Escalation, Episode Three: Us vs. Them

Summary

The Lawfare Podcast: Escalation, Episode Three - "Us vs. Them"

Release Date: May 29, 2025
Hosts: Tyler McBrien and Anastasiya Lapatina
Description: This episode delves into the intricate and tumultuous history of U.S.-Ukrainian relations from Ukrainian independence in the late 20th century through the early 2000s, highlighting rampant corruption, the assassination of a prominent journalist, and the rise of Vladimir Putin amid shifting geopolitical landscapes.

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1. Introduction

In "Us vs. Them," the third episode of the "Escalation" series, hosts Tyler McBrien and Anastasiya Lapatina explore the fraught relationship between the United States and Ukraine during a period marked by corruption, political upheaval, and significant geopolitical shifts. This episode sets the stage by examining the late 1990s to early 2000s, a time when both Ukraine and Russia grappled with internal corruption and authoritarian tendencies, respectively, against the backdrop of emerging global security concerns.

2. The Corruption Crisis in Ukraine

Georgi Gangadze's Investigative Journalism

At the heart of Ukraine's struggle during the late 1990s was rampant corruption under President Leonid Kuchma. The episode introduces Miroslava Gangadze, head of the Eastern Europe newsroom at Voice of America, and her husband, Georgi Gangadze, a prominent Ukrainian journalist dedicated to exposing governmental corruption.

Miroslava recounts the challenges faced by journalists in this era:

"In the late 90s and early 2000s, in Ukraine, it was like the depression for Americans, only with political upheaval thrown in. How do you build a democracy on the rotting corpse of a communist government?"
— Anastasiya Lapatina [08:13]

The Murder of Georgi Gangadze

Georgi's relentless pursuit of the truth led him to uncover the so-called "Kuchma Klan," a network of loyalists granted political and personal favors by President Kuchma. His groundbreaking reports drew the ire of the administration, culminating in fierce government retaliation. After publishing critical stories, Georgi faced increasing pressure, culminating in his mysterious disappearance and subsequent murder:

"When I didn't come home that night, I was actually first angry because I was like, okay, what is going on? He's somewhere."
— Miroslava Gangadze [12:51]

Georgi's abduction and gruesome death ignited public outcry, leading to the infamous "Kuchmagate" scandal. Although several members of Kuchma's Interior Ministry were convicted for his murder in 2005, President Kuchma himself evaded direct implication, leaving lingering tensions and a tarnished political landscape.

Impact on U.S.-Ukraine Relations

The scandal significantly strained Ukraine's relationship with the United States. Despite exposing deep-seated corruption, American policymakers largely turned a blind eye, prioritizing national security interests, especially following the events of September 11, 2001.

"It's an example of America doing what's best for America, of its prevailing national security interests that after 9/11, completely overshadow everything else."
— Tyler McBrien [05:18]

3. Vladimir Putin's Ascension in Russia

Early Career and Political Maneuvering

Parallel to Ukraine's struggles, Russia witnessed the emergence of Vladimir Putin, whose rise from a KGB operative to the Prime Minister and eventually the President encapsulated a shift towards authoritarianism. David Satter, an American journalist in Moscow, provides insight into Putin's early tactics:

"He was the defender of the nation, and the nation consolidated around him and forgot what the real issue was, which was the massive corruption of the Yeltsin era, in which Putin had definitely participated."
— David Satter [28:28]

The Ryazan Incident and Consolidation of Power

A pivotal moment in Putin's rise was the Ryazan incident in September 1999, where bombs were planted in Ryazan under suspicious circumstances. Officially labeled a false flag operation by the FSB (Federal Security Service), credible insiders suggested it was orchestrated to cement Putin's image as a national savior. The aftermath saw the elimination of dissenting voices, including the murders of investigative journalists like Anna Politkovskaya and Alexander Litvinenko.

"And various Russians formed a social commission to investigate. And one by one, they were intimidated, attacked physically, or murdered."
— David Satter [29:56]

Within months, Boris Yeltsin appointed Putin as acting president, and by December 1999, Putin assumed the presidency with significant public support, bolstered by his handling of the Ryazan incident.

4. The Impact of September 11, 2001

The tragic events of 9/11 reshaped global priorities, thrusting the United States into a prolonged engagement in the Middle East. This seismic shift had profound implications for U.S.-Russia relations and the ongoing political dynamics in Ukraine.

Shifting U.S. Priorities

Post-9/11, the U.S. government redirected its focus towards combating terrorism, sidelining concerns over Ukrainian corruption. This pivot allowed for a pragmatic, if morally questionable, alignment with Vladimir Putin's Russia, prioritizing national security over democratic ideals.

"Putin may be corrupt, he may be murderous, he may be tearing down hopes for democracy in Russia, but he's working with us. And in the wake of 9/11, that's the only thing that matters."
— Tyler McBrien [32:33]

Geopolitical Realignments

The U.S.-Russia alliance against terrorism, despite Putin's authoritarian regime, exemplified the complex interplay between ethics and national interests. This relationship was characterized by cooperation in intelligence sharing and diplomatic efforts, overshadowing prior tensions and corruption scandals.

"We made the first and most fundamental mistake you can make in foreign policy, which was to base it on personalities rather than principles."
— David Satter [23:35]

5. The Kuchmagate Scandal's Lingering Effects

Despite the "Kuchmagate" scandal's initial uproar, its fallout was swiftly overshadowed by subsequent global events, notably the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003. The scandal weakened Ukraine's credibility but did little to recalibrate its relationship with the United States, which remained preoccupied with broader geopolitical strategies.

Erosion of Trust

The U.S. suspension of aid and cancellation of summits with Ukraine underscored the deep fissures that corruption can cause in international partnerships. However, geopolitical exigencies often trumped these concerns, leading to a continued tenuous alliance.

"The Kuchmagid scandal is largely forgotten in Washington, but America's trust in Ukraine remains shaken."
— Anastasiya Lapatina [37:12]

6. Conclusion

"Us vs. Them" paints a compelling narrative of how internal corruption and authoritarianism in Ukraine and Russia intersected with shifting U.S. foreign policy priorities in the post-9/11 world. The episode underscores the complexities of international relations, where moral imperatives are frequently weighed against strategic interests. By chronicling the assassination of Georgi Gangadze and the rise of Vladimir Putin, the episode highlights the enduring challenges of fostering democratic institutions amidst pervasive corruption and entrenched power structures.

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Notable Quotes:

• "It's an example of America doing what's best for America, of its prevailing national security interests that after 9/11, completely overshadow everything else."
  — Tyler McBrien [05:18]

• "He was the defender of the nation, and the nation consolidated around him and forgot what the real issue was, which was the massive corruption of the Yeltsin era, in which Putin had definitely participated."
  — David Satter [28:28]

• "Putin may be corrupt, he may be murderous, he may be tearing down hopes for democracy in Russia, but he's working with us. And in the wake of 9/11, that's the only thing that matters."
  — Tyler McBrien [32:33]

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Additional Information:

For those interested in exploring more about the topics discussed, "Escalation" is part of a series produced by Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. Listeners can access the full series on the Lawfare Presents channel or through various podcast platforms.

Transcript

[Benjamin Wittes]

The following podcast contains advertising to access an ad free version of the Lawfare Podcast. Become a material supporter of [e-mail] lawfare that's patreon.com Lawfair also check out Lawfare's other podcast offerings, Rational Security Chatter, Lawfare no Bull and the Aftermath.

[Tyler McBrien]

It's the Lawfare podcast I'm Tyler McBrien, managing editor of Lawfare. This afternoon we're continuing to bring you a little something extra on top of our daily Lawfare Podcast episodes. Today, it's episode three of Escalation, our latest narrative series that I co hosted with Lawfare's Ukraine fellow, Anastasiya Lapatina. Throughout the show, Nastya and I trace the history of US Ukrainian relations from the time of Ukrainian independence through the present. You can listen to Escalation in its entirety as well as our other narrative series on our Lawfare Presents channel. Wherever you get your podcasts, episode three picks up the story in the late 90s as Russia reverts back to its corrupt authoritarian ways and Ukraine begins to slide backward with it. In Ukraine, that corruption will lead to a gruesome murder, including cover up, while in Russia it will destroy any hopes for an emerging democracy. This is escalation. Episode 3 us versus them.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Escalation is presented by Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal. Deleteme is trusted by 20% of the Fortune 500 and by federal, state and county courts across the United States. For more information on Deleteme and its services for individuals and businesses, go to joindeleteme.com escalation.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Previously on Escalation.

[Tyler McBrien]

Denuclearizing Ukraine that was clearly the overwhelming priority of the US Government.

[David Satter]

Our objective was to receive in exchange national security guarantees.

[Tyler McBrien]

We were not prepared to make that.

[John Gilmore]

Kind of commitment to the Ukrainians.

[David Satter]

Skeptics once claimed that the nuclear threat would actually grow after the Soviet Union dissolved. The skeptics have been proven wrong.

[John Gilmore]

It's a total fail.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

Actually. I think you cannot have any type of agreements with Russia because they all end up bad.

[Tyler McBrien]

So people in Ukraine describe this moment, I think specifically as a betrayal.

[John Gilmore]

Do you think that's accurate?

[Benjamin Wittes]

Do you think that's fair?

[Tyler McBrien]

Yes, it's a betrayal.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

I'll be honest, it's hard to look back at history as a Ukrainian, especially during a war when the stakes of every decision are so high and behind all of the public politics there is so much misunderstanding and frustration between Kyiv and Washington. While making this show, I keep finding moments from decades ago when I just want to scream into the void. I why? Why did Americans think that this or that was a good idea? The Budapest memo is an example of that. The Chikinkyev speech is another. But there are also these awkward moments of shame, almost because the Ukrainian government has messed up too badly again and again. We've done things that made us look unreliable, corrupt, autocratic. A lot like Russia, if I'm being honest.

[Tyler McBrien]

Just look at the late 90s and early 2000s, when Russia is reverting back to its authoritarian ways and Ukraine slides backward with it. This chapter involves something much less deadly than nuclear warheads, but much harder to root out corruption. In Ukraine. That corruption will lead to a gruesome murder and cover up in Russia. It will destroy any hopes for an emerging democracy.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

In this episode, you'll hear from Moroslava Gangadze. She's the head of the Eastern Europe newsroom at Voice of America and one of Ukraine's most famous journalists. In the late 90s, Moroslava helps uncover the pervasive corruption of Ukraine's president, Leonid Kuchma. And that puts a target on her back.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

And that moment I realized nobody, nobody would save my life or nobody would protect me.

[Tyler McBrien]

Then you'll meet David Sater, an American journalist in Moscow. Sater covers the political rise of a man named Vladimir Putin and the cozy relationship he forms with the White House.

[David Satter]

You know, he was on the side of whoever was in power and especially who would be beneficial for him personally.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

The story we're about to tell you is about one of the worst periods in Ukraine's modern history. But at the same time, it's also about America turning a blind eye to a lot that is important, both in Ukraine and in Russia.

[Tyler McBrien]

It's an example of America doing what's best for America, of its prevailing national security interests that after 9 11, completely overshadow everything else.

[David Satter]

With that moment, the clock of war began to tick.

[Tyler McBrien]

From Lawfare and Goat Rodeo, this is Escalation, a podcast about the United States and Ukraine.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

I'm Anastasia lopatyna.

[Tyler McBrien]

I'm Tyler McBrien. This is episode three, us versus them.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

I want to begin by introducing you to a man named Georgi Gangaza.

[Benjamin Wittes]

In this film, I don't claim absolute objectivity. I made it with gratitude to those.

[Tyler McBrien]

Who shed blood for the freedom and.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Independence of my country.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

That's Georgi speaking in the opening scene of his documentary Shadows of War. The film documents a civil war in his home country, the former Soviet republic of Georgia. It airs on Ukrainian television in 1993, and for him.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

It was very important to tell the.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Story of Georgia, and that's Georgi's wife, Miroslava. She meets Georgi a few years after Ukraine's independence. They eventually get married and have twin girls. And as they navigate parenthood, Moroslava and Georgy both end up on Ukrainian television, where Georgy hosts several news programs.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

For him. As George Orwell would say, journalism is something that other people don't want to know or say, and the rest is prayer. That was him. That was how he viewed journalism.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Georgy's career in Ukraine is just beginning. When a new president is elected, Leonid Kuchma, he immediately begins establishing strong relationships with the West. Kuchma negotiates and eventually signs the Budapest memo. This is an exciting new chapter for both Kyiv and Washington. The White House is eager to play ball while Kuchma presents Ukraine's new democracy to the world. But life is brutally difficult back in Ukraine. It is the mid-90s, and they are kind of like the depression for Americans, only with the political upheaval thrown in. How do you build a democracy on the rotting corpse of a communist government? No one knew the answer to that because it had never happened before. For everyday Ukrainians like Miroslava, it's an incredibly difficult and strange time.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

Everything was new. There was no rules. We did not know what to expect. The feeling of uncertainty and unknown.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

When you combine economic hardship with government inefficiency, you get a perfect storm for corruption. And Georgi and Miroslava Gangadza are two of the journalists determined to make that corruption visible.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

I remember first one of the story was about Kuchma Klan, that Kuchma brought all these people he trust to his government and giving them contracts for the personal favors or political favors.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

So while Kyiv and Washington are getting used to each other and growing trust, journalists are uncovering Kuchma's corrupt and autocratic presidency. And when Georgi's first Kuchma clan story goes on the air, the president's office calls his editors.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

That was the first time he was warned that he has to be careful about what kind of stories and how he covered them. For me, that moment signifies the end of free media in Ukraine and the start of controlled coverage.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Gheorgi doesn't want to comply with state censorship, so he loses his job and struggles with finding a new one. Few places are eager to hire the guy in the president's crosshairs.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

The space for free journalism was shrinking in Ukraine very fast, and Georgi decided that he will write this letter to tell the world what is happening with the freedom of the press in Ukraine and democracy in Ukraine.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

He gets dozens of Ukrainian journalists to sign this letter detailing how Kuchma's government is attacking press freedoms. Georgi then takes a plane to Washington just as President Kuchma is on his way there, too, for an official visit. While Kuchma takes meetings at the White House, Georgy is meeting with Americans to rally support for independent journalism back in Ukraine. But President Kuchma keeps the pressure on him.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

And that was the first time when one of the person from Kuchma's coverage team came to him and said that your plane was death.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

But Georgi is unfazed. In fact, he wants to expand his coverage in Ukraine. And some Americans tell him that there might be a way for him to escape state censorship. What if he created his own outlet on the Internet?

[Miroslava Gangadze]

Online was not yet even a thing yet. It was barely. Barely coming up. It was early 2000. Since he was in US he talked to some people and they were like, oh, this is possibility. You can actually have this webpage and you can post there, and people will read, and they cannot control it.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Georgi jumps on this idea. Together with colleagues, he creates a new site called Ukrainika Pravda that means Ukrainian Truth. It remains one of the biggest and most important Ukrainian news outlets to this day. But within weeks of the webpage going live, Georgi notices surveillance cars are following him, waiting for hours near his home and office. The police are intimidating his colleagues and friends, questioning them about Georgi for no valid reason. Georgi tells Miroslava that they and their two small kids may have to leave the country.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

We did not realize the danger. We didn't know what to expect, really.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

In July, Georgi writes another open letter, this time to the office of the General Prosecutor in Ukraine. I, journalist Georgi Gangadze, express my categorical protest against the insolent behavior of law enforcement agencies, which started a campaign of harassment against me and my work colleagues. The letter describes police misconduct and asks the general Prosecutor to protect Georgi from, quote, moral terror. But the pleas go unanswered. And then one night, Georgi doesn't come home.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

When he didn't come home that night, I was actually first angry because I was like, okay, what is going on? He's somewhere.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Georgi's disappearance immediately becomes the biggest story in Ukraine. The public outcry is so loud that President Kuchma announces he will take personal control of the investigation. But days turn into weeks with no sign of Georgy. Miroslava is checking hospitals Jails, psychiatric facilities, and she's putting on a media campaign.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

In the months or months and a half, we learned that, yeah, that they discovered a body. It was horrible. It was horrible.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Almost two months after he disappeared, Georgi's body is found in a forest some 40 miles away from Kyiv. He was beheaded. Less than a month later, Ukrainian politician Oleksandr Maroz stands in front of the Ukrainian parliament and accuses President Kuchma of killing Gangadze. Moreover, he has tapes, cassettes with hundreds of hours of recorded conversations between Kuchma and his inner circle, the top brass of the Ukrainian government. One of Kuchma's bodyguards had tapped to the president's office. He said he was shocked by the level of corruption he witnessed on the job. So he decided to make it public.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

One of the colleague came and brought the tape, and he put the tape in the tape recorder. And I am hearing this discussion and specifically Kuchma talking with his head of administration.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

In the tapes, you hear President Kuchma order officials to break the law, discuss falsifying elections and getting rid of political opponents. And you also hear him talk about his loudest public critic, Georgi Gangadza. Kuchma says Georgi's outlet, Krinska Pravda, has gone too far and calls Georgi a bastard. We need to do something about him, Kuchma tells his chief of staff. Deport him to Georgia and throw him out there, says Kuchma, swearing, clearly agitated. The Chechens should kidnap him. The president says he will repeat this idea again and again to his Minister of Interior. There isn't a specific recording of Kuchma ordering anyone to kill Gangadze, but there are countless moments when you can hear that as long as Georgi remains alive, Kuchma has a chip on his shoulder. The president angrily swears. He calls Georgi nasty names, orders officials to get rid of him. And he discusses fabricating criminal cases against Gangadze and his colleagues.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

And then I'm hearing he's talking about.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Me.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

That I'm making too much noise. And I'm realizing that I'm the only one left to carry for my kids. And if something happened to me, they could become orphans.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Miroslava's daughters are less than three years old.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

@ that moment, I realized that the president of my country is possibly involved in the murder of my husband. Husband. And that moment I decided that I would have to leave the country.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Moroslava and the kids get political asylum in the us where she works with the FBI to help identify Georgi's. Buddy and investigate his murder. Moroslava spends the next few years on on a lonely quest to get justice for Georgi. And in 2005, several members of Kuchma's Interior Ministry go on trial and are convicted for Georgi's murder. But President Kuchma is never directly implicated.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

It's not full justice, and I don't know if I ever would get full justice. These people in power are too powerful. But I do believe he is responsible of my husband's murder.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

These days, Miroslava talks a lot about Georgy's legacy. How journalists and independent news outlets like Ukrinska Pravda are still exposing corruption today. And how Georgi's death sparked demand for transparency and reform in Ukraine.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

He become a part of history, part of Ukrainian development. We become part of Ukrainian history history. And it's important Ukrainian history because I believe if not through his life, through his death, he changed this country.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

The scandal around Georgi's murder and Kuchma's corruption would come to be known as Kuchmagate. The allegations are undeniably horrific, but it has almost no impact on Ukraine's relationship with the US what wrecks the relationship between the two is something else on those tapes, something that hits much closer to home for the White House. But that's after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

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[Benjamin Wittes]

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[Tyler McBrien]

We're back. Before the break, you heard a tape of President Kuchma making threats against journalist Georgi Gongadza. Then, In September of 2000, Gungadza is found dead. Secretly recorded tapes make Kuchma look directly responsible for Gongada's murder. The country is shocked. Tens of thousands of Ukrainians take to Kyiv's main square, the Maidan demanding the President resign. Washington isn't pleased with the scandal, but doesn't do much in its immediate aftermath. And a few months later, their attention goes elsewhere entirely because the United States plunges into its own catastrophe. Holy shit. The tragedy of 911 changes everything. The United States, the Middle east, and Washington's relationship with the rest of the world, including Ukraine. As the Americans are grappling with how to respond, both Ukraine and Russia are figuring out how to remain relevant. And here we have to introduce you to a new but extremely important character in this story. One of the very first foreign leaders to call President George W. Bush after 9 11. Vladimir Putin.

[Benjamin Wittes]

I looked a man in the eye. I found it to be very straightforward and trustworthy. I was able to get a sense of his soul.

[David Satter]

So we made the first and most fundamental mistake you can make in foreign policy, which was to base it on personalities rather than principles.

[Tyler McBrien]

That last voice you hear is David Sater. Sater has spent years in Moscow covering the Kremlin, and he saw Vladimir Putin's rise up close. So who is this Putin guy and where did he come from? During the Cold War, Putin spends years in the kgb. That's the Soviet Union's notorious security and intelligence agency, which eliminates all domestic opposition and spreads chaos around the world. Then Putin's political career starts in St. Petersburg, Russia's second biggest city. In 1991, he becomes a deputy to the city's mayor, Anatoly Sobchak. Sobchak is an ambitious politician, while Putin is the guy who actually gets things done. David Sater says that Putin takes control of St. Petersburg not by cracking down on its criminals, but by working with them.

[David Satter]

It put Putin in a position of considerable power, and he successfully organized the cooperation of the city, the criminal gangs, and the security services, and had a reputation for collecting bribes to resolve any problem and splitting them with Sobchak.

[Tyler McBrien]

So that's Putin's first political rodeo. He launders millions of dollars, mainly by siphoning raw materials like oil out of the country, all at a time when the west is literally shipping food to Russia. Five years later, Putin arrives in Moscow. He has several jobs in the Kremlin, even gets appointed the head of Russia's Federal Security Services, the fsb. But a year later, he climbs even higher and becomes Russia's prime minister. So how did he do it?

[David Satter]

Yeltsin made a remark which was very telling. He said that I admired Putin for his unselfish loyalty. And it's generally thought that his loyalty to Sobchak, and ready to shield him against charges of corruption, recommended him to Yeltsin and the Yeltsin entourage, who even then realized they might need the same thing.

[Tyler McBrien]

President Yeltsin is loved in the us but at home, he's drowning in corruption scandals. Yeltsin is also old and sick, drinking too much and looking weaker and weaker by the day. Thus comes Operation Successor, the Kremlin's effort to find Russia's next president. The job really only has one loyalty. Putin fits the description perfectly. But there is one the public barely knows him. Then, In September of 1999, just weeks after Putin is appointed prime minister, four apartment buildings in Russia are blown up with military grade explosives.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

Wednesday night's blast left a gaping hole in the center of the building and shattered the windows of others over a wide area. Many bodies are still thought to be buried, although rescuers say the debris and choking smoke makes survivors unlikely.

[Tyler McBrien]

More than 300 innocent people die in several cities, including Moscow.

[Miroslava Gangadze]

As yet, the motive for this latest bombing is a mystery.

[David Satter]

Once those buildings were blown up, the whole country was traumatized. People were blown up in the middle of the night while they slept. I mean, what greater way to engender insecurity?

[Tyler McBrien]

At the time, the Russian military is exchanging fire with rebels in the nearby republic of Chechnya. So the Kremlin immediately blames the attacks on Chechen Islamic terrorists. And at the forefront of the blame game, is Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

[David Satter]

He was suddenly everywhere, vowing bloody revenge against those who had murdered innocent Russian people as they slept.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Those who have done this don't deserve to be called animals.

[Tyler McBrien]

They are worse.

[Benjamin Wittes]

They are mad dogs. They should be treated as such.

[Tyler McBrien]

Putin is on every screen and every media outlet, leading the effort to protect his country from evil. And in a matter of weeks, Putin transforms from an unknown Kremlin operative into a national hero. His approval ratings reach 80%.

[David Satter]

He was the defender of the nation, and the nation consolidated around him and forgot what the real issue was, which was the massive corruption of the Yeltsin era, in which Putin had definitely participated. And all this would have worked flawlessly if it had not been for one mistake. And that was the mistake they made in Ryazan when they were caught putting a fifth bomb in the basement of a building.

[Tyler McBrien]

At the end of September, panicked locals in the city of Ryazan see several men place suspicious looking sacks in their apartment building. A bomb squad arrives, and the bags test positive for hexagon, the same explosive that killed hundreds in other attacks. As they collect more evidence, much of it points away from the Chechens. Instead, the men who were seen placing the explosives in Ryazan are eventually linked to the fsb, Russia's security service that Putin led just a year prior. FSB leadership say it was just a training exercise, but strange inconsistencies emerge in the aftermath. Over the years, anonymous insiders tell journalists like David Satter that the bombing was an inside job, a stunt to propel Putin to power.

[David Satter]

And various Russians formed a social commission to investigate. And one by one, they were intimidated, attacked physically, or murdered. Two people whom I knew very well, Sergei Yushenkov and Yuri Shekhachikhin were murdered. Anna Politkovskaya was murdered. She tried to investigate the bombings. Alexander Litvinenko, also murdered, tried to investigate the bombings. So of the Russians who did basically what I did, they were all killed.

[Tyler McBrien]

The bombings and their role in bringing Putin to power are a decades old mystery. Sater eventually writes a book about them, which is one of the reasons he was later expelled from Russia. But in the end, none of it matters. In December 1999, Yeltsin resigns and appoints Putin as the acting president. Putin's first decree in office is to give Yeltsin lifelong immunity from prosecution. In the spring, the Russian public overwhelmingly votes to make Putin their commander in chief. And when 911 happens, the former KGB agent, the guy professionally trained in the art of deception, jumps at the opportunity to bond with President Bush.

[David Satter]

When Putin hurried to send his condolences after the September 11th terrorist attack and say that we're both fighting an Islamic terrorist menace, there was no one in the new administration who had the wherewithal or the information to understand that he was covering up his own crimes.

[Benjamin Wittes]

He's a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country. I wouldn't have invited him to my ranch if I didn't trust him.

[Tyler McBrien]

President George W. Bush and the rest of the Washington establishment are now solely focused on the Middle East. Bush's White House is looking for allies, and he finds one in Putin.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Today, the world is building a broad international coalition against terrorism, and Russia is.

[David Satter]

Taking a full and responsible role.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Russia sharing valuable intelligence on terrorist organizations, providing overflight clearance for humanitarian missions, and helping out diplomatically.

[Tyler McBrien]

This post 911 period forges the best relationship the US and Russia would ever have. Putin may be corrupt, he may be murderous, he may be tearing down hopes for democracy in Russia, but he's working with us. And in the wake of 9 11, that's the only thing that matters. We'll be back after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Support for escalation comes from Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal for individuals and businesses. We're back with Delete Me's head of research, John Gilmore, again. John, your website says Delete me has removed 100 million personal listings over the past 15 years. Can you share an insight you've learned from all these removals?

[John Gilmore]

About eight years ago, the founder of our company said to me, I have a weird feeling about something. A lot of people who subscribe to our service have unusual names. And what we found through research was that people with the name John Smith may have hundreds of thousands of personal records that will be matched to them. Vaguely, because there are a lot of John Smiths out there. And it is very easy to confuse one John Smith with another. But what I thought was really sort of the interesting thing about discoverability is that the easy to find people are the ones with the unusual names. And you'll find that that's that like, for instance, a lot of first generation and second generation immigrants to this country are some of the people whose information is most abused because their names are actually relatively easy to find accurate matches for.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Take it from perhaps the only Benjamin Wittes in the country. That really resonates with me.

[John Gilmore]

There are none like you.

[Benjamin Wittes]

For more information on Delete Me and its services, go to JoinDeleteMe.com and use the code ESCALATION to get 20% off a personal plan. And you can contact them there about a special offer to protect your business too. That's joindeleteme.com escalation code escalation. Now back to the show.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

We're back. So in both Ukraine and Russia, the White House ignores rampant corruption and its violent consequences because all that matters is the new fight against terrorism in the Middle East. The decision for the Russians and the Ukrainians is are you with us or are you with them? The Russians make their choice quickly, cozy up to Washington and their crimes are forgiven or at least ignored. But Ukraine and its corruption has its own strange role to play in the war on terror. Remember that bodyguard who tapped President Leonid Kuchma's office? He's eventually given asylum in the US where his tapes keep causing problems. In March of 2002, he hands over a recording of President Kuchma approving the sale of weapons to Iraq. That's right, Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

[Benjamin Wittes]

The US and British non proliferation experts.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Met the Ukrainian presidential chief of staff.

[Benjamin Wittes]

In Kiev on Monday. They're trying to find out whether Ukraine sold a sophisticated radar system to Iraq which can detect approaching aircraft without tipping off their pilots. Such a sale would be particularly sensitive amid U.S. threats of an attack on Iraq. The U.S. ambassador said the aim was to find out whether the radar had been delivered.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

Whatever shred of credibility Kuchma had left in Washington is now gone. The US suspends an aid package to Ukraine and cancels an upcoming summit. The White House wants to be nowhere near Kuchma, and I mean that literally. At one event, NATO officials specifically rearrange ceding plans to move President Bush away from the Ukrainian president. But Ukraine's crimes are forgiven once they pick the right side. In 2003, American forces invade Iraq and nearly 2,000 Ukrainian troops deploy. With Ukraine becomes the fourth largest contributor of troops to the American stabilization force in Iraq.

[Benjamin Wittes]

At this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger. On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

The Kuch Magid scandal is largely forgotten in Washington, but America's trust in Ukraine remains shaken. In October of 2003, Washington welcomes Ukraine's recently appointed Prime Minister, Viktor Yanukovych. The Americans caution him about Ukraine's regressing democracy, about corruption, human rights and the rule of law. Yanukovych reiterates Ukraine's commitment to democracy. But a year later, as millions of Ukrainians head to the polls, it becomes clear that Yanukovych didn't believe a word he had said.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Hundreds of thousands protesting the results of the election and calling for a new.

[David Satter]

Vote, pitting their candidate, the west leaning challenger Viktor Yushchenko against the pro Moscow.

[John Gilmore]

Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko was poisoned during the campaign.

[Anastasiya Lapatina]

The country's election commission ignored reports of fraud declaring crime. Kremlin backed Viktor Yanukovych the winner. Ukraine's Orange Revolution that's next time on Escalation.

[Tyler McBrien]

Escalation is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. You can follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on new episodes. And please leave us a rating and a review while you're there. Escalation's lead producer is Max Johnston. The show was reported and written by Anastasia Lapotna, Tyler McBrien, Max Johnston and Benjamin Wittes. Executive producers at Lawfair are Benjamin Wittes, Natalie Orpet and Scott Anderson. Executive producers at Goat Rodeo are Max Johnston, Ian Enright and Megan Adolsky. Additional production assistants at Goat Radio From Isabel Kirby McGowan, Rebecca Seidel, Kara Schillen, Jay Venables and Hazel Hoffman. Additional production assistants at Lawfare from Anna Hickey, Patrick Cole and Quinta Jurecic. Sound design, scoring, mixing and engineering from Max Johnston and Ian Enright. Our theme is Enigma by Charlie Edwards. Additional music from Blue Dot Sessions and Alibi Music. Our cover art was designed by Marie Kinovich.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Escalation is presented by Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal. Deleteme is trusted by 20% of the Fortune 500 and by 50 federal, state and county courts across the United States. For more information on Deleteme and its services for individuals and businesses, go to joindeleteme.com escalation.