The Lawfare Podcast — Lawfare Archive: Memorializing Babyn Yar after the Russian Invasion of Ukraine
Episode Release Date: December 20, 2025 (original archived episode from July 1, 2022)

Overview

This episode revisits a pivotal conversation hosted by Tyler McBrien on the symbolism and significance of Babyn Yar—a site of Nazi mass murder during the Holocaust—following a Russian missile strike near the Kyiv TV tower at that historic location in early 2022. Guests Linda Kinstler (author and scholar) and Maxim Rochmaniko (architect, Center for Spatial Technologies) explore how war, memory, and historical narrative collide at Babyn Yar, the transformation of memory into digital forensics, and the ongoing struggle to do justice—culturally and legally—to the victims of genocide and present-day violence in Ukraine.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Missile Strike and Its Resonance (03:03–07:44)

• Immediate Impact: Both Maxim and Linda describe visceral, personal responses to the missile strike. Maxim remarks on the proximity, having lived in the area, and the direct relationship between his team's previous digital excavations and the location of the attack.

  "Once I saw dead bodies right next to Babyn Yar... it was so close to home that it couldn't be anything else than this case as the first investigation in this series." – Maxim Rochmaniko, (04:31)

• Symbolism: Linda frames the strike as revealing the irony and perversion of Russian claims to “denazify” Ukraine.

  "It just seemed to me to be this most ironic, most perverse, most kind of straightforward illustration of the ways that history can be manipulated in the present." – Linda Kinstler, (06:39)

2. Babyn Yar as Site and Symbol (07:44–13:50)

• Historical Context: Maxim and Linda outline that Babyn Yar is one of the largest single massacres of Jews during WWII (over 33,000 killed in September 1941), but also a site of continuous erasure and contested memory.

  "It's a vast landscape of ravines... all of this territory was in one way or another weaponized as this mass grave." – Maxim Rochmaniko, (10:15)

• Memory and Memorialization: Linda emphasizes the complexity: the site is both actively memorialized and erased, often reflecting broader state narratives and changes in Ukrainian identity.

  "It's this place that's been erased and destroyed and built upon many, many times. Every time a new memorial went up, it reflected something about the state." – Linda Kinstler, (12:24)

3. The Crime of Negation (13:50–17:47)

• Double Erasure: The concept of “genocide as a crime of negation” is discussed. Not just the act, but efforts to erase the crime itself and its memory.

  "It's this kind of recursive erasure—not only of the crime itself, which erases human life, but also the records of what took place..." – Linda Kinstler, (14:36)

• Soviet Suppression: Both guests explain how post-war Soviet authorities both documented and then suppressed the specific Jewish history at Babyn Yar, including building over the site.

4. Forensic Architecture and Digital Reconstruction (18:08–23:38)

• Investigative Methods: Maxim details the use of digital mapping, 3D modeling, and the integration of photographs, witness testimonies, and topographical data to better understand and reconstruct Babyn Yar.

  "We were building this multi-dimensional model which was increasingly filled with information—not only 3D stuff, but, you know, all kinds of evidence about that particular event." – Maxim Rochmaniko, (20:38)

• Cover-ups and Further Tragedy: The Nazis’ efforts to erase physical evidence (ordering prisoners to exhume and burn bodies), and later Soviet earthworks leading to the Kurenivka mudslide disaster, are highlighted as layers of violence and erasure.

5. Memorialization in Contemporary Ukraine (23:38–27:50)

• Personal and National Memory: Linda shares her personal connection through her family history and reflects on post-Maidan Ukraine’s intensified efforts to come to terms with Babyn Yar’s past, especially amidst striving for a European identity.

• Cultural Critique: The difficulties of creating an adequate, unified memorial, recurring references to Yevgeny Yevtushenko’s poem “No Monument Stands Over Babi Yar,” and ongoing debates about the right way to memorialize.

6. The Invasion’s Impact on Investigation and Narrative-Building (27:50–34:12)

• Shift in Method and Urgency: Maxim and Linda discuss how investigative work on Babyn Yar informed real-time documentation and analysis of current missile strikes and possible war crimes post-invasion.

  "The repertoire of tools that we used for Babyn Yar, which include maps...witness testimonies, all of that is highly useful for us now." – Maxim Rochmaniko, (29:14)

• Collaboration with Forensic Architecture: Both describe how these investigative techniques now feed into joint efforts with Forensic Architecture, supporting both media exposure and legal processes.

  "The tools that we used...was in a big way informed by the work of Forensic Architecture...we established a collaboration..." – Maxim Rochmaniko, (32:19)

7. Future Directions & Double Missions of Their Work (34:12–39:48)

• Scope of Investigations: Maxim outlines three main current projects:

  1. Missile strike at Kyiv TV tower (and broader information/communications war)
  2. The Mariupol Theater bombing (deconstructing war crime narratives)
  3. The wheat crisis and attack on supply chains (echoes of historical famine)

  "There are three major directions... each of them has a twofold aim...collecting evidence for tribunals, and communicating more broadly about what happens in Ukraine." – Maxim Rochmaniko, (36:03)

• Public Communication vs. Legal Evidence: While legal accountability is one goal, creating a truthful, public historical record is equally critical.

8. The Limits of Law and the Power of Narrative (39:48–43:33)

• Limits of Legal Justice: Linda expresses skepticism about the ability of tribunals to fully address the scope of wrongs, emphasizing the need for narrative, literature, and media to fill the gaps where jurisprudence falls short.

  "Where law fails, we look to literature, we look to narrative, we look to media, we look to this kind of consensus about what exactly has unfurled." – Linda Kinstler, (42:25)

• Hope and Realism: While acknowledging “less faith in juridical systems,” Linda underscores the ongoing necessity of documentation and communication for both justice and cultural understanding.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On historical irony:
  “This is exposing everything that is being lost in real time in Ukraine...most ironic, most perverse, most...straightforward illustration of the ways that history can be manipulated in the present.” – Linda Kinstler (06:14–06:44)

• On ongoing erasure:
  “It's kind of rare that you can trace erasure in motion. So it was a real kind of physical instance of the gravity of the crime.” – Linda Kinstler (16:42–16:54)

• On digital forensics:
  “We were building this multi-dimensional model...connected together, those pieces of media were helping us to understand the events at Babyn Yar better.” – Maxim Rochmaniko (20:43–20:56)

• On law and memory:
  “Where law fails, we look to literature, we look to narrative, we look to media, we look to this kind of consensus about what exactly has unfurled.” – Linda Kinstler (42:25–42:36)

Timestamps for Critical Segments

• [03:03] – Maxim explains personal connection and investigative focus after strike.
• [05:26] – Linda on symbolic meaning of the missile attack.
• [08:06] – What Babyn Yar means locally and globally, layers of violence/erasure.
• [14:29] – “Genocide as a crime of negation” — Nazi and Soviet erasure.
• [18:08] – Technological approaches to reconstructing Babyn Yar.
• [23:58] – Linda’s family connection and role of memorials.
• [27:50] – Post-invasion shifts in investigative focus and urgency.
• [32:10] – Role of Forensic Architecture.
• [34:40] – Maxim on three current projects/aims.
• [40:15] – Linda on memory, narrative, and limits of law.

Tone and Language

The discussion is serious, nuanced, and at times personally emotional, blending historical reflection, scholarly analysis, and the weight of ongoing tragedy. There is an undercurrent of frustration at historical negation and a guarded optimism about the power of documentation and narrative to resist erasure.

Conclusion

This episode offers both a deep dive into the history and politics of memory at Babyn Yar and a powerful testament to how investigative techniques, digital forensics, and cultural memory can resist both violence and erasure. The conversation foregrounds the ongoing importance of public record, narrative, and legal accountability in the face of atrocity—both past and present.