Lawfare Daily: Corruption, Coverups, and Crisis in Domestic Ukrainian Politics

Summary

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The Lawfare Podcast

Corruption, Coverups, and Crisis in Domestic Ukrainian Politics

Date: May 15, 2026
Host: Anastasia Lopatyna, Ukraine Fellow at Lawfare
Guest: Danilo Mokrik, War Crimes Investigator at the Kuma Independent and blogger on Ukrainian domestic politics

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Episode Overview

This episode examines a sweeping corruption scandal within the Ukrainian government that has directly implicated key members of President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s inner circle. Host Anastasia Lopatyna and guest Danilo Mokrik break down the evolution of the case, the evidence implicating close associates (and possibly the President himself), and the conspicuously muted political and public reaction. The episode delves into the mechanics of corruption in Ukraine, the boundaries of presidential immunity, and the broader impact on Ukrainian governance, especially during wartime.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Scandal’s Origins and Scope

• Originates with the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine’s (NABU/NABOO) November raid uncovering a massive corruption scheme in the state-owned nuclear energy sector.
• Senior officials and close friends of the president—namely Andriy Yermak (former chief of staff), Timur Mindich (business associate and friend), and Oleksii Chernyshov—were implicated.
• Mokrik emphasizes the unprecedented nature of charging individuals so close to the Ukrainian president.
  • “We are talking about three people, the closest people to President Zelensky. Not only his political allies, but his close friends being charged with corruption.” (Danilo Mokrik, 05:19)
• The corruption involved kickback schemes typical of Ukrainian state-owned companies, with illicit profits allegedly funneled into luxury real estate.

2. Details of the Kickback Scheme

• The scheme centered on “Energoatom,” Ukraine's national nuclear energy operator.
• Private suppliers of Energoatom were compelled to pay a 10–20% kickback to retain contracts.
• Notably, Mindich “has no official position—his only leverage is his close relationship with Zelenskyy.” (Mokrik, 09:55)

3. The “Dynasty Cooperative” / Real Estate Laundering

• Four luxury houses near Kyiv allegedly developed for a select group: Zelenskyy, Yermak, Mindich, and Chernyshov.
• Only Yermak has been formally charged (with money laundering, not bribery/theft), as authorities charge what they are “sure they can prove in court.” (Mokrik, 18:21)
• Despite media investigations suggesting the houses are for these men, President Zelenskyy cannot be investigated or charged while in office due to presidential immunity.
  • “In Ukraine, the President has immunity from criminal investigations...NABU doesn’t have jurisdiction over a sitting president.” (Lopatyna & Mokrik, 20:06)

4. Evidence of Presidential Involvement

• Wiretapped transcripts and leaked files reference “Vova”—diminutive for Volodymyr (Zelenskyy)—as one of the homeowners.
• Mindich’s communications and meetings involve Zelenskyy’s chief bodyguard, Maxim Donets, further suggesting close presidential involvement.
  • “She apparently knows about him and his role in this whole process. This leads [us] to believe that President Zelenskyy was, at least through his bodyguard, implicated in all of this.” (Mokrik, 22:12)
• Despite these revelations, Zelenskyy has issued no public statement or denial.

5. Official & Public Response

• Zelenskyy’s approach is described as the standard Ukrainian “keep silent and hope it passes” tactic.
  • “Every time something really, really bad happens that could affect them, they just try to play dead...they do not try to control the narrative.” (Mokrik, 33:35)
• Notably, Ukraine saw widespread protests in 2025 when Zelenskyy attempted to weaken NABU via legislation—a response seen as a defense of democracy amid wartime.
  • "The Ukrainian people, even...now, keep fighting for democracy...and checks and balances." (Mokrik, 36:22)
• No significant calls for Zelenskyy’s removal, impeachment, or protests specifically over the Vova revelations, largely due to the wartime context and need for governmental stability.

6. Democracy, Legitimacy, and Wartime Constraints

• Ukraine’s martial law precludes elections—“no accountability mechanism of voting the president out of office” is available. (Lopatyna, 41:28)
• Zelenskyy is regarded by most legal experts as legitimate under wartime emergency provisions, despite criticism.
• The current dilemma for Ukrainians: balancing the need for stability for national survival against a desire for accountability.

7. Zelenskyy’s Domestic Political Style

• Zelenskyy is described as “double-faced”: a competent international advocate for Ukraine but problematic in domestic governance.
  • “When it comes to internal Ukrainian politics, Zelenskyy is very problematic...” (Mokrik, 03:20/38:46)
• He often disregards constitutional procedures (e.g., unilaterally appointing the prime minister), prefers personal authority, shows animosity toward independent journalists, and aspires toward centralization of power.
  • “He wants to be authoritarian...but lacks the systematic approach...and always gets a pushback from Ukrainian public, civil society, and media.” (Mokrik, 47:14)

8. The “Vova” Conundrum & the International Image

• Despite widespread leaks and investigative reports, Zelenskyy’s popularity hovers at ~60%.
• 40% say they do not trust him—the highest unpopularity rate among major Ukrainian politicians.
• The population prioritizes the country’s survival, tolerating problematic leadership so long as Zelenskyy is seen as effective internationally.
  • “The destiny of the country is more important than the political destiny of Zelenskyy.” (Mokrik, 44:53)

9. What Comes After the War?

• There is a possibility that Zelenskyy himself could be formally investigated and potentially charged once he leaves office and loses immunity.
  • “As of right now, it seems like there is no choice for the National Anti Corruption Bureau not to ultimately implicate President Zelensky in the investigation.” (Mokrik, 52:10)
• Much will depend on the war’s progress and the outcome of the Yermak case in court.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On unprecedented charges:

  • “We are talking about...the closest people to President Zelenskyy...being charged with corruption. This means that it is possible in Ukraine for the closest, the most powerful people...to be charged.” (Mokrik, 05:19)

• On the nature of corruption:

  • “Kickbacks from state-owned companies...maybe it’s the main type of corruption that you get in Ukraine.” (Mokrik, 09:09)

• On Yermak's removal:

  • “It was so...obvious that even a lot of members of parliament from Zelenskyy’s own party were privately calling for Yermak’s dismissal.” (Mokrik, 13:16)

• On the ‘Vova’ evidence:

  • “Vova is mentioned...as the owner of one of the houses...and at one point Mindich meets...Natalia...he says, at 1:00 pm Maxim Donets will come. Maxim Donets is the chief bodyguard of Volodymyr Zelenskyy...She does not ask who that is...she knows about his role...this leads strongly to believe that, well, President Zelenskyy was, at least through his bodyguard, implicated.” (Mokrik, 22:12)

• On lack of accountability:

  • "If you try in any way to remove Zelenskyy from office right now, the danger for the Ukrainian state is existential.” (Mokrik, 38:46)

• On public’s attitude:

  • “Shocking but not surprising...there is not really another top senior official in that circle also named Volodymyr.” (Lopatyna, 33:09)

• On war and political stability:

  • “As long as he does his job as the defender of the country on the international level decently, there would be no calls for him to step down.” (Mokrik, 44:53)

• On postwar investigations:

  • “Once he stops being president and loses his immunity, logically he could be charged too...it could happen exactly at the time of inauguration of the next president.” (Mokrik, 52:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:05] Introduction and scope of the scandal (Lopatyna & Mokrik)
• [05:19] Unprecedented nature of the charges; the presidential inner circle
• [08:16] Details of the kickback scheme and structure
• [13:16] Political dynamics behind Yermak’s dismissal
• [15:51] Money laundering charges and the “dynasty cooperative”
• [20:27] Presidential immunity and investigatory limits
• [22:12] The “Vova” revelation, wiretaps, and bodyguard involvement
• [33:35] Zelenskyy's silence; similarities with previous Ukrainian presidents
• [36:22] The anti-corruption protests and public response
• [41:28] Wartime legal constraints, elections, and legitimacy
• [44:53] Balancing national survival and accountability
• [47:14] Zelenskyy's political style—centralization and attitude toward checks and balances
• [52:10] Postwar prospects for accountability

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Podcast Tone and Language

The conversation is forthright, analytical, and at times, wry. Both speakers maintain a sense of context and realism, especially about the war’s constrictions on politics and accountability. There’s a clear intention to educate listeners (especially international ones) about the nuances—and often paradoxes—of Ukrainian democracy amid existential crisis.

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Recap: Why No Reckoning for Zelenskyy—Yet?

• Wartime legal and political constraints protect and necessitate Zelenskyy’s continued leadership.
• Independent institutions can investigate and charge powerful actors—but not the President while in office.
• The Ukrainian public, while vigilant and reform-minded, prioritize survival and stability, tolerating (for now) deep domestic corruption as the cost of war.
• A political reckoning may well come after the war ends.

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End of summary.

Transcript

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[Daniel Beiman]

Hi, I'm Daniel Beiman, the foreign policy editor of Lawfare. I'm the guy on the Lawfare team who knows nothing about law but still gets to call himself an editor. What makes me proud to work at Lawfare is the way we provide nuanced and, I hope, provocative coverage of complex national security issues and go deep in ways that other news sources do not. From wars overseas to pressures within the United States, the stakes for national security and the rule of law are immense, and understanding these issues is essential. Lawfare is a nonprofit. We always keep our content free and don't have paywalls, and we rely on people like you to keep this work going. I urge you to join our growing Lawfare community, a network of smart, informed people who care about national security just like you. Please go to lawfaremedia.org support and become a material supporter. Just $10 a month or more if you're able, really makes a big difference. If Lawfare is something you rely on, we hope you'll be part of sustaining it.

[Danilo Mokrik]

She apparently knows about him and about his role in this whole and this leads strongly to believe that, well, President Zelenskyy was was, at least through his bodyguard, implicated in all of this.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

It's the Lawfare podcast. My name is Anastasia Lopatyna, Ukraine fellow at Lawfare with Danilo Mokrik, a war crimes investigator at the Kuma Independent and the author of a blog about domestic Ukrainian politics.

[Danilo Mokrik]

You know when it comes to Ukraine, Ukraine's interests in the state of war as a country, he is doing a decent job about it. And we don't know that someone would do it better if he was removed. Okay, we know that there would be instability. But when it comes to internal Ukrainian politics, well, Zelenskyy is very problematic.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

We spoke about the latest corruption saga engulfing the Ukrainian government and why despite so many arrows pointing towards Zelenskyy personally, no one is calling for his removal. We are recording this conversation on Thursday, May 14. And something quite extraordinary happened today. The former chief of staff to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the once notoriously powerful Andriy Ermak, was taken, taken into custody after being charged with money laundering. And those charges come almost six months after Ukraine's Anti Corruption Bureau first searched Yermak's home back in November. And back then the bureau, which we in Ukraine called Nabu, announced that it uncovered a large corruption scheme, mainly in Ukraine's energy sector. And those revelations became an enormous scandal in Ukraine because the scheme implicated senior government officials, including associates of the President. And your Denmark was actually forced to resign as a result of that scandal. And so we're going to talk about all of this today, about the corruption scandal, its recent developments, and also about the overall political environment in Ukraine. But I want to start us off with the beginning of all of this saga back in November. So Danilo, could you just remind us what was the substance of that initial Anti Corruption Bureau's case and why was it such a huge deal in Ukraine, so much so that this case has been called the biggest in Ukraine really in decades.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Well, let me start by saying still that all of this is unprecedented for Ukraine. We are talking about the three people, the closest people to President Zelensky. He's not only his political allies, but his friends, his close friends that are being charged with corruption. We are talking about Andriy Yermak that you mentioned about Timur Mindich and about Oleksii Chernyshev. This is important because this means that it is possible in Ukraine for the closest people, the most powerful people in Ukraine to be charged with corruption. And they are not protected from spending time in jail as Andrew Yermak is set to spend at least this night in jail because no bail has been provided yet for him. It all definitely started last year, last November. Well, officially it started last November when the National Anti Corruption Bureau, they announced that they uncovered a large scale corruption in Ukrainian energy sector. And this scheme, large scale scheme, was apparently led by Timur Mindich, one of the President's closest friends, the person that provided they celebrated their birthdays together. Okay. In 2021, President Zelenskyy celebrated his birthday at Timur Minji's apartment. He was his business associate in Kwartal 95, which is the comedy production enterprise that Zelenskyy headed before. Before becoming president already. This was a shock and it did send shockwaves through the whole Ukraine UK sphere. And it ultimately led and quite quickly to dismissal from office of Andriy Yamak, who for six years seemed all powerful, almighty, and actually was dubbed Vice President by all Ukrainian political journalists. So this is when it all started. But we started hearing rumors about Timuru Minjic's apartment being wired and listened to by the National Anti Corruption Bureau way before, like in summer, I guess, or even in spring. We started getting rumors, well, that he was listened to and that there were a lot of tapes proving that President Zelenskyy's closest people were implicated in large scale corruption.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

And the corruption we're talking about, it's not extremely relevant to our conversation today, but I'll just mention it for the listeners who maybe haven't followed it super closely. It's about this scheme related to a state owned company that controls all of Ukraine's nuclear energy plants. And according to Nabu, this criminal group of which Mindich Zelenskyy's business partner was sort of the ring leader, the leader of this group, they instituted this system of kickbacks where any company that was providing any services to an ergatum to the state owned company had to pay like an extra 10 or 15 or 20% or risk losing the supplier status, which, correct me if I'm wrong, Danila, but it's kind of a very common sort of type of corruption scheme. It's a very common system at state owned companies in Ukraine. So that was the nature of the case. Right.

[Danilo Mokrik]

I am not very familiar with how corruption in different sectors work, let's say in the EU countries or in the U.S. you know, I get some, some investigations here and there, but I don't know what's really typical in other countries. But in Ukraine, this, what you described and what the National Anti Corruption Bureau uncovered in this case is really, really typical. Like those kickbacks from, from, from state companies, from state owned companies is something that maybe it's the main type of corruption that you get in Ukraine.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

And Mindich is not. He doesn't hold any sort of political office. Right. He's just a private citizen who has all of this access, allegedly through his friendship with Zelenskyy.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Right, exactly. And that is one of the most striking things about this whole scheme. That Timur Mindich, he certainly does not hold any official position. All the influence he has is actually provided by his close relationship with President Zelenskyy. Like, officially, he's more or less no one.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

And he wasn't even very well known before all of this. Right. Like, I've heard of him for the first time maybe a few months before Nabu's investigation. Like, he wasn't a very popular figure. Right.

[Danilo Mokrik]

He wasn't one of the key investigative reporters in this story. Mikhail Otkac started talking about mindich exactly in 2021 when this whole story about Zelensky celebrating his birthday, Timor Mindich, was published. But before that, I do not believe that I heard about him either. And I think that when this name appeared for the first time in 2021, I did not even, like, you know, pay a lot of attention to it. Okay, it's his business friend. Okay. It's his business associate. Okay, it's his close friend. So what? You know, it's only, well, now that we learn about the influences, the different influences of this person because his, his. He talked, he met with ministers. It's not that he gave orders to those ministers, but he gave them advice, he helped them to resolve different issues also related to some degree to this scheme with President Zelensky. On one of the tapes, he actually messages Zelensky during his conversation with then Minister of Energy sector Herman Khalushchenko and reads his response. Volodymyr Zelensky's response. So, yeah, this is how it worked. And at one point he also says that President's chief bodyguard, Maxim Donets, a figure quite popular on TikTok, was about to come to meet him. So obviously this leads us to think that the bodyguard was running some errands for President Zelenskyy too. He was meeting with Mindich on behalf of President Zelenskyy.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

We're going to get to that. Definitely have several questions. I think that may be the most important part of our podcast episode today. But I wanted to ask about your mock. You mentioned, of course, that he was let go as a result of, of these revelations back in November. But why was he forced out if legally back in November he wasn't yet implicated. Right. So Nabu searched his home and he was let go almost immediately after the searches. But why was there this pressure on Zelenskyy to let go of your muck if his name didn't if he himself wasn't charged with any crime yet.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Well, because the way the Ukrainian politics work for the whole of Zelenskyy's term in general, such a large scale scheme would not be possible without at least sanctions from the president's office and from the head of the president's office. Andriy Yamak was Zelenskyy's main manager. He was charged actually with appointing all of the main officials in Ukraine, including the heads of state companies, state owned companies. He was controlling basically the whole state sector. So it was not possible for such a scheme logically, naturally to exist without your mark at least knowing about it and allowing it. And it was so, so obvious that even a lot of members of parliament from Zelenskyy's own party were privately calling for Yermak's dismissal. And the pressure, the political pressure started to grow so quickly and became so intense that it was impossible for Zelenskyy to hold on to your mark. Although it is very typical of Zelenskyy to try to protect his own, his pack as long as he can. Okay. This is something that he does that he always did. And I think that he just did that because he could not try to protect Yermak any longer. It is very common in Ukraine to fire officials, stop officials before they get charged with a crime. Okay. This is something that we see all the time. For some reason they think, the government thinks, Zelensky thinks that if an ex minister is being charged, it is not as grave as an acting minister being charged. In his mind. In their minds, an ex head of presidential office being charged is somehow less shocking than an actual acting head of presidential office being charged.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

So let's talk about your mock's charges. He was charged with money laundering and basically the charges are that he was laundering millions of dollars. I think It's. It's nearly $4 million to build this luxury compound kind of thing near Kyiv. So can you just explain the nature of the charges?

[Danilo Mokrik]

So the story is, the main story here is about four houses, a compound of four houses being built near Kiev. And it is assumed that those houses should belong to President Zelensky, Andriy Mok Oleksi Chernyshov and Timur Mindich. The four of them are supposed to be neighbors in that sense.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

And you say assumed because there was a number of media investigations by our colleagues.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Yes, there was that.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Alleging that.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Well, it kind of transpires from all those tapes that we heard from the official tapes published by the National Anti Corruption Bureau, but also by some parts of those tapes leaked to investigative journalists that seem to be true and real tapes they do check out with the rest of them. So Yermak is not being charged with being part of the corruption scheme himself. So he is not being charged with, let's say stealing money or getting bribes. He is charged with being one of the facilitators that allowed laundering of that corrupt money in the process of building of those four houses. Of his house. This is basically the story. He's charged with money laundering, not with, you know, with the original crime, but with the follow up crime, let's say.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Right. But the money that he is allegedly, he was allegedly helping to launder, at least a portion of that has probably come from state owned, most of that companies. Right? Yeah. Okay, so it's, you know, stealing, basically stealing taxpayers money.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Yeah, but he is not being charged with that. He's not being charged with stealing, he's charged with money laundering. This is important because you know, there is, there are things that the National Anti Corruption Bureau and the, the Special Anti Corruption Prosecutor's Office believe that they can prove and they lead with that. So they are not charging them with something that they think may fall apart in a court of law. They think that this part of their investigation is solid. So they lead with that, they focus on that.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Right. So it's not that they're saying he wasn't stealing the money. They're saying right now we can't prove that he was.

[Danilo Mokrik]

And this is, they're saying we can prove this and this is enough.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Yeah. So the four houses that you mentioned, they're known in Ukraine as the dynasty cooperative. And that's also the official name, allegedly, according to the information released by Nabu. So these four friends, Timur Mindych, President Zelensky, Oleksiy Chernyshov, who is a close family friend of Zelenskyy's and also Ukraine's former Deputy Prime Minister, one of the highest ranking officials in the country, and Andrea Ermak. So those four people allegedly, according to Nabu and according to the investigations, were building these four homes.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Let me point out that they, they do not say that President Zelenskyy is implicated.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

You're right, they actually can't say that.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Yeah, they actually say that he is not being investigated. And this is like legally. Right, because in Ukraine the President has immunity from criminal investigations. So he cannot.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Which is standard practice.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Yeah, he cannot be investigated.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

So Nabu doesn't actually have jurisdiction over a sitting president. Yeah, right.

[Danilo Mokrik]

So they are not saying that he is not part of the scheme. They are saying we are not investigating him. And this is like, very important to understand the distinction between the two.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Right. So this leads into my next question, which is the obvious question coming out of all of these recent developments is, well, was President Zelensky aware of all of this? Or also, is he taking part in all of this? And I think, as you've already alluded to, there are kind of several ways of answering that. So from one side, you can say, legally, you know, Zelenskyy has not and cannot be implicated because he has presidential immunity and because Naboo doesn't have jurisdiction over him. So, you know, they just cannot investigate any of his actions right now. But there is another way of looking at that, which is that there has been reporting, pretty strong reporting, suggesting that Zelenskyy was in fact involved in these schemes. And I'm talking about this kind of astonishing leak that happened several weeks ago where a bunch of previously undisclosed case files, files from this exact investigation were leaked to a top Ukrainian media outlet, Uknitska Pravda, and also several opposition lawmakers. And so the files were the transcripts of the conversations that Nabu wiretapped between Mindich and a bunch of his associates. So basically, journalists got hold of like hundreds of pages of these transcribed conversations and started publishing them. And, and so there is a part of those conversations that mentions somebody named Vova, which is a dominion, which is a short for Volodymyr, which is basically what President Zelenskyy goes by among friends and family. And so can you just explain the context in which this mysterious Vova is evoked in the conversations and what do you make of it?

[Danilo Mokrik]

So Vava is mentioned a few times as one of the owners or as the owner of one of the houses in this dynasty compound on those tapes. And there is another episode that well, leads us to strongly suspect that he was well, implicated, that the President was implicated in, in that scheme. At one point, Timur Mindage meets a woman named Natalia. She was mentioned and her identity was uncovered in the recent court proceedings against under Yermak already. So she was charged with, you know, the construction and design of those houses. And when Mindage meets her and starts talking to her about freezing actually the construction because of some problems that they encounter, he says, well, at 1:00pm Maxim Donets will come. Maxim Donets is the chief bodyguard of Volodymyr Zelenskyy. And what is important here is that he does not explain to this woman charged again with the construction and design of those houses. He does not explain who that is, and he does not explain why he'd come. And she does not ask those questions either. So she apparently knows about him and about his role in this whole process. And this leads strongly to believe that, well, President Zelensky was, was at least through his bodyguard, implicated in all of this. Maxim Donets is the same famous bodyguard that you can see near Zelensky almost every time that he goes to any public place. So it is someone who is very close to Zelenskyy as well. And it's hard to imagine, you know, him having free time at 1pm during a walk day just to meet for his own personal reason with Timur Mindage or the. The aforementioned Natalia. So this is, this is something that, that, you know, makes me conclude that, well, they. President Zelensky was at least. At least it was all coordinated with him.

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[Anastasia Lopatyna]

It's worth mentioning that when Naboo charged Earmark just a few days ago, they released a video in their kind of typical, as of recently, Naboo Netflix type fashion, making their case and presenting some of their evidence about the charges against Yermak. And so they released some of those wiretapped conversations that perfectly match the leaked transcripts, suggesting that they are in fact authentic. And so that means that at this point we have several investigations done by credible Ukrainian investigative journalists alleging that the four houses are for these four men, including Zelenskyy. We have these recent leaks where a certain VOVA is evoked. I mean, we should probably say there is not really another top senior official in that circle also named Volodymyr.

[Danilo Mokrik]

I cannot think of one.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

There is not some other obvious vova that you could point to, right? And so at that point what I find really striking is that Zelenskyy actually hasn't said a word about any of this. He hasn't actually denied any of it. He hasn't scapegoated some other vova. He hasn't said that the leaks are, you know, are fake. Like he's just pretending like this isn't happening. Why do you think that is?

[Danilo Mokrik]

That's also very typical of of Ukrainian presidents in General. Okay, like every time, every time something really, really bad happens that could affect them, they just try to play dad, you know, that, that happened to. That was a very characteristic, very characteristic of Petro Poroshenko before Volodymyr Zelensky. It was very much characteristic of Victory Yanukovych and well, to the predecessors too. So this is some kind of usual tactic, usual PR tactic adopted by Ukrainian presidents. Just say nothing. This seems to be very, very misguided actually, because they, they do not control the narrative. They do not try to control the narrative. They hope that it would just all, you know, pass. And it never does. It almost never does. So they, instead of trying to have a word in the narrative, they just let it all flow as it does, and, well, it never leads to good results for them, but they keep repeating the same mistake. But then again, President Zelensky tried last year to influence the investigation by initiating actually the law weakening the National Anti Corruption Bureau and the Special Anti Corruption Prosecutor's Office. The people of Ukraine gathered to protest against that. And those were the most massive protests that we had in Ukraine since the beginning of the full scale invasion.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

And I mean, also the first. Right. Those were also the first protests that we've had.

[Danilo Mokrik]

The first big protest that we had.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Yeah, the first really like country countrywide protests. Is it your understanding that that was in reaction to him getting wind of this investigation?

[Danilo Mokrik]

Well, obviously, like there's no way, there's no way it could be caused by anything else. Already at that time, rumors about his closest friends being investigated were leaking to the Ukrainian media and it was quite widely talked about. So the reason for this attempt was quite obvious. But he did back down after, after those protests. It was basically a slap on the wrist for him and he retreated, which is a good thing. It means that he still, you know, has this instinc of. Of sensing the danger of knowing where.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Where the preservation, in a way.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Yeah, yeah. So that's what that. That's it. That's what he did. But the director of the National Anti Corruption Bureau and the head of the Special Anti Corruption Prosecutor's Office, when they presented the case against Andre Yamak, they started their briefing by thanking the Ukrainian people for what they did last summer, saying that this would all be impossible if those protests didn't happen. I think that this is something that we have to keep in mind that the Ukrainian people, even in the circumstances that we are in now, they keep fighting for democracy, they keep fighting for justice, and they keep fighting for checks and balances in the system of Ukrainian government. And this is something that I think has to be always pointed out and always applauded.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Actually I agree with you. But I do want to ask about the public's reaction to these most recent revelations about not even your max charging, but about the mention of this mysterious vova. So I found it a bit surprising that, you know, it seemed to me like neither the civil society's reaction nor let's say the parliament's reaction has been particularly strong. Like the phrase that comes to mind is like shocking but not surprising. Like, you know, for example, nobody has called for, you know, any sort of removal of Zelenskyy or you know, an impeachment, which is what you would expect in normal times.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Yeah, but we are not in normal times.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Right, right.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Expecting something like that right now is. Well, how would you see it?

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Well, I mean, how do you. My question is how do you see it? Because let's say, you know, if I'm a random American looking at this whole situation, I'm guessing that I would see a president in a massive corruption scandal basically getting away with no accountability. And there are no countrywide protests right now. People are making various comments about how this is a really bad thing, but there is no actual mechanism for doing anything about it at this moment. And so how do you think through

[Danilo Mokrik]

that, what would you want to do about it? I mean, if you try in any way to remove Zelensky from office? Right now the danger for the Ukrainian state is existential. I mean we are still fighting for this country's survival and it is crucial to have at least basic government stability. Well, Zelenskyy's removal would be maybe just, but it also, it also would weaken Ukrainian state to a degree that would make it very vulnerable to attacks, to Russian attacks against it, both military and political. So you know, Zelensky, we are now about to celebrate seven years of Zelenskyy in office. And I remember his debate, his presidential debate with Petro Poroshenko in 2019 when he actually said that we have two Poroshenko's, one of them being patriotic, defending Ukraine on international stage and another one being corrupt. And this is something we can easily say about Zelenskyy right now. So he is a double faced president right now when it comes to defending Ukraine on the international level, he does that quite well. So you know, when it comes to Ukraine's interests in the state of war as a country, he is doing a decent job about it. And we don't know that someone would do it better if he was Removed. Okay, we know that there would be instability, but when it comes to internal Ukrainian politics, well, Zelenskyy is very problematic. And we have to always find a middle way between punishing Zelenskyy, between responding to, to the different, about problematic decision, bad things that he does, but also, on the other hand, between, you know, like, supporting him when it comes to Ukrainian national interests. So it's a tough game to play for Ukrainian people right now. But all in all, I think, well, they do a decent job about it.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

I should also probably mention that, and I've written about this for law fir, but Ukraine cannot hold elections during wartime. Even though there has been some discussions about this in the American media and journalists asking Trump his thoughts about it, the reality is that because of safety concerns and a variety of other issues, including legal issues, Ukraine cannot hold elections during wartime. It's explicitly prohibited under martial law, which is what's in effect right now. And so that's, of course, why the most obvious accountability mechanism of voting the president out of office isn't available.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Well, yeah, and there is, you know, this discussion about President Zelenskyy legitimacy. And I've talked about it to, to like, a dozen of constitutional lawyers and former judges of the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and actual serving judges of the Constitutional Court. And almost all of them, except to, said that, well, he is legitimate. I mean, if there's no way to hold elections right now, he is legitimate and he will be until the martial law is over. Those two others that had a different opinion on it, they do have their arguments, but they also have their own personal reasons to dislike Zelensky. So I have to put a bit of that, a bit of their opinion on that account. But the legal argument of those others who say that Blinsky is legitimate, they are quite compelling, and I will not enter into details, but it does seem solid. So I don't think we should have any discussion about that. None of Ukrainians, well, generally are happy with Zelensky being, you know, a president with an unlimited term. But then again, no Ukrainian is happy with this war being unlimited and having an unlimited term. This is the problem. We are in a way stuck with what we have, both for the Ukrainian legal system and justice system and for the civil society. The main goal is actually to minimize the damage and trying to limit any corruption as much as it can be done in this situation.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Right. Which is why I think it's worth explicitly mentioning that no one of any significance has called, as I've said, for Zelenskyy's removal Even his biggest critics, like people in the opposition, in parliament. It's not like there's no appetite for

[Danilo Mokrik]

his removal because we understand the danger that comes with it.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

Right. And the polls show that the vast majority of the country doesn't support holding elections during war. And also, despite all of the scandals that we've discussed, he's actually surprisingly popular. His rating right now is around 60%, which is kind of crazy if you compare it to the ratings of the American leader or a bunch of other European leaders. And it stayed actually surprisingly high at around 60% on average since 2022.

[Danilo Mokrik]

But the level of unpopularity is also quite high and higher than any other Ukrainian political figure has. So what do you mean unpopularity? Like I do not trust him. The answer I do not trust Zelensky is around 40% and it's higher than any other Ukrainian political figure has. I mean, acting important political figure. So you also have to keep that in mind that if we are talking about that, if you are thinking about that in electoral terms, this is an obstacle that would be quite hard for him to overcome when it comes to elections. So his popularity is, well, limited too. But yeah, the choice here is basically, we understand, well, we, the Ukrainian people, we understand that the destiny of the country is more important than the political destiny of Zelensky. So as long as he does his job as the defender of the country on the international level decently, there would be no calls for him to, to, to step down. If, if we see that, if Ukrainians see that, well, he becomes problematic in that way too. They would maybe call for, for him to step down. Yeah, it's, it's, as I said, it's a very complicated game for, for the people, for the nation to play, especially

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

for a nation that has had so many revolutions and where the civil society in general is very active. You've mentioned that Zelenskyy is kind of a double faced president that, you know, he, I think he's kind of a man of contrast. Right. Like on the other, on the, on one hand he's this, you know, Churchill of our times, the defender of Ukraine, you know, this very popular abroad narrative. But then when it comes to his actual governing at home, the situation is very different. Could you talk a bit more about what kind of president is he? What is his relationship with the cabinet, with the parliament? How would you describe the Ukrainian government as a whole to someone who doesn't really understand the domestic political situation?

[Danilo Mokrik]

Well, Zelenskyy doesn't care too much about what is written in the Ukrainian constitution. Like he thinks that he can do as he likes and pleases. For example, last year, when the prime Minister of Ukraine that we have now, Julius Verdenko, was appointed, the candidate for the prime minister should actually be chosen and suggested by the Ukrainian parliament. And the Ukrainian parliament should actually come to the person and say, well, we want you to be the prime minister. This is how it's written in the Ukrainian constitution. But it was President Zelenskyy who publicly announced that he suggested for Yulia Svorodenko to become prime minister without any decision by the Ukrainian parliament. So this is like grossly unconstitutional. But he doesn't care. And not only he doesn't care, he wants to publicly, he wants to be seen as the main decision maker in Ukraine. So that's why he doesn't, you know, shy away from announcing such a thing publicly. He actually wants it to be announced publicly. He, he couldn't care less about what, you know, parliament wants, about what the, the, the ministers want. He, he is the one in charge. This is the kind of leader that he is domestically. He also dislikes independent journalists quite strongly. Like you can, you can sense it every time that he faces a critical question during a press conference, he becomes aggressive. He sees it as a personal attack. He snaps. He starts being rude to the journalist, et cetera. And there have been attempts by the presidential office to attack independent journalists personally or independent media outlets as institutions. Still today, in 2026, I would say that the Ukrainian independent media are quite vibrant. You can see a lot of independent investigations, including the investigations of corruption in the Ukrainian government and in President Zelensky's entourage. So he wants to be authoritarian, he strives to be authoritarian, but I would say that, you know, he lacks the systematic approach for that to be successful. So he has all the urges of an authoritarian leader, but he lacks the vision to make it a real system. But also, and it's also important, he always gets a pushback from Ukrainian public, from Ukrainian civil society and from Ukrainian media. So Ukrainians never actually just let that happen. To digress a bit, I, I had a discussion with a colleague of mine in 2020 12. It was during the, the, the. It was the best times of President Yanukovych, who was really very pro Russian president and really trying to, to limit any kind of freedom that Ukrainians had. And we had, with this colleague of mine, we had this discussion if there could be another, another Belarus in Ukraine established by Yunukovich. And we talked about that a bit. And he thought for a while and he said, well, you know, no, I don't think that a second Belarus is possible in Ukraine because Ukrainians are just too crazy for that. And I think this is how it works. You mentioned the revolutions that we had. Like Ukrainians never allow authoritarian dreams of presidents to go too far. You know, and that's why we never had, we all only once we had a president that served two terms. We had six presidents and only one of them served two terms and two of them actually never even finished their legal term of five years. So, yeah, that's the kind of people Ukrainians are.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

So what do you think could happen after the war ends and when there is the next presidential election? Do you have your gut feelings about what that could look like and the future of Zelenskyy?

[Danilo Mokrik]

No. Well, it's hard for me to say when it comes to setting a date, a deadline. It is sad that it was said in those court proceedings against Interior Mark. Then he consulted all those clairvoyants and

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

you know, the astrologist magic people.

[Danilo Mokrik]

I did not do that. Yeah, fortune tellers. And I do not do that. So I couldn't tell you. But as of right now, it seems like there is no choice for the National Anti Corruption Bureau not to ultimately implicate President Zelensky or Volodymyr Zelensky in the investigation. And once he stops being president and loses his immunity, logically he could be charged too. Like it, it could happen exactly at the time of integration of the next president. But then again, this is something I'm thinking about right now. We don't know how much time will pass before any of this becomes possible. So we just have to see how the situation develops. We have to see how the case against Andre Yermak holds in a court of law. Because again, the Ukrainian High Anti corruption court is not like somewhere you enter and you lose all hope you can win. And there's been several, several not guilty verdicts and it can happen to 200 year mark. So let's see how that develops. But most importantly, let's see how the war develops. I mean, the Ukrainian statehood is still at stake. If Ukraine loses that like no political fate of no political figure will matter.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

On that note, Danilo, thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure speaking with you.

[Danilo Mokrik]

Thank you for having me.

[Anastasia Lopatyna]

The Lawfare podcast is produced by the Lawfare Institute. If you want to support the show and listen ad free, you can become a Lawfare material [e-mail] support supporters. Also get access to special events and other bonus content. Content we don't share anywhere else. If you enjoy the podcast, please rate and review us wherever you listen. It really does help. And be sure to check out our new other shows including Rational Security, Scaling Laws, Allies, the Aftermath and Escalation. Our latest Lover Presents podcast series about the war in Ukraine. You can also find all of our written [e-mail] the podcast is edited by Janpati. Our theme song is from Alabama Music. As always, thanks for listening.

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