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- [00:01]
Lawfare Host
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- [00:32]
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- [01:59]
Mary Ford
I'm Mary Ford, intern at Lawfare, with an episode for the Lawfare archive for July 20, 2025. Last month, President Trump issued an executive order delaying the deadline for the shutdown of the widely popular video sharing app TikTok in the United States. This is the third extension of the deadline which would keep TikTok running in the US until at least mid September, members of Congress have argued that this extension is unlawful and threatens American national security because of the platform's connections to the Chinese government. Now, with the release of Attorney General Pam Bondi's letters to top American tech companies including Google, Apple, Apple, Amazon and Microsoft, in which she assured companies they, quote, incurred no liability, unquote, for continuing to support TikTok despite a federal ban. The national security risks the platform poses are back in the limelight for today's archive episode I selected an episode from December 28, 2022, in which Amohenya Lotri spoke with Caitlin chin about why TikTok is viewed as a national security threat to the United States, why a ban might not be the best lever to respond to this threat, and more.
- [03:24]
Eugenia Lorzigi
I am Eugenia Lorzigi, Fellow in Technology Policy and Law at Lawfare, and this is the Law Fair podcast December 28, 2022 in the last few weeks, over a dozen US states have banned TikTok from government devices, citing national security concerns. A similar bill was included in the Omnibus spending bill requiring the social media video app to be removed from the devices used by federal agencies. But addressing the concerns over how the Chinese government could Kudcor is TikTok's parent company to get access to American's data raises interesting questions about the existing data protection and privacy frameworks in the US to discuss what is going on, I sat down with Caitlin Chin, a fellow with the Strategic Technologies Program at the center for Strategic and International Studies who has been closely following these developments. We discussed why TikTok is considered a national security threat to the United States, why a ban might not be the right solution to this problem, and her recommendations for what a comprehensive data protection framework should look like. It's the Law Firm podcast Dec. 28 why is everyone banning TikTok?
- [04:52]
Caitlin Chin
There's been a lot of news recently about TikTok, so why don't we just start with kind of a rundown of everything that has been happening in the last few weeks just to situate this conversation.
- [05:04]
Yes, there has been a lot of conversation about TikTok. Many politicians are really scared of the app. Before we get to the happenings of the last few weeks, maybe we could even back up a little bit and just talk about how we got to this point in the first place. TikTok is a relatively new app. It's only been around for a few years, which is really surprising to think about. It took off in the United States around 2018. It became immensely popular, especially among younger people, Gen zers people between the ages of 18 and 24. And it's actually it actually really surprised me to see how well TikTok did against more established competitors like Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat. But in conjunction with TikTok's rise over the last few years, US China relations have also been steadily deteriorating. And I think events like COVID 19 plus concerns about China's treatment of the Uyghur community and the Hong Kong democracy protests really didn't help the situation. So over the past few years, Chinese companies have really been caught up in these geopolitical struggles. And I do think that TikTok has become a large target, in part because it has been so popular. So going back to some of the debates about TikTok, whether or not it poses a national security concern, a lot of the events really started to kick off back in 2020. This is after the COVID 19 pandemic had drastically shifted the lives of many Americans. And Trump, Donald Trump, who was president at the time, actually issued an executive order that would effectively ban TikTok unless it was sold to an American company. Trump evoked emergency and national security powers, but was really extremely vague about what the actual threat was. And then a group of TikTok users actually sued to challenge the order on free expression and free speech concerns. And a judge actually paused Trump's TikTok ban. Fast forward to 2021. Joe Biden won the presidential election and it also filed to pause proceedings for this TikTok ban. And ever since then, the Biden administration and TikTok have been reportedly negotiating an agreement to permit TikTok to continue to operate in the United States under its current, current ownership, but with increased data security measures. And over the past few months, this, these negotiations have reportedly been reaching some sort of close. We haven't seen any final agreement, but there has been increased rhetoric over Whether or not TikTok poses a national security concern and whether this reported agreement between the Biden administration and TikTok will be enough to, to address those. And I would note that this, that these negotiations have dragged out now for, for a couple years now. So there has been a lot of, a lot of debate, a lot of concerns on both sides about how to address TikTok. And that really came to a head over the past few weeks. A handful of states, I think over a dozen, have actually banned TikTok on government issued devices. There's now a push in the NDAA to prohibit TikTok on government devices around the country. In Indiana, the Indiana state Attorney General has actually sued TikTok for deceptive data protection practices. And then most recently in Congress, a group of senators like Marco Rubio, for example, introduced a bill that they have called the Antisocial CCP act that would prohibit social media companies that are based in a handful of countries, including China, Russia, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and maybe a couple of others, from operating within the United States. So there's been a lot going on to answer your question over the past few weeks, but also building up from the past few years as well.
- [09:11]
So that's a great overview. I want to get back to what are the reasons why TikTok is being banned. But before we get to that, I was kind of surprised to see that so much of the recent action surrounds banning TikTok on government devices. It's this, like an actual pressing issue. Are a lot of government employees downloading social media for like their personal use on their work phones or what? What's the problem that these fans are trying to, to tackle?
- [09:42]
You know, that's a good question. I mean, I previously was not aware of an epidemic in the United States where US government employees were constantly using TikTok on their government issued devices. And I think this actually isn't a new concern. In the past, at least some military branches have prohibited military service members from using TikTok on their government devices. But in general, I would imagine that the vast majority of the US government workforce does not need to have TikTok on their government devices and that they do not use TikTok for government work. So it does surprise me that there may even be cases of people using perhaps personal social media apps on their government issued work devices. I would say, though, it is possible that at least some government employees might actually be using TikTok for work purposes. I'm thinking of communications employees, public relations employees, social media employees. And this is especially true since the Biden administration has reached out to TikTok influencers over the past year or two to try to connect with younger Americans. At the height of the COVID 19 pandemic, for example, we saw the Biden administration reach out to TikTok influencers to talk about COVID 19 vaccinations. The Biden administration invited Olivia Rodrigo, who became very popular on TikTok, to the white House. The White House also held meetings with influencers to talk about the inflation Reduction Act. So it is this very interesting dynamic to see on one hand, the White House proactively reaching out to TikTok users and TikTok influencers to try to connect with younger Americans and, and at the same time having these negotiations about whether or not to allow TikTok and under what conditions in the United States operate in the United States.
- [11:38]
So, so now let's go, you know, let, let's get into it. What are these national security concerns that, that we're seeing mentioned in the bans in different speeches? Like there, there seems to be a range of reasons why people want to ban TikTok.
- [11:55]
Yeah, I think that's, that's a really good question. Just pinpointing the actual problem that people are trying to solve. I mean, first of all, TikTok is a hugely popular app in the United States. There are over a million American users. Many of them are between the ages of 18 and 24. And TikTok, just like many other smartphone apps or social media apps, collects an enormous amount of data. We know that TikTok is collecting geolocation information, for example, information about people's contacts, communications information, potentially demographic information. And the concern is, even though, unfortunately, this level of data collection has become standard in the United States because of a severe lack of regulation in the digital platform market, even though this is standard, and even though TikTok is not alone, people are concerned about the fact that TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, is based in China. And because of Chinese surveillance laws that essentially give the Chinese government broad access to personal information processed within Chinese borders, people are concerned that perhaps ByteDance employees in China can access personal information from Americans in the United States, and then, in turn, the Chinese government might be able to access that information. Now, TikTok has said that it has never given information to the Chinese government and that it never would give information to the Chinese government. And we haven't actually seen solid evidence of the Chinese government accessing this information yet. So part of the concerns that we're seeing are potentially hypothetical or based on a future risk of what could happen, rather than actual tangible examples that we've seen in the past. And then there are also concerns about how the Chinese government could potentially use personal information. For example, could the government use personal information to target political dissidents or to censor people, or perhaps to promote disinformation to people based on their race or their gender or other sensitive attributes? So these are. These are the concerns, but like I said, the concerns are a little bit fuzzy just because we don't really have good, solid evidence that the Chinese government has accessed information in this way so far. Yes, we know that the Chinese government has been involved in censorship and surveillance in general, but many of the examples that we've seen have involved companies other than TikTok. So just pinning down the national security concerns behind TikTok, specifically, these are a little bit more broad. They are a little bit more vague, and that makes any ban on TikTok, I think, that much harder to justify.
- [14:47]
So you're talking about kind of different buckets of concerns. We've heard about the potential that the Chinese government could use their algorithm in order to promote influence operations. There's the Collection of data on users. There is access to the software. So what is underpinning this? We've heard FBI Director Wray talk about how what is of concern is that TikTok is controlled by a government that doesn't share American values. What are some of the underlying issues if we haven't seen any clear example of these things happening, what is behind it?
- [15:32]
Yeah, and we have been seeing a lot of that rhetoric. Right. You mentioned FBI Director Christopher Wray saying that TikTok is controlled by this government that doesn't share our values. And then when the antisocial CCP bill was introduced, members of Congress said that, you know, TikTok was a CCP puppet company or even digital fentanyl. That's addicting Americans, you know, comparing TikTok essentially to the Cold War. So I do think that some of this rhetoric is representing or exemplifying this increasingly hawkish attitude towards China, and that's causing some prominent politicians to speak up. It's a very easy talking point, like a very easy target to blame TikTok just because it's a very large company. It's very popular in the United States. And I think it perhaps has been a long time coming just because over the past few years, there has been this severe lack of trust in the US China relationship, and that has been worsened by China's handling of the COVID 19 pandemic and concerns about China's human rights record. But this targeting of TikTok, I do think sort of reflects a lack of understanding toward the problem, or maybe just a broader. Broader geopolitical trust in China in general as opposed to TikTok specifically. If we're concerned about data security or if we're concerned about data privacy, then we should be addressing those issues. I think focusing on TikTok's country of origin. The fact that ByteDance is based in China is only one part of the problem. Even if TikTok were owned by an American company, there's nothing to stop it from collecting the exact same types of personal information that it currently collects. There's nothing to stop it from sharing that personal information with third parties or data brokers that can legally sell that information to Chinese entities. So. So I do think that this focus on TikTok in particular, it's a good talking point, but it's unclear about whether these concerns actually would improve data privacy or data security in the United States writ large.
- [17:48]
I want to dig on that a bit. Is the type of data that TikTok collects particularly different from the type of data that other companies collect?
- [17:58]
In a word, unfortunately, no. And I want to, I do want to acknowledge the fact that TikTok does collect a significant amount of personal information. Many of this information can be used to reveal people, very sensitive aspects of people's lives, including specific people, who people contact, where people are located at any specific point in time. And there's also relatively little transparency. I know TikTok is working with Oracle, it's working with CFIUS to try to increase the amount of transparency into its data privacy practices. But as you know, the average smartphone user, I really have no idea at any specific time, like what exactly what type of personal information TikTok is collecting and who it's sharing it with. We do know that TikTok collects information such as videos, private messages, geolocation, contacts, et cetera. I mean, should TikTok be collecting, processing and sharing this personal information? I mean, no, it should not. I believe that social media platforms should not be collecting information that is not necessary to provide the service. But the problem is, like you identified that this degree of data collection has become standard in the United States. People use their phones for everything, you know, dating, religious activities, school, work, even political activities. The average American, according to one marketing company, uses about 45 mobile apps per device. And many of these apps have built their business models around offering free or low cost services and then monetizing personal information, sharing that personal information with data brokers, with third party advertisers, with marketers. And so the types of personal information that TikTok collects is actually very similar to the types of personal information that many, many other apps and websites collect, including Facebook, Google, and many smaller apps as well. And I would also add that many of these companies are global, so meta Google. All of these companies transfer data across borders. Even if they don't directly transfer information to China, they can transfer information to individuals or companies based in other countries who might in turn transfer that information to entities based in China. So it's a very, very leaky data ecosystem that we have in the United States. Many, many apps are collecting and sharing Data. And in TikTok, unfortunately, is only one point. It's only one small piece of that puzzle.
- [20:35]
You know, one could argue, however, that TikTok is different just because, you know, this. The Chinese government cannot so easily coerce other companies, or so the argument goes. So in, in some ways, the data that these other companies are collecting will be safe from their reach. Is that true? Is, is TikTok the only way for the Chinese government to acquire information about American users?
- [21:06]
That does seem to be the biggest difference between TikTok and companies like Facebook or Google. Even though all of these companies are very large, they collect information from a significant amount of people. We've seen that politicians are concerned about TikTok specifically because of ByteDance's country of origin. But the fact of the matter is, China can collect information in so many different ways, and it has. First of all, even if TikTok were owned by an American company in the United States, it is perfectly legal for TikTok to collect significant amounts of personal information, to share it with third party data brokers, who in turn can legally in the United States, sell or share that information with individuals or entities or foreign governments, including those that might in turn share that information with the Chinese government. So even if companies aren't directly sharing information with the Chinese government, they can share information with other companies, who then in turn can share that information with the government. We've also seen China obtain personal information, potentially from hacking or from data breaches. For example, the Equifax hack that compromised the personal formation of over 100 million Americans is believed to be the responsibility of the Chinese government.
- [22:27]
So.
- [22:28]
So there are many, many ways in which the Chinese government can access personal information. And I would also add that we can look at the example of Grindr. Grindr is a dating app that's primarily geared towards the LGBTQ community. A couple of years ago, CFIUS required Grindr, which was at the time owned by a Chinese company, to be sold and divested to an American company. And there were very valid concerns about Grindr's processing of personal sensitive information. For example, Grindr not only collects information about communications and geolocation information, but it was collecting information about people's HIV status, their most recent testing date, very, very sensitive personal details that could potentially be used in ways that could harm people. But even after Grindr was divested, I think this was back in 2020. And that didn't stop many dating apps, including Grindr, from continuing to collect and share the exact same types of data. And even looking at Grindr's current privacy policy, owned by an American company, Grindr openly admits to collecting personal information, sharing it with third parties, which could potentially include data brokers or marketing partners. And so, even though Grindr is now owned by an American company, it's just not quite clear whether its data privacy, data security practices have significantly improved. And there's also no guarantee that China is not able to access that personal information. So I just think that Grindr is a good example of how Corporate ownership is sort of like a red herring. In a way, it's one factor in a company's organization, but corporate ownership does not necessarily equate to better data practices.
- [24:20]
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Caitlin Chin
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Mary Ford
So.
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- [29:07]
Caitlin Chin
So this is hardly comforting, you know, the way that you're talking about it, it clearly indicates, and I think you wrote a commentary not long ago to this effect, that, you know, this is just a piece of the puzzle. And if you want to get serious about data protection and about privacy, which are all very valid good concerns to have, you know, the. The US Actually needs a more comprehensive approach to this. So what would that look like and how can we get there?
- [29:43]
Yes, first of all, businesses need a legal responsibility to prevent harm to their users and to use personal information in a responsible manner. And in the United States at the moment, privacy laws are very fragmented. We have laws that apply to different sectors or laws in different states, but we don't have a national comprehensive framework for how all businesses, especially I would add mobile apps and data brokers collect and share and use people's information in the first place. So we need boundaries on how all businesses that operate in the United States are allowed to amass, store and share personal information just because as long as, you know, digital platforms are allowed to accumulate all of this like unnecessary sensitive personal information, it will be possible for foreign countries, including China, to access it. We also need limitations on how, on how private companies are able to share that information with third parties. And I would actually suggest starting with the baseline. If personal information is not necessary to be collected, then it shouldn't be collected. If it's not necessary to share personal information, then it shouldn't be shared. For, for example, if I'm using a weather app or a flashlight app or even, even TikTok, maybe TikTok has a reason to collect people's geolocation information for very, for very specific reasons. For example, if I wanted to see a video in my area at that time, but, but it has no. I might expect my geolocation to be collected very temporarily. I would not expect though TikTok to store my geolocation information for long periods of time and then to share it with third parties. So I do think that we need better data minimization practices, better transparency. At the moment, many mobile apps have privacy policies that are very vague. They broadly state we collect and share your personal information with third parties. But as an average smartphone user or social media user, I really have no idea which specific companies or which specific data brokers might have access to this information. So I think that also in addition to requiring better data practices, incorporating better transparency is a really important value. And then third, Americans need more control over their personal information. In the European Union, the EU has a GDPR which allows people to access and request to delete personal information that comes companies hold on them. Incorporating something like that in the United States, across the country, nationwide, would also allow people to choose to increase their data privacy data security take some control over that personal information. So I do think that solutions like this could potentially address some of the core problems which are that we have very few limitations in the United States of how digital platforms are able to use our personal information. So we need better data privacy practices. And just requiring specific companies to either not exist in the United States or be sold to American companies wouldn't necessarily address the core problems of data collection and sharing that we have.
- [33:01]
And to bring this kind of back to TikTok, you mentioned earlier how they have been in negotiations with the Biden administration in order to address some of the national security concerns that we, that we discussed Earlier. So, you know, in the meantime, this has been going on for some time. Have you seen, like, what are the measures, if any, that TikTok has taken to address some of these concerns? How are those playing out?
- [33:30]
Yeah, so earlier this year, actually, TikTok announced something called Project Texas, where they announced a plan to start storing personal information from Americans in U.S. data centers. It announced that it would partner with an American company, Oracle, to limit employee access to personal information stored in the United States. And it also announced that it would allow Oracle to start, even audit, its content moderation and recommendation algorithms, essentially attempting to address some of the concerns over the collection of personal information, potential access by the Chinese government, and how the algorithm, the algorithm chooses to either promote or demote certain pieces of content. TikTok has also hired an American CEO. It's publicly stated that it's increasing its number of US employees. So even outside of its negotiations with the Biden administration, it's been trying to address some of the public concerns and public criticism that it's received. Now, like you mentioned, it's been negotiating an agreement with the DOJ for quite some time. According to media reports, this agreement could potentially compel TikTok to not only store information in the United States, but create a board of security experts that would report to the US Government. It would, it could sever decision making of United States operations from China, essentially putting more distance in between the US TikTok platform and ByteDance of China, and also allow more transparency into its content moderation algorithm. So TikTok has really attempted to address some of the issues. And I do think that if the concerns are data privacy or data security or, or its content recommendation algorithm, addressing those concerns head on makes more sense than simply saying, okay, let's, you know, let's ban TikTok or let's sell TikTok to a US company, but not. Not do anything else to address the stated privacy concerns.
- [35:32]
So you touched there on the other big concern about TikTok, which is the algorithm. Can you explain what that concern is? Where is it stemming from? How could TikTok's algorithm be misused?
- [35:46]
So TikTok's algorithm is actually one of the things that helped it rise to popularity in the United States. It recommends certain pieces of content, videos that it believes that people will like, and it ranks some pieces of content higher or lower. Now, the politicians that are calling for TikTok's ban believe that TikTok is a CCP public company and that TikTok could allow the Chinese government to spread propaganda or disinformation or harmful content through this algorithm. Very unclear whether that has actually happened. We, these politicians have not really presented evidence that the Chinese government has used TikTok in this way. That said, at least at the moment, until these negotiations are potentially finalized, the public does have very little transparency into TikTok's algorithm and how it specifically works. And I do think that there's something to be said for that lack of transparency. Although I would note that many, many tech companies in the United States similarly do not share how their algorithms work. Many companies cite trade secrets, proprietary information to avoid sharing this type of information. So there are concerns about TikTok's algorithm, but just because we don't have all of the information, we don't know whether the Chinese government has actually used this information this way, in this way. We haven't seen evidence of that yet. So again, a lot of these concerns are hypothetical or based on at least some people's perception of what could potentially happen, the Future.
- [37:22]
Is the US the only country worried about TikTok?
- [37:28]
No. So we have seen other countries like India also attempt to ban TikTok. So there are, there have been concerns from other countries. And I would add, though, that TikTok is not the only Chinese company that has been caught up in concerns about Chinese surveillance or Chinese censorship. For example, Huawei is another company that has raised a lot of concerns about potential Chinese surveillance. So, so, no, TikTok is definitely not alone. And I think that with this growing sentiment of distrust, this growing strained relationship between China and many Western countries, especially the United States, will continue to see more companies caught up in this dynamic. I do think that raises a lot of questions, though. For example, if TikTok were to be banned or if TikTok were to be divested, what does that mean for other Chinese companies that want to operate in the United States or that want to operate in other countries? What does this mean even for any non US Company that might want to operate in the United States that also might potentially be storing or sharing information within China? So, so, so the way that TikTok is handled in the United States will have larger implications for not only for future companies that wish to operate in the US but also the state of the US China relationship as a whole.
- [38:54]
So let's say that the US government effectively bans TikTok from the US market, not just government devices, but completely. What does that accomplish?
- [39:08]
So to me, it is very unclear. If the benefits would outweigh the costs, what would it accomplish? Very little in terms of privacy and Security. Like we previously discussed, it doesn't really matter which country of origin TikTok identifies with. In the United States, digital platforms and mobile apps are largely still legally allowed to collect and share all of the information that TikTok is collecting and sharing. Like digital platforms in the United States are not legally required to share how they promote certain pieces of content. They're not legally required to share the details of their algorithms. And also because of section 230 of the Communications Decency act, you know, they also face very little legal liability to remove any false or poor polarizing content that users may upload on their platform. So it's very unclear to me what banning TikTok would actually accomplish, just because even if TikTok is gone, I mean, there are so many apps that are still collecting and sharing this same amount of information, and the Chinese government can still access that data, whether from hacking or from legally purchasing it from US data brokers. So. So a ban of TikTok by itself might not accomplish the goals that politicians are stating. What would accomplish those goals, though, are stronger data privacy and security laws and potentially more transparency into how companies run their algorithms.
- [40:44]
You mentioned costs there. What would be some of the costs if TikTok was banned?
- [40:50]
Yeah, so we've seen a lot of concerns around free expression, antitrust, and even concerns about, you know, a potential fragmentation of the Internet. And I do think it's notable that a lot of this rhetoric that we're seeing around TikTok is coming from more hawkish communities or hawkish individuals and not from privacy in civil liberties groups. In fact, actually, many traditional privacy groups have raised concerns about potential free speech or free expression concerns of banning TikTok. You know, banning TikTok, it also means cutting off communication. People use TikTok to express themselves, to convey dance videos or music or art. And in a democratic country, governments can't just go knocking down or banning speech or companies that they don't necessarily like primarily based on their country of origin. There has to. We have a very strong culture of free speech and free expression in the United States. And if the government is to limit that, there has to be a very strong and a very specific reason why this company is different than others, why this company warrants a specific, not a vague, national security justification that the company shouldn't exist, and that the national security concerns really do trump the free speech justifications. And I would also add there are some competition concerns of either banning or divesting TikTok as well. And I do think that it's not A coincidence that we've seen companies like Meta actually hiring public relations firms to bash TikTok in the media and to, and to spread concerns in that way. And I, in the fact of the matter, is the main beneficiary of both TikTok and now Twitter, honestly including is companies like Meta, because I mean, the social media market is already very difficult to break into. It relies heavily on network effects on data. And I think that first of all, if TikTok were to completely be banned from the United States, that would risk increasing concentration in an already very anti competitive social media market. But if TikTok were to be sold to a US company, any company that buys TikTok will have to be very, very large and very wealthy in the first place. So that does raise questions about what types of companies might want to buy TikTok and why. We did see a couple years ago Oracle and Microsoft expressing some interest to purchasing TikTok, but any transaction would have to be very carefully scrutinized just to make sure it doesn't risk increasing concentration in technology markets that have already been dominated by a couple of firms. And then finally, I would also add that like we mentioned earlier, any ban on TikTok will not happen in isolation. We have to look at, we have to look at this issue in the context of larger strategic and geopolitical interests, not only between the US And China, but the US and the rest of the world. And it is very hard for the United States to tell other countries that policies like data localization is bad and that the Internet should be free flowing and not fractured. If the United States does take similar actions to ban, for example, all social media companies that operate in a handful of countries. The United States has criticized China's Great Firewall to a very large extent due to concerns about censorship and authoritarian government control. And even if China has taken these actions, that does not mean that the United States should necessarily replicate them here. Ironically, the United States has also raised concerns about government surveillance. On our end, governments like the European Union have criticized, have raised concerns about transferring personal information to the United States because the EU is concerned about the US Government being able to access that information. These are very, very familiar concerns. When we talk about the EU in the US the US and China, the way that the United States approaches TikTok, approaches Chinese companies that wish to operate in the United States will be noticed by the rest of the world. It could have potential consequences.
- [45:16]
So are we approaching a splinternet? Is that what you're saying?
- [45:22]
I don't, I mean, I Don't think a splinternet would necessarily be productive. Often walling off personal information is justified using data security or data privacy means. But. But fracturing the Internet does not necessarily improve data security or data privacy. What does help is rules and boundaries and how companies are allowed to use personal information. Simply saying that the United States will not deal with Chinese companies operating within our borders, that might not necessarily help.
- [45:58]
So what's the best place to have these discussions? Right, because if domestic approaches can be very narrow or be in response to specific threats that are unique to the country that is developing the policies, how do you approach kind of more global digital governance without risking the splinternet?
- [46:27]
That's a really great question. I mean, these conversations are happening between, either bilaterally, for example, between the United States, the European Union, or with the forums like the Trade and Technology Council. It's also happening on a larger scale, like with the World Trade Organization. I think Japan pioneered something called the data Free flow with trust framework, which is a model that would essentially allow personal information to flow between countries, allies that trust each other, that guarantee a minimum amount of data privacy and data security measures. I do think that all of those are very good venues to be having those conversations. That said, it is easier for the United States, at least politically, to have these conversations with countries like, you know, Japan or governments like the EU that the United States has already, you know, traditionally allied itself with. It is a much more politically fraught and politically difficult conversation to have with countries like China, where there has been a lot of tension in the US China relationship and where data flows, especially with China's great firewall, it's not going to be an easy or a straightforward conversation to have.
- [47:45]
So I would say since it's almost the end of the year, I will ask you to make a prediction into 2023. Where do you see this conversation going? Do you think that 2023 is the year where you finally see, you know, increased focus on privacy and tackling data brokers? What should we be looking forward to in the new year?
- [48:10]
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I would have loved to see more privacy provisions, for example, in the NDAA or even a, you know, a standalone comprehensive privacy bill passed this year. And I would have also loved to see, you know, many of the senators that came out in favor of banning TikTok, you know, not to name names, put more of an effort into supporting more comprehensive, stronger data privacy measures that have really come a long way this Congress and over the past few years. So predictions for next year Maybe I'll do one prediction and one hope. My hope is that the United States picks up the conversation on what comprehensive, meaningful data privacy protections could look like in the United States that would apply to all companies, including TikTok, and just meaningfully curb the amount of extraneous, unnecessary personal information that's being collected. Limit the amount of time that companies are allowed to store this information and who they share it with. That. That is my hope. I think that comprehensive privacy measures is the number one way to really prevent any leakage of personal information that could potentially harm people, including personal information that potentially end up in the hands of the Chinese government. What is my prediction? I don't know. I think that TikTok is still going to be a major talking point in the new year. This is especially since the Biden administration still hasn't finalized its potential agreement with TikTok. There still is a lot of friction, a lot of tension in the US China relationship. I think that's only going to get worse going forward. And I think that other Chinese companies or other international companies in general, not limited to China, will be cautious about doing business in the United States, whether it's because of concerns that the United States has lower levels of data privacy protections than what is available in their home countries, or because of concerns that maybe the US Government could potentially limit or be antagonistic towards their data privacy practices, just like TikTok. So I, I mean, I would love to see a world that is more privacy protective and a world where people are able to have these constructive dialogues about what free flow of information could look like. But at the moment, many of the trends that we're seeing could potentially signal another way. So, so, so maybe we can have this conversation again in a year and see what happens.
- [50:57]
I'll. I'll hold you to that. So I think that's a great point to. To end on. We'll leave it here for today. Caitlyn, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure.
- [51:07]
Thank you so much for having me.
- [51:12]
Eugenia Lorzigi
The Lawfare podcast is produced in cooperation with the Brookings Institution. You can get an ad free version of this and other Lawfare podcasts by becoming a Lawfare material supporter@patreon.com lawfair. You'll also get access to special events and other content available only to our supporters. Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Look out for our other podcasts, including Rational Security, Chatter, Allies and the Aftermath. Our latest Lawfare Presents podcast series on the government's response to January 6th, check out our written work@lawfareblog.com the podcast is edited by Jen Patya Howell and your audio engineer. This episode was Kara Schillen of Goad Rodeo. Our music is performed by Sophia Yan. As always, thank you for listening.
- [52:20]
Caitlin Chin
Foreign.
- [52:25]
Lawfare Host
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