Lawfare Daily: Escalation, Episode One: Chicken Kyiv

Summary

The Lawfare Podcast: Escalation, Episode One: Chicken Kyiv – Detailed Summary

Release Date: April 3, 2025

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Introduction

"The Lawfare Podcast" by The Lawfare Institute delves into critical national security, legal, and policy issues, featuring conversations with experts and policymakers. In the inaugural episode of the "Escalation" series titled "Chicken Kyiv," hosts Tyler McBrien and Anastasia Lapatina explore the intricate history of U.S.-Ukrainian relations, particularly focusing on pivotal moments that have shaped the current geopolitical landscape.

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Setting the Scene: Bucha and Personal Connections

Anastasia Lapatina opens the episode with a poignant account of being present in Bucha, a suburb near Kyiv, shortly after its liberation from Russian forces in April 2022. She recounts the harrowing scenes of destroyed homes and civilian casualties, highlighting the personal and collective trauma endured by Ukrainians.

[05:16] Anastasia Lapatina: "I stood in a sea of mostly foreign reporters... It was an exhumation of a mass grave. The first of many such sights the Russians would leave behind after occupying Ukrainian towns."

Anastasia emphasizes her deep personal ties to Bucha, having grown up nearby and knowing locals personally affected by the invasion. This background sets the stage for understanding the emotional and historical weight behind Ukraine's struggle for sovereignty.

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Tyler McBrien’s Journey and the Genesis of "Escalation"

Tyler McBrien shares his journey from an American journalist with ancestral ties to Western Ukraine to becoming the managing editor at Lawfare. His personal awakening to the gravity of the Ukrainian plight mirrors the broader Western realization of the conflict's significance.

[06:18] Anastasia Lapatina: "I was covering the war for the Kyiv Independent while also searching for Ukraine's place in American politics. Which led me to Lawfare, to Tyler, and to this podcast."

The collaboration between McBrien and Lapatina aims to dissect the complexities of the U.S.-Ukraine relationship, questioning how historical misunderstandings have culminated in the present-day conflict.

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Historical Context: The Fall of the Soviet Union and U.S. Diplomacy

The episode delves into the critical period of the early 1990s when the Soviet Union was disintegrating. Fiona Hill, a UK-born diplomat and expert on Russian policy, provides an in-depth analysis of President George H.W. Bush's pivotal visit to Kyiv in August 1991.

[12:32] Fiona Hill: "He's infamous for the so-called Chicken Kyiv speech where he actually tries to exhort the Soviet Union to stay together."

President Bush's speech is scrutinized for its perceived neutrality and lack of support for Ukrainian independence, which contrasted sharply with the Ukrainian populace's aspirations.

[16:37] Fiona Hill: "President Gorbachev has achieved astonishing things in his policies of democratization point toward the goals of freedom. And yet freedom is not the same as independence."

The episode highlights the disconnect between U.S. intentions and Ukrainian expectations, leading to lasting tensions in bilateral relations.

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The Aftermath of the Chicken Kyiv Speech and Ukrainian Independence

Following Bush's controversial "Chicken Kyiv" speech, the Soviet Union faced internal strife, culminating in a failed coup attempt. This upheaval accelerated Ukraine's declaration of independence, solidifying its sovereignty with overwhelming public support.

[18:05] Anastasia Lapatina: "The coup fails, but it costs the communist center all of its credibility... The Ukrainian government seizes the moment and to the dismay of Moscow and Washington declares independence from the Soviet Union."

The episode underscores the significance of Ukraine's independence vote and the subsequent global recognition, marking a definitive end to Soviet-era control and reigniting historical tensions with Russia.

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Generational Trauma and the Legacy of Russian Imperialism

Anastasia Lapatina provides a deep dive into the historical grievances rooted in centuries of Russian imperialism, including the devastating Holodomor famine orchestrated by Stalin, which resulted in millions of Ukrainian deaths.

[26:46] Anastasia Lapatina: "The larger problem was Russian imperialism, which, in the case of Ukraine, is hundreds of years old. And that history did not disappear."

This enduring legacy of oppression and cultural suppression has left indelible scars on the Ukrainian national consciousness, influencing contemporary attitudes and resistance against Russian aggression.

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Reflections from Former U.S. Diplomats: The Missed Opportunities

Sarah Sievers, a former Foreign Service Officer stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv, reflects on the U.S. administration's focus on denuclearizing Ukraine post-Soviet collapse. She expresses remorse over the lack of attention to Ukrainian concerns regarding Russian threats.

[36:20] Sarah Sievers: "We did not listen to why they were dragging their feet. They said over and over... that it was only a matter of time before Russia would invade them again and they would lose their country. What they said was exactly what ended up happening. We just didn't listen and we should have."

Sievers critiques the U.S. for prioritizing nuclear disarmament over addressing the existential threats faced by Ukraine, a misstep that has had enduring consequences in the region's stability.

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Current Implications and the Path Forward

The episode culminates in an analysis of how historical missteps and deep-seated mistrust continue to shape U.S.-Ukraine relations. Fiona Hill articulates the complexities of supporting Ukraine's sovereignty without inadvertently escalating tensions with Russia.

[21:54] Fiona Hill: "There wasn't enough of an appreciation... that they were actually dealing with a place which... has a very deep history."

Anastasia and Tyler emphasize the necessity of understanding Ukraine's historical context to inform current policy decisions effectively. They advocate for a nuanced approach that acknowledges past grievances while fostering a resilient and supportive alliance.

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Conclusion

"Chicken Kyiv" serves as a comprehensive exploration of the historical and contemporary factors influencing U.S.-Ukraine relations. By intertwining personal narratives with expert analyses, the episode underscores the importance of historical awareness in shaping effective and empathetic foreign policy. The ongoing dialogue aims to bridge gaps in understanding and promote a collaborative approach to preventing further escalation in the region.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Anastasia Lapatina [05:16]: "It was an exhumation of a mass grave. The first of many such sights the Russians would leave behind after occupying Ukrainian towns."

• Fiona Hill [12:32]: "He's infamous for the so-called Chicken Kyiv speech where he actually tries to exhort the Soviet Union to stay together."

• Fiona Hill [16:37]: "President Gorbachev has achieved astonishing things in his policies of democratization point toward the goals of freedom. And yet freedom is not the same as independence."

• Sarah Sievers [36:20]: "We did not listen... What they said was exactly what ended up happening. We just didn't listen and we should have."

• Fiona Hill [21:54]: "There wasn't enough of an appreciation... that they were actually dealing with a place which... has a very deep history."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "Escalation" provides listeners with a profound understanding of the intricate dynamics between Ukraine and the United States, enriched by personal experiences and expert insights. By tracing the historical trajectory from Ukraine's independence movements to contemporary conflicts, the podcast highlights the critical need for informed and sensitive policy-making in international relations.

Transcript

[Benjamin Wittes]

The following podcast contains advertising to access an ad free version of the Lawfare Podcast Become a material supporter of [e-mail] lawfare that's patreon.com Lawfair also check out Lawfare's other podcast offerings, Rational Security Chatter, Lawfare, no Bull and the Aftermath it's the Lawfare Podcast I'm Benjamin Wittes, Editor in Chief of Lawfare. We've got something different for you today. It's the opening episode of our podcast Escalation, which is currently running on the Lawfare Presents channel. Escalation is a multi part narrative podcast hosted by my colleagues Tyler McBrien and Anastasia Lapatina. It covers the history of US Ukrainian relations from the time of Ukrainian independence through the present. Escalation is presented by Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data removal. Deleteme is trusted by 20% of the Fortune 500 and by federal, state and county courts across the United States. For more information on Delete Me and its services for individuals and businesses, go to joindeleteme.com escalation.

[Scott R. Andersen]

Hey there folks. I'm Scott R. Andersen, senior editor and host of the Rational Security Podcast here at Lawfare. I spend most of my time here at Lawfare on pretty serious stuff. Foreign relations, the use of military force, economic sanctions, that sort of thing. Today, I want to talk to you about something else serious how to keep our work at Lawfare going strong during this incredibly important time. I'm proud of the work we do, providing in depth, nonpartisan analysis of the hard national security questions facing policymakers and the public alike. I was a Lawfare reader and listener long before I became a member of the team, and it's the sort of work I relied on when I was in government and the sort of analysis I need today as I try to make sense of the things happening in the world. But none of it happens for free. Lawfare is a nonprofit. We don't have paywalls. We always keep our content publicly available. We rely on our readers and listeners to keep this work going. So please consider supporting us by heading over to www.lawfordmedia.org support and becoming a supporter. Whether it's $5, $10 or whatever works for you, it makes a real difference. Plus, you'll help us continue to offer all our content for free to everyone. Thanks for listening and for caring about the things that matter. Now back to the show.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

It was a gray, chilly morning in April of 2022, 49 days after Russian forces invaded my country. I was in Bucha, a suburb near Kyiv that that had been liberated from Russia just two weeks prior. This cozy town used to be the go to spot for young families who couldn't afford to live in the capital. But by April, those families were long gone. What remained were their destroyed homes and streets, littered with bodies of civilians who were tortured and killed by the Russian army. On that dark morning in Bucha, I stood in a sea of mostly foreign reporters who were crowding around, chatting, competing over the best angles. Their cameras clicked again and again, taking shots of men in white uniforms pulling bodies out of the ground. It was an exhumation of a mass grave. The first of many such sights the Russians would leave behind after occupying Ukrainian towns. Like all those journalists around me, I was on assignment too. Probably the strangest one of my career. You see, I actually grew up just 10 minutes away from Bucha. I drove through this small, quiet town hundreds of times. I even knew the local doctors who buried those people in in that mass grave. And now the whole world was writing about my home. Eight years after Russia first invaded my country. I wondered, did Bucha need to happen for everyone to finally pay attention? My name is Anastasiya Lopatyna. I'm a Ukrainian journalist. I was in college in Europe when Russia launched its full scale invasion of Ukraine. I packed my bags and two weeks later I was back home telling the world about Russian atrocities.

[Tyler McBrien]

My name is Tyler McBrien. I'm an American journalist covering U.S. foreign policy. And like many of my fellow Americans, I didn't think much about Ukraine. Growing up, my sole connection to the country was my great grandparents who were born in Western Ukraine, which was then under the control of the Russian empire. But they got to Ellis island and never looked back. That was a Jewish story and an American story, not a Ukrainian one. I was born right at the end of the Cold War. I'm just old enough to remember watching the terrorist attacks of 911 on TV. Then I watched the US wage wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. When Russia launched its full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, I was just as shocked as the rest of the Western world. Around that same time, I ended up working as managing editor of Lawfare. That's how I met Nastya.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

I was covering the war for the Kyiv Independent while also searching for Ukraine's place in American politics. Which led me to Lawfare, to Tyler, and to this podcast.

[Tyler McBrien]

We embarked on a journey to answer one. How did we end up here in the middle of the largest land war in Europe since World War II?

[Anastasia Lapatina]

It's a question that Tyler and I have spent the past year asking many dozens of people. Ukrainian and American journalists, diplomats, spies and ambassadors.

[Sarah Sievers]

And my first post was Embassy Kyiv.

[Tyler McBrien]

I'm a permanent representative of Ukraine, Deputy.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia, case officer with the Central Intelligence. I became a defense minister without any experience.

[Tyler McBrien]

They tell us a story of two fundamentally different perspectives.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

To Ukrainians, this war was centuries in the making.

[Tyler McBrien]

My family was tortured, murdered, and robbed by Russians since the very beginning of 20th century.

[Sarah Sievers]

They said that it was only a matter of time before Russia would invade them again.

[Tyler McBrien]

But to the US this war isn't just about Ukraine. It's about preventing nuclear war.

[Fiona Hill]

With that moment, the clock of war began to tick. What if a warning siren sounds? Look for cover.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

The nearest Ukraine has asked for political backing, for money, and most importantly, for weapons to fight Russia back. But American presidents were focused on getting along with Russia. And then with one phone call, Ukraine became a part of an impeachment scandal.

[Fiona Hill]

My call was perfect. The president yesterday of Ukraine said there was no pressure put on him whatsoever.

[Unnamed Speaker]

President Trump has just been impeached on abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

All of this has forged a strange relationship between the United States and Ukraine, one defined by a common enemy, but with disagreements on how to fight it. And you know what is interesting about the war? When you don't want to understand the war from the distance, it comes closer and closer.

[Tyler McBrien]

American foreign policy toward Ukraine and Russia has been guided by our hopes and fears. But have American efforts to avoid escalation created something deadly in its wake?

[Unnamed Speaker]

And the word escalation, everyone just says it.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

This latest escalation, paralyzed because of nuclear escalation fees, Escalation going all the way to nuclear. It's like a code word.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's not about the tens of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers who have lost their lives. I get to be afraid of nuclear war. It's about me.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

From Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This is Escalation, a podcast about the United States and Ukraine. This is episode one, Chicken Kiev.

[Tyler McBrien]

How do we sound? You sound great.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Wait one sec. Okay. Hi. Do I have my water? Yes, I've got my water.

[Tyler McBrien]

Okay. Nastya, I have a very important question that I could easily Google, but I'd rather ask you.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Okay.

[Tyler McBrien]

When is Ukrainian independence? I know it's August. Something I should know this?

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Yeah, you should, but it's August 24th is the Independence Day of Ukraine.

[Tyler McBrien]

August 24th, 1991. This is really when the relationship between the United States and Ukraine begins and the misunderstandings between the two Countries date back to that very beginning. So we wanted to talk to people who lived through this time period. That's how we met Fiona Hill and ostjoy.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Are you sitting in Ukraine right now?

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Yes, I am in Kyiv.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That was great. Well, very nice to be speaking to you. And are the volumes okay? Am I at the right kind of distance away from the mic? Yeah, you're perfect because I have a bit of a sibilant S as you're probably picking up on, but it's.

[Tyler McBrien]

Fiona is a UK born diplomat who's been crafting American policy toward Russia for decades. She started her career in Moscow at the end of the Cold War.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, I finished my master's in Soviet Studies in the June of 1991. You know, basically a degree that's obsolete by December. My graduation ceremony features in fact the Foreign Minister of the Soviet Union and he's getting an honorary degree and looking very perplexed sitting there on the stage, David, like, why am I here? What am I doing here? How did this happen?

[Tyler McBrien]

It's 1991. The Soviet Union is falling apart for many reasons. The planned economy, that corrupt political system, the repression of the republics like Ukraine, it all comes to a head much quicker than anyone had anticipated. By the summer, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia, they all declare independence from the Soviet Union. And now more states are pushing for greater autonomy. Places like Ukraine, which has its own independence movement. US President George H.W. bush is caught off guard by much of this. So on July 30, he heads to Moscow.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

The leader of the Soviet Union is Mikhail Gorbachev and he is in a precarious spot. His popularity is plummeting. He needs to find a way to keep the Soviet states together.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Gorbachev himself is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union and create a new union state.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Gorbachev wants the Soviet republics to sign into a looser union, something like a Soviet Union 2.0 with greater autonomy for each of the states. And he wants Ukraine to be a part of that, come hell or high water. President Bush supports the idea. He tells Gorbachev that it's not in America's interest to see the Soviet Union fall apart. So he gets on a plane to Kyiv to deliver a cautionary message. Here's Fiona Hill again.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He's infamous for the so called Chikhin Kyiv speech where he actually tries to exhort the Soviet Union to stay together.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

The infamous Chikhinkuyev speech, well, it's infamous in Ukraine, but most Americans probably have no idea what I'm talking about. So here's what happened. On August 1, 1991, Bush arrives at Borispil Airport near Kyiv. It's a trip that Gorbachev has been dreading, asking over and over to cancel the visit. The Soviet leader feared that Americans would support Ukraine's independence, so Bush assures Gorbachev that he will not do that. But as Bush's motorcade makes its way downtown, crowds of cheering Ukrainians are waiting for him to do just help them escape the empire. People are holding signs with clear anti Moscow slogans. So there is this stark, almost ironic contrast between what these Ukrainians want Bush to do for them and his actual agenda. Eventually, Bush heads to Ukraine's parliament to give a speech.

[Fiona Hill]

Well, first, thank all of you for that warm welcome. And may I take this opportunity to thank all people of Ukraine.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

President Bush begins his speech by describing the new strange moments of history they're all living through.

[Fiona Hill]

And now the fireworks of superpower confrontation are giving way to the quieter and far more hopeful arts of cooperation. I come here to tell you we support the struggle in this great country for democracy and economic reform.

[Tyler McBrien]

President Bush uses a lot of words in his speech. Cooperation, democracy, reform. But notice the word he does not. Independence. While President Bush is in Kyiv, his mind is on other parts of Eastern Europe. Less than a year earlier, Soviet tanks roamed through the capital of Lithuania to squash its independence movement, killing 14 civilians. And Yugoslavia, another complex communist state, is also in the middle of political violence.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

The fragile peace in Yugoslavia is more fragile than ever.

[Fiona Hill]

The Soviets are visiting, but they have yet to show any clout in this.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Crisis or the will to use it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But the U.S. you know, throughout all of this is actually, I think, thrown on its back foot about thinking about the unraveling of the Soviet Union. It wasn't really expecting it.

[Tyler McBrien]

Fear is top of mind as President Bush speaks to Ukrainian lawmakers in Kyiv. Before his trip, the CIA told President Bush that Ukraine's independence could only come as a result of violence. And you can hear those concerns throughout Bush's speech.

[Fiona Hill]

We will not try to pick winners and losers in political competition between republics or between republics in the center. That is your business. That's not the business of the United States of America. Do not think we can presume to solve your problems for you.

[Tyler McBrien]

President Bush is trying to sound neutral as if he isn't picking a side, but that's not what many Ukrainians hear.

[Fiona Hill]

Some people have urged the United States to choose between supporting President Gorbachev and supporting independence minded leaders throughout the ussr. I consider this a false choice.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

The communists in the Ukrainian parliament are okay with this. They don't mind staying within Gorbachev's reformed union. But many others are furious. Democrats, nationalists, supporters of independence and the general public. They all accuse Bush of being hypnotized by Gorbachev, of basically serving as his messenger.

[Fiona Hill]

President Gorbachev has achieved astonishing things in his policies of democratization point toward the goals of freedom. And yet freedom is not the same as independence. Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred. This has been a wonderful trip, albeit far too short. Short and may I simply say, may God bless the people of Ukraine. Thank you very, very much.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

The speech is very well known in Ukraine. A New York Times columnist later dubs it the Chicken Kyiv speech, writing that Bush lectured Ukrainians against self determination, foolishly placing Washington on the side of Moscow centralism and against the tide of history. That's generally how Ukrainians view the speech too. But in the end, it does little to hold back the tide of history because three weeks later, Communists in Moscow tried to overthrow Gorbachev from power.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Mingling with the rush hour traffic, Red.

[Tyler McBrien]

Army armored personnel carriers on the streets of Moscow this morning, heading to the Kremlin.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

The coup fails, but it costs the communist center all of its credibility. Even the communists in Kyiv lose trust in their incompetent comrades. The Ukrainian government seizes the moment and to the dismay of Moscow and Washington declares independence from the Soviet Union. Three months later, the vote to officially leave the Soviet Union is 92%. The majority of Ukrainians everywhere, even areas with strong Russian influence, support independence.

[Fiona Hill]

This world has a new country tonight, Ukraine. The White House says it is moving toward full diplomatic recognition of the former Soviet republic. Poland, Canada.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Ukraine's independence becomes the final nail in the coffin of the communist project. Before the end of the month, the Soviet hammer and sickle calm down from above the Kremlin. Gorbachev resigns. Here is diplomat and Russia expert Fiona Hill.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Again, everybody's in a kind of a state of now. What do we make of all of this? The Soviet system has gone. The Soviet Union, the prison of peoples, the evil empire has gone.

[Tyler McBrien]

We'll be back after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Hey, escalation listeners. Benjamin Wittes here to tell you that escalation would not be possible without support from DeleteMe. DeleteMe is a digital privacy service. And across this series, we talk to the leaders at Deleteme about their work and how it protects individuals and businesses against threats to their data privacy and safety. I'm here with Reuben Moritz, DeleteMe's head of security. Why should businesses or customers trust Deleteme to protect the data that they're trying to remove from the Internet?

[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Benjamin Wittes]

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[Tyler McBrien]

We're back. After decades of fearing nuclear annihilation, Americans are finally feeling optimistic. Washington is helping Russia and its neighbors build market economies. And the Americans genuinely believe that Russia could become a normal democratic country. Few want to go back in time and reevaluate Russia's violent history because, well, it seems like that dark chapter is finally over. They're anxious about the future, not the past. And that's the problem. Fiona Hill says there's far too much.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, I think, determinism in all of this, of thinking that the problem was communism and the Bolshevik revolution and that if you change the system, everything miraculously changed overnight. There wasn't enough of an appreciation, I think, just in general political settings, that they were actually dealing with a place which, as you just kind of pointed out, has a very deep history.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

She's right. The regional problems were much, much deeper than the communist system that disappeared so quickly. The larger problem was Russian imperialism, which, in the case of Ukraine, is hundreds of years old. And that history did not disappear. Millions of Ukrainians still live with its baggage today, and it continues to derail Ukraine's independence over and over again.

[Tyler McBrien]

What did you do on August 24th?

[Anastasia Lapatina]

I honestly don't remember. Like, I didn't do much. I wore a vashvanka. Vyshovanka is a traditional Ukrainian shirt. It's Kind of customary to wear it on your Independence Day. I'm at my home in Kyiv talking to Tyler, who's at Laufair's office in dc.

[Tyler McBrien]

We're talking about Ukrainian Independence Day and how different it is from my American version.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

It honestly wasn't anything particularly special. My husband was at work. It was kind of an average day, but a little bit like a jush, you know, of like, celebrations.

[Tyler McBrien]

Is that pretty typical? You know, July 4th? Well, maybe, you know, you don't know, but July 4th, you know, people eat hot dogs and go to a baseball game or.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Yeah, usually go on a boat. Things are like, crazy. On a practical level, it's tough because. Can you hear Ava in the background?

[Tyler McBrien]

Yeah, but it sounds great.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

That's our executive producer, Max. He'll be popping in and out throughout the show.

[Tyler McBrien]

Oh, she just celebrated her first or second Independence Day?

[Anastasia Lapatina]

First. First, yeah. My one year old daughter Ava has sat through dozens of these interviews and her first Ukrainian Independence Day was an odd day for a lot of people. It's a very bittersweet celebration right now because, I mean, are we independent? On one hand, you're celebrating Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian history, your national heroes, all of those people who've literally died so that I can have the life that I do. At the same time, it's like, I wish we didn't have all of this baggage. Like, I wish I could just go and eat a hot dog and call it a day. I wish I could just go to the beach and, like, not have all of this historical trauma and this generational trauma hang over me. But unfortunately, we do.

[Tyler McBrien]

It's not just our celebrations of independence that are different. Our stories of independence are drastically different too. The story of Ukraine's independence is centuries long. It has fits and starts. Ukraine gets dominated by Russia and other countries over and over again. It's all very difficult to summarize. So I asked Nastya to help me.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Sort through is very complicated because pretty much for like almost the entirety of Ukrainian history, all of the states and all of the empires around Ukraine were carving up parts of Ukraine and trying to claim that territory. I mean, we can skip all of the part of like Kyivan Rus in the Mongols. Like, you're probably gonna fall asleep if I go down that rabbit hole.

[Tyler McBrien]

I reached for the mouse to log off.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

If you look at Ukraine on a map, you see it sandwiched between Russia and Europe. The vast majority of Ukraine was under Russian control for centuries, but western Ukraine changed hands many times. The key players there were Poland and Austria.

[Tyler McBrien]

Okay, so just to give you an idea of how complicated this history can be, take my great grandparents. They were born in a small town in modern day western Ukraine, but my grandma always told me that they were Polish Jews. So even though their home was in what's now Ukraine, they never considered themselves Ukrainian.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Time and time again, parts of Ukraine were swallowed up by the neighboring empires. And around the 18th century, the vast majority of Ukraine falls under Russian control. And this is a pivotal moment because for decades going forward, Russia will do everything it can to assimilate the local Ukrainian population.

[Tyler McBrien]

Was Ukraine seen as a threat to the Russian empire? Was it seen as a source of resources to extract from? And what was the colonial relationship?

[Anastasia Lapatina]

I mean it was everything. They looked at us as a periphery, right? As their colony, as somebody who was inferior to them, as somebody who wasn't civilized, who needed to be Russified. Because Russia is the source of all greatness and Russia is the, the Russian civilization. Russia is the education, the culture, the religion, etc. So we had to become like them. Take the controversial issue of language for example. A large number of Ukrainians speak Russian. I grew up in a Russian speaking family too. This bilingualism wasn't by choice though. It was the result of Russia's deliberate actions to annihilate the Ukrainian language. Back in the Russian empire, the written Ukrainian was pretty much banned. Which meant that if Ukrainians were trying to get a good job or study in universities, they had to assimilate, ditch their native language. All the power and all the wealth was in Russian hands. So we had to adapt to that.

[Tyler McBrien]

And for the next 80 years, most Americans didn't even see Ukraine on a map. They did see a big red blob called the Soviet Union. What actually happened inside it remained largely unseen.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

And what the Americans didn't see was the same old story of Russian imperialism just under a communist flag. This time the Ukrainian language and culture were repressed again. Millions of Ukrainians died from starvation during an artificial famine organized by Stalin. We call it Holodomor. It's the first Russian genocide of the Ukrainian people. And so when the Cold War ends in the 90s, Ukrainians become independent. With all of this baggage, the generational trauma that pierces through millions of families, including mine. These are the tragic stories that form the statistics and news headlines the world sees today. From Ukraine foreign ABC News, here's further evidence of possible war crimes committed here.

[Scott R. Andersen]

By Vladimir Putin's army.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

They know Russia better than we do.

[Fiona Hill]

It's really unclear what the Ukrainian government can do or what The US Government can do so. Let's talk about all this.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

International warning to Russia to end its invasion is being ignored. Russia defines itself by expansion, doesn't see itself as a great power unless it dominates its neighbor.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Russian troops are moving in on the capital, closing in on Kyiv.

[Tyler McBrien]

Nasseh, you live this every day. You are reporting on it every day. I don't know what's your goal for making a podcast about it, especially one that also is backward looking in terms of the history. I don't know, goal for yourself. A goal for what you hope listeners, American listeners, Ukrainian listeners, anyone will get out of it.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

I mean, my, my number one goal with pretty much everything that I do these days is to make the world understand Ukraine better. But I also for myself wanted to understand Americans better because the relationship that we're going to be uncovering over the next few months, it's very actually bittersweet as well. Just like the independence of Ukraine, actually, there is a lot of gratitude, but there is also a lot of frustrations. And I don't want to be frustrated. I want to be better informed. And I want to understand why it is that for so long Americans just didn't see us for what we were. But how it is that we got to this point in the relationship is very interesting to me. And I don't want to be just a frustrated Ukrainian who doesn't like the US for not seeing the reality that we live in. I want to understand the deeper context.

[Tyler McBrien]

We'll be back after the break.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Support for this podcast comes from Deleteme, the industry leader in personal data protection. Have you ever worried about your personal data being stolen? Or maybe you're concerned about your employees being targeted by spear phishing attacks? At the individual level, you can do a lot to keep yourself protected simply by being more aware of your online actions. Here again is Deleteme's head of security, Ruben Moritz.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Protecting yourself and creating resilience comes from first we're clicking that I agree button or installing that app or extension to look at what data is collected and what you're agreeing to.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Unfortunately, that will only get you so far.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Your blind spot, however, is critical. And that's where privacy tools are key. And that's where Deleteme comes in. You let us know what information you want us to look for out there and we do the rest.

[Benjamin Wittes]

For more information on Deleteme and its services, go to joindeleteme.com escalation and use the code ESCALATION to get 20% off a personal plan. And you can contact them there about a special offer to protect your business too. That's joindeleteme.com escalation code escalation. Now back to the show.

[Tyler McBrien]

We're back. Like many relationships, even good ones, there's tensions between the United States and Ukraine. And there's one source of tension in particular. It's decades old, but it keeps coming up. It's another moment in history that nearly every Ukrainian has an opinion on, yet few Americans even know exists. It's the story of a high stakes backroom deal between the world's superpowers struck just a few years after the Chicken Kiev speech. A deal that is extremely divisive with wildly different interpretations of it, depending on who you ask. And Sarah Sievers watched it happen.

[Sarah Sievers]

I was a foreign service officer, vice consul, and my first post was embassy Kyiv in Ukraine.

[Tyler McBrien]

Sarah watches the beginning of the US Ukraine relationship unfold. She first visits Ukraine in 1991.

[Sarah Sievers]

I have to say I just fell in love and I just had this, just this feeling, you know, sometimes you just get these preternatural feelings that this is where I'm meant to be. So like a little doofus, when I joined the Foreign Service, like six months later, I went around telling everybody, I'm going to Ukraine, I'm going to Ukraine. But I guess I said it enough that eventually they let me go.

[Tyler McBrien]

Sarah speaks just enough Russian to qualify for the job. She gets hired by the State Department as a junior foreign service officer and sent to the new US Embassy in Kyiv. For Sarah, Ukraine's independence is an exciting, even fun time. She is a 22 year old American and her very first job out of college has her helping the Ukrainians write a new constitution.

[Sarah Sievers]

You know, you can't underestimate how exciting it was to be setting up diplomatic relations with a new country, any new country, right? And it's impossible to say how just cool it was to be to be watching that happen and to be kind of hanging around people who were like the founding fathers and mothers of their country. It was very, very fun.

[Tyler McBrien]

But something looms over all this excitement. There's a mushroom cloud sized elephant in the room that needs to be addressed. The Soviet nukes. For decades, the Soviet Union kept huge parts of its nuclear arsenal in surrounding states like Ukraine. And by the early 90s, nuclear weapons and those who have them are shaping every decision on the world stage. American policymakers watched the Cold War end, but their fear of nuclear annihilation didn't go away with the Soviets. If anything, many think the risk is higher than ever, with more states like Ukraine having nukes. So when the USSR collapses, the White House has one denuclearizing Ukraine.

[Sarah Sievers]

That was clearly the overwhelming priority of the US Government. I think if you weren't in the embassy at the time, it's sort of hard to imagine how omnipresent that was. As you know, just everything revolved around that objective.

[Tyler McBrien]

From her post at the US Embassy in Kyiv, Sarah learns the White House is eager to strike a deal. Just like President Bush's Chicken Kyiv speech, this deal is another source of bad blood between the US and Ukraine. Because now, sitting in her home decades later, the idealism that Sarah Sievers brought to the embassy in Kyiv has faded away. It's been replaced with nothing short of guilt.

[Sarah Sievers]

The thing that I think we really missed, and I will be more guilty about this than probably almost anything in my life until the day I die. We did not listen to why they were dragging their feet. They said over and over and over and over again that if they gave up their nuclear weapons, it was only a matter of time before Russia would invade them again and they would lose their country. What they said was exactly what ended up happening. We just didn't listen and we should have.

[Tyler McBrien]

The third largest nuclear arsenal in the world is in Ukraine. What the hell do we do about it? That's next time on Escalation.

[Anastasia Lapatina]

Escalation is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. You can follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on new episodes. And please leave us a rating and review while you're there. Escalation's lead producer is Max Johnston. The show was reported and written by Anastasia Lopatina, Tyler McBrien, Max Johnston and Benjamin Wittes. Executive producers at Lawfair are Benjamin Wittes, Natalie Orpet and Scott Anderson. Executive producers Oat Goad Rodeo are Max Johnston, Ian Enright and Megan Nadolsky. Associate producers are Isabel, Kirby McGowan, Rebecca Seidel, Kara Schillen and Jay Venables. Additional production assistants at Lawfare from Anna Hickey, Patrick Cole and Quinta Jurecik. Sound design, scoring, mixing and engineering from Max Johnston, Ian Enright. And Rebecca Seidel. Our theme is Enigma by Charlie Edwards. Additional music from Blue Dot Sessions and Alibi Music. Our cover art was designed by Marie Kinovich.

[Benjamin Wittes]

Escalation is presented by Delete Me, the industry leader in personal data removal. DeleteMe is trusted by 20% of the Fortune 500 and by federal, state and county courts across the United States. For more information on Delete Me and its services for individuals and businesses, go to joindeleteme.com escalation.