We Are Joined At The Table With Anna Brones: Inspired By Sauerkraut

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: "We Are Joined At The Table With Anna Brones: Inspired By Sauerkraut"

Release Date: January 8, 2025
Host/Authors: John Becker, Megan Scott, Shannon Larson
Guest: Anna Bronis

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast, hosted by John Becker, Megan Scott, and Shannon Larson, the team welcomes Anna Bronis, a multifaceted writer, artist, and educator from the Pacific Northwest. The episode delves into the world of fermentation, with a special focus on sauerkraut, while also exploring the intricate relationship between creativity in cooking and art.

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Guest Spotlight: Anna Bronis

Anna Bronis brings a wealth of creativity to the table, being a renowned paper cut artist, author, and the mind behind the "Creative Fuel" newsletter and podcast. She has also contributed her unique papercut illustrations to the 2019 edition of The Joy of Cooking.

• Anna's Introduction to Joy of Cooking:
  • Megan Scott [04:25]: "Today we would like to welcome our guest, Anna Bronis..."
  • Anna Bronis [04:52]: "I'm so excited to be here."

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The Allure of Chanterelles and Mushroom Foraging

Anna shares her enthusiasm for chanterelles, highlighting their abundance this year and how they've inspired her culinary creations.

• Abundance of Chanterelles:

  • Anna Bronis [05:00]: "We've had Chanterelles for dinner like maybe five or six times in the last few weeks."

• Challenges in Mushroom Foraging:

  • Anna Bronis [06:04]: "It's so interesting to think about all these lookalikes because you do still need to be careful and pay attention."

The conversation underscores the joy and caution involved in foraging, emphasizing the need to distinguish edible mushrooms from harmful lookalikes.

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Creativity Through Constraints: Cooking and Art

A significant portion of the episode explores how constraints can fuel creativity, drawing parallels between Anna's papercut illustrations and the art of cooking.

• Constraints Breeding Creativity:

  • Anna Bronis [15:53]: "Constraints really do breed creativity."

• Paper Cutting as Artistic Constraint:

  • Anna Bronis [17:11]: "Paper cutting is the ultimate constraint... you don't have color, you don't have shading, you're removing things."

• Editing Recipes with Minimalism:

  • Megan Scott [18:32]: "How little you can say and still say what you want to say."

Both Anna and the hosts discuss the beauty of simplicity, whether it's in reducing a recipe to its essentials or meticulously crafting a papercut illustration. This segment highlights the value of minimalism in both culinary and artistic endeavors.

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Tasting Segment: Fermented Favorites

The hosts introduce a variety of fermented foods, tying them into the episode's fermentation theme.

• Fermented Samples:

  • Megan Scott [10:57]: "We brought some very ripe kimchi also."

• Pickle Pops Inspiration:

  • John Becker [14:24]: "They were using like flask brine, which is delicious."

The tasting segment serves as a sensory exploration of fermentation, with the hosts sharing personal anecdotes and creative uses for fermented products like pickles and kimchi.

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Deep Dive: Sauerkraut Safety and Usage

A listener named Sarah poses a crucial question about the safety of sauerkraut left out at room temperature for nine days, resulting in increased fizziness and a mushy texture.

• Caller’s Inquiry:

  • Caller [33:07]: "Can you leave kraut out for too long?... Is it okay to eat it?"

• Hosts' Reassurance:

  • Megan Scott [34:04]: "There haven't been any recorded cases of food poisoning coming from fermented foods."
  • Jon Becker [34:32]: "It's totally fine for kraut."

• Texture and Flavor Considerations:

  • Jon Becker [35:14]: "It just gets sharper and funkier over time... the texture can sometimes get slimy."

The hosts collectively reassure listeners about the safety of fermented foods while emphasizing the importance of personal judgment regarding taste and texture. They explore creative ways to utilize overly sour sauerkraut, such as incorporating it into soups or fritters.

• Creative Uses:
  • Jon Becker [37:15]: "We added a recipe for sauerkraut fritters to the last edition..."
  • Megan Scott [37:53]: "It's got kielasa in it and paprika and tomatoes and some potatoes."

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Culinary Adventures and Personal Projects

Anna discusses her current creative projects, including writing a book focused on the concept of "cold" and its various implications in everyday life.

• Upcoming Book on Cold:
  • Anna Bronis [29:57]: "I've been fascinated by what cold does for us mentally, physically, and culturally."

She ties this project back to culinary traditions and the broader cultural significance of temperature in food preparation and preservation.

• Culinary Traditions Related to Cold:
  • Anna Bronis [32:25]: "Hot and cold plays a pretty big role... like with yogurt, ice cream."

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Listener Engagement and Community

The hosts encourage listeners to engage by sharing their cooking stories, questions, and favorite recipes. They highlight the importance of community and shared culinary experiences.

• Engagement Call:
  • Megan Scott [40:01]: "If you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858."

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the hosts sharing their upcoming culinary plans, including canning projects and new recipes, while also promoting Anna's online presence.

• Anna's Online Presence:

  • Anna Bronis [32:42]: "Creative Fuel on Substack... Instagram as Anna Bronis."

• Credits:

  • Megan Scott [44:59]: "Thank you to Kayleen Veach, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer."

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Notable Quotes

• Anna Bronis [05:00]: "We've had Chanterelles for dinner like maybe five or six times in the last few weeks."
• Anna Bronis [15:53]: "Constraints really do breed creativity."
• Megan Scott [34:04]: "There haven't been any recorded cases of food poisoning coming from fermented foods."
• Jon Becker [37:15]: "We added a recipe for sauerkraut fritters to the last edition..."
• Anna Bronis [29:57]: "I've been fascinated by what cold does for us mentally, physically, and culturally."

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Final Thoughts

This episode interweaves personal anecdotes, expert insights, and creative discussions, offering listeners a comprehensive look into the world of fermentation and the creative processes behind cooking and art. Anna Bronis's contributions enrich the conversation, making it a must-listen for culinary enthusiasts and creative minds alike.

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Stay Connected:
Follow The Joy of Cooking Podcast on Instagram and join the conversation by calling 503-395-8858 to share your stories and questions.

Transcript

[Jon Becker]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Hello and welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, art and Joy of Cooking user and fan and kimchi enthusiastic.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co author of the 2019 Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And I make a mean sauerkraut soup.

[Jon Becker]

I am Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. Generally, I have over 10 applications running on my laptop at any given time. Two browsers, perhaps a dozen windows. It's a problem.

[Shannon Larson]

Your intros are getting a little bit weirder every week, and I love it.

[Megan Scott]

He's right, though. I looked at his desktop the other day and I was just like, my brain just stopped working immediately. Like, I can't do it.

[Jon Becker]

Same.

[Megan Scott]

So that's what's going on. Okay.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, this explains so much.

[Megan Scott]

How was your week, Shannon?

[Shannon Larson]

It was really good. Yeah, we did a lot of cooking this week, which was fun weather. You know, it's gray and kind of rainy, so we didn't really leave the house much. We had a friend in town this weekend. It's just been a really nice, nice time. Last night we had some friends over to just hang out with her and we did homemade tomato soup and a flight of grilled cheeses. So we had three different grilled cheese types and, like, cut them into little bits and so everybody could have, like, you know, one had caramelized onions and yeah. Top the tomato soup with some crispy chanterelles that a coworker had given me. Yeah, it was honestly really fun and also pretty easy.

[Megan Scott]

So, yeah, hot tip.

[Jon Becker]

Wow. Grilled cheese flight sounds like a good alternative to doing like the, you know, three or four cheese grilled cheese or.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, yeah. Each one had one cheese, spicy, sweet, and herby. So.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, no, you're respecting the cheese.

[Shannon Larson]

Exactly. That's what it's all about. What about you guys?

[Megan Scott]

Well, we went to the coast this week, so for those who don't live in Oregon, it's not the beach, it's the coast. We don't do beaches here. We just have a coast. And it was really just to get a change of scenery. And yeah, we went on a really nice hike, saw some elk just grazing in the meadow. So beautiful. And we also got to go by our favorite smoked salmon place, Barnacle Bills in Lincoln City. So we picked up a bunch of smoked salmon there, which was awesome.

[Shannon Larson]

Barnacle Bills is great.

[Megan Scott]

It's the best.

[Jon Becker]

Really is family tradition at this point. Been enjoying their smoked salmon for. Well, since I was a little kid.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, because your dad used to go and. Or he would like ship it to himself or something. What was he. What did he do?

[Jon Becker]

I mean, he got other people to ship it to him. Because Barnacle Bills, for the longest time, they would not. They would not ship. Things have changed. They have like some retort packaged products and yeah, highly recommend if you're ever in the Lincoln City area. But yeah, we kind of focused on soup. I guess when we were at the coast, it was a little bit rainy. We had one day of sunshine.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

But first night was like minestrone, because.

[Megan Scott]

You can kind of just make that with whatever veggies you have and then you just need some pasta and. Yeah, so we did that. We were also just working within the confines of someone else's kitchen, which is always a little bit of a challenge. So what pots do we have? What utensils do we have? What things are missing from the pantry?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, there was a Dutch oven there that was like pristine.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, it was new. So new and shiny. Yeah, it was really.

[Jon Becker]

I forgot what they looked like before. Yeah, I mean, it made me feel like we need to clean ours. Like a deep clean.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, I probably need to do the.

[Jon Becker]

Same thing, but yeah. What? Caldo verde. That was another good one.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Very simple.

[Megan Scott]

Today we would like to welcome our guest, Anna Bronis. Ana is a writer, artist and educator based in the Pacific Northwest. She works as a paper cut artist, hand cutting illustrations from single pieces of paper, and is the author of several books. She produces Creative Fuel, a newsletter and podcast and is the founder of Creative Fuel Collective. She was also one of the illustrators for the 2019 edition of Joy of Cooking. Ana, welcome to the show.

[Ana Bronis]

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Megan Scott]

Ana, what is. What is bringing you joy right now in the kitchen? What are you doing?

[Ana Bronis]

Oh, well, I loved that you guys mentioned chanterelles because I live near where I grew up, near my parents property and it's very forested property and we usually get like maybe two or three chanterelles in the fall. We have our favorite spots, spots where we keep an eye out for, but they just have been so robust this year. I think we've had Chanterelles for dinner like maybe five or six times. Oh, that's in the last few weeks. And we just had, we just put some chanterelles on a pizza on Friday night. So I feel like just the color and just finding them and like trying to be on chantrelle hunt in the forest and keeping your eyes peeled. It's just been like my favorite thing for the last few weeks.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, they're so beautiful. We were, when we were at the coast this week, we were trying to find some in the woods, but it was a. I think it's a little too wet. Wet and cold at this point. We found some look alikes, but nothing. No, no actual chanterelles.

[Shannon Larson]

They've been, they've been crazy this year though. Like in general, I've just seen so many people picking so many.

[Ana Bronis]

They've definitely. They've gotten very waterlogged by this point.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ana Bronis]

But I don't, I actually don't know why there have been so many. I, I keep meaning to ask. I have a good friend who actually runs a mushroom company and sells to local restaurants and I keep meaning to ask him like what the, what the ideal conditions were this year that, that made for that kind of an abundance. But I sort of also don't necessarily care what the reasons are. I just happen to be in that moment.

[Megan Scott]

Exactly. Do you like, do you find the yellow foots as well?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, it's funny because we were just. I was just texting with a friend the other night and he had just found some yellow foots and I actually haven't seen any of those, but we did find one last week and now I can't remember what it was called, but it was kind of a lookalike, but it was actually a non edible. So I think what's so interesting with Chantrel, because I always joke it's like that and morels are like the two mushrooms that I can confidently. But I was like, it is so interesting to think about all these lookalikes because it's like you do still need to be careful and pay attention. Right. For sure. That's a good, good reminder.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. What's the saying if you can't. Well, no, the saying is there are old mushroom foragers and bold mushroom foragers, but no old bold mushroom foragers. Yeah. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

So Anna, how were you introduced to the Joy and how did you get involved in creating those beautiful illustrations for the Joy?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, well, I was thinking about this just in thinking of having this conversation today. And so I did not grow up with the Joy of Cooking. My mom is from Sweden, so most of our cookbooks were Swedish cookbooks that she kind of had from her days. It's sort of like the Swedish iconic classics. And then we had the Betty Crocker cookbook. We had bright orange three ring binder. Betty Crocker, I think was gifted to her by my grandmother. And we didn't really even use that. I just looked at it for like the funny 70s photos. But so I actually remember when Megan and John, I just got this email kind of out of the blue. It was like, hi, we're from the Joy of Cooking and we know you do paper cut illustrations and would you be interested in like having a chat about maybe making them for the book? And I remember saying to my mom and a good friend of my mom's is kind of like an extra auntie for me. I was like, what do you guys know about the Joy of Cooking? And they both kind of looked at me and they were like, are you serious? Because I just didn't have any experience with it, which is just so hilarious knowing how iconic it is. But yeah, that just kind of like took me into the whole world. And I think my favorite thing, I think now having like had more of a relationship with it since making the papercut illustrations is that it allows me to ask other people when, you know, when. If they learn that I made the illustrations, then it sort of leads to a conversation. And actually a family that we used to rent our house from, they had had a long standing addition in the kitchen. And the grandfather of that family, they would always write, his name was Don and they would always write down like funny things that he said in the book. So like on the front page because they were just always in the kitchen. And that was the book that was on hand. So it was this book that was like a collection of Donisms. And so he passed away in like 2018 maybe. And then when the book came out, I gifted. I gifted a copy of the new edition to that family as a Christmas present because it had my illustrations in it. And. And then it turned into the Judaisms because the grandmother's still around, so they still have that. They just like keep track of all the silly things that. And fun things that she says in the kitchen. So I just kind of love that tradition and it actually made me start making notes in my own version that I have now.

[Shannon Larson]

So I love that so much.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, those are. That's our favorite part of finding old editions too, is looking in the margins to see what People wrote or what people thought was important enough to, like, put behind the COVID Yeah, it's. It's make. It makes them really special.

[Jon Becker]

I feel like recording, you know, funny things that somebody has said that that's like a whole new level. Usually it's, you know, annotating a recipe to say it needs this or that or this is good, or, you know, like recipes from newspapers, like, stuck in the pages and whatnot.

[Ana Bronis]

That's what mine looks like right now.

[Megan Scott]

I love it. Okay, we're gonna. We are going to move into our tasting segment. So each show has a weekly, has a topic, and this week our theme is fermentation, but more specifically sauerkraut. Because later in the show, we're going to answer a question about sauerkraut, and fermentation is such a huge category to talk about. But for the tasting segment, I have not actually made any sauerkraut this year, which I need to get on that. But in the meantime, we brought some other fermented things to taste. We brought some half sour pickles, which I think at this point are full sours.

[Jon Becker]

They're fully sour.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Because they're over a year old, right?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And they still look really awesome. Yeah. And then we brought some very ripe kimchi also.

[Jon Becker]

This is all related to the question, I swear.

[Shannon Larson]

And it's an excuse for us to eat pickles every single episode, which is great pickle time.

[Megan Scott]

Sorry, you can't be here to taste these pickles, Anna.

[Ana Bronis]

No, it's just funny, though, because somebody just sent me a graphic of, like, a Richard Scarry illustration with, like, different items of, like, self care, and one of them was eat a pickle.

[Megan Scott]

I love that so much. Oh, I love. Richard Scarry is the best. John Ashley didn't grow up with Richard Scarry. So every time I'm like, I feel like I'm in a Richard Scarry book, he's like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm in busy town.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, you showed me some.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I showed you some illustrations.

[Jon Becker]

I got the gist.

[Shannon Larson]

It's the best.

[Megan Scott]

Didn't your Shannon. Didn't your former housemate slash upstairs mate Holly? I remember she was like, the best part of being an adult is that I get to just eat a pickle.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Whenever I want. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. I mean, literally yesterday I was driving home from Labouf, which we've talked about on this podcast before, this little international market here in Portland, and they had a jar of pickled baby corn, and I was like, I need to have that right now. And like I didn't even wait until we got home. I just popped open the jar and I was just like eating pickled baby corn like this is. And it was like, I don't know, 2:00 in the afternoon. Like this is great.

[Megan Scott]

This is perfect. That's a good prank anytime snack. Yeah, yeah. So these. John, could you talk about these pickles a little bit since you made them?

[Jon Becker]

Sure. So yeah, these are the, these started out as half sours. That's what they were intended to be consumed as. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like these were from summer before last. Usually we were able to go through at least one half gallon jar, but these have just been in the back of the refrigerator for a long time. And you know, I, they seemed relevant to the questions because it's talking about like overly ripe sauerkraut and you know, is it safe and is it what to do with it? So I just thought it would be good to bring in like, you know, an older or wiser ferment and yeah, just, just to, you know, get the conversation going about what we can do with, you know, the especially funky long running ferments.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's, they're so good too.

[Shannon Larson]

So it reminds me of being in like New York City right now. Yeah, they're delicious.

[Megan Scott]

They're not crunch anymore, but the flavor is really good. Also the, the half sour, the ferment fermentation process makes just the best pickle brine. If you are a pickle brine person, that is the best. And it's like really garlicky. Um, I'll probably turn it into pickle pops again, but where you just freeze them, freeze the brine in popsicle molds and just eat them. Eat it like that. It's so good.

[Shannon Larson]

Why am I not doing that?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, we got really turned on to that by one experience in Thermopolis, Wyoming. Yeah, there was a little diner drive through type situation. I can't remember the name of the place, but yeah, they, they had pickle pops on the menu and they were, they were just using like flask brine, which is delicious. I mean that was, it was a good pickle pop. But I just had this inkling to order a pickle pop and a chocolate malt at the same time.

[Shannon Larson]

That's interesting.

[Jon Becker]

And yeah, it was kind of like a chaser. I don't know what to call it, a shot chaser type situation.

[Megan Scott]

It went really well together though.

[Jon Becker]

It was so good.

[Megan Scott]

It reminded me of eating french fries with A Wendy's Frosty. It's that like the salty and the chocolate thing that's.

[Shannon Larson]

So now I won.

[Megan Scott]

We'll do that next time, okay? Okay. Anna, we have a few more questions for you. So I really wanted to talk about. You write a substack newsletter called Creative Fuel that I've been subscribing to for at least a few years now. I love it so, so much. It's one of the newsletters that I get way too many newsletters, but it's one of the few that I actually read. I always read your newsletter and I'm. I love how. Well, first of all, could you just describe what the Creative Fuel newsletter is about for listeners?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, I mean, I think that the tagline that's like written on there, on the about page is the intersection of creativity in everyday life, which is really just an excuse for me to write about whatever I want, but usually through a lens of like creativity and art, but sort of with the idea that creativity just shows up in all of our lives no matter if we self identify as artists or writers or. And so just like getting to explore a little bit of that, which really just means exploring what it means to be human, I think.

[Megan Scott]

I love that. Do you ever bring like prompts from your own newsletter into the kitchen?

[Ana Bronis]

Oh gosh, that's a really good question. And now I'm like, let's write a whole newsletter about that. No, I haven't actually. But I will say that one thing that I think about a lot, which is in the kitchen is the same is I've always loved making like, I don't eat meat, so I'm pescatarian. But I've always enjoyed making like plant based recipes or like gluten free recipes. Just trying to figure out how to do something like within really strict constraints. And I think that that's the same for the creative process is that, you know, constraints really do breed creativity. And I kind of love being in the kitchen in that way. Like, I. I live in a small town and so it's a little bit more rural. So it's not like I can just like go to the specialty grocery store to get, you know, the fancy ingredients. Like you kind of just got to make do with what you have. And so that's kind of my style of cooking. And I think that's kind of my style of like creativity as well is like, yeah, not starting with a totally blank slate, but like actually putting some constraints in place. So that's maybe where maybe I haven't been intentionally Bringing in a prompt. But that's probably where there's a bit of similarity in, like. Like, my art practice and my, like, cooking practice.

[Megan Scott]

And how do you. So how do you create those constraints with your art?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, well, I think so I work in papercut illustration, so for my visual practice. So for anyone who doesn't know, it's. I'm literally cutting a piece of paper with a blade. Like, that's what it is. And I think that is, like, for me, that's really the ultimate constraint.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Ana Bronis]

Because you. You don't have color, you don't have shading, you don't have, like, you know, you're not building a piece up. You're sort of, like, removing things. And if you remove too much, well, then you can't put it back. So for me, there's just that that medium in particular, is a medium of constraints, and I really like it. And I think I. I like to have that adjacent to my writing practice, because I think writing is such. It's generative. Right. You can always, like, you can write a sentence and then you can add to it, and then you can, like, remove words from it. And, you know, you could, like, work on a sentence for six months. Right. If you really wanted to. And I think paper cutting is just so different because you cut pieces of paper and you remove them, and, like, eventually you get to a point where you're like, okay, I'm done. Like, I can't do anything else. And so I like having those two things because they feel very. Yeah, they feel very opposite, but also they sort of, like, support each other.

[Jon Becker]

For me, I really like that idea of creation by omission.

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Just sounds cool. I don't know. That's very, very little content to that comment.

[Megan Scott]

No, I love it. No, that's how that's. Honestly, like, in my work as an editor, I'm always thinking about how much can I take out of this and still get the point across that needs to be made? Because. And then there's a point where you're like, oh, no. Oops, I have to undo that. That was too much. But it's kind of interesting to play with. Yeah. How little you can say and still say what you want to say.

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah. And I think, like, it is interesting to think about that just living in the culture that we live in, which is, I think, very much a culture of, like, abundance and a lot and bigger is better and more is more, you know, so it's interesting to think about how you kind of use that. Yeah. Removing things to find the simplest way to say something or the simplest way to express something through food. I mean, I think about that a lot just in thinking of like cooking seasonally. I think summer is such a good example of that. Like, you don't have to do much to really good summer ingredients. Right. You could slice up a tomato and put it on a plate and call it a day. It's like really like the most simplest, truest expression of that, of that, that item or that ingredient. And I think often we have a tendency to over complicate because we've. I definitely feel that in my art practice too. Like, there's this idea that if it's complicated, then it's good because it took more time, which is just influenced by a capitalist mindset of more time in equals more value. But I think the same for food sometimes too. Like, I think my favorite meals are usually ones that are like, fairly simple to put together and just really enjoyed with other people. And that doesn't need to be. I mean, I love making a complicated recipe, for sure, but I think that that doesn't mean that that's, you know, the best expression of that. I think there's, there's definitely space for figuring out that sort of that editorial process, like with your, with what you're making. Right. Like, what's the, what's the simplest way that you can make something and have it be really wonderful?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that tension is certainly present in recipe writing. Even if you're writing what is essentially a very simple recipe, you can go into too much detail to the point where it actually starts alienating readers. So.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's something we think about all the time. Well, we think about recipe editing all the time because we're trying to fit so much into a finite amount of space in a printed book. And so we're always like, okay, well, how much information is necessary, how much maybe extra is confusing at this point, you know, and you're, you know, you're never going to be able to please everyone perfectly all the time, but that's okay too.

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah. And I think that element of also confusing, but it's also like with too much information, you've also sort of removed some of the potential for somebody's own creative process within that. Right. I mean, I was, I was thinking about this, just thinking about coming into this conversation and I was thinking about some of my just like favorite cookbooks or resources, and most of them are not illustrated with photos. Like they are illustrated with illustrations or they're Just text. And I think we've gotten really used to also in the food space of just gorgeous, stunning photos of beautiful food. Right?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Ana Bronis]

But that can also be really intimidating when you think, like, oh, gosh, mine didn't turn out that way, or. And I was thinking one of my. One of my recipes that I go to a lot in the Joy of Cooking is the rough puff pastry. Because it just. It just works really well for a lot of things, and I use it a lot, and I. I'm pretty sure if it's not with that recipe, it's with one of the puff pastry recipes. There's just, like, a simple drawing of, like, how to do the sort of, like, folding of the pastry. But it's like, so you. You see the method, but you don't see the end result. And I think there is this element. We're so used to seeing the end result of something, so we sort of don't engage in the process in the same way. And I think when you don't kind of have all of the overly detailed instructions, they're just more space for you to kind of, like, lean into it and need to trust yourself a little bit. And I think that's, you know, that's where, like, the good stuff happens usually. Or that's where you start, you make a change, and then that's your adaptation. And that's the thing that works for you. Yes. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a temptation to constantly be turning our brains off and that sometimes I'll get. John just looked at me with this weird face. I'll get to my point. But one of my favorite things about cooking is that it's a process that calls you to be really present with what you're doing. Like, it calls you to notice what you're doing to see if something is turning a different color or if something smells a certain way or if it's sizzling in a certain way. Um, and I think our culture largely is constantly telling us to just turn our brains off. Like, just watch the TikTok video, watch TV, do distract yourself constantly. And I love cooking because it's such a tactile process, and you really. It's best when you really pay attention to what you're doing. And I do think that sometimes photos can get in the way of just allowing yourself to experience something for the first time and being okay with the outcome and then thinking about, like, you know, what did I just. What did I learn from that experience? And you're. You're already judging Your own effort by the time you get into the kitchen. Sometimes with photos. But, yeah, I totally agree. I love illustrated cookbooks. Obviously, we're a little bit biased in that direction.

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking too, like, especially from leading a lot of, like, you know, workshops centered around, like, art and creativity. I mean, I think for a lot of people, cooking is a real expression of their creativity. Like, that's just like a place that feels like you're kind of in the flow of creative process. You're really, you know, it's a sensory experience and you're really engaged and often to your point, like, you haven't turned your brain off. You're not distracted by something else because you're kind of focused on. On. On what you're doing. Otherwise, you know, you. You'll burn yourself or you'll, like, add. Add too much of something and make the end result not taste very good. But, yeah, I think that food is really creative for people, and it is a place where we, especially in a day and age, where we don't use our hands very much. You know, a lot of us, to John's point about the numerous tabs and applications, I feel that I'm the same. But, you know, it's like, I think a lot of us spend a lot of time in digital spaces, and to just be in a physical space where you're using your hands to do something is, you know, kind of something we've been doing, like, all humans across time, and we've lost a little bit of that. And I think that's what's so powerful about food, is we do need to eat every day, so it's kind of a chance to, like, re. Engage with that creative process that's really inherent to all of us.

[Megan Scott]

I love that so much.

[Jon Becker]

Kind of wondering if you had any favorite Scandinavian foods that you cook this time of year.

[Ana Bronis]

Oh, yes. I feel like this time of year is just the time. I mean, I grew up in a. So my mom is from Sweden, my dad is from the US but they moved here in the 70s. And I think when I was born, it was just really important for my mom to do all of the Swedish traditional foods around holidays. Because, you know, I think for anyone, that's just like, a real time that you sort of, like, hold onto your culture. And so I just grew up with, yeah, all Swedish foods and Scandinavian foods, like, sort of end of the year. So the sort of classic ones are. Are like for St. Lucia Day, which is December 13, you have the saffron buns. So they're like these yeasted. It's a yeasted dough that then a saffron in it. So it makes it this beautiful yellow color. And they're traditionally done in these backwards S's. And then there's Peppa Kokur, which is like the Swedish gingersnap that is very, very popular around this time of year. And then obviously Glug, which is Swedish mulled wine. There's actually a recipe. Enjoy. Of cooking. It was funny I was looking at this today because I thought to myself, oh, I actually remember writing down a note in. And it was when the. When the book had first come out. And my dad has like his tried and true Glug recipe that he has been making since he studied in Sweden in the late 60s, early 70s. And, you know, he just doesn't budge from it. Like, we have lots of discussions about whose Glug recipe is better, but so we tried the Joy of Cooking one. And that one involves from memory, it involves pouring alcohol over sugar in a strainer and then lighting it on fire to burn it off a little bit, which I know sounds wild. This is like, I don't do that. But I remember my dad and I wrote it down. He was like, well, that seems to defeat the purpose because he wants his really boozy. And so I have that written in pencil in the book.

[Megan Scott]

I will say from experience with that recipe that even burning it does really not take all the alcohol out of it.

[Ana Bronis]

No. Yeah. The way that I make mine, which is a method that I read about from Marcus Samuelsson, the Swedish chef who has restaurants in New York, is to do kind of an infusion. So basically to put all of the spices in a jar and some like, I usually put some orange peel and as well and just like pour the alcohol into that and also some dried fruit. And I just let that sit overnight and then I strain that off. And so it kind of makes for this, like, spicy, sweet, sweetened alcohol that then I mix in with. With the rest of it.

[Shannon Larson]

That sounds delicious.

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Well, I have to try that research.

[Megan Scott]

I wanted to ask you. So, Anna, you are a cyclist, right?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

What do you like to pack on a long ride to eat?

[Ana Bronis]

It's a good question. Well, first of all, I'm a big believer in N plus 1. So often in the bike community, N plus 1 is like the number of bikes that you have, which is however many bikes plus another one. Um, but I like to use that as, like how many baked goods you get to have on a ride, and N is the number of People you're on the ride with plus one. So you always get an extra baked good if you stop at a bakery or. And I always joke that I just want to do a ride that's long enough to, yeah, feel good going to the bakery or like a brewery. That's. That's my kind of my ideal ride. But I think for riding, you know, I. I have a tendency now to want more savory than I want sweet. So even sometimes, like, I used to make a lot of, I don't know, more things with like peanut butter and honey or kind of more granola bars. And I just find now that I just really want savory stuff. So there was a ride I went on like a year ago where I'd made some like, kind of rice ball type things, which is not something that I ended up figuring. I should have done a little bit more recipe testing on that. But I think those types of things that yet taste more savory and are just like small and easy to. Easy to eat is kind of what I. What I go to. Um, I've also been just mostly on short rides lately, so I just went on a. We have a standing Sunday morning ride and that just involves coffee and something and a treat with it afterwards.

[Jon Becker]

So I just wanted to. I saw like on your social media that you are currently writing a book about cold.

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I was just kind of curious what led you to that topic. It seems like, you know, especially considering that you're. It sounds like you're approaching it from multiple angles and it just sounded really daunting. And I was just wondering. Yeah. What inspired you to write about cold?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, it is daunting. Yeah. No, so I. Because I live in the Puget Sound, I live near saltwater and so I've been going in the water swimming. I wouldn't call it swimming in the winter. It's more just like dipping, but all year round for a few years. And so that just kind of tapped me into like a cold water. Our swimming and plunging community and just have been watching the sort of like rise in popularity of that for the last few years. And then I just got really fascinated by sort of like, yeah, what that kind of draw is what cold does for us mentally, physically, and kind of what a larger cultural perspective on that is and kind of what that all means in the face of climate change. So that's. That's what I'm currently working on. It's due next October, so I got time.

[Megan Scott]

But, you know, it really creeps up on you.

[Ana Bronis]

Really creeps up, you guys know.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ana Bronis]

But actually I haven't started reading it yet, but I did just get Nicola Twylie, I think is her last name book Frostbite, which is all about the history of refrigeration and food. So there's sort of these like, interesting. It's really easy to think like, oh, this is just about cold water, but there's just so many interesting ways I think that cold shows up in how just our, just our everyday lives that maybe we don't think about. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Becker]

I was kind of wondering if you were planning on dealing with, you know, food ways, food traditions that are kind of related to that subject.

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, well, there's definitely certain food traditions where like hot and cold and combining or avoiding one or the other based upon time of year or based upon how somebody's feeling. You know, it's like very much part of like ayurvedic medicine comes to mind. Hot and cold plays like a pretty big role in that. And even like just even reading up on like ice cream, right? Yeah, like, I don't know, just sort of just our like emotional attachment to that or our response to that like when we eat. It is really interesting to me.

[Jon Becker]

Cool. It sounds like I'm really excited to read that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

[Ana Bronis]

I, I am too. But you know, gotta write it first.

[Megan Scott]

Well, good luck on your, on your writing journey. That sounds like a really fun project. Anna, where can our listeners find you online?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, so the Creative Fuel newsletter is Creative Fuel on substack and then I'm on Instagram just with my name, Ana Brodus.

[Megan Scott]

And so now we're going to move into the segment where we answer a caller question from last week. This week we're going to be talking about fermentation, but specifically about sauerkraut. Sarah, can you read the text?

[Caller]

Can you leave kraut out for too long? I made a batch and was sitting on my bookshelf. And then on day four, I left for a trip, forgetting to put the kraut in the fridge. By the time I returned, it was day nine. The kraut is extra fizzy and a little on the mushy side. Is it okay to eat it?

[Megan Scott]

I love this question so much because back when we. So we don't currently have a website. That is soon to change. But back in the day when we did have a website, the sauerkraut recipe and we had a few other fermentation recipes. But those recipes in particular got so many comments and so many of the comments were like, is my sauerkraut safe to eat? Is it okay? And of course, when someone's asking you that question online, you're like, I have no idea. You know, you really have to, like, use your judgment. But I would just say, I think, you know, there, there haven't been any recorded cases of food poisoning coming from fermented foods.

[Ana Bronis]

Oh, wow.

[Megan Scott]

Ever.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, we've, we've sat in on at least two fermentation workshops with Sandra Katz, who has made that point at every single one of them.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

And I guess, yeah, no, that's straight from a microbiologist at the USDA's Agricultural Research Service, ARS.

[Megan Scott]

That sounds right.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. No, it's very safe. So probably, yeah, I would say the sauerkraut is fine to eat. The question is more like, is it, do you want to eat it?

[Shannon Larson]

Is it delicious texture wise? Like, does that make you want to put it on a hot dog? I don't know.

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah, I feel like it just get, you know, it's going to get sharper and funkier over time and that's, that can be great. It's all a matter of personal preference. But yeah, the real thing that I think would turn most people off is texture. Like, if it's, if it's starting to get slimy, obviously that's not great. And. Well, at least I would think that it's not great. And also strange colors. I know that we were discussing this question a few days ago and you were talking about how you, how fermentation in fall specifically was a little bit problematic.

[Megan Scott]

Well, so I used to work on a goat dairy and in the fall, my, the person I worked for, the cheese maker I worked for, would, she would tell me that, like, cheese making in the fall is a little bit more, it can be a little bit more tricky because there are lots more yeasts and bacteria in the air just from like plants decaying from leaves falling in the. So there's just more microbial activity in the air. So we would run into problems. Like, you know, when we were aging the cheeses, they would develop a bloom of some kind of mold that we didn't want or they would turn pink, which is like a yeast. And you know, it was, it was, we were still making cheese the whole time and most of it was successful, but you would run into more problems in the fall. And so I do feel like even though it's a great time of year for fermenting, because everything kind of comes, you know, you're harvesting all the crops in the fall, and it's a really great time to preserve things. It can be a little trickier. I've definitely had issues with sauerkraut, specifically, like getting a yeast kind of colony in it, and then it kind of turns a little pink. And it's not the end of the world. It's not dangerous. But it also can just start tasting weird or like bitter. And the texture can sometimes get slimy, which for me is a big no. But I would say, like, I don't think nine days or even. Even twice that amount at room temperature. I think that's totally fine for kraut. In fact, some people are very adamant that you need to ferment it for like, like four weeks or something. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Much longer than that before you eat it.

[Megan Scott]

So I think it's fine. But also I would say, in my experience, you know, I don't like throwing away food. It makes me feel really bad and like, I've failed somehow. But also I've, you know, I've saved kraut that wasn't that good. And then what ends up happening is it sits in the back of the fridge for like a year and I never want to eat it and then I end up throwing it away anyway. So I would just say, like, give yourself permission. If it doesn't taste right, if it doesn't, it's not good, just throw it away and start try again. Like, it'll work out eventually. Don't beat yourself up over it.

[Shannon Larson]

Do you have any favorite sauerkraut recipes?

[Jon Becker]

Oh, yeah. We added a recipe for sauerkraut fritters to the last edition that are fantastic. Really? Enjoy those.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, they're like studded with little chunks of gruyere or some kind of like alpine cheese. And then they're not deep fried. It's like a shallow fried, like, just pan fry situation. Those are delicious. And then there's also a sauerkraut soup enjoy. That we added that we really love.

[Jon Becker]

And that would be perfect for, you know, quote, unquote, overripe sauerkraut just because you're using it more as a. It's not like a condiment. It's not a pickle necessarily. You're using it to flavor, like, a whole pot.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, no, that's a great use for really ripe sauerkraut. It's got kielasa in it and paprika and tomatoes and some potatoes. So it's like a really hearty, delicious soup that, you know, it kind of doesn't matter if your kraut is really, really ripe.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. And you know, you can use it. You could use, like, overly ripe sauerkraut in a braised sauerkraut situation as well. If it's really, like, too much for you or you think it's going to be too much in a braised dish, you can always just add some fresh cabbage to it as well.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I like that idea of diluting it a little bit to just get the flavor. But you still have some of the fresher crabbit cabbage for crunch.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. The texture, it helps, texture wise. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Anna, do you have any sauerkraut tales to tell or things that you like to do with sauerkraut?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah, Well, I was actually, when you were saying permission to throw out, I. For a while I was into making, like, pickled ginger just, like, with a fermented. I think that was a recipe probably from Kirsten Shockey that I was following, but just. And it was actually, like, really good. And then one time I made one and it was just. Oh, it's just weird.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Ana Bronis]

And I think it's same thing. It just sat in my fridge for a long time because I felt bad.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Ana Bronis]

And then eventually I threw it out. But, yeah, I feel like we always have a jar of something fermented in the fridge. I feel like we definitely usually have some kimchi on hand to add to all kinds of things. And I haven't made any recently, but certainly I think I sort of feel the same about creativity, too. I just have different seasons of the things that you kind of ebb and flow in and out of. And I just have had times where I do way more fermented stuff in the kitchen and then not but one. I have a friend who just usually does just a small jar of, like, a really simple, straightforward cabbage and carrots just on the counter for a few days. And I kind of like doing those more. Again, I'm just like, I want the constraints and I want the simplicity. So anything that doesn't involve too much process is great for me.

[Megan Scott]

If you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you. And next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Caller]

I have two celeriac bulbs but do not like the taste of celery. Should I hand them off to a more grateful person or is there a magic recipe that turns them tasty?

[Megan Scott]

I love that question so much. All right, what. What are you Guys, thinking about for this next week, food wise, what are. What are we doing? I know we all have a CSA box coming this week that looks. I was reading the. The list of what's supposed to be in it, which is very exciting because I feel like it's a really good box.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, yeah. Celery roots in there.

[Megan Scott]

John really loves. I like celery root, too, but John really likes it.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. When it's roasted with schmaltz.

[Ana Bronis]

Yes.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Specifically, everything's delicious. When it's roasted with schmaltz. Well, we have a canning club meeting this week.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Shannon Larson]

So I'm going to spend, I think, this afternoon canning. I think I'm going to do a Marissa McClelland's cranberry orange compote. She does food in jars, which is my. Like, I love that website and that book.

[Ana Bronis]

I just.

[Shannon Larson]

Everything she does, it's talking about simplicity. I think that's one of her biggest things is, like, her canning recipes are so simple, very easy to do, but also just always tasty.

[Megan Scott]

So we need to have her on the podcast.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, my gosh. She's the best.

[Megan Scott]

She's the best.

[Shannon Larson]

She is. But, yeah, I'm excited for canning club, and I'll have to come up with. I'm hosting this week, so some cute appetizer situation.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I think we're probably. I don't know, we don't have any plans to can anything, but I did make a big batch of fire cider about a month ago, so it's. It's about ready to strain and decant, so I will probably bring that. It's fire cider season.

[Shannon Larson]

Can you explain fire cider really quickly for people who don't know fire cider?

[Megan Scott]

I'm. I'm hoping I get this right. I believe it was invented by someone named Rosemary Gladstar, who's an herbalist. And it is just a. It's like an infusion of many medicinal but also delicious things. So it. And it. It's kind of a. It's interesting because it's sweetened, usually like with a little honey or some maple syrup or something. But it also has savory ingredients in it, like onion and garlic, ginger, some sometimes spices. I added dried elderberries to mine because I wanted to make it more like the Pacific Northwest. And elderberries are so good, and they make it this beautiful, like, fuchsia color.

[Jon Becker]

You skipped the onions, though, right?

[Megan Scott]

No, I did add some. I added some onions, but I think so. I have an aversion to raw Onions. I really super hate them, actually, and. But I think it will be okay in the finished fireside. I don't think it's going to taste like straight up onions.

[Shannon Larson]

You have enough. None of other things.

[Megan Scott]

This is suspicion of Anya. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

I think we're gonna be doing a big batch of chili later today and some green chili cornbread for some.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. For dinner.

[Jon Becker]

For dinner.

[Megan Scott]

Which is very exciting.

[Jon Becker]

Yes.

[Shannon Larson]

You brought that green chili cornbread over to my house recently. It was delicious.

[Megan Scott]

I'm trying to become known as the person who brings cornbread to everything. Oh, I like it.

[Shannon Larson]

I like that goal. Ana, what about you? Anything you're excited to cook this week?

[Ana Bronis]

Yeah. Well, since Thanksgiving is down the line, we don't usually do traditional Thanksgiving foods in our house. We just use it as. My husband and I use it as an opportunity to go through all of our cookbooks and just find things that sound fun to make. So we've got a little. Just some time to sit down this week and look through some cookbooks to find some fun things. I was thinking of doing some kind of like a chowder recipe, because that just sounded fun. I don't know why. And then also last week, we tested out a recipe. Recipe that's from Hetty McKinnon. That's like a one sheet. It's like a ramen noodle, tofu, bok choy situation. That was really good. So I'm just excited about doing that again because I like just. I have a lot of recipes that I just repeat a lot. Maybe, like, slightly more boring in the kitchen than maybe people would assume, but I just like those, like, really straightforward go to things that you know are good for a couple of meals. Mm.

[Megan Scott]

I'm writing that recipe down.

[Shannon Larson]

I know.

[Megan Scott]

I tried that.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm writing it down too.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I feel like we have a few Hetty McKinnon recipes that have been on repeat.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Yeah. Like the dumpling salad. That's delicious.

[Jon Becker]

That was. That was. Yeah. That was definitely a go to this summer for sure.

[Shannon Larson]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by leaving us a review on Apple Podcast and itunes. Follow us on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week, where we will tackle celeriac root and call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find Joy in the kitchen. 503-395-8858. Again, that's 503-395-8858.

[Megan Scott]

We could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Kayleen Veach, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer.