Escalation, Episode Six: Nothing Else Matters

Summary

The Lawfare Podcast: Escalation, Episode Six - "Nothing Else Matters"

Release Date: June 10, 2025

---

Introduction

In Episode Six of the "Escalation" series titled "Nothing Else Matters," hosts Tyler McBrien and Benjamin Wittes delve deep into the intricate and tumultuous relationship between the United States and Ukraine. Tracing the history from Ukraine's independence to the present day, this episode highlights pivotal moments that have shaped the bilateral ties, particularly focusing on political maneuvers, corruption scandals, and cultural diplomacy.

---

Recap of Previous Episodes

Previously, "Escalation" has explored various facets of US-Ukraine relations, setting the stage for the current episode by examining events that have led to the present-day complexities. The series has meticulously covered the evolution of policies, key political figures, and significant incidents that have influenced the dynamic between the two nations.

---

Historical Background: US-Ukraine Relations

The episode begins by contextualizing the relationship between the US and Ukraine, emphasizing Ukraine's struggle for independence and the subsequent geopolitical challenges it faced. A significant focus is placed on the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, which led to the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych and Russia's annexation of Crimea and Donbas. This period marked a decisive break from Russian influence and ignited a series of reforms in Ukraine, strongly supported by the United States.

Notable Quote:

Benjamin Wittes (10:17): “You have to fight the cancer of corruption that is, that is endemic in your system right now.”

---

The 2016 Political Scandal: Hunter Biden and Burisma

A central theme of the episode is the 2016 political scandal involving Hunter Biden's position on the board of Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian gas company under investigation by Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin. This connection created a perceived conflict of interest, especially as Vice President Joe Biden was actively pushing for Shokin's removal to combat corruption in Ukraine.

Notable Quote:

Benjamin Wittes (12:21): “So Hunter Biden joined the board of Burisma in 2014.”

The episode meticulously outlines how the pressure from the US led to Shokin's ousting in 2016, a move that was lauded across bipartisan lines at the time but later became a focal point in the ensuing political turmoil.

---

Impeachment and Its Aftermath

The narrative then shifts to the events leading up to the impeachment of President Donald Trump in 2019. The pivotal moment was Trump's phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, where Trump allegedly pressured Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son. This act was perceived as an attempt to leverage military aid for personal political gain, leading to widespread controversy and the House of Representatives initiating impeachment proceedings.

Notable Quote:

Benjamin Wittes (43:56): “Do you believe it is okay for the President of the United States to pressure a foreign country into helping him or her win an election? It is unwarranted. It is unwelcome. It is. It is bad for the nation to have outside.”

Despite the impeachment, the Senate did not convict Trump, allowing him to remain in office. However, the scandal severely strained US-Ukraine relations and sowed seeds of distrust that continue to influence contemporary politics.

---

The Role of Ukrainian Cultural Forces

Amidst the political chaos, Ukrainian Cultural Forces have been instrumental in maintaining and fostering support for Ukraine within the United States. Comprising musicians, artists, and activists like Taras Stoler, Nikolai Sierga, and Sasha Bull, these cultural emissaries aim to bridge the gap between Ukrainian and American communities through performances and cultural exchanges.

Notable Quote:

Benjamin Wittes (16:20): “It's like psychological stuff at first. It's moral psychological stuff. So we're working with the troops on the front line and mostly our presenters, our artists, they are military, they are soldiers with combat experience.”

The episode highlights their efforts to navigate the increasingly polarized political landscape, especially with the 2024 US presidential election looming, which threatens to dilute bipartisan support for Ukraine.

---

Impact on the 2024 US Presidential Election

With the 2024 elections approaching, US political factions are becoming increasingly divided over Ukraine support. This division is exacerbated by lingering suspicions stemming from the 2019 scandal, making it challenging for Ukrainian Cultural Forces to garner widespread support. The episode portrays the Cultural Forces' frustrations as their efforts receive lukewarm responses compared to previous years.

Notable Quote:

Benjamin Wittes (33:55): “Wu Support for Ukraine became tailored to whatever election headlines were being shot out of a firehose.”

This political schism not only impacts the flow of aid but also affects Ukraine's strategic positioning against Russian aggression, as delineated by President Trump's skepticism towards Zelenskyy.

---

Current State of Affairs: Fall 2024

In the fall of 2024, the episode paints a grim picture of the US-Ukraine relationship. The cultural missions are grappling with reduced support and increased political skepticism, making their mission more arduous than ever. Concurrently, Russia observes the weakening US support with concern, potentially emboldening its strategic maneuvers in the region.

The Cultural Forces' latest performances in Washington D.C. signify their persistent yet challenging efforts to maintain solidarity and support for Ukraine amidst dwindling political consensus.

Notable Quote:

Benjamin Wittes (52:45): “It's a hectic day on the Hill. In addition to all the normal election chaos, Congress voted to increase security for presidential candidates.”

---

Conclusion and Future Outlook

"Nothing Else Matters" underscores the complexities of international relations intertwined with domestic politics. The episode concludes by setting the stage for the series finale, promising to unveil the culmination of over a decade of conflict, political intrigue, and the unwavering spirit of Ukrainian resilience.

---

Notable Quotes Recap

• Benjamin Wittes (10:17): “You have to fight the cancer of corruption that is, that is endemic in your system right now.”

• Benjamin Wittes (12:21): “So Hunter Biden joined the board of Burisma in 2014.”

• Benjamin Wittes (43:56): “Do you believe it is okay for the President of the United States to pressure a foreign country into helping him or her win an election? It is unwarranted. It is unwelcome. It is. It is bad for the nation to have outside.”

• Benjamin Wittes (16:20): “It's like psychological stuff at first. It's moral psychological stuff. So we're working with the troops on the front line and mostly our presenters, our artists, they are military, they are soldiers with combat experience.”

• Benjamin Wittes (33:55): “Wu Support for Ukraine became tailored to whatever election headlines were being shot out of a firehose.”

• Benjamin Wittes (52:45): “It's a hectic day on the Hill. In addition to all the normal election chaos, Congress voted to increase security for presidential candidates.”

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from "Escalation, Episode Six: Nothing Else Matters," offering listeners a detailed understanding of the intricate US-Ukraine relationship and its broader geopolitical implications.

Transcript

[Benjamin Wittes]

The following podcast contains advertising to access an ad free version of the Lawfare Podcast. Become a material supporter of [e-mail] lawfare that's patreon.com lawfair also check out Lawfare's other podcast offerings, Rational Security Chatter, Lawfare, no Bull, and the Aftermath.

[Tyler McBrien]

It's the Lawfare podcast. I'm Tyler McBrien, managing editor of Lawfare. This afternoon we're continuing to bring you a little something extra on top of our daily Lawfare podcast episodes. Today, it's episode six of Escalation, our latest narrative series that I co hosted with Lawfare's Ukraine fellow, Anastasia Lapatna. Throughout the show, Nastya and I trace the history of US Ukrainian relationships from the time of Ukrainian independence through the present. You can listen to Escalation in its entirety, as well as our other narrative series on our Lawfare Presents channel. Wherever you get your podcasts, episode six picks up the thread in 2019, when the relationship between the US and Ukraine faces one of its biggest tests during a phone call between Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelenskyy. We then take listeners into the halls of Congress to follow the Ukrainian cultural forces as they struggle to generate support for the war on the eve of the 2024 presidential election, in part due to the fallout of that infamous phone call. This is Escalation, Episode six, Nothing Else Matters.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Escalation is presented by Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal. Deleteme is trusted by 20% of the Fortune 500 and by federal, state and county courts across the United States. For more information on Deleteme and its services for individuals and businesses, go to joindeleteme.com escalation.

[Tyler McBrien]

Previously on Escalation.

[Benjamin Wittes]

We want to reset our relationship.

[Tyler McBrien]

Let's do it together.

[Benjamin Wittes]

So we will do it together. Okay? Ukraine lost control over a number of agencies, basically decomposing the Ukrainian ability to resist.

[Tyler McBrien]

You know, when his thugs went out there and beat up.

[Benjamin Wittes]

He has the blood of our children, the blood of students, the blood of youth on his hand. Did you think it would be over quickly?

[Tyler McBrien]

I was packing for two weeks. Now it's ten and a half years.

[Benjamin Wittes]

So do you know who the meeting is with today?

[Tyler McBrien]

Who you guys are meeting with?

[Benjamin Wittes]

I don't know. I don't know at all. I think it's somebody from Congress or Senate. So.

[Tyler McBrien]

That'S the voice of Tadas Stoler who's talking to our executive producer Max. Tadas was a soldier in the Ukrainian army. But on this cloudy day in September 2024, Tadas is in Washington D.C. walking into the Hart Office Building that's home to a whole bunch of US Senate offices. Taras huffs and puffs while he carries a huge black case through security. Following just behind him is a one legged opera singer who keeps up on a prosthetic and a violin player who wears an eyepatch over the one she lost. Taras and the rest of the group are all part of something called the Ukrainian Cultural Forces.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Sometimes we are invited, sometimes not. But we say that we are active soldiers, we are from Ukraine, so we come and we thank American people for support and we want to show our culture and our stories and sometimes I think it's every time it works.

[Tyler McBrien]

The Cultural Forces travel the world to host concerts and speaking engagements. Today they're in Washington D.C. as emissaries of sorts from the Ukrainian army. They're here to tell the rest of the world about Ukraine, to garner support for the war, tell stories about Ukrainian art and culture, and to, in their words, thank the American people for their support. The group is led by Valeri, their press person. Valeri is well over 6ft tall with a shiny bald head over a long ZZ top like beard. There's a lot of neckties and formal attire at the Capitol, but Valeri and the rest of his group are decked out in head to toe green tactical clothes trying to find their way around the Senate office building.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Is this your first time here? Actually yeah. Inside yeah, you see a blessing in disguise. Otherwise you would have never come here. But thanks to us, all it took.

[Tyler McBrien]

Was Ukrainians coming to visit to see my own capital. Valeri leads us down the hall and we eventually find what we're looking for. The office of Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona. Staffer greets us and says that Senator Kelly is busy and can't meet, but she'll pass their message along here. Per the request of the office, we stop recording. The Cultural Forces say that they'll be traveling across the state soon and one of their stops is in Phoenix, Senator Kelly's home district. They're here to ask him for any form of support, a place to reform or maybe some constituents to talk to. Then Tadas opens up that black case, reaches in and pulls out a bandura, a large wooden instrument. The bandura is hugely important to Ukrainian traditions and history. It kind of looks like what would happen if a guitar and a harp had a baby. It has more than 50 strings wound over a huge bass that sits on Taras lap. Taras starts to pluck the strings this is actually an American song that you may recognize. Nothing Else Matters by Metallica. Taras says the song is huge in Ukraine, especially with the soldiers.

[Benjamin Wittes]

For us, just, it's not ordinary song. I play a lot of composition from America, but Metallica is something special for us, for, for people. They, they said after I play, they are very, like, proud of our instrument. Everybody knows this composition, but when they listen it from Bandura, it's like it's a reason to be proud of our power or our, I don't know, cultural footprint.

[Tyler McBrien]

Our cultural footprint. Valeri says Nothing Else Matters. Taras performance in this Senate office is the first of what the cultural forces hope will be many more in Washington. But the US Presidential election is just weeks away. Ukraine is one of the things the candidates are sparring over, which means lawmakers are distracted and the Capitol is tense. With two weeks to go until election Day, new polling from the Washington Post.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Shows a tight race in every battleground state.

[Tyler McBrien]

Ukraine is one of the countries that.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Is most closely monitoring the race, as.

[Tyler McBrien]

The outcome could impact continued help from the US and its Western allies. These halls of congress are full of divisive opinions on Ukraine, of strange narratives and cynical actors that the cultural forces will have to navigate. The seeds of this minefield were planted years ago in the summer of 2019, when an odd sequence of events culminates in one phone call. A phone call that's forever changed the relationship between the United States and Ukraine.

[Benjamin Wittes]

It doesn't matter what I discuss. President Trump says he did nothing wrong during a phone call with the President of Ukraine. My worst fear of our Ukraine policy could play out. Was playing out.

[Tyler McBrien]

Then we'll return to the halls of Congress, literally, with Ukraine's cultural forces, where you'll learn how that phone call has made the cultural forces job much harder. From lawfare and goat rodeo, this is Escalation, a podcast about the United States and Ukraine. I'm Tyler McBrien.

[Benjamin Wittes]

And I'm Anastasia Lopatyna.

[Tyler McBrien]

This is episode six, Nothing Else Matters. It's now late April of 2014. It's been about a month since Ukrainians overthrew autocrat Viktor Yanukovych and Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas. Fighting is ongoing in eastern Ukraine, while in Kyiv, the Ukrainian government welcomes an important guest, then US Vice President Joe Biden.

[Benjamin Wittes]

We can help in stabilizing and strengthening Ukraine's economy by helping you withstand the unfair economic pressure being thrust upon you.

[Tyler McBrien]

The revolution of 2014 was a pivotal moment for Ukraine. It cemented Ukraine's break from Russia and led to positive changes in government and civil society. In the immediate aftermath, there's a lot of hope that things will get better. So while visiting Kyiv, Biden tells Ukrainians to keep their eye on the ball.

[Benjamin Wittes]

You have to fight the cancer of corruption that is, that is endemic in your system right now.

[Tyler McBrien]

In the next few years, the US helps Ukraine develop reforms to fight corruption. With American guidance and money, the country creates several new anti corruption institutions. But soon these efforts run into a roadblock. A man named Viktor Shokin. Shokin is Ukraine's prosecutor general, and he is really bad at his job. He stalls cases and gets accused of corruption himself. Ukrainians are the first to call for Shokin's ouster. People who came to this rally hope this will be a final push on the parliament and the president to finally dismiss the general prosecutor. We will not allow him to maintain the Soviet system of prosecution which intimidates people. As if all that weren't complicated enough, there's one more important detail. In 2016, the US government is putting pressure on Shokin's office. The Americans want Shokin to investigate alleged corruption at several companies owned by Ukrainian oligarchs. One of those companies is called Burisma Holdings. And Burisma just hired a pretty big name.

[Benjamin Wittes]

So Hunter Biden joined the board of Burisma in 2014.

[Tyler McBrien]

Aaron Blake is a reporter and columnist at the Washington Post. And you heard him right. The company that the US government wants Shokin to investigate has the vice president's son, Hunter Biden, on its board.

[Benjamin Wittes]

And it created kind of a problem because, you know, on the one hand.

[Tyler McBrien]

You have Vice President Biden spearheading this.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Effort to root out corruption in Ukraine. On the other hand, you have Hunter Biden on the board of a Ukrainian gas company that had been under investigation, whose leader was viewed as potentially corrupt.

[Tyler McBrien]

Eventually, the allegations against Shokin become a concern for the White House, Congress, and Ukraine's European partners.

[Benjamin Wittes]

This was not something that was controversial at the time. This was something that even many prominent Republicans had pushed for. There were prominent Republicans who were writing op eds questioning how good Victor Shokin was doing in rooting out corruption. And he was eventually ousted in March of 2016, a little bit more than a year after he had actually taken the job.

[Tyler McBrien]

With Shokin gone, Washington and Kyiv are both pleased. An American aid to Ukraine continues.

[Benjamin Wittes]

It wasn't until years later that anybody really raised a concern about the circumstances, you know, underneath what happened here. And that's because this became enmeshed in American politics.

[Tyler McBrien]

This whole episode should have been forgotten as a footnote in U S Ukraine relations. But these underlying facts will get caught up in the churn of American politics during the upcoming presidential election in 2016. We're back with Ukraine's cultural forces in the fall of 2024. You're hearing them perform once again, this time at a cultural center in Washington D.C. and that voice you hear belongs to Mikolaj Sierga.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I'm Captain, Captain Mykolai Sierga. I'm founder, the head of cultural forces.

[Tyler McBrien]

So could you start with, I guess.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Tell me about why the cultural forces are in the United States and because of elections.

[Tyler McBrien]

Because of the elections. Nikolai says he's joking, but only slightly.

[Benjamin Wittes]

And we understand that right now we are very dependent from United States and moods in United States about Ukraine. But we understand that right now it's elections and different camps trying to manipulate around Ukraine.

[Tyler McBrien]

Nikolai is a Ukrainian musician, comedian and activist. Growing up, he split time between Ukraine and Russia where he performed music and comedy in small clubs. His big break came in the late 2000s when Nikolai got booked on some famous shows in Russia and Ukraine. His career took off from there. Mikolai was a touring musician and TV personality when Russia launched its full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Then he joined the army in the trenches. Mikolaj would sing songs for the other soldiers who desperately needed the reprieve. Mikolaj's performances got so popular that he started getting invited to sing for other units. That's how Ukraine's cultural forces were born.

[Benjamin Wittes]

It's like psychological stuff at first. It's moral psychological stuff. So we're working with the troops on the front line and mostly our presenters, our artists, they are military, they are soldiers with combat experience.

[Tyler McBrien]

Mykolai and the rest of the cultural forces have occasionally toured the US for the past three years. Each trip is more important than the last because by the fall of 2024, US support for Ukraine is winding down. Mikolai watches the debates over what role America has in the war. And he hears a lot of misinformation and misconceptions about Ukraine. Ultimately, they're here to show Americans what they have in common.

[Benjamin Wittes]

So we understood that a long time of delaying EID began to ruin the trust, trust between Ukrainian people to American people.

[Tyler McBrien]

Mikolaj says the one topic they don't talk a lot about is the war. They've all had combat experience. They've all lost friends, Some of them have lost limbs. So their only message about it is a simple one.

[Benjamin Wittes]

And you know what is interesting about the war? That when you don't want to understand the war from the distance, it come closer and closer.

[Tyler McBrien]

We'll be back after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Hey, Escalation listeners. Benjamin Whittis here. We wanted to pause here to thank our sponsor, Delete Me. For the past decade, Delete Me has been a trailblazer in erasing personal data for individuals and businesses that pose a threat to their privacy. Throughout this series, we've been speaking with the leading experts within Deleteme about how they shield both individuals and companies from privacy and security risks. One of these experts is John Gilmore, Delete Me's head of research. John, who exactly are these data brokers hunting down our personal details and what are they really after and how do they do it?

[Tyler McBrien]

Data brokers have been around for forever.

[Benjamin Wittes]

The simplest definition of a data broker.

[Tyler McBrien]

Is a company whose primary business is.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Collecting, packaging and reselling information about people that they don't do business directly with with third parties.

[Tyler McBrien]

Almost every company that operates an online business is in some way part of.

[Benjamin Wittes]

A data broker landscape.

[Tyler McBrien]

Everyone is buying and trading information, and data is the oil that the digital economy runs on.

[Benjamin Wittes]

What sort of new and novel techniques are data brokers and other bad actors using to get my data?

[Tyler McBrien]

The big answer to your question is the smartphone is the 800 pound gorilla.

[Benjamin Wittes]

In the room of how information collection has been occurring.

[Tyler McBrien]

People share information all the time on the open web.

[Benjamin Wittes]

It's become much more effortless to scrape.

[Tyler McBrien]

More data out of more kinds of sources.

[Benjamin Wittes]

The most common sources of information are public records. The difference that's changed is that public records are now accessible and searchable in ways that were very difficult before. For more information on Deleteme and its services, go to joindeleteme.com escalation and use the code ESCALATION to get 20% off a personal plan. And you can contact them there about a special offer to protect your business, too. That's joindeleteme.com escalation code escalation. Now back to the show.

[Tyler McBrien]

We're back.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Good evening and I welcome you to the third and final of the 2016 presidential debates between Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Donald J. Trump. This debate is sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates.

[Tyler McBrien]

It's the fall of 2016 when Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump face off for the US Presidency.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Finally, will Donald Trump make it clear that he will not have the help of Putin in this election? That he rejects Russian espionage against Americans, which he actually encouraged in the past? Those are the questions we need answered. We've never had anything like this happen in any of our elections before. I don't know Putin, he said nice things about me. If we got along well, that would be good. If Russia and the United States got along well and went after isis, that would be good. He has no respect for her. He has no respect for our president. And I'll tell you what, we're in very serious trouble.

[Tyler McBrien]

Public reporting reveals several connections between the Kremlin and Donald Trump's campaign. There's decades of business ties between Trump and Russian oligarchs. And whenever Trump speaks about Russia during the campaign, it's with admiration.

[Benjamin Wittes]

After Vladimir Putin praised Donald Trump as undoubtedly a bright and talented person. When people call you brilliant, it's always good, especially when the person heads up Russia.

[Tyler McBrien]

Then Russia takes active steps to help Trump. Russian backed groups hack into the Democratic National Committee, steal their emails and dump them on WikiLeaks. Later on, the US intelligence community will say that the Russian government wants to help Trump win the presidency, which he does in November.

[Benjamin Wittes]

And by the way, folks, just in case you're like, curious, no, Russia did not help me. Okay? Russia. I call it the Russian hoax.

[Tyler McBrien]

Trump says the Russians had nothing to do with the election. Instead, he floats the idea that the Ukrainians were somehow to blame. This is a bizarre theory with roots in Russian media that takes hold amongst Trump and his inner circle. They become convinced that the hacked DNC email server somehow ended up in the hands of the Ukrainians.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Where is the server? So the server, they say, is from Ukraine. People came to me, they said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia.

[Tyler McBrien]

If this all sounds confusing, that's because it is. The whole theory has been investigated by the FBI and many, many credible journalists, and there is no truth to any of it. But Trump gets fixated on it and the story picks up steam in 2018 when former Vice President Joe Biden is asked about Ukraine at a speaking engagement in Washington. There, Biden describes getting that prosecutor Viktor Shokin fired. He even brags about how the White House threatened to withhold a billion dollar loan to Ukraine if they didn't remove him.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I look, I said I'm leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor's not fired, you're not getting the money. Oh, son of a bitch got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid.

[Tyler McBrien]

To be clear, the Vice President's son, Hunter Biden was working for a company that his father wanted investigated. So Joe and Hunter were on opposite sides of this. But Even the appearance of a conflict of interest begins to draw suspicion. Trump's paranoia over Ukraine, Biden and Burisma morph into one mangled, convoluted conspiracy. Ukraine is corrupt and set against him. Joe Biden is personally benefiting from Ukrainian corruption. So his associates go to Ukraine to find dirt on Biden. Keep in mind that the Ukrainians still want American weapons to defend themselves.

[Benjamin Wittes]

How long have they lasted a fight with Russia? Not very long, I don't think very long without us. Not very long without us.

[Tyler McBrien]

That's President Trump asking how long the Ukrainians will last in their fight with Russia. Trump is speaking in a secretly recorded meeting in the spring of 2018. He's talking to two people, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, who are attending a private dinner for donors.

[Benjamin Wittes]

It was a great, great job. How's Ukraine feeling about it? All right. They're actually very much appreciate everything you're doing. Do they feel they're going to be okay? They feel they're going to be okay if you support them, yeah. If you don't love Russia.

[Tyler McBrien]

Parnas and Fruman are shady Soviet born American businessmen and Republican donors. They eventually get connected with Trump's personal lawyer, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Giuliani is leading Trump's effort to dig up dirt on the Biden family in Ukraine and Parnas and Fruman are helping him do it. They introduce Giuliani to Ukrainian officials and set up meetings while also pursuing their own business interests. Enter another character, Marie Yovanovitch, a respected career US Diplomat and the US Ambassador to Ukraine. Parnas and Fruman decide that Ambassador Yovanovitch is an obstacle to their business dealings. So at that private dinner, Parnas tells Trump that there's a problem if you take over.

[Benjamin Wittes]

The biggest problem there, I think where we need to start is we gotta get rid of the ambassador. She's still left over from the Clinton administration. Were the ambassador where? Ukraine. Yeah. And she's basically walking around telling everybody, wait, he's going to get impeached, just wait. I mean it's incredible. She'll be gone tomorrow.

[Tyler McBrien]

I don't remember. So one of the things that will.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Be get rid of her, Hooray, get her out tomorrow, I don't care, get her out tomorrow, take her out.

[Tyler McBrien]

Okay, excellent, do it. And that's all it takes to get the ball rolling. Trump becomes convinced that Yovanovitch is working against him. And over time, Giuliani accuses her of slow walking the investigations into the Bidens that the White House wants they begin a smear campaign that culminates in Ambassador Yovanovitch getting fired in April of 2019. The very next day, Joe Biden announces he's running for president. He starts to get questions about his son Hunter and his previous work in Ukraine.

[Benjamin Wittes]

It's not a conflict of interest. There's been no indication of any conflict of interest from Ukraine or anywhere else, period. I'm not going to respond to that. Let's focus on the problem. Focus on this man, what he's doing, that no president has ever done. No president.

[Tyler McBrien]

As everyone prepares for the upcoming election in 2020, the Russians will try to exploit this situation and drive a wedge between Kyiv and Washington. We're back with a Cultural Forces performance in the fall of 2024, and you're hearing the musical talents of someone named Sasha Bull. He's a Ukrainian folk and country singer and a performing artist with the Cultural Forces. After the Russian full scale invasion, Sasha enlisted with the Ukrainian army in 2022. He was an infantry commander for a year before joining the Cultural Forces. My family was tortured, murdered and robbed by Russians since the very beginning of 20th century, Sasha says his family has been fighting Russian imperialism ever since. Here in the US the rest of the Cultural Forces describe everything that the United States and Ukraine have in common, but Sasha is a living, breathing embodiment of them.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I also know a lot of American folk and country songs, even religious hymns.

[Tyler McBrien]

Like Glory, Glory Hallelujah, Amazing Grace, etc.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I saw the light, man. I have Hank Williams tattoo on my arm, and this is one of my favorite musicians.

[Tyler McBrien]

Like, really? Sasha pulls back his sleeve to reveal a huge Hank Williams tattoo that covers his entire forearm.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Oh, wow, that's big too. Yeah. What does it say?

[Tyler McBrien]

Does it say his name down there? I want some blues. Sasha is hard to describe if you've never seen him. He has big bright eyes set over a dark, carefully trimmed mustache. He's got this infectious smile that sits under a neatly shaped hairdo. And if a single strand of hair falls out of place, don't worry. Sasha keeps a foldable comb in his pocket that he wields like a switchblade. Sasha was raised by his grandfather, who showed him American music. He's been obsessed ever since. And that's how he brought this music into my life and this lifestyle. Also the jeans, clothes, and the state of mind. So when I started to get older and older, I figured out that I have like two worlds. One, the real world I have around me, it's post Soviet world, you know, with the ugly Soviet world music. And at the same time, I have something beautiful that my grandpa showed me, something sacred, something even dangerous. The Cultural Forces tour has started off well in Washington, D.C. they've had a few packed performances like this, some good meetings on the hill and some fun private shows around town, but the response is a bit, bit more muted than in years past. Right after the full scale invasion in 2022, the cultural forces were invited to play all over the country. They performed everywhere, from big concert halls to small municipal buildings. They also did tons of press on countless national and local news programs. But between performances, Valeri tells us that this time around, things are different. So far, we're the only reporters who have agreed to interview them and they've had to scrape together some performances on the fly. Valeri has one theory as to why.

[Benjamin Wittes]

You can feel that the atmospherics of this place is getting more and more tense. And that's precisely for the election.

[Tyler McBrien]

We'll be back after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Support for Escalation comes from Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal. We're back with John Gilmour, DeleteMe's head of research. John, compared to other data removal services, what sets Delete me apart?

[Tyler McBrien]

If you've used a couple of these services, the first thing I would draw.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Attention to is how comprehensive is their data sheet collection.

[Tyler McBrien]

How many pieces of information are they.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Using to try to find you, not.

[Tyler McBrien]

Someone with the same last name as you, not someone who lives in the same state as you, but you. So accuracy in discovery and effectiveness of.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Removal all goes back to, you've got.

[Tyler McBrien]

To build a detailed profile of that individual. And so that's what we do differently than others.

[Benjamin Wittes]

We do things the hard way because.

[Tyler McBrien]

It, it's what guarantees results.

[Benjamin Wittes]

To sum up, I would say we comprehensive data collection, guaranteeing that what we.

[Tyler McBrien]

Find is an accurate match. It's our use of automation plus human beings and it's our partnership with a.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Lot of very large enterprise clients. For more information on Deleteme and its services, go to JoinDeleteMe.com and use the code ESCALATION to get 20% off a personal plan. And you can contact them there about a special offer to protect your business too. That's joindeleteme.com escalation code escalation. Now back to the show.

[Tyler McBrien]

We're back. For all of the strange, tense moments between the United States and Ukraine. Generally speaking, there was bipartisan support in Congress. Republicans and Democrats alike voted for aid packages, attended inaugurations and crafted policy on Ukraine over the years. But cracks were already starting to form in that consensus by the summer of 2019. By that June, Giuliani and Trump have forced out the American ambassador to Ukraine. Then Secretary of State Mike Pompeo calls Bill Taylor. Taylor is a former ambassador to Ukraine, and Pompeo asks him to come back to Kyiv.

[Benjamin Wittes]

He convinced me that President Trump's view of Ukraine notwithstanding, Secretary Pompeo said that policy of strong support for Ukraine would continue.

[Tyler McBrien]

Taylor accepts the offer. Soon after Ukraine finishes its own high stakes presidential election. There, a popular comedian and television star named Volodymyr Zelenskyy has just won in a landslide.

[Benjamin Wittes]

My sense was that he was genuinely committed to both ending the war and defeating corruption. Now, both were, you know, idealistic, ambitious, even naive. But Netelet genuinely held and took some steps in both directions.

[Tyler McBrien]

Ambassador Taylor says that a lot of officials in the Trump White House are optimistic about Ukraine and its new president, but Trump isn't sold on Zelenskyy.

[Benjamin Wittes]

President Trump eventually said, you know, I'm not convinced, but go talk to Rudy.

[Tyler McBrien]

Rudy Giuliani is looking for ways to incriminate Joe Biden. So when Zelenskyy is elected, Giuliani gets on the phone with one of the new president's advisors. Giuliani wants the Ukrainian government to announce investigations into Hunter Biden and the alleged Ukrainian ties to the 2016 US presidential election. This call also gets recorded and leaked.

[Benjamin Wittes]

So having said all that, I wanted to meet with the President elect, really, just to say one thing to him. Just let these investigations go forward, you know, get someone to investigate this.

[Tyler McBrien]

Giuliani claims that Viktor Shokin's firing was orchestrated by Joe Biden to cover up for his son Hunter's crimes. And he claims the Democrats worked with the Ukrainians in 2016. So he turns up the pressure on Zelenskyy to find him some dirt to deliver to his boss.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Somebody in Ukraine's got to take that seriously.

[Tyler McBrien]

Bill Taylor sees Giuliani's fingerprints all over the White House's Ukraine policy. But Giuliani is keeping the full extent of his involvement under wraps. So when Taylor logs into a meeting led by the National Security Council that July, he's stunned at what he hears.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Next on the screen from a person who was not on the screen but was in the the room. She said, I've been instructed from the Chief of Staff of the White House to put on pause the flow of military assistance to Ukraine.

[Tyler McBrien]

A pause on military assistance to Ukraine. Not only does this put the Ukrainians in immediate danger, but it's a total reversal from the White House's policy. So Taylor thinks this has to be some sort of mistake.

[Benjamin Wittes]

This was out of the blue. Of course we're going to support the Ukrainians. They're fighting the bloody Russians. We're going to stop this, we're going to pause this, we're going to halt these deliveries. So the NSC at ever higher levels tried to figure out what was going on.

[Tyler McBrien]

And here is where all these weird threads start to come together. There's the half baked theories about Ukraine and the Bidens, theories that are being spread by an American president who admires Vladimir Putin. Then there's Trump's campaign, which is staffed by people like Rudy Giuliani, who's been sending his cronies to Ukraine to dig up dirt. All of this to prepare for another presidential election just around the corner. And finally, there's people in the administration like Bill Taylor, who don't know the full scope. So when Taylor helps to arrange a phone call between Trump and Zelensky, he knows something is going to go wrong.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Some of the preparations for that phone call did send up some warning signals to me that this was not quite right. You know, there was something funny going on. They were planning to ask the President to do some things which they were very careful not to say on. On a phone call.

[Tyler McBrien]

We'll be back after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Thanks again to Deleteme for their support of escalation. Delete Me helps individuals, businesses and government organizations with protecting their personal information from bad actors. I'm here with Deleteme's Senior Director of Operations, Ali McLachlan, to learn more about how Delete Me works with enterprise clients and business owners. Ali, can you tell me a story of an example of a bigger client like that and the difference that Delete Me made for them? Well, there are, there are lots of them. And the ones that are most striking.

[Tyler McBrien]

To me are when unexpected threats emerge.

[Benjamin Wittes]

And Deleteme acts quickly to mitigate them. An executive at one of our biggest clients became a publicly exposed person, which threatened their family's safety.

[Tyler McBrien]

My team provided that real time assistance.

[Benjamin Wittes]

To ensure the PII of that person was removed from a variety of data sources. This ensured their home address was not exposed to bad actors who were looking.

[Tyler McBrien]

For it on the Internet.

[Benjamin Wittes]

For more information on Deleteme and its services, go to joindeleteme.com escalation and use the code ESCALATION to get 20% off a personal plan. And you can contact them there about a special offer to protect your business, too. That's joindeleteme.com escalation code escalation. Now back to the show.

[Tyler McBrien]

We're back. On July 25, 2019, Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelenskyy get on the phone. They start by congratulating each other for their electoral wins, make some small talk and get down to business. First, President Zelenskyy brings up Javelins. The Javelin is a shoulder mounted rocket launcher and a highly effective anti tank weapon. Ukraine wants to buy a bunch of them from the U.S. trump has already reversed an Obama era policy and sold a small number of Javelins to bolster Ukraine's defenses. But Ukraine wants more. When Zelenskyy makes this request, Trump pivots. We had a voice actor read portions of the transcript of the call that the White House released.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I would like you to do us a favor, though, because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine. They say. Crowdstrike. I guess you have one of your wealthy people, the server. They say Ukraine has it.

[Tyler McBrien]

That's the convoluted conspiracy theory about the DNC server that Trump believes is hidden in Ukraine. Then Joe Biden's name comes up.

[Benjamin Wittes]

The other thing, there's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that. So whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you could look into it. It sounds horrible to me.

[Tyler McBrien]

President Zelenskyy is in a tough spot. He's eager to have a relationship with Trump's White House and he needs those javelins. But he senses that Trump is fake fishing for something, so he punts. Zelenskyy says that his people will meet with Rudy Giuliani, Trump's personal attorney, and Bill Barr, the Attorney General, to discuss the details.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I would like to have the Attorney general call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it.

[Tyler McBrien]

With that, Trump has implied that there's a condition. Further US Military aid, which Trump has already suspended, can only resume once Zelenskyy delivers, when he initiates the investigations Trump is asking for. Zelenskyy desperately wants a meeting with President Trump to help him negotiate with Putin. But Trump won't commit until Ukraine does what he wants. The President signs off with some pleasantries and hangs up. The whole call lasts about 30 minutes. Almost immediately, Trump's call sets off alarms across the federal government, unbeknownst to anyone, a CIA whistleblower files a secret report with a stark accusation that Trump is using the powers of his presidential office to pressure the Ukrainians to investigate his political opponent, Joe Biden. Once the story goes public in September, aid to Ukraine quickly resumes. The President defends his phone call with Zelenskyy, but the cat is out of the bag.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Do you believe it is okay for the President of the United States to pressure a foreign country into helping him or her win an election? It is unwarranted. It is unwelcome. It is. It is bad for the nation to have outside.

[Tyler McBrien]

In the fall of 2019, the Democratic led House of Representatives conducts a major investigation. They say Trump tried to extort the Ukrainians. The resulting impeachment inquiry introduces the world to people like Alexander Vindman.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Frankly, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

[Tyler McBrien]

It introduces the world to people like Fiona Hill.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I refuse to be part of an.

[Tyler McBrien]

Effort to legitimize an alternate narrative that.

[Benjamin Wittes]

The Ukrainian government is a U.S. adversary.

[Tyler McBrien]

And Bill Taylor.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign.

[Tyler McBrien]

The House goes on to impeach Trump, though the Senate does not vote to remove him from office. So Trump has some short term headaches, but he largely avoids any consequences. Ukraine, though, is a different story because several things emerge in the aftermath of the phone call and resulting scandal. For one, Trump and a lot of Republicans who back him become suspicious of Ukraine and of Zelensky.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I think Zelenskyy is the greatest salesman in history. Every time he comes into the country, he walks away with $60 billion. Billion. He wants them to win this election so badly.

[Tyler McBrien]

As a result, Congress becomes more divided on Ukraine than ever. Even Republicans who supported Ukraine in the past fall in line with Trump's attacks. Strange rumors about Ukraine and Zelensky start to fly around the US Capitol.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Who do you believe was responsible for hacking the DNC and Clinton campaign computers? Their emails? Was it Russia or Ukraine? I don't know. Nor do you, nor do any of us. That Russia tried to interfere in 2016. Also Ukrainians themselves tried to interfere. Also.

[Tyler McBrien]

Vladimir Putin. Putin watches all of this play out. He sees Ukraine get caught up in American partisan fights. He sees Zelensky weakened by this spat with Ukraine's main backer. He assumes that the US Will be too politically divided to help Ukraine defend itself. We'll be back after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Support for escalation comes from Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal. We're back with Rob Chevelle, co founder and CEO of Delete Me, to talk about how his team leads the way when it comes to data privacy. Rob Delete Me is doing great work in protecting people's privacy now, but cybersecurity concerns are only going to grow in the future. So where's all this heading? How is Delete Me going to play a role in the future? One is regulation and making sure that those laws and regulations protect the citizens that need data rights. This is a very important role that Delete Me has been playing. We were one of the original helpers in drafting the California Consumer Privacy act, which was the very first state privacy act in the US which has now been replicated in a dozen different states. Secondly, I'm going to talk about AI. AI is already in a place where an unsophisticated attacker that wants to create a social engineering headache can do so in a very compelling way. They can write a convincing string of emails. They can set up a voice recording that sounds like a relative of yours or a colleague at your company. So AI is going to be at the forefront of a lot of privacy risks, and it's our responsibility, and we are actively working on ways to remove your data from these AI databases and to keep it redacted so that this kind of weaponization that I'm talking about doesn't become as much of a problem. For more information on Deleteme and its services, go to joindeleteme.com escalation and use the code ESCALATION to get 20% off a personal plan and you can contact them there about a special offer to protect your business, too. That's joindeleteme.com escalation. Code escalation. Now back to the show.

[Tyler McBrien]

We're back on Capitol Hill in the fall of 2024. We've been following the cultural forces around all week, and it's one of our last days with them in Washington. Now, Valeri, Max and I are running through the halls of the King Cannon Office Building, where the US House of Representatives goes to work. We're here for another performance by the cultural forces, but this one is special. Valeri's been hyping it up to us all week.

[Benjamin Wittes]

We are performing for a group of congressmen, Republicans. There'll be around 20, 25 of them, and we, in fact, we are a bit late.

[Tyler McBrien]

Valeri and the rest of the cultural forces know that if there's anyone they need to talk to, it's these Republicans. The rest of the cultural forces have already arrived, but we're a bit lost. We try to keep up with Valeri while we dart through the halls checking office numbers. Yep, this way. 401 you said. We round a corner and finally we hear the familiar sound of a bandura echoing through the halls.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Can you hear the music? Yeah. See? Gotta trust me man. You will not conflate the sound of bandura with anything else.

[Tyler McBrien]

We follow the sound to a small side office and head inside. It's a spare conference room tucked between a few legislative offices. As we enter, we see Taras, Mikolaj, Sasha and the rest of the group sitting down in chairs, instruments at the ready. Good to see you again. We sit down and scan the room. We see dozens of empty chairs and tables stacked against the walls and only three or four young staffers mingling with the cultural forces. There is one lawmaker. It's Steve Cohen, a Democratic representative from Tennessee. Max and I look at each other. I wonder if we're actually a bit early. So we sit back and watch while the cultural forces do their. Representative Cohen bobs his head to the music while a few more staffers float in and out. Valeri and a few of the cultural forces check the door and look at their phones. We're all a bit on edge, waiting to see if anyone else is going to arrive. One by one, Taras, Nikolai and Sasha play some songs to their audience of one Democrat. After about 20 minutes, it becomes clear that no one else is going to show up. Cohen thanks the cultural forces for their time and heads for the door. The cultural forces smile as Cohen leaves, but afterwards it's clear that they're tired and a bit frustrated. And later that evening, Valeri explains what happened. Why no Republican lawmakers came.

[Benjamin Wittes]

They called to apologize. Yeah, the congressman who organized this event and they said it's the voting was really intense and they couldn't make it. He apologized.

[Tyler McBrien]

It was a hectic day on the Hill. In addition to all the normal election chaos, Congress voted to increase security for presidential candidates. That came after an assassination attempt on Donald Trump. But I think there's a simpler truth at play here. Washington has changed since the cultural forces first started touring here. We've spent this podcast describing all of the disagreements and tensions that have defined the Ukraine US relationship. Say what you will about moments like the Chikun Kyiv speech, the Budapest memo, or the Bucharest summit, but each was at least rooted in good faith efforts, efforts to help both countries. Trump and the impeachment inquiry in 2019 changed that dynamic. As a result, for many members of Congress. The relationship became solely focused on American political goals. US Support for Ukraine became tailored to whatever election headlines were being shot out of a firehose. The result for people like Ukraine's cultural forces was laid bare in that room with us in the Cannon office building that Russia's war in Ukraine has been going on for more than 10 years. At this point, Ukrainians have been telling the Americans the same story the whole time. The only difference now is that their audience is smaller. The finale of Escalation will release in two weeks. In the meantime, you'll hear a conversation with our reporting and production team about the latest developments in the war. Escalation is a product production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. You can follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on new episodes. And please leave us a rating and a review while you're there. Escalation's lead producer is Max Johnston. The show was reported and written by Anastasia Lapatana, Tyler McBrien, Max Johnston and Benjamin Wittes. Executive producers at Lawfare are Benjamin Wittes, Natalie Orpet and Scott Anderson. Executive producers at Goat Rodeo are Max Johnston, Ian Enright and Megan Adalski. Additional production assistants at Goat Radio from Isabel, Kirby McGowan, Rebecca Seidel, Kara Schillen, Jay Venables and Hazel Hoffman. Additional production assistance at Lawfare from Anna Hickey, Patrick Cole and Quinta Jurecic. Sound design, scoring, mixing and engineering from Max Johnston and Ian Enright Additional music from Blue Dot Sessions and Alibi Music. Our cover art was designed by Marie Kinovich.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Escalation is presented by Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal. Deleteme is trusted by 20% of the Fortune 500 and by 50 federal, state and county courts across the United States. For more information on Deleteme and its services for individuals and businesses, go to joindeleteme. Com. Escalation.