Fmr. NIH Director Dr. Francis Collins

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Late Show Pod Show with Stephen Colbert

Episode: Former NIH Director Dr. Francis Collins
Release Date: August 4, 2025
Host: Stephen Colbert
Guest: Dr. Francis Collins, Physician, Geneticist, and Presidential Medal of Freedom Recipient

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Introduction

In this episode of The Late Show Pod Show with Stephen Colbert, host Stephen Colbert welcomes back Dr. Francis Collins, the former director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The conversation delves into Dr. Collins' tenure at the NIH, his recent departure, the current state of scientific research funding in the United States, and his insights from his latest book, The Road to Wisdom.

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Discussion on Dr. Collins' Departure from NIH

Stephen Colbert opens the dialogue by acknowledging Dr. Collins' retirement from the NIH and his continued commitment to running a research lab. He inquires about the reasons behind Dr. Collins' decision to step down after a 12-year tenure under three different presidential administrations.

Dr. Francis Collins explains that his departure was not initially planned but became inevitable due to increasing restrictions imposed on scientific research. He states:

"After January 20th, I'm running a research lab. We get instructions that we are not supposed to go to scientific meetings, not supposed to speak to the public in any sort of way. We're not allowed to order any supplies to do the research. And basically, we're told don't start any new projects, don't do anything innovative. Just keep doing the kinds of things that you were already doing, but nothing new." (04:58)

Colbert succinctly summarizes this predicament:

"So go ahead and be a scientist, but don't do science, don't do those things." (05:26)

Dr. Collins articulates his frustration with the imposed limitations, noting that staying under such constraints was untenable. He felt unable to pursue new scientific ideas and innovations, leading to his decision to leave.

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State of NIH and Scientific Morale

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of Dr. Collins' departure for the NIH and the scientific community in the U.S.

Dr. Collins paints a bleak picture of the current morale within the NIH:

"The morale at NIH is the lowest I've ever seen it. People who really thought they were there to make that next breakthrough happen or at least build a pathway towards that aren't sure anymore whether that's still possible." (06:16)

He expresses particular concern for young scientists facing a "brain drain," mentioning that even his top graduate students are considering opportunities abroad due to limited prospects in the U.S. This reversal contrasts with the traditional view of the United States as a leader in attracting top scientific talent.

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Impact on Research and Future Healthcare

Addressing the immediate and long-term consequences of the NIH's restricted operations, Dr. Collins underscores the detrimental effects on critical research areas:

"Cancer research, Alzheimer's disease, rare diseases caused by genetic misspellings, you name it. HIV research was pretty much stopped cold. And certainly vaccine research has taken a serious downward turn." (07:43)

He warns that halting foundational research jeopardizes future medical breakthroughs:

"Medical miracles don't happen overnight. You have to invest in them. Our investments are in trouble now." (08:43)

Colbert reinforces the significance of this halt in research, particularly emphasizing cancer research as a critical area:

"I'm going to say cancer research, cancer." (07:55)

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Insights from "The Road to Wisdom"

Transitioning to Dr. Collins' book, The Road to Wisdom, the discussion explores themes of societal polarization and the role of the "Exhausted Middle."

Colbert inquires about the "Exhausted Middle," to which Dr. Collins responds:

"It's about two-thirds of the country that has the best chance of bringing us back to where we want to be." (08:57)

He identifies several "deficits" plaguing society:

• Truth Deficit: Erosion of trust due to the proliferation of falsehoods.
• Civility Deficit: Decline in respectful discourse.
• Compassion Deficit: A troubling normalization of indifference towards the suffering of others.

Dr. Collins emphasizes the most alarming of these:

"The compassion deficit. Stephen. What happened to us? How can it have become normalized not to be concerned about our fellow human beings?" (10:14)

He highlights the real-world consequences of this deficit, citing the withdrawal of support from organizations like USAID and PEPFAR, leading to preventable child deaths:

"Predictions are that since the plug was pulled on USAID and PEPFAR, 90,000 children have died unnecessarily." (10:13)

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Call to Action

Concluding the interview, Dr. Collins urges society to reclaim compassion as a fundamental value to ensure future prosperity and societal well-being.

"We gotta get that back. And I think that's up to us. If we want to flourish as a society, that's what we need to do." (10:13)

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Conclusion

Stephen Colbert wraps up the episode by promoting Dr. Collins' book and encouraging listeners to engage with more content on The Late Show YouTube channel.

Dr. Francis Collins shares a poignant observation regarding the current state of scientific research and societal values, emphasizing the urgent need for reinvestment in science and a rekindling of compassion within society.

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Notable Advertisements and Sponsor Segments

While the episode includes segments promoting Wonderful Pistachios and other sponsors, these were skipped in this summary to focus on the core content of the conversation with Dr. Francis Collins.

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Stay Tuned: For more insightful discussions and exclusive clips, visit The Late Show YouTube channel and tune in to the live show on CBS weeknights at 11:35/10:35c or stream on Paramount+.

Transcript

[Stephen Colbert]

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[Jon Batiste]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Dr. Francis Collins]

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[Jon Batiste]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Jon Batiste]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Jon Batiste]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Late Show Announcer]

It'S the Late Show Poncho with Stephen Colbert.

[Stephen Colbert]

Welcome back, everybody. Ladies and gentlemen, my next guest tonight is a brilliant physician, geneticist and Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient who served as the director of the National Institutes of health for 12 years. Please welcome back to the Late Show, Dr. Francis Collins. Nice to see you again.

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Great to be here with you, Stephen.

[Stephen Colbert]

Always good to talk to you. I love science, I love scientists. You know, my dad was at the NIH for many years. Earlier this year, you retired from the National Institutes of Health. You were no longer the director, but you were still over there doing research.

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Running a research lab.

[Stephen Colbert]

Okay. You served there as director for 12 years, as I said, under three presidents. Why was now the time to leave?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Well, I hadn't really planned that until it became pretty untenable to stay.

[Stephen Colbert]

And why? Why was it untenable?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Well, after January 20th, I'm running a research lab. We get instructions that we are not supposed to go to scientific meetings, not supposed to speak to the public in any sort of way. We're not allowed to order any supplies to do the research. And basically we're told don't start any new projects, don't do anything innovative. Just keep doing the kinds of Things that you were already doing, but nothing new.

[Stephen Colbert]

So go ahead and be a scientist, but don't do science, don't do those things. Exactly.

[Dr. Francis Collins]

And I thought that'll be a short term thing. But after a few weeks it was pretty clear that wasn't getting any better. And I felt like, why am I here? I'm completely muzzled. I'm not able to come up with scientific ideas with my team that I'd.

[Stephen Colbert]

Like to purs was any rationale given for, for, for this?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

I think it was pretty clear. The message was this is a government agency, the National Institutes of Health. It's probably full of waste, fraud and abuse and we better just stop everything until we can figure out what we need to get rid of.

[Stephen Colbert]

Did they find any waste? Did they find any waste? Fraud and abuse?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Depending on who you ask, I would say very little. Having run the place for 12 years, the people at NIH, the most amazingly dedicated, hardworking, trying to find answers.

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, I assume you must, you know, having been there so long, you must have, you know, friends who are still over there. What do you hear?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

The morale at NIH is the lowest I've ever seen it. People who really thought they were there to make that next breakthrough happen or at least build a pathway towards that aren't sure anymore whether that's still possible. Particularly worried about young scientists who are maybe on this path towards being that next person to win the Nobel Prize. And now they're just not sure that that's going to be possible in the United States of America. And many of them, like one of my former graduate students, who can't seem to find an offer and a really good lab, even though it's probably the best student I've had in 10 years, he's looking at Australia. That's the kind of brain drain that's going to happen going the other way. We took wonderful benefit from having so many scientists come to our shores.

[Stephen Colbert]

The United States has always had the pick of the litter.

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Well, the vector is reversing.

[Stephen Colbert]

Where are they going? So Australia to help the kangaroos. Where else?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Europe, The United Kingdom? Depending on what language you speak, if you happen to be a Chinese student, the Chinese are offering you all kinds of opportunities to come back because, you know, China thought they had to compete with America to be top of the pack here. They must be looking at this and they can't believe their luck.

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, how long before we get a sense of this brain drain? Like how long before this is going to affect our future health care?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

I think it already has. Stephen, the kind of things that have happened in these six months, 2,500 projects were stopped without any particular reason to explain that. Cancer. Cancer.

[Stephen Colbert]

I'm going to say cancer research, cancer.

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Alzheimer's disease, rare diseases caused by genetic misspellings, you name it. HIV research was pretty much stopped cold. And certainly vaccine research has taken a serious downward turn. You can't just turn that back on again when it happens like that. And the way in which this plays out, what NIH does, is through the taxpayer support all over this country, supports all the science that you build as a foundation upon which that breakthrough may happen. It may not happen for 10 years, but we're mortgaging that opportunity now by having that foundation in such deep trouble. Medical miracles don't happen overnight. You have to invest in them. Our investments are in trouble now.

[Stephen Colbert]

Your book, your book, the Road to Wisdom, hopes to find a way to unify our polarized society. You appeal to a group in this book called the Exhausted Middle.

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Yes.

[Stephen Colbert]

Who are they?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

I'm saving these people out here.

[Stephen Colbert]

What can we do to help? How can we actually do that?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

Yeah. I think people are just worn out with all the controversy, all the outrage Olympics that seems to be flying back and forth all the time, the animosity, the grievances. It's just like, ah, I'm gonna have to check out. But that's the group. It's about two thirds of the country that has the best chance of bringing us back to where we want to be. And our nation has lots of problems. We worry about things like our national debt, what you might call a fiscal deficit. But, Stephen, we have other deficits that politics aren't going to solve. Maybe they're making it worse. There's a truth deficit. We are in a place now. Yeah. Where there seems to be no real penalty for saying something that's demonstrably false. It just. It's okay. No, it's not. We have a trust deficit where. Because people don't know if they can be sure somebody's telling the truth, why should I trust that person? So we stop trusting each other most of the time. And that's dangerous also for our future. And we certainly have a civility deficit. But you know what I'm worried about most?

[Stephen Colbert]

What are you most worried about?

[Dr. Francis Collins]

The compassion deficit. Stephen. What happened to us? How can it have become normalized not to be concerned about our fellow human beings? Even if they're not living in our house? Maybe they're down the street suffering, or maybe they're in another part of the globe suffering. Predictions are that since the plug was pulled on USAID and PEPFAR, 90,000 children have died unnecessarily. That's the prediction from the people who follow this closely. And yet where's the outrage? Why are people looking the other way? Where's our compassion? We gotta get that back. And I think that's up to us. If we want to flourish as a society, that's what we need to do.

[Stephen Colbert]

His book, the Road to Wisdom is available now. Dr. Francis Collins thank you Dr. Thank you for listening to the Late Show Pod show with Stephen Colbert. Just one more thing. If you want to see more of me, come to The Late Show YouTube channel for more clips and exclusives.

[Late Show Announcer]

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[Dr. Francis Collins]

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[Stephen Colbert]

Frame us until our names are cleared.

[Jon Batiste]

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[Stephen Colbert]

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[Dr. Francis Collins]

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