← The Law Firm Marketing Minute
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- [00:00]
A
What are some of those challenges that women in law face today?
- [00:04]
B
Like, very specifically, I mean, I'll start with the very, like, overarching huge problem, which is that the private practice workspace has not been set up for women to thrive.
- [00:14]
A
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Law Firm Marketing minute. As always, I'm your host, Smike, and today I have a great. A great guest today. I'm very excited about this episode. We've been connected on social media for a while now, would say, and she's got a lot of passion for what she does. Can't wait for her to explain to everybody. W. Huff, thank you so much for. For joining the podcast today.
- [00:40]
B
Yeah, thanks for having me on, Michael. I. It's. It's fun to be here and fun to finally see you in person.
- [00:46]
A
That's true. That's true. I mean, you know, digitally. Right. Digitally.
- [00:49]
B
Right.
- [00:49]
A
Digitally connected here. Right. The age. The digital age now. Cool. Awesome. Well, why don't you share with the audience a little bit about your background, what you do, and how you help people in the audience.
- [01:03]
B
Yeah, I happy to. So, hi, everyone. My name is Molly Puff, and I'm the founder of the Juris Consult Institute, which is a talent development program for women attorneys to help them become partner and then once they're junior partners, to help them build their book of business. So my real passion for women in the law comes from, you know, we have been graduating in equal numbers for well over 20 years from law school, and yet we still only make up 27% of law firm partners and leadership. And that's mostly white women. And so there is this huge gap from women making the leap from, you know, associate to partnership to equity partnership, and that's just not okay. And so there has to be more done for women to thrive in these spaces and in these workspaces. And so I always say that I can't solve of sexism, but I can solve this one problem of educating and empowering women to help them build a book of business to get more money, autonomy, and control in their hands. And I came to that passion from obviously being a lawyer myself. And so I started out in private practice and really learned that this was sort of the key that was going to make me successful in my career and had a lot of success with it pretty early on, which was great, great. And then I quickly realized that a lot of people don't actually know how to build a book of business. So I really became dedicated to learning how to do that. And so now I have this business as well as I'm now in house, and so I get to be the client as well and get to share all of my valuable insights and tips to my clients. So that's the, that's the fast, quick version of my, of my story.
- [02:45]
A
That's awesome. That's awesome. Was there, was there a point for you in terms of, like, your motivation to kind of break off from, um, working at a law firm? Was there, like, a point where you just, like, did something click that you were just like, you know what? Like, enough is enough, and I need to go down this path?
- [03:03]
B
Yeah. You know, I was really lucky in that I had a. Well, actually, let me take that back, Michael. I am working on saying that I'm not lucky, and I just said it.
- [03:12]
A
So let me know.
- [03:14]
B
I'm not lucky. I worked really hard.
- [03:16]
A
There you go.
- [03:18]
B
To all of our listeners out there. But I had a really great mentor that I spent a lot of time building a relationship with when I was in law school, and she sat me down my 3L year and said, molly, look, if you want to be a partner like me, you've got to learn how to build a book of business and develop these soft skills. It's not just about becoming a great attorney, which are your quote, unquote hard skills. It's everything outside of that, because as lawyers, you really are business owners. And that really clicked for me because I. That's where I would really thrive anyways. And what I really love. And so I loved the idea of, okay, I'm not just a lawyer, I'm a business owner, so how do I create my business? And once I sort of made that mindset shift, it just really took off for me. And so even in my first couple years of private practice, that was a huge focus of mine. I wasn't just focused on building my hard skills. I was really focused on building and growing my network because I didn't want to be a, A glorified associate for the rest of my life.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [04:22]
B
So that was a big switch for me.
- [04:23]
A
Honestly, that, that's, like, so in tune with, with what we preach here at Spotlight in terms of, like, yes, we, we understand that you guys went to law school to become lawyers, and what you do is, is, is awesome. But if you own a law firm, then you're a business owner.
- [04:40]
B
Right.
- [04:41]
A
And there's, there's a whole new world to that. So it's, it's cool. Cool that you, you brought that up and, and, and made that connection there. That's awesome.
- [04:47]
B
That's awesome. Yeah.
- [04:49]
A
So so, so take me to, like, the very specific, like, time when you. When you decide, hey, you know what? I'm gonna go down this path and. And basically help women in law.
- [05:02]
B
Yeah. It happened for me probably three or four years ago now. And, you know, as you're sort of rising through the ranks of. Of private practice, you start out with all of these women, and you're like, these are such smart, talented women. This is so much fun. And then you look to your left, you look to your right, and there's fewer and fewer and fewer for a multitude of reasons. Right. We don't. There's so many reasons. And that was really frustrating and discouraging and isolating for me. And so when I recognized that I had this skill and I was successful at it and learning how to build a book of business, I quickly realized that I had all of these other women asking me, how are you doing this? Like, what is this? How do you know everyone? Or, like, how do you somehow walk into a room and know these people? Or, you know, how are you getting these connections with. In house counsel or whatever it might be? And so it just sort of clicked for me a few years ago, where I was really already coaching women without the, you know, the term coach being there, which I think the legal world also really shies away from. And so that was really interesting. And so once I sort of made that switch, I just said, man, I should really start and see if I can do this for somebody else. Because it's one thing to do it for yourself. It's a whole other thing to do it for someone else. And so I spent about a year working with a woman to see if I could help, really help her. And it was incredible to watch her not only build her confidence, grow her network, get clients in the door, but her career really transformed. And I thought, okay, holy crap, if I can do this for her, like, let's see how many women I can do this for. And so that's when I officially launched my business, and it's been just like riding the rocket ever since.
- [06:58]
A
Yeah, if you're thinking about starting your own law firm or maybe you've already made that jump and you have your own law firm. Whatever the case may be, you do need an effective marketing plan. It's just part of the process, part of being a business owner. And this might seem like a difficult task at first, but we've made it a little easier for you. We have a free marketing plan template that we've created exclusively for solo and small law firms. You can check the podcast description, download it today, and get started. All right, let's get right back to it. Let's talk about that. Obviously, you don't have to name names here, but let's talk about that very specific story, because obviously that was the part that catapulted you into what you're doing now. So what was that journey like? Like, how'd you kind of navigate through that?
- [07:47]
B
Yeah, a lot of speed bumps, a lot of failure, a lot of just like, trial and error. I think, you know, something that people often come to me now is they say, wow, you know, I love your branding. This is so amazing. I had terrible branding and terrible pictures and horrible everything for the first two years of my business, but it just didn't matter because the results that I was getting for women is what mattered. So now I'm in a spot where I have the money to be able to invest in those things. And it does matter. It just helps you reach more people. But at the beginning, it really was okay. How do I truly just focus on my program and the talent development that I'm offering women? And that has continued to grow and change every year. I mean, every year I reevaluate it to make sure it is serving the client clients that I have. So it just was a lot of trial and error of trying to figure out what exactly worked and how do I replicate it for other people. And yeah, so it really was just the. I've just got to start and figure this out and be okay with it not being perfect, which is. Was incredibly hard as a recovering perfectionist, people pleaser.
- [09:05]
A
Yeah. So let's talk about. Obviously you had, you know, the, the. There's challenges in, in just being a business owner, you know, yourself. But let's talk about. Because you. You are. You are helping other women face challenges themselves while also facing challenges yourself of. Of being a business owner. Just everyday challenges. So what are some of those challenges that women in law face today? Like, very specifically.
- [09:36]
B
I mean, I'll start with the very, like, overarching huge problem, which is that the private practice workspace has not been set up for women to thrive. It is a model that was built for men who had wives at home. And I, I don't mean that as a dig on those men. I just mean it just wasn't built for us. And so in my opinion, that really has to change, because otherwise it just doesn't. That's why you see such disparity in women making it to partnership and leadership. Because, I mean, even look at the Workday, the workday is 9 to 5 and most women have to go pick up their kids at 3:30 and drop off is, you know, even after that sometimes. So it just isn't set up for women to really thrive. So there has to be ways that we can be flexible in how we are supporting women. And I think when you get into the mentality of oh well, if you're not working nine to five, how the heck are you going to be productive and squeeze every minute of every day out of, you know, this productivity machine? And that's just not true. I mean, look what, look at what happened over the pandemic when, you know, we all went from work from home and productivity skyrocketed and we were all fine just because a model changed. So I think we have to be really open to that. And I think that in and of itself is really the biggest problem. The other problem is the billable hour model. When you're asking people to bill every six minutes of their day, it's just not sustainable. When we talk about mental health and we always talk about how micromanaging is the worst, that is like the biggest form of micromanaging. And I get that it's how we've set up the law practice, but I think something really has to change with that. So that's another really big problem is just the sustainability of the billable hour model. And then you're also dealing with sexism, misogyny, sexual harassment. I mean all of that still exists. And I think when I entered the profession I was really blown away by the amount of stories I was hearing from my friends around all three of those topics. And not, and, and also racism and all of these different things that you have a lot of really, I think people who just haven't had to change or holding on to power in these firms and when that occurs and they have no incentive to change, why would they? Yeah, you know, so I, there's just a lot of barriers like that. You know, I have friends at firms that don't even have parental leave policies still. So there's just things like that that come up over and over again for women. And it's, you know, women also get, when we talk about the non billable work, it's often women that are being assigned the non billable work or the office work or you know, things that they're not asking their male counterparts to do. So there's a laundry list of things and, and that makes it sound terrible and dark and, and it is really hard, but there's Also so much joy and beauty and doing things differently and doing it your own way. And that has really been my journey. And the women that I work with and finding their own path and really, I think, infusing vision back into their practice and into their lives of what they want out of being an attorney. So that was a long winded answer. You opened up a can of worms there, Michael. But there you go.
- [13:04]
A
This is. This is. This. This podcast is all about cans of worms. Like, the longer that we could talk about something, the better. I love it. I love it. So in terms of your. Your work and how you take these women on this journey to help them succeed, Succeed, what is like? I. I imagine, do the goals differ from person to person or is it basically more of a. Like an overarching, like, hey, like, I want you to realize your potential and I want you to maximize that potential. Like, what, what kind of. When you go to work every day doing this kind of thing, what does it look like for you?
- [13:43]
B
Yeah. You know, every woman that comes and wants my services is looking to build a book, right? So they're looking to make partner, or they are partner, and they're looking to grow their book of business. So that's the overarching goal. I would say the two biggest hindrances that my clients often have and. And this is not just my clients, but is a lack of confidence and time. And a lack of time. Right. So that's a large part of what I'm helping them with. But then the, like, the nitty gritty of me helping them with building a book of business is how do you build a referral network? Right. My philosophy is that 80% of your business should be coming from referrals and 20% should become from active marketing. And that's specific to women because women do not have the time or the capacity to go and market 80% of the time. So for me, the most sustainable way that I can help women build a practice is by building their referral network. And so that's a large part of what we work on. I help them craft a really excellent client journey that's not just like administrative things, but that goes above and beyond. So they create what I call superfans. I help them do, like, what's called a network map. So we're actively working on building and growing their network outside of referrals. We're helping them with personal branding and thought leadership, which is just, in my opinion, essential today. And I know you would probably agree with that, Michael.
- [15:17]
A
Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. You are talking my language here.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah. And, you know, and not many people are thinking about that. And then I think when you show them the opportunities that open up, the power of it and how you really can be seated as an expert, it just changes the way that you practice. So those, I mean, those are quite a few of the things that I'm, that I'm working with clients on. And then it's for junior partners in particular. You know, it's often the, like, sink or swim model. So it's like, okay, you made partner. Good luck figuring out how to lead a team and build a book and bill your hours and office politics. And, you know, there's so much that goes into it. So I really help them figure out firm economics leadership capabilities. There's just a lot that goes into making partner. It's. It's not just, okay, I did my eight, nine, ten years, and now I'm going to be partner. It's a lot more than that. So helping them thrive in partnership is just as important as helping them become partner.
- [16:22]
A
Yeah. In. In when you help your clients succeed and what they are, you know, striving to do. Do you think that. Because obviously, like you were saying before, this system's kind of been built and has been built for a while, and it's very much what you're doing is helping your clients basically go against the system. Right. In a way, like, you know, trying to break out of what has been the norm for, for many, many years. Do you see more, like, realization or do you see more people, like, who already come to you, like, saying, like, yes, like, I, I see the problem here already, and I want to be on this path with you. Like, what would you say? Would you say that there's more of a realization or there's more of a I already know, like, let's get this done kind of thing?
- [17:15]
B
Yeah. The people who come to me are the people who have accepted that no one's going to take them under their wing and teach them perfectly how to do all this stuff. And, and that's not a dig on partners because, you know, on equity partners or in junior partners who might be teaching associates because they weren't taught how to do it, they're not taught how to teach other people to do what they've done. I think you often get the. I think some of the worst advice you can ever get as an associate is to put your head down, do good work, and your time will come. Worst advice.
- [17:49]
A
That sounds terrible.
- [17:51]
B
Well, it's terrible advice because. Okay, let's say you do that, right? Let's just play it out. Let's say you do that. Then it's your time to make partner or time to build a book of business. And no one knows who you are. So you've put your head down for what? Like, when your time comes, no one will know all the work that you've put in, how hard you've worked, how talented you are. You don't want to be the best kept secret. So that was a little bit of a tangent, but to get back to.
- [18:17]
A
Your question, I love it. I love it.
- [18:19]
B
You know, I think women have already accepted, like, oh, this isn't like, no one's going to pick me. And this isn't really working out the way that I'd hoped because I think there's this assumption that your firm is going to teach you everything that you need to know, and that's just not true. And that's not because they don't have good intentions. It's just not the model. And so you really have to go outside of yourself and invest in yourself. And I think it's also the mentality of, well, if you're not willing to invest in yourself, why would I invest in you from the firm perspective? And so there's people who come to me, like, I've gotten the. When people say no to my services, they're like, well, I think the firm is really going to teach me, so I don't need to do this program. And I always say, great, I love that they're doing that. Please let me know if I can be a resource. And then two years later, they come back to me and they're like, okay, no one's taught me. Can you teach me now?
- [19:16]
A
Yeah.
- [19:17]
B
So it's really the, the. Okay, I figured out that I've really got to take this seriously and take some ownership over my career and not just do what the firm is telling me to do. So it's at that point that women really come to me and say, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready to learn.
- [19:36]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Do you have any specific success stories that you can share with the audience? Like, I know people would love to hear, you know, some, some positivity, because obviously what we're talking about is a little. It's a little sad, unfortunately.
- [19:52]
B
But yeah, I mean, I have tons of positive stories every day. I get positive texts or emails from my clients, which is really what keeps me going. I mean, I. I think the biggest gift that I can give to My clients is really, like I said earlier, it's in infusing vision back into their career because I think that the law firm model can really suck that out of you. And so to get excitement again about where you're going and what you're doing and the people that you're meeting, I think especially post pandemic, there's just some. There's a lot of lingering things that the pandemic has done to us. And so I think really infusing a lot of that vision back into people's lives about what they can do and how they can do it. And it might be different now, but it's still just as exciting. And so I love that I get to do that. You know a specific example, I had a junior partner that I've been working with for, gosh, close to a year and a half now, and she came to me and was like, look, I don't really want to build a book of business, but I want some career coaching. And I think I'm actually going to leave my firm. And I was like, that's great. I'm happy to be here, I'm happy to be a resource, but you know that my bread and butter is teaching me women to build a book business. And she went from that to now being this kick ass partner who associates love to having this book of businesses she cares about and working with clients that she loves. I mean, I think that's the disconnect is people really get pushed into these areas of law and working with clients that they're like, I don't, I just don't really have a connection here. So really meaningfully creating connections with clients and the work that they're doing makes all the difference. And now she's getting to pass that down to associates that she's working with. And it's the coolest. I mean, it's exactly why I started my business. It is the coolest thing to see. She is passionate, she is energized. And it's not perfect. There's lots of calls that she comes on and she's like, oh, this is really hard and this is a hard season. And you know, there's only I. This is just hard. And it's acknowledging that I'm never going to push someone one way or another, that they don't want to be pushed because that's not my job as a coach. My job is to hold you accountable and give you options. Right? And so that's the beauty is now she's just in such a good spot and has the vision and has the energy and has clients that she loves and, and being able to, to, to work with a woman who was burnt out and ready to leave, who's now in this really thriving spot is amazing.
- [22:41]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's, I mean you could speak to this better than I can, but I'm sure that is what is going to be the ripple effect for, for years to come is that you have these specific people who they, they might believe that like, oh, like I just, I just can't do it anymore. But then they, they just reignite that passion and they decide, you know what? I can do it. I just need to do it, you know, again, almost basically against, against the system, right? Against like what's been the norm. And that's what's the, that's what's going to be the ripple effect for, for, for years to come. Because then they can teach people and then they can teach people and so on and so forth.
- [23:20]
B
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And it just matters like we deserve to be poured into and I think that we forget that. And finding people who are in your corner that are purely dedicated to your success is one of the best things I think you could ever do for your career. And that's hard to find. You know, it's, it's not easy to find. But putting in the effort to find those people really does make all the difference.
- [23:48]
A
Yeah. So, okay, so you've been doing it for a few years now, right? You said a few years. Okay, so in those few years, what kind of change have you seen, if any, to the, to the industry itself? Have you seen any positive leaps forward? I know it's only been a few years, so like the sample size isn't like crazy big, but.
- [24:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, I have seen the positive difference in my clients lives as far as the industry. I mean, quite frankly, not really. I think the pandemic was the biggest change and that was a really positive change. But now you have all of these, you know, and Michael, I don't know if you guys go in or not, so I'm sorry. But now you have a lot of law firm owners, like we get these alerts all the time, like big law is now requiring, you know, these people to be in five days a week or whatever. And it's like, why? Why? For your own egos or like for your own. For culture, quote unquote. And I have a grip about that.
- [24:52]
A
But yeah, you can't force culture. That's the worst thing that you can try to do. You can't force it.
- [24:57]
B
Yeah. And look, there is so much value in being in person, but I think it has to be intentional. Like being impersonal isn't just like, okay, we all come to our office and shut our doors. Like, that's not why are we here, you know. But you can create really intentional time together. And I think that's the difference that a lot of these leaders are missing out on. But that was a positive change, was the work from home. Otherwise, you know, I think there's lots of really badass women doing really cool initiatives, trying their best to make these leaps. And those are my friends, those are my clients, you know, lots of people in the industry. But I think the next big shakeup that will be positive will be AI and the billable hour model. My, my true hope is that AI will really cause some major change for the bill of Laur model.
- [25:54]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so let's talk about the future. What in your opinion, what does the future look like for, for this, this area?
- [26:05]
B
I think the future looks like less and less people going to big law. I think we've already seen that trend because Gen Z is coming and they're here and I love them and they're not having it, they're just not interested in it. And so big law numbers will continue to decline. And look, there will always be people to fill big law spots. Money is real, it matters, I get it. But you will not keep people there. And I think less and less people are enticed by it. And so I think you're going to see a lot more firms who are doing things differently. Like I have a friend shout out to Gwen Griggs who has created, she had a very successful law firm. She took a year and said, okay, I'm tired of the billable hour model. I'm going to try to do something different. She gave all of her clients the option to either stay with the billable hour model or switch to the new model. And by the end of the year, every single client switched to the new model and has loved it. And so I think you're going to continue. And she's, I mean she's making money like she's very successful. Like there's, this isn't some dinky operation. So I think you're going to see a lot more smaller boutique mid sized firms who choose to do things differently. Really attract talent.
- [27:26]
A
Yeah. So very specifically, how do you see what is the future of woman in law? What's, I would say, what's the ideal Obviously. But then what do you see more realistically?
- [27:40]
B
Yeah, look, ideal is that we stop actively excluding women, and especially women of color, and that we make some serious changes around the way that the law firm model is set up to let more and more succeed, because it is possible. We're just not doing it.
- [28:08]
A
Yeah.
- [28:09]
B
So that would be such a beautiful future for me. The realistic part of it, I think having more and more women just have the courage to do something different, to not fall into the big law trap to do something different if they want to do something different, to build a brand, to have options, I think all of that really matters for women. And if you're willing to take a little bit of a risk, which is what lawyers are told not to do, but I think when taking the risk is where big things happen, then you're going to see your career as a lawyer, I think, roll out in a way that's meaningful, powerful, makes you money, because, again, that matters. I'm not trying to sugarcoat that. Yeah. And allows you to inspire others to do the same.
- [29:11]
A
Yeah. So they need to. To realize that, A, they have options and then B, they're not. They're not alone in this fight.
- [29:19]
B
Absolutely.
- [29:19]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Do you have anything, Anything else you'd like to share?
- [29:25]
B
Anything else I'd like to share? Well, Michael, I have lots to share, if you can't already tell. No, I'll. I'll end with this. Men have been playing careers like a team sport, as they should, and women have not. And it's time for us to treat it like a team sport. And I know, I'm sorry if you don't like sport analogies.
- [29:51]
A
Bring them on. Bring them on.
- [29:53]
B
Yeah. So we need to start treating this as a team sport, and. And I think that trend has. Has continued to start and we'll continue to do so. So treat it like a team sport, be collaborative, and be only competitive with yourself, and you'll be in good shape.
- [30:12]
A
Awesome. Well, Molly, where can. Where can listeners find you?
- [30:17]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me on LinkedIn. Just Molly Huff, Esquire. And Huff is spelled H O U G H. You can also find me on Instagram, same handle. You can visit my. My website, same handle. Mollyhough esquire.com and if you're interested at all in joining one of my programs, the Partnership Track, which is for associates who've been practicing for five plus years, launches this next month in September. And then the Rainmaker mba, which is for junior partners, launches in October. So if you're interested at all. Send me a dm. Love to chat.
- [30:51]
A
Awesome. I will include the links into the podcast description for anyone listening, so you guys can easily click on those links to get to Molly's her sites there. But Molly, I appreciate you being on the podcast. This is a long time coming, I swear, because we've been connected for a while. I'm glad that it happened.
- [31:09]
B
Yeah, me too. Thanks for the invite, Michael.
- [31:11]
A
Absolutely. All right, everyone. Listening. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Have a great day.