Tamar Adler on Noticing What's Good

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joy of Cooking Podcast

Episode: Tamar Adler: A Casual Culinary Chat About the Ride of Book Writing
Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Sarah Marshall (filling in for Shannon Larson), with Megan Scott & John Becker
Guest: Tamar Adler (food writer & author)

Episode Overview

This episode is a lively, heartfelt conversation with Tamar Adler—award-winning author, food columnist, and cook—about the realities and emotional tides of writing cookbooks, home cooking philosophies, and the comfort and complexities of everyday food rituals. Adler, joining from Spain, shares how relocating has shaped her cooking and creative perspective. The conversation delves into practical recipe advice, ingredient choices, the emotional aspects of both cooking and writing, and the search for joy and connection in the kitchen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What We’re Cooking and Eating Lately

(01:03-08:21)

• Sarah Marshall discusses her recent kitchen challenges, working on a hot sauce collaboration, and prepping for the Oregon truffle festival (“I feel like I never want to eat another truffle again, but I always go into it excited...” - Sarah, 03:37).
• Megan Scott recounts making her vegan chili (with tempeh and mushrooms) and southern cornbread using pink cornmeal (“The southern cornbread I grew up with...entirely dependent on really good cornmeal.” - Megan, 07:10).
• John Becker describes an attempt at roasted mushroom lasagna (recipe on p. 310), tweaking layers and cheese to personal taste, highlighting the ongoing learning that comes with recipe development.

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2. Introducing Tamar Adler

(09:26-10:52)

• Tamar Adler is welcomed and expresses the “unique torture” of listening to their earlier banter without being able to join in—setting a friendly, conversational tone.

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3. Culinary Adaptation in a New Place (Madrid Stories)

(11:00-14:49)

• Tamar describes the journey of finding her own sources (“your places”) for ingredients since moving to Madrid, focusing on her recent discovery of a quality fish vendor:
  • “We walked in, and [my son] was stunned by the beauty of mackerel…” (Tamar, 12:13)
• Simply prepared mackerel with lemon, thoughtful reflection on how ingredient sourcing and local food culture influence cooking habits.

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4. Reflections on Joy of Cooking & Cornbread Deep-Dive

(15:17-19:10)

• Tamar shares her family’s culinary heritage—her mother gravitated toward Claudia Roden and Paula Wolfert, but scones and cornbread always came from Joy of Cooking.
• Spirited discussion about cornbread—Southern vs. Northern, importance of cornmeal quality, and recipe adaptation (“The better the cornmeal, the less sugar you need.” - Tamar, 18:26).
• Megan outlines different Joy of Cooking cornbread recipes, with details about techniques for improving texture with coarse cornmeal.

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5. The “Quality Ingredient” Recipe Dilemma

(19:31-25:33)

• Sarah asks about guiding readers to use good-quality ingredients like chocolate without naming brands.
• Tamar offers practical tips—specifying cacao percentage and process—and philosophical perspective:
  • “Those of us who spend...think that what we think is so good, is that it's necessary to reproduce that...I think we're totally wrong. What tastes inferior to you...would probably taste amazing to somebody...” (Tamar, 21:28)
• They reflect on food elitism, accessibility, and the universal joy of homemade treats, even with humble ingredients.

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6. Comfort Dishes and Entertaining Philosophy

(27:03-31:00)

• Tamar admits she has no signature potluck dish—she encourages hosts to request whatever they truly need.
• Her “pathological” tendency toward large gatherings in small spaces is anchored by her reliance on simple, well-cooked beans (“...people so often eat bad beans that when you serve them good beans, they're over the moon...” - Tamar, 28:41).
• Loving endorsement of jarred chickpeas and lentils in Spain for their flavor and convenience.

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7. Cooking Beans: Myth-Busting & Tips

(31:00-34:42)

• Megan credits Tamar for convincing her to salt beans from the very beginning (“I feel like I've come around to your method...it seasons them much better.” - Megan, 31:27).
• Discussion of the importance (and sometimes overlooked safety) of boiling kidney beans to neutralize toxins.
• Shared tips for oven-cooked beans and warnings about slow cookers with certain bean types.

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8. The Emotional Journey of Book Writing

(35:08-43:10)

• Tamar candidly discusses the cyclic creative exhaustion and emotional “nadir” after a major book project (“I was really depressed, and I felt like everything was terrible and...I had missed the boat…” - Tamar, 35:11).
• The gratitude practice that led to her new book, Feast on Your Life: “It always felt like a pretty small project...but what a meaningful organizing principle...to start by noticing what's good.”
• Dialog about creative burnout, transitions, and the small acts of starting again.

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9. Cooking Without Recipes vs. Recipe Reliance

(47:17-48:23)

• John and Megan recount a tough period: post-publication, Covid lockdown, and John’s cancer diagnosis—how following recipes provided emotional and cognitive relief (“It was like having a conversation with the recipe...” - John, 47:53).
• Tamar reflects on the merit of both approaches, and on giving oneself permission to rely on recipes when needed.

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10. Food Culture, Trends, and a Little Cheese Talk

(56:26-64:51)

• Listener Q&A on cheese and memorable “cheese moments” from past episodes.
• Megan shares favorite cheeses and stories (e.g., Hallerhacker's disturbing label, the Succession-featured Isle of Mull cheddar, rare blooming ashed cheeses).
• Tamar introduces a Pyrenean “flower covered alpine cheese” and her favorite way to use up cheese rinds—cooking tiny pasta in a cheese rind-infused broth:
  • “You put them in chicken stock, and you cook it until the stock is, like, really milky, and then you strain them out and cook pastina in that really thick, cheesy stock, and it is so amazing.” (Tamar, 62:03)
• Playful riff on cheese supply, loss-leader deals, and the pastoral joy of La Tour (triple-milk cheese).

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11. Joy Scouts Recipe of the Week

(64:14-65:24)

• Megan announces: “Cheddar Cheese Ball” on p. 55—emphasis on shredding your own cheese, and practical assembly tips.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On ingredient snobbery:
  “What tastes inferior to you...would probably taste amazing to somebody that doesn't regularly make brownies...if what somebody makes is like even 70% as good as what I make, that's a hundred percent success.”
  — Tamar Adler (21:28)
• On the creative cycle and holding your nerve:
  “It’s like 365 variations on hold your nerve...Begin, stand up for, you know, stand facing the stove. Like, that's what it means.”
  — Tamar Adler (41:47)
• On cooking through hardship:
  “It was like having a conversation with the recipe...an experience of less loneliness.”
  — John Becker (47:53)
• On the joy of simple food:
  “People so often eat bad beans that when you serve them good beans, they're over the moon and somehow, like, don't notice that all you're serving them is, like, beans and some pounded parsley and olive oil and, you know, bread...”
  — Tamar Adler (28:41)
• On letting go of kitchen perfection:
  “You as the writer...should...experiment with allowing yourself to disconnect your...ideal version...[from] all of the different versions, which could still be rewarding.”
  — Tamar Adler (25:12)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• Cornmeal Matters (Cornbread Chat): 06:26–08:26
• Tamar’s Madrid Fish Epiphany: 11:00–13:35
• Beans, Entertaining, and Jarred Lentils: 27:15–30:13
• Book Writing and Gratitude Journaling: 35:08–37:30
• Coping through Recipe Following (Pandemic & Cancer): 46:35–49:27
• Cheese Segment (Listener Q&A): 56:30–64:51
• Joy Scouts Recipe Announcement: 64:14–65:24

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Additional Resources

• Find Tamar Adler: Instagram @tamareadler, Substack: The Kitchen Shrink
• Latest Book: Feast on Your Life
• Joy of Cooking (2019 Edition): Recipes referenced—vegan chili, southern/northern cornbread, roasted mushroom lasagna (p. 310), cheddar cheese ball (p. 55)
• Contact / Hotline: [phone]

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Tone & Style

Warm, witty, and generous. The episode is grounded in practical experience, but colored by personal anecdotes, philosophical digressions, and the kind of humor and vulnerability that comes from cooks who have seen both sides of kitchen triumph and disaster.

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This episode is a must listen for anyone who loves food not just as a product, but as a practice, a process, and—above all—a source of connection and joy.

Transcript

[A]

Sa.

[B]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking. We talk kitchen victories and misadventures and what we are cooking and eating right now. Thanks for joining us at the table today. I'm Sarah Marshall, producer of this podcast and Marshall's hot sauce owner. I'm filling in for Shannon today and I was trying scallions this week and I think I may have lost most of my eyelashes.

[C]

What? I'm sorry, before I read my intro.

[B]

What I'm working on, I'm working on a new sauce with one of our past guests and I was charring scallions over a big flame and I think that, you know, it was like pretty close to make sure that I got them right.

[C]

Oh, no.

[D]

Oh man, I'm so sorry.

[B]

Barely have eyelashes left. Hazards of the trade, I guess.

[D]

Well, give it time, you know, it's fine.

[C]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And I know you should bring cheese to room temperature before eating it, but I usually can't wait that long.

[D]

I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And I have officially ruined my hand cranked pasta roller.

[C]

It's really sad. It's a really nice vintage pasta roller.

[D]

I'm almost positive it was Marian's. And I've just been, I've been using like clamps I bought at the hardware store to get it to, you know, actually stay put like on our thicker than apparently normal countertop. It's just kind of like as I crank it just slowly is bending upward like it's kind of on the other side.

[C]

Caved in where you clamped it down.

[D]

Yeah, it started caving in like the, the sheet metal around like the base is all caved in from where the clamps have been. I guess I've been a little overzealous in tightening them. So then I started putting quarters in between like the clamp and the roller. But it's just you keep having to use more quarters. Yeah, more quarters. And it keeps on going further and further away from the counter. It's no good.

[B]

Do you think you can find like a metalsmith repair person or something?

[D]

I don't know. I mean, yeah, who's going to work on an antique?

[B]

It feels like you got to keep it in the fam though, you know? You can't just, like, we got to

[C]

find a better way to clamp it down, I think is the answer.

[D]

There's got to be a better way.

[C]

I'm sure there is. Other than burning off your eyelashes, what have you been up to this week, Sarah?

[B]

Well, I. So I've been doing lots of sauce related things. So that sauce is for our past guest, Lewis from Chow Yai. We're gonna do a hot sauce together for their brunch. So we're working on that and then getting ready for the truffle festival, which is this weekend. So I've been working on all things truffle, which, like, makes your skin and body just smell like truffles, which is kind of like. I feel like when people cook with truffles a lot and, you know, they have all these rules for that festival, you have to use organ truffle, which are like, really strong. They're like the black organ truffles. It like gets in your skin. I feel like if you cook with it, you like, have a hard time eating it afterwards. I don't know if other people have that battle, but I'm. I'm in that moment right now where I feel like I never want to eat another truffle again. But I. I always go into it excited about it, and then I'm like, no.

[C]

I mean, I always think of them as like, you don't need very much to make a big impact. And so if you're cook. I imagine if you're cooking with them a lot, it would be easy to

[D]

get tired or afford very much. I mean, this is a unique problem, for sure.

[B]

It's a unique problem, I think. And yeah, I'm. I'm not like, you know, it's like complaining about my diamonds. I don't know. I'm sure I'll get over it. But yeah, so that's what I've been cooking. Lots of, lots of cool stuff. And then home cooking. I did get a new cookbook when I was in New York. Padma's all American, so we have some plans to cook some stuff from that. But, yeah, that's what I've been up to.

[C]

I feel like complaining about having to cook with truffles is like this Mitchell and Webb skit where one of them works at an ice cream factory and comes home wanting to complain about his job. And the other one is like a pediatric oncologist or something. And it's like, no, you can complain about your job too. It's okay.

[B]

As I was saying it, I was like, I'm gonna stop. There's much bigger problems in the world.

[C]

My project this past week was we actually went sort of calling it camping. Isn't. Isn't fair. Because there was a cabin involved.

[D]

Yeah. Temporary cabin dwelling.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Short term cabin dwelling.

[B]

You guys know, to me, that is camping. I'm not going to judge your camp.

[C]

Well, it's the kind of camping where you can bring an electric kettle and an induction burner. So that's what we did. And I made my vegan chili recipe. So as I was chatting about it with the people we were camping with, quote, unquote, quote unquote camping, I was like, you know, I didn't want to make a beef chili because I feel like when you eat a really beefy meal like that, it makes you, like, you smell. I don't know. I feel like you get meat sweats.

[B]

Like, meat sweats?

[C]

Yeah. But everyone else looked at me like they'd never heard of such a concept.

[B]

And they haven't been to, like, a meat centered food festival because everyone have you. Yeah. Like, feast used to be that way where they would do those barbecue events and all you would eat for like six hours is just like, meat that all these chefs made. And it was awesome. But then that's all anybody would talk about, how, like, everybody just had meat sweats because they would all, like, party together afterwards. It's true. Megan, you're not wrong.

[D]

I thought I was right, but I was on team, you know, chili con carne simply because, like, one bowl of chili is not gonna. I don't think it's gonna give you that.

[C]

Well, I. I decided to make my vegan chili, which I'm actually really proud of. And I'm.

[D]

It's very good.

[C]

It's very good. And my. Even my family likes it and they love, but it's. It's made with like, crumbled up tempeh and ground up mushrooms. So it has a little bit of that texture that you expect from a chili.

[B]

Is that recipe in the.

[A]

It is.

[C]

It is in the 2019 edition. And then I made some cornbread with some really awesome cornmeal that I got from Marsh Hen Mill. It's like a. They call the variety Unicorn. And it's pink. Like, you open. I opened the bag. I wasn't sure what I was getting, but it's like this pink cornmeal. And the cornbread that it made was like, not quite. It was like a darker pink color, but really beautiful and unusual, but also very, very tasty. And I'm learning that the southern cornbread I grew up with, which is not sweetened and is only cornmeal, is entirely dependent on really good cornmeal. Otherwise it doesn't taste like much of anything. So I think that I have to amend that recipe just to say, like, the cornmeal matters here.

[D]

It does, but it's still really good, even if you use like the bog standard cornmeal.

[C]

Yeah, but I don't know, I. I think that to get the full impact, you have to use flavorful cornmeal.

[D]

That's fair.

[C]

What about you, John? What are you thinking about this week?

[D]

I ended up actually making the Joy Scouts recipe that we assigned last time. You know, the roasted mushroom lasagna. It turned out really well. Pasta roller hijinks aside, I added like a layer of sauteed onion to each layer and then topped it with some extra mozzarella. So I. I don't know if I'm actually going to change the recipe, but I. I really did enjoy messing around with it a little bit.

[C]

You do like to mess around with recipes.

[D]

It's one of my.

[B]

Always makes it better, I feel.

[D]

Yeah, I don't know about that. I don't know.

[C]

I think we need to add a diagram for assembling lasagna, because no matter how many times I make one, I still have to look at the instructions and really think about it. You know, the. All the layering. How many pieces do I need to. Or how many sections do I need to divide this ricotta mixture into?

[D]

Yeah. A narrative description of layering lasagna is tedious to write and tedious to read.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Visuals. Yeah, absolutely. That roasted mushroom lasagna is on page 310 of the 2019 edition. And if you decide to make it, please tag us on instagram @the joyofcooking. We would love to see what you make. Hey, Joy of Cooking listeners. Did you know the same family that taught America how to cook also taught California how to make world class Chardonnay. The same joy and passion for life that inspired Irma Rombauer to write the Joy of Cooking inspired her great nephew, Kerner Rombauer to establish Rombauer vineyards. Founded in 1980 in the Napa Valley. Rombauer has been producing acclaimed wines from California ever since. While they're famous for their iconic California Chardonnay, Rombauer crafts a diverse collection of delicious wines that bring joy to your table. Ready to taste the legacy? Visit rombauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15% off your order that's R O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod

[E]

all caps must be 21 to enjoy.

[C]

We would like to welcome Tamar Adler to the table. Tamar is the award winning author of an everlasting the Everlasting Meal Cookbook, Something old, something new and her latest feast on your life. Tamar has cooked at Chez Panisse, Farm255 and Prune. She's a former New York Times magazine columnist and a contributing editor at Vogue magazine. In addition to her columns in the New York Times Magazine, Tamar has reviewed books for the New York Times and the New Yorker and covered topics as wide ranging as seaweed, hot dogs, baby weaning and diet culture. For Vogue, she moonlights as the kitchen shrink on Substack where she writes a culinary psychological advice column. Tamar lives in Madrid, Spain with her husband and son. Welcome to the show, Tamar.

[A]

Thank you. I have got to say it's a pleasure to be here. However, it is a unique form of torture to hear your guys opening conversation and not be part of it. I have, like, that is not fair. I mean, work this out with a prior enemy of mine or something. I was sitting here like, I have thoughts. I want to talk about the chili

[C]

and I want, we can talk about the chili.

[B]

Now is your time.

[A]

You can tell. I just want to say, I just want to say that was very hard. I was like, take notes. I didn't, I just looked at Instagram. But I had a lot of feelings.

[C]

Well, my first question for you is sort of similar to what we were just talking about. What have you been cooking or eating this week that you're most excited about?

[A]

We. So I live in Madrid, which you just mentioned. And you know, it takes a long time to find your, your places, your places that you buy things, your vendors. And I did not approach it as like a mission. I had a very sort of organic, I'm just going to be in the flow kind of approach to it, which I don't know is, I don't think that was a better approach. I think I just, it's just what I did. And so I haven't found a bunch of them yet. And then, and the biggest, so far, the biggest sort of blank space has been fish. And I didn't, I'm from the Hudson Valley. At home, we did not eat fish because you can't really get fish in the northern Hudson, Hudson Valley. I mean, it's from far away. It's like $30 a pound, if you care. You know, if it's, like, good. And then we did have it, like an urban fishery that opened up that sells trout, so we would sometimes get trout from them, but it just wasn't, you know, it's just not what we do there. And Madrid is landlocked but has amazing seafood. So I've eaten it out, but I just hadn't found my spot and hadn't bought it very much. And somebody kept on telling me about this one place called Pescados Alofer in Lavapia, which is adjacent to my neighborhood. And my son and I finally went on Wednesday. So we went earlier this week to the fish store after living here for six months. And it's amazing. We walked in and he was stunned by the beauty of mackerel, as, I mean, anybody is in the company of mackerel and was just immediately drawn to them. And without even realizing that that's what he likes, canned, too. And, yeah, we were just swept up in it and got a ton of mackerel and brought it home. And it was so exciting. It was like my husband today was reminiscing about this meal we had two days ago.

[C]

What did you make with the mackerel?

[A]

What I did was just. It was so, so beautiful. They filleted it, but kind of just butterflied it. And so all I did was salt it and do it in cast iron with lemon and then a bunch of salads and bread. But it needed a salsa verde. We established that. And I didn't make one that time because I was kind of just like, let's just. I don't know. I just want to make the mackerel. But next time I will do the same thing, but also make a salsa verde.

[C]

Very nice. I feel like we've been. My fish. Fish have been on my brain lately because we're watching Alone. Have you seen this show? It's a survival. It's a survival show.

[A]

Yeah, where you're, like, sometimes naked. You're, like, running around naked somewhere.

[C]

No, that's a different one. Oh, you're thinking of naked and afraid. No, this one is just called Alone. And they drop people off in a remote location by themselves, and they have to, you know, survive. And so there's a lot of fishing that goes on, and some fish that are. A fish that was new to me that they keep catching is called an incanoe. So, like, the French word in canoe, like, unknown. And I haven't looked it up to see what to do with it, but apparently it's Like a fattier fish. But I'm very curious, and they look beaut. It's a beautiful fish. Every time they catch one, I get really excited. I'm like, oh, you're good. If you can keep it from. Away from the animals. What?

[A]

Right. Did you see them cook it on the show?

[C]

Yeah, but, you know, it's a lot of, like, boiling in water because they're trying not to get sick. So it's not very interesting cooking. It's. They don't have any seasonings or anything. They can't take, like, oil or salt, as far as I know. So they're just boiling this fish.

[A]

Oh, God, yes. But they don't heat up a rock and make like a.

[C]

These are not cooks. Right. They're just trying to surviving for $500,000.

[A]

Right, right. Okay.

[C]

But in Canoe, that's. That's something I'm going to research a bit more.

[B]

I don't boiled fatty fish sounds like the.

[C]

I know that sounds terrible.

[D]

I don't know what you're talking about. Sounds great.

[C]

Tamar, what is your relationship to the Joy of Cooking? Did you grow up in a Joy of Cooking household, or was there some other book that your parents used?

[A]

Well, my mom was very. She was really a Claudia Rodin person. She got really excited. And Paula Wolfert sort of like the Mediterranean foods brought to, you know, a kind of, like, American audience. But we always had it around. Like, I've never lived in a place without it. And I think that our scones were from the first Joy of Cooking. And I know that that's where my cornbread has always been from, although I have now it's a little bit adapted. But I think it was that scones and cornbread were like the. I would see it get opened up for those. And then everything else was kind of Middle Eastern and still is. That's her favorite food. But here was the cornbread thing. So. Hold on. Do you do no sugar? Because I do 100% cornmeal.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

And. And so much fat.

[B]

Mm.

[C]

But do you do fat in the batter or just a lot in the pan combination?

[A]

I do. I forget where I. This might have been Joy cooking. I don't know that. Where you melt it all in the pan in the cast iron, and then you pour some of it into the batter.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And then what is left is the. Is like what greases the pan. But then it's, like, almost as sweet as a New England cornbread, but with the 100% cornmeal of a Southern cornbread. So I don't know where that. Where that came from.

[C]

Yeah, I don't know. I think the current. So there's. There's several recipes for cornbread. In the 2019 edition, there is a southern cornbread, which does not. I think it has an optional 10 gram, like 1 tablespoon of sugar, which I do add because I think it doesn't. It doesn't make it sweet, it just kind of balances it. And then there's a. More. There's my Southern cornbread, which I, I wrote this recipe. It's more of like a. It's not really hot water cornbread, but basically I, I do. I boil water and pour it over the cornmeal and let it sit for several hours and then add milk and eggs and bake it in a hot skillet.

[D]

And that's. And that's specifically because you wanted to have a way of dealing with like, kind of the coarse. Coarse.

[C]

Yeah, a more coarse cornmeal. Because for a while we couldn't get. We were having a really hard time finding nice, finely ground cornmeal. And it was really gritty. And so that boiling and soaking process really helps make the cornbread. It's almost like a custardy texture once it's baked. But then there is a northern. More northern style. So there's kind of variations.

[A]

Yeah, I think, I think I ended up combining two. But I totally agree with you. I think I kind of want that little parenthetical saying it's worth getting the best cornmeal you can. Of course, of course. If you can't still make cornbread.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But then it's also worth saying, I think if you're just using the better the cornmeal, the less sugar you need. And I think if you're using supermarket cornmeal, you know, I've done. Done tons of times and still do. I don't. Haven't found good cornmeal here in Spain. Yeah. Not because it doesn't exist, just because I haven't, like, focused on it, but I think when it's not super flavorful, you actually do need more sugar.

[C]

I agree. And I almost wonder. This is a little bit of a pet theory. I haven't really researched it at all, but I almost wonder if the reason northern cornbread is like, tends to be sweeter and more cakey is that the corn isn't as fresh or it has to be shipped or it's just not as.

[A]

I love this theory. I think. Let's just.

[C]

Yeah, let's go with that.

[D]

Maybe. Maybe a similar origin Story for cracklins in the cornmeal. Like to add in the cornbread. Yeah, I'm sorry, in the cornbread. You know, just add a bunch of flavor in there to make up for.

[C]

I always think pigs are everywhere though.

[D]

True.

[C]

I don't know that, but I feel like they must be. They're very. They're survivors.

[B]

This leads me into a recipe writing question since I have you all here right now. When you have a suggestion for people and you, like, you want to use really good, you know, cornmeal for this recipe. And I have a recipe that I'm working on right now and I want to recommend that people use really good chocolate. But my editor doesn't really want me to use brand names. She doesn't want me to say, I recommend this particular brand, which is what I did when I wrote the recipe. So how would you sway people to use a certain thing without saying a brand name? Like, would you just say, like high quality? Like what, what are ways that you can suggest something with that? Like. Because I think it's really important, but I totally understand why she doesn't want me to do it.

[D]

Like, I would go with cacao percentage, perhaps, you know, just like 70 or above or. I don't know. What kind of. What did you want to call for?

[B]

Well, so it's a brownie recipe. It's these brownie bites and I, and I. I use like the Ghirardelli chocolate, both the chocolate chips that you chop up and then the powder. And I think if you use like bad chocolate, they taste bad, but if you use the good chocolate, they taste good.

[C]

What do you think, Tamar?

[A]

Well, I thought question and then an opinion follow up question is back to John's, like, so is the powdered chocolate 100% cacao and is it Dutch processed?

[B]

It's Dutch processed, yeah. So I could write it that way. Right.

[A]

Dutch process. If you do any Dutch processed chocolate, I think that will answer it. And what's the percentage of the chips?

[B]

I don't know that I'll have to look.

[D]

I think that Ghirardelli marks chips and stuff like just bittersweet or semisweet or something like that.

[A]

So it's like 80, 72. It's like one of them. 67. One of them is 72 is bitter and extra or bitter and semi. Right. I think if you do it by the process and by the cacao percentage. Yes, I agree that. But I also think this is controversial, which is why I'm leading up to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As though it's Controversial that I think those of us who spend and like this is not a. At all. This opinion is not shared by basically anybody I know in food. And I could tell that from the long sections at the beginning of every cookbook on the kind of olive oil people use and the kind of salt they use. And like, I think there is a prevailing kind of myopia among recipe developers and food centric people and food writers, which makes us think that what we think is so good is that it's necessary to reproduce that in order to get what we want people to get out of our recipes. And I think we're totally wrong. And that in fact what tastes inferior to you, Sarah, when you use what you call bad chocolate, would probably taste amazing to somebody that doesn't regularly make brownies or that hasn't made this recipe before. Because your recipe, I'm saying this without seeing it, like your recipe has a little salt and that's really nice. And your recipe also makes sure that it has a little crackly top, which is not necessarily true of, I don't know, pills. Who makes the Duncan Hines? Whatever makes that, you know, like the standard one. And so I think what I, or what I do, and granted I don't like write recipes exactly for a living, but I tend to think that if what somebody makes is like even 70% as good as what I make, that's a hundred percent success. And it just doesn't matter because I think most of the food out there is so bad and also that it feels so wonderful to make anything, anything. And that anything you make yourself tastes so good and that the pride associated with it is so valuable that it just doesn't matter.

[B]

I think you're so right. And thank you for saying that, because I did, I was like, I did at salt and I did make sure that the tops are beautiful and crinkly. And I had to do, I had to test like 10 different recipes to make sure those things happened. And I also used it with not very good chocolate and they still tasted good. They just weren't as good as the final version.

[A]

Right. But it's like this funny thing where I think we totally understandably think that what people are buying when they buy our ideas about food is like, has to be the best that we have to offer. And I just think, I just think that's very egocentric and not intentionally, like it's fine, it makes sense, but that in fact people are just buying a way to make their lives a little bit better, a little bit happier, a little bit More full or creative or sweet. And so whatever version of it. Like, I know that people have made so many of the things that I have put out there with rancid olive oil. I know it, because go into any house and the olive oil is rancid. But, like, I still don't make such a big deal out of it because I'm like. But they. They're happy. They're happier because they just made food and their kids are so excited and they're like, you know, dad, I made this, or mom made this, you know, whatever it is. And that's okay.

[C]

You're tapping into, like, I think, well, for one, taste is so variable. Like, what tastes amazing to me. Another person might not be able to tell the difference between the high quality and the not so high quality chocolate, but you're also talking about the feeling of just having made something and which is a reward in and of itself. And that's. That also colors how you taste the food. Like, if you feel good about what you made, it's probably going to taste better than it actually is.

[B]

You make brownies for anybody, they're going to be stoked.

[C]

They're going to be stoked.

[A]

Yeah. And you as the writer, need to be able or not need to, but you should. You maybe can experiment with allowing yourself to disconnect your, you know, the ideal version of it, which you're making available by putting it out there, and all of the different versions, which could still be rewarding.

[C]

I also sometimes think saying calling for good quality something or other, like good quality olive oil, good quality chocolate, without describing what that means can be alienating. Because if you don't know what good quality chocolate means, you're like, oh, suddenly I feel ignorant and discouraged, you know?

[D]

Well, I mean, price should be a good marker of. Of that, but, yeah, no, I can see why that might be a little off putting, but saying, like, you know, good chocolate shines in this recipe, I feel like that's. That's, like, not such a strong.

[C]

No, I think that's. I think that's okay.

[D]

Okay, good. Making notes on the style sheet.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, we're big fans of Rombauer Vineyards. They're sponsoring today's episode, actually. But honestly, their wines are fantastic, with so many joy of cooking dishes. My current favorite is their Sauvignon Blanc with our Khao Soi Gai recipe. That bright, crisp wine cuts right through the richness of the curry.

[B]

It's perfect.

[D]

Oh, absolutely. Being Oregonians, we take our pinots seriously. We're Excited about their new Pinot Noir, which pairs beautifully with our chicken jambalaya. The wine has enough body to stand up to all those bold creole flavors.

[C]

If you want to try these pairings yourself, head to rombauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15% off. That's R O M B A U E R.com joy joy or code joypod

[E]

all caps must be 21 to enjoy.

[C]

Do you have a signature dish? So something, for example, that if you're invited to a potluck, you tend to bring, or something that, when you're not sure what to make, you can, like, fall back on?

[A]

No. One of the few somehow successes, like a true success of my life, is that somehow I've gotten people, like, writ large to feel comfortable asking me to bring whatever they really need to a potluck. So I. I never have to do that thing. For some reason. I probably, like, doth protest so much that, like, it's no problem. I will happily do anything. It takes me no time. It'll. Five minutes. It's nothing. I have all the ingredients at home. I'm making it anyway, you know, like, I do something go, like, I could really use a salad and Mac and cheese or, like, whatever it is. People just ask me for it. And. And I think it is because I, like, make it sound like I. I'm like, I dream of genie. You know, I entertain large groups of people in a pathological way now that I live in a tiny apartment in Madrid. Like, our apartment is one room. There are two doors in the whole apartment, and one of them is the front door. And then we've got a door to the one bathroom.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And the rest. Yeah, it's like, there's a curtain over there and some, like, there's a ladder over there. It's small, but we have 12 people over here regularly, which is how I know it's pathological. But I. I mean, I rely on the same stuff that I always have, which is mostly beans. I think you guys, we've.

[C]

We've talked about beans, about beans, and

[A]

that is the cornerstone, I think, of all of my pathological entertaining. Because it is so simple and because people so often eat bad beans that when you serve them good beans, they're over the moon and somehow, like, don't notice that all you're serving them is, like, beans and some pounded parsley and olive oil and, you know, bread and, like, yeah, whatever. Not. Not very much. I still. I just make beans all the time since the move.

[D]

Are you kind of Leaning towards one type of bean now that you're shopping in Spain.

[A]

No, I mean, I make. Well, that's not true. The garbanzos. They eat so many garbanzos in Madrid. Garbanzo is the Madrid bean of choice. And I think because of that, they seem to me to be particularly good. You can get them anywhere and they. Yeah, they're just great. So I do make chickpeas or garbanzos a lot. Also on the things being delicious, but not, you know, 100% ideal. The jarred beans here are amazing. They're not canned, they're jarred. And that seems to make a big difference. And they're also properly salted. I don't know, they just taste great. So on a, like, just on a day to day basis, I saute a lot of like garlic and olive oil and throw in a little whatever, you know, leftover cherry tomatoes and put in a jar of beans. Any beans, including lentils. This is crazy. I have purchased cooked lentils, which I think I have probably sworn I would never do.

[C]

Are those jarred as well?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Nice. Yeah, I've seen the canned ones, but they're very sludgy. Yeah, they're not very good.

[A]

I also have just always been like. Because they don't have to be soaked at all and they cook in so little time. You know, they're like, they're like pasta. I mean, not more time than pasta, but whatever. You've got 35 minutes and you've got fantastic lentils. I was like, why would you ever. And then now regularly at 1:30, I'm hungry, walking home from the place that I do my writing. I stop at a grocery store and buy a jar of lentils and then do, you know, olive oil and garlic and some chilies and put in the jar of lentils and eat like a king. Never say you're not ever gonna do anything because I think I have actually said like, I would never buy pre cooked lentils.

[C]

I remember when we were on your podcast, we talked a little bit about beans and like salting them. And I still remember. I think we had been doing a lot of research about it and I was like, you know, I think when you add the salt later, a little later, during, and you're like, no, you saw them from the beginning. And I feel like I've come around to your method because now I just dump the salt in from the very beginning. If it makes a difference. It's tiny and it seasons them much better.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So that.

[A]

Okay, so you were about. Now we can figure out when it was. It was pre pandemic. And you either. I mean, you guys were like coming out with, I think, the most recent addition and you had put in it to salt halfway through. Yes, I think that. And I think I yelled at you.

[C]

You were nice. You yelled nicely.

[A]

I did, but I was like, just. You're. You're perpetuating a myth. You can, you guys can stop this. You are. You among all people can stop this.

[D]

We need more people yelling at us. To be honest, I. I think we

[C]

were influenced by Harold McGee who was like, you know, we've done tests and they actually. It is. There is a little bit of a different. But I don't think it's enough of a difference. I think it's one of those things where maybe there is a difference. Maybe there is a very tiny difference, but not enough to notice.

[A]

But to be clear, the difference would be in terms of cooking time, not in terms of. But you know what? Harold McGee, you probably know this now, but he puts his salt in the soaking water.

[C]

He does. Yeah. That's been an update.

[A]

Yeah, he's just. He's like, no, I just go full on in the soaking water. Don't even change the water, and then stick it on the stove. Yeah, we've all. We all see, that's what I'm saying. We like, we evolve and we grow and that's great because it would be boring. Yeah. Otherwise.

[C]

Yeah, No, I feel good about it.

[B]

I know you guys have talked about cooking beans on this podcast. I wasn't on the episode, but I. And this may be a insane way to cook beans, but I always put them in the Dutch oven. In the oven and cook them. I never cook them on the stovetop.

[C]

Perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think. Right. Great.

[B]

Great. That's how I do it every time.

[D]

We did get. I remember this was maybe a decade ago. We. We ended up getting. I guess it was an email or it might have actually been a letter from somebody who. We had a slow cooker bean recipe, a bean chili recipe in the book that used pinto beans.

[C]

No, it was kidney beans.

[D]

Well, no, they. They substituted. They substituted kidney beans. They substituted kidney beans. And it, you know, like the recipe never. It didn't have them coming to a boil for very long and they got like very, very sick. So with kidney beans, you do actually want, you know, to boil them for

[C]

like 10 minutes and then, then you could put them in the oven or whatever.

[B]

But like doing them from like bean. Dried bean form, they need to Come to a boil.

[C]

Yes. Kidney beans in particular have a lot of this. I think it's an anti nutrient. It's called phytohemaglutinin or something like that.

[D]

I think it's lectin or it is a type of lectin or. I don't know.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

It's an anti nutrient.

[B]

There's something.

[C]

It can make you feel really bad if you don't bring them to a boil because it is heat. It's sensitive to heat, so it will degrade, and after like, 10 minutes of boiling, it'll be fine.

[B]

I never usually do kidney beans. I. I usually do, like, you know, black beans, any kind of white bean. Those. I. I don't think I've ever. I do pinto beans. Any beans aren't on my radar.

[A]

Do you first bring them to a boil before you put them in the oven?

[B]

I. I do. On the stove top. Yeah. But I mean, if I was doing kidney beans, I'd make sure, like, they were really raging and then. Yeah, and then I put.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Then put them in there.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. That was a new one for me when we got that note, but it's apparently a thing, so, yeah, we updated the book accordingly.

[C]

Tamara, I wanted you to talk a little bit about your latest book, feast on your Life, which is lovely and so beautiful. And I was really, actually really nervous this morning to have to have you on the show because I feel like you're such a hero of mine, like a food hero of mine, that I was like, I can't believe she's on our podcast. And what if I ask a stupid question? But it's a beautiful book, and I wanted you to talk a little bit about, like, what was the impetus behind Feast on your Life, like, what made you decide to write this book?

[A]

I'm overjoyed to be on this podcast, and I'm glad that you got over it. I was really depressed. I was really depressed, and I felt like everything was kind of terrible and like I had not done anything useful with my life and like, I had missed the boat and a thousand other metaphors for how I think we all feel at some point or at many points, and particularly if you're a person who makes things. You know, it's like there's a whole lead up. I had just published a book the previous year, and there's like, this whole lead up to when the thing comes out, a new hot sauce, a new edition, and you're so focused on it, and you're staying up late and you're looking at proofs and you're. And then you do a tour or whatever it is, and then. And then it's over. You need to figure out what to do with yourself next. And in that period after my prior book, I really felt like I just don't know what to do or what I've done and why I've done any of it. And I started a gratitude journal, which I hadn't wanted to do because I felt cheesy and put off doing. And then as soon as I did it, I was like, of course. Of course this works. Like, of course recognizing what you have works to smooth over some of this. You know, these really, really sharp edges. And then my. Actually my book agent and I were talking about Ross Gay's book of delights, in which he writes essays about a delight he experiences in the world every day. And she asked if I. If I'd considered doing it in the kitchen. And I hadn't. But at that point, it just was still a form of sort of self therapy to try to record as many good things as I could. It wasn't like I didn't see them around me, but I didn't feel like I had a hand in any of. I just felt really kind of. I mean, I think that's how depression is. Yeah. So I started writing down one beautiful or meaningful thing that I found in or near the kitchen a day, you know, and she just said, do it for a week and then let's look at it. And it felt great. I never thought it was going to be. It always felt like a pretty small project, like a pretty small book. But then it also felt like, yeah, what a meaningful organizing principle for anything, whatever it turns into, to sort of start just by noticing what's good. And that, yeah, that became this book.

[C]

I really wanted to read the book as you wrote it, which is one bit a day, like one day at a time. But I had to read it all before this podcast. So now I'm going to go back and just try to read one one day at a time. Because I think they're also. Most of them are really rich. And I think you can find a lot in every single entry.

[D]

I think that there's a lot of points of connection with an everlasting meal. And I was just wondering if you felt that way and what you think are like the kind of the strongest connecting threads between these two projects.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's funny, like, any book you write after a book you've already written feels like a follow up to that book. So both my second and my third books to me felt like follow ups to my first book. But then when I. But then when I've kind of looked at it from the outside, this one now seems most similar to the first in that it is, I guess my first book is really a very deeply felt book and I. And my second and third are, I think, good and like, definitely the Leftovers Cookbook, I think is so. I don't know, it seems useful and helpful and I've, you know, and I hope not annoyingly written and I hope sometimes funny, you know, but this was a very feelings ebook and so. And, and my first one, you know, wasn't. It was really practical, but it was really deeply felt. And I think in the sense that it sort of came from the same place in me, like the. The kind of deep, gooey place both books came, or at least some of both books emerged from. Whatever deep, gooey, ineffable place is most hidden. And I think that is true only of the first and the fourth, for sure.

[D]

Just felt like, you know, you were kind of giving the theory, if you will, in an Everlasting Meal, and then this is more of like put, you know, how is this put into practice? And also with kind of like, of course, like a much more personal kind of interiority to it, I suppose. I. I don't know if that makes sense.

[A]

I mean, that's so nice. Of course, you articulated it better than what I. I had gooey.

[C]

I like gooey.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I think you said something in An Everlasting Meal about, you know, how starting to cook, you just. You simply begin. And, and that, that seems to be a recurring theme in this book where you have moments where you're like, I don't know what. What I'm going to do for dinner, or I have to cook for 10 people and I don't know what's going to happen. But then you just are like, okay, I can't see an inch in front of my face, but I'm going to go in there and I'm going to start working. And then you start finding things and ingredients you forgot you had or ideas come about as you're working, which I just love so much because I feel like that is. That is kind of what we get bogged down in a lot of times. Like we just don't know where to start. But the tree. The trick is just starting. That's all that you have to do is start.

[D]

Yeah, that's it.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

No, no, it is so hard. Like, I, I, before I started writing this, I remember I was in Hudson with a. Visiting with a friend who was visiting, who is a set designer, you know. And so like, and it's. So she works on this, on a creative cycle of making something and then seeing it and then deflating. And I was telling her about my sense of listlessness and directionlessness. And she said that one of her best mentors had told her that that's gonna happen and you just have to hold your nerve. And she, and that sounded very much like, keep us, you know, stiff upper lip or chin up. When she said it, it didn't feel useful. I felt like you're literally saying just like, grin and bear it, hold your nerve. But then as I, as I wrote the book, I realized how many different. That in some way it's like 365 variations on hold your nerve. I mean, a tricky thing is, and maybe that's the project of this book, is that it needs to feel different than somebody saying hold your nerve. Because that does feel very, like, martial.

[C]

And well, it's like, how do I do that? What does that mean?

[A]

Yeah, and that's. And I think I use that phrase once in the book at some point when it finally kind of started to make sense to me, because what it meant was what, what you said it meant. Begin, stand up for, you know, stand facing the stove. Like, that's what it means. That's what hold your nerve means, you know, stand facing the stove, begin, continue. Sorry, keep going. You can't stop yet.

[C]

Not quite yet.

[A]

So that's sort of. That was that. It is all very continuous. And I think that that basically what, what we try to do in our various projects to help people cook is find kind, compassionate ways of, of saying, turn back to the stove. Stand up again. You know, light a burner without it even. I think holding your nerve is like, way too abstract. Like, what is my nerve? What am I holding it with? You know, And I think less abstract is put on a pot of water to boil. Or remember that as soon as you start smelling things, as soon as you start cutting anything and the volatile oils escape, you will smell. And once you smell, you will be changed. And once you are changed, another decision will avail itself to you.

[C]

So kind of get out of your head a bit.

[B]

We always, in our family, and Dirk says this to me a lot, is to just give things a go and then don't stand in your own way. And so, like, anytime I'm feeling like stuck with, like, writing or things like, that. That's just sort of the language that we use to keep. Keep it going so that we can keep things moving along. And I really like the way that you're describing, like, as you go through projects and when you are in it, you're, like, stoked and psyched and you feel really good, and then you, like, go through it, and it's kind of this roller coaster ride because then you're done, and then you're like, okay, now what? Like, now it happens. And I'm just wondering how you're feeling now, because now this book is out in the world, and where are you at in that process and cycle back in the nadir.

[A]

How do you say that? Nadir. Is that right? Nadir.

[C]

I think that's right. Nadir.

[A]

In the wallowing bit, certainly. But it's not as harsh because I'm in a new place, and so I am kind of constantly engaged. Like, you know, it's almost as though I'm cooking all the time because there's so much to see and smell and hear, but I don't know what I'm doing.

[C]

Well, now that you found your fish place, then what's the next. The next place?

[A]

Yeah. No, no, but that's not. They don't pay me for that, so there will have to be a more remunerative quest. I mean, the reason I write the Kitchen Shrink is because I really like being able to give people what they need in the kitchen. And I am not right now at a moment where I feel like there's. I just don't want to give people something that they don't need, really. You know, like, I really like getting culinary queries and answering them. And, you know, again, that's. It's free, so that's also not remunerative. But I do enjoy doing it because I feel like there's just so much out there. There's so much advice, and there's so much everything that I don't know if I want to add to the clutter, but I. When somebody asks me a question, I want to answer it. So that's, you know, that gives me great joy.

[C]

Yeah, I think we felt really similarly after the 2019 edition came out. Well, there were a lot of complicating factors around that, which was that it was a project we had. I mean, a lot of people work on big projects for years, but, like, it felt like by the time the book came out, I was so tired that I, like, couldn't imagine doing book tour. And then we did book tour, and Then I was like, okay, now we get to take a breath. And then our last book tour event was the Sunday before lockdown for Covid.

[A]

So it was like, March.

[C]

March 7th. Yeah, I think our event may have been, like, March 12th or something like that.

[D]

Yeah, it was in Seattle at Book Larder. Yeah, Book Larder. The hotel that we were at was completely empty. And, you know, we were headed to the airport to go back to Portland, and Seatac was empty.

[C]

Well, it was kind of a frenetic.

[D]

Yeah, there was a sense even more

[C]

than normal in the airport. It was very eerie. And then we got home and everything closed, and it was just. I think we were dealing with, like, feeling like this project is over. What now? And there's this huge hole. But then there was also, like, all this panic and fear. And then John was diagnosed with cancer, like, a month after. Or a month. A couple of months after lockdown started.

[D]

Two months.

[C]

And then it was, like, just survival mode for, like, a couple of years.

[D]

Yeah. And Megan was working during that, you know, while I was going through chemo and. And all of that. I was kind of the one that was, you know, supposed to be putting dinner on the table. So, I don't know. You know, I read in this book about, like, how you kind of are in. Had similar moments of exasperation where before you got into the kitchen, you were not really sure what you were going to be doing. And then you get in there, and then all of a sudden it's all clicking and stuff. And, I mean, it's. It's rockstar shit, because, like, I certainly did not. That was not kind of where I was at. I. You know, I just still didn't have quite. I guess the cognitive load was a lot. And so that's where I really, like, leaned on recipes at that point.

[C]

Well, we were having this conversation earlier because I was like, you know, I don't think Tamar has written, like, a traditional cookbook. It seems like you, like, I love your writing so much because you're describing the act of cooking and what that feels like and what it feels like to eat the food. And I don't know, like, it's a lot of feelings. It's a lot of, like, process, which I think is the key to learning how to cook in a sustainable way. But how do you get from recipe crutches to no recipe or maybe they coexist? Maybe sometimes you use recipes and sometimes you just wing it. But, yeah, like, what you're saying is sometimes you just want somebody to tell you what to do, because you can't think of it.

[D]

I almost felt like it's not even just like road, like one step than the other. It's like I actually got some. You know, it's like having. It's like, you know, the path has been. Somebody has walked the path before you. So, you know, kind of where you're going is going to eventually end up with something that's edible. But also, you know, it's. It's like you get to have a conversation with the recipe in that you get to decide whether or not you want to skip a step or add some things and. And whatnot. And that's kind of where. Where I was at with. With that.

[A]

What felt the most sort of engaging and what felt the most supportive. What were the best conversations that you had during that really not great time

[D]

following somebody else's recipes. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Just not. Not my. Not my own.

[C]

I'm trying to think what we were eating a lot of.

[A]

No, no, no.

[C]

That's what I mean.

[A]

I meant which recipes? Like, I loved. I loved you describing it as. By following the recipe, you were in a conversation with them, which sounds like in a very incredibly lonely time, an experience of less loneliness. And so I was wondering which, what tastes and what recipes you associate with the benefits of that company now.

[D]

Oh, man, I should have feel like

[C]

I prepared for this. I feel like I remember we ate a lot of beans. We ate a lot of beans. You would make sopes a lot. So base and beans and salsa.

[D]

Yeah. We are blessed with three sisters next to them all, and so had a nice source for fresh masa. So definitely a lot of that. A lot of salsa making.

[C]

I've blocked out a lot of that.

[D]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

Well, I don't remember a lot of it.

[D]

That's exactly what I was. That's what I was going to say is that it's kind of all a blur at this point.

[B]

And I think following those recipes kept your brain busy because you guys had so much going on. It was overwhelming. It gave you something, like, good to focus on and something that wasn't. Wasn't your cookbook, it wasn't your recipe writing, but it was these other people just bringing you these recipes that they wrote and you could just like, focus on that and that. That was like keeping you through, pushing you through.

[D]

Yeah. Roz Lapel at Scribner, she kept in touch with us and kept on trying to get me motivated to do, you know, to like, maybe do a joy cooking side Project of some kind to keep us busy and to keep deep, you know, interest in the brand or whatever, and couldn't manage that.

[C]

Yeah. That was unthinkable. That was not happening. That was not. Simply. Not simply not getting it. Yeah.

[B]

Right now.

[A]

Nope. No, no. There is a writer who has a podcast which describes basically everyone who has ever lived in New York. I just described every woman in New York, but her husband got Covid in the first round of COVID and almost died and was, you know, just. She wrote about one of, like, she. She was one of. She wrote one of the early accounts of the. The horror of that unknown. And it was really, like, touch and go with him. He did survive. He came home, you know, weeks later, but after having been intubated and having to, you know, start walking again and all that, and she. During that period, she made Alison Roman's shallot pasta, like, a lot. It was that. There was that time where there was a run on bucatini.

[C]

Yes, I remember that well.

[A]

And somehow there was something about whatever that recipe was giving people when they really needed. They needed clear instruction, support. Whatever it was, they were getting it from that. And I remember her telling me that, and I found that really meaningful.

[C]

Yeah, it struck a nerve for some reason.

[D]

Yeah. The bucatini shortage struck a nerve in that it brought out a bunch of bucatini haters.

[A]

What?

[C]

I just remember we have met some bukatini haters, I'm sad to say.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

I feel like there might have been actually been some published articles on how bucatini is and all that, but I'd have to check the article.

[A]

There's no reason.

[B]

There's no reason.

[A]

Before this, I remember reading some interview with Allison Roman where she talked about how she hated scones, and I was like, dude, don't hate scones. Like, you don't. That's not a thing to hate.

[C]

Neither is the bikini.

[A]

No. Like, you don't have to choose it at the pastry counter. You could say, like, I'll have the biscuit, not the scone. Like, that's cool. But just even bothering to fight that fight, man.

[C]

No, I. I do think that, you know, having to put out a lot of content, which is what writers and artists and everyone feels like they have to do now, kind of incentivizes people having really strong opinions about things that, I don't know, like, yeah, don't order the scone if you don't like it.

[A]

I don't know if I think. Well, I have strong opinions about what it is that incentivizes people to do that. But I think it is up to any person who makes something, whether they want to make content or want to make what it is they have the talent and ability and gift to make. But I think just don't hate things if it's not helpful.

[B]

We always, in the social work world just said that there was enough hate in the world and that we would only put out things that we loved. So you wouldn't talk about the things that you were sick of or the things that you saw all the time or the things that were bad or the things that you were. No, you would just. We would only talk about the things that we loved. And I feel like that is, like, the stance that I have taken in my life, because it's just like, it makes things better that way. There are enough people that hate everything. Like, I. I just try to be like, we're. I'm digging it. You know, that positive vibe.

[A]

What if. Hold on. What if the quote unquote Bucatini haters were actually deeply passionate about Bucatini and so sad that they couldn't get their.

[B]

They were broken.

[C]

They were brokenhearted at that.

[A]

They were trying to actually, like, do a thing where it's like the. The fascists launch a bomb from behind the rebel lines so that they can then fight back. Like, what if they were actually posing?

[D]

They were a false flag.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. What if that's what they were doing? And actually they're just. It was just. I mean, certainly greed, because everybody should get Bucatini, not just them. But I wonder if maybe they were like Heathcliff and Cathy. They were in Wuthering Heights. They were just maybe destroyed by their passion.

[C]

Yeah. Trying to find a way to be less disappointed by saying, actually, I don't like it at all. I hate it for these reasons.

[A]

Sour grapes. I was just thinking maybe we're strategic, so maybe. Sour grapes, yes. But maybe strategically they're trying to get people to be a little bit more recalcitrant about the bikini trend so that the shelves can start restocking it. They can get their fix.

[D]

It's ingenious. I don't think it worked, but, you

[C]

know, well, it's back on shelves now.

[D]

I mean, that's true. We have the Bucatini haters to thank, obviously.

[B]

Thank you, everyone.

[A]

Yeah, thank you.

[D]

Thank you.

[E]

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[C]

I have so many more questions, but we have to answer our caller question for the week.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And this week we're talking about cheese. Sarah, can you please read the question?

[B]

Sure can. I have listened to every episode and I remember an episode where you talked about Megan's favorite cheeses. Now I can't find it. Can you tell me which episode it was or which cheeses they were? I can answer which episode it was. It was episode 11. So you can go back and listen to it or. Megan, do you just want to talk?

[C]

I will tell you about the cheeses I was talking about then. So we, I don't remember why we bought all these, these cheeses. Other than that, I can't help myself.

[D]

Yeah, that's the answer.

[C]

There was one called Hallerhacker which I think, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. It's C H A L L E R Hawker. It's a Swiss alpine cheese with a

[D]

very, very disturbing image of a child on the rind. On the rind. That maybe if, if we post about this episode on Instagram, I will try and find it. Yeah, but it is, it is interesting.

[C]

Yeah, it's very, it's a little grotesque. I don't know if they meant it that way, but the cheese is very good. It is a wine washed cheese and it's really nutty with like a little bit of oniony ness to it. That's really nice. It's like got a kind of savory quality. But I love alpine cheeses so much because a lot of, because of the texture, because they're so like the paste is so smooth and buttery and dense. So that was a really great cheese. We also had Isle of Mull cheddar. It's a Scottish cheese. It's interesting because the cows are, it's grass, they're grass fed. But also they eat spent whiske whiskey grains from a nearby distillery. And I do feel like you can pick that up in the milk, in the cheese. It has like a funkiness, like a mustardiness to it that's just a little bit different of bitterness. That's not quite what you'd find in like normal Cheddar's. It's also, if you watched Succession, it's Peter's special cheese in the episode where they're visiting their mom in the Bahamas or in the Caribbean. But he has like his special cheese in the refrigerator and it's Isle of Mull Cheddar. That was a fun little rabbit hole to go down. It's famous.

[D]

Haven't thought about that show in so long.

[C]

Another cheese we had was called Rue Ardoise and this one's interesting because I've tried to find more about it online after the fact and I can find almost nothing. There's almost no proof that this cheese exists.

[B]

Well, sometimes that happens where it's just like they only made this one. You know, maybe they didn't make one wheel of cheese, but maybe just like not very many and then you can't get it anymore. It's like limited, limited edition. That's what I like about the cheeses and the cheeseburgers. When we do those big cheese shows, sometimes I'll find a favorite and then I come back for it next year and then they're like, nope, that was it. That was just the one time deal.

[C]

It does seem like a very labor intensive cheese because it is shaped like a, like a tire. It's round with a hole in the middle and it's ashed. It's an ashed bloomy cheese. So it's got that kind of white rind on it and the nice layer of ash that almost looks bluish. And it's very, it's a goat cheese. So it's, it's super goaty. It's very French. It's extremely soft and creamy. Like the, the texture of the cheese all the way through is just juicy, gooey, like, delicious. Have you heard of this cheese?

[A]

No, but I. I could listen to you talk about it forever.

[B]

Well, and you said you couldn't remember why you brought those cheeses in. In our early episodes, we did tasting segments, right? And we would taste local products and local food. And you brought in those cheeses as part of a tasting segment to tell people to go to Cowbell Creamery, which is our local cre. That's why we were doing that. We don't do that anymore because then our guests just had to sit there and not only hear us talk about things, but also not be able to eat them. So you wouldn't be able to eat these cheeses with us. You'd have to sit there and watch us eat it. So we cut that segment.

[A]

Thank you for that.

[B]

You're welcome. Do you have any favorite cheeses or things you like to cook with cheese or any cheese things you want to share with our listeners?

[A]

Yeah. Okay. I have two. My two cheese things that I want to say are. One, there is a flower covered alpine cheese that I can sometimes get at my regular cheesemonger here that is complete magic. And the what. It's literally. It's literally called, like, flower covered. All I know is it's from the mountains, and I don't know which mountains. I'm in Spain, so probably the Pyrenees. It's probably a Pyrenean. It's a cow's milk cheese. It has like a tome like texture, and it's absolutely caked in dried mountain flowers and thyme.

[C]

Beautiful.

[A]

And I just eat the. I eat the outside, too. And it's just. It's just. It's just amazing. I think it's perfect. I think it's perfect for everything. And then they often don't have it, which makes it even more enticing, obviously. And the other thing that I want to say about cheese is that I wonder if you guys have observed this. Have you noticed that little tiny pasta is having a moment?

[C]

Yes. Like the chini di pepe and. Yeah.

[A]

Pastina and citalini are having a mega moment. Everybody on the interwebs is making little pasta stuff. But I haven't seen anybody make my favorite way to make pastina, which my son hates, but I love. And it's. You take all of your rinds. So, like all of your Parmesan rinds, maybe your Manchego rinds, not goat cheese. Like nothing. Nothing bloomy. All of your hard rinds from kind of oily, cured Cheeses. And you put them in chicken stock, and you cook it until the stock is, like, really milky, and then you strain them out and cook pastina in that. In that really thick, cheesy stock. And it is so amazing. And it's, like, really rich and intense and, like, curative and. And my son hates when I do it because, like. Yeah, but because it just. It's like parmesan in noodle form is what it takes.

[B]

That sounds delicious.

[A]

It's so good. It's so good.

[C]

Are you cooking it with just enough of that water? So is it more like risotto style, or is it like you. You cook it and then drain it?

[A]

No, I cook it. No, I cook it in an amount where there's. There's like, a little liquid left. So in a lot of liquid, there's a little liquid left. And then if there's any leftover, it soaks up all the liquid and there's no liquid. Okay, so more cooking it like soup, but then there's almost no liquid left.

[C]

I'm gonna make that later. We have lots of tiny pasta. I could talk about. I could talk about cheese for so long. I will not do that. Other than to say I'm gonna put in a little plug for maybe. My current favorite cheese I won't say of all time is La Tour, which is an Italian cheese. It's a triple milk cheese. So it's cow, goat, and cheese cheap. It's sold in these cute little pucks that are really wrinkly and, you know, fluffy on the outside. Do you agree with me? I think you like it as well.

[D]

It's fantastic. Especially when our local supermarket would put it on. On sale. It's like, that's like, when it's perfect.

[C]

When it's overripe, it's perfect.

[A]

I was just thinking about how it sort of comp that Latour compensates for the creepy picture on the other cheese because it has that really beautiful picture of the three animals on the. On its label. And it's like, oh, there you are.

[C]

Very pastoral, very peaceful looking.

[D]

I just remember, like, a fancy market opened up, and for a while they, you know, the cheese was the loss leader and they had magical time. It was a magical time. And they had, like, the pucks of latour for, like, $4 a piece.

[C]

Well, it might have a little bit

[D]

more than that, but maybe, like, in my mythological remembrance, it was free.

[C]

Okay, before we close, I wanted to announce this week's Joy Scouts recipe. Since we were just talking about a lot of highbrow kind of more high brow cheeses, although cheese is so not highbrow. But anyway, I wanted to give a low brow recipe for the week. So this week's recipe is the Cheddar cheese ball on page 55. I do recommend shredding your own cheddar rather than buying it shredded. It won't stick together very well. It won't taste very good if you use pre shredded. The recipe has bacon. I think it's optional bacon and horseradish which I recommend both. Also chives. I would add chives and my shaping tip for you is to line a bowl with plastic wrap like a small bowl, pile the cheese inside the plastic wrap and then twist the top of the plastic wrap to shape it into a ball and then put in the fridge and then it'll hold its shape really nicely. Any cheeseball thoughts?

[A]

Tamar that sounds great. I want a cheese ball. Don't look for a Spanish cheese ball.

[C]

Well, if you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you. Sarah. Can you please read the next caller question?

[B]

Can you give your favorite most simple to make Joy of Cooking recipes that maybe have around five ingredients?

[D]

Perfect.

[C]

We will answer that next time. Tamar, before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

[A]

You ah, you can follow me on Instagram at I don't know, tamareadler I think and on Substack I'm the kitchen shrink and you can write me your culinary questions and I will answer them and my most recent book which is

[C]

Feast on your Life and we'll link to all of those in the show notes. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at the joyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about Easy 5 Ingredient Recipes. And don't forget to make this week's recipe Cheddar cheese ball on page 55. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[B]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at Joy of Creation Production House. Thanks to today's producer, Dirk Marshall and Haley Bowers, our audio engineer if you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent media. Please visit Patreon.com the Joy of Creation Production House to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.