Roberta's Pizzeria Cookbook. So Roberta's is a pizza place in Brooklyn, and they got really big, like 12, 15 years ago, something like that. It was kind of a cool little spot. You know, it was like, at the time in a part of Brooklyn where there was just, like, a bunch of warehouses around and. But there was this cool little pizza spot, and they had. That was where Heritage Radio Network was as well. So they had, like, the shipping container that was like a podcast studio that people would come and they had all these different shows. So we made our way there and had the pizza there once. It was very good. We bought their cookbook. Their dough recipe is really solid, but they have a pizza that uses Taleggio. It's just. It's a white pie.

[Jon Becker]

I was trying to look it up.

[Megan Scott]

Taleggio, black pepper. You pour on just a tiny bit of heavy cream onto the pizza. Just a little bit.

[Jon Becker]

It's called the cheese's Christ.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, the cheeses. Jesus. Pizza Taleggio is a washed rind cheese. It's pretty funky. It smells pretty funky, but the flavor is mild, I would say. But it's very melty. But on a pizza, it's so delicious. And then at the end, after you baked the pizza, you drizzle on honey, so it's a little bit sweet, a little savory.

[Jon Becker]

Did you say black pepper?

[Megan Scott]

I said black pepper. Very simple pizza. But that's one we pretty much would always make whenever we made pizza.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. And it actually. Yeah. So I think there are at least two topping variations that we put in the 2019 where there. There's some Taleggio involved.

[Megan Scott]

It's a great cheese for pizza.

[Jon Becker]

We really got excited about that cheese and. Yeah.

[John Washington]

Yeah, I did not know about that cheese.

[Shannon Larson]

Sounds like we need to get some.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, check it out. Yeah. But in terms of, like, what kind of pizza we make, so we have. We actually haven't made pizza in a little while, which I feel a little guilty about.

[Jon Becker]

We're gonna change that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we're gonna change it. We're gonna make it.

[Jon Becker]

And, like, the creme fraiche, we will follow through.

[Megan Scott]

We're going to make this week's recipe, I promise. But we would usually make. We would usually use the. Either the Roberta's dough or then once the 2019 joy came out, we added an overnight rise recipe.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. You know, the. So just about everything about The. About the dough recipe in the 2006 edition and the 1997 edition, too. It's the same dough recipe. It's a. It's a good level of. Of hydration, and it's. You know, it's just a good dough. You just need to maybe add. You know, we just. We have a version where you just add a little bit less yeast, and then you let it rise overnight in the refrigerator.

[Megan Scott]

And that gives it a really nice. I think it gives a really nice texture, like a nice chewy chewiness. And for a long time, we were baking our pies in just our regular home oven, but. So we started with a pizza stone, but then we upgraded to. We got a pizza steel. So a baking steel, which is like a. How thick is it? Quarter inch.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, I think they sell different.

[Megan Scott]

Different things.

[Jon Becker]

You know, the thicker, the more expensive. But I feel like the. The thickest one that is like a half inch, so maybe it's a quarter inch. I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

Ours is not half an inch, but, yeah, it is.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, okay.

[Megan Scott]

But you preheat this, it's just a slab of stuff steel in your oven. Really, really hot. Like, as hot as your oven will go. And then you slide the pizza on there. Shut the door. And I think you immediately turn the broiler on. Is that the method?

[Jon Becker]

You have it at 500, and then you slide the pizza in there, you turn the broiler on, and. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Huh.

[Megan Scott]

So you're really blasting it. But it turns out really, really good pizzas. But, you know, it's like a thinner crust pizza.

[John Washington]

Do you par. Bake your crusts at all?

[Megan Scott]

No, we never have.

[John Washington]

How do you get the pizza off of the peel and onto the stone, especially once it's dressed? Because I.

[Megan Scott]

This is a very good question.

[John Washington]

I have dressed many pizzas very nicely, and then they, you know, they stick to the pizza peel, and when it comes out, it's oblong, and all of the ingredients have kind of.

[Megan Scott]

They're, like, on one side.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I wrote a whole bunch of, like, beginner's advice that is not in the book. But, I mean, most of it's just, like, gleaned from watching you. Do you do it?

[Megan Scott]

I'm, like, weirdly good at it, really. But what I do is. I mean, I just. I used to use cornmeal. I stopped doing that, and I. Now I just use flour, because I think you don't need cornmeal. But I'll dust the pilo with flour. I stretch my dough out by holding it over my knuckles by, like, letting it. Letting the weight of the dough stretch it out. So it kind of stretches itself out, and you rotate it over your knuckles to, like, get it as thin as you want, put it on the peel, put all the toppings on. And then before I try to slide it onto the stone or steel or whatever, I give it a shake. Like, I shake the peel back and forth. And if the pizza moves on the peel, it's going to be okay. If it's not moving or you can see that part of it is stuck.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Sometimes there's like, a sticky part. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Like a little piece. I'll lift up the dough and then throw some flour under there, scoot it under there, then try it again. And I do that until it's moving. You want it to, like, move freely around, and then you shove it on there. It's kind of a practice thing. And it's also, like. It's the same deal as, like, when you make crepes or something and you're flipping them, which feel like you have to do it with confidence. Like, you have to believe that you can do it, and then you just do it and don't, like. Because if you hesitate, that's when you mess up.

[Jon Becker]

See, this is. This is not a. Not a visual medium, but you're using, like, kind of a whoosh. Like. Yeah, but that's. I feel like that. That is.

[Megan Scott]

That is like a stabbing motion.

[Jon Becker]

That has screwed me up, though. I feel like, you know, you shuffle it on, you know, you just kind of like, you move it back and forth, and you're just kind of like.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you can do that. That's. I don't know. I, like. I do just fully go for it. Yeah. I feel like it does smell fear. Like, if you hesitate, it sticks. And then you. You're like, oh, crap. And then you mess up even more because you're, like, upset that it's not working.

[John Washington]

Shannon's nodding meaningfully.

[Shannon Larson]

I think you could. You could use a little bit more confidence in the kitchen. That's all. You know what you're doing.

[John Washington]

Yeah, I.

[Shannon Larson]

You got this.

[John Washington]

I mean, I agree. I understand. I. Yesterday, when I was making the pizzas, the. The quick rise dough that I did with active yeast, that one I part baked, and then I dressed the pizza, and that was easy. But the one where I was using the tartine recipe, I just. I. I tried to do what you're describing where I stretched it out and I used cornmeal.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[John Washington]

Which, yeah, cornmeal doesn't seem to Be working. I think you're right. Flour kind of creates more of a barrier and also dryness. Like it just dries out that bottom. I stretched it out, put it on the cornmeal, slid the pizza peel a couple of times. I'm. I'm good. And then I put the sauce and the cheese and the tomatoes on. It was a pizza margarita. And then I tried to slide. And the dough and the pizza peel were one item.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. If you let it sit. If you let the dough sit on there for any length of time, even the amount of time it takes to put the toppings on, it usually will like get a little like part of it will get sticky or stick on. So that's why after you do that, you still have to check again and then try to shove some flour under there. Like you just have to keep checking in with it. We got really into making pizza and so we did eventually buy. We have a outdoor pizza oven. It's like a propane fueled oven.

[Jon Becker]

Can use wood slash charcoal as well. Which I wrote a huge long thing about how that doesn't work out so well when you're trying to do it for a large party.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

We brought it to your birthday party and had to rent fuel it with charcoal, which means smoking up.

[Jon Becker]

Smoking out the entire party.

[John Washington]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

The pizza was so good though, I don't think anybody cared.

[Megan Scott]

A couple more notes I would say general pizza advice. Resist the urge to pile on toppings because it. The dough won't cook properly and it'll be floppy and wet and that's not nice. And then if you're trying to stretch or roll the dough out and it's really springy, just like let it rest for 10 minutes and then come back to it and try again. Cause it's not going to get any better the more you mess with it. Homemade pizza sauce. Super easy to make. Our recipe in the book just uses a can of whole tomatoes. You blend with a little bit of olive oil, basil and salt. Do not be tempted to add garlic. I know it seems like it would be a good idea, but it tastes weird for some reason that I don't understand. But it makes it taste a little skunky. I don't know. It's not good skunky. That's the best adjective I could think of. Finally, my last thing is I recommend using low moisture mozzarella instead of fresh. Because it does. There are some certain pizzas that are really good with fresh mozzarella. So I'm not hating on fresh, but I think it's a little too wet for most pizza and it's really easy to overdo it. And then your pizza again is going to be floppy.

[Jon Becker]

Prepping toppings so that they're either not too wet and also they're not going to be rendering a ton like, on the pizza. That's also a good idea. So, you know, part cooking your Italian sausage. Oh, yeah. Divide the labor. Everybody makes a big deal out of a pizza party where everybody can, you know, do the toppings and whatnot, that works out pretty good. But if you have like a pizza partner or maybe two people that you're just like, trading off duties with, especially if it's like an outdoor pizza oven, like, if, you know, you're probably going to need a break. Using an outdoor pizza oven in particular requires, like, undivided attention, like having being a little tipsy or having like a good conversation, like, while you're trying to watch the pizza. That's a recipe for a burnt pizza. So, you know, just being able to switch off with somebody and then also having like, some help with assembly with people that maybe aren't necessarily going to be like, ooh, well, maybe I'll try this and ooh, maybe I'll try that. And are taking like 10 minutes to assemble a piece pizza.

[Megan Scott]

That would be good, good advice. So on that note, this week's Joy Scouts recipe is the grandma style pan pizza on page 616. You'll be relieved to know that you don't need to have any skills with a pizza peel to make this pizza because it's on a sheet pan. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

You can basically disregard all the advice that we just gave you. Yeah, it is that simple. And it's, it's easy to do like a double recipe if you have a crowd. And however many racks you have in your oven, if you're willing to switch them around and, you know, turn the pizzas you can make, you can really scale it up.

[Shannon Larson]

And does one have any specific toppings on it?

[Jon Becker]

I mean, it's really a. It's really up to.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's kind of choose your own adventure. But you, you know, this is the basic recipe. Doesn't the basic recipe also have. Am I mixing this up with the other one where you put the sauce kind of on top of the cheese or partially.

[Jon Becker]

It's an option. You know, we just, just that. That is a thing and we just like, however you want to do it is. Is good. You know, there's no wrong answer, but.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's a little bit. The crust is a little Bit thicker. It's not like a deep dish, but it's a little thicker than your regular pie. And then you choose whatever toppings you want. And it's super easy to make and feeds a lot of people.

[Shannon Larson]

It's perfect. And we will agree the low moisture mozzarella is the way to go. After a lot of trial and error, I think. Yeah, we tried with the fresh. Just get the low.

[Megan Scott]

Seems like a good idea.

[Shannon Larson]

Well, it tastes great.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

But it's just a little moisture. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Little dollops of ricotta are nice sometimes.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

[Jon Becker]

But in conjunction with the low moisture mozzarella.

[Megan Scott]

If you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Sarah Marshall]

I move next to a shop that sells live crabs. How do I easily cook them?

[Jon Becker]

Oh, man, it's a good one.

[Megan Scott]

All right, everybody, what are you cooking this week?

[John Washington]

Pierogi night. Something that's happening.

[Shannon Larson]

Exclamation point.

[Megan Scott]

The threat of pierogies.

[John Washington]

I also think we're doing wings. Yeah, we just kind of every month or so have a night where we just want to have a ton of wings. And so, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on how to dry brine those and get those to a good spot. I like to bake them.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, they're really, really good.

[John Washington]

I'm. I'm feeling very conflicted about this, actually, because you can find recipes that'll tell you to go like, 350 really slow, and others where they're like, pump, crank that oven to 450 and just blast them for, like, 10 minutes. And that really is an upsetting direction to take. What temperature would you bake a wing at?

[Jon Becker]

I mean, I. I wouldn't blast them because you want. You want the connective tissue in the wings to kind of, you know, have a little time to mellow out. And you don't want those tips to burn. I mean, unless you're a monster and you get rid of the tips, which.

[Megan Scott]

I. Yeah, I don't know why people might do that.

[Jon Becker]

I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

That's my favorite part. Yeah, I think between the two.

[John Washington]

Okay, I see tips for stock. I don't. I remove those.

[Megan Scott]

Well, I mean, that's fine.

[Jon Becker]

I apologize.

[Megan Scott]

You're not a monster. They're my.

[Jon Becker]

Megan is. Yeah, Megan. Megan is partial to the tips. So we. We never get rid of those.

[Shannon Larson]

We Try it this time.

[Megan Scott]

They get very crispy.

[Shannon Larson]

John is also going to a pinball convention next weekend with our friend Derek. And so I will have the place to myself, which means I order in a ton of sushi and just sit and watch like When Harry Met sally for the 57th time.

[Megan Scott]

Can I come over?

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. It's the best.

[Megan Scott]

It's so great.

[Shannon Larson]

What about you two? What's on the menu?

[Megan Scott]

Well, I got some okra last week. End of last week, for John's party, I grilled some okra.

[Shannon Larson]

It was so good.

[Megan Scott]

Grilled. Oh, the grilled is excellent.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Can thank my colleague Laurel Randolph at Simply Recipes for that idea. But yeah, it's very simple. I just put them on skewers, grilled them plain, and then served it with a tahini sauce and some chili crisp. But then I had. I bought a lot of okra, didn't use it all. So I'm probably going to make mak chu this week, which is. It's like a Cajun, originally adapted from, like, indigenous food ways, but similar to succotash. So it's like corn, peppers, onion. Doesn't always have okra in it, but sometimes it does. And I think okra would be delicious in there. So I'm going to make that.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. And maybe serve it alongside some fried chicken.

[Megan Scott]

That's the plan. Fried chicken, chicken, biscuits, coleslaw, mak chou.

[Shannon Larson]

That sounds great. More okra.

[Megan Scott]

I love okra. I do, too. I grew up eating it, so I have nostalgic feelings about it. It's delicious.

[Jon Becker]

It's hard to grow here.

[Megan Scott]

That was going to be my project for the summer, but I'm. I don't think I'm gonna get to it. Oh, no. I've been doing a lot in the garden. I've been doing really well, but I. I don't have the setup. I don't have the infrastructure.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it needs a lot of heat.

[Megan Scott]

It needs heat.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram he joyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle crab. And don't forget to make this week's recipe grandma style pan pizza on page 616. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dreschke, our production coordinator, Hayley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our.

[Megan Scott]

Sam.