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- [00:00]
Renee Beery
Foreign.
- [00:09]
Kate
Hey guys, Kate here. It's episode 267 of the Kate show and I have an amazing interview for you. I am so excited for you to learn from her. But first I want to ask you, are you the only girl on the job site? Well, so is my guest, Renee Beery. As it turns out, being the only girl on the job site isn't a bad thing. It can actually be invigorating, challenging, and highly profitable. Now, if you've wondered how to fix the disconnect between your design firm and the general contractor, or how to get started with construction management projects where you're involved from day one and are part of every phase from demo to decor, you need to hear this episode. Renee Berry is a luxury interior designer, podcast host and construction expert. She was educated at the New York School of Interior Design and employed by 80 top 100 firms and she's built an impressive resume. For the past three decades. She's created a niche expertise in managing large scale constructions from renovations to new builds. Even more impressive, her passion to give back. Over the years, the industry has applauded her transparency and tactical advice for fellow designers. And you're going to hear a lot of that on today's interview. Now today, she's still on a mission to give confidence to designers through her course, the Interior Designer's Guide to Construction Management, which is a five part course with many hours of lessons and it looks to be like, so in depth. Well worth it. If I were an interior designer wanting to branch into construction management, I would have signed up for this course already. It's, it's that good. Like I was reading through like the previews that she has on her website of the different modules and it's like, wow, that she literally covers everything, including some marketing, which I thought was cool because she knows how to build a successful business. So clearly she knows a thing or two about marketing. Now, as a noted industry leader, Renee has been applauded by the likes of the Washington Post, the Miami Herald, and she's shared her expertise on Lula Negara's podcast, A well Designed business, which I know a lot of you are very familiar with and are avid fans of. So without further ado, my guest, Renee Beery.
- [02:11]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
This episode of the Kate show is brought to you by HoneyBook. I love using HoneyBook for my business because it helps create a streamlined workflow when people decide they want to work with me. And because, you know, there's one thing to do the right marketing to get the client, there's quite another to Impress them all the way through the end of the project. And with Honeybook, my clients are able to review and sign the proposal, make their payment, and then be told what to do next, all in one fell swoop. I've set up automations that remind them when they need to send me certain assets so that their website project can.
- [02:47]
Kate
Go off without a hit.
- [02:48]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
And if you've ever worked with us, you know that Honeybook kept you on track. It kept us on track and it.
- [02:55]
Kate
Was really easy to use.
- [02:56]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
If you're interested in using Honeybook for your business, go to honeybook.com and use the code socialite at checkout for 50% off your first year. This episode of the Kate show is brought to you by the Foundation Website guys. If you need a new website for your business, but you can't afford a fully custom site or you just don't need have that much time to spare, you should check out the semi custom website design service from the Socialite agency for home pros who need more than just a DIY website template. How many times have you purchased a website template only to never use it or get stuck because you don't know how to complete it, you don't know how to connect all the things and well, doesn't that end up being a waste of money?
- [03:41]
Kate
It does.
- [03:42]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
That's why the foundation website exists. If you want a professional to set up your website, handle your on site SEO, optimize your images and write your copy and you want to maintain full control over that website moving forward. This website is for you. You'll be able to see what's included and what's not included by heading over to kaitlynsocialite.com and under the Services page click on semi custom website design. Every great build begins with a solid foundation and we've made it easy. You'll be able to learn exactly how the process works, why we have a 10 business day turnaround, and why we can keep the fees so darn affordable with no ongoing fees to us whatsoever. The cool thing is, and the thing that a lot of our clients appreciate is that when you get our website, whether it's fully custom or semi custom like this one, we are available to help make updates to your site. We only charge you when you actually need an update made, which means that months, years might go by, you don't have to pay us a dime, but when you're ready for help, we're there to help you. Head over to katethesocialite.com and look under the Services tab to get the website your business deserves.
- [04:58]
Kate
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Kate Show. I'm here with Renee, and I am so excited. I've got a million questions for her. Well, not a million, but still. Still plenty. Renee, thanks for being on the show today.
- [05:09]
Renee Beery
Thanks for having me, Kate. This is great. Yeah.
- [05:11]
Kate
I am excited that we were able to connect because you're doing something that I don't see anybody else doing. And you're saying the quiet part out loud, too, which is awesome. So you have a podcast called Only Girl on the Job Site, and it, like, it's a great title. It speaks to exactly what a lot of women are dealing with in the home industry. It's very relatable. I've listened to it, and I do recommend it for designers who are trying to take their career in design to the next level. So what I would like to know from you, Renee, to get things started off is how did you get to where you are today? Because to give my listeners some context, you're teaching women how to be successful as the only woman on the job site and how to speak that language. I don't want to speak for you, but I do want to know, how did you end up here?
- [06:04]
Renee Beery
Yeah, well, it goes back to my. My love of design, and that I was really fortunate, even in high school, to understand that this was what I wanted to do. And so I pursued an education in it. I went to the New York School of Interior Design. And at the time, you know, some of this is, you know, hindsight. At the time, the school was run by architects, so the dean was an architect. And so it felt like a lot of our classes had that bend to it. I'm old enough that we were taught drafting and a little bit of autocad in the end. And my drafting teacher was really impactful in my life. She had a long career in drafting, and so she taught us the basics, but she also taught us how to draw, every single drawing. And she would say, you cannot legally see all these drawings, but I want you to understand them so that when you're in a room with an architect, an engineer, a builder, you know exactly what they're talking about. So she taught us how to do reflected ceiling plans. She taught us how to do H VAC systems, everything. And we didn't really understand at the time how incredibly valuable that information would be. And then after school, I started working for a firm in New York City that did renovations. And in New York City, what that looked like is your client would buy the apartment upstairs, downstairs, left Right. Blow through and then you've got two kitchens, two powder rooms, you know, and all of that had to be reconfigured to make sense. And so I was hooked right from the beginning. And I always sought out jobs that, that did the renovations. We always did decorating as well. And so fast forward. When I left New York City, I moved back to my home state of Delaware and wanted to do the same form of business, both the decorating and the construction management. And I was met with a lot of strange looks. I was met with, we'll call you when we need the sofa comments. And it took a while really to, to encourage and to win over, for lack of a better term, the contractors and architects that I came in contact with that I was an incredible value add to their projects. And then once I did overcome that hurdle, it was smooth sailing.
- [08:37]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
Wow.
- [08:38]
Kate
Yeah. The idea of being so easily dismissed. We'll call you when we need a sofa.
- [08:43]
Renee Beery
Like, oh, yes, it happened regularly. And I was young at the time, so I think I had that kind of one, two punch. They couldn't imagine that I had any skills beyond decorating that could help them with their construction projects.
- [08:59]
Kate
And then in time, you, you proved them to be incorrect, which is amazing.
- [09:04]
Renee Beery
One project at a time.
- [09:06]
Kate
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Nothing happens overnight. But when someone listening is like, okay, this is my story. I am an interior designer. They might be young, they might not consider themselves to be young. They're like these other trades. People on the job site are not taking me seriously. I want to be helpful. I want to work with them, I want to collaborate with them. I want to add construction management as part of my design firm, service offerings like, like the financial reasons for doing that. Like, what benefit is there to the interior designer aside from just, okay, now I can communicate better with these people and they, they see me as legitimate part of this project.
- [09:46]
Renee Beery
Excellent question. The short answer is it is an incredible revenue stream. The longer answer is it makes you a one stop shop. I work with my clients for decades, not months, because they move. Then we take on another project. Maybe they just want to gut the bathroom this year. Next year they're going to redecorate the living room. Next year they're going to buy a second home at the beach and they don't have to look for anyone else, frankly. And then the know like, and trust is so ingrained in the project that it's an easy, yes, let's do it. Well, you know, Renee will help us, so let's just go ahead and do it.
- [10:29]
Kate
Yeah.
- [10:30]
Renee Beery
And the second part is I have been in the business for 30 years and I can personally tell you how the decorating side of the world, they want trade only resources. The margins of profit markups have completely been reconfigured. Right. The access on the Internet, I mean, I know it, I don't know a single designer who hasn't run up against a client, say, well, I'm going to get that on my own, or I found it cheaper here, that didn't exist because I came into the industry pre Internet. And so I fear that that will only continue as access grows. And being able to add this service onto your business model gives you a second very lucrative revenue stream that can counterbalance any changes on the decorating side.
- [11:23]
Kate
Yeah, I mean, it's very marketable, it's very forward thinking. And when, when I'm working with clients and trying to get them out of whatever situation they might be in as far as growing their business and they might feel stuck or stagnant, it's often because they don't have that forward thinking mindset of where is the industry going? Not just where am I today? And it can be hard for any business owner, especially creative business owners, to see beyond today or to see beyond this year because a lot of us are just trying to get from one day to the next. But when you look at it in that big picture of like you said, okay, these homeowners are going to have more and more access to these once trade only resources. So we can't fix that, we can't change that, so let's adapt our businesses instead. And I love that mentality.
- [12:08]
Renee Beery
Well, the other thing to keep in mind is I have found clients see decorating as a luxury service.
- [12:15]
Kate
Right.
- [12:16]
Renee Beery
Most of my clients already own furniture, so they can put off replacing all of that if the recession, if a recession is on the rise or if the economy is taking a dip. But every single client of mine sees as renovation project as an investment in their home. So for instance, during 08, 09 and into 10, when a lot of my friends in the industry were just simply decorating, their finances were completely destabilized. But I ended up making the same money. I just shifted to all construction projects because no matter what they see, and you can look this up, you renovate a kitchen, I think you get 80% of your investment back in a return when you sell it. I mean, it's crazy the kind of ROI there is on a construction project. And the clients know this. And by the way, the fun part is any construction Project I take on always ends in decorating. So because I have clients who, or I have designers reach out and say, but I don't want to stop decorating, I'm like, great. Neither do I. But it's ability to do both and it's an ability to really secure clients for a longer term.
- [13:26]
Kate
Yeah, I think that just is brilliant. I mean, who really wants to or who really enjoys chasing down lead after lead after lead just for short turnaround projects? But like you said, you're looking at this as a long term relationship, which is actually marketing. Even if you're working with the same client over and over, it's still, you're still marketing to them because they could go to someone else, but you're making it a no brainer to stay with you. You are their, their go to. And that, and that speaks to branding. That's marketing. That's just all the things that make for a very good legacy design firm.
- [14:02]
Renee Beery
Yes. And what I want to say as far as designers who are interested, to your point earlier, that to add this service, there are so many designers already doing this service that either don't understand that this is an actual service or they don't want or understand how to charge or market themselves for it.
- [14:23]
Kate
Yes.
- [14:24]
Renee Beery
And that's really where my podcast pivoted from originally being for homeowners only during COVID And it was simply because I could not enter the state of Pennsylvania, which I'm just under, I'm probably five miles from the state of Pennsylvania. They shut, they shut all construction down, so I could not go to my clients. But of course the contractors were sneaking in, so the projects were continuing, but I wasn't willing to go in and put myself at risk. So I was trying to do all of my project management through FaceTime. And as you remember, Zoom was sort of new and it was getting really frustrating to this one fairly high strong client. And she at some point said, I just don't understand why there's not a manual. And she kind of hung up, blew off some steam. And I thought later, I'm like, well, you know, there, there can be a manual. There are the same steps. That doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna have the same clients and the same set of scope of work and all of that, but there are the same steps that you take on each project. And so the podcast started to talk to homeowners and designers started showing up. And honestly I thought they were just checking me out. And then the questions started coming, the emails, the DMs, Renee I'm stuck on this project. What do I do? And frankly, I have always been a big fan of our industry. I want to see it succeed. And so I honestly, I just walked away from the homeowners, pivoted the whole show, and said, I'm all in. If the designers are on these projects and they don't know what they're doing, I'm the one that wants to help. And to your point about I'm the only one talking about it, I was sure I wasn't, Kate. I looked everywhere. I was like, surely someone's talking about this is so not new to me that I can't be the only one talking about it. And I can't answer why people aren't talking about it, because I can assure you, there are countless designers on construction projects every single day.
- [16:25]
Kate
Yeah, Yeah, I know. I started to think the same thing, too. I'm like, why have I not seen any other podcast like this?
- [16:33]
Renee Beery
I don't know.
- [16:33]
Kate
Because. Yeah, because, like, I have a lot of design clients who are like, yeah, I was on the job site today, and they usually have something frustrating to share about the contractor or, you know, it's just. It's, you know, and I. I get that. I get that, like, I am married to a former certified lead carpenter. Okay? Like, I. I. Their nuances. And I am curious to know, as you were going through this process, you said, of course it didn't happen overnight, but I'd be curious to know, what are some of the mistakes that you made that. That you see a lot of other designers making?
- [17:09]
Renee Beery
Well, that could be an entire show. I don't speak about things I haven't done myself. And so my goal is for others to learn from my mistakes. I was fortunate. Like I said in the beginning, I worked for other designers, so my, quote, mistakes were absorbed by other people. Right. So I wasn't fired. But if I did make a mistake, my boss, the owner of the firm, would have to absorb whatever cost it was to remedy that. And so I know that that's not a luxury everyone has. And so I'm more than willing to pay it forward by using the platform that I have to share my mistakes. And I would say one of the greatest mistakes that I made and I see other designers making is feeling like you aren't supposed to be there, that you are the only girl on the job site. And I. I named the podcast that because that's what I used to do. That's how I describe myself to others. And I. I mean it to be empowering. But also to draw a. Draw a picture. You need to be comfortable knowing you will be the only girl on the job site. And I am well aware that that's not easy.
- [18:26]
Kate
Yes. You know, I. When I was listening to your podcast last week, I remembered a very interesting nari meeting that I was part of years ago, earlier in my marketing firm. And it was a bunch of interior designers, and it was just a meeting for women. It was just. They called it Women of Nari. And we were sitting there, and a lot of them started venting about how to communicate with the builders, the GCs, and how it wasn't going well, they weren't being taken seriously. And I don't recall how I got involved in the conversation, but they were like, well, Kate, you work with some of the GCs, like, in a marketing perspective, what can you tell us? And I was like, oh, I wish you hadn't asked that, because they tell me. They tell me a lot of things. And one of the contractors told me the reason we don't like working with designers on job sites is because they create designs that we cannot implement. And I was like, oh, well. So I shared that, and you could have heard a pin drop in that room. There were mixed emotions. Some women looked horrified. Some of them looked sick. One in particular took it as a challenge, and years later, she rebranded herself as an interior designer who specifically works with builders very closely.
- [19:43]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
And I was like, you go, girl.
- [19:44]
Kate
Like, she was. She was former military. Like, you give her a challenge and she will tackle it. But that. It came to mind when I listened to your podcast. I'm like, this is what these women needed years ago. That was almost 10 years ago. This is what they needed because they desperately wanted to provide the service. I know they were very talented as designers, but there was a disconnect.
- [20:05]
Renee Beery
Correct. And that's all it is. Whereas these designers take it as an offense, a slight, an insult, and trust me, some of the guys mean it that way. That's true. Most of the guys I've come across do not. And what I encourage, all designers listening is to be open, to collaborate. Fine. This can't be built. Not only. Okay, but first, tell me why, so I can learn. And then secondarily, how can it be built? Can you get my design intent across in a different way? And if so, let's move with that. Right? I think designers get so insecure, they feel attacked. Right? You're surrounded by men. You're already feeling a little insecure. Then they're saying, well, this can't Happen lady. And that is sort of helpful. They talk to you because they're not going to sugarcoat it. That's just not the language they use.
- [21:05]
Kate
That's how they talk to each other. Correct.
- [21:09]
Renee Beery
And to just simply go, oh, okay, and then walk away. First of all, there's no learning there. Right. The designer hasn't learned anything and the contractor hasn't learned anything. And so the most valuable relationships I have with contractors are ones. And again, not all contractors are interested in working with an interior designer. That to me is short sighted on their part because we can make their job so much easier. But once you find them, and there are plenty that want to work with a designer, but they want to work with a designer. And I think that's the disconnect. I see Designers walk on these job sites and try to take control or command of a situation. And frankly, no one is in control or command except the client. You, everyone else on that project, in that building, in that space is a team. And until that designer makes that mental connection that I am a team member, even if I put together the team, I am not in charge of the team. The client is. They're the only ones paying that bill. And I think that's the mindset shift that has to happen. And I see it happen. And it gets more collaborative.
- [22:24]
Kate
Yeah, yeah. Because it's really not a fight of, you know, the, the designer, you know, usually female, the builders usually male. Of course there's going to be nuances to that, but. Because what I was experiencing to a point was, okay, this is like a battleground and that's not right. That's not right for the client and it stresses everybody out needlessly. So I'm curious for the designers who are like, okay, I, I'm already doing this, but I want to do it better or I am not doing it at all. But tell me more, like how, like what sort of certifications, what sort of skill sets, what kind of knowledge do they need to have? Because you said you were learning about H VAC systems and about reflective ceiling plans and that's a lot.
- [23:07]
Renee Beery
It's a lot.
- [23:07]
Kate
That's not something you just sit down and watch one YouTube video on.
- [23:11]
Renee Beery
No. And depending on the state will determine what kind of licensing you need. All I know is that it doesn't seem to be. That an education doesn't seem to be needed in most states. But you would have, they would have to check in their own states, countries. I've heard Canada has a whole bunch of other licensing requirements. Florida is very strict on their licensing. So it really does vary state to state. But as far as getting the experience, the best thing to do is to start marketing for it. Because unless you're on a job site, you can't be learning how to be on a job site. And I always push back with designers, like, well, I want to do it, but I've never done it. I'm like, okay, have you ever done a project on your own home? And inevitably they're like, sure, I gutted my kitchen. Sure, I gutted my bathroom. I'm like, well, then you've done it. And we tend to dismiss all of that. Well, it wasn't with a client, that's fine. But you learned, you met trades, you understand, you know, point A to point Z. There are steps in there and to really start talking about it. When designers reach out to me, the very first thing I do is I jump on their website because I want to know who they are, where they are. And I always assume if they're coming to me, they're looking to ask about construction. And I can't tell you how many times me intentionally looking for it can't even find that service on their website. So marketing yourselves has to come. There has to be a through line. So if I'm talking to clients about doing construction management, my social media better have something to do with it as well. As well as my website. And until those kind of clean those up, you, of course, would know all of that. Until you clean all those up, the clients won't know to ask you. And I mean, heck, I have a podcast, and there are still times where clients will say, oh, wait, you can do that for me? I'm like, yes. You know, so it is something that the designer has to not only want it, but they have to start talking about it for sure.
- [25:15]
Kate
Yeah. Oh, I agree 100%. And I also have come across the same thing where someone will tell me, well, my ideal client is this. And they'll describe the person, and I'll go to the website and be like, okay, but your website's telling me something different. And if I'm confused and I know what to look for, you can bet they are confused too. And that's why they're not going to your contact page. That's why they're not calling you. Uh, so, yeah, putting out there what you want is definitely the first step, But I think a lot of us are nervous to do that.
- [25:45]
Renee Beery
Sure.
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Kate
So nervous because it feels uncomfortable. However, getting comfortable, too comfortable usually means we're becoming stagnant which means no growth is happening. So it's kind of this catch 22. Like, get used to being uncomfortable, I guess. Like, that's. That's really the only alternative.
- [26:02]
Renee Beery
Well, it's getting used to being uncomfortable and having the confidence that whatever it is you don't know, you can figure out.
- [26:09]
Kate
Yes.
- [26:10]
Renee Beery
Right. And so, for instance, if a designer will often come to me, say, well, I've been doing kitchens and baths, but I want to do a bigger renovation. I want to get to that, quote, next level in their mind. So. And great, then you need to start talking about that. Right. And then you need to start talking to your contractors. You need to start building. Industry partners and designers tend to think, I need to just get a client. Well, there's multiple ways of getting a client. We just talked about the social media, the website, the, you know, touch points with existing clients and previous clients. But frankly, realtors, contractors, and architects have the identical clients that we have, and every single one of them could recommend you if they understand your services. And so building that confidence comes from building a network. And so just because your contractor that you did three kitchens with, he probably has clients that do bigger projects, you need to tell the contractor, I'm looking to break into bigger projects. You know, these guys aren't sitting at home thinking, how can I build Renee's business? Right. You have to actually say, hey, John, I love working with you. What else do you have? I'm looking to whatever it is. Right. I want to do a new build. I want to do whatever the case may be. But. But again, I find that designers are like, oh, you know, actually I talked to John, and he's got this idea. It's just we're also in our head about how we go about it. We forget that there's things directly in front of us that can help us propel us forward.
- [27:47]
Kate
Yes, yes, absolutely. I call it making yourself easily referable and making yourself marketable. Nobody can refer you if they don't know you, if they don't know what you do. And that's why marketing is truly a relationship. And with designers, it just makes more sense from a strategy standpoint to go after the builders, the architects, and the realtors of what versus just individual homeowners, because that will only get you so far.
- [28:14]
Renee Beery
Absolutely.
- [28:15]
Kate
But. But when you have that ongoing referral relationship where you're bringing each other in on projects constantly versus having to each seek out your own leads, it just. It just makes sense, and it's a lot less work and ends up in bigger projects. So that is why like when I'm talking to my clients about how do you reach these people? Because that's usually the next question, like well, how do I get connected with the right builder who wants to work with an interior designer? These are questions that I go over with my clients all the time. But I'd be very curious to know what's your take on that? What is, what is step one? If you're a brand new designer and you've got no connections.
- [28:55]
Renee Beery
Truthfully, in my, you know, non scientific study, realtors are the easiest in they typically, or I shouldn't say typically, they are oftentimes women. So there's your first connection. They probably have a point of reference as far as feeling like the only girl in the, in the area because architects historically and contractors are male and they always need a list of referrals, right? You buy a house, they're going to give you this printed sheet that has a local lawn care, a plumber, a chimney sweep, all of those guys, and you want to be on it. Now it doesn't mean you're going to get every project, but you want to be that go to and a realtor is looking for someone that makes them look good, right? Everybody wants that. She doesn't want to refer me and then me be a flop that reflects poorly on her. So you build the relationship with the realtor and show them the work you've done. Share testimonials from clients, you know, however it is you can market your services and build those relationships one at a time. I find they're the easier ins because they're already looking to refer people. Whereas contractors I think is sort of that next level where you build into a ideally a relationship. That's not to say you can't cold call, it's just a harder cold call because first of all you, you don't know if they've ever worked with an interior designer. It's just a lot more education that you're going to have to involve. And honestly I love architects. We would all be out of business without them. They are the hardest in my experience to get in one. They sometimes have in house interior design and more often than not they think they can do it themselves. So you've got that kind of rub. So I have designers all day long that are making huge headways with realtors. I have a realtor who I am the person she refers their mind to turn down because they'll say oh, Victoria told me to call you, you must be great. I didn't have to do anything.
- [31:05]
Kate
That's awesome.
- [31:06]
Renee Beery
I'm coming in with, I must be great. I guess I must be. And so that's what is the game changer. Because I am not relying on my clients to, who knows what, host a party and then shower me with praise and hope that one person that she talks to, to at that moment needs help. Right? It is. To your point, it's much, much harder to get a constant flow of incoming clients simply from your client base.
- [31:38]
Kate
That brings up, actually the podcast episode of yours I listened to. I listened to the one where you did this beautiful project and then your client threw a party and then didn't give credit where credit was due.
- [31:51]
Renee Beery
Correct. Do you.
- [31:52]
Kate
Do you mind giving my listeners a little summary of that story? Because that will hit home with a lot of us.
- [31:58]
Renee Beery
Is that the one where I was standing right next to her? Because it's happened before. I was standing right next to her and actually not the first experience. It was the first experience where it was my own firm. I worked for a woman in New York. Exact same thing happened. And I was introduced and the woman said, I love your home to my client. And she said, thank you so much. I really love doing it. And you're like, oh, okay, that's where we're going with this. You know, it is the client's prerogative. It is her home. I did photograph it. So if this same woman went and saw my site and I could see, oh, wait a minute, that's, you know, Jane's living room. But it is a challenge and why I don't rely on only clients. Also, the other thing, with clients, I have a really amazing client. Her friend base are not in her same socioeconomic level. They cannot afford to hire me. They love what I did. Some of them have even said that, if only. So if I just relied on clients, that would be a huge loss for me right there. One whole client is off the books as far as being able to refer me to projects I'd like to.
- [33:14]
Kate
That's such an important distinction to make because it's totally fine to have those referrals coming in from clients. But I'll tell you, I work with people who are like, I've been in business for over a decade. I've never had to market a day in my life. I just had referral after referral coming in until suddenly I do not have referrals anymore, and I'm panicking. And they didn't take time to establish those industry relationships that you were talking about.
- [33:39]
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- [35:03]
Kate
Sure that you will have the right.
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- [35:28]
Kate
Kate for free activation. I would be curious though and I bet our listeners are too. Okay, so in that moment when you totally were probably expecting your client to be like oh well, you know what, Renee did a great job and she didn't say that she left you out of the picture entirely. It sounds like. Did you remain silent? Did you say something? If you could go back, would you have said something like because I have had clients tell me similar situations so I'm just wondering how you would handle that differently or at all.
- [35:59]
Renee Beery
So this was a while ago and I often will share on the podcast. If you had Talked to me 10 years ago, I would have different answers. So with age comes wisdom and at the time, I smiled. The woman did ask a question, and I jumped in. Not my client. The woman she was talking to asked a question about something, and my client sort of just looked a little bit at me, and I answered it on her behalf, because, frankly, she didn't have the answer. And so probably in that moment, there was an implied, this is my work, but it certainly was not me jumping in and correcting my client. At the time, I was. This was probably maybe 10, 12 years ago. I didn't feel it was my place because I contracted directly with my client, and what she says about the project is hers to say today. Would I have handled it differently? Yes. I probably would have found a polite way of jumping in and saying, oh, my gosh, thank you so much, Jane and I really enjoyed working on this. Thank you together. But again, that's a risk. It's a risk of insulting Jane. It's a risk of embarrassing Jane. And then you've got to run those quick stats of, okay, how many clients did I think Jane was going to give me? Well, it wasn't this one, so it's probably zero. So I probably would have done it. Right. So it's. It is a very, very nanosecond to make a big decision.
- [37:35]
Kate
Yeah, that is a stressful moment.
- [37:37]
Renee Beery
Yeah. Luckily, it is not common. I don't speak of my clients. My website doesn't show any identifying features, not even the cities and towns. And I always tell one, I live in a small enough community. My clients prefer that I don't, and that's fine with me. In New York City, we were not allowed to speak of who our clients were, so it's sort of ingrained in me. But if a client friend comes to me and says, hey, you know, I saw Jane's house. She loved working with you, then I'm okay. Then I feel comfortable speaking about it. But every designer can, you know, decide that on their own. That's what has worked well for us.
- [38:16]
Kate
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And there's a lot of nuance, like you said, what city you're in, the culture of that client.
- [38:23]
Renee Beery
Absolutely.
- [38:24]
Kate
Potential of that client. Oh, my goodness. So switching gears a little bit, when I was combing through your website, which is full of helpful information, by the way, everyone listening or watching should go check her out. But you were talking a little bit about the unique niches or niches, depending on where you are in the country. You say it differently in construction management that an interior designer could fill to make herself more memorable and more marketable. So what Are some of those. Those specialties.
- [38:53]
Renee Beery
So I find there are a lot of designers who really want kitchens and baths. That's their jam. It's what they've always done. They feel they're most confident in those projects, and then they'll come to me and they'll say, but I think I should probably be doing more. And my answer is always, well, why? If you are confident, if you have a pipeline filled with work and you're making the income you're wanting, then why? Well, I think I should be. You know, so we get in our heads about that. I have personally never specialized in. In kind of what I would call, like you said, a sort of a subsection, a niche inside of a niche, mainly because I enjoy doing all of it. And. But I. I would say kitchens and baths are a big one. I also think people will only do new builds. There are designers who only do new builds. You know, those are specialties within. But it can be anything. I have designers that I work with that are cabinet specialty. They do all the design work, and they sell kitchen cabinets directly to designers or directly to a contractor. So there is a lot to be done under this umbrella of the construction management portion, which I call a niche inside of our grander umbrella of interior design.
- [40:15]
Kate
Yeah, yeah. So it's another issue of get out of your own way, get out of your own head. And. Yeah, and that's hard. That's, like, one of the hardest things to conquer in business.
- [40:27]
Renee Beery
Absolutely. And. And I think it stems from most designers are working in very small firms and. Or alone. And so who are you bouncing ideas off? Who are you gaining confidence from if it's just you? Right. And I think some of this stems from. So I have three best friends from design school, and we're scattered all throughout the country. There's California, there's Colorado, and Long island, and myself in Delaware. And we all did the construction management. We have plenty of friends from design school. Never touched it, had no interest in it. And when texting started, well, we used to call each other, you know, to kvetch and complain and look for help. Then we now have a text stream. And at one point, I think it was during COVID one of them was like, wow, you know, we are so lucky. And I probably would have gotten out if I didn't have you guys. And that sort of prompted me as well to kind of dive in to the podcast to be that tech stream, to be that, you know, support system. Like, I can't tell you how many designers have just emailed me and said, you know, I know what I'm doing, but, God, it's nice to hear that other people are doing it, too. And being alone, being that only fill in the blank is really hard. It's really hard. And as creatives, I, at least am. I like to bounce ideas off of people. I mean, I, Yes, I feel I can come up with great ideas, but it's always nice to be like, am I nuts, or do you think this works? And if there's no one to ask, it can be challenging. And of course you're going to get all spiraling down in your head and all the horrible things that could go wrong. It's just a matter of building a community. And I'm really proud that. And truthfully did not anticipate the community that we would build.
- [42:21]
Kate
Yeah. Because not only have you built a community around design, but it's around a particular issue in design, which makes it even more memorable. And I think that's really why people keep coming back and why they keep reaching out to you, because they feel seen and they feel heard. Because it's. It's one thing. Like, it's hard enough running a design firm. It's a very difficult business to run. But then, okay, now you're adding construction management services, and there's a whole other pricing strategy. There's a whole other workflow. There's. There may even be additional team members to bring on. And it's a lot. It is hard. And when you have someone who knows what you're going through and where you're trying to go, that's like the biggest thing. That's what I hear from a lot of people when they're looking for a marketer or a business coach. They're like, I've been talking to all these people, and that looks like they can all help me, but they don't understand me. They don't understand what I'm trying to do. So I can see why they're magnetized to your podcast and to the brand that you've built, because it's. You see them in a way that other people simply don't.
- [43:23]
Renee Beery
Well, it goes to the point where. And I know we've all experienced this, most people think what I do for a living is fun, Right? Oh, my gosh. My sister has a great sense of color. And I'm going, oh, okay, good for her. Why is that relevant? And, oh, I saw it on hgtv. Is it just like that? Oh, no, not even close. It's the bane of my existence, actually.
- [43:50]
Kate
Amen.
- [43:50]
Renee Beery
And so because we're not seen as professional as we deserve, it is more challenging. Right. Because it is a crazy business. And in what we get involved with. If only it was so easy as picking furniture out. Right. If only that was the big hurdle. But I have to balance the emotions of a client, the quality of life they're trying to achieve, the family dynamics they've got going on. I know if my client sleeps on the left side or the right side of the bed, I am in spaces that no one else is allowed into in that house. It's mentally draining. There's a lot there. And then a friend will say, oh, what you do must be so fun. Yes, of course there's some fun. I would have left the industry if it wasn't. But none of the other stuff they even consider as quote, what I would consider is normal to factor into every single project. And then when you get into construction and that much more money and that much more commitment and that much more at stake, it's, it's off the charts. And so I'm happy to, to be the person that says, I totally hear you. And wait till you hear how I screwed that up one time. I, you know, I, I'm not embarrassed for screwing up. I didn't always learn on the first time. I'm, you know, human.
- [45:20]
Kate
You're human.
- [45:21]
Renee Beery
Human. But, you know, I think it's, it's important to be supporting the industry that one has done, you know, taking good care of me. And, and I see the incredible value that we bring. And so I want to help other designers bring that same incredible value to, to their clients. Because ultimately I don't know of too many industries that can say I improve the quality of my clients daily lives. Yeah, because we do. It's huge. Especially post Covid, right, where we're all in our homes a lot more. We're all trying to, you know, be together more, do more things in the home. And, and I think it's really, it is weighty. It's a big responsibility, but it's not one that's insurmountable by any means.
- [46:12]
Kate
No, no. And yes. The emotional and mental burden of running a business, but then also running this type of business, it's nothing to shake a stick at really. And one thing that a lot of designers seem to struggle with, at least in my perspective, is when you start adding on more complex services like construction management, they always go back to, okay, how do I price this? What is my pricing strategy? Like, there's a big trend right now to use Flat fees versus hourly. I'm not sure if there is one that's better than the other. I think it depends on a lot of things, but I would love to know your take on that. Like, if someone's offering construction management services, what is the strategy for pricing that to make sure that you don't. They end up working for $6 an hour by the time everything's done.
- [47:00]
Renee Beery
So I will tell you, I'm always open about this. I was hourly until about a year and a half, actually, may now be two. Yeah, about a year and a half ago, it was how we did it in early in my industry or early in my career. It made sense, right? Time spent, time build. Client understood it. Renee's working, Renee's billing. And it wasn't. And I had friends for years beating me over the head. You must go to a flat fee, Renee. And I was like, nope, I got a system that works. I'm good. And, you know, as a busy designer, I'm like, look, I'm not looking to take on another task, which would have been researching how to do all that. So I pushed it off for as long as possible. And I have told the story before. I was listening to a podcast in my office. I was doing some just, you know, rote tasks and listening, and they were explaining that, you know, the better you are, the more seasoned you are, the more expert you become in your. In the business, you're making less money. And I said, I call bs. I just said it out loud as I never even stopped writing whatever note I was writing. And then I thought about it, and I thought about what I had just done. And a client had called looking for a special resource, and I had it. It was in my. I do keep a Rolodex. It was in my Rolodex. And in about probably four total minutes, I had texted the person, told them about the scope of work. He had given me a ballpark estimate. Now, I got lucky because he saw the text right away. So in a matter of four minutes, I had the person I wanted to do the work and had a ballpark estimate that I could give to a client. And I didn't charge the client. Why would I. Took me four minutes, and I thought, oh, my God, okay, The universe has been trying to yell at me for a while about this. And so I did go out on a mission, and I did a lot of research. And what I found frustrated me even more because I don't know two designers that come up with a flat fee the same way. And it Just tells me that pricing what we do is challenging. I am never going to lie about that. Do I always nail it? Nope. I don't. The goal is to get it as close as possible. And where I see designers go wrong is they don't add in procurements on construction projects. They don't feel that they should. And I have no clue why that is so. For instance, on a bathroom project, I will be doing the tile, purchasing the stone, if we're using that for countertop, maybe the plumbing. It depends. There's so little margin. I'll do the decorative lighting. I'll do the mirror. I'll do the, you know, and all of that adds in. So if I'm, you know, a couple hours short for who knows what reason, maybe there was a huge surprise that nobody could have foreseen, then I'm covered. And I tell the designers who are not doing the procurements that they really do need to dial in that, that flat fee entirely. So what I did, I have a client that I did a new build with, and she paid my hourly the whole way through. And I called her and I said, listen, I'm looking to change to a flat fee. Tell me about this. And she said, I would have loved for you to have had a flat fee. She is still a client of mine, so we are. Didn't obviously impact our relationship. And she said, I would have loved to have known what my cost all in would have been. That makes sense, right? She's trying to budget. She's like, some months you'd send me a bill that was several thousand dollars. The next month it may have been an $800 bill, and the next month it might have been a $10,000 bill. And she said, you know, look, the reality is I had the money, but yes, it would have been nice. And she goes, I don't doubt any of the time you spent. I saw you there. I kind of knew it'd be a bigger bill because of all the work you had done. And I get it. And she said, that being said, would I have believed in the beginning how much time you would have spent? I'm not sure I would have. And that did not deter me. But what that told me is how much education I need to bring on the forefront, what exactly I would be doing for her. And ever since then, I've not had a single client turn it down. I've actually had clients thanked me in advance because they said, now I know what I'm budgeting for.
- [51:29]
Kate
Wow.
- [51:30]
Renee Beery
But it is, it's not easy. I will never sugarcoat that it is not easy to do.
- [51:35]
Kate
No, but there are some really key things here. Like the more you do something, the faster and the better you get at it. But if you're billing hourly, then you're making less. So you're kind of punishing yourself for being very proficient.
- [51:46]
Renee Beery
Exactly.
- [51:47]
Kate
And then your business can't grow.
- [51:49]
Renee Beery
Correct. Now, what I see with construction management and where I see designers go wrong, is they don't understand their role. They don't understand which part will be in their, you know, to do list. Right. They don't quite understand. They know under. They understand the selections process. Right. They get that part. Part, but then it's the actual day in and day out, like, what is my role going to be? And that's where they get in trouble. They will guess, they will make educated guesses, but they're not factoring in all of it. And so what I did with the course that I built for the designers in the beginning, I did not intentionally include anything about pricing because I was still working through it myself. And I certainly don't want to put something out there that I didn't fully either believe or understand. And so about a year, six, eight months ago, I thought, okay, I got to do it. And so the importance is understanding the phases of construction. And designers often miss some. And so they think, okay, we got to demolish the room. Okay, check how many hours do I think it's going to take. And then, okay, then we got to put it all back together. Right. And they sort of glean over all of these other stages and steps that the contractor will be requesting their whatever input, their approval, their, you know, selections. And that's where they're getting upside down. I mean, I had a designer, she said, I estimated 50 hours, Renee, I'm at 90, and we're not done. And my heart wept for her. Again. Not that I haven't been there, maybe not that extreme, but I get it. And it's heart wrenching because not only are you looking at your bottom line, but I can guarantee you her heart wasn't in it. She was panicked when she went there. She probably went as little as humanly possible to not make it worse. And ultimately she's making it worse for herself because the project will suffer. Right. So it's just this all encompassing issue, not just dollars and cents, which of course is paramount to keeping you in business.
- [54:11]
Kate
Yes. Oh, my goodness. And the way that people in the design industry look at their pricing, the way that, let's just be honest, the way that women look at pricing is very emotional.
- [54:22]
Renee Beery
Yes.
- [54:23]
Kate
And that's, I mean, we are emotional creatures. Like, that's not necessarily, it's not a bad thing. But we have to like point it in the right direction and use it as a tool in the right ways. So getting over the emotional side of oh my goodness, okay, my flat fee is now this. Because this is what the numbers pan out to. Like, this is what it is. It's not an emotion, it's just a number. But I feel sick about it. I worry that someone's not going to want to work with me because this is my flat fee. What would you say to that?
- [54:50]
Renee Beery
They might not. Yeah. And be okay with that. Don't. They're not your client. Because if you have put in the time and you have developed that price structure and that is what you need to cover yourself, make a profit, then you need a client that says yes. And I think that's where I know I've gotten myself into trouble. Right. The phone doesn't ring for a while and you're like, okay, I'll do it. And you're not thinking it through, like, okay, I could do it, but what does that impact me on the other side? Right. Because you're now mentally, you know, set in another project. You know, I, I, you know, it's funny, I once told someone, this is years ago, they're like, well, how many projects you. And this is a non related to design. It was a social friend. How many projects are you working on? And I think at the time I said seven and she's like, oh, oh, okay. Well that, you know. Wow, good. Yeah, that's okay. That's great. And in my head I should have been working four because we're the opposite. Right. Like busy people. We're having more projects, more clients, more this. Yeah. There's only so many hours in the day and so if I'm working four projects, that tells me they're more profitable and they're larger scopes. But to the outside world it's, oh, good luck next year. You know, they just don't understand.
- [56:12]
Kate
No, they don't. And that's what the, the education part of marketing is probably the least fun.
- [56:18]
Renee Beery
Oh yeah.
- [56:18]
Kate
In, in my experience, even with what I do, like people are like, you're doing email marketing? What the heck? Is email still a thing? Yes, it is. And I've, I had to spend probably the first five years of my business educating people on what that was. And then I turned around and saw that my designer, organizer, home stager, Clients are having the same struggle because they'll be told, oh, I can just do it myself. My sister's good with color. She'll help me with this part, and then you can help me with this other part.
- [56:44]
Renee Beery
No, no, no, no, no.
- [56:45]
Kate
Like, I do it all or not at all. Because that's not how this works. But that takes a certain level of confidence and a certain level of strategy to be like, how am I going to educate people on what I'm doing so they understand why I'm charging what I'm charging? Because it really all then comes down to perceived value. And I remind myself, I remind my clients all the time that if you aren't getting the clients that you want, go back and look at what you're saying on your website, in your blog posts, in your email, in your social. Are you showing people the nitty gritty of what you do and how complex it actually is? Because once they see that, suddenly the number that you're charging them becomes not only justifiable, but maybe even sounds like a good deal, because, oh, my goodness, I don't want to deal with that. I don't want that kind of stress. Someone else should handle it, and I'll pay you all the money to handle it.
- [57:34]
Renee Beery
Absolutely. And I found recently there was. Seemed to be several designers in a row reaching out. They're like, I'm doing all the design work and. But they're not letting me or they're not bringing me on the project management part. And I'm like, okay, that. How. How are you structuring your. Your contract? Like, oh, it's two separate contracts. I'm like, okay, well, you're giving them the option to say, no, thank you. I said, I don't give that option. If you want me for my design, you need me through the project management. Because I said, are they still calling you? They're like, absolutely. The contractor, there was a problem. They found something. We had to redesign something. Now what do I do? Because I'm not technically in the involved, but yet I am. And yeah, and that's what you have to explain to the client. I am the only one that can stay bring that through line of the design through completion, because something will go wrong. I mean, every single project has surprises. I can't tell you what they'll be or how many. But yes, that's the problem is designers were giving their clients an out. Oh, I think I got it. I think I can manage it. Or what I hear a lot of is, well, that's what the contractor's supposed to do. No, no. The contractor supposed to actually construct designs. He is not there to redesign. He is not there to interpret designs. I don't know a single contractor who wants to do that, actually.
- [58:51]
Kate
Oh, absolutely not. They're like, get this out of here. Like, I'm here to build stuff.
- [58:56]
Renee Beery
Work that out, and call me when you're done. It's usually what I get. Yeah.
- [59:00]
Kate
Everyone has to have their specific, designated, clearly defined role, not just internally, but for the sake of the client, so they understand, here's why you're paying the contractor this much, here's why you're paying the designer that much, and here's why they need to work together and be involved from beginning to the end and to kind of wrap all of that up. If you could give designers one piece of advice that they could walk away from this episode and just. Just ponder, what would that be?
- [59:30]
Renee Beery
You want them to ponder or you want them to move into action?
- [59:34]
Kate
Well, what are the other. Some. Some of. Some of my designers really have to think about things long and hard before they take action.
- [59:40]
Renee Beery
Good. No, and. And they should. Right. This is not meant for every designer. I firmly believe that there are some designers who don't want to be the only girl. They don't want to be singled out in that manner. They. They want to simply do the decorating. And that is fantastic. Right. And so I would ponder whether this is something that you truly want to do or you think you should do.
- [60:08]
Kate
Oh, yes.
- [60:08]
Renee Beery
Because I love being on a job site. I love when there are problems. I mean. Well, I mean, I don't love having problems, but it's. It's putting a puzzle together. It's. I always tell people it bends a different side of my brain than the decorating world does. I hear a lot of designers say all contractors are jerks. All contractors, you know, are hard to work with. Again, 30 years in. If that was true, I am not a glutton. I would have left. There are lots and lots of really wonderful contractors who want our help. They may not know it right away or they may not know how to find you. And I think those two can be overcome. And the architects, again, there are architects who like working with us. They're just a little bit tougher nut to crack. As far as, you know, it's playing nice in the sandbox. But I would really give it some thought as to. Is this something you want. Want to do? And if it is, there are so many opportunities out there that, I mean, you read any industry magazine that, that that construction is on the boom, it's not going away. And. And there's always going to be projects that need help.
- [61:36]
Kate
So if someone listening is like, okay, sign me up. I do want to be the only girl on the job site. I want to know how to do this really well. How can they work with you, learn from you, get all this knowledge that you spent over 30 years amassing.
- [61:51]
Renee Beery
So I have the podcast Only girl on the Job site and that comes out weekly on Tuesdays. And you can listen to it either from my site or on any of the platforms. And I try. I do a lot of solo episodes just sharing experiences, but I also have interviews so you can learn from others because I know how much value there is in other people's experiences. I also have some resources on my website that just solely for designers. There's a whole tab for designers, whether it is a pre renovation checklist that they can use to make sure that it's the right time for a project for their client. And all the way to a construction workbook that can help them build a team. What to look for with contractors asking questions really how to organize that. And then I built a course out of the need from my community that was coming through from the podcast and that's called the Interior Designer's Guide to Construction Management. It is a very robust five modules. There's over 85 lessons in it, probably total. It does total a little over 10 hours of content. And it's broken down, I know we're all really busy, so it's broken down into small self paced videos and courses. It has the templates I use, email drafts. It has everything from marketing all the way through to punch list. Because if you can't market for a project, if you can't get a project, then you certainly can't move through all the processes. And now it has the five lessons on pricing and which has really taken on a life of its own because that is such a need for the designers that I come into contact with. We also opened inside the course a private Facebook group for ongoing support. And that has been super fun because really nothing's off limits. So we talk about all sorts of things. And then recently we added live master classes. So we take a big concept and we break it down into a live masterclass with the course members with a live Q and A at the end. So there's a lot of ongoing support because it's so critical. You know, at different stages of a project, designers will have very different questions and needs. And so we, the course covers all of that. But then also there's access to me as well as all the other members in the course.
- [64:19]
Kate
And where. What is the website address for all of us?
- [64:22]
Renee Beery
It is www.devinierdesign.com. i was blessed, they'll say. I say cursed at birth. That is my middle name. Everyone always wonders where on earth it came from. And so hopefully it'll be in the show notes. And it is. Yes, it will sometimes hard to spell. I understand that. But it was something I chose 24 years ago when I went out on my own and it sort of stuck.
- [64:50]
Kate
Yeah, I like it. It's very elegant.
- [64:51]
Renee Beery
That works.
- [64:53]
Kate
But thank you for creating all these resources for the industry and. And for coming on the show today and being willing to talk about all of this. I know that your time is valuable, and I do know that there is going to be quite a few people listening who are like, okay, I'm at least going to go listen to her podcast, because that's where it. That's where it begins. You know, for a lot of people, the podcasting is the gateway drug to all the things and all the information. So thank you very much.
- [65:17]
Renee Beery
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why there's all these different forms of content, because everybody wants to get their information in a different way.
- [65:25]
Kate
Yep. And a lot of people like to listen on their way to the job site.
- [65:28]
Renee Beery
Yes, I've heard that. It's quite funny, actually.
- [65:32]
Kate
Yes. All right, everybody listening? You heard the lady. Head over to Only Girl on the Job Site podcast. Get started there. It is a wonderful place to start. Even though I'm not a designer, I found the episodes to be pretty interesting, entertaining, and there's a lot of value there. So I'm excited about that. And until next time, guys, keep your marketing simple, your message clear, and I.
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Renee Beery
Will talk to you soon.