Lawfare Archive: Human Rights Abuses in Saudi Arabia with Joey Shea

Summary

The Lawfare Podcast: Human Rights Abuses in Saudi Arabia with Joey Shea

Episode Overview In this archive episode of The Lawfare Podcast, released on May 18, 2025, Caroline Cornett, an intern at Lawfare, revisits a discussion from September 26, 2023. The episode features Anna Hickey, Associate Editor of Communications for Lawfare, engaging with Joey Shea, a researcher from Human Rights Watch (HRW). Their conversation delves into HRW’s report on the systematic abuses of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers at the Saudi Arabia-Yemen border, the international community's response, and the broader human rights landscape under Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS).

Key Topics and Discussions

1. Human Rights Watch Report on Saudi Arabia-Yemen Border Abuses

   Joey Shea begins the conversation by outlining the findings of HRW's August report (04:05). The report exposes severe mistreatment of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers attempting to cross from Yemen into Saudi Arabia. Key atrocities include:

   • Use of Explosive Weapons and Close-Range Shootings: Saudi border guards employed explosive weapons against migrants, including women and children, and shot them at close range (04:18).

   • Systematic and Widespread Violations: The abuses are not isolated incidents but part of a broader, systematic pattern. For instance, HRW documented a horrific case where a migrant was forced to rape another after refusal, leading to the victim's death by Saudi guards (04:31).

   • Historical Context: These abuses have been occurring since 2014, with ongoing issues of arbitrary detention and torture. However, the scale and brutality reported in 2023 mark a significant escalation (04:18).

2. Investigative Approach and Timeline

   The investigation commenced in January 2023 and concluded in June 2023 (05:55). HRW utilized satellite imagery, social media videos, and firsthand testimonies from dozens of Ethiopian migrants to corroborate their findings. Despite continuous receipt of new testimonies, HRW prioritized data collection to focus on analysis and report publication (06:48).

3. Motivations Behind Migration to Saudi Arabia

   Caroline Cornett explains that Ethiopian migrants are driven by multiple factors, primarily economic opportunities. Approximately 750,000 Ethiopian migrants reside in Saudi Arabia, attracted by job prospects. Additionally, many flee ongoing conflicts in Ethiopia, seeking safety and stability (06:59).

4. Response from Saudi, Yemeni, and Ethiopian Governments

   Upon releasing the report, HRW reached out to the Saudi Arabian Human Rights Commission, the Ministry of Interior and Defense, and later the Ethiopian government. However, responses were largely dismissive. Saudi officials labeled the claims as "unfounded and untrue" without providing substantive rebuttals (08:40).

   The Ethiopian government has indicated intentions to investigate the abuses with Saudi authorities, though details remain scarce (08:40).

5. International Community and UN Involvement

   Currently, the report has elicited some media statements from individual countries expressing concern. HRW is advocating for a UN-backed independent investigation, preferably through the Human Rights Council, to ensure impartiality and credibility (10:12, 10:41).

6. United States' Role and Response

   The United States has yet to make any official statements regarding the report. Caroline Cornett criticizes the Biden administration for not following through on campaign promises to hold Saudi Arabia accountable for human rights violations, including the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi (12:13).

   • Security and Economic Ties: The US-Saudi relationship is deeply entrenched, with the US being a major arms supplier and having military personnel embedded within Saudi security systems. Cornett emphasizes that US involvement in training Saudi border guards implicates the US in the ongoing abuses (14:06).

7. Human Rights Under Mohammed bin Salman (MBS)

   Since MBS ascended to power in 2015, there has been a marked deterioration in Saudi Arabia's human rights record:

   • Tyrannical Repression: High-profile cases include the sentencing of Salma Al Shihab to 34 years for Twitter activity (21:07) and Mohamed Al Ghamdi to death for similar online expressions (21:07).

   • Suppression of Activists: Women’s rights activists, despite achieving milestones like the right to drive, have faced arbitrary detention and torture (21:07).

   • Discriminatory Legislation: The recent personal status law codifies existing discrimination against women, disregarding inclusive consultation (21:07).

   Cornett argues that while MBS has introduced certain social reforms, these have been overshadowed by escalating repression and human rights abuses, consolidating his power and silencing dissent (24:25).

8. US Security Agreements and Future Implications

   Recent discussions about a potential US-Saudi security agreement raise alarms given the documented abuses. HRW warns that such an agreement could further empower the Saudi regime and implicate the US in facilitating human rights violations, especially concerning the use of US-supplied weapons in Yemen (27:14).

9. Human Rights Watch's Additional Concerns

   Beyond border abuses, HRW highlights the role of Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund (PIF) in perpetuating human rights violations. The PIF, valued at approximately $700 billion, invests in key sectors of the US economy, raising concerns about economic power being consolidated alongside political and security dominance (28:39).

   • Senate Investigations: Senator Blumenthal's Senate Subcommittee on Investigations is scrutinizing deals between the PGA Tour and the PIF, highlighting the need for greater oversight (28:39).

Notable Quotes

• "If these killings were part of a broader Saudi policy to murder migrants, they would constitute a crime against humanity." — Caroline Cornett (04:31)

• "The US needs to recognize that this strong security and economic relationship has a role to play in the abuses that MBS and the authorities underneath him have been committing." — Caroline Cornett (14:06)

• "The narratives of reform are just not accurate. ... at the same time, this has been accompanied by an absolutely astounding level of repression." — Caroline Cornett (21:07)

• "These reports of possible U.S.-Saudi security defense pact are deeply concerning." — Caroline Cornett (27:14)

Conclusions and Implications

The episode underscores the gravity of human rights abuses perpetrated by Saudi Arabia against Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers, highlighting systemic violence and repression under MBS's leadership. Despite international attention, particularly from organizations like Human Rights Watch, meaningful accountability remains elusive. The United States' continued strategic and economic ties with Saudi Arabia, without addressing these severe human rights concerns, exacerbate the situation, potentially implicating the US in facilitating ongoing atrocities.

Caroline Cornett calls for robust international action, including independent investigations backed by the UN, and increased scrutiny of Saudi Arabia's economic entanglements with the West. The episode serves as a critical examination of the intersection between national security interests and human rights accountability, urging policymakers and global leaders to reassess and realign their engagements with regimes like Saudi Arabia's under MBS.

Further Engagement Listeners interested in supporting The Lawfare Podcast and accessing additional content are encouraged to visit [e-mail]. For more in-depth analysis and ongoing discussions on national security, law, and policy, visit www.lawfareblog.com.

Transcript

[Caroline Cornett]

The following podcast contains advertising to access an ad free version of the Lawfare Podcast. Become a material supporter of [e-mail] lawfare that's patreon.com Lawfair also check out Lawfare's other podcast offerings, Rational Security, Chatter, Lawfare, no Bull and the Aftermath.

[Trey Farrow]

Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realise you're missing a part. It's okay, because, you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay. They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes. Whatever you need. And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you've ordered the right thing. Thing all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time Ebay Things People Love.

[Anna Hickey]

Got a new puppy or kitten? Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet Insurance comes in. It helps you cover vet costs so that you can focus on what's best for you and your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as 3 seconds. Pro Tip Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is.

[Joey Shea]

Carol I'm Caroline Cornett, intern at Lawfare, with an episode from the Lawfare archive for May 18, 2025. This week, President Donald Trump visited Saudi Arabia as part of a four day tour of the Arab Gulf states, where he received a personal welcome from Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. While Trump has shunned some of the United States traditional allies, he celebrated their relationship between the US And Saudi Arabia, calling it a bedrock of security and prosperity. For today's Archive episode, I selected an episode from September 26, 2023, in which Anna Hickey sat down with Joey Shea, a researcher for Human Rights Watch and contributor to a report detailing the systematic abuses of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers at the Saudi Arabia Yemen border. They discussed their report how how the international community has responded, the human rights record of Prince Mohammed bin Salman since he ascended the throne in 2015, and more.

[Anna Hickey]

I'm Anna Hickey, associate editor of communications for Lawfare, and this is the Lawfare podcast set September 26, 2023. On August 21, the Human Rights Watch released a report detailing systematic abuses of Ethiopian migrants and asylum Seekers at the Saudi Arabia, Yemen border. Researchers interviewed dozens of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers and found that Saudi border guards had used explosive weapons on them and shot migrants at close range. I sat down with Joey Shea, a researcher in the Middle east and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch, who investigates human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. We discussed the Human Rights Watch recent report, how the international community has responded so far, and the human rights record of Prince Mohammed bin Salman since he ascended the throne in 2015. It's the Lawfare podcast. September 26, 2023, human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia with Joey Hsieh.

[Joey Shea]

So to begin the conversation today, Joey, can you give a brief overview of what the Human Rights Watch found during its investigation at the Saudi Arabia and Yemen border into the treatment of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers?

[Caroline Cornett]

Absolutely. So in our report released in August, we found that Saudi border guards were using explosive weapons against Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers attempting to cross the northern Yemeni border into Saudi Arabia. Now, we have documented abuses along this migration route for many years, since 2014. And this route begins at the Horn of Africa. So often these migrants will leave from Djibouti, cross the Gulf of Aden, and go up through Yemen to reach the northern border. And as I said, we've been documenting violations along this route for many years. And we have long documented issues of arbitrary detention, torture in detention centers, but never before have we documented abuses at quite such the scale, particularly the use of explosive weapons against women and children, shooting at close range. We documented a horrible example of one migrant being forced to rape another migrant after another migrant had refused to conduct the rape, who was then killed by Saudi border guards. And we found that these violations were widespread and systematic. And if these killings were part of a broader Saudi policy to murder migrants, they would constitute a crime against humanity.

[Joey Shea]

Was there a precipitating event into beginning the investigation? And over what time period did the investigation look at these acts being taken by Saudi border guards?

[Caroline Cornett]

We had been receiving increasing reports of these abuses, and there had been a preliminary investigation that we'd become aware of. And so we decided to take a closer look. But the research began in January 2023 and concluded in June 2023. That's the period in which the interviews had taken place and also during which the digital investigation took place. So the use of satellite imagery to corroborate the claims, as well as hundreds of social media videos that we collected, and, you know, to this day, we still receive testimonies and numbers of migrants that we could possibly interview. But you know, of course, at some point the collection of data needs to stop and the writing and release needs to begin.

[Joey Shea]

Why are Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers headed to Saudi Arabia? Do they see it as more job opportunities there? Are they just fleeing from violence in Ethiopia? What's the kind of cause?

[Caroline Cornett]

So there are a myriad of factors which cause these migrants to leave and to seek opportunities in Saudi Arabia. Certainly economic motivations are one of them. There are approximately 750,000 Ethiopian migrants currently living in Saudi Arabia. So certainly that is a motivating factor. Also, many are fleeing conflict in Ethiopia as well.

[Joey Shea]

And during your investigation into the treatment of these Ethiopian migrants at the Saudi Arabian border, you did you find that there was specific areas where it was concentrated, or was it just all along the border? Does it seem like there are just certain sectors of the border guards that might be perpetrating this violence, but it's not necessarily systematic, or does it appear to be a systematic actions taken at that border?

[Caroline Cornett]

We found that the violations were systematic and widespread. We specifically documented two separate migrant camps from which the migrants would would begin their attempt to cross the border. And we focused our investigation on these two camps and geolocated them and cross referenced the many photos and videos that we were able to collect. And as well as we documented some burial sites as well that we watched grow over a number of months.

[Joey Shea]

And has there been any response from the Saudi Arabian government or the Yemen government or the Ethiopian government about the report since it's come out?

[Caroline Cornett]

So we did write to the Saudi Arabian Human Rights Commission as well as the Ministry of Interior and Defense before the release of the report. We outlined our findings and shared with them a number of questions. Unfortunately, we did not receive a response from any Saudi authorities in response to media questions after the report was released, there were a number of comments by sort of unnamed Saudi officials responding to the violations documented in the reports. These responses, you know, mainly said that our claims were unfounded and untrue. I actually had a debate with a Saudi analyst who is based in Riyadh who again said that the claims were unfounded and untrue. When I pressed him for further clarification as to what specific claims they were saying were untrue and the, you know, the basis of why they thought they were untrue. They didn't offer any more specifics. So that has been, you know, the broad response from Saudi Arabia. The Ethiopian government has said that they will launch an investigation with Saudi authorities into the abuses, but we haven't yet seen any details on what that investigation might entail or whether it is indeed going forward.

[Joey Shea]

And has this report been mentioned? I know the UN General assembly has met after the report came out. Has the report come up in any international conversations around Saudi Arabia?

[Caroline Cornett]

We are hoping that it will. You know, so far there has been some media statements from individual countries expressing concern, but we are hoping that the response going forward will be more robust than it than it has been.

[Joey Shea]

So now kind of pivoting the conversation just towards the response to the report. Has the United States government made any statements about it? Like what countries specifically that you mentioned have talked about this?

[Caroline Cornett]

So we are calling for an independent UN backed investigation into the crimes and violations that we have documented in this report. And we are hoping that the US and other Western allies will publicly support this investigation and support it in various forums, like the Human Rights Council, for example. The Human Rights Council session right now is ongoing, so we don't yet know if that investigation will be supported by the Human Rights Council. But we are indeed hoping.

[Joey Shea]

And what would it take for the UN to open up an investigation? Would it just be a general vote or would be a vote at the Human Rights Council?

[Caroline Cornett]

So there's different forums throughout the UN in which this kind of investigation could be sort of housed. The natural forum, we feel, is the Human Rights Council and there would need to be a resolution. And so we are, we're, you know, pushing states to support that investigation at the Human Rights Council.

[Joey Shea]

So then you're seeking obviously an international response. And it seems like the United States government has thus far not addressed it publicly. How has the United States response to, or lack of response to this report kind of fit within how the Biden administration has been treating the Saudi Arabian government since taking office in 2021.

[Caroline Cornett]

So as we all know, during the campaign trail, President Biden took a pretty hard stance on Saudi Arabia and promised that he would make Saudi Arabia into a pariah. And unfortunately, since becoming President, we have not seen the follow up from those promises. Unfortunately, we have failed to see any accountability for the Crown Prince's role, Mohammed bin Salman in the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. We have also seen a sort of failure of accountability in the context of the war in Yemen. Two years ago, the Group of Eminent Experts, which was an independent body as part of the Human Rights Council, was overturned after a successful lobbying effort by the Saudi and UAE governments. So, yeah, we've seen on a number of files that Saudi Arabia has wriggled its way out of accountability on a number of crimes. And we had hopes that the US Would be a leader in helping to center human rights issues in their relationship with Saudi Arabia. But unfortunately that hasn't been the case.

[Joey Shea]

There are some people who might say that it's not the United States or President Biden's responsibility to hold other countries accountable. It's not in our, you know, either national security interest or just like economic interest. Saudi Arabia is obviously a partner for the United States in the Middle east against countries like Iran. And we rely on them for oil, especially given the Russia, Ukrainian war that has kind of decreased the oil and natural gas supply globally. So can you address that perspective of how the United States should be treating and working with Saudi Arabia?

[Caroline Cornett]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the US And Saudi, Saudi Arabia have for decades had a strong security and economic relationship. The US Is a major arms supplier to Saudi Arabia. We also know that the United States has supported and trained Saudi border guards in particular. So for example, and as well, US Military personnel are embedded significantly throughout the Saudi security system as well. And we're hoping that these types of engagements should be a matter of public record and congressional oversight. So I think that the US Needs to recognize that this strong security and economic relationship, you know, has, has a role to play in the abuses that MBS and his, the authorities underneath him have been committing.

[Joey Shea]

In the report, did it have any concrete recommendations for the United States on addressing this with Saudi Arabia?

[Caroline Cornett]

Yeah. So I think that, you know, number one, we are calling for an investigation, as I said, an independent investigation into the crimes committ. We also feel that any investigation that Saudi says that it is launching itself to investigate these abuses, you know, is completely, completely lacks credibility. And the US should under no circumstances support such an initiative that allows Saudi Arabia to investigate itself.

[Anna Hickey]

You were made for going the extra mile for your pet and Fara Pets was made to do the same. Fara Pets supplements are vet created with innovative ingredients that combine eastern and western therapy so your pet can thrive. After all, you would do anything to help your pet feel their best. And so would we. Visit farapets.com pod to get 20% off today. That's F-E-R-A pets.com P O- Farah pets. We were made for this. My husband and I recently realized that neither of us were getting the sleep we deserved. So we sat down and talked about our ideal beds. For him, soft as feathers. For me, firm as a plank. This would be a huge issue if it weren't for the sleep number Smart bed. Thankfully, with our new sleep number smart bed, we can each dial in our desired Sleep number settings to our ideal comfort and finally get the sleep we deserve. Plus, the Klymit series feature makes sure our bed stays nice and cool through the warm summer months. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed so you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now it's the Sleep Number Everything Smart Bed Sale Every smart bed and base are on sale during our Memorial Day event. Up to 50% off limited time exclusively at a Sleep number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.

[Trey Farrow]

Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business? Think again. We've generated over 100,000 leads which has converted into over 40,000 sales for our pet insurance policies. My name is Trey Farrow. I am the CEO of Spot Pet Insurance. TikTok Smart Plus AI powered automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimizing creative. If I can advertise on TikTok, you can too. Drive more leads and scale your business today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok@.

[Joey Shea]

And then in regards to the Biden administration's kind of perspective and current relationship with Saudi Arabia and mbs, do you see any changes since Biden took office in 2021 or does it seem to be just continuing that same status quo that spend that 40 years of a relationship?

[Caroline Cornett]

Yeah, unfortunately, as I said, you know, we had high hopes that Biden would follow through on his promises and center human rights in the relationship with Saudi Arabia. And unfortunately that couldn't be farther from what we have seen over the last few years. You know, the notorious fist bump of during his trip last summer, you know, certainly we feel led to an increase in abuses inside of the country. And yeah, just more broadly in Saudi Arabia, particularly under MbS, the abuses have only increased and he's really only become more emboldened over the last few years. Now this isn't, you know, to blame this entirely on the Biden administration. That's of course completely unfair. But you know, I do believe that the absence of accountability and justice for past abuses, you know, has emboldened MBS and Saudi authorities. And then there is a deep need for accountability for these abuses along the Saudi Yemen border and accountability for for historic abuses as well. Because MBS is very young, he's only 38 years old. I think there is every reason to expect that he's going to be in power for many years, if not decades to come. And if the human rights situation in the country has deteriorated so much under such A short period of time in which he's come to power. You know, it's terrifying to think what may be to come in the future. So, yeah, we would hope that the US Would change and center human rights in its relationship to also hope for a Saudi Arabia that respects the rights of its citizens and citizens everywhere.

[Joey Shea]

You mentioned earlier that the United States has security forces training the Saudi border guards. Previously had trained the Saudi border guards and then also embedded in the Saudi armed forces. Is there congressional action, like congressional votes that could be taken regarding the use of United States military men and women in Saudi Arabia, or is that mostly just executive power?

[Caroline Cornett]

Yeah. So just to clarify, for the past eight years, the U.S. army Security Assistance Command has been trading Saudi border guards in a program that concluded in July. And yeah, US Military personnel are also embedded in significantly more roles throughout the Saudi security system than has been previously widely known. And yeah, it's unclear what, if any, congressional oversight there is over this. And so we are calling for that.

[Joey Shea]

And so now to look at, you've mentioned previously that during MBS's rather short time as leader of Saudi Arabia, comparatively to previous leaders, we have seen an increase in human rights violations or abuses. Can you speak to any, like, specific examples? Because when he took charge, I think a lot of people thought of the liberalization of Saudi Arabia. You know, women could drive. So how has that original perspective shifted as he has remained in power?

[Caroline Cornett]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's definitely our position that human rights violations and abuses under MBS have gotten worse to historic degree and appear to continue to be getting worse year by year. So just as an initial example, last August, Salma Al Shihab, who is a Leeds University student, a Saudi citizen who is going to, who is doing her PhD at Leeds University in the UK, she was sentenced to 34 years based off of her Twitter activity, based off of purely her freedom of expression. And at the time, this was an outrageous sentence. It still is to this day. And, you know, we were completely baffled. Unfortunately, this year, nearly a year to the day, we issued another press release statement about a death sentence that was handed out for another individual's Twitter activity, or X, formerly known as Twitter. So Mohamed Al Ghamdi, who is a retired teacher, was sentenced to death based purely off of his Twitter activity. And this again is a significant escalation in the kinds of sentences that are being handed down under MBS. Prior to MBS's rise and appointments as Crown Prince, of course, there were, there was arbitrary detention in Saudi Arabia. You know, the prosecution was certainly a Tool of repression. But never did we see the kinds of sentences that we have seen under MBS that are clearly getting worse by year. You know, also the abuses that we documented along the border, as I said before, we have been documenting abuses along this route since 2014. There have always been violations, you know, usually torture and ill treatment and arbitrary detention. However, we never documented the mass killings of children with explosive weapons until MBS time and power. So, yeah, certainly the narratives of reform are just not accurate. Obviously, MBS has implemented deep social changes. Women can drive. Women are being integrated into the economy much more than they ever were. But at the same time, this has been accompanied by an absolutely astounding level of repression. And as well, on, on women's rights. The women's rights activists who had campaigned for years for the right to drive and for an end to discrimination against women in Saudi Arabia, many of them were rounded up, arbitrarily detained and tortured in prison prior to the end of the driving ban. And as well, so last year, Saudi Arabia issued its personal status law. And again, you know, many of the women who campaigned for years for an end to discrimin against women through the personal status law were not consulted on this law before it was issued. It was not made public. No one was able to comment on it. And Human Rights Watch analyzed the law and we found that the law simply codifies existing discrimination against women.

[Joey Shea]

So since MBS has taken power, you've mentioned that we've seen human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia gets worse and the violations have increased. Does it seem that there's any specific reason for why this has happened? Has the security situation changed in Saudi Arabia, or does it simply seem that the Crown Prince has implemented these changes simply because he is now in charge?

[Caroline Cornett]

So I think this is a crucial question and it is important to sort of recognize the difference between, you know, what are reforms in general writ large and what are human rights reforms? Because MBS has certainly undertaken the former. There are, you know, just as an example, now, movie theaters across Saudi Arabia where prior to him becoming Crown Prince and coming into power, there were none. Women can drive. There is, you know, a concerted effort to integrate women into the economy in a way that did not exist prior to MBS coming to power. So there have certainly, certainly been wide ranging and consequential social reforms in Saudi Arabia. It's absolutely impossible to deny that. But that has also been accompanied by this massive increase in repression that, you know, while Saudi Arabia, you know, never had a stellar record on human rights, really is, is a significant departure from the human rights abuses that we were seeing prior to him coming into power. And to answer this question about sort of what has changed, has the security situation worse or, you know, is there a reason as to why MBS felt that he must undertake such repressive tactics? You know, it's, it's, it's hard to say. The singular factor is mbs, you know, rising to power and seemingly, you know, needing to enact these changes from the top down through him. You know, as we've seen with the women's rights activists who campaign for years for many of the changes that he himself made. They were arrested and detained and then MBS himself made the change to allow women to drive. So I think, yeah, the common denominator in all of this is MBS and his consolidation of political, security and economic power under himself.

[Joey Shea]

And then just to close out the conversation, I wanted to ask about some recent news. It seems that the United States is looking at creating a security agreement with Saudi Arabia, according to news reports since over the fall of 2023. Do you have any comments or perspectives on that, given the ongoing situation that Human Rights Watch reported and has been occurring over the past few years?

[Caroline Cornett]

So Human Rights Watch has made a number of calls to the US over the years of how we feel they should be structuring their relationship with Saudi Arabia. We've called on the US to sanction MBS and other officials at the highest level of Saudi Arabia for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. We have also called for an arms embargo on Saudi Arabia, given the pattern of indiscriminate and disproportionate airstrikes on civilians and civilian objects in Yemen. Now the. These reports of possible U.S. saudi security defense pact are deeply concerning. We have documented weapons being used against migrants at the Saudi Yemeni border, as we talked about earlier. You know, we've also documented weapons, including US Weapons, being used in apparent war crimes in Yemen. And so, you know, an increase in the Saudi US Security relationship given this myriad of war crimes and other possible crimes against humanity is deeply concerning.

[Joey Shea]

Do you have any final comments on the Human Rights Watch report on the treatment Ethiopian migrants at the Saudi Yemen border or on the relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia in general?

[Caroline Cornett]

Yeah, absolutely. In addition to our research about Saudi violations against Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers at the border, we also have been investigating human rights abuses that are facilitated by Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund, the Public Public Investment Fund, and also how the sovereign wealth fund, the pif, has benefited from Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses and the PIF has been making absolutely massive investments in the U.S. economy, you know, in key sectors including technology, media, finance and transportation. And it is deeply concerning, you know, given the extent of Saudi Arabia's abuses and what appears to be, you know, the, the very few limits on the ability of the PIF to invest in key sectors of the American economy. So, yeah, I, I think that this also, you know, requires further scrutiny by US Congress. Senator Blumenthal's Senate Subcommittee on Investigations is currently looking into the deal that was made between the PGA Tour and the public investment fund and the implications for U.S. businesses. And so I think that this is also know MBS's consolidation of economic power via the public investment fund is another area that necessitates increased scrutiny by the US and you know, any other state that is getting the investment from this, from this fund, which to be perfectly honest, is basically everywhere in the world at this point. And yeah, I think it's, you know, deeply concerning that one individual person in MBS has such an immense degree of economic power. So the PIF is an estimated $700 billion and he has a lot of control over how that is spent and to which purposes it is invested towards, combined with an immense amount of political and security power that has been consolidated under his watch as well.

[Joey Shea]

Thank you so much for joining us today and for your comments and insights.

[Caroline Cornett]

Thank you. It's been absolutely wonderful chatting with you today.

[Anna Hickey]

The Lawfare Podcast is produced in cooperation with the Brookings Institution. You can get ad free versions of this and other Lawfare podcasts by becoming a Lawfare material supporter through our website lawfairmedia.org support. You'll also get access to special events and other content available only to our supporters. Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is edited by Jen Patya Howell and your audio engineer for this episode was Jay Venables of Goat Rodeo. Our music is performed by Sophia Yan. As always, thank you for listening.

[Trey Farrow]

Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business? Think again. We've generated over 100,000 leads which has converted into over 40,000 sales for our pet insurance policies. My name is Trey Farrow. I am the CEO of Spot Pet Insurance. TikTok's Smart Plus AI powered automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimizing creative. If I can advertise on TikTok, you can too. Drive more leads and scale your business. Today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads.