The Lawfare Podcast: Human Rights Abuses in Saudi Arabia with Joey Shea

Episode Overview In this archive episode of The Lawfare Podcast, released on May 18, 2025, Caroline Cornett, an intern at Lawfare, revisits a discussion from September 26, 2023. The episode features Anna Hickey, Associate Editor of Communications for Lawfare, engaging with Joey Shea, a researcher from Human Rights Watch (HRW). Their conversation delves into HRW’s report on the systematic abuses of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers at the Saudi Arabia-Yemen border, the international community's response, and the broader human rights landscape under Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS).

Key Topics and Discussions

1. Human Rights Watch Report on Saudi Arabia-Yemen Border Abuses

   Joey Shea begins the conversation by outlining the findings of HRW's August report (04:05). The report exposes severe mistreatment of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers attempting to cross from Yemen into Saudi Arabia. Key atrocities include:

   • Use of Explosive Weapons and Close-Range Shootings: Saudi border guards employed explosive weapons against migrants, including women and children, and shot them at close range (04:18).

   • Systematic and Widespread Violations: The abuses are not isolated incidents but part of a broader, systematic pattern. For instance, HRW documented a horrific case where a migrant was forced to rape another after refusal, leading to the victim's death by Saudi guards (04:31).

   • Historical Context: These abuses have been occurring since 2014, with ongoing issues of arbitrary detention and torture. However, the scale and brutality reported in 2023 mark a significant escalation (04:18).

2. Investigative Approach and Timeline

   The investigation commenced in January 2023 and concluded in June 2023 (05:55). HRW utilized satellite imagery, social media videos, and firsthand testimonies from dozens of Ethiopian migrants to corroborate their findings. Despite continuous receipt of new testimonies, HRW prioritized data collection to focus on analysis and report publication (06:48).

3. Motivations Behind Migration to Saudi Arabia

   Caroline Cornett explains that Ethiopian migrants are driven by multiple factors, primarily economic opportunities. Approximately 750,000 Ethiopian migrants reside in Saudi Arabia, attracted by job prospects. Additionally, many flee ongoing conflicts in Ethiopia, seeking safety and stability (06:59).

4. Response from Saudi, Yemeni, and Ethiopian Governments

   Upon releasing the report, HRW reached out to the Saudi Arabian Human Rights Commission, the Ministry of Interior and Defense, and later the Ethiopian government. However, responses were largely dismissive. Saudi officials labeled the claims as "unfounded and untrue" without providing substantive rebuttals (08:40).

   The Ethiopian government has indicated intentions to investigate the abuses with Saudi authorities, though details remain scarce (08:40).

5. International Community and UN Involvement

   Currently, the report has elicited some media statements from individual countries expressing concern. HRW is advocating for a UN-backed independent investigation, preferably through the Human Rights Council, to ensure impartiality and credibility (10:12, 10:41).

6. United States' Role and Response

   The United States has yet to make any official statements regarding the report. Caroline Cornett criticizes the Biden administration for not following through on campaign promises to hold Saudi Arabia accountable for human rights violations, including the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi (12:13).

   • Security and Economic Ties: The US-Saudi relationship is deeply entrenched, with the US being a major arms supplier and having military personnel embedded within Saudi security systems. Cornett emphasizes that US involvement in training Saudi border guards implicates the US in the ongoing abuses (14:06).

7. Human Rights Under Mohammed bin Salman (MBS)

   Since MBS ascended to power in 2015, there has been a marked deterioration in Saudi Arabia's human rights record:

   • Tyrannical Repression: High-profile cases include the sentencing of Salma Al Shihab to 34 years for Twitter activity (21:07) and Mohamed Al Ghamdi to death for similar online expressions (21:07).

   • Suppression of Activists: Women’s rights activists, despite achieving milestones like the right to drive, have faced arbitrary detention and torture (21:07).

   • Discriminatory Legislation: The recent personal status law codifies existing discrimination against women, disregarding inclusive consultation (21:07).

   Cornett argues that while MBS has introduced certain social reforms, these have been overshadowed by escalating repression and human rights abuses, consolidating his power and silencing dissent (24:25).

8. US Security Agreements and Future Implications

   Recent discussions about a potential US-Saudi security agreement raise alarms given the documented abuses. HRW warns that such an agreement could further empower the Saudi regime and implicate the US in facilitating human rights violations, especially concerning the use of US-supplied weapons in Yemen (27:14).

9. Human Rights Watch's Additional Concerns

   Beyond border abuses, HRW highlights the role of Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund (PIF) in perpetuating human rights violations. The PIF, valued at approximately $700 billion, invests in key sectors of the US economy, raising concerns about economic power being consolidated alongside political and security dominance (28:39).

   • Senate Investigations: Senator Blumenthal's Senate Subcommittee on Investigations is scrutinizing deals between the PGA Tour and the PIF, highlighting the need for greater oversight (28:39).

Notable Quotes

• "If these killings were part of a broader Saudi policy to murder migrants, they would constitute a crime against humanity." — Caroline Cornett (04:31)

• "The US needs to recognize that this strong security and economic relationship has a role to play in the abuses that MBS and the authorities underneath him have been committing." — Caroline Cornett (14:06)

• "The narratives of reform are just not accurate. ... at the same time, this has been accompanied by an absolutely astounding level of repression." — Caroline Cornett (21:07)

• "These reports of possible U.S.-Saudi security defense pact are deeply concerning." — Caroline Cornett (27:14)

Conclusions and Implications

The episode underscores the gravity of human rights abuses perpetrated by Saudi Arabia against Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers, highlighting systemic violence and repression under MBS's leadership. Despite international attention, particularly from organizations like Human Rights Watch, meaningful accountability remains elusive. The United States' continued strategic and economic ties with Saudi Arabia, without addressing these severe human rights concerns, exacerbate the situation, potentially implicating the US in facilitating ongoing atrocities.

Caroline Cornett calls for robust international action, including independent investigations backed by the UN, and increased scrutiny of Saudi Arabia's economic entanglements with the West. The episode serves as a critical examination of the intersection between national security interests and human rights accountability, urging policymakers and global leaders to reassess and realign their engagements with regimes like Saudi Arabia's under MBS.

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