Kat Kinsman on Cooking With Ghosts

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast

Episode: Kat Kinsman on Cooking With Ghosts

Date: April 29, 2026
Host: Sarah Marcia (filling in for Shannon), Megan Scott, John Becker
Guest: Kat Kinsman (Executive Features Editor, Food & Wine; author; host of Tinfoil Swans)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast welcomes food journalist, author, and mental health advocate Kat Kinsman to the table. The hosts and Kat dig into everything from nostalgic foods and signature dishes to deep dives on kitchen mental health, the enduring presence of "Joy of Cooking," and how kitchen culture is transforming. Along the way, they swap stories of recipe experimentation (lasagna soup “lasagna,” anyone?), geek out on Twin Peaks, and offer creative ways to use up a gallon of maple syrup. The tone is warm, funny, candid, and gently nostalgic as the co-hosts and Kat reflect on legacies, personal connections, and food’s role as comfort and community.

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Key Discussion Points & Notable Moments

1. Weekly Cooking & Eating Updates (00:38-07:05)

• Sarah is obsessed with leeks: making hot sauce, braising, and topping fried toast, “leeks braised in cream on top of olive oil fried toast... I want to eat it every day.”
• Dirk’s Cincinnati Chili: Sarah recounts her husband’s precise recipe-following from the Joy of Cooking; John and Megan discuss the unusual technique (starting with simmered, not browned, meat).
  • “You know, doing a long simmering thing that does not start with sizzling the meats...it’s very counterintuitive.” – John (02:56)
• Clever leftover management: Megan and John remake lasagna soup back into baked lasagna.
• Joy Scouts recipe challenge: John meditatively carmelizes onions.
  • “You would think it’s like a super simple thing, but everybody has a different way of caramelizing onions.” – John (06:04)
  • See the caramelized onions recipe on pg. 255.

2. Kat Kinsman Enters the Chat (08:07)

• Cincinnati Chili Nostalgia: Kat reminisces on Northern Kentucky food (“three-way with onions”). “We served cheese coneys at our wedding.” (08:33)
• Kat recounts her go-to chicken with signature smoked paprika rub, now air-fried after her husband’s heart attack (“We had to completely throw the rule book out the window” – 09:45). Her rub is so popular she hands it out to family and friends.

3. Food Friends and Signature Dishes (12:04–26:12)

• “Our friends insist...we make giant batches of it...food friends are the best!” – Kat (12:04)
• Megan mentions John’s “table salsa,” made year-round from canned tomatoes, charred serranos and scallions.
• Kat describes her deep relationship with Joy of Cooking, collecting old editions and even contemplating the famous “squirrel in pajamas” tattoo. Describes writing a major Food & Wine feature on the book and visiting John and Megan to discuss cookbook legacy.
  • “It’s a book that makes me feel safe because I know how much rigor goes into it now and how much it always has.” (14:11)
• Cooking with Ghosts:
  • “You’re cooking alongside ghosts.” – Kat (18:31)
• The hosts reflect candidly on stewardship, balancing personality and “capital K knowledge,” and public awareness that real people make The Joy of Cooking.
• Kat’s “signature” meal for gatherings: smoked brisket with paprika rub, collard greens (inspired by Mama Diva), slaw, and cornbread (“If you ask me to bring something, I’m gonna say, I probably bring collard greens” – 25:03).
• Discussion of vegan collard recipes and “potlikker” swapping with friends of Korean background (“just goes on and on”).

4. Twin Peaks Fandom & Food (26:35–34:52)

• Both Kat and the hosts are Twin Peaks aficionados; Kat has a Black Lodge room (“you build the Black Lodge you want to see in the world” – 28:43).
• Dream of getting Kyle MacLachlan on the podcast (“He was so lovely...sent two blurbs for us to choose from!” – Megan, 27:01).
• Geek out on Twin Peaks podcasts, deep-cut character discussions, collecting wrapped-in-plastic magazines.
• Speculate why food people love Twin Peaks: diner culture, cherry pie, the symbolism of food as comfort amidst darkness.
  • “...the manifestation of pain and sorrow is creamed corn.” – Kat (31:34)
  • “The kitchen...handcrafting as this sticking to the core of Americana and truth.” – Kat (32:01)

5. Mental Health in the Kitchen & Restaurants (35:51–43:57)

• Kat’s advocacy work: founding Chefs with Issues, confronting “coming out” publicly about anxiety and depression.
  • “Within the first month...I learned of three different suicides. And I was thinking, that's...how many people that would be in a decade?” – Kat (36:42)
• Why kitchens attract neurodivergent people (“systems, you can get out of your head and into your body...you could find your place in the kitchen” – 38:24) but also foster unhealthy coping (late hours, alcohol/drug culture).
• Landscape is changing (“Now there’s so much more light and hope than there was when I started talking about this openly” – 40:43).
• Shout-outs to Southern Smoke Foundation, Ben’s Friends, and others.
• Kat receives thanks for helping kids and adults feel less alone.
  • “Even just, you know, my daughter has ADHD and anxiety, and anytime she hears anybody else mention that, she just...smiles.” – Sarah (42:06)
  • “I'm 53. It is not going to be the stigma that it would have been when I was growing up. Thank you for being part of the change.” – Kat (43:38)

6. How Diners Can Support Kitchen Workers (43:57–47:05)

• Suggestions: support restaurants involved in advocacy and those with long-serving, happy staff; look for service fees used for staff welfare.
• Support both new places and “stalwart” long-standing places in your city.
  • “People wanting to stick around is a really huge thing.” – Kat (46:08)
• Drop-in: Portland local favorites (“Fried Egg I’m in Love,” “Ox”).
  • “Great for them. But I want an egg sandwich!” – Megan (47:39)

7. Caller Question: What to Do with a Gallon of Maple Syrup? (49:13–58:35)

• Creative uses:
  • Make it spicy and shelf-stable by adding vinegar and dried chilies (Sarah, 51:18)
  • Party solution: “Having a gallon of maple syrup is a perfect excuse to have a party...Make it the theme of the entire thing...Maple syrup hot pot...fondue/fountain for dipping sausages, corn dogs, pancakes.” – Kat (53:03, 54:12)
  • Use in candies, glaze meats (ham/chicken/salmon), “switchel” (old-timey Gatorade), roasted vegetables.
  • Vegan baked goods as they use lots of maple syrup.
  • Maple syrup pie (recipe of the week, pg. 678): “based on Four and Twenty Blackbirds’ salty honey pie...use maple instead of honey and add flaky salt” (58:08)
• Pro tips: Don’t can with maple syrup (“cannot replace sugar in your favorite jam recipe”), it isn’t acidic enough. Always refrigerate open maple syrup as it can mold.

8. Vintage Joy Editions & Collections (58:54–60:42)

• Caller: “Are there editions that are hard to find or extra rare?”
  • Kat, Megan, and John discuss vintage editions, “goth edition,” comb-bound bootlegs, and the importance of heirloom copies.

9. What Are You Cooking This Week? (60:42–64:32)

• Kat: Lots of cod for heart-healthy eating, experimenting with new spice blends, and raves about Rocco DeSpirito’s pesto rosso (“I basically need to harangue the man until I can get the recipe” – 62:09)
• John: Baked cod with potatoes and onions with miso butter (“Cod’s just a great canvas. A red pesto sounds delicious.”)
• Sarah: Recipe testing, making strawberry rhubarb ghost hot sauce and the return of her chimichurri now that spring herbs are abundant.
• Lovage exchange: “That’s the gateway dish for lovage!” – John; “You let me know, I need a lot!” – Sarah

10. Where to Find Kat Kinsman & Closing Thoughts (64:39–65:15)

• Follow Kat at @Katkinsman, listen to Tinfoil Swans, read her at Food & Wine.
• Kat: “Just love to talk with lovely folks like you...I just have a million things I want to make.” (64:39)

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Notable Quotes

• “You’re cooking alongside ghosts.” – Kat Kinsman (18:31)
• “It’s a book that makes me feel safe because I know how much rigor goes into it.” – Kat (14:11)
• “I was thinking about how so many of the food people I know and love the most are also Twin Peaks fans...” – Megan (30:58)
• “Within the first month...I learned of three different suicides.” – Kat, on chef mental health (36:42)
• “If you ask me to bring something, I’m gonna say, I probably bring collard greens.” – Kat (25:03)
• “Having a gallon of maple syrup is a perfect excuse to throw a party...Make it the theme of the entire thing.” – Kat (53:03)
• “People wanting to stick around is a really huge thing.” – Kat, about restaurants with happy staff (46:08)
• “Cod’s just a great canvas. A red pesto sounds delicious.” – John (63:09)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start | End | |-----------------------------------------------|---------|---------| | Hosts’ weekly eats & kitchen tales | 00:38 | 07:05 | | Guest intro & Cincinnati Chili chat | 08:07 | 10:45 | | Pantry friends, Joy’s legacy, cookbook feels | 12:04 | 26:12 | | Twin Peaks, food, and symbolism | 26:35 | 34:52 | | Mental health in restaurants, Chefs with Issues| 35:51 | 43:57 | | How eaters can help kitchen culture | 43:57 | 47:05 | | Maple syrup party strategies (caller Q&A) | 49:13 | 58:35 | | Vintage Joy editions & collecting | 58:54 | 60:42 | | What’s cooking next week | 60:42 | 64:32 | | Kat’s handles & signoff | 64:39 | 65:15 |

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Further Info & Episode Links

• Joy of Cooking Instagram: @thejoyofcooking
• Kat Kinsman: @Katkinsman, Tinfoil Swans Podcast
• Chef Mental Health Resources: Southern Smoke Foundation, Ben’s Friends
• This Week’s Recipe: Maple Syrup Pie (Joy of Cooking, pg. 678)
• Submit Questions: Call or text 503-395-8858

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This summary brings together the episode’s warmth, humor, and depth—offering a delicious blend of recipe exploration, cultural deep-dives, heartbreak and hope in kitchens, and the enduring “joy” of connecting through food.

Transcript

[A]

Sa.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of Joy of Cooking. We talk kitchen victories and misadventures and what we are cooking and eating right now. Thanks for joining us at the table today. I'm Sarah Marcia, filling in for Shannon today. I'm the owner of Marshall's Hot Sauce and producer of this podcast. And I'm loving everything leaks things this week, I'm brazing them, I'm cooking them, making hot sauce with them. All leaks all the time.

[C]

Heck yeah. I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish Judy by night. And last night I ate a bowl of soup with a knife and fork.

[D]

Truth. I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And if you want to lull me into a liminal state of teary eyed contemplation, all you need to do is set down a sack of onions in front of me and maybe give me a sharp knife too.

[C]

What would you do without the knife?

[D]

Juggle. I guess I wouldn't be very contemplative. I don't know, you probably get some nice, you know, Zen moment in while you're juggling.

[A]

Can you juggle?

[D]

I cannot.

[A]

I can't either. My uncle one time told me when

[C]

I was a kid he'd pay me

[A]

$50 if I learned how to juggle and I never did it.

[C]

Yes. Knew you weren't, I knew you weren't gonna do that.

[A]

Right. I just don't have that skill when

[D]

the stakes are that high. Understand why you would just maybe have some problems.

[A]

Yeah. Just not good at it.

[C]

What have you been eating and cooking this week, Sarah?

[A]

Well, we've been cooking all kinds of things. I think you guys know because Dirk tagged you on Instagram, but he made your Cincinnati chili from the cookbook. He's super excited about it. You can see him dancing over there.

[B]

He loved it.

[A]

He, I, he got like very excited about making it and then he wanted to eat it all the ways that you guys suggest. So, you know, on hot dogs, on spaghetti, all the things. And we've never had Cincinnati chili before. I don't know if that's just something that Pacific Northwest people don't know about or.

[C]

Yeah, I think probably not.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, welcome.

[A]

Thank you. It was fun. It was fun and interesting. Dirk did read the recipe about 100 times. Which he always does. He's like a very good recipe follower, which is why he's a really great recipe tester. But he kept saying, are you sure? I just boil the meat? And I think he even texted you, John, and was like, are you sure?

[D]

Yeah. You know, doing a long simmering thing that does not start with sizzling the meats or even browning vegetables. It's very counterintuitive.

[A]

We're just not used to it.

[D]

Yeah, I blame the French. They have really wormed their way into our heads, I guess.

[C]

Yeah, you don't have to brown meat all the time. Sometimes you can just boil it and it's fine or good even.

[D]

Don't say boil.

[C]

It's simmer.

[D]

Lazily simmer. Maybe a bubble.

[C]

Burbling a burble.

[A]

Well, it turned out great. So we did. Definitely made that. And then I went on the news, the local news show, to talk about what's at the farmers market. So I bought all these leaks because that's kind of what's growing. And then I had a lot of leaks to deal with. So I did a few different leak recipes. And then I saw you guys were making this olive oil fried toast, and I was like, I'm gonna do that. And leeks braised in cream on top of olive oil fried toast is like, I want to eat it every day. I might die because it's, like, too decadent. But it was so delicious. So recipes up on my website, I put some of our bird's eye basil hot sauce in there, which was really nice. Like, a nice addition of acidity into it. So we ate that a lot. Because I was, you know, and anytime I'm recipe testing, we have to eat things, like, 20 times, like, until I'm sick of it, you know, and then I don't eat it again for, like, another year. And then I'll go back to our website, and I'll be like, oh, yeah, I remember that recipe. Now I can eat it again. So that's what I've been doing with leaks.

[C]

Yeah, leaks.

[D]

I.

[C]

What did I make with leaks recently? Oh, yeah, I made a leek and potato tart. So, like, kind of like a quiche, but leeks and potatoes.

[D]

Yeah. I think you were just using up some melted leeks that we had for doing pizza. It was a good second life.

[C]

Good reuse. Second life. Speaking of second life, second lives for leftovers, please describe what you what you had for lunch.

[D]

Well, you were testing a lasagna soup recipe, and then it was stuck around for a few days, and we're like, what do we do with this? It's like, oh, well, let's turn it back into lasagna. So it's lasagna soup. Lasagna.

[C]

Because we turned it back into a baked thing because the noodles absorbed all the liquid. So it was really stodgy. And I was like, I don't want to add more liquid to this. So we just put it in a baking dish and put some dollops of ricotta on there and some mozzarella and parmesan and baked it. That was delicious.

[A]

Reverse engineering.

[C]

And then I was like, today I was like, you should have turned it back into soup so it would have been las. Lasagna soup. Lasagna soup.

[D]

Yeah. How many times can we reverse, you know? Yeah, until.

[A]

Do it. Until it's gone.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It definitely falls into the category of things that, you know, you make crispy and then you make soggy. I don't know. There's something very similar situation going on.

[C]

Yeah, I know you like that. John also made the Joy Scouts recipe of the week today. Tell us about it. How was it?

[D]

Yes, they caramelized onions. So that's the reference to the sack of onions and being teary eyed and contemplative. That was me. It was glorious.

[C]

Did you enjoy doing that? Did you get into a meditative state?

[D]

I just had. I had some alone time. But, you know, I didn't get to the meditative state because I was taking notes on things that I maybe want to tweak about that recipe. You would think it's like a super simple thing, but everybody has a different way of caramelizing onions.

[C]

Well, can I ask for spoilers? Like what, what do you want to change about it?

[D]

Towards the end, they weren't appropriately just dark. And so I think that we just need to put some, you know, it's like, hey, if you would like to get them darker than they are, then maybe, you know, just cook off the liquid that you've deglazed the pan with and then you can just get them browner again and then deglaze again and you know, repeat as necessary until you get that nice mahogany, you know, color.

[C]

Sounds good.

[D]

Yeah. After an hour of stirring onions, maybe that's a big ask.

[A]

Those people stop. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

On the other hand, whether they're caramelized or not, if you spend that much time doing it and it's not looking like the caramel that you had envisioned, then maybe you just keep going.

[C]

That recipe is on page 255. If you make caramelized onions and want to share with us, please tag us at the Joy of Cooking on Instagram. We would love to see what you make. Irma Rombauer believed that cooking should be joyful, and that philosophy changed the way America eats. Her great nephew Kerner carried that same joy and generosity to Napa Valley, founding Rombauer Vineyards in 1980. The winery was built on the same belief that made the cookbook a classic, that good food and wine should bring people together. And just as the joy of cooking has been in American kitchens for nearly a century, today Rombauer is one of California's most celebrated wineries and the perfect pairing for every meal you cook. From the book, your next favorite pairing is [e-mail] joy use code joypod. That's J, O, Y, P O, D. All caps for 15% off your order. That's R O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy and use code joypod at checkout.

[E]

Must be 21 to enjoy.

[C]

We'd like to welcome Kat Kinsman to the table. Kat Kinsman is the Executive features editor at Food and Wine, author of High Anxiety, Life with a Bad Case of Nerves, and host of Food and Wine's podcast, Tinfoil Swans. Kat, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hello there. I'm absolutely delighted, and I'm now starving because you were talking about one of my favorite foods in the entire world, Cincinnati chili. Oh, yeah.

[C]

How do you like yours?

[B]

Three way with onions. Oh, yeah. I grew up in Northern Kentucky, and I mean, I love this stuff so much. We served it. We served cheese coneys at our wedding.

[C]

Amazing.

[B]

I am all here for the Cincinnati chili diaspora going across the country.

[C]

Remind me, does the three way include the kidney beans?

[B]

No. So. So there's. I want to make sure I get this straight. There's the two way with this. Just the chili or a three way.

[C]

Huh?

[B]

Three way has the cheese, but you have to specify what that other thing is. It was with onions, so you have to kind of like call out what it is. I think if you're doing a four way, you wouldn't necessarily have to specify the onions or the beans, but I'm not remembering exactly.

[C]

Do you?

[D]

You know, it's been a while since I've actually been inside of a skyline chili parlor, which is.

[C]

It's really, really sad to admit you're a lapsed Cincinnatian.

[D]

Well, you know, we were in Florida pretty recently, and I guess that we were close, really close to some, like, locations of some skyline locations. And we did not. We did not go out of our way to go there, but we should have. Oh, well.

[C]

Yeah. Well, Kat, what have you been cooking and eating this week that you're excited about?

[B]

Oh, this week has been a very strange week. It's a little bit me getting home from work late, being stuck on the subway kind of thing. So it's been more assemblage of things this week. My husband is at his swing dance class tonight, so I. I fully admit that I had Brie, Triscuits, and hummus for dinner tonight, so there was not a lot of cooking going on. I think we got takeout last night, but generally speaking, do a fair amount of cooking, and we've had. Which we've had to change a lot over the past year and a half after my husband had a heart attack a year and a half ago. So we had to completely throw the rule book out the window and. And change. So it's been a lot of chicken that has. We. We grill it. This weekend, we were in upstate New York, where it was snowing, so we decided to air fry that instead with this rub that we usually do on the grill and, you know, get it really crispy. Do this. This rub that has a smoky and sweet paprika in there. Salt. Let me see if I can get this. All celery seed, onion powder, garlic powder, brown sugar, and it's like a beautiful thing. Rub the chicken in that. And we usually serve it over top of, like, a bunch of chopped chicories and things and sometimes some roasted potatoes. But the particular thing is my husband's last name is Wagner, and he grew up with the nickname Wag a trip for wagamof Ing trip. And so it's wagatrip and chicken, which entails then having this, like, juicy, like, rubbed chicken over top of these greens. And our friends insist on that. We make giant batches of it. So that was kind of the weekend project. Delicious.

[D]

Yeah. No, it sounds really good.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We're really into the chicken chicory salad situation. Yeah.

[D]

And that's in a sweet smoked paprika type rub. It's for sure, like, a comfort flavor for me for some reason.

[C]

Yeah. I feel like if you can't get. Especially if you can't get outside to grill and then get that smoky flavor on there, the smoked paprika is really the way to go. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We.

[B]

I mean, this has become a stable. We make this. This rub by the giant batch, and then I give it out to friends.

[C]

That's a great idea, actually, is that you're like casual. I'm coming over to your house. Here's a small gift.

[B]

It's sort of more like the friends who we cook with most often are basically family. And so we're always just like eating at each other's houses. And so I'll just be like, ah, here's a thing of rub. And you know my friend Jen, her, she comes back from Korea with like some marinades that her mom has made and things like that. So we're always just giving each other food all the time.

[C]

I love that food. Friends are the best.

[B]

Oh, they truly are.

[A]

Do you guys feel like there's a dish that your friends always want you to make when you come over?

[C]

John's salsa is very popular. His signature salsa recipe.

[D]

Yeah, I was drawing a blank, but I guess that does get requested every now and then.

[C]

Everyone really loves it. You can take the compliment. It's fine.

[D]

Okay. I don't have a page number, but it's definitely in the book.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What's it called?

[A]

Table.

[C]

Table Salsa. I think so. And it is made. We talked with our producer Dirk last week about this, but it is made with canned tomatoes, which he was surprised about.

[D]

Dirk was a little taken aback by that, which, you know, I understand.

[C]

But it's not like a pico de gallo. It's not as chunky, but it's got a really great flavor. And it's really nice because you can make it year round when the tomatoes aren't so great.

[D]

Yeah. And some charred serrano and habanero. And you take the bottoms of scallions, you char those and pan roasted quote unquote garlic. So basically a few cloves charred. Yeah, it's delicious.

[C]

And Kat, something we ask all of our guests, what is your relationship to the Joy of Cooking?

[B]

Well, as it happens, the first major feature that I wrote for Food and Wine was about the joy of cooking. Because I was lucky enough that actually that was before I even started working at Food and Wine. I was working at one of our sister brands, but it had just been in my soul for a really long time. I have various copies of it that I didn't grow up with it, but I think I was given it when I went off to. I'm pretty sure it was actually grad school. Not even college, but grad school. I have that edition here. I have six different editions sitting next to me, some of which came from my mother in law, who if she were still alive, would be over 100 years old. I have others that I collected while I was writing a story. About the two of you. So our origin story, if I may say. We were at the IACP symposium one year and we ended up sitting on the floor of I think an abandoned ballroom or some sort of empty room. And you started telling me about your story together and how you sort of the things that people wouldn't necessarily know about how you took up the mantle of this long standing, you know, family tradition and then how the two of you fell in love and that there was a beautiful story behind it. And you were kind enough to let me to work on this story with you and help get it into food and wine. So the thing that had been really sparking in my soul for such a long time just absolutely ignited and I got to come to Portland, spend time with the two of you and really delve into all these different editions and what they have meant to people throughout the years and starting and asking people about their origin stories with it. And nobody's neutral on it whatsoever. Everybody has it in their home somehow. Like, you know, it's. I don't want to say it's like furniture, but I love furniture. So I will say that because I'm very deliberate in thinking about my furniture. It's. It's a book that makes me feel safe because I know how much rigor goes into it now and how much it always has. If I am fact checking something that is one of the sources I use for absolute reference because I know it is vetted over the course of decades. I love collecting copies where people have written in the margins and have, you know, things you've shown me, your collection of these that people have sent back to you as maybe as somebody is nearing the end of their life or maybe it was in their estate or something, but they really matter. And I've contemplated over the years getting you guys actually put this into my head, a tattoo of the squirrel with the pajamas coming off. But so I, you know, I have all of these additions in various states of repair and disrepair and, and all of that. The one hole in, in my life with this is that I did not buy myself a copy. The goth edition of it. That was.

[C]

I felt certain that you, that you were going to buy that when it was around.

[B]

Somehow I don't remember how I ended up. I'm going to hunt it down one of these days, but it's. I have given it to so many people. The addition, the most recent addition that the two of you did, I have given it to grand nieces and I should give it to the grand nephew too. I Don't know how much he cooks, but he should. And give it to people as they're embarking because it's never gonna get old. It's never gonna not be relevant. I wrote a thing today about Jacques Pepin's LA technique, and he was saying, like, it doesn't matter how long it's been out, those techniques remain the same. And I think of it past, present, future, heirloom. And it's. I don't know, I get really emotional about it and especially because I've come to love you guys so much.

[C]

Oh, thank you so much. I love that your story and it was so amazing to be able to talk to you for that story. And also, you know, everything we do with this book is like a mixture of love and, like, excitement and also, I don't want to say fear, because that's really negative, but also like, nervousness, because there is that sense of responsibility that we have that we really want to be there for our readers and we don't want to lead them astray. And we take that really, really seriously. So it kind of guides everything we do, which can sometimes, I think, is ultimately good, but can sometimes be a little anxiety inducing.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you're cooking alongside ghosts.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely.

[D]

Well, and I think that, like, when we first started talking, I think that was the first IACP conference that we had gone to and we had basically been kind of squirreled, speaking of squirreled away with joy, for many years. And so it was definitely like, we needed to share at that point.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think also it really meant a lot to me to realize that there were people behind it, you know, that it wasn't. Because I think of it as this larger than life entity. And, you know, and I knew some about it because obviously there's names on it, but I was so surprised to meet you and realize that this is this living and breathing and beautiful and ongoing thing, you know, And I. I have to say, one of the most emotional moments that I've had over the past, you know, bunch of years was getting that new edition of it and flipping it over and you'd been kind enough to put my name in the acknowledgments. And like, that. That just hit me so hard to know that I was getting to be part of this. This thing that is, you know, I think I text you sometimes when I see it in the background of a TV show.

[C]

Yes, I love it when you text me. Never, never stop texting me when you see it.

[B]

The most recent one was shrinking, I believe and because it's just. I can spot it from so far away across the room, like, whether I'm in a restaurant, somebody's house, if I'm seeing it as. As part of set design on. On something, because I'm always looking in the background to see what cookbooks are on the shelf. It's like. It's compulsive. At this point, we. Well, the thing is, like, you know, you're probably going to see yours.

[C]

Yeah. Do they have Joy of Cooking there? No. Well, we can stop watching. No, I'm kidding.

[B]

Not really.

[A]

I think that's one of the reasons why I love doing this podcast, too, though, is because I think every time I talk to somebody about it, people are like, wait, the people that write Joy of Cooking live here? Or they know you? Or how are you involved? Like, there's always this process of, like, explaining that you are to people that have written this cookbook. Like, they. It gets lost a lot of times in translation. I'm like, yeah, and listen to the podcast. You're going to find out so much about them and what they do and who they are and the recipes that they love. And so then they do, and then they feel super connected to you guys, which I think that that part gets lost sometimes, you know, with it just being, like, the Joy of Cooking, you know?

[C]

Yeah, it definitely does. And that's been kind of a hard thing to overcome. In some ways, I think it's good that we don't have this personality behind the book and that the book can just exist and, like, bring people joy and help them cook delicious food for themselves and their families. And, like, there's no kind of associated personality or, like, baggage with it. But also, I think sometimes it leads people to think it's like, this faceless entity and there's nobody really. Like, it's a corporate project or whatever. And so it's like a fine balance of trying to put ourselves out there just enough. But, like, we don't necessarily want to be. I mean, we couldn't be Ina Garten, but we, you know, don't want to be.

[D]

No. I think a part of it's kind of the result of having Irma, who was definitely an extrovert and wanted to put as much personality as she could into the cookbook. But then also it's a product of Marian, who really wanted to kind of step back and, you know, provide as much useful, you know, reference information as possible. So you end up with this kind of interesting mixture of cute asides, but then also, like, Straight up research. Capital K knowledge.

[C]

Yeah. And then we're both certainly introverts. So there's that. There's that piece.

[B]

But I love, though, that in this edition, I can look through and find, like, Easter eggs that are, you know, there's some twin peak stuff. I love seeing those things that are, you know, these big institutions. And then finding out, like, oh, my gosh, is it's empowering to find out that there are people too behind all of these things. It's magic.

[C]

And then another thing that we always ask our guests, Kat, is what is your signature dish?

[B]

So I was thinking about this, and I don't know if it's so much signature because it's sort of more of a combination of things that I make. But I'm thinking about I cooked for a bunch of people on my 50th birthday and thought, like, what are the dishes that I feel most confident in that I'm happy and joyful to share? That is, like, kind of things where maybe it came into my life through either a cookbook or a friend or something like that. So I would say the combination of a smoked shoulder or brisket, like, I am at my most meditative, happy, calm. And this is a lot for an anxious person like me when I am tending a smok and I have a giant chunk of meat in there, ideally bone in. And with that same rub I was talking about earlier. And I have that in there, and I have it along with. I make really good collard greens that I originally learned from this woman, Dr. Ellen Robinson, who we had called Mama Diva as well. And she went through a lot of names. My friend Erica introduced me to her a million years ago, and she fed me greens for the first time. And I had Thanksgiving with. With Eric and her and our friend Lisa and Eric's husband John, for well over a decade and a half or something like that. And watched her make these greens, and, like, they're smoky and beautiful, and I've just. They're never the same, you know, two times in a row. But so people sort of asked me to bring that as well. And I'll usually have this, you know, with a slaw of some sort. And cocktails are very much part of this as well. I make bourbon slush. You'll be able to see the recipe in the May issue of Food and Wine. And it's the thing from my Kentucky heritage, actually Northern Kentucky, because it was very much like a house party kind of thing. And, you know, a lot of these are dishes where I, you know, I Used to throw a big Kentucky Derby party every year for years and years. So a lot of it. You know, these are the things that rotate through that. There's some pimento cheese. I didn't grow up with a huge amount of food culture myself, necessarily in our house, but we picked it all up from cookbooks. So it's a little bit from here, a little bit from there. But if you ask me to bring something, I'm gonna say, I probably bring collard greens.

[C]

Nice. That's also. I feel like you were just reciting the dishes that I make when I'm cooking for people, and I'm like, here's my cornbread. Here's my collard greens.

[B]

Oh, my God. Like, that sounds like the meal in the world. Like that, you know, really. It really does. And, you know, I. I. Now we have a tradition. These same friends I cook with, I bring over the collard greens to them. And then my friend Jen likes to make sure she has all of the extra pot liquor and stuff like that. And then she. She grew up in Korea, and so we spend a lot of time talking about the intersection of, like, that and Korean food and stuff. So she's gonna then take it and put some kimchi in it and some eggs and things. And it's just kind of this thing that is. It just goes on and on. I've made it. I usually do a smoked kind of meat. After the heart attack, I started doing it more with smoked turkey. I've made it vegan before for a neighbor and try to figure out how to get the smoke and the umami in there and stuff.

[C]

Oh, have you tried Aaron Hutcherson's recipe? Aaron Hutcherson.

[B]

Love that man.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Formerly of Washington Post, but has an amazing recipe for vegan collards that actually just. They taste great. They taste great. Yeah. They can stand on their own for sure.

[B]

Oh, I'm definitely gonna look that up because I love that man. I love how he. He cooks, and I need to try that.

[C]

We. So you mentioned Twin Peaks earlier. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, try. Try to help me. Not.

[C]

I just gotta. Just gotta go straight to Twin Peaks. My. My goal for season three of this podcast, which I haven't told Sarah or Dirk yet, is to get comic glass.

[B]

I am actually trying to work on that on your behalf.

[C]

Really?

[A]

I mentioned a dream come true for all of us.

[B]

Fingers crossed, because I want him to come on tinfoil swans. But also he has a memoir coming out later this year.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So he's very close friends with our executive wine editor Ray Isle.

[A]

Who?

[B]

One of my favorite humans, and they do a lot of stuff together. I had the pleasure of getting hammered with Kyle one afternoon. It was supposed to be interviewing him. The bar was so loud, I ended up not being able to use the audio. But he's so kind and so just exactly who you want him to be, and I bet you anything you'll be able to get him on.

[C]

Well, I did get him to blurb the 2019 edition, and he was so lovely. He was just like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm. I'm actually filming something in Europe right now, but is it okay if I get this to you by Monday? And I was like, are you like, yes. Whatever you need, whatever I can do to make this happen is fine. And then he sent me two blurbs to choose from. Like, pick your favorite. I was like, I can't speak.

[A]

I want them all.

[C]

Yeah,

[D]

I feel like he had one that was very, you know, insider y Twin Peaksy y. And then the publisher, like, kind of balked at that for some reason. Or like, oh, no, we can't use that. We need to respect Kyle and use the very straight laced endorsement.

[C]

But we can get him on the podcast maybe, and then we can talk about whatever we want. That's true.

[B]

I will say. I mean, I will fully admit that I turned an entire room of my house into the Black Lodge from Twin Peaks.

[C]

So this is one of my favorite facts about you.

[B]

If you go back through my Instagram reels, I think I have a video up there. Like a little tour around the room. It's forever evolving in there.

[A]

And.

[B]

And it's like a chevron rug and there are red draperies and stuff. It's my happiest place in the world. There is a coffee cup that Ray had him sign for me and just, like, little bits of ephemera. I mean, my husband and I, we don't have kids. We don't have to make anybody else happy but ourselves. So, you know, you build the Black Lodge you want to see in the world.

[A]

I feel like we're kindred spirits because our houses, we have lots of hidden Twin Peaks things. We also have a Lost Boys lounge downstairs. But when Dirk and I were in college, we had a radio show that we played goth music, and it was called the Black Lodge. So maybe we can get Kyle on with that. You are the hook.

[C]

We've got it. We've got it.

[B]

You are my people.

[C]

So you've also been on the Twin Peaks podcast, Cream Corn in the Universe.

[B]

They would love for you to be a guest too. So I did an episode like the host is this amazing man. And we actually, it got cut down to about two hours, but I think we talked for six hours about Kristen Hayward, who I think was on screen for maybe 16 minutes total throughout all three seasons. And then I have to figure out how to make time to sort of like rewatch and make sure. But I'm going to go back on and talk about Carl Rod, who is truly one of my favorite characters throughout the whole thing and has so much deep lore throughout all of the supplemental materials. But like, that was like one of the greatest joys and privileges that I have gotten to have. I mean, the sun went down while we were talking, talking about Gersten Hayward for so long.

[D]

I feel like I'm gonna have to study up before we get on this podcast.

[C]

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm sure there'll be a topic in one.

[D]

I mean, supplemental materials. I'm sadly ignorant of these. I need to see the case. See Laura Palmer's case file.

[A]

We have all the wrapped in plastic magazines so you can read up on them.

[D]

Oh, nice.

[B]

And there's a brand new book that just came out place both wonderful and strange that I, I think we're going to listen to in the car on audiobook. And gosh, it just makes me so happy that other people care so, so deeply about this because, you know, it's powerful art.

[C]

It is powerful art. And I was gonna. I'm not sure how to like, phrase the question, but I was kind of thinking about like so many of. I feel like quite a few of the food people I know and love the most are also Twin Peaks fans. And I'm like, what is it about this show? Because it's not a food show. I mean, it's, it's like a tragedy. And an famously, in a tragedy, there's no eating. But there is eating in Twin Peaks, which I feel like is maybe one of the things that kind of drew me in. It's just like small town America, diner culture, cherry pie, coffee, creamed corn. I don't know, like what's going on?

[D]

Disappearing. Disappearing. Creamed corn. Yeah.

[B]

Garman, Bozilla. Also in this place upstate where I've made the Black Lodge, there are black chalkboard walls in the kitchen and they're point to sugar pointing to salt, and then one is pointing to Garmonbozia and it is pointing to a can of creamed corn. But I mean, I love the notion of like the manifestation of pain and sorrow is creamed Corn.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, my goodness. And I mean, I. I think that the contrast in a lot of the tones there and stuff was by virtue of the dual nature of the creatorship there with Mark Frost and David Lynch. And I'm never entirely sure who was which particular thing. You know, I think that Agent Cooper as the self insert of David lynch expressing his particular joys in the small, weird pleasures of life that gave him a voice to say how much he loves coffee or stop and love something as mundane and absolutely perfect as cherry pie or something like that. And there's this scene later on when they're trying to get Norma to pull back on what she's doing with the pie recipe and she refuses to sell out in a corporate kind of way. I think that he's using these values of the handcrafting as this, you know, sticking to the core of Americana and truth and. Right. Which is sometimes warped but, you know, sometimes pure and beautiful.

[C]

Yeah, I was kind of thinking about how so much of that show is like, the contrast between this vision of this ultimately really beautiful and special, like, small town that, you know, I think David lynch apparently had, like, some fascination with, like, small town America and how it's like this quaint place with the sweet little diner and the beautiful, delicious cherry pie, but underneath it all is this, you know, kind of nightmare, which I'm very drawn to.

[A]

That duality.

[D]

Well, yeah, that's just the opening sequence of Blue Velvet of. Kind of gets into that. That very dynamic that you're talking about. It's just, you know, kind of a.

[C]

Roses and picket fences and.

[D]

And then just a bunch of insects crawling around in the. In the. In the grass.

[B]

But I'm also, if I can just hit on one more food point, sorry, like, dorky about this, but I think of how they were trying to show this duality of Laura and what she. She was still trying to cling to. And she was delivering Meals on Wheels to homebound people and had this moment where, you know, she had this, you know, terrifying moment where Bob came forward and, you know, and I think maybe this is one of the times when the Chalfonts were like, in the parking lot or something like that. There was a vision that she was about to go and deliver a huge quantity of food to people and she was getting all these meals together and this is her trying to cling onto to those still the Homecoming queen parts of her and still trying to, like, bring that out to the world. I just, you know, to me, like the. Except for garment bouzille, the Food is pretty pure.

[C]

So Rombauer Vineyards is sponsoring today's episode. And honestly, I've been wanting to talk about them because they just released a fresh vintage of their Sauvignon Blanc, and it's quickly become my go to white wine as we head into the warmer months. Months. It's refreshing and vibrant, exactly what you want when the sun is out. I've been having it with asparagus with orange and hazelnuts, and, I mean, it just works perfectly.

[D]

And okay, if you're planning on firing up the grill soon, let me tell you about their Zinfandels. They just released their 2023 vintage, and it's bold, juicy, and has real depth. The kind of wine that just belongs with good food and good company. Something like grilled marinated octopus with shaved fennel and white bean salad. Solid comes to mind, but it's so versatile.

[C]

Head to rombauer.com joy and use code joypod. That's J O Y-P O D. All caps for 15 off. That's R-O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy and use code joyPod at checkout.

[E]

Must be 21 to enjoy.

[C]

I did have other non Twin Peaks questions. Actually, the smallest this question. But I knew we could talk about it forever. I wanted to talk a bit about your mental health advocacy. Like, you've written a book about your own anxiety, but you also talk to a lot of chefs about mental health in restaurant kitchens and the whole culture of restaurant kitchens. Why are restaurants in particular need of attention when it comes to mental health, do you think?

[B]

Oh, my gosh, so much has changed over the past decade since I, you know, I've been talking about it for longer than a decade. But I went public with a project called Chefs with issues in 2016 because I've been pretty open about my own struggles with mental health. Back when I was working at cnn, I wrote some stories about depression and anxiety, and it was, you know, I think of it almost as like a coming out, like, to admit publicly that I, you know, dealt with mental health issues, you know, pervasive throughout my whole life. But I was also the food editor at, at cnn, and so it kind of made me a safe person to talk to about things. So I would be interviewing somebody, and, you know, we would break and they would say, like, hey, actually, can I talk to you about something? And it just started happening a lot. And I, you know, I was really honored and touched to be trusted like that. And then I just started hearing it more than half the time. And so I put a survey up online, bought a domain name, put a survey up online, and got thousands of responses to it. And then within the first month or so of it, I learned of three different suicides. And I was thinking that's. I started mathing that out, like, how many people that would be in a year, in a decade, like, just. And thinking about, okay, these are ones that have bubbled to the surface. How many have we not heard about? And then people started just, like, really coming out of the woodwork. And so I started talking to more people about it. And then, you know, a year and a half into this or two years, like Anthony Bourdain took his own life. And then suddenly, just everything exploded and the conversation really, really opened up because so many people were in pain. And to me, it's always been a chicken and egg kind of situation that people who didn't necessarily come from stable backgrounds or, you know, struggled with issues like so many of us do, where sometimes it's really hard, hard to live a life like other people do, because maybe it's hard to leave the house, maybe it's hard to wake up, maybe it's hard to function. And the kitchen, for all of the difficult things about it, can also be a really accepting place of different brains. And I talk with so many chefs about how being in the kitchen was actually perfect for their ADHD or for their anxiety or for their OCD or something like that, because it's systems and you can get out of your head and into your body when you're doing these things. And, you know, you're. You maybe have different hours than, you know, a nine to five kind of job. And so it really, you know, so long as you could do the work, a lot of the time, you could find your place in the kitchen. Granted, there are so many systemic issues in people who were never made to feel right and comfortable in restaurants and stuff, but it is a place that is more accepting of neuroatypical brains than most places. On the flip side, a lot of the. This can come with its own problems and difficulties, and maybe people who were growing up on the fringes didn't necessarily develop the most healthy coping mechanisms, these kitchen jobs. And they don't pay very well. They don't have access to mental health care, usually through insurance and stuff. There are so many more advocacy groups now. This has been a huge change over the past decade that now there's. There are so many more resources. People are actually talking about these issues and Taking care of one another and not afraid and not just like saying shut up and cook. They're seeing each other as full people, but just to sort of close the loop on that too, so that people would get into really unhealthy coping mechanisms. Whether it was like there was always booze around, drugs, whatever it is, you get off work late at night and what is there to do? There's going to drink. It's not like there's a bookstore open or you're not having those regular family check ins with friends and stuff like that. So you're, you're caught in your own head with people who maybe want to keep the party going and you know, and can get really, it can get into a really, really bad cycle. But I am so heartened to say that there are so many people are breaking that cycle and providing resources. People like Southern Smoke Foundation, Ben's Friends. That is specifically about substance use disorder for the service industry and South. There's so much more light and hope than there was when I started talking about this openly and people were angry with me for talking about it. It's just I see more and more every day people like stepping up and taking care of each other because they realize they're worth it.

[C]

I also feel like I've seen more chefs, like high profile chefs coming out and saying like, I'm sober now. I had a problem with drugs or alcohol, but I'm, you know, living a different life now and just being really open about their sobriety, which is really refreshing and wonderful.

[B]

Wonderful to see they're on run clubs now. I mean, that's the thing. You can run anytime, you know, and sometimes it's like replacing one behavior with another, but it's still, you know, I think that's wonderful and like modeling that help. But I'm thinking like we, we just, on the day that we're recording, we had our season premiere, season four premiere of Tinfoil Swans. And a lot of it is talking with Tom Colicchio about ADHD and how he coped early on by like partying too much. But then he talks about a really critical moment that we was, he could have gotten into a really dangerous situation and he was like, okay, walking away from that. But I also saw a lot of people of his generation of chefs just die, die, fade away, all this kind of stuff. And I think people are just sick of it.

[C]

Yeah, go ahead, Sarah.

[A]

Well, I was just going to say I appreciate so much of you, you know, you putting all of that out there and talking about your own Anxiety. I know talking about things that you're experiencing yourself is hard, but I know how much it helps other people. And even, even just, you know, my daughter has ADHD and anxiety, and anytime she hears anybody else mention that, she just takes this breath and kind of smiles and she goes, they have anxiety. You know, she's like. It makes her, like, realize that she is okay and that she's going to be okay. And especially when she sees, like, a functioning adult say it and. And can just be like, oh, great, you know, like, I'm gonna be okay. And so I just want to, like, thank you for all the things that you do, because I think you. You've helped so many people just by talking about it and writing about it and being in this public space. And I know that you'll continue to do that, but also, you're, like, inspiring the next generation to do that, you know, And I think that's the only way things are going to get better.

[B]

Well, thank you for saying that. It makes me feel less alone. And I, you know, and I want to give a big old shout out to friend of the pods, Margaret E. Buy one of my dear friends in the universe who literally, like, wrote a book on how to feed yourself when you can't.

[C]

It's such a good book, too. Oh, I love it so much.

[B]

Fantastic book. And yesterday I got to shout her out. I. I went on another one of my favorite podcasts, Depress Mode, and they're doing a depressed meals episode. So we got to talk about, like, how, you know how to feed your beautiful body when you're. When you're going through this. But I think just, you know, I feel good for how. I don't know how old your daughter is.

[C]

12.

[B]

Oh, my God. That gives me hope for the future. First of all, that she has a mom who sees her and sees this in her that, like, that is everything that's so huge. And I'm 53. It is not going to be the stigma that it would have been when I was growing up. Thank you for being part of the change.

[C]

How can eaters like people who just go to restaurants who aren't in the restaurant industry? How can eaters support better workplace conditions or better mental health for in restaurants? Like, what is the role of just an average person in that?

[B]

You know, there are so many of these amazing groups out there, like Southern Smoke, like Ben's Friends. Like, you know, figure out the people who are involved in those and go to their restaurants. I mean, sometimes you can look at them at a menu and see that there are, you know, I know service fees and stuff like that are really hot button kind of thing, but sometimes it's going toward making sure that the people who are working there can actually like, stay alive and well. Yeah, I don't want to get the name of this wrong, but I just saw this thing today and it was. Padma Lakshmi was talking about it, but it was a coalition of a bunch of these groups that had gotten together that had maybe been operating in various parts of the country and some nationwide and, and they had come together so to like collectively lobby for all of this. And oh, gosh, I wish I could remember this right in the second what that group is called. But, you know, you'll see the people, like the chefs who are out there who are speaking up about these, about these things or, you know, maybe make a point on their menus of supporting these causes. Like, you know, they're always, always like charity events and stuff like that. See who takes, who takes part in these. And, you know, also, I think we're all in this state of reckoning right now with everything that's gone on in noma. And, you know, I wrote about this recently because it was at MAD Symposium, you know, that Noma's a big part of it in 2016, where I got up on stage and talked to hundreds of chefs about the mental health crisis in, you know, in the industry. And at the same time, you know, with all these revelations, I was having to reckon with, like how much of this was going on, like when I was just like feet away, you know, talking about this kind of stuff. So I was thinking, like, you know, I have to do my research and more than other people, I think more because of the position that I have. But now, like, if I'm going on to somewhere, I might go on Reddit and see if there's stuff about them because they're always like people who work places who are talking on Reddit and you can, you know, sort of have vet for yourself, look at local message boards and stuff. If I'm going to splash down for a fairly pricey meal and stuff. I want to make sure that, like, there are people are happy and being taken care of and I trust places where people have been working for a really long time. I think people wanting to stick around is a really huge thing. I try to support restaurants. New restaurants are so wonderful. We have to get out and support those. We also have to support those ones that have been around for, you know, Tom Colicchio's restaurant has been around for 25 years and, and they just had their hardest year yet, you know, so we have to keep those places going. But if you, you know, if you're a regulator place and you see that there isn't a huge amount of staff turnover and stuff, you have pretty good indication that things are going well there.

[C]

Yeah. Support your restaurants, especially the old guy, those stalwarts of the thinking about Portland. There's so many new places that we always want to try out, but then we usually just go to a place

[B]

we've been before because gosh, you have some such a great, great restaurant city. Really and truly, it's ridiculous. Yeah, it's. I still think about fried egg. I'm in love.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. The last couple times we've tried to go, it's been so busy that we end up not eating there, which is great. Happy for them.

[D]

I mean, good for them.

[C]

Great for them. But I want an egg sandwich

[B]

and y' all were kind enough to take me to Ox, which I totally fell of our faves.

[C]

Yeah, Ox is great for sure.

[E]

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[B]

Off.

[E]

And now back to the show.

[C]

I mean we could talk for hours, but every Week we answer a caller question, and this week we're going to talk about maple syrup. Can you read the question, please?

[B]

This is Nick from Portland, Oregon with a question for the Joy of Cooking podcast. I recently came into sort of a glut of maple syrup. Pretty good quality stuff from Vermont, and I have like a gallon of it. I love maple syrup and I normally treat it like sort of a precious commodity, partially because of the cost of it, but because I have so much right now, and at the rate I would normally use it, it will be in my fridge for quite a long time. I'm interested in some ideas about other possible uses rather than sort of typical on French toast or pancakes, thinking, like, ways to flavor a pie or some other sort of dessert where maybe it could substitute maple syrup or some other kind of sweetening agent. Thanks. Bye.

[C]

Ideas for a large quantity of maple syrup.

[D]

Did they actually say how much? I'm just kind of curious.

[A]

I think it said a gallon.

[C]

Nice.

[D]

Okay, so I was just reading our entry on maple syrup in the know your ingredients chapter, and I think that that on average, that would be 35 gallons of SAP.

[C]

Yeah, it's something wild. Like 35 to 40 gallons is what

[A]

it takes to make a gallon of maple syrup.

[C]

Yeah, that's wild. So that is a lot of boiling, boiling down in the sugar shack.

[A]

I have a suggestion. Mine's quick because I'm thinking about, you know, maple syrup can go bad, so there's no way to. To acidify it. So if you think about, like, how people make, like, hot honey, you put some vinegar, and if. And if you want to make it hot, you can put some dried chilies in it. So you're thinking about, you know, the water is what's causing it to mold. It's when you're taking all of that maple syrup SAP and you're boiling it down to make that, there's still so much water in it. So if you want to make it last longer, but you don't necessarily have to make it spicy. But I would make it spicy. So I would just.

[D]

You would make it spicy up.

[A]

I would heat up some vinegar with some dried chilies and then add it to the maple syrup, and then you can still keep it outside of the refrigerator.

[C]

Nice.

[A]

That's my tip.

[C]

Yeah, I like that a lot. And that's a good note also, that if anyone doesn't know, maple syrup will mold if you don't refrigerate it. Usually if you buy, like, the maple syrup at Costco, it's got a seal on it. So you can keep it out until you open it and then you have to refrigerate it. I don't want anybody opening their maple syrup to find some mold in there. That, that is a sad, sad thing.

[A]

Well, especially if you're paying a lot of money for something that is expensive and high quality, like he's saying. But yeah. And some people are like, I don't refrigerate anything, you know, whatever. But it is one of those things that it will grow mold. It has so much water, water activity

[C]

in it and it's, it's a kind of lower pH. It doesn't, it's not acidic at all. So.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. So I, I calculated if they were to not repeat, repeat any recipe in the Joy of Cooking that uses maple syrup, they will get rid of about quote unquote, get rid of, consume eight and a half cups. So that's not too shabby.

[C]

Are you just going to read, are you going to read them all off?

[D]

I mean, I don't have to.

[C]

Well, let's talk about volume first. Like what's the largest volume? The recipe that uses the largest volume

[D]

of maple syrup, maple candy, which is just you add some oil to the maple syrup up like a little bit and then you're just bringing it to 238 degrees on a thermometer and then just pouring it into, you know, an oiled like molds. Yeah. Nine by a mold or a nine by five pan. And then you can just cut it when it's cooled down. But yeah, that's a good two cups out of there.

[C]

But before we read off your recipes, Kat, do you have any thoughts about using maple syrup?

[B]

Yes, I do throw a party. This is what I love to do if I have a large amount of something. I came back once from North Carolina, where my husband is from, and we had so many pork products because I brought back scrapple and liver mush and, and like, you know, liver pudding and all this kind of stuff. And I was, I can relate.

[C]

I can relate to this problem.

[B]

Oh yeah. You know, like so much nieces in there. Oh, I love nieces. And I. And you know, we had sausage, sausage and stuff. So we had what is now known as the pork drawer party and I got Elizabeth Caramel to come over and we made all these different things. So having a gallon of maple syrup is a perfect excuse to have a party. Like first of all, you need to pour enough out to decant so everybody gets to take a little bit home and do something with them. But otherwise Go nuts. Make something large format. Make the drinks out of it. Make it the theme of the entire thing. I don't know, make it sound slip and slide. If you want to like have, have games, have like, can you do a maple syrup hot pot kind of situation?

[C]

Maple syrup shots.

[D]

Maybe the fountains, like the, like the chocolate fondue fountains.

[B]

Having made a gravy fountain. And we actually did do. When I was at Extra Crispy, which was the breakfast website, we did do a maple syrup fountain. So like this is. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So you've got your little fondue, almost fondue, like situation. You got little sausages, little mini pancakes

[D]

and some, some corn dogs perhaps.

[C]

Corn dogs.

[D]

I know. Just, just, just, you know, brainstorming here.

[A]

I hope Nick has that party and I hope he invites us to it.

[C]

I know that sounds so fun.

[A]

He did say he's here in Portland. We don't know him.

[C]

But Nick, if you're listening, please, your maple syrup party.

[B]

I want video. I love it so badly.

[C]

All right, John, just pick a few favorites.

[D]

Well, switch. Switchel is like, you know, a pretty low effort, thirst quenchy kind of beverage.

[A]

I don't know what Switchel is at all.

[C]

It's kind of like old timey Gatorade. So it's like a refreshing thing you might drink. I compare it to Gatorade, not for the flavor.

[D]

The most questionable.

[A]

He doesn't know what it is. That's what that look is.

[C]

It's just usually it's a little bit of vinegar. So it's a little tangy. Some maple syrup. Syrup and water and what else?

[A]

That's it. Right?

[D]

I have to look at the recipe. Cheese.

[C]

But it's. It's basically like an electrolyte replacement beverage for a hot day. It's very tasty. It's kind of. It kind of reminds me of a little bit of kombucha because it's tangy, it's a little bit sweet, but it's pretty light and refreshing for like a hot day. And then I was thinking about, I kind of want to just use maple syrup as a glaze for things. I think it would be like, just a great glaze for like ham, chicken, salmon, pork.

[D]

We have a bourbon glaze recipe that. It's usually used as molasses, but you can sub maple syrup and then use a whole cup of it.

[C]

Oh, and I think that would be really good for some vegetables too. Maybe like winter squash or even I think if you roasted some mushrooms and then glazed them with just a little bit of that at the Very end. And let it get kind of crispy. And caramel.

[D]

Caramelized, maybe with some cayenne mixed in.

[C]

Yeah. Make it spicy. Absolutely. I also had down. We've got it. Won't use very much, but it's fun. If you've never made homemade marshmallows before, there's a recipe. Enjoy. For homemade marshmallows. And you can use maple syrup in part instead of some of the corn syrup or maybe all of it.

[D]

I think it's all of it. And it's. So that's two thirds of a cup.

[C]

Yeah. That's a lot of maple syrup. And it's just fun to make my marshmallows because it's kind of like a science experiment. And it's really surprisingly easy and cool when it just happens. It just like turns into a marshmallow at a certain point, which is very fun.

[A]

Seems great. I've never made marshmallows. I've only bought.

[C]

You should try. You should try. They're so much better than store bought. Yeah. My one note is do not use it in canning recipes because it has a low pH. I think if you wanted to use it in a quick pickle that you're just going to refrigerate, that would be fine. But no canning with maple syrup. So you cannot replace sugar in your favorite jam recipe with maple syrup, unfortunately. But yeah, there's. There's a lot of stuff you can do. Like there's a recipe Enjoy. For Sunrise Muffins, which is like a kind of breakfast y, like grated carrot and apple and nuts and oats. Like a hearty breakfast muffin that uses maple syrup.

[D]

Well, the first thing we joked about was that when you were working at the natural food store, grocery store, like, they had a bunch of vegan baked goods and every single one of them uses maple syrup. So just find vegan baking recipes.

[C]

It was truly wild. Like all of our vegan recipes, you know, and we were making huge quantities of baked things, but you would use like six to eight cups of maple syrup in a recipe. And once Whole Foods actually bought the grocery store I worked for, and when they came in, they put a stop to that pretty quick.

[A]

That is too expensive of an ingredient.

[C]

And we're not doing.

[A]

Nope.

[C]

And then our recipe of the week is a maple syrup recipe. The title of the recipe is actually honey sorghum or maple syrup pie. And it's on page 678. Just use Maple syrup as the sweetener for that. And it's like based on the recipe from 4 and 20 Blackbirds. The bakery, they had like this, the salty honey pie, but use maple syrup instead of honey and add that flaky salt onto top and it's fantastic.

[B]

So if you make the recipe of

[C]

the week, please tag us on Instagram. He joyofcooking. We would love to see it. If you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you, Sarah. Can you please read the next caller question?

[A]

Had to go joy hunting, and I'm so excited to have found a 1951 edition. Are there additions that are hard to find or extra rare so that I can keep an eye out?

[C]

Fun. We get to talk about old joys and our joy collection next week.

[D]

Awesome.

[C]

Kat, do you have all of the editions?

[B]

Well, let's see that guy.

[C]

Okay. Yeah. Facsimile, 1931. Facsimile edition.

[D]

1951.

[A]

51.

[C]

75.

[D]

Classic. I mean, they all are, but whatever.

[C]

Oh, yeah, 1943. Yeah. Another 70. That's the combined 1975, which I recently was. Oh, my gosh. There's so much. But I was going through all these old papers that our publisher sent us from, like, their storage, and a lot of it was junk. But then there was some correspondence, I guess that combound joy. It was like another publisher got a licensing deal to. To print it as a soft cover, but they did not get an authorization to do the comb binding. So that was forbidden. But they did it anyway. But that was like in the 70s. It's fine.

[B]

So I have contraband. Well. And then I have the most important

[C]

one, which is 2019.

[D]

Very nice.

[A]

Do you guys have the leather bound one that cat was mentioning earlier?

[C]

No, we don't have it.

[D]

I feel like we. I feel like we had a mock up.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[A]

Did they have to get approval to do it?

[C]

They bought a license to print it. It's really.

[A]

I remember seeing you, I definitely sent you a picture when I saw it, and I was like, I feel like this was made for me. I didn't get one.

[D]

Hint, hint, you know?

[C]

All right, what. What is everybody. What's everybody cooking this week? Or what are you excited to eat this week, Kat?

[B]

Oh, my golly. Okay, so this week is looking like. I'm trying to think of what we have in the fridge right now. It's going to be a cod week. We, Douglas had always been sort of a fish hater and stuff. And then he didn't really have a whole lot of options after the heart attack. Had to very much change some things. So I've been playing with a lot of just different. There's sort of basic, like, air fryer cod, but I tweak it every time. And burlap and beryl just sent me a few different, like, fun new spice blends. They have, like, a sumac salt kind of affair. So I'm going to, like, play around with that some. You know, it's. It's still not entirely spring here in New York, so I'm to go stalking what I can and honestly like less cooking. But I am just jazzed to say that I was thinking back over my meals for the past week. Rocco De Spirito has a new restaurant, and I am going to ask him about his pesto rosso. And I need to figure out what he did there because I cannot stop thinking about that. It was sort of this very, like, sort of big tubes of pasta with this, you know, with this pesto rosso. And I was like, I basically need to harangue the man until I can.

[C]

You dug it?

[B]

Definitely do.

[D]

So you'll be getting, like, a gallon. You know, a gallon yields recipe that you're gonna have to scale down.

[B]

Luckily, that man writes really good human recipes.

[C]

Oh, amazing.

[B]

I'm gonna pester him. I will also say he had squid ink arancinis, squid ink risotto, arancin. And I need to figure out that, too.

[C]

John, you have a good cod recipe that you make?

[D]

Oh, yeah. Well, cod boulanger. Am I pronouncing it correct? You're the official French pronunciation.

[C]

You're right.

[D]

Okay. But, yeah, no, it's just simply baked with potatoes. I think the potatoes have been par. Cooked and pearl onions. And the recipes in the book, what we've been doing is we've been adding like, a miso butter to the top, which I think that's going to be going in the next edition. It's just really good.

[C]

Just like a little dab, little dabs of miso butter on the fish. Yeah, it kind of melts down and, you know, enrobes everything in its deliciousness.

[D]

But, I mean, cod's just a. It's a great canvas. I guess that's kind of a backhanded compliment to cod. But a red pesto sounds delicious. That it seems like that would be good, or salsa verde would be a wonderful, wonderful.

[C]

What about you, Sarah?

[A]

Well, I've been recipe testing, so I'm not gonna say I Can't think I can say what those recipes are right now. But in the hot sauce world, I'm doing strawberry rhubarb ghost hot sauce. That's my market special.

[B]

And.

[A]

And then I'm. All of our lovage plants and mint plants and parsley plants in the garden are going off. So I am bringing our chimichurri back to market, which is like one of our popular.

[C]

Yeah, that's a really. People love that.

[A]

They do love it. Everyone's been coming to my booth and being like, like, I stitching me tree back. I'm like, not yet. My plant, it's just like spring here. Like the ground just unfroze. I gotta wait till they grow. So. So that's what's going on in the hot sauce kitchen.

[D]

That's like the gateway dish for lovage, period. I think.

[A]

I know. Well, a lot of people don't know what it is even so then. Then they try it and then, and then I can, you know, you know,

[C]

let me know if you want more lovage because.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Well, I had a tiny start a few years ago, and it, it is now a giant thing that I actually split in half this year and planted in two different places. And now we're gonna have.

[A]

Yeah, well, we have plants all over the yard. But I mean, you know, my customers go crazy for it. So I need a lot.

[C]

I need a lot of love. Just let me know, let me know.

[B]

Crucial question. Do you ship? You just made me so hungry.

[A]

We'll send you a little care package

[C]

and cat, before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

[B]

Oh, gosh. So on the various non evil platforms at Catkinsman, I'd really, really love it if folks would tune into tinfoil swans. We just launched season four. I'm super excited about that. Can find my work on foodandwine.com and, you know, just my DMs are open and stuff and I just love to talk with lovely folks like you. And I just have 1 million things I want to make.

[C]

After this episode, we'll put links to everything, your podcast and all your socials in our show notes.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[C]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about vintage joys. And don't forget to make this week's recipe maple syrup pie on page 670. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[A]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team. Joy of Creation Production House. Thanks to today's producer, my cute husband Dirk Marshall, and Haley Bowers, our audio engineer. If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent media. Please visit patreon.com backslash the joy of Creation Production House to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.