Lawfare Archive: Noah Efron on the Awful Quiet of This Moment

Podcast: The Lawfare Podcast
Date: October 11, 2025 (original interview October 10, 2023)
Host: Benjamin Wittes
Guest: Noah Efron (Professor at Bar Ilan University, host of The Promised Podcast)

Episode Overview

This episode revisits a deeply personal and historical moment: the days immediately following the October 7, 2023, Hamas attack on Israel. Recorded within days of the massacre, Benjamin Wittes speaks with Israeli academic and commentator Noah Efron, who reflects in real-time on the scale of the assault, the emerging grief and unity in Israeli society, and the fraught anticipation of Israel’s response. The conversation, punctuated by air raid sirens, explores themes of communal trauma, the complexity of empathy amid violence, and the enduring wounds for both Israeli and Palestinian societies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Personal Account: The Morning of October 7

[06:03 – 15:24]

• Efron recounts being awakened by air raid sirens in Tel Aviv:
  • No sheltered room in his 1930s building, so he and his dog huddled in the stairwell with neighbors.
  • Initially, they believed this was a routine missile event—something not uncommon, usually attributed to Islamic Jihad rather than Hamas.

Quote:
“That's how I found out. And like a lot of people... I figured that it was something that was going to pass almost immediately, an errant missile... but then it became clear... that the extent of this thing was much, much bigger than any of us had imagined.”—Noah Efron [07:50]

• The gradual, horrifying dawning:
  • Initial disbelief, then slow realization as news and terrible videos emerged.
  • Efron’s son, who was in college in the US, immediately booked a flight to return and rejoin his army unit (his flight was delayed due to cancellations, then made it out with the only Israeli airline flying).

Quote:
“What it took for me was to have the image of my own boy wearing a uniform, holding a gun, going into Gaza. And then it began to become, like, desperately serious.”—Noah Efron [10:54]

• Personalization of loss in a small, interconnected society:
  • The pain multiplies as stories of acquaintances and their families lost or harmed emerge rapidly.

2. The Interregnum: “The Awful Quiet”

[15:24 – 19:40; interrupted and resumed after an air raid]

• A surreal pause between atrocities:
  • The sense of living in a suspended, anticipatory moment; a “quiet before the storm” as Israel awaits its response.

Quote:
“As we're trying to grasp that you can already feel coming something that is likely to be even bigger. And at this moment, it's really quiet. And it's really quiet metaphorically, but it's also really quiet literally.”—Noah Efron [16:28]

• Deserted streets, societal stillness usually only seen on national memorial days.
• The air raid interrupts the conversation, grounding the horror in real time.

3. National Unity and Division

[19:40 – 35:47, 45:48 – 55:44]

• The attack followed intense political division over proposed judicial reforms:
  • For ten months, Israeli society was riven by protests.
  • Yet, the horror brought a surge of solidarity.
• Phenomenal outpouring of mutual aid:
  • Across the political spectrum—even ultra-Orthodox and secular leftists.
  • Examples: volunteers ferrying soldiers, packing meals, Eritrean refugees joining in solidarity.

Quote:
“If Israelis have a genius, it’s... for fellowship and a genius for empathy... a wish only to make a very, very broken world a little bit better.”—Noah Efron [28:15]

• But the host notes a countervailing wave of rage and recrimination:
  • Deep frustration at Netanyahu and the government for perceived failings.
  • Comparison to the aftermath of Israel’s 1973 Yom Kippur War in terms of deferred political accountability until after hostilities.

Quote:
“There were things that are about what happened on Saturday that are almost impossible to make sense of... All of us were 100% certain that this was impossible, because how could this possibly happen?”—Noah Efron [47:39]

4. Hostages and the Limits of Empathy in War

[39:59 – 45:48]

• Israel’s unique cultural stance on hostages:
  • Even one captive can dominate national consciousness; now, there are 150+, including children and the elderly.
• Hamas exploits this empathy, threatening reprisals against hostages.
• Tension:
  • Military necessity vs. the agony of risking or losing hostages during operations.
  • Efron anticipates Israelis will trust the IDF’s grim calculus, even if it means many hostages are likely to perish.

Quote:
“Those hostages are mostly going to die in any case. So I think that's how it could happen... and the Israeli populace does not immediately revolt against their own leaders for having brought this disaster. I think... people would come to the conclusion that it was inevitable and nothing could be done to stop it.”—Noah Efron [44:52]

5. Extending Empathy to Palestinians: An Open Wound

[55:44 – 65:11]

• Recognition that Israeli retaliation will kill many Palestinian civilians:
  • Efron is candid about the inevitable loss of innocent lives on both sides.
• A setback for empathy and coexistence:
  • The attack rapidly reawakens atavistic, dehumanizing perceptions toward Palestinians in Israeli society.
  • The legacy of mutual trauma and atrocity will make future reconciliation even harder.

Quote:
“It's inevitable... many, many, many Palestinian civilians are going to have to die... I don't know if that's a price that is worth paying to get rid of Hamas or not... and it makes it that much harder to imagine the moment when each side manages to extend its empathy to, to the other side.”—Noah Efron [59:40]

• Hope remains, at a distance:
  • Efron believes that only mutual recognition of suffering and shared ceremonies of mourning could open a path toward peace.
  • But, “that end point has just been moved that much further by this horrible day and three days that we've had” [63:21].

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the day’s horror (personalized): “Every person, of course, is this universe of... incomprehensible that as many as 20 people were killed on one morning... what it took for me was to have the image of my own boy wearing a uniform, holding a gun, going into Gaza.”
  — Noah Efron [10:37-11:23]

• On sudden societal unity: “Underneath the stratum of our divisions, which is huge... there is some, some straight or stratum of identification, of affinity between people that we just have not seen a sign of for the past 10 months. And then it's everywhere.”
  — Noah Efron [23:45]

• On the ephemeral nature of unity: “Very, very soon after this interregnum, it will be gone entirely... there will be just picture after picture of people who are homeless and worse... people will be judging every move that the army makes... and then this moment will be forgotten.”
  — Noah Efron [30:50]

• On the depth of loss and future empathy: “That's the only way that this thing ends. But that end point has just been moved that much further by this horrible day and three days that we've had... With all the suffering that it's going to bring, that's just going to last for lifetimes that stretch long beyond my own.”
  — Noah Efron [63:21]

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |----------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:03–15:24 | Efron's personal account of October 7 and its immediate aftermath | | 16:28–19:40 | Reflections on the “awful quiet” and what it signals | | 19:40–35:47 | The interregnum: unity, fellowship, and spontaneous aid | | 39:59–45:48 | The hostages’ dilemma and its national resonance | | 45:48–55:44 | Rage, political fallout, and shaken faith in leadership | | 55:44–65:11 | The question of empathy for Palestinians—cycles of trauma, hope for coexistence |

Tone & Language

The tone throughout is urgent, frank, and emotionally raw, with Noah Efron reflecting both personal vulnerability and a sociologist’s breadth of observation. The discussion moves fluidly from personal narrative to societal diagnosis, capturing both the unbearable particularity of suffering and broader questions of identity, blame, and the (im)possibility of reconciliation. Benjamin Wittes’ questions are probing but empathetic, matching the seriousness and gravity of the moment.

Overall Takeaway:
This episode stands as a living document of trauma, solidarity, fear, and fleeting hope in Israeli society on one of its darkest days. Efron’s reflections capture a society suspended between solidarity and division, empathy and rage, with the future clouded by both the inevitability of violence and the distant, difficult possibility of coexistence and healing.